Tanya Berry, PhD: Effective Messaging and Role of Our Feelings

The concept of effective messaging appears straight-forward. A message is delivered, the recipient processes the message and then makes a decision. However, the reality is very different, as we learn in this intriguing interview with Dr. Tanya Berry from the University of Alberta. Our emotional response plays a role and our current level of stress can shift the way in which we process those messages, shifting from a reflective to a more automatic response. We dig into the details in the latest episode!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:07

Welcome to the latest episode of the catalyst health,

Speaker 2: 0:10

This coaching podcast, I'm Bradford Cooper. And I'll be your host. The question on the table today is does messaging matter, do the things we say or the things others say to us about health and wellness affect our engagement? Today's guest Dr. Tanya Berry from the university of Alberta, Canada will begin to help us answer those questions. I had the privilege of meeting Dr. Barry when we both presented at a conference in Munster, Germany about three months ago, Dr. Berry, along with Dr. Chris, Brian, who we had on last week and Dr. Adrian Hauser, who will have on next week represent three of the most intriguing speakers of the entire conference in terms of application to evidence-based health and wellness pursuits, which is what we're all about. Dr. Barry is a tier two Canada research chair in physical activity promotion whose research focuses on physical activity messaging. Her focus is to study the roles of both conscious and, and we'll get into this and automatic cognitive processing of messaging about physical activity and diet with the long-term goal of understanding how best to facilitate positive health behaviors, which is what we're doing here, right? The intriguing part of that is that traditional approaches to changing health behaviors assume that we're all motivated to think about our consequences and reflect on it, but it's been argued. And I think we'll agree with this, that health interventions need improvement, and we've got to target the other areas and automatic decision-making systems are a big part of that. Just to reminder that we're here. If you have any questions about anything wellness coach related, you've probably heard by now that the requirements for the national board certification, it get a lot tougher starting a year from now the fall of 2020. So if you've been on the fence, don't wait, this is a key time it's gonna save you, frankly, a lot of study time coursework and as a result money with the whole process versus waiting until next year. So if you're thinking about it, check it out, email us, we can talk about it, whatever works best for you. The onset of our next fast track is November 9th and 10th in Colorado. And the distance learning option is available. Anytime catalyst coaching institute.com is your website. And again, you can contact us happy to chat about it results@catalystcoachinginstitute.com. Thanks for joining us. Now, let's pick things up with Dr. Tanya Barry discussing our automatic responses to messaging and what it means on this episode of the catalyst, health, and wellness.

Speaker 1: 2:51

What's she podcast Dr.

Speaker 3: 3:00

Barry, thank you for joining us today. You and I originally had the chance to connect in Germany when we were both speaking at the[inaudible] conference, some of your insights on the whole health promotion messaging and the way we respond to that really, really intriguing we'll we'll obviously we'll, we'll dig into those a little bit, but can you give us just an overview of what this all entails to set the table for us?

Speaker 4: 3:23

Yeah. Well, thank you very much for this invitation. Um, and, uh, so at that conference in Germany, um, I was really happy because I was always invited to be part of a symposium that was all around aspect. So basically our, our, our feelings around physical activity and exercise, and I will be probably using physical activity and exercise interchangeably here, but, uh, recognizing that physical activity is just basically any movement that we do. And then exercise is more on that specific plan, uh, activities that we do maybe for our fitness or enjoyment, but, you know, in my head I kind of flipped back and forth, but at any rate, um, I was, uh, part of the symposium that looked at our affective or our feelings around physical activity. And as you said in your intro, my very specific interest is around messaging and how the very vest, uh, really complicated media and messaging world makes people feel about physical activity. And I look at that from kind of our, an automatic level. So what that means is just basically our gut reactions and those gut reactions form over time. So if somebody sees a message around physical activity or exercise, wherever it's coming from, whether it's from a, you know, an NGO, a health promotion agency, all the way to, um, the so-called fitspiration type, uh, type ads, uh they're, you know, people are going to have an emotional response to that. And that's really what I'm interested in. And again, it's at that very automatic level. It's not, we're not taking the time to think about it. It's you can think about it as our gut reaction. So during the symposium, I presented on a couple of different studies that we've had going on. One of them looking at, uh, I'm in Canada and, uh, the, uh, there's a Canadian organization called participation. That's been going since the 1970s and one of their recent campaigns that tried to be quite playful and edgy and looked at people's, uh, automatic emotional responses to that. And the other one I was looking at, um, things that we often see in various forms of media. And that's when people use what we call negations, which are including the word not. So they'll say you don't have to go to the gym. You do not have to go to the gym, which of course the implication that people are trying to get across is that there's many ways to be physically active, but that can actually backfire. And so at that automatic level, you're actually maybe reinforcing the association between gyms and exercise so that people automatically go, Ooh, gyms, I hate gyms. I'm not going to go there for some people, obviously. So that's kind of, you know, my area and what, uh, what I'm interested in as a researcher.

Speaker 3: 6:01

And does that, you said that changes over time. Does it change? Is there any pattern that you're seeing develop with that, or is every single person unique in the individuals? They spend time with the struggles they have in their life, the opportunities, the geographic ability to have a gym across the street versus 20 miles away. What are you seeing in terms of the way that changes over time with the individuals part of your study? Yeah,

Speaker 4: 6:28

It's very much, well, I mean, there's two levels to that. So there's the individual level. So as individuals, we are obviously shaped by our experiences and what we've done through our lives and you know, what to experiences we've had with physical activity or sport. But as you said, those are influenced by the society in which we live the culture in which we live. Is it, you know, your, your immediate family culture, you know, is it something that's, you know, sports grade and physical activity is great, or did you grow up in a family that had other interests and did other things, and then it goes beyond that, you know, what were your school experiences like? And, you know, so it just goes on and on and on. So those experiences form our memories and our memories form our automatic reactions to things. So it's, yeah. So if it's going to take you two buses and, you know, a lot of your disposable income to go be physically active, then you're probably gonna have a negative reaction. And so making, you know, what, what is somebody's current, uh, situation, but also how was that informed by, by where they've come from and who they are

Speaker 3: 7:37

You, I think I know the answer to this, but are you looking at what can help flip that switch? Is that part of what you're trying to dig into?

Speaker 4: 7:46

Yeah, so we, in our, we we're called the physical activity messaging lab up here, but to what we look at really is yeah. How messages are constructed and how those messages influence people. And we do a bunch of different studies. We do very experimental work, um, you know, where we bring in people and do little experiments in the lab, looking at people's automatic reactions, but we also do evaluations of, uh, either not-for-profit or commercial, um, messages and how those influence people. So one example might be right now, we have a study that's looking very specifically at, um, messages that are target women around heart disease. So can physical activity prevent heart disease, or if you already have heart disease, you know, how can you become more physically active in order to, to help your, your situation having, having heart disease? And, you know, what we've found is the women, you know, the, the way messages are currently constructed, we've done, we do qualitative and quantitative research. And on the qualitative side, when we actually ask women, you know, what, what are these messages when you're reading the very specific, um, kind of typical, sorry, the very typical messages that say, you know, find something you love and pick a place and make a plan and do all these various tips. They make, uh, these women who have heart disease feel guilty that makes them feel like they you've created their own disease. You get pushed back saying I've known, you know, you get the stories, you know, the anecdotal stories of, you know, somebody who they know who has been physically active their entire lives and still developed heart disease or died of a heart attack, those sorts of things. Um, and then also the don't stress message was particularly not well-received because as one very eloquent woman said, how do you get rid of the worries? So telling somebody to become more physically active, to do something that they haven't done their entire lives, taking that very, what we would call self-regulatory approach that, you know, make a plan, pick a place, do all those things that we often see in a lot of, particularly the health promotion type messages can make people feel really bad about the, you know, where they are in their lives and whether they've been physically active, uh, over their entire lives. I'm not sure I answered your question.

Speaker 3: 10:07

Oh, no, no, this is intense. So then what is that leading us to, and I, and we'll get into this a little bit more later, but just off the top, a lot of our audience are folks that are involved in the health and wellness industry. They're coaches, they're, they're managing wellness programs at their work. They're participating in those programs, they're on a committee or they're just around friends that they want to help move their lives towards healthier and more active. So are there mistakes that we're making that you're, that are to you obvious because you're engrossed in it, but maybe we don't even realize we're doing it

Speaker 4: 10:41

Well, so this research area, so I'm a, I'm a researcher I'm trained. This is what I do. I live and breathe research. And so we're trained not to overstep the data. So I'm always a little bit hesitant to go, yes, this is what you need to do. Um, because again, we're all individuals. Um, but you know, the history of, you know, examining, evaluating these programs and evaluating messages is, you know, they're really not moving the needle a whole lot. And there's a whole bunch of factors for that. You know, there's a million different reasons why people may or may not be physically active. And so it's gotta be a multi-sectoral approach. So I just want to be clear that messages and the media landscape is one piece of a very complicated puzzle. Um, but when you are creating messages and thinking about the messages, I wonder sometimes if we don't recognize our own biases enough. So I got into this because I have a, I did an undergraduate in psychology and while I was doing an undergraduate, I was a very mediocre, middle distance runner at the university of Victoria. And, uh, you know, so I, and I was basically when I wasn't studying, I was with the track team and the cross country team. And, you know, it was really brought those two things that I love together, you know, this love of learning and psychology and then this sport, and then began to think about, you know, what is it, you know, that's influencing us. And then I started to think, well, you know, I'm in this because I've always been pretty good at sports. I love sports. I was, you know, and I was very, you know, physically active. I've got pretty good physical literacy, and I've got some confidence. I'm not afraid to try things. And so when I'm teaching, you know, at the university and I've got these, you know, big classes of kinesiology students and physical education students, and I always start most of my courses saying, you know, we're in this because we love it. So our biases are, we love it. Why doesn't everybody else love it? So the example that I often try to use when I think about, you know, I really try hard to think about my own biases when I'm talking about it and talking about physical activity and exercise as a form of messaging, of course, um, what is it that I don't like? And what I hate is downhill skiing. It terrified me. I grew up, I went to high school and the Canadian Rockies. I mean, I should, you know, I'm Canadian and I actually love snow. I, I'm not afraid of the cold, but the idea of going downhill on these things strapped to my feet at a great speed and migrate speed is not even remotely fast by any stretch of the imagination, but it absolutely terrifies me. So then I think if that was my only possible option to be physically active, would I engage in it? And the answer is probably not. So if we can think about, you know, somebody who, for whatever reason does not like physical activity there, they haven't had good experiences of it. Um, you know, what are our biases that we're bringing in when we're trying to communicate with people and trying to encourage them and trying to motivate them to be physically active? Are we, you know, making this assumption that we love it? So everybody must love it, or, you know, or what are our biases and what are we bringing into this? So I would say a mistake that's been made in the past by pretty much everybody in the field is this idea. You know, you hear the messages find something that you love to do. Well, that's easier said than done. And it's kind of maybe perhaps a vastly over simplistic message. You know, some people are just not going to love being physically active for whatever reason. So I would say that's perhaps one mistake that people have made in the past. And I continue to make on my wall in my office, I have what's called the cognitive bias codex. So this is all the biases that we hold. This is all at that automatic level. What are things that we do? So the stereotyping that we do, you know, we fill in the gaps, confirmation bias, all these things that we're always doing. And then I have, you know, it's on a whiteboard and I've got all of our brains pointing to it. And then on the other side, what applies to you right now? So always trying to challenge myself to go, okay, what biases am I holding right now? And what am I doing when I'm trying to engage with people? And so what sort of habits, the messaging habits that we've got into, we can have physical activity habits or dietary habits, so we can also have habits. Well, we absolutely do have habits in how we communicate with people and how we talk to people. So what are our habits around that? And can we challenge ourselves to break what might be a bad habit that might be, you know, turning people off or giving the wrong message?

Speaker 3: 15:42

This is so good. So good. All right. So with the physical activity, as you sat, and I think I said, too, we haven't broken the code. It, it it's an issue. It hasn't changed that much, at least not in the positive direction over the last 20, 30 years. Are there findings in your research that provide some hope for us going forward that maybe we will start to figure out how to better relay that message or communicate this concept?

Speaker 4: 16:11

Well, uh, so I would never say that there's one perfect message. So I think that's impossible again, given the wonderful diversity of humanity that, you know, we're all different, we're all coming from different things, but, you know, thinking about things like who it is, you're talking to, whether it's an individual or a group. And then also, I, you know, some of the work that's starting to come out, not certainly not just me, but there's other people, people that were engaged in the symposium that I was with, like Patty Cacus and Ralph brand and, and people who are really looking at that as effective response. I think the affective response, that emotional feelings that we have around physical activity has largely been ignored. We take historically have taken this cognitive approach, you know, let's think about it. Let's take the time to actually think about something, but most of our decisions are not based on taking the time to think about something. So I don't think we've broken the code, but I think there's work. That's being done to really try to understand why some people really dislike physical activity. So I'll give you the example. One of my PhD students is very much interested in, uh, physical activity contexts for people living with obesity. So these are people who do not sit, you know, the stereotypical image of what somebody might think of as an exerciser, and yet they may be perfectly fit and they want to be physically active. And as one, um, participant in one of Maxine's maxims, my PhD student, when a Mexicans, uh, uh, study said, she said, you know, we're, you know, speaking as, um, a person who was trying to be physically active, um, but living in a larger body, she said, you know, we're screwed no matter what we do. You know, if we, you know, people make assumptions based on what somebody looks like and, you know, making assumptions that they're somehow lazy and unmotivated and gluttonous. So they're, you know, they've got these stereotypes being applied to them, but on the other side, they go into a gym or they go into a context where they're trying to be physically active and then, you know, not everybody, but they may, you know, certainly some people mock them for being in those situations. So there's nothing that they can do. So, you know, what is the emotional response that somebody like that is going to have when you say, Oh, just go find something that you love to do. Well, you know, it's going to be really hard and it's going to take a lot of work, um, for that person to feel comfortable and to feel safe, to be in a physical activity context. So I would say that we haven't backed here. Sorry, I'm rambling. Answer to your question. I don't think that we've broken the code and I'm not sure there is a code to be broken. It's more thinking about where people are at and why they're there and, and really thinking about how they feel about something. And, you know, they've got legitimate reasons perhaps for not wanting to be physically active or for not wanting to put themselves in a situation where they're not going to be safe or they're not going to feel comfortable. And then thinking about that rather than the, well, just, you know, put your shoes by the door and then you'll be, you know, motivated to throw them in your bag and go for a run, you know, not everybody is in that space. So what is it, you know, how can we, how can we help those people who have had negative experiences, no matter why those, you know, how those negative experiences happen,

Speaker 3: 19:39

One-on-one when it, when it really comes down to it, if there is a code it's a one, one size fits one coat, it's, everybody's gonna have a little different code.

Speaker 4: 19:49

Yeah. Or, you know, and obviously that's not always, we're not all individuals working with individuals, but if you're creating messages for larger groups, you know, thinking about what really are you trying to get across with that message and what are you trying to say to that particular group of people? So organizations like participation, which is, again, the Canadian organization that's, you know, had the mandate to promote physical activity for, for decades now in Canada, you know, they're, they're, they've got a big challenge ahead in the right, trying to create these messages or mass media campaigns that really speak to a large group of society. And they're not going to reach everybody, but is there something that they can do? Oh, it's taking a positive approach for sure. Guilt is a terrible emotion. So, and, you know, trying to guilt somebody into being physically active or to exercise. I mean, I share your listeners, know that, and I doubt anybody would try to, but you know, you still hear guilt, you know, why don't we try to kill somebody into it? Well, it's not going to work. So, you know, obviously always taking a positive approach, but you know, what can we do? That's positive without being Pollyannish, if that makes sense. So taking a positive approach without saying, Oh, you know, just be, we all love it and it'll be great and it's going to be fantastic. Well, that's probably not the reality for a lot of people. I'm feeling very negative, very negative approach to a positive, trying to tell people to be positive, well, being quite negative about it. Terrible.

Speaker 3: 21:22

Well, and don't the, the, the rambling that you mentioned, that's the fun part of podcasts. We're not stuck in a soundbite. That is part of the reason I started podcasts is I went through all these interviews with radio shows and TV shows, and it was always the same 30 seconds. Same one minute. So that's why this is fun. So feel free to keep rolling. You're doing a great job. So, so for listeners, and this is a majority of our listeners who are involved with wellness, coaching headed that way, or wellness program management, or their committee at work, whatever it might be, any specific suggestions you might encourage them to utilize when they're trying to integrate. And you've talked a little bit about this, but anything you'd like to build on in terms of integrating their messaging, either the one-on-one level or some of the more organizational things that they're involved in doing.

Speaker 4: 22:09

Yeah. So again, that's challenging questions. I all start with, I understand the irony when I say this, but don't use negations do not use the word, not, um, again, because you can be creating automatic associations between concepts. So this is very cognitive psych. This is kind of a deep dive into cognitive psychology here. But, um, as soon as you add in, what's called a negation, which is, you know, we'll use the word, not as an example, it's, it's people have to process that it's a, it's an extra level of process, right? So they'll see the words, exercise and gym, which are commonly associated. You know, again, I'm generalizing here in North American society and English language, obviously, but you know, Canadians Americans w exercise in gym, those words are semantically linked in our brains. We, you know, they go hand in hand. And so when you see them together in a sentence, they're there, the automatic association comes up. So you see the word exercise where Jim comes up or vice versa. When you add in the word not you actually, it takes an extra level of processing, but you've already activated that semantic association between exercise and gym. So you've already strengthened the association. Um, and then you're asking people to do an extra bit of cognitive work, to process the word not. And so when you use these negations and there's work in other areas, um, well, outside of physical activity and exercise, or even health messaging, that's basically looks at these effects, a lot of commercial marketing, uh, research on this, you know, the, the, the impact of using these negations. So I would say, you know, that research again is just starting in its infancy, but for now I'd be pretty cautious and say, don't use word not. Um, and, uh, yeah. And, um, I also doubt, you know, as I've said, telling someone who doesn't like being active to find something you love, it's not going to be very effective. Um, so thinking about if you have the resources, if somebody has the resources, and if you're doing a kind of a larger campaign doing formative evaluations, so that's that pre evaluation that often gets lost, partly, you know, people are working on tight budgets, um, but you know, just really pre-testing your messages and finding out. And then if you're working individually, you know, really working through your own biases, but trying to put yourself in that other person's shoes and thinking about what biases are they bringing into this, because we've all got these biases, these heuristics, um, that, uh, that we default to. So, um, Daniel Conaman was a, he's a Nobel Laureate in economics, but he's a psychologist. So he wrote a great book, you know, for the, for the masses in 2011 called thinking fast and slow. And that's kind of the heart of this idea. Yeah, exactly. It's as hard as this, you know, automatic thinking, but he's got a great, um, I, you know, line in there, um, about how familiarity can be mistaken for truth. So the more familiar something is to us, the more we just, it's a heuristic, it's a cognitive shortcut where we just go, I know about that. Therefore it must be true. So then, you know, what are we familiar with and what are we putting into our messages and how are we communicating with some buddy that, you know, not just at the factual level, but at the emotional level that we assume is true, but it might not be as familiar and it might not be as true for, for the person to whom you're talking and trying to, uh, trying to, um, communicate with.

Speaker 3: 25:44

So I was thinking of this study, I read about in fact, killing McGonigal talks about it, her upside of stress book, where they had a scoop of housekeepers hotel housekeepers in the shared with them, the value of the things they are already doing. So when you make a bed it's burning six 60 calories, did you know when and what happened? And then they had their control group that were also housekeepers, but didn't have that education and the health benefits to the group that understood, wow, I'm getting this in the stuff I'm already doing. They saw a lot of health benefits that the control group didn't see is that the type of thing that might work, instead of me saying to you, find something you love, maybe helping you see, did, you know, these things you're already doing. That's really good. And then maybe you expand upon those because you think, well, yeah, I already do such and such. I could do a little bit more of that. So I'm not having to find I'm more understanding the value. Is that the,

Speaker 4: 26:44

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love that study. That was super interesting. And she's done some other interesting work kind of in that same area, but yeah, I mean, I've joked in the past. I love the placebo effect because it's, you know, if I'm going to have a positive reaction to something and, you know, and it's having a benefit to me, great. I don't really care what the source is. In fact, I prefer that it's, you know, not, uh, not an actual medication, so, and, you know, placebo effects can occur in a number of different contexts, including the one that you just described. So, yeah, absolutely. That's fine. You know, telling people just to do something that you're already doing and maybe just a little bit more of it, um, in a study that we're running, uh, with women, with heart disease, we are just launching the actual data collection, but we've created messages that are there. It's kind of more of a story and we're contrasting them and it's a very positive story and it's kind of your, you know, again, we have to default to some stereotypes and some generalities here, but it's kind of, you know, your average woman with heart disease is going to be a little bit older. Um, you know, and she's not probably going to be interested in running a marathon, but, you know, just trying to create a story about how just incorporating more things into your daily life, like activities of daily living have been shown to have positive health benefits. So just looking at a little story like that, what are the effects of that in comparison to, you know, your, the more standard, um, messages that we found that have made them feel stressed and bad about where they're at? And so what are the effects of that, but really the target in that we are very clear is not about exercise. It's not about, you know, making a, a very planned effortful, uh, thing that you want to do. It's really just about what are you, what are you doing right now? And, you know, is there something that you can do? That's just going to add onto that.

Speaker 3: 28:42

Nice. Nice. All right. So that's the messaging side. Now, the reaction side, can you talk us through a little bit around this and maybe more on a practical level as the recipients or the, the body where that reaction is happening? Is there something I can do or are there things that we can do to shift our own reactions to? I mean, we're getting thousands or millions of messages every day that we can do internally to change the way that we react to that. Is that a possibility?

Speaker 4: 29:14

Yeah, I mean, the irony is so there's, you know, the, the two sides, the automatic side and the more reflective side, and we are absolutely influencing every aspect of our life. There's a ton of work around this in terms of stereotyping and, you know, racial stereotypes or, you know, whatever stereotype you want to get into, you know, we default there it's and, but the good news is, and in terms of physical activity and messaging, you know, we can make defaults, but can you, are you willing? And, and if you actually think about something, so you can have an automatic reaction, and then the question is, do I want to think more about this? And so trying to work your way through to that point as, okay, I just had this really negative reaction. I just saw whatever message it was around. They're trying to tell me to go out and be more physically active. And I just had this know response because what, for whatever reason, I have not had good experiences with physical activity. It's not something I like to do. Why is that? And why am I having that reaction? And so it does take a lot of work and it's cognitive work. And so from that reaction side, the initial gut reaction is it's called automatic. Is it something that we can't really control, but then thinking about why am I having that reaction? And why am I behaving this? You know, why am I doing this? And why am I, you know, in that that's when you start getting into the positive psychology and trying to get rid of negative self-talk and trying to get rid of, um, all these, you know, blaming yourself and all these things and thinking about why am I having this reaction and do I want to do the work to think my way through it, to get through to the other side. And that is across any, anything, any aspect of your life that you want to think about, you know, it's going to take cognitive work.

Speaker 3: 31:03

So in order to have the capacity for that cognitive work, you've got to have margin in your life, or you've got to create margin, you've got to create that downtown. You've got to create that, not rushing from thing to thing to thing.

Speaker 4: 31:18

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that's, I mean, again, that's when we start telling people don't be stressed, well, that's much easier said than done, but I mean, just, you know, it's always that first step is just recognizing things. So I've just recently taken on a new part time, uh, role here as the associate Dean research. And so I have a little notebook. That's my associate Dean research, a notebook and write on the front cover. I wrote, it's hard to think when you're stressed because you can't, you can't, you know, that's when you start having, you know, knee jerk reactions and grouchy and, and that's as much for how I deal with other people. And so if I'm interacting with somebody in that role is what I'm doing, making somebody stressed. And if it is, it's not going to be helpful for anybody. So, which again is cheesy, easier said than done. And I know earlier I said, you know, don't tell people not to be stressed, um, because it's very, very challenging to do that. But, you know, just if you can somehow find a minute or two, just to take a breath. Yeah, absolutely. You're going to, you're going to help yourself out, which again, when you've got jobs and kids and everything that goes with that, it could be very, very hard to do, but yeah, it's one first step that you can take, take one or two minutes. If that's all you can carve out just to take a deep breath and just bring yourself down a little bit. Wow.

Speaker 3: 32:47

Wow. That's really good. All right. So the person that's listening that says, okay, this makes sense. And yeah, I'm trying to influence people around me, but at this point I want to work on myself. What, what would your findings provide any guidance for that person that they're really wanting to improve their own health and wellness? Is there, or is it mainly for the communicate tour that you're focused in on?

Speaker 4: 33:11

Yeah. So my own research and work is, uh, the communicate tour level. Um, so what are we doing? What messages exist and what are, what is the impact they're having on people? So I'm really at that. What did the messages look like and how are they influencing people? Um, but you know, at that, you know, the other side of the equation piece, you know, the person who's actually receiving the message, you know, it's that stuff that I've already said, you know, really trying to think your way through and confront yourself about why you're having a reaction that you're having. And what is it that you actually want? So another example I might use is, so I have a number of friends who, every time I see them, actually, I saw them on Saturday night at a friend's birthday party. And as soon as I walk in the room, cause they all know what I do for a living. As soon as they walk in the room, they all go, Oh, we haven't been exercising. I'm like, but what they love, they're all in. They all sing together. I cannot sing to save my life. This is another thing. If, if you flipped it around, you know, the, my skiing example earlier, it's the same thing. If you flipped it around and said, you have to sing in a choir, I would be going all, man. You know, it'd be torture for everybody else and extreme torture for me. So, but singing is a beautiful thing that brings them all together. It's their community. It's something that they love to do. Um, and so I would never say, you know, stop singing so that you can start running instead. I mean, that would be a terrible message. So, you know, and singing can reduce their stress. And again, it's a form of communication or sorry, a form of community. And you know, it's a social thing for them. It's very important to them, but why am I the catalyst for making them all feel guilty? It's a terrible, I mean, these are all long, long friends joke, but I'm just going on, man. This is the influence I have on people just because of what I do for a living. Um, and I have completely forgot what your question was when I went

Speaker 3: 35:10

From, uh, the me side, the recipient or the other things that I can do with your research or the things to improve my own health and wellness, or is it all about the helping others through communication?

Speaker 4: 35:23

Um, yeah, so, but yeah, what I was saying earlier, just thinking your, you know, if you, if you can get yourself to the place where you can actually reflect, even for a minute on why you're having the response that you have, um, then, uh, you know, you can start to slowly change perhaps while you're having that response and then eventually get to a place where your behavior will change.

Speaker 3: 35:44

Okay, good. I think it's a great message. All right. Let's flip the mirror around a little bit. How have your findings influenced you? Have you made adjustments in your own health and wellness based on what you've seen any star? I mean, we've all got our stuff. I I've shared mine on this podcast many times, but things you focused on where you integrated some research and use, uh, maybe a little bit of change.

Speaker 4: 36:08

Yeah. So I mentioned earlier that I run and I love running. Um, and I, now later in life, I started playing soccer, uh, about 10 years ago and I'm a terrible soccer player, but basically everything I love to do involves moving quickly. And, uh, that's not always best for my body. So as I'm aging, I'm getting, you know, little creeks and aches and pains, and I am not the most patient person in the world. So taking the time to stretch and do yoga is, uh, is a challenge. So, you know, I've worked my way through that. And now, um, for about probably a year now, I've been doing 10 to 15 minutes before I do anything else in the morning of just stretching and you know, yoga. So I have found that that has greatly helped, you know, all my little aches and pains and it's really only 10 or 15 minutes, but it took me a long time to go, 10 minutes is not going to, you know, destroy your day and up end everything. You know, you don't have to, if you get into work 10 minutes later, it is not going to be the end of the world. So that's one thing and the other one is just communication, you know? So it, when we're communicating with people. So, um, my husband, I know sometimes, you know, you're having a conversation and I'm thinking if I say this, I know it's not going to go very well because I know what his reaction is going to be. And as you know, and yet I'm like trying so hard to say, okay, if this is, this is going to trigger him and you know, it's not his fault and I know it's coming from me. So I'm really working through those biases and all those, you know, those, those cognitive biases that I have going, is this going to be the most effective way to communicate, you know, with this person right now, who's very important to me so that I don't trigger him. So just, you know, you know, and, and then this, by trying really hard to work through that, you know, it can reduce stress, uh, all around, you know, in the, in the, in the rare instances where we might be heading towards a disagreement,

Speaker 3: 38:16

Tracy

Speaker 4: 38:17

Ever listens to this, I had to get that in there

Speaker 3: 38:23

More, more globally. Now, if you create a message, so a sentence, a phrase, know a couple sentences, something that tomorrow shows up on the home screen and everybody's phone. So everybody sees, what does it say? What, what, what is the Dr. Berry message out?

Speaker 4: 38:40

Yeah. I've been thinking about this for a long time and I've brought it down to move a little bit and then move a little bit more, basically what I would say, because you move whatever way you want. And, you know, it's an interesting question because, uh, in our faculty and people that I know across Canada, they work with, um, people with disabilities. And so when you say, go for a walk, well, that excludes a whole lot of people. And so I've been going, okay, well, you know, that's, it's something that I've had to reconcile with. So, you know, take walking and then you say walking and wheeling, well, not everybody can we also, you know, let's try really hard not to exclude people, so just move, move, whatever way you want to. And then once that's easy, then just move a little bit more and then we'll just keep going.

Speaker 3: 39:29

I love it. Yeah. Our, our phrase, we use a lot is move fuel, connect and arrest and trying to tie those in consistently. And so I love that concept of move a little bit and then move a little bit more.

Speaker 4: 39:41

Yeah. I mean, and it's all relative, right? When I ran, um, at the university of Victoria, part of the training group, there was the varsity level runners of which, you know, I was one of them, but there were also Olympians in that group. You know, these were women, this is in the late eighties, early nineties. These women were making the finals, the 1500 meters, if the 3000 meters at the Olympics, these are some of the best runners in the world. And they were part of the training group. And so the, the, you know, I was never in any danger of any getting anywhere close to where they were at. Um, but you know, that relative, what, what movement meant for them even relative to what movement meant for a varsity level runner in terms of what movement meant for somebody who was just, you know, wanting to go for a jog or wanting to go for a walk or wanting to go for a wheel or whatever it was, you know, it's just, you're, it's all relative to who you are and where you're at. So don't compare yourself to other people. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3: 40:44

Exactly. Well, it's been fun. Any final words of wisdom you want to share? I have not teed every possible question up, but, uh, any like to throw out that I haven't, haven't peeled out at this point.

Speaker 4: 40:58

No. Um, not that, you know, it's part of endless wisdom here because I'm certainly not, I'm not sure that I can think of anything that hasn't, that we haven't already touched on. Maybe at three o'clock in the morning, I'll suddenly sit both up right. And go, Oh, I wish I'd said. Um, but, uh, yeah, no, this has been a, it's been an interesting conversation, at least from my part. And, uh, I've enjoyed it.

Speaker 3: 41:20

Well, I appreciate you joining us. What's the best way for people to, if they have questions they want to tune into some of your research. Do you have a Twitter handle? You, you like, or an email or a website or something they can tap into?

Speaker 4: 41:31

Yeah. So I have my researcher website at the university of Alberta and probably find me that way would be the easiest, say low tech website, but you know, there's some few articles and things on there. I'm a, I'm a tweet lurker. I follow people, but I vary. I think I've sent six tweets in my entire life.

Speaker 2: 41:54

Well, we won't send them to Twitter for you. Then

Speaker 4: 41:57

You just go, you alberta.ca/tanya-berry B E R Y.

Speaker 2: 42:04

Great. Very good. Well, Dr. Barry, thank you so much. Really appreciate it.

Speaker 4: 42:08

Yeah. Thank you again. And please, I really prefer Tanya, but you know, we're a bit late in the conversation, but yeah. All right. Thank you so much. All right. Take care.

Speaker 1: 42:31

[inaudible]

Speaker 2: 42:31

Quite a few nuggets in there. I don't know about you, but one that caught my attention was the concept that when stress is elevated, we depend a lot more on our automatic responses and we do less reflecting. And that naturally, I was just thinking about what are the things that I fall into when I'm stressed and the thought that, you know what that's so true. Like I, I'm not taking the time to think, is this the outcome? I just boom response. So just thinking of how maybe I want to structure some of those things a little bit differently, my own life. Thank you again to Dr. Tanya Barry. Very, very valuable. Appreciate her taking the time to do this. And thank you to you. The way you support this podcast is just so encouraging. Subscribing sharing with friends, just all the nice emails we really appreciate. I cannot believe that we just recorded our 50th episode last month. I wow. And we wouldn't keep doing it if we weren't hearing from you. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. If you have ideas for future guests, or if we can help you with anything related to coaching or your career plans, please reach out to us results@catalystcoachinginstitute.com. And just to remind you, if you're planning on joining us for the next certification training November 9th and 10th in Colorado, we did feel early in June. So don't wait too long to get registered. If you're leading in that way. In the meantime, let's keep pursuing better, both in our own lives and helping those around us do the same that old best life phrase gets so overused in our industry, but better, better. That's just one step away. So what's your better today. Make it a great rest of your day. And I will speak with you soon on the next episode of the catalyst, health and wellness coaching.

Speaker 1: 44:23

Yes.