Since You Put It That Way
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Since You Put It That Way
PERMA: Finding Meaning In Lifestyle Changes
Michelle Mandala Nigh and Dr. Mary Louder speak about the importance of meaning in lifestyle changes, and about how one can go about finding that meaning via a method of coaching called PERMA. Rather than setting arbitrary goals, PERMA coaching helps you set goals that are meaningful for your life and your individual outlook--your "why"--and therefore, that are easier to make permanent. Listen to get all the details!
Intro for "Since you put it that way" podcast.
Outro for "Since you put it that way" podcast
Hi, welcome to Since You Put It That Way, the podcast that causes you to look at things from a different perspective or maybe even say, hmm, since you put it that way. So I'm your host, Dr. Louder, Dr. Mary Louder. And it's great to find out what I'm up to, as in, "what's up doc?", or what have you been up to? So we're going to be in conversation today with our health and wellness coach, Michelle Nigh. And we're going to be talking about PERMA, which is an acronym, permanent changes, and finding meaning in the changes that you're making in your health and wellness routine. So rather than setting arbitrary goals, rather than having meaningless work and tread--really being on the treadmill of life, we're actually going to find goals and meaning that help you transform your health and wellness. Stay tuned for our conversation. And thank you for being here, joining us, on Since You Put It That Way. Well, we're back folks, it is the dynamic duo of Michelle and Mary doing Since You Put It That Way. Health Coach extraordinaire, and your very kind and forward-thinking doctor who has since learned, my--I'm in the category called the catalyst where I work with passion and innovation are the two key components of my personality. And they literally scored the same. And somebody said which one's forward? I said, depends on how I put on my socks that day. So, so, so being the catalyst that I am, I am working to continue some great conversation here about health coaching, looking at it really from the mind body spirit. So why do I want that connection? Because we're connected that way on the inside. And I dare anyone to find out that we aren't. And as soon as you think you aren't, you're going to find out how miserable you are until you're reconnected back together, mind-body-spirit. And I think that is a profoundly simple but true statement. And so I think a lot of the internal discord, a lot of suffering that we experience as humans comes because we see mind, body, spirit separately, or things out--you know, that we look to things outside of us, like an external locus of control, when really all the answers are within us. And the more we're connected, mind-body-spirit, the better we have literally what's called a felt sense, something that we can feel on the inside that determines our next steps, our internal guidance, our way forward, our understanding that we're connected to ourselves, and because then we are hard wired for love, belonging, and connection, that connection to ourself first allows us to connect to others. And belonging is something that as humans we all experience. I think the thing that's really important is to share that those are not my words, those words really come from a lot of the teaching, education, and research of Brené Brown, who I'm a student of and it's something that's helped me navigate my world better and really come to grips and understanding more of who I am on the inside and understanding then as a physician, why the role of a health coach on different levels is so important to my practice and the practice that, that physicians should have and I, yes, I did use the word "should." So Michelle, you know, jumping into conversation there, without putting you on the spot, but somewhat putting you on the spot into that point of a good distress level for communication. You know, what do you think, you know, in terms of coaching from your mental health background that you have behavioral coaching, behavioral health coaching and and I do think of emotions and mental health with that, then putting that together with really the health and wellness coaching you know, by combining mind, body and spirit how does that sit with you? How do you sort that out?
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Huh, yeah, everything that you opened up this conversation with Mary is, it's so important the the intersection of mind-body-spirit, one area of us impacting another area of us. It's so common sense, and yet so revolutionary at the same time for, for many people because they have been used to compartmentalizing and, and even our buildings of health are set up in a way that we only approach this part of me, in this building, we approach this part of me in another building, and we don't even discuss emotions in most of it, and that's been an area that's been off limits for people in the vast majority of, of their lives. So creating a safe space for people to begin to, to explore that. You know, Brené Brown, and her work in Atlas of the Heart where she talks about understanding that most people only have a language of three emotions: happy, sad, angry, is where I think a lot of people start in this journey of opening up the integration of mind-body-spirit. So the way that I approach that with with health coaching, and the way I think a lot of coaches do, is through the lens that Martin Seligman created with what's called PERMA. And PERMA is this idea that there are, there are five roads or five aspects, I should say, to flourishing. And flourishing is the word I really love to connect to coaching, because it's moving beyond this realm of survival, into thriving.
Mary Louder:Yes.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:And PERMA stands for Positive emotions, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning, and Accomplishment. So bringing in the idea of emotions into coaching and mental health in general, if someone can create an environment in their lives, where they can increase their experience of positive emotions, looking at things that happened in their past, or things that are happening now, or the way they're looking at the future, if they can start to see things through more of a positive lens, that's going to increase the level of positivity they have in their lives in general. And this is one way that they can--I love to use what I call the compost theory, that any of the experiences you've had in your life, it's all compost for creating what you want to create, now and in the future. So how are you viewing those experiences? Many people come from this, this place of perfectionism, or, or mistakes or failure, I failed at that, rather than with the the growth mindset of that was, that was, that's a sunk cost. That's something that I experienced that moved me further along my journey. And I did learn from it. Let's reframe the idea of mistakes into learning. It's just a much more constructive, proactive way to view things that may have happened in our past.
Mary Louder:So let me ask you a question there. So in seeing that, though, could a person get stuck because of the past triggers them?
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yes.
Mary Louder:So being thought of or being told, Hey, you're never going to amount to something, anything. Hey, you're always an idiot, that's always gonna go bad. So they got this internal dialogue. And then they're to try and reframe that. I would submit that, that where that traumatic event occurs, creating trauma in the body, and then if we use a protocol, such as Self-Compassion and Connection to reconnect them.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yes.
Mary Louder:And, and literally the nervous system gets rewired with that, in a profoundly way, profound way, I should say, then the reframing could maybe stick better, right?
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yes, yes. Because the--when the nervous system is at a place where it's, it's calm, it's going to affect the brain's ability to take in information in a different way, with the, if the prefrontal cortex is is in a relaxed, open state. That can start to be a, the rewiring process that someone needs to move forward. The, the body and mind crave familiarity. So, the way someone has always done something, the way they've always responded, the way they've always reacted, those are those are learned and those are held in the brain until they become rewired. So yes, your your, your, your technique of reconnecting someone to themselves. It--that's--that has to be foundational. In allowing somebody to, to create the capacity for change. Yeah. Yeah.
Mary Louder:That's good. Okay, so that's the P, PERMA, reminds me of permafrost, here, or permanents, if you put those in your hair anymore, right? Okay. So that's the P, Positive emotions, the E is?
Michelle Mandala Nigh:The E is engagement. And engagement can be looked at as how fully involved, absorbed, we are in what we're doing, in the moment, in a flow. Flow has become a bit of a pop word in the last couple of years. But it's, it's a beautiful way to move through your life. Most of us aren't living in the moment. We're not engaged in the moment we're actually in. We're either in the past, or we're thinking about the future. And in the age of social media, and phones, this has become even more challenging to just be in the moment.
Mary Louder:Yes.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:For all of us, it's a it's a struggle. So creating routines or practices that really helped to enhance your ability to engage with right where you are in this moment, can really help somebody in their mental health.
Mary Louder:Okay. All right, so then the R of perma.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:The R is relationships, the big R, relationships. Social connection, of course, it's essential for for humans, we, we, as you started the podcast talking about. Connection. We're wired for connection, we're wired to love, we're--being an, being lonely, being an outcast, being ostracized from our tribe, it's a, it's a very primal fear. And yet, none of us really ever took--I, you know, my dream, elementary school or, or junior high education curriculum would actually just be all about learning about emotions, learning about how to have a healthy relationship with yourself, and how to have healthy relationships with others. This is it's such a, it's a skill. Learning to be in relationship is really a skill, we learn who we are through relationship. And many of us simply model what was shown to us with, with our own family upbringing, and that's not always the most positive environment. So communication skills are a big part of that where, where many people struggle. So, learning skills around that learning how to emotionally coach yourself through tough moments with other people, learning about how your own tendencies or habits may be contributing to discord in relationships. All these are areas that are very, can be effectively helped in, in coaching.
Mary Louder:Yeah, it's interesting because you talk about the distress level. And one of the things I see in our culture is pushing towards an inordin--inordinate amount of safety.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Mm.
Mary Louder:And you know, there is a stress curve or distress curve, and you've got to find the sweet spot. So you have that landing place of learning. So you have enough confusion. You have enough curiosity and questioning and stress on your brain, as it were, to learn something. Without that you're kind of bored, too much of that you're overwhelmed. So the same is true, then, we have this sense of needing to be coddled where something needs to be a safe learning environment. Well, I mean, to me a safe learning environment means the windows not open, the schools not on fire, you know, you can go the bathroom. Right? But in terms of in terms of needing, like not having my thoughts challenged, not having you're having to learn something and buckle down, sit in the chair or stand in the room, whatever. But, you know, being challenged. And having a perspective challenged. Having a discussion about current events, having a discussion about, you know, scientific theory, having a discussion about behavioral theories. And I think if we remain comfortable, we aren't going to learn. Or if we always have to have safety about something.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yeah, yeah, there's really no resiliency that is ever formed unless you create challenge in your life. And it's, yes, I do believe that it's, we're in a bit of a comfort crisis. We have, we have people that are--want to be safe all the time. And, and that may be because of, of trauma they've experienced, but there's also growth that they've experienced since that trauma that they may not be tapping into. And then there's, it's, yeah, there's a spectrum.
Mary Louder:Well, think of the immune system. So if you lived in--if we were the girls in the bubble, right? So the little boy in the bubble. We're the girls in the bubble, right? So what's our bubble look like? Well, nothing. We can't bring anything in there. Right? So our immune system's not exposed to anything, it doesn't remember anything, therefore. So it's an amnesiac immune system that if, then, we stepped out of the bubble, we'd be overwhelmed. Right, but if we have concepts, and that's even how the whole idea of vaccines came about, you know, little bits of this for the immune system to then remember, so if it saw a big dose of that bacteria or virus, it could match response, right. And we've eradicated major health issues and diseases on the planet thanks to vaccines. Okay, I'm not going to go into a vaccine debate, though. That's not the point there. The point of this is about our immune system, remembering and different components of the immune system, are there to increase our resiliency for being in the environment we're in. You know, sometimes we say, well just go--Yeah, it would probably be good for you to go outside and eat dirt because your immune system would be helpful.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Well, it's true, they, the, the adversity that that many people are shunning right now is, I mean, that, that builds muscles, that builds, that, that builds a sense of self-efficacy, that is really important for people to, to thrive, to flourish in life. If you're not, if there isn't something for you to work toward, your vigor, your vitality, it diminishes. And that's a direct impact then on how you feel like you are thriving in your life. I mean, there's so many statistics about when people retire, if they don't have things that are going on that are stimulating them, they, they really struggle. They really suffer. Having it easy is not the way humans are meant to, to live their lives or to--they stop. They, they stop thriving when things are too easy.
Mary Louder:Well, it's interesting, because even thinking about it for hardwired for love, belonging and connection. What, if anything in those three areas would be easy?
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Good point. Yes.
Mary Louder:Fair. All right, moving on. All right. So that was relationships, then the next one?
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Ooh, what--that the M.
Mary Louder:M is what?
Michelle Mandala Nigh:M is Meaning,
Mary Louder:Oh, yeah. What do you mean by Meaning?
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Meaning is our, it's our sense of purpose. It's our why. It's, it's also this feeling of something that's greater than us. And this is where the spirituality can come in. If we don't have something in our lives that creates awe sense of our nature or, or ideas or a higher power, a higher self, a faith, a vision, a sense of belonging, that all that creates meaning in our lives. Or--your--what do you feel like you're--Why, why are you getting up in the morning? Your ikigai, as the, as the Japanese would say, if we don't have that sense of meaning, and our why, this is where we--internally, there's there's no drive to make our external mean anything. There's a really beautiful term called collective effervescence. And this was Emile Durkheim. And it's the idea of individuals sharing a sacred experience as a group, and it creates this... I love that. Collective effervescence, you can just, you can just feel that that's a, that's a meaning. And that that's, I think, what having meaning is one of the things that really separates us from other sentient beings on on this planet.
Mary Louder:Yeah. And meaning-making, finding meaning and making meaning. And finding, finding meaning in what we've experienced.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yes.
Mary Louder:And everything that has occurred, has brought us to what we would say this point.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yeah. And then that would circle back to, are you having positive emotions about that? Or are you--are you, is that part of what is impacting your mental health? Because of what's happened in the past? Yeah. So that's the M,
Mary Louder:Okay, A.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:A! A is accomplishment. It's our feeling of, of success, mastery. Achievement, and in--and part of that is the willingness to take on difficulty, the willingness to experience growth, to take action, to reframe difficulties and failures or mistakes as learning, as part of the process. There's just no way that we can move through life without making what feels like a mistake. It's just, and there's no way that we can--many of us when we set goals, or have a mission we want to accomplish, if we don't kind of put in the back of our mind that there's going to be challenges along the way--we're going to struggle--then many people stop at their first hint of of difficulty, rather than planning that there's going to be difficulty along the way. What, what I find too, with, when I ask people about accomplishing, they often have this idea that accomplishment has to be huge. Like I'm not accomplishing unless I'm writing the great American novel or unless, I'm inventing something new, or if I'm a, you know, top Instagram kind of person. That's, you know, accomplishing is a spectrum. And for some people, just getting through the day is an accomplishment. So this really has to be something very personal to you. Something that is, is meaningful to you. And something that it, when you think about it, it's like yes, I, I did do that. You know, this this is another area where perfectionism has to be taken away.
Mary Louder:Yeah. And so, and that could be an area to insert gratitude.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Oh, yes. Beautiful. Yeah.
Mary Louder:So if you were to write maybe three, I always do odd numbers, you know, three or five things that you could, a person could be grateful for.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yeah.
Mary Louder:Because I find myself sometimes just so wrapped up in everything I'm doing. Yes, it's meaningful. Yes, it's in the moment. Yes, you know, it's in relationship. Yes, yes, yes, but then I forget that anything gets done. Because I look back and go, what was that? And so having to--stepping back and taking a few minutes to write gratitude. And different--for different parts. It could be for maybe some new patients that came to the clinic. It could be for getting an understanding on a different way to treat something. It could be having more insight for a person regarding their particular wellness plan that we've put together or a diagnostic that we came up with and a diagnosis that really helped them or seeing them accomplish something. So bringing the PERMA into coaching. And I, you know, I understand with health coaching, it's about you know, how are you following, following--yeah, how are you following or executing the plan that's putting been put together? How are you, you know, or maybe doing the food choices? How are you maybe doing your exercise? How are you doing your, you know, your stretches? Or, you know, we make things so linear. But thinking about this differently, and connecting the mind-body-spirit would take coaching kind of in a different direction, then, wouldn't it? Because it would help them for meaning-making connection in relationship to themselves?
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yes, yes. Many people know what they should be doing. It's how is what they should be doing relevant to them? How is it something that's going to be important to them? How is it something--what, what impact would what they shouldn't be doing have on this person that they maybe would like to be? It's it's helping people take this kind of nebulous idea of a plan and breaking it down into digestible chunks. What's--what are action steps you can take toward this that will provide the meaning, that will amplify your sense of accomplishment, that will help you have positive emotions, that will allow you to stay engaged? All of the areas that will positively affect your relationships. Usually, when we take a little step towards, towards improvement in our lives, something that's going to make us healthier in mind, body or spirit, it's going to impact every single aspect of our life. So let's, let's talk about that, how, how it would impact that. And usually when you do that, like creates more of a sense of, of inertia. And of, okay, this feels more doable. And this also feels like it's more about me and not what is, not what, what is--
Mary Louder:So when you say inertia, yeah, yeah, put upon you. But when you say inertia, there's two aspects. An object that is not in motion tends to stay not in motion. The object that is in motion tends to stay in motion until another force is placed upon it. And the object that's not in motion tends to stay not in motion, unless you get a nudge, right, tell me where I'm wrong there.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:You're very right. And all of that. But the inertia needs to be come from inside. The momentum and inertia--I can, I can tell people things, you can tell people things, but unless they're intrinsically motivated from inside.
Mary Louder:Yeah.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:And that's where we can talk about a why, you know, why would you want to make changes? What, what is the meaning in this for you?
Mary Louder:And that may come externally, if it's a lab value. That may come externally, if it's a diagnosis. That may come externally, if it's a disruption in a relationship, or a rupture in a relationship, or that may come if there's an injury to the body, or, you know, a loss that we feel emotionally, right? Those things that become what we would call wake-up calls, yeah?
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yes. And the, that, that's usually just the the first level of the why. Because it--when you drill down the whys, more and more and more. And that's a great practice for us to do with ourselves. When you say I want to do this. Why? Why do you want to do that? Ah, and then let's say someone says, I want to lose weight. Okay. Why do you want to lose weight? Well, because I'll be healthier. Why do you want to be healthier? Well, because I--if I don't, I, my, I, my life may be shorter. Why is that important to you to have a longer life? Well, if I don't have a longer life, I won't be around for my family. So your why is more wrapped up in showing up for your family rather than--Yeah, so that's a practice that can really hone in on something that, there's the intrinsic motivation.
Mary Louder:Yeah. That's neat. So that's the PERMA part of it, using and applying that to making a coaching wellness plan or understanding motivation for change, or, you know, why would I even want to use coaching? You know, or why would coaching support me? And I think even just getting past, I honestly am not a fan of the bio hack. Well, we're hacking our genes, we're hacking our health, right? Well, you're hacking all over the sidewalk, would you please clean it up? I just--
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Ew!
Mary Louder:I just don't like that phrase, because I don't think we're meant to be hacked, that just feels so violent to me. I feel we're meant to be understood. And we're meant to have self-compassion. And it's just so contrary to what we typically experienced with ourself.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yeah, yeah, the the self-compassion piece is, is, is key. And that that's where so much of this, our perfectionist culture, with people coming from backgrounds where, where, where mistakes weren't allowed, or they were punished for anything that seemed human. That's--many people never learned self-compassion, and bringing that in to coaching is, for a lot of people when they first start to, to practice it, it, it doesn't feel, it feels extravagant. And that, that can go back to the body and mind, craving familiarity. If, even though things that may not be good for us are--we fall into habits.
Mary Louder:We do. And we resonate with them. And it creates a it creates a crease, or a right or a pathway for resonance. And we resonate with that.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Right, right. So it feels familiar. So it feels right, even though it's not something that's healthy for us. And that's why this feeling of self-compassion for many people feels wrong or indulgent, because it isn't something that they build a neural pathway for.
Mary Louder:It's really a part of common humanity. I think we're, you know, amongst our fellow humans, self-compassion does, perspective taking of our own experience and the experience of others. And then finding that mind-body connection from where we can live. Knowing that the answers are inside of us, we read things outside, but we can apply them internally. So finding for me, finding something that works for the whys in my life, instead of just be the what-fors, two different considerations.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yeah, very different. And it's--and then coaching becomes the how, how once you know your why and once you know the what-for, coaching becomes the how you get there. Remember when we did your coaching several weeks ago, and at the end of it, you said oh, there's actually not that many barriers that, that, that I thought there were.
Mary Louder:Yeah.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:I think that's that's one of the the cool things about coaching and when we look back at when we were kids and we worked with coaches, they were the ones that showed us how to get from here to there. You know, you're building skills you're building a foundation, you're--none of us are good at things right away. We, we need to take it in in steps and cultures help you see things are not necessarily--see that the barriers aren't there, or that if there is a barrier, how do we transcend this barrier? How do we get past it?
Mary Louder:Yeah, because sometimes it's just execution of what needs to be done, understanding and execution, and sometimes it's coming back for more clarity.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yeah, yeah, having that reflection you know, when you can talk to somebody and really hash you know, what worked, what didn't worked--what didn't work. It's it's funny that it took me a long time to actually like the word coach, because it, it means a lot of different things. But I've come to think about how it-many of the important, important people in my life have been coaches, coaches that that helped me through different times, whether they were, they were teachers or mentors that I've had, they coached me through, through tough times. And when we're adults, many of us don't have as many ac--as much access to perhaps, to mentors or to coaches. And I think it becomes even more important as you--
Mary Louder:It does. And I think, you know, bringing this ending this conversation as we, you know, unfortunately need to, but we're going to have to pick it up later. Thinking about the statistic that the first time I ever spoke with you that you shared with me. Of 100 people, five people need it--we're talking mental health, five people need a physician, maybe a psychiatrist, or a good--
Michelle Mandala Nigh:One.
Mary Louder:One. Oh, Thank you. One. Five people. No.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:One needs a psychiatrist.
Mary Louder:Yes.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:25, 24 would need a therapist.
Mary Louder:Yep.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:The other 75 would need coaching.
Mary Louder:There you go. That's it. So we--thank you for clarifying my statistics. The point is, we all could use a great coach.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Yeah.
Mary Louder:The vast majority of us, dare I say. Could use a great coach. So you know, the resources are there--I just wanted, you know, thank you again, Michelle, for coming on continuing our discussions. We're going to, you know, have more coming up different topics and mental health and physical health going forward. But thank you again, for coming back into conversation to help us have a deeper understanding of what coaching is.
Michelle Mandala Nigh:Thank you. Yeah.
Mary Louder:And stay tuned, folks for our next episode coming up. But thank you for being here, during this time, as we talked about, the importance of mind-body connection with coaching, and, you know, look at the website for resources. If you want to reach out to Michelle, you can do so through our website and get some coaching done for yourself or with yourself and with her. And we'll go from there. So thank you again for listening, everybody. We'll see you next time on Since You Put It That Way.
