Mountain Cog
Mountain bike podcast that will make you laugh and learn. Featuring a wide range of passionate guests. Available everywhere (Apple, Spotify etc).
Mountain Cog
069 – Nipple management… and other annoying mountain bike stuff. (Part 1)
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In this episode Josh and Dane discuss and debate (argue even) about annoying mountain bike stuff. Some of the topics we debate on include…
- Presta valves + chunky sealant.
- Dunlop valves.
- British brake lever setup (rear brake on left / front brake right).
- MOAB closing its lift (yes, they had one).
- Spoke holes inside rims (requires rim tape = tubeless system failure point).
- Nipple management.
- Rim tape that won’t stick.
- Overwhelming # of mountain bike tire variants. (width, tread patterns, compounds, casings).
- YouTube “expert advice” on mountain bike tires.
- Microscopic sized rotation indicators on mountain bike tires.
- Accidentally putting tires on the rim, backwards.
- Flat mount disc brake caliper mounts = frequent alignment issues.
- Monster gravel bikes.
- Mountain bike standards constantly changing.
- Press fit bottom brackets.
Here’s some links & corrections from the episode…
- WTH is a Dunlop Valve? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunlop_valve
- BTW… brass is not magnetic. (but brass plated could be).
- Maxxis Forekaster… https://www.maxxis.com/us/tire/forekaster/
- Monster Gravel Bikes… https://chelaclo.com/en/what-is-a-monster-cross/
- Motorex Bicycle Lubricant… https://motorex.com/en-ch/product-range/grease--5470?selectedFilterValues={%22line--704135%22:%22BIKE+LINE%22}&page=1
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Mountain Biking in Tucson
JoshHey man , do you know what the difference is between a mountain biker and a savings bond ?
DaneOh god , I know it's a joke , but for some reason my brain tries to make sense of it . Don't think too hard . No , I don't know .
JoshSo the difference between a mountain biker and a savings bond . Eventually , the savings bond will mature and make money . And a mountain biker probably will never mature and never make any money .
DaneI'm going to get that tattooed on me . That is pretty much my mantra from now on .
JoshAlright , so it's Monday night . You just got back from Bootleg .
DaneCanyon Bootleg .
JoshCanyon doing your downhill race . Congratulations on your podium . That's awesome , Thank you . Good to feel back in the saddle again .
DaneWe like to say I didn't die , you did crash . But you didn't die , I did crash , I did lose , I left a little bit of me on the mountain . But yeah , we did really well as a team . Both we got let's see a first , a second in the Super D . We got two third places in the downhill , so that wasn't too bad .
JoshRight , that's super good . Yeah , that's awesome . Yeah , and we just did . I'm not going to call what we did a mountain bike ride . It was kind of like a half mountain bike ride .
DaneIt was a cool down for me . It was a good like recovery ride . Yeah , like I'll go on a mountain bike weekend and I end up riding a ton and then when I get back it's like I take two weeks off and I blow all of that little bit of fitness that I put in , and so I really enjoyed that because it's going to keep me going , you know . So if I can get a couple more in this week , I'll keep that fitness going .
JoshBut I got a real serious question for you . Today's the first time we've ridden together . Yes , I've talked previously about how I'm not that good . Have you changed your mind about being a co-host after you rode with me ? No , not at all .
DaneYou know what you dropped me on one of the hills .
JoshI did drop you on one of the hills and that made my whole ride , by the way , just say it all I'm going to try not to let that happen again .
DaneBut you know , I've never been an uphiller . My nickname is downhill .
JoshDane , that's what your email is too .
DaneAnd so I've always been like that and I just no matter how much I work I never like climbing , even when I'm good at it . I didn't like it .
JoshSo that was a cruise we rode at like 11 miles an hour . It was awesome . Usually I'm 12 and a half when I'm out there , so I usually ride that a lot faster . So it was just a nice little cruise . We stopped and chatted a bunch we bullshitted and ran into people we know . Everywhere I go . How is it that you know people ?
Daneeverywhere . You know I've been doing this a long time . Tuesday is small and I just you know , I don't know . I think I've pissed off enough people that they just know who I am , so yeah , Well , for our international listeners we're not that small .
JoshThe Tucson Metro Center is more than a million people , I think .
DaneYes , yeah , if you include suburbs yeah , suburbs , yeah , yeah , yeah , veil and Moran , yeah .
JoshSo so Rita Salarita .
DaneBut it's , we have one . What two highways , one highway going through the highway system sucks in .
JoshNo offense to Sam Credio , who we had on previously for transportation , but like it sucks .
DaneI think personally . I think Tucson actively keeps it small . I do . I think they're they're trying to do that on purpose . And you know , when I go to Phoenix I get frustrated . You know Phoenix has got a loops all over the place . I never know which highway to take . I mean , it's insane .
DaneEvery , every mountain biker that I know in Phoenix says the same thing they go to one trail even though they're all over up there , because every other trail is an hour and a half away . So and here I would say hour to 30 minutes at the most- yeah , 30 minutes to an hour , yeah .
JoshAnd , and no matter where you're at , whether you're North , south , east or West , there's trails you know , we you know within 30 minutes of you a number of trails , right so .
DaneYeah , and as big as it is , I definitely feel like it's a small vibe .
JoshYeah , small city vibe Well , well spread out , I mean literally like one of the best places to ride a bike , whether it's a road bike or a mountain bike , in the world .
DaneI think so . Yeah , I , I . It's a kind of a secret , it is , it is .
JoshAnd actually we have that , that . You know the Tucson's a hidden gem for for mountain biking specifically . And uh , you know Tara talked about that in her episode with homegrown about how and I think we actually named the title of the podcast , like you know , mount Lemons like a , like a hidden secret , and anyone that comes here is like holy shit , this is amazing .
DaneWhat do you guys have here ? It's really amazing and and and I've said this before I've been to other places and Tucson's just got so much .
JoshIf we could just somehow air condition place , it would probably increase the number of people and decrease the awesomeness of it that's about .
DaneThe only drawback is June , July and August , but other than that it's amazing .
JoshWell , hey , listen . So , like one of the things we want to do is enlist our customers , our listeners . Yes , uh , to a couple of things . One is if you have comments , questions , anything , send us an email at mountain cog at gmailcom . If I say it a third time , they'll remember mountain cog at gmailcom . Send us any questions that you have . Facebook , facebook , yeah , there you go . We're on Facebook at mountain cog , we're at Instagram at mountain cog . But , um , but specifically , maybe maybe you have things you want us to talk about on the podcast , or questions , or you want to just tell us for idiots , we're happy to hear that . Or we're wrong . Or we're wrong yeah , love to hear that too . Or we're right , or we're right . Yeah , that's even better . Yeah , I'm down with that . We're going to ride , where to stay and just hit us up .
DaneYeah , absolutely .
JoshWe'd be happy to happy to talk to you .
DaneUm , yeah , we get that at the shop all the time . Where people come into town they just want to know where to ride , and half the time we direct them to one of the clubs in town , which really helps . You know they can . They can connect with a lot of good biking clubs here yeah . And and there's a lot of the trails in town actually have maps at the intersections , which is really nice , and everything's on trail forks , right .
JoshSo just you know you know , throw outdoor or pink bikes some cash and they own trail forks and you can find it and and and , yeah , yeah , with trail forks you'll be fine on here yeah For sure .
Bike Valve Debate
JoshSo it's a . It's Monday night , like we said , uh , post race , uh , kind of . I think this is our what is this ? The third , fourth episode we recorded .
DaneWe did , we did you . This is the fourth .
JoshThis is the fourth Wow Got it , it's gone fast .
DaneIt's fine .
JoshDoesn't feel like it's . It's been that many , but this the fourth , fourth episode , yep . Uh , just day and night tonight , yep . So it would be cool if we could talk , discuss , maybe even argue about stupid things with bikes and the bike industry . I like arguing in general . Um , we , we definitely don't agree on everything , nope , and y'all just going to have to deal with that , yep .
DaneThat's why it's called an opinion yes .
JoshWe , we , we got a list of stuff to run through , um , about things that we think are silly or stupid in the bike bike industry . Again , we're kind of , you know , focusing on mountain bikes , although we do have a couple things that are road bike specific but um but uh , with that , I think we'll just jump right in yeah . So , like , uh , you're looking at a list there . Yeah , so I made a list .
DaneSo , uh , we had this discussion about Presta valves , so um press , now this . This one came from one of my teammates , justin he said he thinks Presta valves are stupid .
JoshWhy .
DaneUh , because one , it restricts how much sealant you can put in . Uh two , you gotta use .
JoshIt restricts how much sealant or how hard . It doesn't restrict how much it restricts how hard it is to put in the sealant . Yeah so there's a smaller valve that's going through right .
DaneSo there's , uh , the stands makes a race day sealant .
JoshOkay .
DaneIt's got huge chunks in it . Oh , no , shit , yeah , and uh , it's it's . You know , you'd think it was race days . For some reason it would be like faster but it's not , it's really just more secure . It's meant to clog bigger holes and uh , and they're big chunks so they don't go in .
JoshAnd even no stands made that .
DaneYeah , yeah , a lot of places won't carry it because it's hard to get in . You got to pop the bead , and a lot of people especially if you're working at home you don't want to pop the bead because you need a compressor . What does it mean ? Pop the bead ? Is it's pushing the bead off of the rim so it's not locked in ? Yeah , so you can pull it off and then dump the sealant in the side of the tire . That is great for getting sealant in , and then you have no restriction on what you put in there . You can throw some flowers in there or whatever you want to do yeah , Glitter whatever .
DaneBut in most cases you need to blast the tire with air pressure to pop it back in , so that requires like one of three things right .
JoshYou said you said air compressor air compressor they have pumps now that have chambers that do high volume . They dump a munch and then CO2 . What I did for years is just CO2 cartridges right .
DaneYeah , and when you're at home it's a it's a hassle , and so in most cases when you're at home you can pull the valve core out of a tubeless valve and inject sealant right into the valve and so . But it gets clogged from time to time and it's a little bit of a hassle . So his point was why are we doing that ? Why don't we just use Schrader ? You know you pull the core out of a Schrader , you got a much bigger hole . You know we put for kids bikes and and townie bikes . We put in this stuff called slime which is much thicker , it's got bigger particles and it won't go into Presto valves .
JoshInteresting . I've never run into that before . Yeah .
DaneYeah , and it's not a tubeless system , it's a . It's one of the original sealants .
JoshYeah , slime went into like tubes initially for little kid bikes , exactly .
DaneYeah , and it works great . It's especially around here . We have these little thorns called goat heads which are everywhere . They'll puncture a tube immediately . Like we'll have a test ride in the parking lot and somebody will punch , puncture a tube . So the slime won't go into Presto , that hole is too restrictive , it'll go into Schrader , just Schrader . And his point is hey , you know why don't ?
Joshyou know what the history ? I don't Do you know what the history of a Presto valve is , so I don't know why they were I think originally it was Schrader valves , because that's what what like car tires . Well , yeah because bikes came out before . It's hard so .
DaneI don't know the like , I can't read you the definition or you know the history out of Wikipedia or whatever . I know that in Europe um Presto valves were developed and , and and . Often when you have things develop in different areas , they develop differently . You know Um , but the reason they keep going is they're very efficient and they're work great with hand pumps . So back in the eighties and such , when you're riding and you're pumping up your tires , uh , you can use a hand pump . Silica , those long or um or uh . Zephyl Yep , it was a big uh brand .
JoshYeah , they uh so you're talking about the small , like frame side pumps , the ones that you would like mount on your bike . So real , small , real small pumps .
DaneSo the mechanism of the pump just needs to have a an outer seal go around there . There's nothing that has to plunge uh and hold a spring open . Okay , and when you take a Presto valve and you unscrew that little nut at the top , you can let air in and out by pushing it down , but the air pressure is what shuts it . There's no spring . So when you put air in it , you push air against that valve and it pushes right past it and goes in and then it doesn't want to , it shuts it when it wants to come out .
DaneSo it's a really efficient valve and that's really , I think , the reason it was so popular and took over , especially on high end bikes , and it tended to work a lot better with simpler pumps that were on your bikes , you know , and you don't have to have that little mechanism , that little plunger inside that opens the valve and keeps it open .
JoshSo for not knowing for sure , that sure sound like a really logical explanation . Yes and if you're , if you're listening and you know , and Dane's wrong . Please let us know .
Bicycle Valve and Brake Setup Discussion
DaneThere's this thing called a Dunlap valve , which is totally different .
JoshWhat the fuck is that ? I never even heard of that .
DaneCrazy and I can't even . It's similar . It's like if you took both of them and they had a love child . That's a Dunlap valve Okay .
JoshSo if a Schrader and a Presta had a love child , had a love child Okay .
DaneAnd so you'll see those in Europe , and we see them every once in a while . Somebody will come over and they'll have the tubes in their bikes that have Dunlap valves . They're really goofy .
JoshCan they work with like a normal pump . Like what do you use , the Presta or the Schrader side ?
DaneI like , truthfully , don't have see . I think you put a Presta adapter and you can make them work . Okay , but I am really low experience on those . I've run into them and just been frustrated and I just take them out and put a regular tube in .
JoshSorry man , yeah , you have a different day , yeah .
DaneAnd it happens every once in a while . It's that same guy who's got his rear brake on the left . And then I go take a test ride and flip over in the parking lot . It's just different and you would get used to it . What do ?
Joshthey do in Canada , because when we lived in England , so Lacey and I lived in England . That's when we first started about Mikey . Yeah , and the first bikes we bought was , you know , rear brake on the left , rear brake on the left . And I went over the handlebars . We've been like five minutes around that bike . And then we quickly said screw this , we're going to shift , you know , switch the cables , Exactly .
DaneI don't know . You know , I've ridden at Whistler . Yeah , so I've ridden in Canada . I believe they have them the way that we have them , but I honestly don't know , because I didn't ride everybody else's bike .
JoshI've also heard that a lot of guys , even Americans , that are Moto guys because motorcycles are the other way . But you go back and you have gone back and forth between motorcycles and bikes . Yes , yes , so is that a hard thing to do .
DaneWell , I had a bad lesson . I'll tell you this bad lesson . So back , I used to run a team called no Brakes .
JoshWe raced all over the mountain bike team .
DaneYeah , downhill , downhill . And we raced all over the country and we had a couple guys who were really into reading articles and magazines and in the magazine it was like , hey , why don't you train on a motorcycle ? And we called it desensitization training , so you'd be going down . No , seriously , yeah , it is no , you laugh , but it's true .
JoshI can't even envision what the punchline is here , but go ahead , no punchline .
DaneYou're going through a forest on a dirt road and you're hitting stuff at such speeds and big stuff that you start to forget that you need to swerve around it . And that's what you need on a downhill bike you have to get your brain trained to just go over stuff .
JoshLike how fast do you go on a downhill ?
Danebike you can hit easily 30 , 40 miles .
JoshOkay . So if you're , if you're training at 60 or 70 miles an hour in rougher stuff , then 30 miles an hour doesn't feel as bad .
DaneIt desensitizes you so yeah , and so so they . I thought that was like a point thing . I didn't know where you're going . No , it literally yeah , but no , we called it that . We , you know , we would actually train that way . We would go to stairs and ride downstairs on motorcycles no , this is on bicycles , but we called that desensitized also . We would basically do these huge stairs , ride down them and you're riding on the top of the stairs and going fast at a steep descent and it's narrow and it's tight and it just gets you used to that kind of motion and understanding that you don't have to have a smooth terrain .
JoshWhat's the best staircase in Tucson ? Oh God , we have to be down the U of a . Yeah , yeah , maybe we shouldn't talk about it . I would never ride this . No , no , but I , but yeah , so I would never . Just by looking at it , you're not . Yeah , you know yeah , I would .
DaneBut if I did , yeah , if someone were to and if you , if I were to name it which you know I would probably name it stairway to heaven .
JoshI'm going to have to insert a clip of like the lights up one . Right now I don't have it on call .
DaneAnd in no way are we condoning that anyone goes down and name stairs yes , but . But there are stairs that you can do , that they'll have landings in between two sets and you can gap them , and so you can .
JoshYou can pull up from the top of one set , of one set the whole staircase , and then you land on the on the stairs . Yeah , just like you're doing drop , you're gonna have to tell me where is this day , where is there , I'll show you .
DaneOkay , that way nobody knows . Yeah , but but that training was desensitization . It would basically train you and then when you you went out to a trail , you would look at the trail different . You would look at that trail , that descent , and that , that stack of rocks , yeah , and you would see the tops of the rocks that you could just ride down and and your brain would be okay with it . So back to the original . Why I never flip my brakes was we had some teammates that decided this is , they ride motorcycles and they're going to do that . They're , they're riding motorcycles all the time .
JoshSo why not set your bike up like your motorcycle ?
Danemuscle memory is the same , exactly , and one of the guys , dave , great guy , one of the best guys I've ever met . I wish I still knew him . He's up in Phoenix , but we lost contact years ago . Dave get hold of us . Oh , I can't even remember his last name . I feel bad .
JoshBut he's an awesome guy .
DaneWe were racing at Moab and in a very short period of time Moab had a chairlift that went up to one of the bluffs .
JoshReally yeah , it's awesome , it was awesome .
DaneYeah , it was great . It was a short , short period .
JoshJust just for bikes .
DaneThey didn't do , I know , for scenic , for scenic and then they they made it so that you could take bikes and it's take you up onto the bluff above Moab and up to , I think it's Moab rim trail is what it's called . Okay , and we raced down Moab rim trail and this is an organized race , yeah .
DaneYeah , yeah , it was a race in Moab and I can't tell you what year , because then I have to figure out how old I am and I don't like to do that , but it was a long time ago . Yeah , and we would race down that and in in this race there was a drop . That was probably a two or three foot drop to flat but to slick rock and it was like hitting concrete , yeah , and it was a speed drop .
DaneYou're coming in pretty fast and Dave hit that drop , panicked and hit his brakes , flipped over and broke his neck and sounds awful .
JoshI mean I mean broken neck can mean a lot of things . Yes , he's just like recoverable one Did he walk and everything Yep .
DaneYeah , he was flown to St George . That's the closest hospital .
JoshOkay , there's no . There's no hospital in the lab .
DaneThere probably is , but maybe not for that . Okay , and this was a while ago , so it was probably very small at that time because it wasn't even Moab's blown up since .
JoshYeah .
DaneIt wasn't known back in the days was it is not nearly as much , and so he had to wear a halo for a year and probably explained to our listeners what a halo is .
DaneYeah , and so my lesson was hey , you know what happened is his muscle memory , you know , took over , it didn't the mountain bike , muscle mountain bike , and he had switched his brakes Exactly . And so we have customers that come over from Europe and we'll switch their brakes for them on their new bikes because the exact same reason , except they're used to what they know . Yeah , rear on the left and so . So , yeah , swap and brakes . How do we get on this ? I ?
Joshdon't know , dude , this is what happens .
DaneYeah , we have that's so funny because we were talking about Presta , then we went to Dunlap , then we went to .
JoshEurope .
DaneThen we went to your brakes from the wrong side . But these are all stupid things , okay , but I want to state Okay , so so right , there is a stupid thing that's maybe not even on our list is flipping your your levers ? Yeah , you know , if you're going to do it , at least think about it . You know , and all these stupid things . I got to put a disclaimer out . We're going to say that these things are stupid and somebody's going to be like , well , I do that and I'm not stupid and you aren't .
JoshYou know , we're , we're just no , no , I think they are Well no , no seriously somebody .
DaneThis is going to work to each his own .
JoshYeah , these are all opinions . Yeah , but while we're on , like Presta , yeah , okay , let's . Let's stick with that theme . Okay , because I've got one that I want to talk about and I think it might be controversial . Okay , all right . So I got a new gravel bike , light speed . Yep , I'm a Shimano guy . Yep , we're going to maybe argue about that later . That's okay , I'm a Shimano guy .
DaneThat's okay .
JoshEverybody has to be . Yeah , everyone's got got some some kind of kink , but Shimano is my thing . I'm a Shimano guy . I'm sold . Lacey's got Shram on everything she rides . I ride Shimano and everything I ride . But um , shimano wheels tubeless and the doesn't require rim tape because there's no freaking holes in the rims .
JoshIn the rims you know what I'm talking about is is with rim tape . Typically what you're closing is the holes that leads down to the spokes . You have access to the spoke from the top , Yep . Yeah , I believe all tubeless rims should have no holes . Yes , and that way require no rim tape and significantly decreasing the number . It increases your weight a fraction but significantly decreases the amount of flats that you get , because I cannot tell you how many times I've dealt with flats because that stupid rim tape has ripped a little tiny bit on one of those holes .
DaneYep , or the the sealant just just makes a termite trail to a hole . Yeah , yeah , Straight down there .
JoshYep . So like , get rid of the freaking holes . Yeah , there's got to be a better way where you can deal with the nipple management . That's a good concept , nipple management .
DaneI would like a shirt . Nipple manager . Can I be a nipple manager ? Because I'm down with that . Anybody out there that makes shirts you can send that .
JoshYeah , nipple manager , nipple management one on one or something . Size XL carat theme . This is bicycle wheel nipples , which is what attaches to your spoke and that's what actually screws your spoke into the top . You know the round part of your rim . I believe that there should be no holes . Tell me why I'm wrong .
DaneYou're not . Yes , I totally agree . Yes , I can tell you why it doesn't happen .
JoshBecause it's so much easier to access the nipple from the top . Exactly , yeah it's manufacturing .
DaneIt really is . I don't know if there's a patent issue . So Mavic is the ones that pioneered this .
JoshI have seen that on Mavic wheels , even before tubeless .
DaneYes , before tubeless existed , they were doing this and what they call for strength and rigidity . Yeah , I want to say that their technology they called it for technology they would take a rim and they would take a hot poker or some device and they would melt the hole in the rim into the cavity , into where the where the spoke's going to go , yep , and it would push the aluminum in and then they would thread that . That's cool , it's really cool , really cool how they did it .
JoshThat's even better because they don't have to worry about the nipple . You know , I want to take this quick sidebar . Okay , yeah , I think probably about 10 years old I started thinking about nipple management , and now I'm 48 and I'm still spending a significant amount of time thinking about nipple management .
DaneHow's ?
Joshyour T level . It's up since I've lost 50 pounds . I'll have you know . T is testosterone , yeah .
DaneIf you ever lose the desire for nipple management .
JoshThere's something wrong . You may want to see your doctor .
DaneI have a friend who does men's health . I'll refer you .
JoshYeah , that's good . That's Chris . He's amazing , awesome . Okay , so you agree with me on that .
DaneYeah , so
Tubeless Tire Technology and Aviation Activity
Dane, yeah . So a Mavic came out with that , and not necessarily for tubeless at first , but it worked great . And they came out with what's called a UST system and they actually developed the tire rim interface , which was UST universal . I don't know , it's French , I don't know it's something universal .
DaneI don't know what the S is , but basically they developed a standard for the universal standard tubeless . I don't know but the standard for the bead profile to lock into the bead of the rim , and it allowed for a tight interface . And then at that time UST qualified tires had a coating of butyl lining butyl rubber . That's the rubber that they use for tubes , right ? So most mountain bike tires won't hold air by themselves . They're too porous . They have a usually some sort of casing that's made out of cotton or whatever , whatever they make it out of , and then they layer it with with rubber . But it's not a , it's not the same rubber that holds air , it's not the same molecular structure and the butyl is tighter and it holds air better . And so these UST tires would be coated on the inside . So the first tubeless did not need a sealant . They would lock into place and they would hold air without sealant . And it was amazing , you know , it was great .
JoshBut you had . Okay , so let me make sure I understand what you're telling me here . Yeah , are you telling me that my tires , without sealant and no punctures , would not hold air ?
DaneNo , they won't Well , so you have to qualify . If they're UST , they would Are they still making UST they ? Yeah , I can . I think you can maybe find them . I mean , I've got some on the shelf but they're 10 years old . It's just in my garage .
JoshIs Mavic still around ?
DaneI haven't seen anything in Europe and I think they're coming back to the US , but they've been struggling and I used to have all kinds of Mavic stuff , and I don't think . I've got a Mavic part in my garage right now at all when it , when a company's based overseas , if they usually have an intermediary , a distributor of some sort , yeah , if that distributor can't , it doesn't work out . Doesn't work out , they may pull out for a little while . There's a brand that I love called La Pierre . They're out of France .
JoshYep , I'm very familiar with their bikes love their bikes . We carried them for a lot of cross country bikes . I don't think , well , I guess . Well , there's some bad ass down there was coming out of France , holy shit , oh yeah . Yeah , they got us figured out .
DaneIt's nasty terrain over there . And and that La Pierre partnered with a company in the US . They sold them for a few years and that partner in the US just didn't didn't live up . They argued about who didn't do a good job and then La Pierre pulled out . So La Pierre is still selling bikes , but you can't find them in the US , you can find them in Canada .
JoshI got to pause to say kudos to our boys . Do you hear the the jets going over ?
Danethe forehead yeah , you know what those are .
JoshYeah , those are F 16s . Nice , they're F 16s from the Davis Mothan . We have a . No , they're actually not from Davis Mothan , they're from Tucson International Air Base . We have an Air National Guard base there . It is actually an international training center , wow , and we bring in pilots from all over the world that the countries that have purchased F 16s and we train them here in Tucson . Very unusual for them to hit afterburners this far .
DaneYeah .
JoshSo there's something weird going on . Yeah , which is also weird , because you and I saw a Chinook helicopter and a rescue helicopter .
DaneSo yeah , somebody's hopefully nothing bad .
JoshWell , I don't think you'd send F 16s out of someone's hurt , but something weird's going on with all these birds flying over .
DaneI know we were in Reddington Pass , which is on the flight path , and , yeah , northeast , I think it was during the air show .
JoshOh yeah , that's cool .
DaneThey were coming out over us . Yeah , you know , and , and they were just lighten up . They were lightened up for an air show , but do ?
Joshwe have an air , we don't have an air show coming out , do we ? I don't think so , if that's , if that is that could be , but they wouldn't be doing that night though , because usually those air shows are doing the day . Anyway , sorry , super , super big Tucson has got the boneyard here . Another reason to come here is like all of the mothballed , and that's that's a bad word , but all of the aircraft storage storage that the . United States wants to kind of put in storage is here and there's just like thousands and thousands of planes .
DaneIt's amazing . It's amazing Transformers . You'll see it in a bunch of movies .
JoshYeah , the Tucson boneyard is super cool .
DaneIt's fun to drive by and just look my kids just love it . So , okay
Tubeless Tape and Wheel Building Controversy
Dane, all right . So USD we talked about that .
JoshWe talked about Mavic Mavic . If you're looking for someone to help you in the United States , please feel free to reach out Moncaga gmailcom . We'd be happy to help you .
DaneAnd you were saying it's dumb that they have holes in the rims .
JoshI agree , I totally agree .
DaneSo now Trek had a cool system where . So I know why . It is because manufacturing and because Mavic does have a patent on that for technology . I don't know if it's still out there , because I think Fulcrum is a company who makes something similar .
JoshYeah , but I got that . I'm talking about Shimano wheels out there , so Shimano Road or their gravel wheels . Yeah they have no holes .
DaneYeah , I got to look at them . Yeah , and once I see them I can tell you how they're done . Some bikes they have brass nipples and you actually have to use a magnet or string to get the nipple through the rim into the hole . Yes , I've seen that on video on part tools . So there's another reason mechanics would revolt and leave .
JoshNow it's brass magnetic .
DaneI don't know if it's what's got to be . I know they're using magnets .
JoshOkay , so it would have to be . Whatever the nipple is , would have to be magnetic . Yeah , the magnetic process works .
DaneI may be the chrome plating on the brass , I'm not sure so , but it works . And then you have to use string . There's all kinds of different things that that people have to use . Yeah , when they do that . And so if they don't have a an easy way to build it , right it's going to drive the cost up . If they don't have an easy way to build it , then it's going to drive the maintenance up , but I got to imagine that , drilling 32 holes in a thin piece of aluminum is more expensive .
JoshNo way , then , not drilling 32 holes Robots ? All I have to say is come on Well , that robot costs a million bucks .
DaneSo , first of all , have you ever seen a wheel building robot like a machine ? I have . They're amazing , yeah , like , and they just go do everything and the thing is already pinned and machined . Yep , and that thing comes around and just drills the holes , and it's drilling them both , so it drills the both holes at the same time , so it's like a two step bit .
JoshI got you , so it may be harder to drill from like one versus drilling all the way through . Now you got to drill halfway through and maybe that's harder to manage .
DaneOkay , whatever , I'm standing by my recommendation . And you did supply chain . You know how much that can drive the cost .
JoshI do , I do , I do Okay , whatever cost . But , yeah , less flats , that's what I want . Yes , no holes .
DaneSo so I would say , tubeless tape matters . You know , that's another thing . Yeah , I have my list there .
JoshYes , every goddamn tape I try Yep , doesn't matter what it is . That shit is not sticky enough .
DaneNo so .
JoshI've just gone to using gorilla tape , so everything , and it is light years better Tell me I'm wrong .
DaneYou are going to piss off so many people .
JoshI don't mean to piss you off , I'm just using what works . I've tried everything .
DaneHere's my philosophy on gorilla , because this is a huge controversy because bike mechanics will just have a con nip . When you take gorilla off it usually leaves just a bunch of gunk and it's really hard to get off . And when you're paying somebody to do that , it's hard for a mechanic to just double or triple the cost of you . You get in that taped just because you use gorilla . So I have a philosophy , so we do what we call at the shop ghetto tubeless .
DaneOkay yeah it's not meant to be derogatory , it's . It's basically a workaround for when a tire and a tube and a rim are not tubeless compatible .
JoshIs this when you cut the tube and don't know ?
Danethat that that would be qualified . Ours is using gorilla , and so if you have a rim that's not tubeless ready , in most cases the bead seats are too low , they don't hold the tire tight enough and there's too much slop and the tire can blow off . And so gorilla actually does a great job , but one adhering . But it also is thicker and it'll build up that and it'll get the tire to fit with a better tolerance and work much better . Now my philosophy is if you've done that , you're pretty much going to do gorilla forever . Yes , I'm not going to clean it , but I can put another piece of gorilla on there . You know , I'll pull it off , but it'll have gunk . You know , and I've had mechanics in the shop where they get super anal about taking every piece off of adhesive , whatever they can find off of that rim , before they put new tape on . You know , and in most cases that's what you want to do .
JoshYou want to create is if you using the for sure , if you're using the crappy no stick tape , you got to do it Now the no stick tape does that on purpose , so it doesn't leave adhesive .
DaneSo once you go to gorilla you're going to just stay there , you know .
JoshI gotta tell you , man , I don't have a bike shop and I haven't done hundreds of wheels , but I've done . Maybe I've done a hundred wheels .
DaneYeah .
JoshI've never had any problem with gunk on my tire , pulling the grill off , although I will tell you once you go gorilla , you really don't have to pull it off that much . No , that's almost like the life of the wheel , and let's one tape .
DaneLet's qualify that . We're talking about waterproof gorilla , not duct tape , not electrical tape . Yeah , I'm talking about one inch .
JoshThat's what I use is one inch gorilla tape , black gorilla tape , just a normal one inch gorilla tape . It's like three bucks for like 50 wheels .
DaneYeah , exactly , it works . It works fine . There's there's nothing wrong with that , and if you're good with it , you're good with it , and the controversy really is the attitude that some , some mechanics , have and they get a little snooty when you bring gorilla , and so I won't bring any .
JoshSo if you need those bikes out , they're going to be tape with gorilla .
DaneMy mechanics don't care , you know . Just don't expect them to pull every piece of adhesive off . They're going to just put gorilla back on .
JoshWhy do I care ? Yeah , exactly , so probably won't even have to pull it off .
DaneFrankly , I mean , at the shop we test tons and tons of , so what's the best tape out there so far ? So so there's two different types of finishes on rims . There's a shot peen finish . That's the worst and it's got this bumpy surface it's pretty hard to adhere anything to . And the stands tape is awful and and I love stands products they do a great job .
DaneI don't like their tape but there's just , the adhesive isn't very thick because they don't want to leave it on there , and the tape is pretty rigid . It's almost a plastic and it there's . It has its place . But with those shot peens sometimes you have to go sand them and again in the shop environment versus your house . We're looking at time and time is money ?
JoshYeah , every five minutes is money . Is time wasted on a task ?
DaneAnd if you've got to sit there and sand your rims down to get the tape to stick . That's not just not a gorilla Well so so far , one of my favorites is I . We had switched to DT Swiss and I do Swiss tape ?
JoshYep , DT Swiss tape . I don't think I've ever tried DT Swiss tape works really good or adhesive a little bit better .
DaneOkay , does better .
JoshIs it more ?
Danepliable than the stand stuff A little bit . So we're talking small increments .
JoshIs it the pink ? What color ? No ?
Daneno , no , that's my favorite right now Muck off , yeah , and here's why it's clear . And so the biggest you can see , yep , the biggest problem that I see with tubeless tape is exactly why you have an issue with it . It fails . And with stands and with DT and with most of them where you can't see through them , you don't know it fails until you pulled it off . Yeah , so if you're have a customer who comes in and they're they're just their tires going low all the time and they're they're suffering with you know just why is this always going flat ? Yeah , it's either going to be the tire has a puncture that's not sealing , or it's going to be the tape . In most cases , and on those products where you can't see through them , you have to pull it off to check and then it's gone . So you're gonna put new tape on . That's all there is to it .
JoshIt's probably worth mentioning too that you're gonna there's a weight penalty with grill tape . Yes , it's a little bit heavier I've never measured it , but it's definitely a little bit heavier than any of the other products I've tried .
DaneYeah , absolutely , it's just got a ton of adhesive and that's rolling weight , which is the worst kind of weight to add to your bike , yeah , and the people that don't like it have good reasons , and if you were to do it right , you would have a proper tire , proper rim , proper tape . You shouldn't need gorilla . But what happens is people get frustrated , and that's what happens .
JoshI mean , that's how I ended up on it . I mean literally . I honestly think how I ended up on it was I had a roll of stands . And no offense to the states guys , I love their many of their products . I've run their wheels , I've run their sealant and everything .
DaneIt's good stuff . It's hard to make one product that works with everything , and Stan's philosophy from the beginning was we can make any tire and rim combo work , and at first , though , he also had strips .
JoshYeah , I remember that there was rubber and you had to like strip them . And those worked okay .
DaneThey actually worked better than most people realize because they took up that extra room that I was talking about .
JoshOh yeah , I never thought about the wheel sealing to the Exactly .
DaneAnd so those strips did pretty well . But then they would deform , so you'd have to put new ones in , so you'd pull them out and they'd be all crooked . They wouldn't seal right .
JoshOh .
DaneJesus , and so you'd have to put a new one and it got expensive . And then Stan's realized they were the ones that pioneered this . They raised that bead and they tightened up the tolerance so the tire can't just can't move around very much . And then now a thin piece of tape works . So now muck off , because you can see through it .
DaneI can look at the tape and see if the sealant has started to travel up the seam or found a way into the holes and I can look at it and go , yep , it's failed , Whereas with Stan's I pull it off and I look at the back of the tape and I can see it's wet and I'm like , okay , it's failed . But if it didn't fail and it was the tire , you're getting new tape anyway . So I do like the clear , so okay . Sorry , dude , that's okay , that's okay , we got a big list .
JoshWell , we don't have to get to the whole list .
DaneNo , but there's lots of stupid stuff .
JoshThere's lots of stupid shit .
DaneWe can do a couple episodes on stupid stuff Okay so we covered this whole section right here .
JoshYeah , we covered all the . Did we cover all the tire and rim stuff ?
DaneFor the most part , I got another tire thing . Yeah , okay , all right .
JoshSo there's a new channel I'm watching . I just discovered it's been out for a while . It's called Sid Fixes Bikes . Okay , it's on YouTube , okay .
DaneGreat channel . Is this Sid Vicious ? No , no , no , it's not Sid Vicious . I do like Sid Vicious . This is a lady .
JoshAll right , SYD , Sydney , I think , is her name . I just guessed at that . Maybe it's not Sydney , but Sid Fixes Bikes and it's Sid and Mackie . Mackie is her boyfriend or fiance or husband or something . He is a . It appears he's like an established bike mechanic . Okay , they're both very , very accomplished mountain bikers . I'm not quite sure if they're pros or what , but they , I think maybe they are pros . They ride , maybe she rides for Niner or something . She's always riding a Niner bike .
JoshAnyways she gets hurt and decides she doesn't know how to work on her bike Okay , besides , she's gonna learn how to work on her bike , okay . So the whole concept of the videos is it's Mackie filming and Sid doing all the maintenance and Mackie's kind of given her like coaching and helping her along and teaching her while she's doing it . Okay .
DaneSo he's not just letting her fumble through ? No , no .
JoshSo she's teaching us and he's teaching her , and it's all in like a polite , not a demeaning way , or ?
Joshanything like that it's super entertaining and the type of maintenance they do is like deep shit . It's more than you would get on most of the channels . So , like , how do you take apart a Shimano derailleur and adjust the clutch ? Okay , so you replace the bearings in a hub ? Okay . So it's kind of like next level . I mean , they have some other stuff too , but it's kind of like next level , like mechanics , right , stuff that I don't normally see or don't normally do .
Choosing the Right Bike Tires
JoshSo I'm enjoying it a lot and I've totally lost my train of thought . What the fuck were we doing ?
DaneOh yeah , okay , here's what it was . Here's what it is .
JoshWhy the hell do I have to watch a one hour video from Sid Fix's bikes which is a great video , by the way . They're sponsored by Maxis on choosing the right , goddamn tire .
DaneOh God .
JoshLike between the 700 different types of casing , the 700 different types of compounds . Tread pattern , you know the size of the tire Jesus Christ . Like it's so complicated , I need like a , I need to doctor it in like we're talking about stupid stuff in bikes . Yes , it's so complicated I'm I don't even know . I have like analysis , paralysis .
DaneThis is one that's on my list . Okay , it's not on my list , but it's on my list now . Stupid stuff in bikes YouTube advice on tires . I feel like it's stupid , and here's why I have a guy who comes into the shop and he goes Dane , I want to . I want a forecaster . This is a Maxis tire . Yeah , I want to forecast . I'm like we've never carried a forecaster . It's a . It's a deep loam tread . You know it's . It's made for loam . It's a almost a mud tire .
JoshWhat , yeah , are we talking about the same thing ?
DaneYeah , yeah , okay , so so .
JoshEven with their new design that made it more like a trail tire .
DaneI haven't . I haven't carried them in a while because it's not been a regionally popular tire . Okay , and that's my point , I'm starting to see a lot more of them . This is my point . A guy comes in , asked me for something that some guy on YouTube told him that he should get .
JoshYeah .
DaneAnd that guy just follows his advice like it's gospel . Yeah , and that's stupid , because if you really want to know what to ride , talk to the people that ride .
JoshBecause a forecaster might be great in the PNW but it's not great in Tucson , Arizona , Exactly .
DaneI don't know if that's the case , everybody's going to have an opinion , but if you're talking to the guys on the trail that you ride , they're going to have a better idea of what tires are are going to work well on that , yeah , and you're going to get a bend or consensus than some guy who lives in Washington state .
JoshOkay , so make sure that the advice you're getting is applicable to the area that you're at . But in defense of Sid and Mackie with Sid Fix's bikes and this is not an advertisement for them I just found the channel and I'm like enthralled by it , but they don't recommend any specific tire . They're just kind of explaining to you how , what all the different compounds are , what all the different casings are , what all the different sizes are , what all the different tread patterns are , so that you can look at where you ride and make the best decision and they do that in the manufacturing .
DaneThey'll have a chart .
JoshYes .
DaneAnd it's analysis paralysis . You get so much info and it's hard to discern . That's why the advice coming from somebody that you're riding with on the same trail has a value that's higher . Your local bike shop .
JoshLBS yes .
DaneYour local bike shop . Those guys ride . If they don't ride , like why they should ride ? Why would you work in a bike shop and make peanuts if you don't ride a bike ? You better be riding a bike if you're working on a bike .
JoshThat's another stupid thing in the bike industry is why bike shop guys don't make more money .
DaneIt's tough , but I would say that all of those different things allow for people to really put the right tire on their bike for the conditions and the manufacturers usually . So I just talked to one of our manufacturers and they were telling us , basically they're slimming down their line , they're getting rid of a lot of sizes , so like a 2 , 3 , 5 is going away and they're making a 2 , 4 . So like what the hell's the difference between 2 , 3 , 5 and 2 , 4 ? Exactly , and their point is why do we have both ? And they had both , and so they're getting rid of some of those .
JoshSo that's , helping .
DaneYeah , they're just slimming down what we call the SKUs .
DaneSo in the shop we have SKUs or bar codes . They're like your product number and they're slimming down the SKUs , and I think so . For instance , on a downhill casing you've got reinforcement on the side . You've usually got a stiffer sidewall so that it doesn't pinch flat as easy , and then in most cases you have a softer compound for grip . But you may not want that on hard pack , for instance , if you're in wet conditions on mud , we used to run . Intense used to be one of our sponsors for our team , intense tire systems . I don't even know if they're still around .
JoshI don't think I've seen Intense tire in 10 years .
DaneThey were one of the first ones to use that stealth rubber , that sticky rubber , on tires and we would run that in wet conditions and it was amazing . It would grip like crazy . Every race we had to have new tires Because it wore out really quick . It would mushroom Like the knobs , would actually flatten out and look like little mushrooms because it was so soft . After one ride , after a weekend , a race weekend After a weekend . And so we would have piles of tires that we would just give away .
JoshYeah , that's $75 a pop , that's a pretty expensive weekend , yeah .
DaneAnd now , those tires for our downhill bikes were four ply wire bead . We had to use metal tire levers to put them on . We're talking over 10 years ago . Back in the day , old school Does anyone have wire beads anymore ?
JoshI mean besides really inexpensive bikes .
DaneYeah , not really . I mean every once in a while you'll see a bike brand that does wire because of weight or cost . Most pros will use foldables , more or less , I think , just because the bead is more accurate .
JoshYeah , and if you're wondering if you have a wire bead or not , if you bought your tire and it was folded , it's not a wire bead .
DaneExactly , it's got some sort of Kevlar type bead .
DaneAnd then . So Maxis , for instance , is a good example . They have an EXO sidewall , which is a protected sidewall . Around here it's so jutting and volcanic , it's really sharp , and so we have to be careful of the sidewalls . They came out with an EXO plus , yeah , and so I have a lot of customers that come in for that and we've kind of switched to move towards that , getting better results out of that Exactly , and in fact in our shop we've made a decision Instead of carrying the non-protected sidewalls , we don't even carry them , and so that's a regional thing . So if you go on Amazon and you get a tire and it has no protected sidewall , and then you come out to Tucson , arizona , where it's volcanic , sharp rock , You're going to slash a tire .
DaneYou're going to slash your tire , but the shops regionally are not going to carry that because they're not going to get good results .
JoshWell damn you , dane , for being logical and reasonable . I'm pissed because there's too many options . It's so hard for people to figure out . I mean I had to watch it . I mean I understand it now and I'm deep into the bike nerdiness . It took me an hour of my time to just be able to go and figure out what tire I need .
DaneSo I'm in the industry and I still have that . I still get frustrated .
JoshSo do you think it's stupid too ?
Danethen I do . And here's the weird thing is , you'll always have that guy that's riding the forecaster on hard pack and doing great . You know what I mean . Yeah , to each his own , they'll be out there , you know .
JoshTo each his own .
DaneThere's nothing wrong with that , but when he complains that he can't find it in a shop , it's probably because that's not a regionally appropriate tire .
JoshYou have not sold me yet that the forecaster is a bad tire for Tucson .
DaneI you know if they have changed it . That's possible . Have you tried it ?
JoshNo , I think we're going to have to put some forecasters on . Yeah , go try it , I'll do it . Let's do it , you just get me the tires .
DaneI'll get you the tires .
JoshI told you Don't you own a bike shop ? Why do I got to get you the tires ? I do .
DaneWell , we talked tonight about a set of tires that I got from a company we won't talk about , and they were awful for me . Now they made my bike feel so slow unless I was in a gravity situation , and then they weren't really anything stellar . The interesting story is that Lacey ?
Joshso I came to your shop and I got a Barzo and a . What's the back one ? Did you get a ?
DaneOh , a Mezcal .
JoshMezcal and a Barzo for Lacey's cross country bike Hardback .
DaneTucson Desert .
JoshAnd your shop manager was like why you put a Barzo ?
Daneon the front . No one does that with .
JoshThe hell is no one in Tucson does Like Lacey does , so now you have another person , but she originally sent me to get forecasters for her cross country bike .
DaneYeah , and we talked about the Barzo , right , and what did I say is going to happen to that tire ? I can't remember , the little knobs in the middle are going to wear out super fast .
JoshOh yeah , Hell yeah , Dude , I'm replacing those damn tires every two months .
DaneAnd what did Lacey say , why she likes that tire ?
JoshIt is so fast .
DaneNo , oh , because the sidewalls , the corners , the side lugs Yep exactly , and when you look at the tire you can see why she likes it .
JoshOK .
DaneNow the idea if she came in for advice we would take that input . I want a fast tire that corners . Great , we would find a tire that has a little bit closer knobs together in the middle , in the middle , in the middle for fast Yep , and it'll last longer , and then we'll focus on those side knobs , staying the same Yep and so and that's in the Vittoria line that would be in agarro .
JoshAgarro .
DaneNo , here's the only problem is because those little knobs on the Barzo are spread apart , there's less material on their lighter , and so then with the agarro you're going to have a little more weight . So there's always a drawback , and this is that analysis , paralysis you run into .
JoshI would not recommend that anyone kind of follow Lacey's lead . She lives her life kind of on the edge , so I would imagine that it's probably not the best tire , but she likes a little bit of that sketchiness in her life . That's why she married me . Yeah , and that's that tone , wow .
DaneSo so to touch on my comment about YouTube , like there's a lot of good advice , I use YouTube all the time in the shop .
JoshThere's also a lot of shit . Advice .
DaneThere's a lot of shit you have to , you have to use your head and you have to kind of go through things . I would say that you know , looking to your local bike shop to get some advice is is good as long as you have a good bike shop there are a shot . If you're going to a shop that's 90% of their business is BMX and you're buying mountain bike tires from them , you're you may not get the best advice .
JoshYeah , how can someone gauge ? You walk into , you're in a new town . You walk into a shop , yeah , like how can I look around and be like , yep , this is a place for me , or , oh shit , I probably should go somewhere else ?
DaneIt's funny , I went to Colorado Springs and I was by myself and I was going to do some riding and I wanted to know what's the shop to go to and I did searches you know , google searches and kind of you know . I walked into one shop . It's been there forever and the people were super nice . I don't know if in that shop they ride like I do , and but they were amazing . I bought a shirt , I bought a pine glass , I'm like it was a cool shop . They had a bike hanging in the shop . They had a story about the owner who wrote it every single day for I don't know umpteen million years . Right , and the bike was there and and they just had a lot of character and you could tell it's been around , yeah , and I saw the guys that ride like me . I walked into and nobody said a word to me and I couldn't get any help . It was jam packed with crap everywhere . It was unappealing to look at .
JoshRight .
DaneAnd I bet you those guys would have given me much better tire advice and that's frustrating . That's something I see in the bike industry .
JoshThat's just bad business .
DaneIt drives me nuts because I want those guys to help me , because they probably are going to give me good advice on where to go and what tires and pressure and like you know where I can ride , and but the , the bro culture , you know , was and and they weren't doing it on purpose , they weren't snubbing me on purpose , they were busy , shorthanded and it was a tight small space and they just , you know , we have this problem with mechanics , right ?
JoshYeah .
DaneOur mechanics are amazing and our mechanics are stuck out in front of everybody . They have to talk to people . We force them to . But in the bike industry , you see , often the mechanics are stuck in back because they're often not the most chatty people . They want to focus on their work , they don't want to get distracted and and sometimes when you have that individual dealing with customers , it's not the best customer service .
JoshWell , I got to dude , I got to give a shout out to your shop , so I went out on Friday . You were really , I think , on your way up to Las Vegas . Tyler was out getting lunch , so there was no like , no , no like the owners .
DaneOwners weren't in the shop .
JoshI walked in , they didn't recognize me , no problem , okay . Within like three seconds I was like what are you going to do with me ? What do you need ? And it was Carlos and he ran around . He didn't know exactly the answers . He went and saw Ben , ben told them and they and I had a bunch of weird , you know deep , kind of nerdy shit that I was looking to do , and they were super helpful . Like just on top of it , I felt really awesome . Then I was like hey , you know , I'm Josh , I'm with the team on the mountain , and they're like , oh shit , we didn't even realize that you know .
JoshSo like they didn't , so it was kind of like a I don't
Tire Sealants and Mechanics
Joshknow what they . They call that show where the boss comes in and like , looks at the undercover boss . It was a little bit like that , but they didn't know that , like I knew you , or that we had any relationship and they treated me awesome . Yes , so like kudos to your shop . They're the right thing when no one's there . That's integrity .
DaneWe can't figure out why that's so hard to do . You know like we do it all the time , you know , and I get , I had a pivot called me the other day and my pivot rep called me and goes Dan , I got to talk to you and I'm like okay , that's never a good call what , sit down what's wrong .
JoshYou know , did I not pay the bill , Like what's I mean ?
DaneI think I had that covered . I'm pretty sure I paid the bill I'm not sure what's going on . He goes we had a customer call in and I'm like , oh shit , you know what I'm like . Well , I don't , I had no problems . You know like what what he goes . This customer came in and bought two bikes from you and they said that you were the best shop they've ever been to .
JoshYou're like thanks for the setup and I was like , oh God .
DaneLike I just my whole body just relaxed , you know , and I was like , oh , that's I , they and I , and I told him you know , this is a friend of mine at Pivot .
JoshYeah .
DaneAnd I told him . I said that's awesome , but I got to tell you that I had nothing to do with it .
JoshWell , no , no , you set the tone for the shop as the leader .
DaneSo no , no , that's true . But your guys are doing the work but I wasn't involved in the sale and so that's even better . That makes you feel good . Yeah , because I wasn't even involved in that sale and the guys treated the guy , the customers , how I would treat them .
JoshYou know we're setting like a super high level of expectation for your future customers now , so you're going to have to live up to it .
DaneYou know and and and that's . Uh , we have a saying in the shop and we're so off subject .
JoshI'll tell you this . I'll tell you the same .
DaneUm , every mechanic has a bad day . Every person has a bad day . Every mechanic has a bad day . If you can count on your mechanic having a bad day , you need a new mechanic , and that's our philosophy . And that means that we do miss . We make mistakes .
JoshEveryone else .
DaneEverybody makes mistakes , it just happens . The best thing is when we make a mistake and the customer comes back and says , hey , this didn't work , or , you know , the creek came back , or whatever .
DaneYeah , Creeks or my um and we work with the customer and we are team , teammates with that customer and we figure it out together and they , they love that for one thing . And we love that because the customer that comes in and and goes , uh , this , there was a complaint , um , I think , oh , a tire got put on backwards . No , I've done that before . Yeah , I've done it .
JoshI've done rotation arrow . In fact never , that's another thing that pisses me off . The rotation arrow needs to be more visible on all but all tires . Why can't they make it big ?
DaneLike , why can't it be like color or something ? Yeah , jesus , like I , I , I gotta get magnifying glass to fit that is a stupid thing in books , yes , you know , the rotation not being obvious , you know , and this podcast has turned into stupid things about wheels .
JoshWe gotta move to the next one .
DaneBut but in this , in this instance , you know it's frustrating that a customer would have an experience with tires on backwards and then judge the shop on that . If it happens every single time , absolutely , um . But but I've had that issue In fact in the shop . We've told we we actually rib each other in the service area , we give each other crap Like we will randomly go hey , that tires on backwards Just to mess with someone .
JoshAnd it's just to mess with the mechanic . And it's not . And it's not .
DaneAnd it's to remind ourselves that it does happen and even when you've thought about it , sometimes it just happens and it's not . It's not a carelessness , it's more of a maybe a distractedness or unfocused yeah , but it's also kind of just sometimes happens .
JoshI've done it so many times and it's the most frustrating thing . You get the bike all put together , especially all stoked full sealant , full sealant , everything . And you look down , you're like God dammit .
DaneI did it again .
JoshAnd it's always the tire that's like super hard to get on the rim .
DaneSo you're like breaking your fingers trying to break the bead . It's , it's frustrating , and then and and in the shop again . Time is money . Uh , sealant costs money , so we got to pull it off . And how much are you spilling , you know ? We're not going to charge the customer . That's stupid . Uh , we're going to eat it , you know , but it's like huh , it was a dumb mistake you bought .
JoshYou buy your sealant in bulk out of medicine . We try . Yeah , Is is what's what's your shop , sealant Like what's your base .
DaneIs it stands or do you guys have ? We have three , three .
JoshUm . Is it dependent on the application or dependent on ?
DaneNo , no , I I feel like they're interchangeable and this is kind of something that's um , that's kind of a myth that you can't mix them . Uh , there are . I would say there's some sealants maybe on the market that you shouldn't mix with others , but we carry orange seal .
JoshOkay .
DaneUh , we carry stands , and we carry a brand that's made locally in Arizona called seal it .
JoshOkay .
DaneAnd um , and all three are great and we use them pretty interchangeably .
JoshOkay .
DaneUm , each one has advantages . Stands is like kind of universal and if we didn't carry it people would freak out , you know . Uh , so we carry it because it's a good sealant and you need to have it because it's kind of the poster child for tubeless Yep . Uh , orange seal came out and I feel like I've heard they've done a good job with their new . I feel like they do a better job , and that's my personal opinion . What are you running your bike ? Whatever's free , okay . If they send me samples , I'm running it .
JoshThat's right , you're running those tires from that company that will not be named . Yeah , I don't care .
DaneIn other words , I don't care . But here's the one reason that I like orange seal over if I was going to have something in my garage and not have all three to choose from , you choose orange seal , and , and there's only one reason . And and you need to know the reason , because if it doesn't apply to you , it's not an issue . But orange seal doesn't use the oils and so when it dries in your tire , it does not leave a oil glossy film . And if you get a sidewall cut and you want to repair that sidewall cut with with a , with a patch , with a patch , uh , the orange seal is your best bet and that's it . That's it . Other than that , I don't feel like so what about the local seal it ?
JoshWell , I don't know the story there . He's awesome . So , uh , is he two side Phoenix , phoenix , okay , yeah .
DaneSo it's a very . It's a latex base . They're all latex base . It's um . What he did was he took some of the combinations . So Stan's uses usually a fiber based uh particulates to clog Yep , and uh . Orange seal usually uses like a mica uh based Okay , and they're both latex and latex when it racks with air kind of hardened .
DaneSo you get the kind of a scab and that's , that's what causes your your hole to seal , okay , um , and the particulates stack up like platelets in your blood and they kind of clog it and allow it to dry . Um and so the um . We were talking earlier about slime , right ? Well , slime doesn't dry that fast and that's why it doesn't work as a tubeless , because it'll work in a tube , because it'll actually bridge between the tube and the tire and clog it , uh , with that pressure .
JoshSo it forms a seal between the tire , not necessarily sealing the hole in the tube itself . Yeah , yeah .
DaneIt's working a similar way , but it just doesn't react as fast .
JoshYou guys carry slime in the shop . Oh , yeah , yeah , we uh commuter bikes , kids bikes , you know so you don't put stands or any of those other ones in those other bikes .
DaneUm , so sometimes . So here's the key with stands in in most cases , stands tends to react with air and dry out , and so with sealant you have to usually refill it . Uh , like every but , but . But , you know , slime does not slime's like a two year shelf life .
JoshOh shit , yeah . And so how frequently should I be in in Tucson , the south desert south ? How frequently should I be refilling ?
DaneRight , you know so we actually have little dip sticks that you can put through the valve .
JoshYou can put your mouth core out Shit I never thought about that Do they sell them or do you guys make them ?
DaneSo orange seal is actually , who does them ? Okay , you can buy an orange seal , um , that has one in it and it has , like the , the tube to inject it into your thing and it'll come with the whole kit , and then you can buy the same container without that stuff for a little cheaper . But we actually sell the dip sticks , uh , by themselves .
JoshThank you for costing me more money .
DaneYeah , and , and they're , and they're they're nice because you can stick them in .
JoshAre they one and done , or are they ?
Danereuse . Oh , they're totally reusable . It's it you know , think of like a stir stick for Starbucks . It's kind of like that .
JoshI mean , could I just stick like a like , a like , a well , what they did , a chopstick down there , or something Probably uh .
DaneWhat they did , though , is they serrated it so that it kind of holds the sealant and it kind of gives you an idea . So , and it's just convenient . It's just a little plastic thing , uh , but it's a cool idea and so you can put that in and kind of see if you got sealant level in there . You can shake it and kind of get an idea . Sometimes you know , I shook my tire . Um , but for the most part I'd say every two to three months , and sometimes a little sooner .
JoshAnd what about , like if you're up in the North or somewhere where it's not quite as dry ?
Daneprobably , maybe go longer , I don't know , and that would be a great question for one of the LBS is , we'll get a hold of phonetic and and , and actually it'd be great if some , some customers chimed in yeah or , I'm sorry , some listeners chimed in yeah .
JoshIf you live in the P and W or anywhere up North East , whatever where it's not 115 in the summer , where it's not super dry and you know , 30% humidity . Yeah , how frequently do you refill your ceiling ?
Daneif you don't have a puncture . Yeah , we'd love to hear Okay , all right , let's switch gears A long list and we're one line down .
JoshThis is what happens every time we get together . We have this . Maybe we need to make our list shorter , because we don't need .
DaneI'm going to skip the flat mount road bikes because they just road bike thing Road bike breaks flat mount road bike breaks .
JoshThey're just why ? Do you know why ? Why ? Why do you not like ? I think it's awesome , you have one less part .
DaneWell it's , it's the interface One . There was already an interface out there . We already had post mount , so now we got different calipers . So I'll give you an example I'm building a monster gravel and I'm using a mountain bike frame . What the hell is a monster gravel it is , it's going to be .
JoshIt's not like Mike Levy right now . You're like like down country , you're like similar . Is that a real term ? Monster gravel ?
DaneIt'll be rigid fork . Okay , Drop bars one by , but it'll have .
JoshSo it's a drop .
DaneIt's a drop by it's just a drop bar mountain bike , yeah , but it's rigid and it's going to be , you know , set up lower , lower in the front , and it's going to be geared like a . It'll be a monster because it'll have like a 45 in the back , so a 1045 cassette in the back , and then it'll probably have probably a 38 on the front , and so it'll be the kind of bike that you can ride out of your house , go down to the trail and then ride the trail and then ride back .
Bike Industry Standards and Frustrations
DaneAnd so my lightspeed is it is , but this can run two fours .
JoshOh , I can't get up to two fours , but I wouldn't want to .
DaneI just ride your lightspeed at star , pass Well fuck that .
JoshYeah , I won't even ride my 121 . Well , I have ridden the 121 sign and I prefer to ride trail bike .
DaneIt's . This is like all like , like extreme bike packing . This is a bike that can handle any terrain .
JoshYou're building this . Yeah , how many goddamn bikes do you need ?
DaneWe talked in the morning . This isn't even for me .
JoshWho's it for ?
DaneIt's just to sell . Oh , it's a custom frame from a guy who builds them in town . I got it used . Who's who's the ?
Joshframe .
DaneIt's called Healer bikes , Like if you had a dog is that one of Bohemian students ?
JoshDo you know that's a great question Because he had a couple of his students go off and cram .
DaneHe has buddies with one of my favorite frame builders that never builds bikes Corey yeah , corey is one of God , what's Corey's last Rosine ? Rosine yes .
JoshCorey is one of Dave David Bowen Bohemian bikes yeah .
DaneCorey tended to do lugged so it was a little more labor intensive . The guy at Healer , I believe , does welds . I want to get ahold of him and see if he wants to make some bikes for the shop , but I hear he's not doing as much . But the bike is just cool .
JoshYou need to talk , I need to introduce you , if you don't know , to David Uh , well , I know I've , I met him .
DaneYeah , like if , if we see each other , we may be like yeah , I kind of know you , uh , but it's not like we hang out and drink together you know you don't drink with anyone . No , uh-uh Well , diapepsy .
JoshI'm always the DD , so we got to start partying more often , right ? Yeah , you always .
DaneOkay so . So the big thing is this this monster's got post mount breaks , so when I I have to put mountain bike calipers on it , because the road bike ones that are come with the road bike levers won't work on it and so so you have some obscure , weird build you're trying to do Okay . It's not working All right , that's good point . That's the one instance . But as a mechanic we run into those flat mounts not aligning properly .
JoshUh , so I haven't .
DaneI've only have experience with one bike and I thought it was super sweet , so I'm like , oh yeah and we've had some manufacturers where it's so bad we have to get a special tool and actually machine the carbon Uh flatter , so it's proper , so that the caliper will sit straight , and it's frustrating . It's frustrating to have to deal with that when they've got a , a standard that's already kind of addressed that . And and why did they ? Yeah , I , there's reasons they changed . I'll tell you that one of the main reasons is they wanted to keep that rear triangle of the bike Clean and small and they want to resist , they put it in the wind tunnel .
DaneYeah , well , they put it in the triangle instead on top , so that their chain stays could be softer and give you a smoother ride and they wouldn't have to be beefed up , whereas not a big deal on a mountain bike . Yeah and so I get why they're doing it , but it's still frustrating . Okay , we skipped that one , so let's go we skipped it , but we talked about it for five .
DaneWell , so that gets to the next one , which is standards . Okay , what's stupid in the bike industry ? Why can't they stick with some standards like , well , okay , so so you know why . Well , how many bikes do you have out in the garage ? I don't know 16 , 11 or 12 , 15 ?
JoshYeah , there's a lot . There's some of the back that you didn't see .
DaneThere's a different bottom brackets to you there's a lot .
JoshYeah , but you know why I Okay . So I agree 100% that the standards is super frustrating . Yeah , a bike mechanic or a bike shop owner ? Yep , anyone is trying to do anything with bikes ? Yeah , but like If , if I'm a company , that's a for-profit company .
JoshYes then and I make a good product then , just like my Apple iPhone and I have a iPad and an I watch and a MacBook and an Apple TV , because they all work together seamlessly and they don't work with Google shit , yeah , and so I can't integrate my Alexa . As matter of fact , I've retired my Alexa and bought an Apple HomePod , which is a , which is a substandard product to the Alexa , I think to the Alexa I can't remember what they call it , but like the home whatever , like a little round speaker thing . They've got me hooked and I have to buy Apple products . Okay , and so as a business , it makes sense to build stuff that doesn't integrate .
DaneOkay , your analysis is shit , and here's why . So , it depends on your lens . No , go ahead , good it . So here's what it is in the bike industry . You're dealing with a Frame manufacturer , so that would be like your Apple , but then your frame manufacturer is not making the bottom bracket , not making the cranks , not making the wheels , not making the headset .
JoshOkay , so if you're not , so they can't do that , okay . If it's not like your products , yeah , then I don't understand it .
DaneI don't either , and and and so they're okay now .
JoshI'm gonna , so my analysis is not shit .
DaneIt is . It is Because you , because they're not even close to the same thing , not even close like in Apple . They , they're making everything themselves and they're making their programs work with their things . If Trek bicycle made a bike and then made the cranks and the bottom .
JoshYeah , okay , okay , I'm coming on and then side of the equation .
DaneIn fact , your analysis is better in cars like Ford . Yes , makes the car , then they make the engine and they make all the parts . And so you can't just stick a Ford , you know , I don't know alternator into a Chevy like they won't , they won't match up , I mean , and so so that's a standard that they've created and where they have one standard for theirs and I actually respect that more , you know , because we were all used to it . Right , in bikes You've got Trek has one bottom bracket and Ibis has another bottom bracket , and then , and there and pivots , another one , and then you get into Rocky mountain , they're all over the place and they keep going back and forth on what's Better and what's worse . I can tell you in bottom brackets that Fundamentally everybody loves the threaded because it creaks less . Press , fit , sucks , press , fit , sucks . That's what everybody's okay . Okay , do you ?
Daneagree with that or no , in our shop the amount of press fits that we see creak are minimal , if really . If yeah , now I'm gonna preface that with two things , and I've I've experimented with this one . We do carry pivot , and pivot is Super anal do they make ?
Joshis there stuff press fit you press fit yeah all of its press fit . Yeah , but they're super anal super brain , so they have really good tolerances and so you have less chance of been there , I will go there . I want to show you how they , how they test these and it's like it Explains a lot of why that is .
DaneNow . I'll have an example of their earlier bike . That was aluminum and not carbon and it did have creak issues and we couldn't fix it for one of our customers . It's a local guy . I love the guy , but he won't come back to me because he bought a pivot from me and we couldn't get his bottom bracket to stop screekin and he got rid of the bike because of it , and so it's not like they were infallible , but this was ten years ago .
DaneYeah okay , so .
Bike Maintenance Tips
DaneSo the other thing is that we do a special treatment to the bottom brackets to get them to not make noise and Most of this . What is the treatment that you do ? I can't tell you , because then every bike shop will do it and we won't have a competitive advantage .
JoshIf you have a , don't even care , I'm just kidding .
DaneNo , we use ? We use a Teflon paste instead of grease . Teflon paste yeah so most of the noise that you hear with a creaky bottom bracket when it's press fit is the plastic . In most cases , like Shimano bottom brackets that are plastic .
JoshYep .
DaneI'm moving inside the shell , inside the shell and and it's under load , sometimes it's well into the ride . So you've heated the bearings up and you have a heat difference . Yes , that changes the yeah so that the what we found is that the grease will eventually go away , especially in Arizona . We you can put your bike in the garage and 115 degrees out . Your garage is 120 or more .
JoshYeah , and the grease 150 actually grease will melt away .
DaneIt will actually lead like evaporate it . It just literally melts out of the bike and you've seen these bikes before . You've seen there . They've got some sort of film . Near the headset it looks yellow , or the bottom bracket . Yeah yeah , that's the grease melting out and . Yeah , and so we found that Teflon paste Creates a interface that doesn't one . It's kind of a putty and so it doesn't want to melt , doesn't go anywhere and to it tends to Reduce that noise . So , like , what's the ?
Joshbrand .
DaneThis isn't a bike brand that this would be like no hardware brand yeah ace or Home Depot or whatever you just go get like Teflon paste or different types , or is it just Teflon paste ?
JoshYeah , you can get it off Amazon , whatever . Okay , and what's the application ? Do you just use your finger ?
DaneYep sticky sucks . I have to go wash off , right , but it's here's my experiments . That we've done is we've .
DaneI built a good friend of mine's bike up , and this was just right after we went to pivot and saw their manufacturing and saw these tolerances and I'm like you know what I'm just gonna assemble this normal and see what happens and I I think it was two weeks he came back in with a creaky bottom bracket and it wasn't because it melted , it was just because the grease just didn't do the right job , right , you know , and a lot of companies or a lot of hacks you know like and I don't mean hacks Like they can't do anything , but like like you're hacking something like that means that you figured out something different than maybe the Instructions say . We'll say , use Loctite or use all kinds of different stuff . I've seen all kinds of stuff . I Want something that's not permanent .
JoshI don't want something that's gonna ruin . You haven't seen any indication , because I know like Different compounds or different form of chemical formulations will react poorly with certain no carbon . You haven't seen no .
DaneYeah , and we've got . We're in 10 years of doing this .
JoshSo . So , like I'm addicted , we've established now how much you hate YouTube . Mm-hmm . Well , no , I don't , I use it all the time .
DaneWhat ? What drives me nuts is that somebody will disregard some advice from somebody who's got many , many years , yeah , of doing this , because some asshole like me , listen to some guy on . Because they're on on a screen social media They'll take it as the gospel and sometimes that you just you gotta be careful . People don't know what they're talking about , sometimes Including your local expert , you know so have you heard of moto Rex ? Yeah .
JoshSo , like g Miller , mm-hmm , you've got one of g Miller's bikes . Yep , yeah that yeti 120 in the the g Miller dream bike giveaway . The last . There's two of the yeti's were so little older .
DaneIt's the 120 . Yeah , yeah , but there's been yeah , so it was like six months ago .
JoshYeah , that bike was given away . Yeah , I can't remember .
DaneI think I went back , and when you sent me a picture , I went back or told me about it . Anybody wants to buy that bike .
JoshWe have it in the shop , so yeah so he's got a g Miller dream build Yeti 120 in the shop on consignment right now . Yeah , but um so g in his build . Because I watched those build videos , because I'm like I don't know , I'm a dick , I'm a dick there's . I'm not dick , but I'm addicted as well . But he uses motor rex Grease and for the longest time I was trying to figure out , because he's got this little applicator Mm-hmm and I'm sick of getting grease all my hands and I don't like wearing latex love and lots of them in the bedroom .
JoshYeah , that was Mike's deal , mike's in the SNM .
DaneI don't . He's not in the latex . I don't know , I don't know what he's into .
JoshAnyways , so forever I was pausing his videos and trying to blow him up so I could read what what he was using is . I couldn't figure out what was . Yeah , finally I found he put in there that it was a motor wreck . So I just bought , like the white grease , the bike grease and the carbon paste for good cost . I've been that e-bike that I built up . We're gonna talk about that . Yeah , it's sometime the future . Yep , I used all that motor wreck stuff , so yeah , but a Teflon , have you talked to pivot about that ?
DaneNo , no , I you know honestly , we don't . You don't have the problem with pivots , so so it's a hack . You know it's one of those things that you're doing . That's maybe not in the instruction manual , you know . And yeah does it void the warranty ? And the first few times I did it I did it with my friends and said take it out , let me know . You know that's usually the way I test stuff .
JoshYou know I'm not gonna test it on on , I don't know yeah .
DaneI'm gonna have my friends go out and see what they say , or I do it on my own bike . You know , that's honestly . It goes on my own bike first and then goes to my friends and then goes to customers and we just had such good luck . It's just become the thing now . When I get a new mechanic , I have to get them into that groove because it's not in the manual . You know .
JoshI wonder how many bike shops right now are out ordering on Amazon , ordering Teflon .
DaneHere's . The funny thing is , how many are gonna write us a letter that says you guys , don't know what which will happen . You know , and I got a throw caveat that you know a lot of the things that we do here . We talk about this in the shop .
JoshIt sounds a very unique environment .
DaneDifferent environment and it may not work where you're just like you know , the tire I recommend here may not work in the PNW that great and so sure or wherever you know , if we , if we get away from the West Coast and go to , like you know , I don't know .
JoshMichigan , you know , or Wisconsin , it's from yeah , exactly .
DaneOr Maine , I yeah . I think Maine's got some good riding , I don't know .
JoshSo I think this is , this is one thing I've concluded , and then I think we're gonna wrap up and this will be part one of a two-part series .
DaneStupid things , but we haven't even got a quarter . Maybe it's a part three .
Joshthree part , yeah , but uh , um , I Think every place in the world has good mountain biking . Yeah , yeah , I think so and I've been in flat , I've been in mountains , I've been in , except the Sahara . I've been in the Sahara .
DaneI've , never , I've never like there .
JoshMaybe you have to have to fat , but Although there is beautiful I mean not in the desert itself , but um but I think most places , okay , most places in the world , have amazing mountain biking , no matter where you're at . So , hey , man , we should probably wrap up All right .
DaneWe're gonna do part two of this . We'll do part two , but you know , what would be great is if people either hit us up on Facebook or email . Yeah , facebook's Instagram sentence .
JoshDM's or hit us on email with any other things . You have a lot stupid that you think are stupid , although so , if we do it this way , bro , the way that we have a release schedule , our listeners won't have heard this . Oh yeah before we record . That's true , so so let's do this . Okay , we'll release this you know , what , and then we'll give it some time . Maybe in like a two months or something we're recording out their episode after we get feedback from this .
DaneAll right and well , and another thing I'm gonna try is I'm gonna go on Facebook and put the question up , okay , and that way maybe we can get some responses , even though they haven't heard the first one . Yeah , okay , that's okay , that sounds good . I'd like to get people more involved so they can kind of hear their comments .
JoshYeah . So along those lines , you know , we'd love to hear from you . Like I said earlier , you know , hit us up on on Gmail , give us some feedback , positive , negative . We want to make this an entertaining show for you guys . So if you're enjoying it , let us know , if not , let us know and we'll work to make it better . You know , go out to Apple , give us a review , that five-star review . We'd love go out to Spotify or wherever you get your podcast and and give us some reviews so we can , we can see what's going on and continue tell a friend .
DaneTell a friend , that's another thing . Yeah , please tell a friend . In the shop we always say if you're happy , tell three people and if you're not happy , just shut the fuck up , don't say it .
JoshExcept for to us . We want to hear that . Yes , hey , we appreciate our audience , we appreciate you guys . Thanks so much for listening to us and yeah , man , take care .
DaneYou .
