Dr. Lisa Belanger: Secrets of Behavior Change

Curious about behavior change? In this special Hidden Gem episode, Dr. Lisa Belanger introduces us to key, practical aspects of behavior change we can apply to work, play, family and more!

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the latest episode of the catalyst, health, wellness, and performance coaching podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Bradford Cooper. And if you're curious about why we do the things we do and what we can do to make changes for the better, you're gonna love today's discussion with Dr. Lisa Belge Dr. Bell, and Jay has a PhD in behavioral medicine. She's the CEO and founder of conscious works a consulting firm that helps everyone from executives to entrepreneurs apply the findings from leading edge scientific analysis to maximize their mental and physical wellbeing at both work and home. Gee, she's done it all. She's authored a couple of books. We'll talk about that. She's climb Mount Kilimanjaro. She's run the Paris marathon. She's the mother of two young children, and she pulls back the curtain in our conversation about how this whole behavior change thing has applied to her marriage with her kids and her life. You're gonna love the story about the peppers with the kids, by the way, if you're a coach, you do not want to miss the event of the year. The Rocky mountain coaching retreat and symposium September 17th to the 19th in beautiful and frankly, very affordable Estes park, Colorado. There's currently an early registration discount available@catalystcoachinginstitute.com under the retreat tab, but that does end soon. So if you're hearing this relatively soon after release it, now's a good time to jump on. If you have any questions about the retreat or anything, coaching related, reach out to us anytime results@catalystcoachinginstitute.com, we'll set up a time to chat. Now it's time to be a catalyst tuning into the opportunity for positive behavior change in our own lives. And those around us, as we tap into the insights from Dr. Lisa Bell and Jay, on this episode of the catalyst, health, wellness, and performance coaching podcast. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Thank you for having me. Yeah, that's going to be

Speaker 1: 1:42

Great. I, as we were chatting a little bit before hitting the record button, this is right up the alley for this podcast. Your insights are they're fantastic. And I'm S I think we're gonna have a lot of fun today. First question out of the gate, motivation behavior change, healthy living. Are these elements you've always been interested in, or, or how did this become the focus of your PhD? And eventually professional pursuits

Speaker 2: 2:03

Health in general has always been a huge part of my life. Uh, I blame my parents. They are incredibly healthy individuals, so they brought that perspective. And I joke around, I got into behavior change within the house realm because I'm what we call a control enthusiastic. I like knowing what we have control over for our health. So that's why physical activity and nutrition, that idea of motivation, sleep stress. These are all behaviors we have control over. And I know that's what pushed me towards this realm.

Speaker 1: 2:32

Nice. All right. So the let's start with motivation. The concept of motivation comes up pretty consistently with health and wellness. What insights can you share with us about the topic that might not be standard? Oh yeah. I've always heard those things.

Speaker 2: 2:47

Um, yeah, that it is not that important. So we talk about it often. That's a conversation we have in this health and wellness field, but if it is in aspect of it, but what we can control as professionals that help other individuals is actually what social environments they're in or what physical environments they're in. There's plenty of research that says you can change and have actually a pretty big impact on behavior change just by changing those two aspects or what we call choice architecture. So yes, motivation's important, but it, we there's things that people are tired. They're situations that it's the easiest thing they're going to do. What's easiest for them. So if we can create a social environment where their peers are doing the behavior that we want them to do, or that they want to do, excuse me, or you can create an environment, literally rare, healthy food is the easier choice that's going to have almost as much as an influence and more in some cases when it comes to health behaviors.

Speaker 1: 3:51

Okay. So love that concept. Take us back a step. How do we, how do we get the ball rolling on those two? Are there some starting points to that? Or if people who are nodding their heads and saying, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. But what do I start?

Speaker 2: 4:08

Sure. So for example, we talked about in the field now is get rid of resolutions, get rid of goals and create micro changes. You know, what are those small little things you can do that are going to have a sustainable impact, but more than that sustainable change that you're going to do for the rest of your life. Now it's not this quick fix. So I'm going to take something super simple, drinking, water, drinking, more water. So that is a micro change you'd like to do. You know, that you'll eat a little less, be hydrated, the health benefits of that. Um, how are you going to have water on you all the time? So that the easiest thing to do is drink the water that's right beside you. So having either prompts, and I've heard this a lot, certain words you type or certain words, you hear, you take a sip of water and because it's right there, you're going to be able to do that quite easily. Um, and then think about when is it hard for you to drink water? And I'll give you an example. I commute, um, about an hour to the closest city to do a lot of my work. I rarely for a member to bring a water bottle, to put them in a car. So if that ends up being a period of time where I don't consume as much water as I'd like to, so now there's a dedicated water bottle. That's in my car.

Speaker 1: 5:24

Okay. So that's setting up that physical environment very easily. What about the social side? What about folks that say, yeah, I could see how that's happened in my life in the past, but how do I go about that? Any tips along those lines,

Speaker 2: 5:38

There's profound impact over our social environments and it's something we kind of neglect. So for a long time, uh, cardiac rehab is a great example. They get this incredible behavior change and exercise program, a nutrition program when spoken to the station after they have a heart attack and then a year later, so few of them are still doing it. And the reason is we put them back into their environment, both social and physical, where old habits come by really easily. So when we think of what we can do socially, if you're a goal, if you were, what you'd like to do in 2020 is go run a half marathon or run a 10 K, join a running group, make sure you're putting yourself in people that do this activity. If the people around you don't already do it, don't get rid of your people. Just make sure that you have a community and a group that does it. It becomes really easy to say, I'm not going for my run today, but really hard to tell somebody else you're not going for the run. So create the level of a commitment. And it creates a level of social wellbeing and belonging, which is an innate sense. We have running a race is not an innate thing. It's not something we're born with wanting to.

Speaker 1: 6:51

Yes, no. That's excellent. Excellent. All right. So then the, I don't want to say the dark side of that, but the potentially negative side of that is if someone's hanging out with their friends, they joined a running club. It's a fantastic idea. We just had so many people that talk highly about the impact that's had, but in this particular person's life. Now they're old friends, old friends in quotes are saying, well, you never go out with this anymore. You always you're. You know, you go to bed at nine 30, cause you gotta be up for your running crew. What happened to you? What's wrong with you? Why, why don't you Hank, et cetera, et cetera. How any thoughts on how to fight that tide or fight that resistance? That's going to be natural. We read about this all the time.

Speaker 2: 7:33

Absolutely. So, um, you're right. There is a little resistance there, but like the way that I phrase it is we have this influence of the people around us, especially the people who really care about, and they have an opinion about what you're doing, but they do not have to live with the consequences of what you're doing. So if you have somebody that's kind of doing that peer pressure thing that we all like, we all cave too all the time. Um, they, aren't going to have to deliver the consequences of not doing they're running. They're not going to have to live with the consequences of a maladaptive lifestyle that's yours, right? So you do have complete autonomy over that. If you really enjoy this person, making plans with them before 9:30 PM or, you know, like creating something that is yours, that you do together, that is not contradictory to the behavior that you're trying to create. So for example, they want to go have a few beers in his past nine 30 and you have to get up for a run. That's not supporting the behaviors you want, but if you can go for a coffee with them in the morning or just go and have one beer and make a presence and say, I'm still here because you don't want to cut those social ties. You just want them to be supportive of the life you want. Right.

Speaker 1: 8:44

Well, and maybe there's some reflection in there where as you think through, why are they wanting me to stay out till 11 or 12 at night? That's again, maybe that creates some positive reflection and in other

Speaker 2: 8:56

Absolutely. And it has nothing to do with you and everything to do with them. It's really important to remember that.

Speaker 1: 9:02

All right, well, your research and you've touched on this a little bit, along with a lot of others have provided huge insights lately on this idea of behavior change, but worldwide, we're getting, we're getting worse instead of better. What are we missing? What's missing out there with all the, you know, we, we know information doesn't equal application, but what is missing, that's not taking all these great insights and turning it into results.

Speaker 2: 9:28

So the biggest thing, and this is something I talk about all the time. And I really struggle with when you think a corporate wellness, when you think of people that are trying to support these behaviors, often they end at education. As in like, I'm going to tell you what you should do should it is not effective. We know it's not effective. Anybody with children knows it's not effective to tell somebody what they should do. The idea where we start really getting these fundamental changes is when we have leaders, uh, that whole model, not role model, whole model behavior. And what the difference is there is a role model. You kind of put on a pedestal. They're so good at doing X, Y, Z a whole model talks about successes and failures and kind of that whole idea of inviting somebody in to do the behavior, supporting that behavior. It's a lot more than they should. So an example is often corporations will fund things like lunch and learns, and it be unstressed management. And that's great for people to learn about stress management. Often it's not really novel new information that the person doesn't know. And if a company doesn't then support that stress management that falls short, you're actually, it's worse than not funding that in the beginning. So you have to create an environment, a social environment, a workplace to support the behaviors that you want to create. And that that person would like to create. It's so incredibly important. And I would say 99% of programs right now, stop at, I'm going to just tell them what they should do. And then I'm going to walk away and hope they do it.

Speaker 1: 11:08

This is so perfect. The coaches listening to you're just nodding their heads with a big grin on their face because that's what they do differently. We completely agree. We just interviewed Tom Peters last week on the podcast. And we were talking about this idea that most wellness programs focus on the technology piece at the center. And maybe a few people do the coaching and the effective route is to put the coaching piece, the behavior change, personalized aspect in the center, and then support that with the wonderful technology that's certainly available. And it sounds like you're talking about the same thing. Education is great, but if we stop with the education, we're not going to get anywhere. People know this stuff. Yeah,

Speaker 2: 11:48

Exactly. Like I I'll do the talk, some physical activity. And I say to the crowd who here thinks that you're surprised that physical activity is good for them. Of course, nobody raises their hand. This is not, no, nobody's like, oh, I should exercise. Oh Yeah,

Speaker 1: 12:06

That's good. I love it. All right. Your book inspired me. Well, finding motivation to take control of your health. It takes an in-depth look at what motivates behavior change to promote health and wellbeing, where there patterns that emerged as you're doing the research on this that maybe you were surprised to see.

Speaker 2: 12:23

Oh, um, I think a lot of it comes down to what I find fascinating is what actually flicks the switch for somebody. So people can be thinking, oh, I should exercise. Always should exercise as something I should do. They might've even made a new year's resolution for a couple of years and it's not sticking. And then something happens or a mind shift change, or they're able to find these micro-behaviors that they're positive. They're getting a constant positive reinforcement from. So, um, an example, a great example for me personally, uh, I know how important meditation is. I am a massive advocate. I actually speak about mindfulness all over the world, sitting down and meditating with a dedicated practice for 20 to 30 minutes a day, which I would love to do does not work. I am. I am a type triple-A personality, which is why I need it. Um, and I'm a mover and this is something that I find really behavior that I know is important. I find really challenging. I do have a constant dedicated mindfulness practice where it's much shorter. Every single morning I wake up and have a coffee and that's all I do. I just have that coffee and come to my five sentences. And I practice where my attention is going and what to do when my thoughts wander, et cetera, et cetera. And there's a couple other cue points during my day. So I do it every single day, but there's smaller versions because that's what suits my life and I've gotten reward from it and I'm good at it. So they'll find something that just kind of clicks with them. They're like, oh, I can walk to work. This is great. It actually takes less time. And I don't have to worry about parking. Okay, I'm going to do this. So trying to find and play with them, be creative. And it's not necessarily going to the gym for an hour because we then create this pass fail system that makes no sense for our health. So what is that thing that you do to get like that, that positive feedback, that reward, and that integrates into the life that you already have

Speaker 1: 14:33

In terms of questions that help spur behavior change? Do you have a few favorites that you could throw out to us that people could utilize? If they're coaching, maybe it's a new tool in their toolbox, or if it's just with a friend or maybe personally, as they reflect questions to help spur that, that behavior change movement,

Speaker 2: 14:51

What do you enjoy? If people do not love what they're doing, they're not going to do it. And it doesn't have to be the behavior itself. It can be the reward there for, but it has to be immediate. So the thing that's so challenging about health behaviors is the reward. They're all quite far in the future. If we don't focus on those immediate ones and immediate ones, cause there are, but you have to draw your attention to them. So, uh, an example would be, I don't love running. I am the first person to say that, but I run and I love how I feel after I left the clarity that comes with that. I love the stress management that comes from that. Um, and I like, I do it for my sanity kind of thing. And that's that immediate reward is there, you know, long-term rewards to that behavior, of course, but I have to draw my attention to those immediate ones. And then there's things that I love to do. So if somebody said you have to go and play hockey on the pond every day, so Canadian, but I would do it. Um, and so finding that thing that they love, we often try to like tell people that this is exactly how you should do it. And these are like the metrics and the heart rate you should achieve and all good and great. And obviously scientifically valid. The problem is if family doesn't love it, they won't continue. So it does not matter. So, um, for people that I work with a lot of cancer survivors and getting them active as an example, uh, and often after a discussion with them, what they would love most is to visit a friend while walking perfect, make a date, go after it.

Speaker 1: 16:30

I really liked that. I really, really liked that. So the person that is saying physical activity, it just hasn't been part of their life. And when you ask them, what, what do you enjoy? They say, play in my computer games when I'm relaxing or bingeing, Netflix, I don't enjoy like you. And I both know there's something out there, but how do you get help them get past that? Well, if it's physical, I don't like it. Any tips on how to get across that barrier,

Speaker 2: 17:02

Uh, often why that is, and I'm going a little deep here, but there is a reason that they just hated gym class or they don't like how they look in this. Or like there's some deep seated, teenage childhood thing about physical activity and what they think it should be. Um, what I love about walking promotion is that almost everybody can do it and they might not enjoy it is the walking, but there's something we can add to it that they like audio books, podcasts, Netflix, while they're walking, uh, friends, outdoors, music, there's a something around it. And the example I use is if I put broccoli out in the middle of the room, when people eat it, maybe if I put and Hamas or broccoli and dip with people, eat it more than likely. So what is your dip? What is that big thing that makes you enjoy the broccoli? So what's that thing that makes you enjoy the activity.

Speaker 1: 18:00

Oh, that's a great visual. Well done. Well done. Okay. Speaking of, of broccoli, let's shift slightly from physical activity to something like fruits and veggies. So you say to somebody, or you don't say to them, but they in conversation, they say, I know I should there's are, should eat more vegetables. You know, it's got that bitter taste, not quite as attractive as the fruit taste. I just don't like vegetables. And so what's the tip there is it things like the hummus to start with any suggestions, because again, wonderful visual on the physical activity side, any guidance you can give us on say the fueling piece.

Speaker 2: 18:41

Absolutely. A couple of things. We're going to start from the beginning because it's something we're just doing now. And it's hilariously entertaining to me. I do like vegetables. So does my husband, however, it's not, it's not what we will gravitate towards first, if that's fair. Like, um, but my son does, who's three. We haven't told them that they're healthy or good for him. He just likes them. I'm like, this is fantastic. So he will, his favorite snack is bell peppers,

Speaker 1: 19:11

Which

Speaker 2: 19:12

Sure actually had to say, you have to finish your dinner before you get more peppers, which is not a conversation, Such a big thing that he's never been told. This is something he should do. It's just been offered and that's, and I'm, I mean, again, this is unique to our son. I'm not saying this is validated in some way, but I do know how we feel as adults when we're told we should do so. So that kind of concept it. Isn't art. We have a dietician that I worked with at the cancer retreat say Ryan, who has like, and I can't remember what the number is, but it's like 10 or 15, whatever ways to hide vegetables. And you think it would be from kids. And it's not. It's usually from one of the adults in the household. And there's so many different ways. For example, something we do in our house, when we watch football, we're huge NFL fans is make cauliflower hot wings because they're delicious. And honestly, given the choice of that or anything else, I would actually take that. But it's about finding what works for you. It's about creating kind of, if they're not delicious, you won't need them to the point of, if you don't enjoy it, you won't do it. Um, so finding things around and about vegetables that you love, so adept hummus those concepts, but there's also, like I said, such interesting ways to prepare them cauliflower hot wings is one of them and it's finger food and it tastes the same as what you would have in chicken hopping. So

Speaker 1: 20:50

Nice. I love that. All right. So let's shift just a little bit in terms of audience here. When you're working with executives, what are you found to be similar or different about this subset of the population compared to maybe others you've worked with?

Speaker 2: 21:05

I tend to notice that they're more leaned into the conversation because if it has to do with, I guess the way that I always frame healthy versus performance, so anything you can do to support your health and wellness, is it going to increase your performance, your focus, your attention, your productivity, and these are all metrics that they want and understand. Um, and when speaking to executives, what it almost always I'll talk about other health behaviors. It's nothing new, either have all been presented in Harvard business review, Inc Forbes. Like these are conversations that have happened. So it's not new. It's the mindfulness piece that they're stuck on, fascinated with, but have resistance to. And that's where the conversation falls. Because as one executive said to me, I actually am where I am because of my ability to strategize for the future and to learn from the past, why would I want to be present? And I thought that was such a you're right? Absolutely. You're right. You have benefited from the new, your ability to do both. The idea is that you can still do that, but you're picking and choosing the most productive, important times to do that. It is not while you're trying to get to sleep at night, it is not ruminating thoughts, it's with purpose. So if you're able to control where your attention is going, that's where you see the advantage and then not bringing in your past meeting. So the meeting you're stepping into, or a hard conversation with your spouse and then stepping into a budget meeting. So that's where it comes around and for longevity, because a lot of us can do this crazy work hours, um, for a short period of time. Whereas the longevity with the leadership executive position that you have and how do you create that? So I feel like, again, it's something in the conversation that they're leaning into. There's more discussion around in business literature, in HR. Um, but how do you get it so that they can kind of shift mindset to say, this is actually a performance enhancer, if you will. Um, and again, we often focus on the health benefits of our health behaviors, but those are really futuristic goals. They're not immediate. So what are those immediate things that you can put forward?

Speaker 1: 23:21

Fantastic, fantastic. And that aligns with some of the research we've done as well. So very, very well done. Similar question, but just slightly off. Do you alter your approach specifically your approach when you're working with executives or entrepreneurs, for example, you're more direct or you're less direct, and then any research that supports that differing approach that you're aware

Speaker 2: 23:43

Of? That's a really question. I don't think I can answer it from the research perspective, but I can, from the anecdotal side, when I'm dealing with entrepreneurs and executives, the hardest challenge for them is going to be understanding that they should take breaks this concept of break. Um, so I do a lot of research around burnout and, and how we effectively disconnect from work and stress, um, and what are effective breaks. And so what entrepreneurs will often spit back at me is I love what I do. So I often work crazy hours and long time. And like, why do I need to take a break and what I am seeing with executives, but when they think of break, they think of this big, like a vacation, right? And that's great. I'm not saying they don't also have their purpose, but when I think about breaks for performance, they're actually during your day. And what entrepreneurs often do is actually have a little bit of that already. And it's just a matter of honing it because they have complete autonomy over their schedule. So yes, they have to work long hours, but typically they're able to choose when those hours are. And that's incredibly beneficial from a health perspective. We've seen that it decreases burnout and it decreases stress, but they're also not great at putting the bag down. If you like the analogy of just like putting work down for a second and completely shifting into something else. And I'm going to come back to mindfulness, let's call it attention management for the time, but that's where that can really, really help them, uh, or knowing and looking at the literature that going for a run is actually going to increase your project productivity, not decrease it. So we often think, oh, that's time away from what I'm doing. That's going to have a detrimental effect on what I'm producing. And that's not the case. I just did a literature review of breaks during the Workday and every single break, except social media breaks, increased our remain neutral on productivity and mental wellbeing, the

Speaker 1: 25:48

Ones that

Speaker 2: 25:51

I'm working on it. And the one that had the most positive benefit, the break that like the, what they were doing during the break that had the most pot is it was actually nature and natural environments. So it kind of, when people can see the data, especially when they're data driven, this, this becomes useful when you're coaching or talking to them, trying to convince them

Speaker 1: 26:14

Well. Yeah, cause that was gonna be my next question. But you might, I think you partially answered it is they get like they're listened to you. They sit they'll nod their head. And instead of saying, they all say, I, because I have that same struggle. If I don't get my exercise opportunity and in the morning, it doesn't happen because I feel too bad pulling away at lunchtime in the afternoon or whatever. So, and I'm like, you're true believer. Like I get it. And I still don't, I'm still not willing to pull away. And so that kind of data is hugely valuable. Any other tips for that person that is just, you just, it's not time to take a break. I've got to go hard until this time. And then I'll, I'll, I'll finally shut it down for the day.

Speaker 2: 26:57

So there's, there's some literature here too. I'm just going to put this kind of a bug in the back of your head. You should, if you're working on something really hard and it's semi creative, which most knowledge work is it's actually best to stop in the middle of it, go do something else and insights will come. Okay. So like, there's, there's actually like some information demonstrating that this actually works in your favor in order to actually get away when you need to, if it's not right. First thing in the morning, I totally relate to that. And I've gotten used to either making commitments to other people, making commitments to classes, personal trainers, things like that, um, to pull myself away because if I know I'm paying for it, I'll be there. Most executives are the exact same. It will cost me money if I don't go. Okay, fine. I'll go. Um, so that's a really big one. Um, tiny net having alarms, something, uh, to, to pull you away or telling yourself, you know what, I'll just go for five minutes. So I don't want to do my full 30 minute walk, but my dog's looking at me funny. I'll go for five minutes and see how you feel at the end of five minutes. Cause usually just getting yourself out the door, right. It's actually that pulling away from work. It's not the length of the activity.

Speaker 1: 28:11

Good. Okay. So another one of your books, stride to survive looks at it. It actually provides exercise and activity guidance for the young cancer survivors. So the 18 to 39 year old, are there a few core tips from that book you could share with our audience who may either be in that situation or close to someone who is,

Speaker 2: 28:29

Uh, within this group. But I found the most fascinating from all that research, you know, physical activity is great for them. Yeah, of course. It's great for everybody. Um, you know, like it's so important and obviously decreases all these risk factors that they currently have after they go through cancer and treatment. Um, the things that chemo unique to that group is they want it to be involved in community activities. So whether that's yoga class is whether that's, you know, ultimate Frisbee, whatever it is, they want it to be out in community. But in order to get there, a lot of them had to work on their strengths and, you know, physical endurance that they've lost over the period of time. So having a knowledgeable person just take them through that first like workouts, weights, um, cardio in order to get them to that goal of being out in the community. And then when we saw out in the community, which I just think it's fascinating, uh, community sports and those that were not married had so much social support from their community sports leagues. They would list those as number one. And it's just this effective, that age group, where your peers can be the most supportive people. So as much as we're saying, go do this for your physical health. There's a whole element of support that happens with physical activity groups that I think is really important. And what we're doing with the charity now that is across Canada, is we're launching a walking support group. So very different from a normal cancer support group where it is meeting out for walks biweekly. Um, with this idea, you can talk about cancer or not for cancer survivors and their support people. And it's amazing the difference that support that you've received shoulder to shoulder as if you're walking with somebody versus across the table, especially for men. So there's a whole psychology around this too. That yes, physical activity is obviously incredibly important. I'm a huge fan, but what are the elements that are producing and able to produce health effects from that engagement? So that is what came out from that. The research that supports the book that I created.

Speaker 1: 30:40

Wonderful. Wonderful. Just two more, you touched on this one, but I'm going to come back to it just in case you have anything else you want to throw out, turning the mirror around. So in your life you talked about the mindfulness piece and what you've done to adjust that from the 30 minutes to the throughout the day. But how are you applying some of these insights in your own health and wellness journey right now? Not on something you figured out, so I'm not looking for. And here's how I figured it out in my life. I'm looking for more, you know what, Brad, I'm kind of struggling in this one and here's kind of how I'm applying it, but I'm not there yet.

Speaker 2: 31:12

Yes, I will. No, I will not be wanting to claim perfection in any of these areas, but I am a scientist. So I want to explore these things, things that I'm struggling with right now, I love his Glock to be, you don't have to convince me to do it is there is some barriers that I have not used to at my way, one, I have a two month old baby. She wants a needs things all the time. So it's not like I can just, I can't, I don't have the freedom to create the schedule that I used to be able to write the other barrier. Is it cold as where I live right now, which I don't know how to leave the house with a baby when it's this cold. So there's these barriers that I've never had before for physical activity. So what I did is I'm somebody that advocates for behavior change, cooperation over competition. 100%, if you want sustainable behavior change, it is about cooperating with others, creating groups, not people competing against each other and saying that I'm bringing my rules right now. My husband and I are most the most competitive people you'll ever. So I have challenged him to a step challenge that I literally can do around the house if I need to or go to the gym and go on the treadmill or like whatever. And we're getting really creative on this truth is it's quite, it has to be quite cooperative too. Like if I'm going to the gym, he has to take the children. So there's still, it can't be up, but it's for the trip that we go to in 2021, our first trip, he wants to go to, I, I want to go to Paris and we are so competitive and it's actually working out way better for him than me, which I did not expect. So it's playing around with that a little bit and seeing what we love and what we love to do. But the great thing is, and again, because we were either going to Hawaii or Paris, these are, Um, we will be like, let's go for a walk after dinner. Or do you want me to take the kids to go to the gym because you're low on staff. So there's a cooperative element as well. Um, the one thing that I would say that works, why it works so well, um, for us is, um, naturally my husband's a lot less active than I am. And that becomes challenging because like I said, your social environment so much of how we behave. So if he says, it's actually sit at lunch football, that's the easier choice. If you'd like, no, I want to go do this activity. Right? So that's one of the reasons it is working out so far for us. And like I said, kind of better for him than me, but that's something I'm playing around with right now and looking at the cooperation competition version of how it works differently for everybody, because we have different personalities, we just happen to be incredibly competitive people. And then the other thing is how do you totally disconnect from work and stress when you're an entrepreneur and academic with two small children? And I thought I was doing an okay job, but like I said, I was saying to you before the call, I recently went to New Jersey for a course, without my children for two teas, I was showering. And about halfway through the shower, I realized for the first time there was no little hands going under the door. I wasn't checking on the baby. I wasn't listening out for her. And I actually was like, you know, like breeze out, this, this is actually it's right now. This is, you know, your, your opportunity. So how do you ensure you do that when you're a caregiver, whichever, whatever that looks like and have a job that you can't necessarily check in and check out of, which is most of us, um, I'm terrible at it. And so this is really where I'm pushing myself right now on how you can be creative to do it, um, and how to make sure that I do it. We all need it. So I can't simply say, oh, I'm a mother. I don't take that. No, that's not how brains work. So how do you make sure you get it

Speaker 1: 35:04

Right? All right, well, keep me updated on the notes. Maybe I can get some more tips from me cause I struggled in the same way, such great stuff. Last question, just wide open, any final words of wisdom that you'd like to share with those who were either trying to help other folks with their health and wellness or simply trying to improve their own lives in that way.

Speaker 2: 35:23

One of the biggest things lessons learned, um, through working with executives mainly, but everybody I would say is there is no pass, fail. The way we communicate with ourselves often is that idea of, well, I tried to go to the gym and I didn't for today. So I guess I'm not doing it now. No. Um, there's not this black and white thinking. We really have to shift how we speak to ourselves when it comes to health behaviors. Um, my example to this, if anybody has kids, but around kids, seeing kids ever, if you are working with a kid to learn to walk in, in that first stage where they're wobbling around, you get down low and you use this incredibly annoying boys and you're like, come on, let's go. Could you imagine we talked to them in that same way. We talk to ourselves where they follow and we're like, well, you might as well stay there. I guess you're not a Walker. Of course not. Yeah, exactly. Of course we would never do that, but we do it to ourselves all the time. So developing, um, you know, like if you want to call it a growth mindset or whatever it is, but just getting rid of that idea of black and white, you failed because you didn't do it once or twice or three times. No, every moment's a new opportunity to do it every day is. And if it doesn't work, figure out something that works within your life. So stop trying to reach for those ideals of, I want to do an hour at the gym every day, calm down. Okay. What would work in your life? Let's go for that.

Speaker 1: 36:56

This is so good. How can folks keep track of what you're doing and stay in touch with you? You have a Twitter account or a website you'd like to send them to

Speaker 2: 37:04

Absolutely follow Dr. Lisa[inaudible] on Twitter and Instagram. Um, there's a whole bunch of things I'm doing this year that I think your audience will be very keen on and you will be keen on including a new book. And, uh, next month, my two month old daughter, she'll be three months old. And my husband and I are going to the Scandinavian countries to talk to them about how they take breaks from work and stress. So there's going to be a really interesting cultural element to these things that you know, you and I just discussed. Please struggle with

Speaker 1: 37:36

Very good, very good. Dr. Vaughn J so appreciate it. Thanks for joining us, looking at social and physical environments, considering whole models versus just role models starting with, what do you enjoy as the first question? And one of my own personal favorites avoid the Schultz. Thank you against Dr. Lisa Bell and Jay for joining us love this. It's why it's one of our hidden gems, such a practical approach to make the most of our lives and helping those around us do the same. I love what she said about how most employee wellness programs, thankfully fall short. They stop at the education and they miss out on the key behavior change opportunities. If your organization is looking for ways to enhance your employee wellness strategy, outcomes, and effectiveness, we'd obviously be happy to help. Please reach out to me. You can email me personally B Cooper. That's B as in bradCooper@uscorporatewellness.com and we'll set up a time to discuss ideas and options. Next week, guest is the hip hop prof from Wharton. Dr. America's read the second. He'll be sharing his insights about image, social media marketing, and more. And frankly, he's just a good guy. Not only brilliant, but a lot of fun. You're going to love it. Now it's time to be a catalyst for a world in need. This is Dr. Bradford Cooper signing off, make it a great rest of your day. And I'll speak with you soon on the next episode of the catalyst, health, wellness, and performance coaching podcast, or maybe you'll find the YouTube coaching.