Since You Put It That Way
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Since You Put It That Way
What’s Up with Fascia, and Why is it So Important?
In this episode of Since You Put It That Way, Dr. Mary Louder and Dr. Megan Pass delve into the fascinating world of fascia. Discover why fascia is crucial to your overall health and how you can transform your understanding and relationship with this vital connective tissue. Tune in to learn about the techniques and insights that can help you unwind and care for your body’s fascia.
Intro for "Since you put it that way" podcast.
Outro for "Since you put it that way" podcast
Hi, and welcome to another episode of Since You Put It That Way. I'm your host, Dr. Mary Louder. Today we're going to be continuing in discussions with our physical therapist, Megan Pass. We're going to be talking about fascia. Fascia is the connective tissue that surrounds and supports all parts of the body--muscles, organs, nerves, joints, bones--and it plays a crucial role in movement and function by providing that support, as we talked about. It helps to reduce friction, and it also transmits not just mechanical tension, but we find there that it's driven by hormones. It's driven by the nervous system, primarily the autonomic nervous system that fight/flight mechanism and influences from our environment. So I think that this is going to be a great conversation, and it's going to open your mind a little bit. It's going to cause you to pause and say, hmm, since you put it that way, which is our fun tagline with this, and I hope that you enjoy the discussion and communication and conversation that I have with Megan. Thanks for tuning in, and always remember to both review and rate our podcast. That helps us to understand what you're listening to and your feedback and helps us also to do a better job. Thanks very much, and enjoy the podcast. Well, Hi, Megan, welcome back. How are you today?
Megan Pass:I am doing so well. Thank you so much for having me back for another conversation. Really excited about this.
Mary Louder:Yeah, you're very welcome. So, so I think you know, fascia is something that as we describe it, as we, we're going to talk about it--really, we're going to have multiple podcasts about this, and pretty much every conversation we bring in whenever we talk about together, will involve fascia in some level. So first, Megan, give me what--your working definition of fascia. What if I'm a if I'm a patient and I know nothing, what would you say to me? What's fascia, Megan?
Megan Pass:So fascia is basically an organ, but I only say that because it's encompassing. It's the connective tissue that holds you together. It's the 3d spider web that helps give your soft tissue shape. So it's the web, like the cobweb, but then within that web is your cells and the extracellular matrix, which is all of the fluid and that is outside the cell, that also helps create our shape. So I, you know, most people think about fascia as, like, The Fuzz, that YouTube video that went viral about this is what fascia is, or they talk about where you peel that thin sheet off of a chicken breast. Well, that's only one type of fascia. Like, fascia is all-encompassing. Like, how do you think your organs stay in place in your belly?
Mary Louder:Fascia.
Megan Pass:Fascia!
Mary Louder:Oh, okay, good.
Megan Pass:Yeah. Like, what gives your nose its shape and helps connect it to the bones on your skull?
Mary Louder:Cartilage and fascia.
Megan Pass:Cartilage and fascia, but fascia helps create that connection between the cartilage and the fascia, and what also goes through cartilage and then goes into your bone, Fascia. So if we want to think about it on a really simplistic way, fascia is in every, every place in your
Mary Louder:Fascia. body, within every organ, every bone, every cartilage, tendon, muscle, ligament, etc. It's truly the connective tissue that holds us together. Okay, so that sounds very structural in its description.
Megan Pass:Well, I am a, I am a physical therapist, so that is where I go first.
Mary Louder:Right. Okay, great. So, and then I'm the functionalist in the group, apparently. So because structure and function always go together.
Megan Pass:Yep. So then, so then when I start talking about fa--so, you asked when I first introduced fashia to people, that's how I first introduce it, is because it's the best way for people to, like, grab onto it. Once I start working with movement, and we start looking at, okay, how does the movement and how does our fascia work with our movement, then that's where function comes in. And function of posture, function of how you choose to move your leg, function of how you even choose to open your mouth--choose consciously and subconsciously. Fascia is the director of all of that. And then, because fascia is our extracellular matrix, that fluid, it also decides, like, how is it going to hide toxins, or how is it going to help with the flow of fluid through your body, or how is it going to help with all of the ways that your body just functions? But then movement can help facilitate your fascial health, or it can decrease your fascial health. It just like there's consequences for it all.
Mary Louder:Okay, so then that's some function. The other function is how embryologically, when we were developing, it developed--fascia developed with the blood vessels and with the nervous system, and it ran parallel with that. So then it--translation, as we grew, it intermingled. And so then you've got that function of fluid transfer through the fascia, and then you get to diffusion of the cells, which you get that free fluid, which then goes back into the lymph, which then is emptied into the veins, which then is part of the circulation. So also, if fascia takes that and sends, say, from the abdomen to the heart, it's sending a message. Fascia is sending a message from the abdomen to the heart, and it tells the heart to do something. If it's full of, say, inflammatory messengers like cytokines or C-reactive proteins or leukotrienes, which are all part of inflammation, guess what? We've just defined an endocrine organ.
Megan Pass:Yep.
Mary Louder:An endocrine organ and a hormone is something that takes a message from one part of the body to the other, and fascia lines the blood vessels. It's in the blood vessels.
Megan Pass:It's in everything. And this is why I say fascia is an organ. You know, I started training in myofascial release in 2014 and at that time they--Guimberteau, Dr. Guimberteau was just starting to come out with all of his videos where he's a hand surgeon, he's a French hand surgeon, and he has been videoing fascia, and if you like, you can find him on YouTube and and what it showed was fascia as a living structure, as a living thing. And yet, the minute we die, our fascia no longer has function. And then when you go into a dissection lab as a healthcare provider, it really is that fuzz to get out of the way, because it, just like all of the embalming just stops it. And yet, when, just as you said, embryologically, that makes no sense as a living human.
Mary Louder:Right. So then--I'm just pausing. I told you this might be a pause cast instead of a podcast. So, what is--so, all right, jumping off a ledge here, both feet, head first. Is that where the soul is?
Megan Pass:Oh, is that where the soul is? You know, I think it's a piece of it. I believe our soul is anchored in every area of our body. And there are, there are anchor points in various places. I, in my work, I have seen with fascial--myofascial release, people access past life memories. People access somatic responses that they didn't know were there, suppressed memories in this life that they've--trauma that they've forgotten about and are able to process through. So is it the soul or is it the mind?
Mary Louder:Yes. How's that for an answer? Yes. So, I tend to lean towards it being the soul, because I see the soul as responding to the echo, or being an echo, responding to the call, going outward, as well as the call coming inward. I see that the soul having, you know, being bi-directional or multi-directional, really more, probably more than two, with respect to how it's functioning and responding. And the reason why I wonder about the soul and fascia and the mind and fascia is because the memories, you're right, can be hidden there. Trauma's hidden there. One of the things I was looking at in terms of fascia says, well, it, it works in suspension, protection, retention, separation, shock absorption and pressure attenuation. All of those words are protective. So the fascia is protecting us as well. And so I wonder if that's just not where all the fight or flight stuff is held, is in the fascia.
Megan Pass:You know, I have been actually sitting with this very inquiry over the last couple days, because is, is that where the fight or flight is held, or is that where we've been programmed into this fight or flight? Because the people that I know, who are the most heart-opened, most embodied, soul essence, who take care of their body temple, they their fascia is healthy and it functions and it's thriving. So is all the, all those words regarding protection, but is that the dis-ease of fascia? Because fascia, I think its purpose is to allow our greatest function.
Mary Louder:Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Pass:And to allow us to have the greatest ease and flow Because--
Mary Louder:I fully agree. And so in some places, and if, and in our life. And ease and flow is the connection to the divine, which is the soul. I think of the soul as like, like a antenna receiver, and it's the signal that we're getting. And so it makes me wonder more about like, our psyche and what we're as we're recording this, in case anybody hears pitter patter, we programmed as humans, as Homo sapiens, and our how we are wired through our DNA, yeah, and then that marriage to the soul and that fascia really, truly being the access to both. have a thunderstorm in the, as we're recording this. So, great for the rain and great for the recording. And so I think maybe the, you know, in folks who, who encounter trauma in such a way, traumatic events in such a way, that creates the trauma in the body, the highest and the most free they could function could be to a moderate level, because that's just all things that unfolded for them. So I would agree fully, and we might just be seeing a continuum of function relative to being really super free, healthy, and fascia flowing and moving and grooving and all that kind of stuff. And then hang ups in the fascia.
Megan Pass:Yeah, yeah.
Mary Louder:So practically, you know, I think of when I was trained, you know, in, in physical therapy, athletic training, everything was kind of linear. We moved our joints in a plane of motion that occurred with the joint, typically meaning your knees are hinged, so you extend and flex. Extend and flex. We moved our shoulder in a windmill plus to the side, abduction across the body, adduction, flexion, extension. And we didn't really think much about fascia until they had, all of a sudden a frozen shoulder, and then they did stuff called PNF, proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation, which moved in neuromuscular fibrous, fibro, you know, more fascial patterns, even, sort of. Yeah.
Megan Pass:Yeah.
Mary Louder:So, but there's an evolution. I mean, so, you know, people know that they can lift a kettle bell, they can go to the weight room. What do you recommend for, you know, if, if a person's doing pretty well and wants to keep their fascia in good stead--what would you say?
Megan Pass:So I think where I go is what mobility work is being done, because we live in such a culture that is like, go, go, go, go and get stronger, get stronger, get stronger, and get stronger, and yet, how flexible are you? Like, how much pain do you have in your day to day? And you know, this is where I'm a lover of the yogic traditions and Pilates. I am a Pilates certified instructor, and it--coming into the more repetitive and subtle and stretching like fascia with strength training and people who are feeling really strong, and now I'm talking more to like the really, like the people who are strong. Like, if you have knots or you feel tight, your fascia is not healthy. It's limiting you. It's protecting you. Where, if you feel free and can move easily in your body, then your fascia is fairly healthy. And so I think it comes down to--we just had a big slam outside. I think it really comes down to just how do you feel, do you feel loose, open and free? And if you feel loose, open and free, then your fascia is doing well. If not, then it comes down to some really gentle stretching and sustained stretching and holding it--like we're talking like five minutes people, a lot of fascial stretching out there says two to three minutes. And really that just means you get through the first collagenous barriers. There--the change, the chemical change starts to happen to allow your extracellular matrix to melt at about the five-minute mark. And so it's being in that stretch and sinking deeper and deeper in a way that your body can handle, and you can still breathe. You can still take good breaths, and your nervous system is calm. You're not freaking out, because--and then, like, really letting it sink in, and finding those mobility, finding the mobility in that way, it's, to me, it's about slowing down and being present within your body, allowing yourself to feel your body and being okay with whatever you feel, whether that's discomfort or whether that's ease, and letting go of the judgment of it. And this is why I believe the fascia is the mind. Because a lot of people, they get into a stretch and they're like, No, I can't do it. That hurts. Or, Oh, I'm going to hurt myself. And I tell people, like, your body isn't going to betray you. Like, injuries happen because of repetitive trauma, where you're you're pushing, pushing, pushing, and you're not listening to your body, or injuries happen because you fall or have, like, something big happen, like, so it's you're not going to stretch into something, into an injury, if you are paying attention to what your body's telling you. And so at least I've, I've seen patients do it when they force a stretch, but if you stay gentle in the stretch, it can't really happen. Like--
Mary Louder:So, so you're asking them to tune into their body.
Megan Pass:Bingo.
Mary Louder:Okay, so 97% of what we do every day is in our subconscious. Okay, so we've got to activate that 3% and expand that.
Megan Pass:Mm-hm.
Mary Louder:Now genomically, when folks do our genomic test, we can look at some genes that might lend them towards soft tissue injuries. Interestingly, we can look at their genes involved with recovery. We can look at genes that help point towards endurance or power activities. And so what I talk to them about is, okay, you're more endurance. You don't want to go to that fit class and throw the tire around, because you're not a power person, you know? Or if they are really power, that's great. And so then the interval training is what you need to do over here. And then the stretching becomes looking at what you can pay attention to, what you can be mindful about, and what then, and learning even when a tolerance is. And so I have people go up to that pain and then back off just a little bit and then lean back into it.
Megan Pass:Yeah, that's one way to do it. I generally teach it, where do you feel the first gentle pull? Because I don't have the genome testing in front of me, and there are pathologies that stretching can actually cause injury, including Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, which seems to be on the rise. And so, I actually have them just go to where you first feel that gentle pull, and then wait there, and then if that disappears, sink a little deeper, sink a little deeper. We still want to feel that tension. And then some people--and then I just walk them through it, and we do it together. And some people are like, Oh, it's really hurting. And I say, Okay, what does that pain feel like? And so it is exactly what you're talking about, is bringing people inward, into our bodies and to remember that our bodies are here, like--we are not our bodies. We are our soul. And yet our bodies are here to work with us in conjunction for whatever we're here to do on this earth. And so really, truly, it is about learning to feel your body and to feel your fascia.
Mary Louder:Okay, so I just kind of had this little
epiphany:we get injured because we're not connected to our body, and the way to heal is to actually connect to our body.
Megan Pass:Yep, that's my job, in a nutshell.
Mary Louder:So had we been connected to our body, we might not injure our body. Okay. So, all right, so that makes perfect sense. Okay, so let's look at an injury. Let's look at a fall and go boom. Okay, somebody slipped on the ice. You know, we live in the Midwest, fall and go boom. Right? Midwinter, you know, you're hustling through the out from the grocery and kaboom, you know, you slip on the black ice and you land on one side of your cheek, not the other. So you, so, so, you land on your right buttock.
Megan Pass:Yeah.
Mary Louder:Walk me through what you see, how you unwind, and just kind of give us an overview of how this fascia drives all that,
Megan Pass:Yeah, so, that's actually a really common fall, and then coming back to what you said, you're rushing and you're hurrying, and you slip and go boom. So, once again, an injury comes because we aren't paying attention.
Mary Louder:Right.
Megan Pass:And subconsciously or consciously, and so, being in that present moment, you would have seen the black ice, most likely, if you're truly in that present moment, and you were educated to see what black ice is. So like, if--so just to, like, drive that point. But then, okay, what would I do? Someone falls on their right cheek. You know, I first look at posture and alignment, and let's see where your bones are, because fascia holds your bones in alignment. Your bones don't hold yourself in alignment. Your fascia holds your bones.
Mary Louder:Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. What? Say that again?
Megan Pass:So, fascia holds your bones in alignment. Not your bones holding their bones in alignment, but what's attached to your bones fascia, whether that's in the form of ligaments, whether that's the form of tendons, whether it's in the form of fascial sheaths or nerves exiting in your spine or blood vessels or lymph, like, it, it's your fascia. And so your fascia is what holds your bones in position, really strongly with our pelvis and our spine and our shoulders, because our shoulders are just floating. So it really--so I look at that. I look at their standing posture first and foremost, if someone comes into me and they fall, boom, I would go, okay. And then I also listen to their story, because their emotion and what they told themselves about their story plays out in how their fascia is responding and how their fascia is going to allow them to heal. And this comes back to the mind and the soul living in the fascia. And so then we do an assessment, and my first thing is, let's get pelvis in alignment, and it usually takes anywhere from five to eight minutes. It's a really simple technique. It usually doesn't hurt. And then we can start assessing spine and hip and knee. But if that pelvis is not in alignment, then we have just created a unstable foundation. So think of a crack in a house.
Mary Louder:Yeah. So pause here for a minute, because what I see when folks come in as an acute injury, then as a physician, we call it a sprain, yeah? And so we sprained it. We sprained our low back. Alright, work with me on this, Megan, you just did, you did three eye rolls. That wasn't a one eye, that was three. Okay, so there's a sprain. So you've got an acute inflammatory--this is what we're taught. So let's walk through this. Talk that it's an acute inflammatory reaction, ligaments, muscles. Rarely do we talk about a bone being bruised and tendons and soft tissue. And sometimes a person could develop a bruise from the fall, and there--what we feel is muscle tension on one side more than the other, often. We feel that and we see that the range of motion, meaning bending forward, hurts. Sometimes they're leaning because everything's in spasm. And so then, as an osteopath, you know, I, you know, they come to me for an adjustment, quote-unquote, they come to me for a treatment. They come to me--sometimes I can't even get at the tissue because it's just hard as a rock. And so then how I approach that is ice, heat, ice heat to break up the pain spasm cycle. And NSAID, are--so that would be like an ibuprofen or naproxen, and then maybe a muscle relaxant, then go away and come back in a few days and we see what can we can do.
Megan Pass:Yeah. I mean, in--when I practiced in Oregon--
Mary Louder:I'm not challenging you, what honestly I'm doing is putting the two--
Megan Pass:The two side by side, yep. And I totally agree with you. In Oregon, because I had direct access, like very quick direct access in my practice act, versus here in the Midwest, I would see more acute but what I found was, if I gently help their bones come back into alignment, the spasms decrease significantly. And then if they didn't, then it was like, Okay, let's get a physician on board to help out. So it's just another example, everyone, that there are multiple ways to treat. There are multiple ways to address injuries and there--and your response that you're going to get is going to depend on the practitioner you choose to see.
Mary Louder:Well, and the other thing too is so you do the slip and fall, you get up, you get the groceries home, you're kind of sore, but you think, oh, I'll just pull the ice on this. I'll take a Tylenol, I'll take an ibuprofen. I'll go to bed. You know, see what happens. They get up next morning, they can hardly move. So, through no fault of their own, and just through really regular conditioning of how we've taken care of ourselves, we get kind of stuck.
Megan Pass:Yeah, And I think that comes into exactly what you said, the conditioning. I mean, I think about my I have a young daughter, and her response to pain, my mom tells me, is the same as mine. She falls, she like, looks around, sees if anyone reacts, and then goes, Huh, that hurt. Okay. And gets up and continues, moving on. And so it's like, she just accepts it as a fact of life. It's really only for her if there's, like, if there's scraped skin and she ends up bleeding. And, and so, it makes me then wonder, like, as a kid or as parents, like, how can we help build this resiliency, that if an injury happens, how do we like, what do we do to take care of our bodies? In my house, I was taught, oh, you fall? Okay, you keep it moving, and you're going to be, quote, I'm picking this up from living out west, "stoved up"--
Mary Louder:Yeah, yeah.
Megan Pass:The next morning, until you get things moving again, and once they get moving, then life feels better. I mean, I know I have that, and I'm not like, I'm good, middle aged, and the mornings like I feel a little stiff, and then I get moving, and things feel better. And that's just magnified to the hunter's degree when we have a slip and go boom.
Mary Louder:So, so I'm hearing you say, then it's get to care sooner. And then if they is there something that they can know to stretch a certain way, for low back, one side versus the other, that they can get into those deeper stretches, you know, just to see if that can help them, or do they really need this to be guided?
Megan Pass:You know, so here's the thing about an acute injury. That's where I don't do fascial stretching. I don't. Because--and the reason comes back to what you spoke about with the embryology at the beginning, where fascia is like in that same extension of our nervous system. And when we have an injury, our nervous system is already on really heightened awareness. And so, if we're in a lot of pain and we're already in that heightened awareness, I'm not going to say let's do fascial stretching right now, because that would--that is enough to send most people off the deep end. So then that is about creating stability, turning on your muscles that have turned off because of the pain inhibition response, which is a very normal thing, and that is about doing--like, and I have a very specific set of exercises that are coming out in the course soon, about how we can turn the stability back on after an injury and in the morning, so that our brain can remember what it's like to be stable. And then when our brain remembers what it's like to be stable, then we can get into some fascial stretching.
Mary Louder:So the key is to keep moving, really, too. So if they fall like that, and they can't get in to see someone for a few days, I what I, you know, could make an assumption about would be, walking would be helpful, as long as there's not a lot of pain with walking, right? Don't carry things on your back or, you know, satchels and things that lean you one way or the other, right? And maybe some things basic, like what--
Megan Pass:You know, ice and heat is great, depending on whatever helps your body feel better, because it's a nervous system down regulation, so it's, which is what walking does. Now, when you're you fall and go boom, and you wake up the next morning, you're like, I can't move. Notice that that scared response. Like, that is actually going to make things tighten up even more. So that's why movement is good that feels safe. So walking is a great one. Um, cycling, if that's something that people enjoy and you can like, it doesn't hurt, like, I always tell people, like, if you're doing something for five minutes and your pain is about the same, or slightly less, you're doing exactly what your body needs to do. If the pain increases, then we're going, Okay, it's not quite safe for your body. And then it's ice or heat can really help decrease that scared response, which heightens pain. I can't recommend NSAIDs because I'm a physical therapist, but like, it's a very common use and--get in to see someone, but also know that a lot of the time you're gonna feel better in about a week to two weeks.
Mary Louder:So if it's also in the nervous system, and it's a fight or flight, because it's going to be, your scared response is your fight or flight. That could be where, you know, we've got the Self Compassion and Connection. You know, and the, the statement goes, even though... you fill in
Megan Pass:Yeah, and I'm just going to say it. You know, we as the blank, I deeply and completely love, trust, and accept myself. I choose to connect and reconnect with myself. And what I have found in doing that, that brings literally that concept, the dissociation, it brings that person back into connection with themselves. And we do see a decrease in pain. Because we do a pain response level, subjective level, before we start that and say that statement, and then we repeat a couple statements otherwise, and we literally can get people from like a 10 down to three, down to two, and then they can get up and walk around, and we haven't even touched them. Yep, I haven't applied osteopathic treatment. I haven't stretched them, I haven't realigned their sacrum, and we've reached that through the concept of the fight or flight or scared cycle, or scared response, rather. humans are meant to exist in love. And first and foremost, self-love. And that's what you just said, like even though... I deeply and compassionately love myself and that, that is where healing is, that's where the magic is. That's where I believe we all can heal ourselves and when we get stuck, that's what we're here for. But truly, if love can heal and, and that is the soul work of this place, and that is truly the union of the soul into the physical form, to embody the soul into the physical, physical form when we are in the fight or flight and when we're in the fear and the pain and that's all we can feel, we're just going into separation. We're just going into, oh, that's not me, that's not me, that's not me. And you're also disconnecting yourself from love, which love is the divine, whatever name. I'm just, I'm going there. And whatever name we want to give the--a higher being, and so in this love, we can heal.
Mary Louder:Yes, well, and that, you know, the body has a self healing capacity, the wisdom and is wired and designed for self healing. And we don't sit around and watch a cut heal. I mean, we could, if we have nothing else to do, but that's not our best job. You know, we might clean it up after we get a cut, bring the edges together, put a band-aid on it, and then check it in the morning. But we're not like, I'm sorry I can't, I'm sorry I can't come outside tonight and play because I'm watching my finger heal.
Megan Pass:Well, and that's--but that's like, the magic of our body is we don't have to watch it heal.
Mary Louder:It knows inherently what to do.
Megan Pass:Bingo. And so I like, ultimately, yes, I do fascial work, yes, I teach movement, but it's really what has shifted so much in the last eight years of my career is connecting people into their body and allowing themselves to feel, and then once they can feel, you have choice. Without awareness, you have no choice. And then that choice is then where truly the magic happens. Like I can release fascia all day long, and it will truly, honestly only hold if the person's energetics are able to shift with the physical release.
Mary Louder:Yes, yes, I fully agree with that. And the same thing that I see when I treat chronic illness. Unless I get into the emotional component, the reconnection of themselves back to their body and the the gentle observation versus the loud judgmental criticism, then we can actually bring healing and see the body actually heal, versus coming up to so far and only getting so far.
Megan Pass:Yep.
Mary Louder:So, it sounds like we've got lots more things to talk about. I mean, I'm thinking areas of chronic pain, you know, chronic swelling, you know, different things that drive autoimmunity and how that affects fascia and all that kind of stuff, so--and then I think breaking down some of the things that you're developing now, the exercises, the, the different programs, the pilates and the, you know, the stuff that you're bringing forward now, I think is going to be really crucial, because I see, you know, more and more people really, two
things:they want, they want help, but they want to figure it out themselves. You know why? Because everybody's Googling it right. If they didn't want to figure it out, they wouldn't Google it right? But that also tells me they're not getting answers. Okay, well, guess--we've got two people here who have lots of answers, and we get paid for our opinions. That's a joke, folks. But we do! Trust me, I have lots of 'em. More than enough.
Megan Pass:Don't we, don't we all, in our society, get paid for our opinions?
Mary Louder:No, no. And when I started to get less pay--being paid less for my opinions, I left that system because I thought my opinions were really worth something. So I think that that's really important. But, okay, so I think though, in you know, getting your physician, your provider, your physical therapist, get them on your team, get someone you can talk to, spend time with, really problem solve. And work at it, and also understand the choices that you have as a patient, understand the choices that you have and and I know you love this word, Megan, the sovereignty you have as an individual. And we translate that into medical terms called informed consent, same thing, but I look at that as a sovereignty too. What are your choices? How do you want this to look and how do you want to go forward? So, I think what we need to do to go forward is just to prepare more podcasts on fascia and talk about things. And, you know, I think it would be fun to go into neck pain and jaw pain and, you know, and just really kind of pick apart that whole pain concept and that pain spasm cycle and the pain response that we have and and really look at that and kind of break things down, of a lot of the common things we deal with all the time.
Megan Pass:Yeah, it'd be really interesting. Um, headaches would be another one I would throw in there.
Mary Louder:Totally fun. Yeah. Then, then I think we have to go totally tubular, meaning hollow and solid organs, talking about the different organs in the body and the effects of fascia on the organs. Also looking at that, and that's just--here, so here's a question we'll leave you know, so is the heart a hollow organ or a solid organ?
Megan Pass:I would say a hollow organ.
Mary Louder:It is. Oh, extra credit. Good job. How about the brain, hollow or solid organ. I mean, think of it. They're kind of, people are kind of thick.
Megan Pass:I would say it's a hollow organ because it folds in on itself.
Mary Louder:It is a hollow organ! Exactly correct.
Megan Pass:And it has this cerebral spinal fluid that, now I'm really forgetting my neuro anatomy, but in the center of the brain. So, yep.
Mary Louder:Exactly. Okay. So the difference between a hollow and the solid organ are the hollow organs are dense. They have more cells and increased oxygen requirement. So think of kidney, spleen, liver, gallbladder--not gallbladder, but the pancreas, excuse me. And then the hollow organs are going to be like your stomach and your intestines, tubes, bladder, potential spaces, things like that. And, of course, the heart and and and the brain. Good job. Extra credit for you. My goodness, that was really good. So, and it's interesting because the fascia, because the fascia goes inside and around all of these organs, it also pulls on that. So the question I have is, how does that influence chronic illness, hypertension, cardiovascular disease, Megan, I know you're just going, ping, ping, ping. So we're not just going to be talking about, you know, falling and going boom, but we're going to be talking about, really the fascia and how it affects our entire being. So that that's going to be really fun.
Megan Pass:Yeah, it's going to be really fun. And it's for those who are like, going, Wait a minute, how does physical therapy do this? There are many teachers and trainings that have been around for 40 and 50 years that have been teaching PTs and massage therapists how to do this, and osteopaths are probably the first ones that were accepted and in the medical field as the the manual modalities, too. So for those who are like, going, wait, no, PTs don't do that. Yeah, we can.
Mary Louder:Yeah, you can, yeah. And so that's all visceral, all that. And so the guts are called visceral. The organs are called visceral. So we call it visceral manipulation, so visceral fascia. So that's going to be, that's going to be really fun to go into that.
Megan Pass:Yep, that's a really fun one, and I also really love to talk fluids with fascia. So, oh, okay, which is for you guys, that is like blood pressure, like circulation, swelling, all of that, that's, it's a really important concept, because fascia supports our hollow organs, very much so, because fascia itself is hollow.
Mary Louder:So, potential, I'm just going Ding, ding, ding, potential. So for folks who don't, who have arm--who are borderline, for things not malignant hypertension, where you're like 200 over 120 but if you're at 140 over 90, if you're 137 over 85 there's ways to change that fashion and bring that down. If you're on two blood pressures, could we get you to one blood pressure medicine? Yeah, yeah.
Megan Pass:And I've had patients where that has definitely happened, and I know for myself, when I first started as a practitioner of myofascial release, I got a ton of treatment because, like, how do you learn? You get it done to you, and then you do it.
Mary Louder:Good thing you weren't a surgeon. You'd have a bunch of surgeries.
Megan Pass:No, thank you. And I know my blood pressure dropped from like 120 over 80 to 105 over 65 and that just felt really, really good and really easy. So, and that, like, so that is just something that happens, because if we increase our mobility, it's going to decrease the pressure on our fluids, and then things can flow easier. To give everyone just a little bit of a teaser there.
Mary Louder:All right, oh boy, we got lots to do, don't we? Okay. All right, so we better sign off today so we can come back and do this again another day, and, and so, for our listeners, this is the introduction to fascia. So, thanks everybody who's been listening to Since You Put It That Way with our physical therapist, Megan Pass, and myself, Dr, Mary Louder. And Dr Pass, as she goes by, really, will come back, or Megan, Dr. Megan, will come back and continue this conversation. So thanks very much. See you guys next time.
