The First Customer - Pioneering Solutions for an Inclusive Future with Founder Jordan Saunders

In this episode, I was lucky enough to interview Jordan Saunders, founder and CEO of NextLink Labs.

Jordan reflects on his entrepreneurial journey, starting from his early days in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, building computers at age 12. He shares how his passion for technology led him to pursue consulting right out of college after studying computer science at Penn State. Over the past decade, Jordan has grown NextLink Labs into a technology consultancy, focusing on custom software development, cloud infrastructure, and cybersecurity. He discusses the importance of balancing personal time and professional goals, emphasizing the challenges of transitioning from a hands-on entrepreneur to a leader who empowers his team to scale operations effectively.

Jordan delves into the evolution of his leadership style, explaining the shift from working in the business to working on the business. He highlights the difficulties of delegating, overcoming guilt, and trusting his team to handle day-to-day operations. Partnerships have played a crucial role in NextLink's growth, offering collaborative opportunities and enhanced client outcomes. Additionally, Jordan reflects on the value of personal branding as a CEO, aiming to align his public persona with the transparency and honesty that define NextLink Labs.

Join Jordan Saunders as he redefines inclusive leadership and builds bridges in this episode of The First Customer!


Guest Info:
NextLink Labs
https://nextlinklabs.com/


Jordan Saunders' LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordan-saunders-b7073712/

Connect with Jay on LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jayaigner/
The First Customer Youtube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/@thefirstcustomerpodcast
The First Customer podcast website
https://www.firstcustomerpodcast.com
Follow The First Customer on LinkedIn
http://www.linkedin.com/company/the-first-customer-podcast/

Transcript

[00:00:27] Jay: Hi, everyone. Welcome to The First Customer podcast. My name is Jay Aigner. Today I am lucky enough to be joined by Jordan Saunders. He is the CEO and founder of NextLink Labs. Jordan, how are you, buddy?

[00:00:38] Jordan: I'm awesome. How are you?

[00:00:39] Jay: I'm good. Better now I'm talking to you. You're in Pittsburgh, right? Is it hot over there?

[00:00:44] Jordan: it's hot, not as hot as last week. It was pretty, pretty unbearable last week, but, you know, we're in the eighties now, which is better than the mid nineties.

[00:00:51] Jay: Yeah, it was ridiculous. Last week, and then we went down to the shore to have a beach day and it was probably 60 degrees. I couldn't believe it. It was ridiculous. It was cold. People had jackets on. So, I guess it's all relative. so where did you grow up, buddy? And, did that have an impact on you being an entrepreneur?

[00:01:09] Jordan: I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which it might have a bit, maybe just because some of the technologies I wanted to work with and things I wanted to learn, there wasn't as, as much opportunity at the time in Pittsburgh to do those things, which kind of forced me to kind of find my own way.

and move forward there.

[00:01:27] Jay: And, what was the first business you tried to start? Was it NextLink?

It was NextLink, unless you're going to count like me trying to fix computers or like lemonade stands and,mean, look, we all started somewhere, you know, maybe it counts. 

we're trying to fix it. Do you have like a high, like a hustle in high school or something? Is that what you're talking about?

[00:01:43] Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. So I built my first computer when I was probably 12 years old. And so I was like, Oh, this is cool. I'm going to try to do this for other people, but it's tough to sell computers when you're 12.

[00:01:54] Jay: Yeah, I especially probably to anybody other than other 12 year olds,

[00:01:57] Jordan: Yeah, I only do like my family and my friends and their parents. So, you know, they were good.

[00:02:04] Jay: Yeah. Well, I mean that works so, tell me about NextLink. Where did it come from? Like, where did the idea come from? Did you always want to start a business? Like, where did this thing grow out of

[00:02:15] Jordan: Yeah. So, I went to Penn State, graduated there, do an I. S. T. which is pretty much computer science, always was programming since middle school. And so I started consulting right out of college and. Doing software consulting, basically. So I worked for a few other companies and at some point just realized, Hey, like I'm more of a self starter.

I'm probably a better boss than an employee. so my old boss can probably attest to that. And, yeah, so I just kind of started finding some side work during my full time 10 years ago. this month. So, you know, it's been a while and have just been kind of growing ever since. And so, you know, what we do is we're a technology consultancy and so we're focused on building custom software, helping to secure software applications and organizations as well as building cloud infrastructure and helping companies operate in the cloud.

[00:03:15] Jay: a lot of people? will say that they don't have time to spin up something else in the side. How did you find time to do that to the point where you could actually step away and start, you know, do a full time.

[00:03:28] Jordan: Yeah, I mean, honestly. When I started it, I was 24, 26. so I had a lot of time. I didn't need a lot of sleep. And I would say most of the time that came, I pretty much woke up in the morning and went to work and then came home and worked on my own stuff and slept too little. And, you know, so it's definitely a different ball game.

If you have a family or kids, but I think, you know, now that I have both of those things, if I had to start all over again, I'm much better at managing my time. And I think now I'm also much better at finding the most impactful things for me to do in a given day to, you know, have the best outcomes,

[00:04:08] Jay: That's an interesting point. I still. I think I'm getting better at that. I don't know if anybody else on my team would agree with that, but how did you find out what's the most impactful?

[00:04:20] Jordan: a lot of trial and error, honestly, I think, and to your point, you know, I'm still figuring it out. Like I know I'm moving in the right direction. And I think that's the kind of thing you don't measure over a week or a month. I think you measured over quarters and years. but for me, it's. Now the stage company we're at, it's more, how can I enable my team to be more impactful in the work that they're doing and have more success in the work they're doing?

Because I know that I'm only going to scale a limited amount, but my team, ostensibly can scale much larger and, you know, I can bring on more talented folks to fill in more gaps as we grow. And so, you know, for me, it's been a big shift from trying to do everything myself to Leveraging my team and really leading on, you know, their talents and their work versus, you know, just me.

[00:05:13] Jay: How long did that take to make that transition from just you doing the work to bringing somebody else on to help and then eventually, you know, working on the business instead of in the business, as people like to say.

[00:05:26] Jordan: Yeah. So I didn't bring on anybody full time until maybe 4 years. And, that was intentional. I brought on some contractors, but I just, I didn't want to hire anybody. Until I knew for sure that there was a future for them, right? Like, I was kind of undecided if I was going to stay with, like, a service company or a professional service company or a product startup.

And until I made that decision, I didn't want to bring someone on because I just didn't think it was fair to sell them on something. And then 6 months later, kind of pull the rug and say, hey, we're going in a different direction. I hope you like it. so. It took probably three or four years. So I hired my first person full time, like W2.

And then I think from that point, it was probably another three or four until I really started working on the business more than in the business. And I'm still deeply involved in my business. the part that I've really gotten away from is the actual delivery of the projects. Work on it and I'm still here as a backstop for my team, but, you know, I'm not on all the weekly syncs with our clients and things like that used to fill most of my time.

And,that was a really big change, but I think it's been good for our clients. Good for me. It's been good for our company.

[00:06:37] Jay: How did you do it? I mean, that's the, I think that's why there's a business coaching, boom, or just an industry in general is because. I mean, I would guess I've never hired a business coach, but I would assume that 95 percent of them teach people how to like, delegate basically. Right? So, like, how did you do it?

How did you get out from under having to be involved in every single project every single day and every meeting and the stand ups and all that? Because I know. 800 friends that do a couple million a year, and they're still stuck in the business all day every day. And their meeting would make my calendar would make my eyes bleed.

Just, you know, looking at it. So, what about how'd you get out of it?

[00:07:17] Jordan: Yeah. I mean, it was a combination of a couple of things. I mean, I think first and foremost, like, I had to trust my team or probably had to trust as much as I said I did. Right. I always knew I needed to trust them and wanted to, but I think I had to truly do that. I think second, honestly, I just started blocking my calendar.

I used to try to be on every meeting I could possibly be on. And it was really leading to a situation where my team was coming to me with everything. And a lot of those things were actually not relationship based, but there were issues that were coming up within my team where, because they were going to me and me.

As like a proxy, to get to the real answer and it was causing some issues within my team and it was kind of funny. I didn't really know what to expect when I blocked my calendar. But I hoped for the best and kind of a little bit of time went on and pretty much when I got back and talking to my team and our one on ones and asking how things were going, they were saying how much better they were communicating with each other and how much more productive they were being, which was really something cool to see.

I think one other big thing that I'd be remiss if I didn't mention is, and something I still struggle with, is I'm very much a doer. I want to do everything myself. And I, as in terms of like leadership types, I want to lead by example. And so I felt when I started getting more hands off, I think the. Other than fear, the biggest thing I felt was guilt.

I felt guilty for not doing everything. even though my team was like, thank God you're not doing this.but for me, I felt like I was letting them down and I had to kind of come to terms with that. It was a big change.

[00:08:54] Jay: That is a big change. Did you read any business books or like self, you know, and, reflections to like, what did you do? Cause it is a mindset shift. It's not just like, Hey, I'm going to do something different. It's like, sometimes you have to hear it or be kind of coached through it or, you know, whatever.

Like what was your method to get there? Was there any materials you use to help that?

[00:09:20] Jordan: I mean, I read most, most of the popular business books. I wouldn't say that they helped tremendously with this. I mean, I did read Built Back. Built to sell, which I think was helpful. and I did, I understood logically that at some point, if I want to exit, or even if I want to grow past a certain point, it's not gonna scale.

I can't have my hands all over everything. It's just that's not, first of all, nobody wants to buy a company like that. Second of all, I don't think I want to work at a company like that. And, third of all, who wants to run a company like that? So, you know, I knew I had to get away from it, and I think that was just, it was just kind of trial and error until I figured out how to.

Get involved in the right way. And, you know, once I got a little bit more hands off on certain things, there was another transition period, which I think I'm still at the tail end out is where I'm trying to identify, like, well, what is the CEO role? Right? Like, what is my role now? And that's something that, you know, I'm working with a coach now and helping to just kind of understand.

The things I should be doing, right? Because it's dangerous, right? You want to push things forward and move things forward, but you don't want to go back to how it was before. Because wasn't productive.

[00:10:26] Jay: No, I love that. What's your experience having a coach? Is it your first coach? And how long have you been kind of going through that process?

[00:10:35] Jordan: it's been super fresh. I think I've only met with him twice. So it actually just started, you know, about a month ago. but it's, it seems great so far. it's definitely a relief. I, you know, I think for me, I'm learning about myself. I'm learning about my journey. The end. You know, I have somebody to complain to a little bit 'cause no one wants to hear the CEO's problems, but a CEO coach kind of has to, so that's nice.

[00:10:58] Jay: and if your wife is anything like mine, she does not, that is, she will listen. but you know, she does not want to hear all my bitching and moaning. how did you pick a business coach? I mean, good God almighty. Are we as agency owners bombarded with Advertisements and direct messages and emails and everything.

How did you possibly pick 1 out of the ocean of people?

[00:11:23] Jordan: so I, it wasn't anybody that contacted me through outbound or anything like that. It was someone that, I'm in another, I'm in a, like founder community and, I had asked a question. Kind of hinting at some things I was going through and, he offered to just jump on a call and we kind of connected.

And then I asked what he did and he's like, well, I help people through these things. And, so great lead gen by him, 

[00:11:46] Jay: Yeah, I was going to 

[00:11:47] Jordan: or not.

[00:11:48] Jay: pipeline,

[00:11:48] Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, you know, I just felt like he could relate and I could relate to his journey. And I think in this case, this particular coach had gone through scaling a company and made an exit.

So not just there's a lot of coaches out there, which look, they may be great, but I think we're all a little skeptical. If you're working with a coach, maybe hasn't gone through some of the things you're going through. So it's nice to talk to somebody that's experienced some things.

[00:12:19] Jay: I agree, and built to sell. I will second that as just a good book to. If you're stuck in the business, it's a good, I just like the way it's framed as a story about a guy. You know, and like you I've read most of the business books and I did the Blinkist thing for a while and like, I think the biggest thing I realized is like, most of those books are exactly the same and they retread like the same kind of topics over and over again.

It's like, You know, built a cell was felt different and I like the way it was framed. It's a really good 1 for people who haven't read it. It's actually free and audible right now. I think so. check it out. If you haven't listened to it. so what is your role now? We talked about it a lot and you identify what those things are.

What is your job or jobs, at NextLink?

[00:13:06] Jordan: Yeah. So, you know, my company, you know, we're still under 20 folks, just shy of 20, and I have practice leads. I have professional services lead. I have someone lead sales and marketing. So, you know, increasingly my job is to set the vision, set the priorities, I'm often kind of balancing between, you know, the higher priority things we have going on.

So. If our sales funnels lagging, I'll kind of jump into that, like, Sierra role and help out there. if we're doing fine, they're having a little more problem with delivery. Like I'll go in and try to do that, but I'm really shifting towards, setting strategic direction, hiring, bringing in the right people and, You know, just kind of evangelizing company coming on podcast with you and yeah, again, helping to make sure that the company is set up for success and knowing what's ahead of us. I think that's something that I plan to do as long as I'm running this company.

[00:13:59] Jay: Are you. Engaging in an active partnership effort. Do you have partnerships? How important have they been? How important do you see them being for you guys? Like what's your take on partnerships and kind of ecosystem led growth in general?

[00:14:16] Jordan: Yeah. Partnerships have been huge for us. a lot of our business last year came through a partner. at the same time, like, we've definitely referred quite a few projects to other folks that thinks we don't do. And we've had that kind of reciprocated. And in a couple of cases, we're working on some projects with another company where we kind of make a better joint offering than isolated offerings.

So, I think it's been great. I think it's been important the end of the day, when it comes to professional services, like these bigger ticket sales items, like companies want to make sure that. Their investments are gonna be successful and lead to a successful outcome. And so I think it, it's one from like a, our company's perspective, it's a lot easier to get in there with someone else because they already have the trust.

We know we're gonna deliver. But it's hard to, it's hard to differentiate yourselves knowing, trying to differentiate, saying, Hey, like our differentiators that we're actually gonna deliver on what we say we're gonna. Because everyone says that our results say that we actually have done that, you know, everyone says that.

And so I think it's nice when you have partnerships that you kind of know who to call when you, when your clients have an issue that you can't help. And so it's been really helpful for us. I think most companies that are in the same sort of space that you and I are in have found them to be successful.

And yeah, there's some partnerships where it's a little bit more.paper pushing or just trying to, you know, take points on a deal and haven't found those to be very successful. but you know, I think when people are truly concerned with like the end customer's outcome, then those partnerships go great.

[00:15:50] Jay: Yeah, I could not agree more. I mean, it may just be the type and size of our businesses that those like transactional partnerships aren't as attractive or like lucrative, But I've, I enjoy the strategic ones much more anywhere, like, where you're developing a real relationship with somebody else, especially because they're the ones that are solving problems to common client personas.

Right? Like, if you're, if you have a bunch of the same client as I do, and we both offer complimentary services, why would we not? You know, especially somebody who wants more leads, like, why would you go 1 by 1 when you could potentially partner with somebody who has a portfolio of potential clients for you to get warm introductions off the bat.

And like you said, the trust is there. And so, yeah, I'm a huge, I'm a huge advocate of partnerships, especially when they're done. Right. And not just like, like you said, the paper pusher transaction kind of not my favorite. and I heard that early on from some. some. smart business folks that I'm friends with, they're just like, you know, we'll send you business, but we're not worried about referral fees and all this other stuff.

Like, let's just make sure we're supporting each other and our clients. So I love that a lot. how much do you pay attention to personal brand as the CEO and, you know, the face of the company and all these things, like, do you put anything into that? Do you do separate? Is there a separate, you know, Jordan from next, you know, next, next thing.

Cause it's kind of the same. Same person, same thing, or how do you deal with it?

Oh geez. I hope it's the same person. I definitely know once it is not. So that's why they're definitely different people.

[00:17:23] Jordan: yeah. So, you know, I'm definitely putting more of a focus on building my personal brand, but, you know, I'm doing that for NextLink for, You know, I think I have some good insight to offer both in growing a business as well as a lot of the technology things that I've learned over the years. And I just want to share that insight.

And that's really what I hope when someone looks at my brand online, they think, hey, that's what he's offering. Right? And I think that's very much in line with. What NextLink does. And so to me, I think that's how I want to grow my brand. That's how I think about my brand. and honestly, that's how I think about NextLinks brand.

Like we're a very honest, we're very transparent, we're very well communicating company, and you know, I'd hope that my brand represents that as well as any of my like, you know, senior leaders and hopefully everyone in my company, and I think they do. But yeah, different people have different levels of comfort with growing their own personal brand.

And that's been, something I've observed.

[00:18:25] Jay: so who was your first customer?

[00:18:28] Jordan: Yeah. So, and you're going to ask me this question. 

[00:18:31] Jay: I would hope you would. I hope you were anticipating this at some point today. Yes,

[00:18:35] Jordan: but I, but my answer is I'm going to cheat because my first customer I got through, my parents actually was a family friend. I built a Django app. That's an interesting story, but we'll leave that one aside. I'll go to Mike. We'll go to 1B. If that's okay. so, so my first customer that I truly found was they were a, a sports, publication and they had a website, like a, pay, pay blog, very similar to like the athletic, but before the athletic.

And, they were, I was subscribing to them trying to get lots of news about the sports teams that I follow. And. It was just the site was crashing all the time. And so, at some point, I just reached out and just said, hey, like, do you need help? Because this is what I can help you with this stuff. And they were like, oh, my God, please.

We don't know what to do. Please help. And I think within, like, a day, I was over at their place might have been a coffee shop or something and, You know, we figured something out and kind of just went forward from there and worked for a few years.

[00:19:35] Jay: That's a great story.that's very much like the entrepreneur is kind of like knocking on doors. you know, mindset. I love that. How big of an Eagles fan are you going to be this year because Saquon's on the team? I have to ask you. A

[00:19:51] Jordan: I love Saquon. I went to Penn State, so it's I have an interesting relationship with Philly sports because I didn't hate them and I love my friends, but I don't know if you know this, but Philly sports fans have a little bit of a reputation.

[00:20:04] Jay: little bit.

[00:20:04] Jordan: And, they can kind of rub you the wrong way.

So, you know, I, I don't, I never hated the Eagles, but sometimes I do now. 

[00:20:13] Jay: Sometimes you do. Alright, that's fair. So you're black and gold. and that's fine.

[00:20:17] Jordan: but of all the Phillies of all the Philly sports teams, I think the Eagles, I used to love like the Eagles in high school, Donovan McNabb is playing T. O. Westbrook.that was a fun, that was a fun team. I was rooting against them when they were playing the Falcons 

[00:20:31] Jay: Yeah, that was a fun time. And then the dream team,was an interesting time as well. all right. 1 more question, non business related. Obviously, that question wasn't business related either, but it was very important to talk about as sports fans. if you do anything on earth, and you knew you wouldn't fail. What would it be

[00:20:49] Jordan: Ooh, anything on earth. This is easy. I'd be a professional golfer. 

[00:20:53] Jay: professional? Look, I mean, not even a hesitation. you were waiting to tell somebody that you want to be a professional.

[00:20:58] Jordan: Oh yeah, for sure. You could ask my wife, she thinks I'm still trying to be one, but 

[00:21:02] Jay: That's great. I love that answer. How often do you play?

[00:21:05] Jordan: I try to get out at least twice a week, but 

[00:21:08] Jay: Twice a week. And you got kids, right? How many kids do you have?

[00:21:11] Jordan: I have two. I have a two and a half year old and a, six or seven month old.

Oh, six. Wow, you've got, you got a trooper of a wife if she's letting you. You must have some nice, like, reciprocating deal there if you're getting out twice a week to the course. Yeah, it's, I said I'd like to play twice a week. I think 

[00:21:29] Jay: Oh, okay. All right. Okay. 

[00:21:31] Jordan: but no, I do my best and I, you know, my wife and I, we try to find some good balance to, you know, Help us both kind of maintain our sanity, but we're definitely in it with the two little ones. That's for sure.

[00:21:42] Jay: Yes. but what else would we be doing? Right? enjoying our time, I guess, but, well, it's been great talking to you, man. If you want to find out more about NextLink, how did they do that? And if they want to get in touch with you about anything you saw on the show, how did they do that?

[00:21:56] Jordan: Sure. So, you know, our website is nextlinklabs. com. you can probably see my name spelled under my face here. That's the website, jordannextlinklabs. com. You know, we're at NextLink labs on every, you know, LinkedIn, Twitter, all that fun stuff. So you can reach me there, any questions and I'll be happy to answer anything you guys need.

[00:22:16] Jay: Beautiful. All right, man. Well, I'll leave this by saying go birds and you can say, whatever it is that you like to say.

[00:22:23] Jordan: Go birds. How about that?

[00:22:26] Jay: I won't show it to any of your family will see this. So it's fine. You can say it out loud. it was awesome talking to your brother. Let's stay in touch and, good luck with everything.

We'll talk soon. All right.

[00:22:34] Jordan: Thank you. You 

[00:22:35] Jay: Thanks. 

[00:22:36] Jordan: See ya. 

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