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Since You Put It That Way
Tune into "Health Insights with Dr. Mary Louder," where she and her distinguished guests unravel the complex differences between health and medical care. Explore a range of topics, from emerging healthcare challenges to groundbreaking concepts, all designed to ignite transformative "aha" moments and reshape your perspective on wellness. Don't miss an episode—subscribe now to embark on a journey that redefines what you know about health and invites you to think, "Why haven't I seen it this way before?"
Since You Put It That Way
Seeking Health: The Synergy between Spirituality and Medicine
Join Mary Louder, DO and Sarah Seidelmann, MD, as they journey into what the path out of traditional medicine and into holistic, spiritual care looks like. Dr. Seidelmann speaks to her own background in surgical pathology, how she came to be interested in making a new way in life and in her career, and how she now works to heal others in a holistic, mind-body-spirit approach that leans heavily into spiritual practice and deep listening.
Intro for "Since you put it that way" podcast.
Outro for "Since you put it that way" podcast
Hi, welcome, Dr. Mary Louder here, and this is another episode of Since You Put It That Way. Our guest today is absolutely a delightful individual, Dr. Sarah Seidelmann. And Dr. Seidelmann, or Sarah as she goes by, is a fourth generation physician. She's an accomplished writer, a shamanic healer, an artist and coach. She has six books that she's written, which all have been instant Amazon bestsellers. And one of the books that I love so much is called How Good Are You Willing To Let It Get, and on our website we'll have the listings of her books and where to get those. But for 20 years she was, has been a--was a professional disease hunter as a surgical pathologist. And that means looking under microscopes, understanding histology, tissue--tissue pathology, not easy to say, to help people understand what--and to decide what diagnosis that they had. And then the other types of physicians would pick up and deliver treatment options and things like that. So her work was key. But what she found was that she was always hunting for disease. And she wondered about, how do you hunt for health? And through her own investigation with the help of the--her spiritual ally, Alice, which we'll learn about in the podcast, she discovered her creative self expression, and how that was fundamental not only to her vitality and health, but for those who she began to serve in a different way than being a surgical pathologist. So this is about her story and journey of becoming into who she is now as a shaman, a coach, a creator, a creative and an artist. So sit back and get a good cup of coffee or tea or something to listen to, because this is a fun discussion and conversation with Dr. Sarah Seidelmann on Since You Put It That Way. Welcome, Sarah. Dr. Sarah Seidelmann. So today's a paradox, right? There's two of us on the podcast of Since You Put It That Way. So because there's two doctors it's a paradox, right?
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Say more about that, Mary.
Mary Louder:Well, there's two people, so, two physicians, a pair of docs.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Oh, pair of--I'm really slow this morning, apparently. Yes. Good one.
Mary Louder:Yeah. So I'm so excited that you're our guests on since you put it that way. Last night, I could hardly sleep I kept waking up thinking about more questions. And I thought, What am I, How am I going to look fresh in the morning? I thought, Oh, just another cup of coffee oughta do it. So here we are. So welcome. I'm so glad that you're here.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited about this conversation.
Mary Louder:Yeah. And it's good that you're calling it conversation, I would say, you know, we're going to have a chat. But that just sounds pedestrian. We're really in conversation about all things related to how you and your journey has been transformative, not only for you, but now the people that you serve in a different way. And so, you know, starting out, I'll just give a little history, but I'm going to have you do the backstory. You're a physician, and a surgical pathologist. And you come from a long line of physicians. Somewhere in the middle of all that you said, I think, timeout, I want to do something different. So give us the filling for all of that and what happened.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah, um, so as I hit my, like late 40s, early 30s--or late 30s, early 40s. I started to find myself a little less enchanted at work. You know, medicine is a very enchanting profession, because there's so--at least for for a person who loves to look, I would just absolutely loved it for so long. But I started finding myself asking the question--for example, in breast cancer conference that I was presenting, every week, different cases--you know, like, what makes people well. I, you know, as a pathologist, I was essentially a paid disease hunter, you know, sitting in the microscope every day looking--looking for disease or to rule out disease. So, you know, benign versus malignant, infection, like what's going on, so we could tell their doctors, the patient's doctors, like how to care for them. And I remember just feeling like, gosh, like, I've seen disease, and now I see it and, you know, we have all this causation for that, but like, what makes people well? And I remember there was a case at Breast Cancer conference, again, where one of the social workers, we you know, we present all the details of a tumor and then there were all these doctors in the room to talk about radiation, to talk about chemotherapy, like what's the best thing for this person? And I remember one of the social workers raising their hand and saying something like, you know, this person's partner is abusive and is refusing to drive her to chemotherapy, really facing some difficult challenges. And then one of the other doctors said, you know, that's really important. And we need to talk about that, but not right now, because we have so many cases to present. You know, and just realizing how this this significant social detail is really not something that we consider. I mean, we do consider it, but I remember thinking, wow, like, I wonder if we had circled the wagons around this woman, let's say 10-15 years prior, could we have influenced her health and well being? You know, my hunch is yes. And anyway, so I just sort of started getting curious about what makes people well, and eventually, I got the courage to take a sabbatical from work to just kind of explore those things that I--and during that time I trained with Martha Beck, who's an amazing coach and writer, wrote the The Way of Integrity is one of my favorite books of hers, and eventually became a master coach for her. But anyway, during this sabbatical, I learned from her. And then I stumbled onto this path of spirit. I think, you know, at some point in our life, we just, we come to that crossroads where we can no longer like mentally figure out how to navigate life. And I was definitely at that point, because I was like, boy, I don't want to go back to work. I'm enjoying this exploration of like, working with people to--and myself, to learn, like, what it is I need, and getting back on track for that. And so, anyway, I stumbled into this path of spirit. And I think that was something that early on in medical school, I encountered and was--or encountered opportunities for exploring spirit, but wasn't sure what to do with--you know, with that. And years ago, when I was a medical student, one of the most memorable things that happened was we had a patient who was had breast cancer, again, breast cancer seemed to be a theme there. And she was young. And we were it was during the years when we were doing bone marrow transplant for breast cancer stage four, and eventually, we learned that those that bone marrow transplant that was actually harming more people and killing more people than it was helping, but at the time, we were in the research phase, and it was kind of a brutal time. And I remember going into visit this young patient who had like three kids and had just recently been divorced. So she's already in a state of like, you know, potentially overwhelmed. And she her platelets were extremely low. And we kept going in and saying, you know, your platelets are low again today, but we're going to try to get them up and, and I remember thinking we'd leave the room everyday, like, we're not doing--this is like, I don't know, it just felt so unhelpful, what we were doing. And I wondered, like, what is this person need, like, she needs something else. Like, I don't know what she needs, but what we're saying to her is this, someone, something so much bigger going on here. And a couple days later, my resident and I were running up the staircase as one does. And his beeper went off, and it was, you know, telling us that this patient had died. Because she had bled to death, you know, without--with her lack of platelets. And I remember just we--it was beautiful moment, because we both sat down in the stairwell and we cried, which, in medical school, like, ain't no--at least when I went through, like nobody's crying, even though how brutal some of the things are, how heartbreaking the situations, there's no talk of like, how does that--how do you feel? Are you okay, after we just saw x, or if we, you know, just so much happened. So, I think at that point, that's when I decided, like, I don't know how to, this isn't what I want to do to help people in medicine, and I don't know what it needs. So I'm gonna go into pathology, I'm gonna just sidestep this business, and go into pathology, which is something I understand, I feel like it can be of service.
Mary Louder:Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:And so I think that original desire to sort of serve the soul or to address the needs of the soul, like to prepare for death or to, you know, so that we can live out our days, whatever, however many we have, etc. So it's sort of a full circle. So I ended up, yeah.
Mary Louder:Yeah. Well, they talk about, you know, anything of an initiation into spirit, or things led by spirit, not necessarily religion, but sometimes, because that's more rules and dogma. But we're talking relationship, experience, things like that. encounters, that that's there's an initiation in there. And so those ruptures, as we would call them, where you had a traumatic event would initiate you to, I would think, awaken. And so you were responding at that point. And then, you know, some of the work that I study is Celtic from a spiritual sense, and that's really--as I look back through my history, that's been all throughout all the things I've learned even when I was in some traditional religions, which is fascinating. But one of the thing that's Celtic is, it's the echo of the soul. That's both near and afar. So it goes both ways. We are responding on our side towards what we hear out there bouncing off, and also from the call out there that bounces off as us back.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:That's beautiful.
Mary Louder:And so that's really, you know, what you were doing? Because you were responding to the call from people to help me be--
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yes.
Mary Louder:I mean, their platelet count, their cells, their pathology, was asking and crying out for help, really. You just read the body, right?
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:It's true. And then, but there was this part of me that just wanted to hide under the covers for the other part, the part that I was like, I that's that refusal of the call in the Hero's Journey, like, yeah, no, that's not me. Because I remember, like, I probably need to go through 20 years of psychotherapy before I could actually help. I mean, I really didn't know. I didn't you know, when you're twenty years old, you don't know--or 23, you don't know nothing, you know, or you think you know, but--
Mary Louder:You know everything about nothing--you know nothing about everything, everything about nothing.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Right.
Mary Louder:Yeah. So you took the sabbatical. And you said, Hey, I don't want to quite go back and be the surgical pathologist that I was because that's, you know, I'm hunting only for disease. And it's interesting, because where you ever put your intention you find, right? And so then you're like, popping your head up going, well, where's health? How do we find health in this?
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah.
Mary Louder:And so what did that do to your career?
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Well, so during this sabbatical, which was originally supposed to be three months, I sort of--that summer when I was in the original three months, I ended up discovering this land of spirit, spirit animals in particular. And I started and even though I thought this idea was crazy, that there were spirit animals that could somehow help you, advise you, empower you, all these things. I was like, that sounds crazy. But I was also like, wow, that sounds kind of good. Like I could use a little of that right now, because I was so confused. And so as I started to explore that, I ended up getting invited to Africa, South Africa with a friend to negotiate a bride price for her cousin, which is crazy story and amazing experience, but I got to spend time in the presence of sangomas, a sangoma trio, doing their spiritual work. I remember sitting, they threw bones for us, and then we crawled out of the this hut that we were in. And then they proceeded to allow the spirits of the trees to come into their bodies and to dance. And there was probably in this clearing that were probably like, we didn't realize it, but like 40 or 50 people had showed up while we were in the hut. And I came out, and these women were just dancing with so much joy. And I just remember, just like tears just streaming down my face. Like, I don't understand what this is, I don't understand what is happening here. But the fact that they just listened to us with such intense presence, and the fact that they're now doing this dance, like, on behalf of us with our small problems, I just thought something is happening here. And I don't get it, but I want to learn more. were like, That's fine. Because, you know, they had some of--they, it was a good time to take more time off. And so I did, and by the end of the six months, I was like, I'm gonna go casual, which at our visit our practice that meant if you--if they needed me, they could call me and I would come in. Yeah. But I didn't have to say yes if I didn't want to, and I think I worked like maybe six days that next year or something. And every time I would go into work, I would think, Oh my gosh, like I can't believe I stayed here as long as I--like, I can't do this work anymore. I need to be doing this other stuff, which is totally illogical and makes no sense and makes no money like where are we going to pay the bill? Like that was the big challenge at that time?
Mary Louder:Right.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Because I had four kids, wanted to send them to college, still had a house payment, all that kind of stuff.
Mary Louder:Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:So I was really facing a lot of fear about, yeah, how are we going to make this work with all the, you know, all our intentions that we have? So I eventually began to build a practice and and decide well, what do I want to do? And I started writing a book I was like, okay, and I was full of fire and--to do it, because it was so passionate about these, the subject matter.
Mary Louder:Right.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:And it was meanwhile changing my life completely. I mean, I--once I connected with my first spirit animal, who was this mother bear, I mean, I would just visit her every day using a drum, using a drumbeat to travel. And I just like cried and cried and cried, I think I just had so much maybe trauma or just bad experience, you know, things that I just needed to let go of and grieve over the last, you know, 15, 20, who knows how many years, one of which was really being separated from my kids, I think that was something that was also very difficult for me being in medicine, and it was just such an all consuming thing. So, being part of that for 20 years, it was really sweet to have my life a little bit back in my hands where I could spend time with my children and enjoy them. And sometimes not enjoy them, but be with them.
Mary Louder:Yes, you're still annoying, and you're mine.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yes.
Mary Louder:So you know, it's interesting, know, we talk about physicians being good or bad, which I don't like to use the words like that. I usually tend to be--I usually tend to say they're awake, alert, enlightened, or maybe not, maybe a little bit more mechanistic. Yeah? But I don't believe with how difficult medicine is to get into, to train and to complete and then to continue on, I don't believe anybody there is there that doesn't truly have a passion for healing. And I put that in the same category as the universe is And that's a perspective that no matter what happens, I choose to friendly. believe. Can I prove it? No. But that belief, and anchoring in that belief, then will allow me to look around at all the physicians and believe and hope that they are really healers. Even if they have a day that is not good, or their bedside manner's horrible, somewhere deep inside, they have done something to get to where they are. And that's usually responding to a call of being a healer. And, you know, in our modern world, we westernize it, we silo it, we, we dehumanize it, we monetize it, we capitalize it, we insurance it, we do all these things, that is so far away from healing. And, you know, you mentioned about, you know, the social worker standing up and saying, Well, this woman is a, you know, domestic violence survivor, or, you know, in the process of surviving that and they're like, Yeah, fine, but we'd really can't touch on that. And, you know, I was in a conference not too long ago, speaking as one of the board members, and then it came up about some disease topic and some diagnosis. And the same thing, that the speaker said, Well, we know there are psychosocial issues, but that's not for us to worry about. Like, that's all we should worry about. You know, and I'm an osteopath, that's what we were, you know, we were teething on psychosocial issues, biopsychosocial model, you know, that's what we were weaned off of, you know? And, and the mind-body-spirit approach and the body's inherent capacity to heal. And so to hear that still within the osteopaths, it's very, very challenging. But I think that's one thing as a physician, that is difficult, and I don't know that people appreciate how difficult it is for a physician to stand up against that. So for you to, you know, not necessarily resist your partners, but to take a stand to do something different and to appear different because medicine loves a tribe. And for all, you know, we're always at the front of everything to get to where we are, we're at the front of the class, top of the class, top of your grades. And then all of a sudden, you've got everybody who's at the top of everything clustered together. And so it's like the top of the top and then there's a tribe, no one wants to be first, right? No one wants to stand out. But you were doing both of those things. You were, you know, being a positive disrupter in a good way. You were standing out, standing up, and that--
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah, I didn't want, I didn't go to--Yeah, I didn't go to work and like say we've gotta check--you know, I was--I'm not well, you know, like an activist like that, or something like that. But I did and I really didn't have the courage to even tell my partners, Hey, I'm you know, talking with spirit animals and it's like absolutely life altering. Like, I--I can't even tell you. I didn't have the courage to talk to them about that, because I thought well, they'll think I'm crazy. But yeah, I think each of us gets these callings and it's just--I don't know I feel like it's not really a choice--I guess there a there is a choice, but I mean, the choice is either die and be miser--like kind of choose to die slowly one day at a time, or choose to like fully open up to what you're being called to do, no matter how difficult, you know, or, or--yeah, weird it is. Yeah. Sometimes I forget how weird I am. And then I'll get a little cold slap of reality. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. Nobody thinks like, or not everybody thinks like I do in this. Totally great.
Mary Louder:Yeah. I think--well, the thing that's--I think there are more of us and actually sync alike than not. And I think--
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:For sure.
Mary Louder:Yeah. And I think more and more this area, because I think one of the things physicians are getting frustrated with what they're having to do. And I know patients are frustrated with what they're experiencing. And, you know, that was one of the things that led me to totally leave the clinic, even the clinic I had built during, you know, in Colorado, and then the pandemic wiped it out. And then we moved back to Michigan, but even then a short clin--stint in a clinic again, I'm like, I'm out. I just, I can't run a big clinic, I don't want the overhead, I don't, I just want to meet with individuals, and work with them. And remove all the distractions to really see and bring the healing. You know? So that's, that's--and really, and so, and the same thing, looking for health, how do we bring about, you know, the connection, the mind-body-spirit. So, when you were doing your going through this transformation, what was the most exciting thing that really pumped you up, that kept you going during this, you know, this season of change that was really deep?
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Well, I would say, you know, of course, spending time with my helping spirits, so literally once so just for people who don't know much about shamanism, it's just this ancient way of practicing, of looking at the world. It's not a religion, where you use some kind of usually sonic driving like drumming is really the most common, but there's other ways to alter the consciousness so that you can access these spirit worlds where there are loving and compassionate spirits. And that was pretty amazing, because I really had never encountered any kind of that deep sense of love and compassion that I felt when I would spend time in those worlds. And, and when I would, I'd always feel so much better afterwards. So it's like I discovered this like, endless well to restore myself. And so that was really powerful. Probably the next big thing that really changed me was, I went and did some training. I think it did some originally some training, just what is this, I don't even understand what this is. So I wanted to learn from some more masterful people of what I was learning on my own, more or less, for like three or four months, and eventually did a shamanic healing training. And when I came back, I offered it to my kids, like if they had a stomach ache or something like that. And I remember one night, one of my kids who was like, five or six at the time was like, I have a stomach ache. And I'm like, Well, would you like to go into my little healing space and get a healing? And they were like, yes. And that--before the healing, I would usually have people--my--these are like before I ever became professional at it, but I had all these like natural materials. And I was like, Well, can you make a like a kind of a collage And I remember just thinking, I don't really understand what out of all these like dried flowers and seeds and stones, this is or how this works. It's so mysterious, but like I like make a collage out of this? Oh, how you're feeling in your thought to myself, even if this is the only reason I practice stomach, you know. And so she made this collage. It was kind this is just to be there for my kids and to watch them be able of messy and tangled, like the way you might think about to be relieved of their suffering, I am in. And so like, somebody who's having some pain. And anyway, we went through the healing process. And then at the end, I said, well, sometimes if you feel any different, you can take these materials and do something different with your original collage, or you can just leave it as it is. And she started working away on this tray of materials. And then she's like, I'm done. And so then I looked over. And I can tell it had much more structure was very symmetric, but I wasn't sure it was going on. And then she's--I was like, Oh, tell me about this. And she's like, Mama, can't you see it? It's an angel. And her stomach ache and totally gone away. And there is this beautiful, like angel in the sticks in the leaves and the stones. little things like that started to happen more and more. And then really amazing things started to happen on the regular and I was like, again, I don't understand this, but I am I feel so good. And I feel so--not that it was easy, of course, but like, I feel like--I, whatever this is it's helping people and it's helping me and so, I'm just gonna keep going.
Mary Louder:Yeah, you've you know. So you've outlined some
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yes.
Mary Louder:And so that's the thing. So you're right, you very key things about shamanism. You know, because I went to the can't go into your world and say, Well, I'm a shaman, because definitions, so I'm a structure-function gal, you know, what's the structure, how's it function? And so you, you look at the key thing about a shamanism and the shaman, they're a shaman if there's results with what they do. you're like, Well, really, okay, whatever, you can announce your arrival. But by showing up in your presence with and doing something that you know to do, and get results, that defines a shaman. Because you've connected with powers, you connected with spirit, you've traveled somewhere for something and then come back with a resolve of a situation. And across all the literature that I've looked at regarding definitions of shamans, I've looked at philosophy, you know, just just about five different references that were mainstream, vetted references. That was the theme that kept coming through.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah, I think, I think that's, that's right. You get results. And often I think of shamans as scientists, because basically, you go visit this, let's say, I'm going to go visit Alice, the elephant. And I'm going to ask her, like, can you show me a healing ceremony that I can perform for so-and-so in my community, whatever, like to help them. And then she shows me something, and then I perform that ceremony. And this is all by the way, done with permission, obviously, with between the person and myself. If that person gets relief, and that person finds what they need in that moment, for that time period, because you know, we're always evolving, and there's no like, now you're healed. And it's all done, but because I think on that day is the day you're moving to the other worlds, right, you've moved, you've graduated from here, and you've got other healing to do somewhere else. But yeah, so a scientist experiments, and then if I get a good result, well, you can be sure I'm going to do that work again. Because why not?
Mary Louder:Exactly. And then for the same thing, so what shamanism is, what shamanism is not. And here's some thoughts here. It is not mysticism. It is not energy medicine. It's not metaphysical. It's not psychological. And it's not a cultural appropriation of indigenous practices.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah, my teacher always would say, Please don't ask me about, you know, like shamanic energy work. Or please don't ask me about tai chi shamanism, because we tend to people tend to blend these things. And there's nothing wrong with that. It's just, it is its own thing. And sometimes that's confusing to understand. But as you practice it yourself, you kind of make your own discoveries about that, I guess.
Mary Louder:And I think that's the purity of it, because how you describe treating your daughter was a very pure intent. Honey, use these tools in front of you to tell me how you feel.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah.
Mary Louder:Go and journey together and find out an answer and come back. How did that work for you? I mean, the absolute purity in that, the sovereignty of the individuals in that, the sovereignty and the purity of the process is all delineated right there. One of the things you know, in the New Age world, if we call it that, is, you know, there's spiritual bypassing and there's a lot of manipulation. You have to be attached to a healer. You have to do it my way you have to, in order for you to get well, you know, things like that, and it's just, ooh, there's just a lot of abuse in those things and and overstepping the boundaries. And I think the thing that rises above in shamanism is it stands outside all by itself, or the bounds of everything. And it's literally--it feels like as I was looking at the definitions, and it's kind of a beingness that a person has, and then they do.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah, I like that, because the, the greatest healers have developed, like, in my opinion, the people that I've spent time with that I'm like, wow, wow. They tend to cultivate that presence that they have. And their presence is very powerful. And it comes from spending a lot of time alone, paying attention. And spending a lot of time being introspective, and looking at themselves, and, you know, the best healers too, tend to laugh a lot about their own, you know, their own imperfections, or the irony of like, how I remember the middle of the night in a ceremony where the shaman is like, he's talking about, he's like, praying, he was like, you know, saying this prayer, but let's pray for the mothers and the fathers. Like, they do the best job they can. You know, like, everybody tried to do the best job that he said, Oh, pray for me, it's very difficult for me to call my mother. Then we all just roared with laughter, because it's like, here he is, you know, like, able to help so many people with his gifts and with his faith and his connection to the spirit worlds, but he too, struggles. He's also is human, you know. And I think that is like, it's a partnership. And when you partner with a client, it's like, we put our hands together and say, We're gonna do this ceremony to ask for help for you. And then we're just gonna see like, it's not me, it's woo, this is way above both of our pay grades, what the problem is, or how to help you. But we're going to ask these helping spirits to come because I don't know what you need. And it clearly you don't know what you need, exactly, because you came here. And so there's a humility in it, like, you sort of have to have an ego, because you got to know who you are as a person, and where you're going. But you also have to be, yeah, humble. And--
Mary Louder:Yeah.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:--no fake humility either, right? There's also like, just to be proud of the work you do. I think that's something I got messed up in the beginning of my training into these worlds, it's like--you have to be confident to like, well I mean, which comes over time, and confident in yourself and your, and your, your helping spirits.
Mary Louder:Yeah, yeah. And I think that because I think ego is something that helps us get through life, it allows us to show up, we need those traits, because it's part of our identity, it helps us in this first formative years of our life, you know, growing into individuation, and all of the hierarchy needs--hierarchi--hierarchical needs that we have as humans, you know, establishing our boundaries. So those are ego boundaries. And so those are important. And we have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, maybe just hang our ego at the door by the hat. You know, and, and something like that, in the ego, grab the beads. I don't know, I mean, something like that.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah, we definitely, definitely need it because we need to know who we are and what we believe and where we're going. You know, and and that's, you know, can be subject to change, but yeah, important.
Mary Louder:Exactly. Okay, so I want to jump into--you brought, you brought, you brought, you brought up the name, and I wanted to go right there, who's Alice?
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:So Alice--so my first, I already shared that the first spirit animal that I met was a bear. And then just as I sort of started going casual at work, and was really starting to maybe jump off a cliff. And I was pretty scared about that, for a lot of reasons--Alice, this elephant showed up in my spirit worlds, and she's just so loving and so funny and like, so like, just like girl, where you're going, you don't need any of these diplomas, and she would take all my medical diplomas and like, throw them in the river. And I was like, Oh my God, what are you doing? That is not okay. But I'm like, really? Where am I going? You know, it was, she just really encouraged me to come out and really be myself. Um, which for years, I think I had tried to suppress who I was in order to play the game of getting top grade, you know, like, I had learned how to manipulate. I had learned how to not be myself so that, you know, thinking that if I wasn't myself, it would actually help me. Which probably in some days, some situations it did, but in medical school, it's like what do I need to do to for you to give me the top grade in this rotation because I am going to be top program and I am not, you know, just that competitive--and then fitting in I think, in a very masculine mechanistic role model of medicine. All my partners were male. Yeah, there wasn't like--there was no place to acknowledge my femininity, or I was scared to because it's like, never let them see you sweat, because there's just this feeling like I have to be strong. I'm barely accepted here, you know, for being a woman.
Mary Louder:Right.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Anyway--
Mary Louder:But in the water, they go for it.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yes. So Alice, was just like, she's like, just be yourself, you know, and I mean, I really started being myself. I mean, it was crazy. It was fun. Like, she taught me this bet that I remember, she's like, I was like going to her, I was like, oh my energy, I need to like, I'd like to feel better in my, my--just feel more energized to do all this work, because I had so much to do with this building a whole new career. And she was like, here's what you're going to do get a red pair of underwear, you're going to put them on your head, and you're going to do this practice. Like it was so silly, like wearing underwear on your head and then do this like chakra practice and I was like, and it was so funny. I started sharing with other people and people thought it was hilarious. And people were enjoying it because they were just like, Who is this Alice? And so I really started sharing her with more people, and we ended up, she kind of helped me write a book.
Mary Louder:Here it is right here.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Well, that one too. And then Born to Freak: A Salty Primer, that was kind of--she interjected a lot of comments in there.
Mary Louder:Okay.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:I was spending a lot of time with her. And it just started to restore my exuberance, my, you know, like my carefreeness my just like not caring what other people think. And with all that beautiful energy ended up launching, like a surfing retreat that involves shamanism for women with some other coaches. And we had an amazing time, and we laughed, and it was challenging, and it was all of those things. And yeah, I started getting clients for my coaching practice. And it seemed like the more I could be myself, the better things were, you know? And also, during that time, I got a diagnosis of ADHD. I had run into an old friend from medicine, and she was like, telling me that she had been diagnosed with ADHD. And I started looking at her over lunch, I'm thinking, and I'm like, gosh, that makes sense. And I knew she was a bit of a loose cannon, and this really fun person, but you know, she had these irrepressible kind of qualities. And I was like, I do too, and then I just immediately went home and read, I think the quintessential book, John Ratey. And I'm forgetting Hallowell's book, Driven to Distraction. And I was like, Oh, my gosh. And that's when I really realized, wow. And Alice helped me accept all that, too. She was like, and I just started to see it everywhere. How many of the my favorite people were Born to Freak, so to speak, you know, either they had ADHD, or maybe they had depression or anxiety or Asperger's. And they were a little bit different. They were a little more sensitive, or they just, you know, neurodiverse in some way. And I just remember thinking, like, these are my people. These are some of my favorite people to hang with and to learn from. So. That was a big liberation that happened to for me.
Mary Louder:Yeah, I you know, so I've done 30 years of family practice. And my D--my ADHD has served me because it literally Short attention span theater. And so where I got in trouble was I talked in class, I went back and looked at my report cards from elementary. Too chatty, very good student but loves to chat, finishes her work, but chats too much. My was running from room to room to handle different problems. attending would go--he was the toughest internist. And he would go, very good physician, but you just talk too much. What are you doing? You're staying behind talking to the patients, and why do you talk to those social workers, anyway? Here's what he would say to me. So then we go. So as you know, we go on rounds, So that means for our listeners, we go from hospital room to right?
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah. hospital room discussing the case, largely in the third person in front of the patient, right? So it's challenging, dehumanizing, and I was always super sensitive to that, right? Because I didn't want the patient feeling out of connection for patients. Anyway, I would come back and I would catch up a couple rooms later, you go well, where you bet. I said, Well, I mean, I thought about Mrs. Smith back there, in room 12, and I'm wondering, and he go, how'd you come up with that? I said, talking to her. That's the direction we need to go. You know, and that has served me to this day. The premise of that is listen to the patient. They'll tell you what's wrong with them. Yes, yeah, absolutely.
Mary Louder:Same thing with clients when you're doing, you know, shamanic work. Listen to them, they'll tell you what their needs are. You take that in to the journey, you know, take that to Alice, and Alice is like, yeah, I got this. You know?
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Totally and your, your story of the rounds and the person in the third person, I--there's a wonderful physician in our town who I absolutely admired. And after leaving medicine, about three years into it, I thought, What is he doing? Like, he--is he got a rattle in his drawer? Like, because there were situations where I knew that he was making decisions based on something other than straight up rules of medicine. But he was so good. And he was so amazing. So anyway, I offered to take him to breakfast. And he told me this amazing story that when he was a medical student, ended up with--I don't remember if it was acute appendicitis, something--where he ended up in the hospital, and he laid in that bed feeling sicker than a dog and the team came in, I think this is in Boston with like 17 doctors, and they talked about him in the third person. He was staring at a ceiling tile, and they talked about him like he wasn't there. And he said that day, Sarah, I just decided, like, when I, you know, as a physician, I am never ever going to ever--like I am going to talk with the patient. I'm going to listen to the patient. And he told me, that's how he makes those decisions. He just sits and listens to the patient. He's like, they'll tell you what, what their outcome's even going to be sometimes, and it's like Wow, okay. So yeah, I think those doctors that pay attention, and many have been initiated like he was, you know.
Mary Louder:Yes, yes. And I had those types of initiation, myself. And I, my appendix, my appendix came out when I was 12. And that's why when I write a book, I'll never have an appendix in it, because it's been taken out. Never forget, the doctor said, you know, I went in there three--two times, two or three times to the doctor's office. And each time I was increasingly worse over a few days, right? And then the pain localized because it starts kind of around the belly button, it might go to the left side, then it finally sits down to the right side is typically the pattern for acute appendicitis. And then I told the doctor that, I was 12, I certainly knew what I felt. And my mom was there, very supportive. And the doctor said, Well, you just have sore stomach muscles from throwing up. To which I said, but I haven't been throwing up. Now I'll never forget, he patted me on the head. He goes, Yes, you have little girl. And like, I remember kind of going, I think I would know if I was throwing up. And then that night, my appendix ruptured. Oh, gosh. And I almost died. And they weren't sure for a number
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:And that fact that you could be like, so of days if I was gonna pull through. Wow. And so I have never, and I will say this and yes, okay. braggadocious been bragging a little bit. I've never missed an appendix on a person, never. I've had to convince surgeons to go in and get the appendix. And it was the same type of thing. They go, how did you know? The CAT scan really didn't show that. The labs were really kind of iffy. I said, it's the look in their eye. So I know that look, been there done that. You know, and so. disrespected as a child, how children gets so disrespected. I've seen that in dentistry, I've seen that, you know, and just treating them that like they are it not smart or treating them? Like they don't know. But like, I think the thing about kids is that they are just--they have a soul and all the wisdom just like we do, they're just in a smaller package and haven't quite learned as much as we have. But gosh, that that's upsetting.
Mary Louder:Yeah. So, I think those types of initiation, the same thing, you know, and I have a sign that says, listen to the patient, they'll tell you what's wrong with them. And on top of that, it's a real tombstone, and it's got the guy who, when he died, and--when he lived and when he died, and it says, I told you, I was sick. And that was from real tombstone. And I had that in my office for 25 years.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Interesting, yeah.
Mary Louder:So, so Alice comes along, she rocks your world, rocks other people's world. But one of the things that I saw was that your creativity went kaboom.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah.
Mary Louder:Because, you know, even when I started working with you, like, I think it was 2020 when I did some work with you, first of all, yes, I got results. So I was like, yes, real deal. Then I did a class, I'm like, Well, this will be interesting to do a class. Kaboom, huge results. And I'm just like, again, real deal. You know, true, pure, shamanic work, end of story, full stop. So, you know, just kudos. And but, but what I saw, over that, even that three year period of time was kaboom, your creativity really jumped.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yeah. Yeah. And I Yes. When I was confused about medicine and Like still in that phase, before I take my sabbatical, I really started to get into decopage, which--this, you know, the old timey art of like cutting images out. I mean, I was gluing stuff on anything that would like, sit still for a minute. I'd like plaster it with like chickens and like vintage, you know, whale images. I mean, I was having a blast. And so creativity was really one of the ways that I kind of restored myself. And in 2020, my mom got sick. And I remember taking--she had lung cancer, and she lived for about two and a half years after that. And I remember taking a starting to take some art classes, right when she got sick, because I was just like, I need something and I want to do this, and just I need some sort of an outlet. I don't even know if that was conscious. I just thought it looked like fun to make some art, and made art the whole time she was sick. And then when she died, it was like, I'm sure people who are adults who've lost their parents can maybe relate to this. It's like it kind of got set free. It was like, I know, it's like it was no longer living my life to please my mother, not that I consciously really thought I was. But once she was gone, boy, I was like, I can do whatever I want, like on a whole deeper, deeper level. And I know she'd want me to be happy. So it was kind of like, I could make more art. And so I've been really, I'm still seeing clients. And I do have a book coming out this spring. But mostly now I'm spending all my free time making art. And it's just like, such a beautiful frontier, and I love it.
Mary Louder:Yeah. And it's beautiful stuff too. So we're going to post all of your resources with the podcast for your website, and your books and your art and all that kind of stuff. So are the people who listen will be able to find you very easily, so, and see your work. So I think that's really good. What I'd like to do is, you know, I--I just have a, I'd like to invite you back a few months from now.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:I would love that.
Mary Louder:And, and I want to turn the tables at that point a little bit. Because in my, you know, when I came to you and wanted to do shamanic work, I was similar, I had no clue what it was. I was interested, I was curious, I just needed something I needed a different modality to reach and I was in a situation different. where I had lost both of my parents within a four month period, the end of 2018 and into 2019. And then I saw you in 2020, I believe it was. And we did a series of of sessions together. And it did something where it just settled and yet opened my soul where nothing else could because of the intensity of the grief. And I--you know, and I remember that we didn't really seek answers. I mean, I had some questions. But it wasn't life altering questions. It was like, Well, what are next steps? Well, some people might say that's life altering, but I'm always in a transformative mode, so it really wasn't. But what it did was just settle a lot of things. What I'd like to do coming back a few months from now is talk about what that has settled. And what, you know, what next steps look like with that. And kind of have that conversation with you. Would that be something that you might invite doing?
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:I would love it. I would love it. And for people who are listening to and maybe want to, maybe they're like, Wow, I wonder if I have a spirit animal. It's like, if you go to my website, which Mary'll put in the--in the information, it's like you can subscribe, and then you'll get access to a journey, which is just almost exactly like the journey I took 15 to--15 years ago to discover my first spirit animal. And I feel like that is probably one of the, the number one thing I recommend for people who are feeling lost or feeling disempowered or feeling stuck. It's just a great way to connect with--yeah, with empowerment, with love, with all these things.
Mary Louder:Yeah. And one of the things too in the class, we have spirit animals for--the class was on writing and writing our memoir. So teaser, yes, I've got one folks and yes, it's coming out. Yes, I'm working on it. And so then, as I'm writing my memoir, I have to write news--newsletters too, right? And so then I thought, well, I don't, I'm like, well, the beastie that I have for my memoir is not the same beastie as my newsletter totally different characteristics.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Hmm, yeah.
Mary Louder:I did a journeying. And so I was like, Okay, who's out there? You know, what is this? Well, the beastie that I got for that is a pronghorn which is an antelope.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Yes.
Mary Louder:And some of the characteristics of that are fast, swift, quick, sharp, precise. And that--and that's how I write my newsletters. And--
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:So cool. And they like those higher altitudes, you know, they're like the hang out, you know, on these like super high cliffs kind of just chilling out.
Mary Louder:The high plains, right? All through the high southwest. And so it was really neat, because I will disclose the spirit animal that I have for my memoir is a tortoise. I'm like, really a tortoise? But there's really a lot of cool characteristics. So y'all will just have to wait till the memoir comes out to see that, but--and what what that's been all about. But it's been, I would say invaluable to my journey as a person and as a physician. And even--you know, I'm still practicing. And I'm, you know, looking at what all the next steps look like. But right now, I'm still practicing very individualized. One-on-One. Small micro practice. And finding working with the folks that want to line up with how I do things has been really absolutely fun.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:That's awesome.
Mary Louder:Beyond just getting answers, they're getting well.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:So beautiful.
Mary Louder:And so yeah, I'm just--I'm honored, I'm thrilled, and I'm thankful for the work that you do and thankful for what you bring to the table and all your skills and giftings and your integrity, and just your heart. And so I--
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Thank you.
Mary Louder:--just really want to thank you for that. And, and I appreciate you being on our podcast today. I think this is going to be a real fun one for folks to listen to. And you know it's not--and it's going to be very healing for them, because it's going to be something that they can get curious about, explore, and find something maybe that they never even considered. That will be such a wonderful, deep resource for them. So I appreciate everything that you've shared today. I appreciate your heart and your soul and everything that you bring. So thank you for being on our podcast.
Dr. Sarah Seidelmann:Thank you so much, Mary. It was just an honor.
