Permission to Soar: Lessons from Wicked for Work and Life

We’re leaping off into Wicked—not just the music and magic, but what it reveals about life and work. In this episode of To Live List, my co-host Tara Robertson and I unpack themes like allyship, colorism, and resilience through the lens of this iconic story. From how bold casting choices challenge norms to the surprising lessons musicals can teach us about the workplace, nothing is off the table. We share personal moments, like finding the courage to leap into the unknown, and dive into bigger questions about how art reflects and shapes society. Whether you’re here for Wicked or just love great conversations, join us as we defy gravity together.

Checkout Our Blog called Tune-In for episode recaps and more show notes.

Chapters

• 0:33 Episode Intro
• 1:54 Host Intros
• 5:26 What spectacular casting
• 9:41 The Many Faces of Women in Wicked
• 11:17 Our Favorite Moments
• 15:58 Representation and Fandoms
• 20:39 Allyship and Belonging in the Ozdust Ballroom
• 26:22 Checking in on the Wizard
• 30:35 Power and Defying Gravity
• 31:06 ⚠️ Spoiler Alert ⚠️
• 33:23 Art is so Important

Transcript

Theme Music (00:00):

Trust me, you don't want to miss D Greenville. This is to live list by life and wellness. I'm saying it's what you really need. Sharing the life advice and good energy seeking, understanding amazing topics from ransom, rambling. You beat a fan, win, you pee the channel, face your fears, overcome eternal battles. Let's go now.

Delia (host) (00:26):

Welcome back to the live list. I'm your host, Delia Grenville, and this season we're diving into the idea of permission, what it means to give it, take it, and really own it. Today I'm teaming up with my amazing co-host, Tara Robertson. Tara's a diversity, equity and inclusion strategist who's got this incredible knack for making tough conversations, feel approachable. We've got a live audience with us and we're taking on some big themes inspired by the film Wicked. We'll be answering questions, swapping stories, and unpacking how art, workplace dynamics and personal growth all connect in ways that might just surprise you. Let's get into it.

Tara (co-host) (01:16):

I am so glad you reached out to have this conversation and thank you for all doing all the technical setup. What a pain, but we did it. We did it.

Delia (host) (01:26):

Yeah. I always say that it's a part of being here in this world. You just get this technology is part of the entire experience and you're supposed to grow from it. So there we go. Thanks for everyone who's been so patient waiting for us. I know Tara is asking for people questions and keeping them busy and well, let's jump in.

Tara (co-host) (01:49):

Why did you, let's introduce ourselves and talk about what we loved about the movie first.

Delia (host) (01:56):

Yeah, so I'm Delia Grenville and I have been working in tech most of my life. I like to joke that it's like a complete form of purgatory, which today was exactly the example of it. I must've done something in a past life to keep me working in tech, and it's supposed to be for my spiritual growth. So here I'm, I now work for myself as a coach and a consultant in the high tech area, and I love and have always loved television content, film, et cetera, finding ways to incorporate it. So this is such a great opportunity.

Tara (co-host) (02:33):

You're also an expert in mobbing. A little more,

Delia (host) (02:38):

I'm so mobbing is workplace group aggression or it could be anywhere. This group Aggression happens and oftentimes what you'll do is you'll have, what will happen is a newcomer will come into an environment and sort of change the dynamic. That's how that environment works. And people get annoyed and frustrated and they sort of, instead of having a healthy discourse and doing conflict management or something like that, what they do instead is they get really quiet, really silent. If you know any of Kim Scott's work on Radical Candor, mobbing is in the home of manipulative insincerity and instead of telling you the truth to your face, people aren't saying anything. It's a very silent quadrant, and their goal is to get rid of that person, to get them out of the organization or church or hospital, wherever they are, and get back to the way things were because in their minds, they believe that the way it was was perfect before this person came along. And it's a really inner, it's such a insular way of thinking and definitely not our best human selves. We saw the beginnings of this kind of behavior in Wicked Part One. And one of the things that I like to talk about all the time, Tara, is it could have gone to full-on mobbing. We'll talk about that later. I don't want to go to a spoiler, but we should be really hopeful about the world that we live in because writers show us the possibility of making different choices. So I'll leave it at that.

Tara (co-host) (04:13):

My name's Tara Robertson. I am based in Vancouver, Canada. My career was through libraries and academic libraries in tech, and I'm also a consultant in the diversity, equity, and inclusion space on the strategy side. And I support individuals and teams as a coach. And when Delia reached out to be like, Hey, do you want to have this conversation? There's so many themes, I'm like, I haven't seen the movie yet, but I'm going to go. When I was watching the movie in the theater, I was watching it through the lens of like, how does this connect to the workplace? I was like, oh, there are so many things here. Some of the things that I've experienced, some of the things that I've seen my clients experience and dynamics that I've helped support leaders navigate through. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. There's a wee bit of a lag from our live conversation to the stream on LinkedIn, so I'll keep an eye on the comments. I'm really glad people are here. Thanks for making time. We're holding space.

Delia (host) (05:15):

Exactly. I would defy gravity. That's exactly the pinky hold for anyone who's seen the promos. So I think one of the things that I really liked about the film is of course the casting. I think the casting has really sort of made the story more accessible. I've seen it on Broadway and definitely was not cast the way it was cast in the film. And you feel a lot for Alphabet and for Galinda and the characters in their growth. But this casting does something else in terms of making the story hit home. What did you think about the casting?

Tara (co-host) (05:56):

I'm not a musical fan. I wasn't a musical fan until I saw this, and now I'm regretting not seeing Wicked when I was in New York. But the casting of, and just the media show that her and Ariana Grande have been on, it's so interesting for me, they're both great singers, is phenomenal. Sorry, Cynthia Arrivo is phenomenal. She does her own stunts and she's British and does a pretty flawless American accent. So for me, there's that parallel to the workplace where black women, women of color in general, but black women specifically, really have to hit an amazing level of excellence to be on par with white women who are not at that level.

Delia (host) (06:41):

Yeah, Cynthia Arrivo is almost an ego, right?

Theme Music (06:46):

What

Delia (host) (06:48):

She is, what an ego is.

Tara (co-host) (06:50):

Pardon me? I learned this word.

Delia (host) (06:52):

Oh, okay. Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, Tony. So I believe she's only missing the Oscar. All the awards, all the accolades, all the thing. And she's also the vice president of Rada, which is the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. So when she's 37 and Ariana Grande is 31, and you do need to have that distance in age for the story to work as well. So I do want to at least preface that with Ari is doing a great job. She actually put in a lot of time to get into that role and I think she'll be rewarded for the performance that she gave. It is par for the course though, as you're saying, in the workplace dynamic. For them to have taken Cynthia Riva in that role, she really had to be like, I won't compare it to Ariana Grand Grande, but I would compare to all the other alphabets who probably applied for that role.

(07:53):

She probably had to be twice as good, three times as good in terms of spectacular with all the accreditations that she had in order to get the role. And also because Tara, I think it challenges the belief system of this society that we live in where so much of the stories are centered around whiteness. Even though this is a story like Wizard of Oz, where do you have a talking lion? A goat who's an instructor and a bear who's a nanny. These things are not real, but every time that we, even in these fantasy worlds try to put in characters who are not white presenting, there is a pushback from society. I assume

Tara (co-host) (08:39):

Also Michelle Yo as the, I don't Madam Mor, I didn't know the name until after the show. I was just like, Michelle yells character for me. She is just her whole career, she's such a badass. And I was like, oh, yay. Alphabet's character has this older woman of color in the academy who sees her uniqueness, sees her capability, and mentors her, and we're going to put spoilers in this, but I was just so heartbroken. It was like a stab in the heart when she betrays her at the end, I was just like, no. But also someone pointed out lots of women of color, non-black women of color betray black women in the workplace. That is not new.

Delia (host) (09:37):

I think, you know what, I'm going to say this. I'm going to say it's going to be here live. It's going to be on video. Whoever's going to hire me, they're going to hear me say it. Listen, women are not a monolith. And I think it's time we start to understand that women are not monolith and we have all the range of human dimensions and emotions as the other gender on this planet or genders on this planet. We are capable of them. We have intention, we have agenda, we have all the things, and we have been so limited, first of all in our ability to be in the workplace, to have the fullness of our lives in America, to have the rights over our own bodies that we get typecast into us having to be this cohesive group. Just put the women together. And I think that's one of the nice things about this play is it's like we have Nessa who we'll find out more about in Wicked part two, we have Alpha, we have Galinda, we have Madam Mor, and all of them are different types of women with different agendas. They have a full story. They actually live, I think, in more fullness than we do in the real world. I love

Tara (co-host) (10:54):

That. So people who are here, what do you think of the casting and what moments stood out to you from the movie or the Broadway play or the book, but mostly the movie? Do you have a favorite moment from the movie Delia?

Delia (host) (11:20):

I went to see, I know, right? I went to see it again on Wednesday. I felt like, did I miss something? Right? I always like it when the baby reveals that they have powers. Remember in the Incredibles, like Jack, the baby doesn't have powers Jack, Jack has powers. So we learned right away that Alpha has, alpha has powers right in the first scene. Her father wants to discard her because of her coloring, and Let's talk colorism, let's go next. But are you

Tara (co-host) (11:55):

Aware of that when the child discovers they have powers, that's a favorite moment across genres and in this one specifically.

Delia (host) (12:02):

Yeah, exactly. I love that when you see a baby and the baby has powers, right? Yeah, I like that. Let just want

Tara (co-host) (12:07):

Mine. I'll go to colorism next.

Delia (host) (12:09):

Yeah,

Tara (co-host) (12:09):

I kind liked when they became roommates and there was that navigation of space and closet space and swinging on the chandelier, the singing and the dancing was so spectacular. But there was also a little bit of, I don't know, queer subtext for me. I was like, is there sexual tension? What's going on here? There felt like there was something else that was a little uncomfortable. And I'm like, I don't think that was there. Or I don't think that was intended maybe. But a couple of queer people online have been like, yeah, there's a little bit of tension. And that moment was kind of delicious for me. Colorism.

Delia (host) (12:54):

Yeah. I just want to go back to what you were saying though. I think we lost something in this society in our, I don't know, I don't want to say this negatively, but we kind of have this, I guess, homophobia in the society that stops us in some ways from interacting when we're in same gender relationships that don't exist. When you're in Italy or Switzerland, you just walk hand in hand with your friend. I hear in India as well, and there's no judgment to that because of course the four types of love, someone right there, agape, et cetera, that friendship love is a real love. And you'll see school girls, even when I was in South America, they're just arm in arm walking beside each other and there's no judgment on that. So I think it was good that they tried to recapture that in the film. I think it's something, it's a form of togetherness that we lack now because we have to hold everyone at such distance because everything that we do is being judged by the lens of others.

Tara (co-host) (14:08):

And even opposite sex friendships, or I'm a queer woman in most of my world are women, and I've met some really phenomenal straight men this year and just hugging them or being like, oh, it's so good to see you. And it's like people watching interesting tension there.

Delia (host) (14:26):

Yeah, that's what I liked about. I know we're not getting to colorism. Give us a second. But that's what I liked about Fieros character because there was sort of a real shirking of that. He know how he was flirting with Ariana Grande. He was flirting with alphabet, he was flirting with the munchkin. I mean, he loved himself so much that he knew everybody loved him. Can the world get enough of me? And I think some ways we're all missing a little bit about

Tara (co-host) (14:55):

That. The other thing I loved about FI's character is when he met Alphabet in the forest and she went into her, no, I didn't eat grass. No this. And he just said, what was his line? He goes,

Delia (host) (15:09):

What about the defensiveness?

Tara (co-host) (15:10):

I just love that he's sort of the Jimbo character, but he's not.

Delia (host) (15:18):

Yeah, he's not. And we get to learn that later, but we can't spoil that for people haven't seen that film

Tara (co-host) (15:22):

Doesn't get away with her regular kind of defensiveness.

Delia (host) (15:27):

And I think because of the colorism within the family that she was born in, soba is born in a, I guess biracial family. It looks like her mother was mixed race and her dad is something, and then she comes out green and she's immediately discarded. I don't know. I know how it is. I see online in Hispanic cultures, Asian cultures, black African-American cultures, this adjacency to whiteness will have kids who come out all different hues saying that even within their own family that they have experienced not being liked because people want them to, in the Dominican, they always say better the race and keep yourself as light-skinned as possible. And also some people, I had some friends that I knew were Asian who just didn't even go in the sun because they don't want to tan or darken

Tara (co-host) (16:29):

It in that way. Phil's in the comment saying, I love the casting of the film as opposed to the play. And it's creating space for us to talk about colorism and homophobia and loving across difference. And Rebecca Foley's in the chat also saying, I think that one of the big things about the musical, I haven't seen it, but I've heard is this queer context. I watch it with my trans kid and love that aspect.

Delia (host) (16:52):

Where

Tara (co-host) (16:52):

Do we want to go

Delia (host) (16:53):

Next? I want to talk about why fandoms work for these conversations. What is it? Because clearly these are the topics that we're talking about right now in our real world and they're very divisive. People can't have this kind of even, they can't come anywhere near their enjoyment of the wicked musical in these conversations. And yet when we're in a fandom, we can do it. I mean, in some ways it gives me hope and I want to be focused on that hopeful part. But then in some ways I'm really frustrated and wanting to shake us, Hey, come on. It's not bothering you. That fieros flirting with the munchkin. What's bothering? So if you can do that here in the theater, why can't you do it in real life?

Tara (co-host) (17:44):

We also talked about this when we did our prep call, the genre of musicals and musical theater. It's not a serious genre, but also it enables other things to happen. You're a fan of the genre. Can you say more?

Delia (host) (17:58):

Yeah. I think one thing that people don't realize with musical theater is those who have trained for it have to be experts in acting, experts in singing and experts in dancing. So it's really intense bringing those three aspects together. And you said musical theater isn't serious, and I don't think you meant that. I think it's a serious art form, but it's usually the topics tend to be more, there's some levity. There's usually comedy in musical theater, although I've seen some that are more serious. But there's usually that humor, some humorous aspect to sort of release people from having this sort of the triple impact watching their feet move, you are hearing their voices sing, and plus they're telling a story at the same time. So I really kudos to those who can do it. And I want to say kudos to Arianna Grande too, who dropped, who was willing to stop her tour, although she didn't need to because like whatever the timing is, I'm auditioning for this.

(19:10):

And she went on lockdown six months of acting lessons, plus six months of vocal lessons to get a more operatic voice similar to Kristen Chenowith. So I, and I know hats off to all creatives because I think we really, in our world, especially my world coming from tech, we look at creators as flaky. And I say any creative who gets the job done and is getting their work done is probably one of the best project managers you've ever met. I mean, how do you do a nine month sculpture and then get it to the museum on time? You have a plan and you deliver to that plan and sometimes you deliver to a spec. And then I always say, we also don't allow our tech people to be creative enough. Our tech people have, we don't talk about their creativity, these things that they put on the world. Tara, this is true creativity, and we kind of put people in the boxes and there's a lot of putting in boxes, but in fandoms, somehow you can be free.

Tara (co-host) (20:12):

Rebecca brought this up earlier when we were having tech issues, one of my favorite scenes, and we talked about this one as well, was at the club where Alphabet walks in with the hat that Galinda gave her. And Galinda kind of set her up. Oh, you got a hat. And then she does her weird dance.

Delia (host) (20:34):

Yes.

Tara (co-host) (20:37):

And then Glinda, everyone's sort shunning her like, what the hell is she doing? And I love with her body how much Alphabet commits to her dance and she's in it and then Galinda steps in and does her dance with her. There was a lot going on in that scene for me. I'm not sure you need

Delia (host) (21:05):

To watch the music twice. Is it a

Tara (co-host) (21:06):

Movie ship or something else?

Delia (host) (21:11):

No, because that was the scene where I think really struck me the most when I watched the second time. Because I think the first time, you're just, whatever you feel about shame, whatever your emotions are about not fitting in all of us, I hope. I don't know. I mean, go through some situation like that where we didn't fit in, especially we were little and we didn't know what to do. So it brings quickly back your experience of it and you've brought a quell that down. But in the second viewing of it, I could look at the production and I could see that although her moves were strong, her tears were there, she refused to flee.

(21:57):

And just a little bit of betrayal, her sister there, her sister doesn't wheel forward. Her sister's desperately wanting to fit in herself, so she stays backward. And there's the cuckooing of the little gossip posse that lives around Galinda and they're like, Ooh, what is she doing? And of course, they were the ones who had set her up with the hat to begin with. And then G Glenda's inner critic speaks out loud, I should do something about this. I should do something about this. Because there's a scene where she finds out right before that happens, a level of generosity that she never expected from Alphabet, remember? And then, but good for her to have that reciprocity. And I think sometimes I'm going to all places now before you do somewhere else.

Tara (co-host) (22:45):

There's one other thing I want to say about the scene.

Delia (host) (22:50):

I want to say about the scene too. I mean, I am going to one place there because Belinda had the moment to be a real, what we call in today's world, a Karen, I hate the terminology, but she could have been in that whole Karen moment, right? Still there with the theater, with a film, looking at her and whatever. And she does something different. And that's what always gives me hope because the writers show if we can't do it in real life, then we can show it on screen tons and tons and times. Again, you got a different choice, you have a different choice. There's a different way this narrative can work out.

Tara (co-host) (23:31):

Interesting. There weren't cell phones. None of the students had cell phones or mobiles. No,

(23:37):

Like the Karen for me, when I saw, and I've only seen it once, I thought Galinda was so distraught by her own guilt and was so uncomfortable with that, that that's what moved her in. But I was talking to my wife about it, and when she stepped into dance with Alphabet, she didn't tell Alphabet, you're doing it wrong. She did her best attempt to do alphabet's dance and it wasn't as good. So there was something there. I was like, she could have been like, no, no, no, that's not how it goes. But instead with her body in this room, she's like, yes, I'm going to do it with you. I'm going to do your dance with you in front of all these people. And I was like, Ooh, there was something there.

Delia (host) (24:26):

You're hitting the nail on the head for me about the writers show us how. Right? Because that's allyship. Don't come in here and tell me how it could have been better if you did blah, blah, blah, whatever. That's allyship. Let me be with you in your space to show you solidarity. And that's why I say beautiful about art and this art form, especially musical theater because you've got all those dimensions and latitude because they've got the body and they've got the dance and they've got the song. And at that moment it's instrumental. There are no words.

(25:06):

And that's a deliberate choice. And then there's this mirroring of the choreography and the sensing of one another. And I think those are the expectations, right? I mean, in our highest selves and our best selves, when we go, when we're in those moments, what the heck is going on in this workplace? And we go to the person to say, this is happening to me. Like you just said, we don't want them to say, well, you could have done it this way. You could have done it that way. We want them to see us and to work with us.

Tara (co-host) (25:40):

We've got about 10 minutes left. We have so many things you wanted to talk about. Where do you want to go next?

Delia (host) (25:48):

Hi Parker. I'm glad you here. Wow. I think one of the things that we didn't talk about is the role of the Wizard.

Tara (co-host) (26:00):

Yeah. I liked your post the other day where you're like, he's kind like the CEO, and you think that the person at the top is taking care of all of us and has our best interest at mind. But do they really?

Delia (host) (26:14):

Yes. Who they, what is going on? We all like to believe that the person above us is orchestrating on the behalf of all of us. And I think what we learn in this story is yes and no orchestrating on the behalf of all of us, and also orchestrating on behalf of his own agenda. And both things can be true at the same time. He's definitely a persona that's looked up to in the society that he's in, which is fine, but he also reveals himself. And right away they need me to put on this big show and whatever, but I'm not like that. I can't see anything. And the second time I saw it, I said, you know what mileage always says when people tell you who they are, believe them. The first time he told them who he was, I'm not this big thing that they made me out to be. They need me to be this way. I'm just my own dude self dealing with my own problems. What did you think about him?

Tara (co-host) (27:30):

I think that the parallel to the CEO is really, it's a really good metaphor. Some CEOs consider part of their responsibility. They're people, people and making sure their people are good and considering their people. And that's not the main part of their job structurally. And for profit companies, it's to make money. So the goals that they're being held accountable and what they're balancing, the people always aren't often the primary concern. It's making money. And even the Emerald City, like the color of green, the sparkle sparkle, the razzle dazzle out here and then behind, it's like a guy operating a large puppet. Yeah,

Delia (host) (28:28):

If I see it a third time, I will not go back to the theater. So I'll let you guys know that. I hope. I think also a lot of the color choices, money is the color, green is the color of our money. I was thinking there were a lot of specifics around there that were also the original story. I can't remember who the author is of the Wicked book, but just the original story that this green entity Wizard of Oz, I couldn't remember that this green entities out there luring you. Right? I think that's probably by design like Vic

Tara (co-host) (29:07):

In the chat, CEO EO is greedy capitalists. See, CEO O is authoritarian slash fascist. Yeah, definitely those archetypes. Yeah. We talk about the final scene where it was everything for me.

Delia (host) (29:23):

Why did you

Tara (co-host) (29:23):

Like the song? I loved it because she realized she didn't need Madam Mor, she didn't need this other stuff that within her, she had all of this power and knowledge and ability. It was within her. It wasn't for someone to bestow from the outside to her, and she just had to believe in herself. And that's definitely been part of my career story. And I see it with so many women of color being told to get the promotion, you need to do this, you need to do that. You don't quite have the right degrees or you don't have the right certs. And it's like my clients, they've known all along that they've got what it takes, but you absorb the story that you need to wait for someone else to bestow it on you. And you forget that sometimes you forget your power. And for me, it was just like she remembered who she was and leapt off the building and she didn't fly right away. She plummeted for the first while I'm curious for me, she saw her child self in the reflection. They both reached out to each other. What was going on in that moment in your reading?

Delia (host) (30:42):

Wow, it's a really intense scene for anyone who gets to see the movie, like all the ones coming up, right? So there's that sense for me, I still think I was still reconciling the betrayal of the folks around her who were completely exploiting her abilities. The Wizard, Madam Mor Galinda, at least it was mutual in some ways. Do you know what I'm saying? They became friends and I do believe they have become friends at that point, but I was still processing her exploitation and how I think a lot of times in reality it is at that moment when the employee or me, whoever we are at that crisis moment, and I just think more things can't pile on to us that we have to make this decision, which is jump or stay here and see what other torture they have for you. Which is basically where, but that's where she was ending up. It was out the window or she wasn't going to be her own person. And I know people are thinking we could be that deep, but if you let yourself sort of absorb this narrative, there's so many things packed in there. And would you leap, I know like you said, she leapt and she didn't fly at the beginning. And I think how many times we get to the window and we go to Leap and then we're, we look down the ground, we think, well, the torture might be better.

Tara (co-host) (32:30):

And the song defying Gravity and just when she's soaring in the sky on her broom and her voice is, so I've played it probably five times every day and it lifts my heart and my spirit and it's so powerful.

Delia (host) (32:50):

It is. It really is. I don't know, we start late, but I think we probably have to wrap up now. So art, art is just so important. We found that out. I think during the Pandemic, what really got you through movies, music, that kind of stuff. We need art. It's a way of communicating with one another. And this particular Wicked Story, fandom film, the expertise of John two and all of the production, the casting, the actors, the music. And also we didn't talk about the styling when they go on the press junkets because even you and I, we went wicked for these guys, right? Because Cynthia and Aria Ne Grande have sort of set the tone that it's okay to get dressed on a Friday 13th in your Wicked clothing for your LinkedIn live right present. So it's all of those things. We need beauty in our world and we need to be able to face the toughness of some of the human experience. And I think the fandoms give us that opportunity to have these conversations and perhaps grow from them. Your thoughts,

Tara (co-host) (34:11):

I'm just watching the last couple comments come in the chat and the songs moved. Other people, people are just saying Thanks for this and thank you people for showing up and especially being patient. Lots of things are magic in the world, but it videos for me is not, I don't know. I really admire your work. I appreciate who you are in the world. And when you invited me to think out loud with you, I was just delighted. And this has been really, really fun. I love how you think and how you see the World

Delia (host) (34:46):

Mutual all the time. Thank you for putting everyone at ease. I don't know if they know that they were with a genius who was just really calm while all the things are going on with my tech person, AK and my husband. We were trying to figure out why this wasn't happening. We just didn't know. If we went over to the other screen, we would see the Go Live button, not clear. Hopefully someone will put that there, but it's the willingness to explore. And I think Tara, you really just do that every day just to get that there, get that out to people. And we hope by doing this that our intention was clear that folks will see this movie or maybe not see this movie, but at least explore some of these themes in their life because these are important conversations. Thank

Tara (co-host) (35:35):

You. I got my broom. Happy Friday the 13th. Turns out I can't play the song to close us out, but this was a delight. Thank you everyone. Have a great weekend.

Theme Music (35:46):

Thank you.