As
you very much for joining Sharon, thank you very, very much for joining me today.
SH
No problem at all very pleased to be here.
AS
So we're here today to, I guess, investigate the issues around the livestock methane emissions and what can be done about them. And from from my perspective, the methane isn't actually an issue for the animals the methane is the animals attempt to the animals process to get rid of the excess hydrogen within the rumen. So do you want to dig into that side of things a bit more for us, please?
Unknown 0:47
Sure. No problem. Yes, it's it's a process with ontogenesis is a process that's evolved over many, many years. And it's very natural for those ruminants to want to get rid of hydrogen. Because if you have too much hydrogen buildup in the in the room and in particular, you will see some issues coming in. So you'll see the change in the room and microbiome, and there might be some health issues that come in for the animal. So it's a good thing to to remove the hydrogen that's in the room and fluid.
Unknown 1:26
Do you want to wait what other options are there to removing the hydrogen other than
Unknown 1:34
soy? So when an animal eats storage that forage is full of carbohydrates, so they break it with us they break it down, they produce hydrogen which is used by the methanogens, but also on the other side. They also produce the volatile fatty acids, and they give the animal their energy. So I'm in the production of some of those, we call them VFAs for short, so I'll call them the effects. They also utilize some hydrogen to make some of them like propionic for example. So if you can shift the biochemistry a little so that some of that hydrogen is shuttled to energy that will also reduce methanogenesis because there'll be less hydrogen available.
Unknown 2:28
Excellent. Well, that sounds that sounds like a potential Win win because you're capturing the energy inside the animal as well as mitigating the climate side of things. Do you want to tell us what you're doing in that space?
Unknown 2:43
Yes, of course, no problem. So we, we work with a range of dietary interventions to reduce methane emissions. So and most of them actually reduce the process of methanogenesis but in actual fact, when you reduce that pathway, you end up with quite a lot of hydrogen. And in fact, at the minute the farmer in most places, they get paid for production and not for reducing methane. So in fact, if we can reduce methane, and also redirect the hydrogen into an energy source, that's hugely beneficial. So that's what we're trying to do. Find ways in which we can capture that unused hydrogen as well so that there's a you get more meat or you get more milk.
Unknown 3:36
And what tools are you will do to just outline the process. Yeah, one of the one of the things and this is correct me if my understanding of this is not 100% Correct. But if if you look at cancer treatments over the last 10 or 15 years and how they've been revolutionized through the next generation, genomic sequencing technology and people that had a diagnosis that even four or five years ago would have made they only had weeks or months to live, and now we're having longer and and and much more productive lives and much worse outcomes. And from my understanding, what you're looking at doing is pointing some of that same technology out the room and microbiome to actually understand what's going on. Is that Is that correct?
Unknown 4:27
Yeah, that's That's true. So what we use ohmic technologies quite often so they'll be sequencing technologies, so that we can understand what makes an animal a low methane emitted in the first place. You know, what microbes do they have because it's highly likely that they have an abundance of bacteria in particular that can act as a hydrogen cig. So they shuttle the hydrogen away from methanogenesis. So that those technologies have helped us a lot but we're also increasingly going into what's called cultural technologies. So we actually isolate pure cultures of some of those might ruin microbes, particularly bacteria, and look at the capacity to hydrogen sinks. So how well do they use hydrogen in the process of making a VFA and then those candidates they can be used almost like a probiotic. So the probiotic alongside a mitigation measure that might also reduce methanogenesis will give you enhanced meeting reductions, but the animal will also produce more.
Unknown 5:48
So solving, solving the problem for because if if we want to solve the climate problem, we need to look beyond just the meat and we need to look at what the issue for the animal is it by solving the animals problem, then we'll solve the climate problem at the same time is that
Unknown 6:09
absolutely. You know you always use this strapline you know that women microbiome is really important for planetary health. And then, you know, that is for the health for the animal, or the health for the products that are produced for human consumption, and for environmental health. But if we look at just the axis of animal health and environmental health, you know, if we have a healthy animal that has a low infection burden burden, for example, a low parasitic load, you know, they're going to produce more of the meat and the milk and ultimately, in their lifetime they consequently producing less methane. So that whole picture, you can't look at one thing separate to all of the others.
Unknown 7:02
Whereabouts are you in this whole process, in terms of having something that would be ready to be used on farms, either in a research capacity or more more broadly?
Unknown 7:18
Yeah, so there's one one company in particular that has a product that's now approved in many countries, so they're probably at the forefront and I think it's perfectly fine for me to say that it's both here. They probably welcomed me saying that which results in about 2% reductions in methane emissions. But one of the challenges that they have now is that they don't get enhanced production. So you have to look at things like direct fed microbials or probiotics, whatever you want to call them in order to this hydrogen, hydrogen sinks and I guess you know, that's all very dependent on whether countries put a carbon framework in place, you know, ultimately, reducing me saying if you haven't got a production value is all about who pays because someone has to pay ultimately, because the farmers obviously can't pay for that. product. So it has to be consumer or government led carbon framework, but there are others as well. And there's things that we work on like this, the red mackerel v asparagopsis. Toxic formers, which does seem to have a little bit of a production benefit as well. That data is quite fresh, you know, it's from a third level data that it's not our own data at the minute, and there are the products like asparagopsis was probably the next one to believe in terms of being ready for the market. And then there's a whole number of other projects which are I would say a lower down in their readiness. So that I call it the technology readiness level for example.
Unknown 9:14
And what about the the work that you're doing the omics work that you're doing and I guess the direct fed microbials or probiotics that you're looking at how how far away? Where are you at in that whole stage of research?
Unknown 9:31
Yeah, I think this is a really exciting space. We have we have a feel novelized to look isolated. So our whole cultural approach has isolated quite a lot of novelize novel bacteria that may be even better than what we have already potentially in order to redirect hydrogen. But we're right at the very beginning of that we're doing the in vitro is in the lab to try and simulate what might happen in the animal. But I think that area is really promising. And very recently, we have a new flagship project. So this is a global research alliance flagship project. So for those of you who may not know about the the Gra, they're actually a massive Consortium. of 66 countries and lots of parties that they feel were involved as well. So they gave us a flagship status for our cultural Mac Pro program, which is meant that we have been able maybe to get a little bit more funding around isolating more novel. Remember bacteria and fungi as well, because there's a whole wealth of genetic diversity and that we're really not tapping into particularly if you take a sample from a low methane emitting animal. And you get the particular isolates that were responsible for redirecting that hydrogen, because they should be one of the best direct fed microbials. So we're at the beginning. We're also good this huge, huge global project where people across the world will be culturing novel isolates. So we're really hopeful that we'll be able to tap into some of that novelty.
Unknown 11:35
Okay, that's cool. Congratulations firstly on on, humanize that way, and having that acknowledgement I guess, and hopefully some funding to go with that. What I guess if you had the, if I if I had the blank check to write you and said okay, what would you do? What would you do?
Unknown 11:56
What would I do? So, in that in that global project, that's exactly what I would do, although I could do with more funding on top of that. So what we have is we have about the team culture hubs across the world. So the universities or institutes that have the capacity infrastructure, and the capacity to culture from samples that they have or samples which are sent to them from other countries. In particular, you know, we want samples from the global south because they will be fed, the animals will be fed an array of different tropical seeds. So the microbiome will will be slightly different. So there are all of these herbs, including ourselves, who are the lead hub in Queen's University, Belfast, will all be culturing those microbes. are concentrating on bacteria, but other places have capacity to do for the fungi and the Archaea as well. So our aim is that we should, we should have about two to 3000 Minimum novel isolates. By the end of the three year project. And even that is the tip of the iceberg because if we had another three years, we would probably be able to close quite a lot of the gap in what we have in culture compared to what lives in the in the room and our intention is those microbes are going to be available and culture collections. So if anybody has anything that might be I have potential IP, we're asking people not to send them because there's nothing more frustrating than to have a genome and not be able to get to the isolette in order to test them. But in that project, we're also going to be looking at what VFAs they have the capacity to produce. And in particular, we want to look at the ability to make propionic or to reduce acetate being the main areas where you can really redirect your hydrogen
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Unknown 0:02
What we are faced, they have the capacity to produce. And in particular, we want to look at the ability to make propriate on it, or to reduce acetate being one of the main areas where you can really redirect your hydrogen.
Unknown 0:20
So there's, there's a couple of things there. Firstly, I guess is how different is the, I guess from perspective, you said you're going to be having hopefully 2000 After three years, and just for people who might not know as much about the rumen microbiome, is that you know, is that 20% 5% 1% point 1% of what's in there and then how much does it vary between Europe and Ireland? I'm in California, but Australia or Africa or South Asia? How all of South America, how does it how much does it vary?
Unknown 1:00
So at the minute, just to put it into perspective, we have somewhere around 500 microbial genomes for the for the rumen so we're talking about adding two to 3000. On top of that, and we think by doing that we should have somewhere in the order of 60 to 70% of the room and microbiome covered and that we make those calculations because there was a global study that used ribosomal sequencing to see what what is normal for the room and across across the world. So there was samples taken from different ruminants across the world. So from our pure cultures, what we can do is map back to see the matches, and then you get an idea of your coverage, see what I mean. But we we think we can easily get to about 70% in three years time and to answer that question on variation. I think I have inadvertently answered that because that Roman census piece of work that looked at what's normal, showed that there is a core microbiome whether you're talking about you know a goat or a cow for example, there is a call and you will always find in those ruminants, but then the breed and in particular, the diet defines what the rest looks like. And that study showed that it was really mainly diet that drove that differential from the core.
Unknown 2:46
Okay, and because you're you're gathering the genomic information from these these microbes, so are you are you looking at trying to identify the actual genes that are the hydrogen utilizes? And so when you have a genome you can say that one we believe will be a hydrogen neutralizer. So you can actually
Unknown 3:12
Yes, Yes, Yes is the answer to that. So when we have these genomes, we will want to dig into them as much as possible to get the genetic understanding of which genes are responsible. Of course, whether we whether we can do that in a three year project, just probably know. We'll probably to the point where we have all these isolates will happen characterized will happen genome sequence, the weather we have the well actually it's very unlikely that we will have mind those genomes falling
Unknown 3:52
I guess the next the next question is about the competitive nature because just because you have something above it's been isolated and cultured. That's that's might be a wonder bug. How do you how do you get it to survive and persist and be competitive within the microbiome or is that a space that we also need to spend some efforts to getting?
Unknown 4:16
Yeah, well, obviously isolating from the women itself, it's really helpful because you know, that they can survive in my in particular if you if you take some of those dominant species that naturally prevail in then can redirect antigen that's useful, but also, we have to look at the encapsulation technologies, because of course, you have to grow them at scale. In large scale, they're strict anaerobes and there has to be a way to encapsulate them and keep the oxygen out. And at the same time, you know, when they're ingested by the animal, they can then be released slowly as required and not in one go. So there is a technology has to move at the same time, if you like. And what are the
Unknown 5:13
what are the challenges there are where are we at as far as moving on that side of the whole process?
Unknown 5:19
I think that areas really moving forward it is moving forward, which is why I think direct fed microbials almost having a had an app surgeons recently because the technology is, is is there to be tested. And I think in the same way when we look at additives as well to reduce methane. The technology is being an A C we didn't know what to release it slowly into the room and other grazing animal. So for grazing animals, you can't get those additives in very easily because they're always on pasture. So we have to have those mechanisms of releasing slowly. So there's a parallel there with what's required on the direct fed microbial side. But the technology is has advanced substantially.
Unknown 6:14
That's That's wonderful. To hear. Because I think it's easy to have a picture of livestock methane emissions and things of a production facility in Europe or in North America or in Australia. However, when you actually look at the numbers, the number the two countries with the largest carrier populations, China and India and then you've also got the hundreds of millions of animals in South America and also in Africa, but much more dispersed and harder to get to from a from a product perspective. So having something that would work in those would be would be a big game changer in terms of global reduction of emissions.
Unknown 7:03
That's very true. But I think we have to be pragmatic when we talk about some of the countries in the Global South. You know, the the infrastructure, and the cost of some of these technologies at the minute would be very inhibitory. But of course, of course, when you look at South Africa, for example, there are lots of things that they can do in the management for example, to make those animals more productive. But we have to start somewhere we have to start you know, in countries that have the infrastructure and then help all of the other countries move towards these technologies as much as we can.
Unknown 7:50
I had something on to my tongue and it's just dissipated. Oh oh, that so you mentioned earlier that by capturing that hydrogen energy within the room and you get approved potential production benefit or for the for the farmer, would you be bold enough to predict what they may? What may be possible in that in that area?
Unknown 8:24
So thank you think I can predict because there's more and more animal level data coming out at the minute. So bear in mind that this is with isolates that we already have, but certainly some of the lactic acid bacteria showing anything up to about 20% reductions in methane emissions, and that data is them alone. It's not them in conjunction with an additive like Bolivia, for example, where you should have well as the name suggests an additive effect of both of them.
Unknown 9:05
So if you get rid of the lactic acid, then that's also going to help with reducing methane. Is that correct? Is that what I'm understanding or is that
Unknown 9:15
well, lactate is a precursor for propriano Eight. So I mean, some of those studies, they've actually made the silage using a lactic acid bacteria to help preserve the grass. And then when it goes into the room, and they're seeing benefits in terms of methane, because they're producing lactate which is converted into procreate on it and that conversion actually utilizes hydrogen
Unknown 9:44
okay. So the the method of interaction or not of implementation could be within a silage or something like that, as well as actually giving it directly to the animal.
Unknown 9:56
Yeah, that's absolutely true. And, you know, lactic acid bacterium is just an example and they're facultative anaerobes. So they're, they're also slightly easier to deal with when they're not strict anaerobes as you know. So yes, people are looking at more practical ways, as well. What I would say in all of that is that it's likely to be the tip of the iceberg, because the diversity that we have them probably do even better if we managed to get it out into culture.
Unknown 10:38
Going forward, maybe probably 10 or 15 years time, do you think do you think it would be likely that someone would have a herd of animals that have their rumen microbiome tested? And then essentially, there'd be a prescription of various different bugs or microbes that they would be given? So you're actually tweaking the microbiome at that level? Is that the sort of ultimate aim of doing
Unknown 11:06
it? That's, that's quite possible because also by having all of these cultures, what we're trying to do is enable the ability to just look at diversity of who's there and then to know the function the inverse so that the inferred function is very accurate, if you see what I mean. Because if you have the isolates, you can, you know, you know what they're doing in essence and then you can just look at diversity in the room, which will be enough. And that of course, is much easier to do you can look at diversity very simply. So people would be able to take some samples potentially and know okay, what what, what is wrong? Is this good or is it not? I mean, the only thing that I would say from that is, of course, you can't be proven itself was easily they taste an invasive procedure. And you might want to perhaps, you know, the fecal samples are not a good proxy in themselves, but you'd have to think about
Unknown 12:16
whether you could find some other proxy or some other way of analyzing that. There's even people I've spoken to, they're across nature. They're herbivores that are non most energetic. There's a lot of variation now where do you see I guess, cross species? Coming into it from both a research perspective in terms of better understanding what's going on, and then AI intervention perspective?
Unknown 12:48
I'm smiling because that's a very, very good question. And I think we have a lot to learn from termites from wallabies and from kangaroos and that nature because they produce very little me thing. And the reason that they produce little meat just a little bit of methane is because they have productive cetaceans that take the hydrogen away. So C to Genesis and methanogenesis compete in any environment. So in the rumen, because methanogenesis is higher than your C to Genesis is always lower. So your ability to move your hydrogen into reductive C to j is dependent on whether you can lower the mythology analysis but in in animals like termites or vertebrates and wallabies and kangaroos, the converse is true. So riddled with activity to Genesis outcompetes methanogenesis, nearly always, and some of those microbes could be particularly key for use in the rumen. Just because they come from other animals doesn't mean to say that they wouldn't be suited for the rumen because many of those seat regions are ones that you would see in the rumen but they might have a little bit more competitive advantage that they can suppress methanogenesis
Unknown 14:28
that that's fascinating. I guess what I've been thinking is do have you ever thought or have you do you understand or I'm thinking about this from an evolutionary perspective why? We've got this same issue of hydrogen and it's been there's been different evolutionary paths and obviously there must be some competitive advantage in the different powers because that's what's evolved. Are you aware of, I guess this from an evolutionary perspective, and how that sits?
Unknown 15:06
Yeah, absolutely. So it's realizing that hydrogen is a way of gaining energy. So it's a you gain ATP by making all of those switches an energy source. And I think that this is what fascinates me the most about that. rumen it's the chemical warfare that actually actually goes on because they're competing. To make that energy. So essentially, the utilizing the hydrogen as much as as possible, but you will also get some microbes that produce anti microbials. So they produce anti microbials so that they can really compete in the room. And that's the hypothesis that some scientists have used when they've used lactic acid bacteria to redirect hydrogen. They have chosen the lactic acid bacteria that have been produced the most anti microbials because they they The thinking is that when they hit the rumen, they will have more competitive advantage, because they have this cascade of antimicrobials, allowing them to compete, but it started ecology of how they're all working together and how they compete. That is really fascinates me and that whole war, it's a warfare around hydrogen.
Unknown 16:40
is absolutely fascinating. Do you think do you think because everyone, you know, as, as human society, we see the problem as methane. And so there's all this talk in the media and in governments about methane and the issues actually the hydrogen and you think the fact that the conversations around the wrong topic means that resources energy aren't directed as beneficially as they could be?
Unknown 17:13
Yeah, I think so. I think the whole space is seen very negatively. We've all seen that in in the major we see various countries like Northern Ireland here have put a separate 46% reduction needed in in methane by 20 2050. But I think I think ultimately, you know, the conversations with the scientists are perhaps not happening as much as they should to get this real understanding that it's, it's hydrogen warfare that we're talking about. And actually, you can do something with hydrogen. So we just need to redirect it into the correct pathways. I say we just need to of course, it's it's not something that happens overnight. But I do think you know, these conversations and also how we talk about it in a way that it makes sense that we're not a scientist, you know, really overcomplicating things that people are immediately shut off from what we say is really important.
Unknown 18:24
Well, that's 100% The reason why I am speaking to you today, and I've spoken to many of the other people I've spoken to previously on the podcast, so thank you very much.
Unknown 18:37
Not a problem. I do like to talk about this this topic very much.
Unknown 18:42
And is there is there anything else that we haven't discussed that you think should be added?
Unknown 18:51
No, I think I think it's really important that we that the outlook is really positive. Below here. Look at the press, for example. You see a lot of negativity, but when we bought we're already in the past in reducing me things substantially. So I think it's really important for us to convey that you know that it isn't. We will have to kill all the hurts, etc. That absolutely the solutions are in development and some of them are nearly ready. Excellent. Well, thank you. Thank you very, very much.