ASH CLOUD
ASH CLOUD
Breeding for sustainable livestock, how genetic selection can provide significant and permanent reductions to livestock emissions with Matthew Cleveland
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Humans have been selectively breeding animals since before Roman times. Modern technologies and tools including genomics and artifical intelligence has hugely increased the rate of progress. Increasingly, sustainability traits such as the enviromneatl footprint of production are being included in breeding programs in addition to productivity, efficiency, and profitability traits.
Today we are joined Matthew Clevlend, a geneticist who leads sustainability at ABS Global across their beef and dairy genetic improvement programs. Early indications are that the heritability of methane emissions are between 20-30% which is similar to many traditional production traits. In addition, these improvements are both cumulative and permanent, and applicable to production systems across the Global North and Global South.
Welcome to the AppCloud. I'm at Catwoman. Humans have been selectively breeding animals since before Roman times. Modern technologies and tools, including genomics and artificial intelligence, has hugely increased the right of progress. Increasingly, sustainability traits of the environmental footprint of production are being included in breeding programs, in addition to productivity, efficiency, and profitability traits. Today we're joined by Matthew Clayton. Early indications are that the heritability of methane emissions are between 20 and 30 percent, which is similar to many traditional production drivers. In addition, these improvements are both cumulative and permanent, and applicable to production systems across the global north and the global south. Matthew, thank you very much for joining me today.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks, Pat. Really appreciate it. Glad to be here.
Ash Sweeting:So genetics is a tool that farmers, ranchers, livestock producers have been using for literally centuries. And it has a huge potential to impact the productivity and sustainability of our animal production systems. Could you please tell me about your work in the genetic space and where the opportunities and challenges are for um genetics and sustainability?
SPEAKER_01:Sure, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you're right, right? Genetics, genetics has been used for a long time. I mean, you can go back to Robert Bakewell in England and in the 18th century, who was one of the first, probably not the first, but one of the first to start looking at uh you know breeding programs. And then into the into the 20th century where we started to professionalize uh breeding programs and animal genetic improvement. And you know, farmers and ranches around the world have been improving livestock for for generations and have made tremendous uh impacts and tremendous improvements uh in the efficiency of productivity of livestock, right? I mean, you can look at even just look at graphs that look at, say, meat and dairy production um, you know, from the 1940s or 1950s to today, and you see massive improvements in productivity. You know, we have many fewer animals today producing much more animal protein, much more meat and milk. And so we've seen, and not all of that's genetics, right? Um, you know, some of that's gonna be management, nutrition, and various other things, but we know that a significant portion, you know, you look at the literature, you might, it might be 60 or 70 or 80% of that improvement that that we've seen over time is has really been directly related to genetics. So we know genetics is having a um a specific and and um significant impact on increases in efficiency and productivity. And we also know that that continues and we continue to get better at making better, better selection decisions and using genetic tools uh to make improvements. And and really the way we look at that is you know, genetics is the start of a more sustainable food supply, right? Genetics is really the one intervention that that we can put in place that we know is going to increase productivity and efficiency, and it's gonna do it in a way that's both additive and cumulative. And so we know that the genetic changes that we make today will continue into the next generation and we'll add the additional improvement, which will continue to the next generation, which will add that that additional improvement. And so what we're doing today is really looking at, you know, how do we, you know, we know that that's happening, but how do we really quantify, how do we pull apart that impact or that effect of that genetic improvement and to really uh define how it's directly impacting uh sustainability. And we can look at sustainability obviously in a lot of different ways. Uh, you know, sustainability is profitability of those farmers and ranchers and of that beef supply chain. Uh, but it's also uh, you know, looking at um, you know, how it how it impacts our environment, right? And so there's there's a lot of different different lenses we can use. But really for us, it's it's how do we how do we uh you know pull apart those pieces to understand where genetics is having that imp uh having that that direct impact? And then how do we essentially do more of that, right? How do we ensure uh that the genetics that we continue to make and continue to improve are going to have those direct impacts uh that we expect on sustainability?
Ash Sweeting:So uh if we look back, you know, there's been, I guess, many genetic improvements. You know, if you can look at the poultry industry, you can look at the the pig or the swine industry, you look at the dai industry. Um they probably had slightly more intensive genetic programs in the beef industry. But if you had to choose the biggest achievement or the most remarkable achievement that genetics has provided over the last you know half century or so, what would you say, just so you can people understand that the power of this tool to actually change um change the way things look?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, that that that's a great question, right? I think um, you know, really the the turning point for genetic improvement kind of over the generations were was our ability to to, well, was really the computing power that sort of came along in in the the 70s, 80s, and 90s that actually allowed us to make this large-scale genetic improvement, which is really what enabled, you know, those things that you mentioned to happen, right? The whether it be the breeding programs for for poultry or for swine, for dairy, um, and you know, for beef as well, although probably not as intensive. But it was really our ability to um uh you know, to put essentially the right equations together, combine that with the computing power, and then combine that with genomics uh as we got into the the early 2000s. Those those are that's sort of the the path that really led us to today where we have the ability to make that rapid genetic improvement. I think none of that would have happened, none of that would have happened in the poultry industry, none of that would have happened in the swine industry if it wasn't for sort of the combination of technology and tools and focus that allowed us to do that. And I think uh, you know, the work that's been done uh to really drive drive improvement in in the number of the protein species has been sort of nothing short of spectacular and really amazing um over particularly over the last 20 or 30 years, right? We've been really able to dial in that improvement, um, which again has those has those uh impactful uh effects on on the productivity and uh efficiency and sustainability of the system.
Ash Sweeting:One uh one area where genetics, I think, has also shown its remarkable, or breeding, selective breeding has shown its remarkable potential is um with domestic dogs. You can have a domestic dog that's literally one or two kilos or three or four pounds, a tiny little thing. And you can have a domestic dog that is uh you know 150 pounds or 80 or 90 kilos. Um, and they're all dogs, they could all potentially breed with each other. They're all the same species, um, but the the the variety of different breeds and how they actually look and what they can do is just remarkable. And and that's all essentially selective breeding over long, long periods of time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I think I think interesting that you bring up dogs, right? Because I think there's it's sort of this combination of the remarkable ability, yeah, of selective breeding to create this massive variation um in the types of dogs that that exist, which also serves as a warning to how you implement breeding programs, right? Because I think we're all aware that that you know that certain problems arise and in certain dog breeds, and and that's that's really due to uh to the the breeding programs that have been uh that have been uh implemented. And so I think I think it I think it's sort of a two-sided coin, right? There's the there's the there's the opportunity, uh, and then there's the kind of the warning about how we use those powerful tools in a breeding program.
Ash Sweeting:And I guess two things come from that. Firstly, when once genomes were first, initially the human genome and then other animal genomes were first sequenced, which was really only in the last 20 or 30 years, um how has that uh impacted the ability to much more finely or rapidly um change uh phenotypes or outcomes through through genetic selection or breeding programs? How powerful is that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean, we you know, we've been using genomic information going back into the 90s, right? And in a in a pretty, frankly, today we would look back and say in a pretty elementary way, right? At that point, and uh in in those days back in the 90s, it would have seemed it would have seemed extremely advanced, right? But yeah, ultimately was the it was the sequencing, the full sequencing of the human genome, which then led to the sequencing of the animal genomes. Um and what it allowed us to do is really gain more insight and accuracy around the genetic decisions or the selection decisions that we were making. Um so I was working, you know, I was working in the in the pig improvement industry, you know, kind of in the early 2000s when we were first starting to implement these sorts of tools in pigs. And and again, what it what it enabled us to do is just understand more about the selection decisions we were making and take that information and incorporate it into those decisions, which ultimately made it allowed us to move much much more quickly, right? And the and as we um as we built up that information, as that as we started to build these uh these populations that had all this genet this genomic information, it really just allowed us to dial in, really allowed us to do what we had always done from a selective breeding standpoint, but just dial it in so we could do it better and faster.
Ash Sweeting:So I think there's two things that come from that. Firstly, my understanding is if we know the genomes that we're selecting for, you can actually assess that animal soon after birth rather than say it's milk production or it's something else. You don't have to wait for that animal to grow into a mature animal, have a calf, and then assess its milk production. You'll have indications at birth. So um that means you can you can decrease the generation interval um so you can accelerate that. Is that is that a correct understanding?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. It's um you you know, and just maybe just to step back one step before before that, right? The the challenge we have with using DNA information or genomic information is that very few of the traits that we're really interested in are controlled by only a few number of genes, right? So most traits that are that are relevant in in a protein production or an animal production environment are going to be, you know, things like growth and efficiency and those sorts of things are going to be traits that are controlled by many, many genes, right? And so we don't have the ability typically to go in and say, oh, here's a couple of genes that are influencing this particular trait. And so if I focus on those couple of genes, um, then I can make faster improvement, right? We actually have to take the information in totality. Um, and essentially what we do is take all of the genomic information that we have. And, you know, so in pigs and cattle, there's around 3 billion base pairs, right? But there's take, you know, with base pairs are just spots on the genome, right? We take that information and essentially correlate that or look at the relationship between that information and the traits that we're interested in improving. And it's that correlation or that relationship that allows us to make improvement because we know if these certain parts of the genome show up, then I know they're generally related to the traits that I'm interested in. And so to your point, yes, because then we know that sort of information, then as soon as an animal is born, or even theoretically before an animal is born, we can we can take a sample of that animal's DNA and we can make a prediction about how that animal is going to perform based on that information, which is again, you know, that's revolutionized the dairy industry, for example, right? The dairy industry really jumped on using genomic information really quickly once that became available in uh you know around 2008, 2009. Um and because of that, they're they've been able to reduce the generation interval. So the basically essentially the time it takes to select uh the next generation generation of animals dramatically, right? So now they can test at birth and they can start making new animals very very soon after that rather than having to wait to find out how that animal is actually going to perform in uh in a production system.
Ash Sweeting:So it's more referencing to a um another live animal where you have that actual real life data. So I don't know if it's too bold to sort of jump into humans here, but if you took a DNA sample of you or me and compared it to Usain Boltz or say Bill Gates or something like that, one would suggest if it's more like Usain Boltz, well, okay, that person might be a fast runner. And um, you know, if it was Bill Gates, you'd think they were particularly intelligent or an entrepreneurial or something like that, but you're not actually looking at the individual DNA, uh the actual genes and say that gene does X, Y, and Z and that gene doesn't. That's the complexity that's too great for our current understanding.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. And the reason it works in in animals and it doesn't really work in humans, um, is because we need thousands of animals to be able to look at the relationship between that DNA information and the and the traits we're interested in, right? Because it's it's it's complicated. When if I have thousands of genes uh that impact the trait I'm interested in, and there could be all different types, you know, different versions of those genes, they they they come together in different ways in every individual. Therefore, I need thousands of animals that have the have the performance or have the traits that I'm interested in, that I can create that relationship, then then I can make that prediction. And the and the reason it doesn't work in humans typically is because I only have one individual or two individuals, and that doesn't give me enough information to create that correlation.
Ash Sweeting:Interesting, very, very interesting. With uh you know, a growing need and and focus on sustainability. So my understanding is the first, you know, the first um breeding values were very much productivity and um quality related. And so there's big there's more uh there's more um uh attributes, more phenotypes being added into what we're needing to select for. Um even going back to pre pre-genomics and pre-kind of breeding values, you know, the the farmer or the rancher looked at the animal and said that was that you know, whether it was the coat colour or the length of the horns or whatever those attributes are, it was all visually assessed and then it moved on. And now we're adding more and more um the phenotypes or attributes into those programs. So how does that, firstly, what are the ones that you see is the most important from that sustainability side of things? And secondly, how does that change the way you put together breeding values if it does?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So right. And so I think what you you point out one of the, you know, one of the uh advantages of animal breeding programs was right, is anything we can measure that varies in a population, uh, we can we can create a breeding value for, right? So uh we have dozens, many dozens of breeding values for different traits, uh from teeth and utter scores and dairy cattle to uh to growth in efficiency in in essentially all species, right? And so, you know, we can, you know, and and over time, as we've started creating breeding values, which again started in the 80s or not, really the 80s, 70s or 80s, uh, we've sort of just added to that that list over time. Um, what becomes more challenging is now all of a sudden we have many, many breeding values. And so then you have to ask yourself, what is actually important, right? What do I actually need to select for um to create improvement? And and that very much depends on the system that you're in, right? And what exactly your goals are. So ultimately what you have to do is is set your goals and determine, you know, what is it that that I want to achieve with this particular breeding program? And then you you need to select the traits that um that are of most interest uh in order for you to meet those goals. Um from a sustainability standpoint, really what we're looking at is those traits typically that revolve around efficiency, um, you know, growth and efficiency or the efficiency of that growth in animals that enable you to meet a specific outcome. So if you're you're in a beef setting, right? So the the efficiency of growth, uh, you know, the efficiency of reproduction to create it just to create an animal, and then the efficiency of that growth across that animal's life cycle until it gets to the harvesting endpoint, and then the ability to meet a specific harvest endpoint, right? All of those things are gonna go into uh into um uh a definition of sustainability or or the definition of my outcome. And so then I have to look very carefully, what are the traits within that that are gonna allow me to really optimize a system that allows me to meet my goal in the most sustainable way possible?
Ash Sweeting:So as a genetics company, you you sell your your products all around the world. Um, so I imagine there's a few targets out there. How do you go about um finding out what those goals are? Because obviously you can't speak to every single farmer or rancher and find out what you need to have a process co how does how does that work? And I guess how does it work um within different or or different geographic geographies and especially that global north, global south um situation? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, and that's really challenging, right? Um, and there's there's a lot of other challenges we can talk about as well, but really to address that that specific question is you know, we really have to define within within a in an environment or within a market. And sometimes sometimes a market has maybe one environment, sometimes a market has multiple environments. We really have to divide the those selection decisions um between, and again, this is more of a beef example uh in particular, uh, but we have to divide those selection decisions between I need to maintain a cow herd, um, and I want to maintain an optimal and efficient cow herd within a given environment, right? And so there's some there's some genetic decisions we need to make there. And though, again, those environments are going to vary from the United States to Brazil to South Africa to Australia, right? Many different environments there. And so my goal there is really to, you know, again, when I think about sustainability in particular, my goal is to optimize the selection decisions that allow those cows in that given environment to be as productive and efficient and as sustainable as possible, right? And there's different ways I can define that, but the definition is something like, you know, I need to have a calf every year that weighs a certain amount at weaning, those sorts of things, right? There's different metrics I can define what is an optimal situation, but I want to find the genetics and define the genetics that are going to best fit that situation from an environmental standpoint. Then I have to look at the other side and say, well, I'm not just making cows here. Ultimately, I'm trying to make beef. And so some of those animals are going to stay and be cows and be parents of the next generation, but most of those animals are actually going to go into the beef supply chain. So then I have to define, okay, what are the optimal, what is the optimal animal to go into a beef supply chain? And again, that's going to be different in the United States than it is in Brazil, for example. And so I have to really identify, okay, what are the key traits that are going to drive improvement across a beef supply chain from the time that animal enters the supply chain until that animal gets harvested. And then I need to have the genetics that are going to allow, again, us to optimize that situation so that we have, we have a sustainable, a sustainable uh production system that gets that animal from the farmer ranch all the way to harvest. Right. And so then we have to look at what are those right genetics. Now, overall, those genetics are going to be related to efficiency and sustainability, but we're going to have to dial in different things depending on what that market looks like. So the US wants one kind of beef and Brazil wants a slightly different kind of beef, and the UK wants a slightly different kind of beef. And so we would like to dial those genetics in in order to enable us to meet the goals of those different production systems. And so part of part of the, you know, kind of to wrap up that answer, part of that is having different types of genetics that we can provide in different parts of the world that allow our customers, again, on the maternal, you know, the maternal side where I'm just making cows versus the side where I'm making beef, allow our customers to optimize the their decision making uh within within their given environments and their given production systems.
Ash Sweeting:And I think to jump in there with an Australian example, have to throw in an Australian example. There you go. If you've got a cow or a herd in in southern southeastern Australia where it's a temperate climate with temperate grasses, much more nutritious, colder winters, the odd frost and a bit of snow, smaller, smaller paddock or pasture sizes compared to an animal way up in the northern part of the country, up in the Kimberley where it's it's tropical, the paddocks are huge, they might have to walk miles and miles to water points. There are different ticks, diseases, parasites, pests, all those things need to be factored in. Because you the one that works well in Victoria or in southern New South Wales is probably not going to be overly optimised up in the Kimberley or up in the Northern Territory environment.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, 100%. And we've developed different breeds of cattle for different purposes, right? And so, you know, the breeds that we're going to use in in South Australia and Southern Australia are not going to be the breeds that we're going to use in northern Australia. And it's very similar in a lot of different markets. And so then there's some similarity across environments and across markets that we might see. So an animal that is productive in the northern Great Plains of the US might be suitable to work in in Southern Australia, might be suitable to work in southern Brazil, whereas the animal from most of Brazil that works best is probably going to be suitable for Northern Australia or the Southeast US, right? And so we have lots of different breeds and lots of different genetic types that we can choose from. And we can also make combinations of those breeds and genetic types that allows us to optimize in a given environment the types of traits we're look we're looking to uh looking to improve. And I think, oh go ahead.
Ash Sweeting:I'll just imagine the same sort of dynamics work if you're looking at you know down around Cape Town in Africa, or you're looking somewhere in in um Kenya or Tanzania or likewise the different parts of South Asia, India, Pakistan, et cetera.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what is optimal is is is incredibly environmentally dependent, right? Uh, because it's it's this is not really a sort of a maximization problem. This is an optimization problem. Because at the end of the day, you know, if I think about dairy cattle, for example, the the amount of milk that I'm going to get from a from a Holstein cow milking in the United States, you know, that's not even a target for someplace like Kenya, right? So it's it's really about how do we optimize the genetics that go into a particular environment that get us to the objectives that we've set for ourselves for that entire supply chain.
Ash Sweeting:In terms of, I guess, the the priorities um how they've changed over the last four or five years, uh, I know methane is increasingly being discussed as as an important issue. Um do you want to uh explain why or how that is relevant to to breeding? And also are there any other uh traits or phenotypes that are that are becoming equally higher priorities over the last um half a dozen or so years?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, there's a number of things going on, right? And uh, you know, obviously we're aware when we look at we look at charts that are put out by FAO, for example, that you know, cattle, uh cattle are uh you know have have a significant uh carbon footprint. Um, and a lot of that is due to methane production, right? So so in in cattle in particular, cattle have a rumen, uh, you know, the the natural fermentation process of the rumen, which which makes the cow a beautiful creature that allows the cow to uh to convert uh you know forages uh into meat or milk also produces byproducts such as methane, right? And so we hear a lot about we hear a lot about methane and and the focus on on wanting to wanting to reduce uh methane production from from cattle production. And so, you know, there's there's a there's a number of things going on there, right? So one of one of them is, well, we talked earlier about that, this increase in efficiency and productivity, right? So per pound of beef or or per per uh gallon of milk or however we want to kind of define that output, we have absolutely reduced uh methane production given a quantity of output of that product, right? But at the same time, we've also increased populations of animals around the world. And so we know that that methane continues to increase, even though it is decreasing per kilogram or per pound of product that we're producing, right? So that's that's one place to start to look at continued focus on this, on these efficiencies and productivities, which we haven't even, you know, we haven't reached the, we haven't reached the the say the pinnacle of, right? There's there's still a lot of opportunity around the world to improve efficiency and productivity. So that's absolutely not a said and done kind of deal. It's something that we continue to focus on because we know that increases in productivity and efficiency are going to have multiple impacts, one of which is going to be reduced, reducing methane per per per unit of output of meat and milk, right? So that's that's one way we can look at. So huge opportunity there. Um and that's a that's a place that that we are we at ABS are are really focused on. The other, the other thing we can think about is as methane as a trait, right? Methane has it has variation in the population. So what we know from studies that have been done is that there are low methane emitting animals and there are high methane emitting animals. And and some of that's related to to how much they eat, and some of that's related to other things. And so really we're now, you know, as as really as an industry and and um uh you know, looking at this from a from a scientific perspective, we're just we're now starting to understand, you know, what that what that variation looks like and and essentially how do we leverage that variation? Um, because at the end of the day, we have to continue to grow the efficiency and productivity of the system. Um and so if we're selecting for a trait like methane, uh if we actually take create a methane trait and put it, put it in a breeding program, we have to ensure that we can decrease methane while still improving the the overall efficiency and productivity of that system. Because if we if we decrease methane, but we also decrease productivity, then we actually haven't gained anything. Um so that's something I think that's important for us to think about is is, you know, sometimes I hear about, oh, well, we can create a methane breeding value and we can just select for that. Well, not really, because we we have to we have to take into account the the traits that are also related to methane and also in that breeding program. So we have to really understand could we incorporate a methane, a methane phenotype, a methane trait in a breeding program and make progress on both increasing productivity, but also decreasing, decreasing methane. And there are some examples out there that show that that that could be possible. I think the other thing to think about beyond methane as a trait itself is is harnessing and leveraging that rumen microbiome. So the rumen that we talked about earlier, right, is this the the engine of uh of the of bovine, but it also has its own, it has its own uh what we would call microbiome. So there's billions of microbes uh that that uh exist uh within within that rumen. Um and one of the interesting things that that we've discovered in the last 10 years is that there is genetic control over those rumen micro microbes. And so essentially the genetics of the animal itself have have an impact on what types of microbes exist in that rumen. And some of those microbes are directly related to producing methane. And so we're doing some work uh today, we've been actually working for the last four or five years, on understanding can I actually create a trait that is a microbiome trait uh that describes those microbes that contribute to methane production and then put that in a breeding program and actually select for the composition of those microbes in the rumen. Um, and if I could do that, could I have then an impact on reducing methane production by changing the types of microbes that are in that rumen? And I think you know, we're still a long way away. We've seen some demonstration of how this works, but we're still a long way away from truly understanding how they implement that. But for us, that we're really excited about the potential for using that sort of sort of novel information uh to make to make different types of selection decisions. So, kind of for me, those are the three different ways I think about this, right? So efficiency and productivity, we have to continue to drive that. You know, we have to look at methane as a trade and what that actually means in a breeding program. And then this microbiome piece, which is which is kind of really new and innovative, and really understanding how do we leverage that to make better decisions.
Ash Sweeting:Uh the microbiome piece is something I find absolutely fascinating because you know, you've literally got this ecosystem of microbes, and there's, as you said, there's the hundreds of millions of billions of them. And they're all, you know, it's like a the from my understanding is that it's like a a vibrant community where they're they're competing, they're collaborating, they're um you know, all fighting over the it's it's a very it's constantly changing and in some ways it's quite independent from the animal, even though it's uh wholly within the animal. And then the animal obviously is somehow regulating that. And okay, how does the animal's uh you know, hardcore codogenetics actually regulate that? And uh obviously there's a bunch of questions that we still need to dig up answers for on many of those things. Uh but uh from a process perspective, does that mean you're taking genomic samples of the actual animal plus genomic samples of the rumen fluids and then looking at all those you know, emissions traits, productivity traits, growth traits, whatever, and uh linking those those different data sources into um into your your analytics programs.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's I mean, it is remarkable to me, and particularly so the first paper that I that I became aware of would have been back in 2016. And it was absolutely remarkable for me to think that the animal genetics regulated the composition of the microbes that were present in the rumen, right? That that just seemed really far-fetched to me. But as we did more work, we figured out it was true. And so that's yeah, it's kind of kind of the way you walk through it is essentially how we look at it, right? We do sequencing of that microbiome, um, what we call metagenomic sequencing, right? Which tells us essentially what's present there and and how often do I see a particular type of microbe. So whether it's bacteria or archaea or there's all sorts of different types of types of microbes. Really, what I'm looking for in that metagenomic sequencing is what I'm doing is I'm is I'm sequencing the genomics of the microbes that are that are in the rumen and trying to understand what's there, right? And then when I understand what's there, then I look at, well, how often is it there, right? How often do I see specific genes, which represent how how much of that microbe do I see? Um, then I've also, you know, I've also genotyped the individual animal itself. So I know what the animal's genome looks like. Um, and then I kind of put those pieces together and say, if I have an animal that looks like this, how often do I see these certain types of genes and in certain microbes in in uh in the rumen? And then that tells me that there is a connection or there's a relationship between certain genes or certain genomic segments in the animal itself and certain microbe genes that show up in the rumen. And what we find out once we've done a lot of this work, and we've, you know, we have uh we have done this on thousands of animals now, uh, where we've looked at, we've we've looked at things like feed efficiency and methane production, and we've looked at the composition of the rumen, and we found that the composition of the rumen is heritable, meaning I can select for it that that certain compositions always or typically show up when I have certain types of of uh uh uh genomic sevens, if you will, in that host animal.
Ash Sweeting:So, how is there anything you can share with how heritable that is in from the from what the results are are looking like so far? Because obviously there's still a lot of work to be done here. So yeah, but yeah, it's pretty heritable.
SPEAKER_01:So our our academic partners, uh uh, we work very closely with an academic group in Scotland, and our academic partners would tell you it's pretty moderately heritable, like it could be somewhere between 20 and 30 percent heritability, uh, which is typical of a lot of traits, a lot of production traits that we already select for. And that would indicate that we could incorporate that sort of information in a breeding program and see and see greater improvements. And and we've done a little bit of that work internally already, and what we've seen is that yeah, by adding that microbiome information that we wouldn't have had before, we actually do increase the accuracy of our br of our our selections. And when I increase the accuracy of selection, that means I actually move faster towards my stated goal.
Ash Sweeting:So and that uh because uh methane is essentially an energy leak, it's methane burns, it's high in energy. Uh, that anything that's built down in the atmosphere not only has the impact of increasing, you know, being a greenhouse gas, you're also losing that energy that the animal could otherwise be needing for growth or raising a calf or producing milk or whatever that is. So you're kind of solving multiple um, you know, killing two birds with one stone in that regard.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I think that's the hope, right? I think we don't know the answer to that yet. And we haven't, uh you know, we certainly haven't we haven't quantified that, but absolutely right. So that that energy has to go somewhere. And so, so will I see improvements in productivity while at the same time reducing methane emissions? And I think that's the you know, that's the ultimate objective. Uh, we're just not there yet to understand what the what the implications are and what the size of that impact might be.
Ash Sweeting:How how and this is probably a how long's a piece of string question, but you know, how far away from there, wherever there happens to be, are we?
SPEAKER_01:We're getting there. I think we're not, I mean, we're not 10 years away, I don't think, right? Uh, you know, we've so we've been we've been engaged in this space. We're in uh trying to think we're in the fifth year uh really of working through this with a fairly large animal sized animal population in the UK, where we've collected lots of information again, like things like individual feed intake, we're collecting more and more methane data. Uh, you know, we have ways that we can collect methane data on on different types of genetics. So we're collecting more and more of that. And and I would say every day we're understanding a bit more of that. Uh so I would say in the next few years, we're really going to come to an understanding of how, you know, what the you know, what's going on, uh, you know, what are what are the implications? And more, most importantly, is how do I then actually use that information in a breeding program? And so it's one thing to understand the basic science and to understand, to try to understand what's going on, but it's a whole nother thing to actually implement that in a breeding program that allows us to scale those effects up and distribute those effects, you know, widely to actually have an impact on animal production systems. And so I'd say, you know, we're we're two more years of this project, and I would hope by the end of this project that we have more clearer answers about how do we actually implement this and and what's what is the size of the impact going to be uh you know in certain livestock systems?
Ash Sweeting:So a couple of things. If you if you look at global cattle ruminant numbers, um you've got the fact that well over, well, well over half are in South America, in South Asia, in Sub-Saharan Africa. So how how transferable is what you're learning in a in a Scottish herd or a North American herd to those um to those areas?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I think the challenge we have is out and and I think we have to, you know, yes, we have large numbers of animals in the South. Um, and I think we sort of have to divide it up between kind of more uh more mature kind of animal production systems and less mature animal production systems. Because I I think in places like Brazil, these sorts of impacts are going to be felt more widely, right? Brazil is is incredibly innovative. They have a lot of animals, right? And so there are certainly a lot of animals that are untouched by sort of um uh more mature breeding programs, but they have a lot of animals that that are in these mature breeding programs. And so in a system like that, things we learn in other in other places could have could have a larger impact because we know we can deliver them into those improvement programs and we know we can scale it up. I think our bigger challenge, and and this is really this is a bigger challenge, even beyond the microbiome or other things we're learning, is you know, we know we can make genetic improvement. We've seen, you know, we've seen the numbers, we know we can drive efficiency and productivity. The challenge is, is we have to be able to disseminate that improvement into these systems that you talk about in in Southern Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa and places where we don't do a lot of artificial insemination, right? It becomes very, very difficult to get those improvements in into those sort of systems. And what we know is that you know, making that genetic improvement is really only the first step. The next step is optimizing a breeding program that then uses that genetic improvement to make change. And that's where that's probably where the gap is the widest, right? Is it is actually developing design breeding programs or mature breeding programs that allow us to take advantage of the genetic improvement we've already made and actually see the the um the outcomes of that genetic improvement. And it's not just in sub-Saharan Africa or Southern Asia. There's a, you know, it's in the southern US, for example, right? There are a lot of places where we we don't have them, we don't have the right mechanisms to really deliver that genetic improvement into the right breed program design. And so for us, that's one of the places we spend a lot of time thinking about is is how do we, how do we have better, how do we, you know, one, how do we deliver that those genetics, but then how do we create better improvement programs or better breeding programs in individual markets that allow us to take advantage of the improvements being made? And I think that's where that's where our biggest gap between developing technologies and actually scaling those up. That's where our biggest gap is.
Ash Sweeting:So on that, I was recently speaking to Jason Clay from WWF, who looks at markets and uh how that can improve uh the sustainability of our food systems. Uh and he was saying something like, you know, 60 odd, 70% of the uh environmental footprint comes from um, you know, 10 or 20% of animals, and those animals produce about 5% of the food. So you've got uh uh you know these the bigger or the more the more progressive uh people who are adopting the new technologies that make that that's fast, and then you've got the long tail of people, and be they ranchers in the US or people in Australia or elsewhere in the world that uh that contribute to that that situation. So what levers are for assistance? You know, there's uh there's market forces, there's government policy, there's you know international agreements, um, all those things are out there that are tools um with various amounts of impact and and bluntness or doubtness. Um what needs more more where do you see the opportunity in terms of uh of driving change? And where do you see those different tools fitting in? Obviously, it's going to change for different um cultures, societies, jurisdictions, etc. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I think that's a great question. And and I did see that uh that uh that stat. Um I've seen it in a couple of different places. Um, you know, and I and I don't know the numbers, those numbers, I'll I'll I'll accept that that's true. It feels right. Uh um, but yeah, I think I I think we really where we're trying to operate is, well, one, it's a given that we're gonna make the genetic improvement, and we're gonna we're gonna target that genetic improvement to specific types of systems that allow us to sort of that that if we could, if we can implement that that genetic improvement, we know we'll make change, right? Um, and so we've developed our own genetic lines, for example, on the B side that we call new aerogenetics, that allow us to really target that genetic improvement uh into specific production systems, into specific markets, um, which we know is gonna is gonna drive more sustainable production, right? That's that's been the focus. I think kind of on the other piece of it then is that delivery, right? And so, you know, we've done we've done different things. We've worked, uh, we worked in the US with with USDA grants um to try to uh to try to incentivize the use of AI for more using more sustainable genetics and really designing brooding programs so that uh farmers and ranchers we can help them make better decisions about what genetics they use to create their cows, as we talked about before, and what genetics they use to create the animals they're gonna go make beef, right? Um and so we try to use some funding mechanisms to help to help create that structure that allows them to scale up that genetic improvement and actually take advantage of the genetic improvement that's being made. You know, we worked with other granting organizations on the dairy side and in in sub-Saharan Africa, for example, to do very similar things, right? Take advantage of the tools that have already been developed, the genetic improvement that's already there, but actually use that to actually get those genetics into the right herds. I don't have the answer, right? It's it's a big problem. And um we know that if we we could make uh, and I don't have the numbers, so I'm not gonna use numbers here, but if we could make you know production systems, for example, in sub-Saharan Africa or or even Northern Australia or or in Brazil, if we can make some of those production production systems, you know, X percent more efficient, we know that the knock on effects for productivity, efficiency, and sustainability will be massive. And so for us, we spent a lot of time thinking about you know, how do I design that breeding program in the right way to leverage the genetic improvement that that's already being made? And and looking for looking for a lot of times looking for funding mechanisms to help to help. Support that because sometimes that's what it takes in in some of these markets, right? Is is some some way to incentivize producers uh to use new tools that will allow them to take advantage of that improvement.
Ash Sweeting:Is there any interest from the big food companies, be that in the dairy space, the Fonteras, the Nestle's and Denones, or in the beef space, the Tysons, the JBS's, et cetera, um to reach as far? Because obviously genetics is way, way, way at the beginning of the whole uh supply chain. And they're way, way at the end. Are they are they reaching out to you because they see um potential for genetics to impact you know their scope-through emissions? Has that got that far yet?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it has. And and you know, I would say over the last 10 years, uh, there's been increasing interest. And the initial interest was more about okay, how do I improve improve product quality, consistency, efficiency of the supply chain, right? That's where it started. That's where some of those discussions started. And those were, you know, there were a few of those discussions where where we had we had uh people at the end of the supply chain, even retailers, saying, Hey, you know, we'd like to improve the the efficiency and and productivity of our supply chain, and we know that genetics is going to contribute to that, right? But but certainly in the last few years, what we've seen is a bit of a shift. And I think really what the sustainability conversation, the scope three conversation has really enabled is us to have more and more of those conversations. And so we are absolutely having conversations at the retail level around, you know, you know, we're coming, we're coming and saying, look, genetics is the start of that your sustainable food supply or that your sustainable supply chain. And and we know that, you know, that these retailers and and others along the chain are looking to meet their scope three commitments. And I think there's increasing recognition that genetics is is a key part of that. And I would say the last two years in particular, there have been a lot more discussion around how do we actually leverage genetics to address to address our scope three commitments all the way all the way along that supply chain.
Ash Sweeting:Awesome. What um what kind of gets you excited about the what's going to happen or the opportunities over the next um you know coming years? Let's call it that way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, look, I've I I for me um you know animal protein is is a critical part of human diets all around the world, right? And and we obviously we obviously hear a lot about um you know discussions around needing to decrease animal protein consumption or or eliminate animal protein consumption altogether, but we know that that people around the world want to eat animal protein and it's an important part of their diet. Um, it's you know it's important nutritionally for them. It's also an important part of culture, right? When we think about how many people work in agriculture and then in animal protein production around the world, it's hundreds of millions of people, you know, and it's an important part of individual cultures, it's an important part of communities, it's an important part of our society, right? And so there's it's so there's feeding people, which which I think we get excited about and I get excited about, but there's also this cultural heritage aspect of it that I think is really critical that we probably don't talk talk much about. And so for me, really what I see is the opportunity um to really have that conversation, to be able to demonstrate that animal proteins can be part of a sustainable food supply. I think that's really what's key key to me and what gets me excited is you know, there are new technologies that continue to come that we're gonna that that we're going to look to use and to implement uh and to disseminate. But at the end of the day, really where you know where I get excited is about being able to demonstrate the value of animal proteins and the value of the sustainability of those production systems and essentially how you know animal protein production is a net good for society and can create net benefits for society. Really that's that's what gets me excited.
Ash Sweeting:We're coming up to the end of the hour, so we probably should wrap things up fairly soon. But before we go, is there anything that you'd like to add or discuss that we haven't already spoken about?
SPEAKER_01:Um I don't think so. I think we covered a lot of the a lot of the topics I was sort of expecting us to cover. Is there anything I missed, Ash?
Ash Sweeting:Oh, we could probably talk for another hour or two if you I'm sure we could. Whether anyone would still be listening at the end of it's another question.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I yeah, I mean, and maybe just to circle back to that the the scope three, I think, I think that is that is be again, I think that is becoming a really important part. Uh you know, the discussion around scope three commitments across the supply chain uh for both beef and dairy is really becoming an important part of the conversation. I think what it's doing is it's enabling us to create a lot more transparency and a lot more visibility for what genetics can do for that supply chain, right? We've always known, we in the industry have always known and always believed that genetics is going to drive, you know, everything that that a supply chain cares about from a and from a product performance standpoint, it's gonna be is gonna start with genetics, is gonna be driven by genetics. But I think really it's the scope three conversation that has enabled us to actually start talking about it and actually get interest from that across that entire supply chain. I don't know that we would be having the same conversations that we're having today if it wasn't for that scope three discussion. Um, and so, you know, again, with with with without that, I still believe that the genetic improvement we're making is having having a significant benefit on productivity and efficiency. But that conversation really is we've been able to take the conversation to the next level and really talk about, you know, how do we ensure we're leveraging the right genetics and that we're incentivizing the right behavior so that those benefits flow all the way through that supply chain? And so I just think that's I think that's a really important development over the last few years. And and that scope three conversation has enabled that.
Ash Sweeting:On that note, and I have to ask you this question, um, but I know it's also a bit of a hell on the piece of screen question. How how big an impact do you think genetics can have on those scope three initiative emissions?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. No, and that's it's a great question. I got so I was on a panel at the Sustainable Foods uh London conference a few weeks ago, and I got that exact I got that exact question, and and the questioner really wanted me to give them a number, right? Um I don't know that we know the number, but let's just say the number's five percent, and I'm just making up a number here, which I don't think is an unreasonable number, right? Let's just say in a given year I can reduce greenhouse gases, CO2 equivalents, however we want to measure it by 5%, right? Over 10 years, because the thing we have to remember is that that the improvement we make is going to be cumulative and permanent. So if I if I if I if I reduce greenhouse gases by 5%, which again is a small number compared to what other numbers we hear out there, over 10 years, I've actually decreased it cumulatively by 35%, right? Which is a much bigger number. And I and I've done that at the same time as I've also gotten the other benefits to genetic improvement, which is increased productivity, increased efficiency, increased profitability for the supply chain, right? So I'm creating benefits for the supply chain to ensure it can remain sustainable while at the same time reducing climate impact, right, in a in a cumulative and permanent way. And so how big? I think it can be fairly large because it has all of these kind of ancillary benefits that go along with it. Um and so it's for me, it's a no-brainer. Uh and then as we add new technologies like uh like the microbiome, I think we'll see that impact be even greater, right? So I think just with what we know today, I think we can make a sizable impact.
SPEAKER_02:And that cumulative effect means if we want to have that impact, the earlier we start, the earlier we get.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And so we've, you know, and so for us, so for us at ABS, like so we've started to, you know, we're in the midst of building life cycle assessments, which are the gold standard to measuring environmental impact of a of a product in a in a given production system. Uh, you know, in the next few months, we'll be releasing the results of those LCAs and we'll be able to demonstrate that if I choose better genetics and I continue to use those genetics over time, I will see an impact, an environment, a direct environmental impact, while at the same time, again, still seeing the improvement of performance that I need to create the beef product that comes out at the end of the chain. Matthew, thank you very much for joining me today. Yeah, thanks, Ash. Really appreciate it, really enjoyed the conversation.
Ash Sweeting:Thank you for listening to the AshCloud with me. Ash waiting in conversation with Matthew Cleveland. Uh please subscribe to AshCloud if you've enjoyed this podcast, where I will continue to discuss food sustainability with guests to bring a deep understanding of the environmental, political, and cultural challenges facing our society and creative ideas on how to address them.