Mountain Cog
Mountain bike podcast that will make you laugh and learn. Featuring a wide range of passionate guests. Available everywhere (Apple, Spotify etc).
Mountain Cog
112 - Bike Shop Secrets: Chasing Creaks - A Mechanic's Nightmare and How You Can Fix It
Are you struggling with a mysterious bike creak that's driving you insane? In this episode of Mountain Cog Podcast, hosts Josh and Dane dive deep into the most frustrating problem in bike maintenance: diagnosing and fixing bike creaks. Learn the systematic approach mechanics use to troubleshoot creaking sounds, from checking your headset and wheel axles to inspecting bottom brackets, pedals, and suspension pivots. Dane shares insider knowledge on the most common culprits behind bike creaks and reveals why some noises seem impossible to locate, even for professional mechanics.
The conversation also tackles the confusing world of bike grease – do you really need expensive brands like Motorex, or will basic Park Tool grease work just fine? Discover when to use slick honey versus standard bearing grease, the truth about carbon assembly paste, and why proper lubrication prevents most creaking issues. Whether you're a home mechanic or just want to better communicate with your local bike shop, this episode provides actionable bike maintenance tips that could save you hours of frustration and potentially hundreds of dollars in unnecessary repairs.
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I think we should start talking during the music. Just in the background.
Host: Josh:Just in the background? Just randomly talking?
Host: Dane:Randomly talking. Like, hey Dane, maybe you shouldn't adjust the mic shit while we record. Hey, you know what? Like, I if I just look at this thing, you'll hear like something in the background. Uh we're in a new position recording tonight. That sounds dirty. It does. Um not that kind of position. But yeah, like it, I so I had to like move the mic around, and Josh is such a sound freak. Like he he's gotta have the perfect sound.
Host: Josh:Good sound. We're in the back bench, not the front bench.
Host: Dane:Yeah. I you know, I have issues like this with my wife. Uh really? Yeah, like, you know, um she'll have like issues, you know, and we have to talk it out. And there's one that came up and um I was you know, I she she was at work, you know, she works from home. Yeah. And so she is, you know, dealing with uh like Zoom calls and stuff like that, and something went wrong or something. And and I was like, you know, you you just need to embrace your mistakes. That's good advice. Yeah, and then she came over and gave me a hug.
Host: Josh:Watching you struggle through that joke was the best part of my fucking day.
Host: Dane:Well, because nobody can see it, but I for I forgot the punchline halfway through. He's looking at his phone. My phone shut off, so I can no longer glance over.
Host: Josh:I was gonna rescue you, but I'm like, no, let's see how you.
Host: Dane:That's why you do most of the jokes. Hey, guess what? I actually, if you wouldn't have said anything, I thought I pulled it off.
Host: Josh:You did, you wouldn't, but I didn't because it was so entertaining. Oh my god. But in the meantime, I invented a new word. Oh shit. What is it? Plagiarism.
Host: Dane:I feel like somebody else may have come up with maybe you're stealing that word. I could. If only there was some way to describe what you're doing. All right. It is, I don't even know what day of the week.
Host: Josh:It's Wednesday, right? Wednesday, Wednesday night on the MCP here, Mountain Cog. By the way, I uh today, I don't even know why I'm telling our listeners this, but today I redirected MTNCOG to our website is mtnc-o-g.com. Okay. So now it's Mountain Cog. You can spell it out, or you can do mtncog.com. Only six letters.
Host: Dane:Okay. Also gets you to our website. Okay. What was the first one? Mountain. Mountain Cog. Can you spell it? Yeah. Mountain. Okay. All right, gotcha.
Host: Josh:Mountaincog.com or mtncog.com. Okay. So now we have two websites being directed to us. We got to get some shirts with the new logo. I I got an idea about shirts and hats and stuff, but I don't want to tell you online, so we'll talk about it later. Okay, all right. I got an interesting idea. Okay. So we're here for another bike shop secret episode.
Host: Dane:Well, so this is part two. Part two. Because the last one that we did, you had one question. We had like one question that lasted the entire all the questions I had tonight are not from that list.
Host: Josh:They're new questions. What? Yes. Oh, so what about that list? Well, that'll be part 75 or whatever. I have so many questions for you, Dane. Um, but we think we have some good ones. Yeah. Um and so we'll just get into it. Is that cool? Okay. Yeah, cool. Absolutely. How was your day, by the way?
Host: Dane:I was good. It's been busy at the shop, which is great. Uh, they're um this week's been a little long already, and it's Wednesday, so I'm looking forward to the weekend. Uh, I still can't ride, so uh the update on my shoulder is uh I got three weeks to go before I can ride, but I'm gonna sneak out uh and ride on the pavement with my kids. I think that's pretty safe. I will. I honestly I think my bone's very solid. Yeah, I just don't want to crash, and you know, they they you know, they want me to be safe because they don't want a mishap.
Host: Josh:So well, I'm heading to San Diego for a week starting on Saturday and I'm gonna hang out with Rob. So my I as a matter of fact, Rob called me, Rob Tavacoli, who's the CEO of Sport RX, he called me while I was here.
Host: Dane:Yeah.
Host: Josh:And uh sitting over on Tyler's uh couch over there.
Host: Dane:Yeah.
Host: Josh:And we were going back and forth between going to Santa's Village, between going to La Sueno, uh-huh, and just based on the time commitments and like trying to be good dad, we decided that we're gonna do Noble again. Oh, really?
Host: Dane:So I was gonna say if it's hot, go to Santa's Village. If it's not hot, La Sueno.
Host: Josh:It's just a time commitment. I want to try to be back by like three o'clock. Oh, we can go do Noble and I can be back by three o'clock. And if we do La Sueno or if we do all day, Santa, you know, Santa's Santa's Village for sure. We're not gonna get home till like nine o'clock. Yeah. So um I need to talk to you because I think I'm gonna do maybe some some suspension transportation here back and forth. So we'll we'll talk about that. Yeah. Um but yeah, I'm really excited. I need some time away from work. Yeah, I wish I was going by I wish I was going to be.
Host: Dane:I wish you were going too, bro. Yeah, I really am Jones and hard to get out on the bike, and that's why I'm gonna just go out with my kids and and get the wheels moving. I did um the other day, I was here by myself on on one of the days we were closed catching up on work, and I finished a bike, and I went outside to test ride it, totally not even thinking about it, totally had forgotten about my shoulder, got on the bike, and I'm betting in the brakes and I'm riding around the parking lot and came back and I went to to kind of come up the little curb up to the sidewalk. And and I stopped and I was like, uh, there's a cur, there's a um, you know, what is it, the parking block, yeah, and then there's a gap and then the sidewalk, and I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna jump that. I'm just I I I shouldn't jump that. And then I stopped the bike and I was like, Oh, wait, I just rode a bike. And I've got a broken collarbone.
Host: Josh:Just got surgery three days ago. Maybe I shouldn't be doing this.
Host: Dane:But but there was no pain, there was no issues, no nothing, and I was like really kind of excited because that was the first time on the bike since I crashed. So it was just nice, and I you could feel that the tiny bit of riding, the therapy that went on, you know. It sucks it out.
Host: Josh:It sucks the pain out, right? It sucks the sucks the stress out.
Host: Dane:I was happier that day. I was definitely more patient with people that day. Like it it was nice.
Host: Josh:So well, I tell you what, we we set up this weekly night ride with like my mic buddies on the east side. Dane lives on the northwest side.
Host: Dane:So it's in Tucson's sense, it's a good hour, which for if you're in LA, that's nothing. But in Tucson, that's like I could drive to Phoenix, you know.
Host: Josh:So we've got our our weekly Tuesday night ride we call the flight club. So you're because you're not supposed to talk about it. And this week we had another person show up, and so I had to do the speech. Like, obviously, some of you are not following the rules of flight club because I see a new face here. It's hilarious. No, it's a it's a cool group. Um works well. And we it's interesting, we bring two beers. I shouldn't say this on the podcast because someone's gonna try to catch us, but we bring two beers each, uh-huh, and the beers get hidden at the beginning of the ride. Uh-huh. We can't bring more than two beers each because that limits that makes sure that we don't get like hammered and routed post-ride. We usually ride 10 or 11 miles, and we're always out there. We're like, hey, you guys want to go another five miles? And then someone in the group's like, We got beers waiting, and we're like, okay, let's head back. So we get a good 10-mile ride in at night, which is a blast.
Host: Dane:What are you hiding them so you don't have to carry them with you?
Host: Josh:Yeah, so we have a cooler that's got, you know, a little cooler, it's got ice and stuff like that. So you stash it at like the front. And we hide it in the desert. Yeah. Uh somewhere, somewhere in Tucson.
Host: Dane:Yeah, yeah. Let's say that. But you're stashing it so that you can do kind of a loop and then come back and then it's nice and fresh, and it's not all shaken up.
Host: Josh:You can't drive the beer. Yeah. You have to ride from your house to the trailhead with the beer. Oh, that's cool. That's responsible of you. I there's you're Which is a surprise, right? Yeah, yeah.
Host: Dane:Very I was very surprised right now. There's lots of um group rides that we have around that, you know, involve beer. There's a company, uh Farend Gear, who Oh, I don't know them. They started off in Tucson, uh, and they make um like cozies. Coozies? Beer koozies, but they make this one sling one. So you can they have these pieces of uh like you know, it's like the the stuff you stick in your freezer for your cooler. Yeah, but they're beer can shaped, and so you freeze them, then you put them the beer can in it and then in the koozie, and it keeps it cold, and and that's important here in the desert. But they make a sling one that's really cool. So you can put like five beers on there, yeah, yeah, and you can have it like as a bandolier, you know. Don't tell me that. Oh yeah. And so um I'm pretty sure they're still doing that. Uh uh, the guy who started it moved away, he's awesome. And I'm blanking on his name because I'm awful when I'm on the mic, but um, yeah. But I you know, the his his stuff is really cool, and there's a whole group of guys that use that stuff, and that's part of their ride. Like the the the uh beer ride, you know, the beer, you know, the beer break or whatever. Yeah. So if you guys didn't know this, Dane doesn't drink at all.
Host: Josh:Yeah. And you know how I know you don't drink. Well, I mean, I drink water. You drink water, he doesn't drink any alcohol. Do you know how I know you don't drink? How? Because you called it a cozy. Uh yeah, coo kooz koozie, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Host: Dane:I don't even use those for a soda.
Host: Josh:So yeah, you could use koozies for a soda just as easily.
Host: Dane:Now I say soda, and I'm from Wisconsin, so I should be saying pop. Pop. Yeah. I grew up saying pop too. Yeah, but you know what interesting, I I lived in Texas for a while.
Host: Josh:What the hell are we talking about? I don't even know. But I gotta finish the thought just so we don't have like a dead end. But they call everything, or at least they did, they called everything coke. Oh, yeah. So it's like, what kind of coke do you want? I'm like, what do you mean what kind of coke do I want? Like, well, we got Sprite, Dr. Pepper, Fannah. I'm like, those aren't Coke. Like, yeah.
Host: Dane:What kind of pop do I want? Yeah. Well, I'll always say I want a diet soda. And then it's funny, I think there's some legal obligation. I'm not joking when I say this. The person at the restaurant will be like, is diet Pepsi okay? You know, or is diet coke okay? And I'm like, how many people get really mad at you?
Host: Josh:All right, let's talk about some bike stuff. What do you think? We're 10 minutes in, we haven't talked a day.
Host: Dane:No, yeah, and and it sounds like you got some meaty, meaty stuff. I got some good questions. Okay.
Host: Josh:So um, so I think one of the most frustrating things, probably universally uh accepted by all mountain bikers, maybe even all just bicyclists, like serious bicyclists, is diagnosing a creek. Oh my god, and I've got one when I was coming back last night. Um I'm you're gonna be proud of me. You haven't been with me a while. I'm getting faster, bro. And I'm getting slower, bro. It's good. Maybe we'll meet in the middle somewhere. But uh Lacey's been coaching me. Nick's been everyone's been coaching me, trying to help Josh get faster. But um, I've unlocked some things and figured out some of the things you downhillers do.
Host: Dane:Yeah.
Host: Josh:You pedal.
Host: Dane:Yeah.
Host: Josh:Like downhill. Oh, yeah. I didn't know that. Oh, you're just coasting the whole time. Jesus. Turns out when you pedal, you go left. Lacey's telling me, like, you gotta pump and pedal. I'm like, downhill? Yeah. Like, that's what I do uphill. Why would I pedal downhill? I want to. She's like, no, if you want to go fast, you gotta pedal.
Host: Dane:Yeah, yeah. It's amazing how much uh like a downhill race is like a six-minute sprint. Yeah, like full on spring.
Host: Josh:Like my heart, like I usually my heart rate's chilling on the downhill. Yeah, now it's like my heart rate's exploding on the downhill. So, anyways, um, diagnosing a creek. So, could you help like someone you know, customer comes in, says, Hey Dane, or or whomever, uh, this bike is creaking, cracking, popping, whatever. Like, what's the process that you go through to help diagnose that and fix that? What are the most common culprits? What are the solution sets? You know, and and help our listeners kind of think through that.
Host: Dane:So the first thing we do is we um ask them to get their wallet out.
Host: Josh:He's he's not laughing at all, by the way.
Host: Dane:Um, and then I was gonna say buy a new bike, but um creeks are just the biggest, hardest thing to do, I would say. As long as I've been working on bikes, the most daunting task is finding and chasing them.
Host: Josh:So I would like to apologize to Chris Croto.
Host: Dane:Yeah.
Host: Josh:Because every time I have a creek, you I get a Croto and I'm like, hey man, I'm gonna be on vacation for a week. Yep, this thing's got a creek, good luck.
Host: Dane:Yeah. And and so uh creeks can come from everywhere and anywhere, and sometimes they will literally sound like they're coming from one part of the bike, but actually be at another part of the bike. And most often creeks are they can be signs of something being loose, something being out of tolerance or broken. Uh they can be you can get a creak when uh frame has a crack. You can it will kind of manifest in kind of a creak. Um you can get ticking, so tickings are in the creek category. Pop, tick, creep, anything that doesn't sound right. Yeah. You can have uh little grit in between your suspension pivots that makes a little noise but is not doing anything, but it drives you insane. Um, the the irony is we'll have people, we'll have customers that are so upset about a creek, and even though it's not doing anything, that they're just almost can't bride.
Host: Josh:Yeah, that's how I'm that's what I'm like.
Host: Dane:Yeah, I'm like, I can't ride this bike if I don't have a if it's got a creek, Jesus. But then we have the opposite customer that comes in and we're like, how are you how is this bike still working? Not not even the cr not just the noises, but they're putting up with like you know, the the cranks are loose and like headsets loose, like you know, the bike is falling, quite literally falling apart, you know. The amount of times I've seen a bike come in with a broken rear axle, and the guy's like, Yeah, I just started doing this six months ago, and I just kept riding it. Like, what? And so it's amazing the tolerance level that changes between people. Yeah. Um, I am very tolerant. If I know that the creek is just one of those annoyances and it's an anomaly and it's not a performance thing, I can tune it out. And so I I I will often you know let something slide. My my current newest bike has a creek in it, and it's three rides old. And I'm like, Yeah, pretty sure I broke some Loctite loose, took a part off, and when I put it back, I probably didn't torque it correctly. And I'm pretty sure that's what it is, but nothing's gonna fall out, and it works fine. I just need to go grease the surface. Yeah. So okay.
Host: Josh:So what I'm trying to draw out of you is the diagnosis like like we did last week. So take us through the whole diagnosis process and how you guys figure it out and what the most common culprits can be.
Host: Dane:And that's what I'm telling you. There is no diagnosis, there is no troubleshooting flow chart, there's nothing. Because you have to first, okay, I guess so. Let me let me start with the first thing we have to do is try and figure out the area of the bike that's coming from. Gotcha. You know, if you come in and you're hearing it in your saddle, uh in the shop, what we'll do is we'll often do a bunch of like yanking and and like chiropractic looking moves on your bike where we're trying to like induce the creak. Yeah. You know, like we'll twist the saddle and we'll uh often I'll hold the saddle and and grab the rear wheel and kind of pull it side to side, okay, you know, and see if I can get the noise to be duplicated. Um creeks often are in a bottom bracket area, it's really common.
Host: Josh:Okay.
Host: Dane:And so sometimes you'll see us like lean the bike to one side as we side load uh the crank on the pedal, and then quickly switch to the other side and side load the other one and see, because sometimes that's a sign that the bottom bracket is shifting. And so only when you're pedaling is that bottom bracket moving, so you can't just push one side, you've got to have to shift it one side over to the other side, over to the other side, and that's the noise you're hearing while you're riding. Um saddles can make the noise where it's the seat clamp or sometimes the interface of the seat post in the frame. Um sometimes the seat collar has a little grit underneath it, it's that simple. Um headsets creak all the time. Uh one of the biggest causes of creaks is overwashing your bike. I hate washing bikes, dude. When you work on bikes, bike washing hater. And again, I'm gonna throw the disclaimer we're in the desert, we get away with a lot more. Like if you are in a wet climate, you your bike's gonna get wet and you have to get the crud off, so you're just gonna deal with it. But you're not gonna be really surprised when you have to replace your bearings much more often.
Host: Josh:Hold your thought for a second.
Host: Dane:Okay. You hear a creak? We're getting some weird feedback. I'm not hearing it. Are you hearing it? Maybe it's your headphones. And then there's maybe homeless people outside shouting. Take your headphones off.
Host: Josh:It's a cricket.
Host: Dane:Oh, yeah, I can hear it. Are you gonna cut that out or are you gonna leave it? I don't know that I can get it. Well, I'll cut out all this, you and I talking. Now you know how creeks affect you.
Host: Josh:Three, two, one, go. Okay, so sorry about that. We got a cricket in Dane's shop, and I'm like hearing it in the mic, and I'm like, Dane, stop talking. Yes, there's a fucking cricket in here, which is hilarious because we're talking about creeks. Do you remember where you were go at?
Host: Dane:Yeah, so I'm I'm kind of describing how many different areas you can have creeks, and then uh some of the things that can help cause creeks. You know, first one is kind of overwashing or or the bearings running out of lubrication.
Host: Josh:Okay.
Host: Dane:Um, there's different types of things that will creak, like uh, you know, if a bearing, a seal cartridge bearing starts to move or shift in its perch, you know, or its orifice or whatever you want to call it, basically where where it sits, it can cause a noise. And then bottom brackets, uh, there's a big trend of what's called press fit bottom brackets where they're not threaded. And so those drive a lot of people nuts. One of the discussions we had today in the shop is how one of our brands tolerance is so good. Pivot. Yeah, even though they have press fit bottom brackets, we almost never have issues. Yep. Um, we have a couple tricks that we kind of prep bikes to not have those creeks.
Host: Josh:And so there's so let's so I want to give some practical advice. And you're kind of talking in broad generality, so I want to bring you back. Like, let me tell you the things I do and then you can correct me. Okay. Yeah. Okay, so like one of the first things I do is check the headset. And now when you say check the headset, what's the point? So to make sure that the headset is tight so that there's compression. So you do that. So I put my fingers on the top of the top tube, on either side, I hold the front brake, and I move the bike back and forth to see if the bike is actually moving, like I can feel the fork moving independent of the fr of the frame. Yeah. And that tells me that there's not enough compression. I think it tells me that there's not enough compression on that stark nut that's pulling together the headset with the fork. Tensioning the headset. Thank you. Tensioning the headset. Yeah. So that's the first thing I do. Okay. Is that an okay place to start?
Host: Dane:That's so that's that's really common that if that that comes loose, which actually does on new bikes a lot, um, it's it's really common that that can come loose, and then that can be a source of a creak. You're you know, to describe what you're doing, you're kind of bridging the gap with your finger from the frame to the headset. Yeah. And then your finger will feel little movements, and if they're independent, you know that there's some play in there. Yeah.
Host: Josh:And so I so then I I loosen the stem bolts that are tightening it onto the fork steerer. Yeah. And then I tighten up a little bit the to torque, of course. Yep.
Host: Dane:Well, there there's not a so the the tricky part is that top bolt, that top tensioning bolt, doesn't have a torque because it's a tension. And so you need to the the hardest part of that is knowing how much tension. Right. Because if you just if you just crank it down, it'll start to pull that. It'll not only do that, but it's gonna side load your bearings so they're gonna uh deteriorate faster. And so you're kind of trying to get this kind of sweet spot. Sweet spot, perfect tension, and there's a little bit of an art form, but it's not super hard.
Host: Josh:Um and kind of do it to where it's like kind of hard to turn, but not hard to turn. Okay.
Host: Dane:Um, one of the quick things that I do in the shop all the time when I'm just talking to somebody and I have a bike next to me, and I just do it out of habit, is I'll grab the grab the headset spacers, and I'll just be while I'm talking to them trying to turn them. And if you can turn those headset spacers, you know, without you know taking the thing apart, you have a really good chance that that headset's way too loose.
Host: Josh:Oh, that's a great tip.
Host: Dane:Yeah, and I never thought about that. It's funny because I do it so much that I will be talking to somebody on the sales floor trying to twist the headset. And I'll just be now the headset spacers under the stem. Under the stem, obviously, yeah. And I'll just be kind of like just put, you know, what is this, your forefinger and your thumb? Yeah. And I'll just kind of just be index finger. Index finger and thumb, and I'll just turn it. And if I can do it easily, then I know that I gotta tell a mechanic to go adjust that headset. Um or if I'm taking in a bike, you know, uh, same thing. I can kind of quickly or if we're on the trail, like I can do that with a friend's bike and just kind of do a quick adjustment. It doesn't mean that the the headset is um if you if they don't move move, it doesn't mean that the headset is at perfect tension, but it's less likely to be super loose.
Host: Josh:And okay, so the next thing I'll do once I've determined that the this is my process and you can correct it and make it change the order of operations and make me more effective. The second thing I'll do is I'll grab the um handlebars and then I'll twist or tweak the front wheel to see if the axle's tight. Yeah. And just feel if like that front axle is tight. And then I go and do the same thing to the back, and I cannot tell you how often that's the problem.
Host: Dane:So uh you're kind of trying to twist the So I'm just I'm just shaking the wheel back and forth to see if the axle's tight. Okay.
Host: Josh:Just just gently. Just like, yeah, is it is it I mean the wheel should be pretty firmly placed in you know in the fork or in the rear axle.
Host: Dane:So in the back in the day when we had what's called cup and cone systems, and the bearings weren't sealed, and you could develop play uh the way that they were built, they would uh they would actually develop play. But your quick release would be tight. So it's didn't do any good to tighten your quick release anymore, but your wheel would be loose.
Host: Josh:You could still feel it.
Host: Dane:Yeah, yeah.
Host: Josh:If your quick release was tight, you knew that it was an axle problem or a hub problem.
Host: Dane:Yeah, now with through axles it's less uh impactive, and so I find I just check my through axles. Usually either they'll have a lever on it or I'll check it with the bottom.
Host: Josh:So I can instead of like shaking the tire, I could probably just go check the axle and make sure it's tight.
Host: Dane:And shaking that tire may be just a habit you developed back when you started riding and you just continue to do it. Um that's why I was questioning it because I'm like, wait, why wouldn't you just check your axle? And uh and as a downhiller, I was taught very, very early every run almost checked well, not just that, like suspension bolts, everything. Yeah, the amount of like impact and vibration that's going on those bikes is like ten times what a regular bike is going through, and stuff comes loose real easy. And so you can come down the mountain and have your rear axle being you know starting to move out, your wheel can shift over, it can do a lot of damage.
Host: Josh:I gotta take us down a rabbit hole, and I'm sorry to do this, but you know the bike racks that are really popular, the one-up racks? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What I've noticed since I've gotten that rack and I've had it in the two bike configuration in the four-bike, and I love that rack. It's an amazing rack. Some somehow that rack transfers the vibration from the road to your bike more than any other rack I've seen. And I cannot tell you how many times I've gone on a long trip, took my bike off, and there was three or four bolts that were loose because that rack has shaken and moved those bolts loose.
Host: Dane:Yeah, I I believe it. I I don't think it's specific to just that rack.
Host: Josh:That's just my experience.
Host: Dane:Yeah, we were doing shuttles on a on a mountain, and one of the the kids' Rocky Mountains, not my kids, but a friend's kid's um Rocky Mountains, we got up to the top to get off, and his axle had was almost halfway out. And you know, the bike wouldn't function that way, and we had just got done doing a run, and so we're like and it was a dirt road that we're gonna do. It happened in the train the transmit. And so checking your nuts and bolts is really important. Back to the creek part and headsets. Um, one of the things is grease. So a lot of people they they grease sometimes works its way out, and and overwashing or washing your bike can push grease out of an area.
Host: Josh:Yep.
Host: Dane:And if you don't have grease in between a couple surfaces, they actually move. Like a lot of stuff on your bike actually moves when you're using it, even though you think it doesn't. So your headset is actually still moving a little bit, even though you've tensioned it properly. There's the surfaces aren't perfect, there's you know, shiny parts and not so shiny parts, and and things are just kind of moving, and the grease kind of gets rid of the vibration sound that comes out of that. And so greasing it it helps that. And of course the ball bearings in the headset bearings needs to be in there because they heads I was about to say something. Oh, they get hot. They don't. Headset bearings never spin enough to get hot, but uh in in the headset itself, it just keeps them quieter, and the balls don't skip, which causes knurling and which can cause pitting and and things like that. You said balls. Yep, yeah. And dude, you don't want pitted balls. Nobody wants pitted balls. Yeah. And you don't want your ball skipping. Uh uh, no matter what you say, and what she may say, you don't want skipping balls. Don't let your balls get skipped. Oh god, oh god, oh god. Actually, I meant to do this one. Oh, yeah, that's better. That's better. Um so uh grease is uh something that can help diagnose. So if you're seeing a headset like if you're really getting a creek and you can't figure out why, if you pull the headset apart and look at it and there's minimal grease in there, sometimes just greasing it helps.
Host: Josh:Okay, so so since I'm gonna take us down and I'm looking to my left and I see three different types of grease.
Host: Dane:Oh yeah. Okay, so I have two types of grease, and that's that's what I was gonna tell you. Is uh so what Josh is looking at in the shop, we have three tubs. One is slick honey, one is park uh bicycle grease, and the other one is called finish line fiber grip. Oh, that's that's the uh okay, fiber grips fiber grips for carbon. Yep, exactly.
Host: Josh:Okay, let me get to my question. Not a grease. Not a grease. I know, I know. So I am on the Motorex train. Sure. Yeah. And it's not because Shimano is now distributing Motorex, and I'm a Shimano fanboy. Maybe it is.
Host: Dane:You can say that.
Host: Josh:Okay. So they offer three types of product, maybe more, but three that I've I've procured. One is bike grease that is clear, one is white grease that is thicker. Sometimes lithium bike. I think so. And then one is a carbon paste, which I think is what your finish line. Yeah. And then also slick honey with a low viscosity. Yeah. So maybe so you know, I've watched uh G Miller. Have you ever watched G Miller? Okay, so G Miller is on um on YouTube. Okay. And he this is like where I've learned to build bikes, is really watching G Miller. Okay. So he does these like 30-minute dream bike builds.
Host: Dane:Is this the guy that does them like out in a field?
Host: Josh:No, no, he's in his shop. Well, he has done them in the fields and stuff occasionally. Does he give the bikes away? He does.
Host: Dane:So we had one of those Yetis.
Host: Josh:I know, and I have signed up for every goddamn one of his. To try to win one. I've had good luck with with other other other you know, giveaways or raffles. But um, so I watch him, and for a while Motorex was his like sponsor. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so he had Motorex, I bought all the Motorex. By the way, if you like, if you're interested in, if you like this podcast, you'll probably like G Miller's. It's like it's ASMR, he doesn't say a word. Yeah, yeah. It's all sounds of it. He just takes 30 to 45 minutes and builds an entire bike every single step by step. You watch everything he does. Uh, you don't see the problems that he has. I'm sure he cuts that shit out. Yeah, it all looks like it's the perfect seamless build. Bullshit G Miller. It's never a perfect build.
Host: Dane:And everything's always clean and perfect, and like, yeah, but no, it's not like that.
Host: Josh:But what I'm trying to figure out, I kind of understand slick honey is like inside suspension products, inside dropper posts, like when you really need high uh high viscosity or low viscosity.
Host: Dane:Yeah, there's a lot of people will will argue my big thing in the suspension is that slick honey dissolves in oil. So if it is in the fork and there's valves, it will not clog the valves. If you put a waterproof grease on uh that grease can float through the oil and then possibly. So it's good to use slick honey inside the Yeah, that's one of the things that I use to differentiate slick honey from something else.
Host: Josh:So here's what I don't know. Using the Motora X example, and maybe it's like kind of like a standard bike grease, like that park stuff that you have right there, which I have at the house as well. And this thicker, I think it's a lithium based white. Yeah. Like where do I use the bike grease and where do I use the lithium grease?
Host: Dane:So you know you. You are God the most consumer consumer I've ever talked to. Like like you just you see some guy in a field dealing a bike. I don't know any better, man. You're like, I don't know. What grease is he using? Because it must be the best. And I'm like, no, he's probably using it because they gave it to him. I know.
Host: Josh:Listen, I'm a strategist. I know they sponsored him. I know.
Host: Dane:It's the applicator you feed into it hard.
Host: Josh:Okay, okay, okay.
Host: Dane:Is Motorex bad stuff? So let me explain though the dynamic between us because one of the reasons I think people like these is that you're smart and I'm an idiot. No, no, it's not. Actually, in fact, I have to like I have to be careful sometimes because I am cheap. I'm genuinely a cheap person. I don't like to spend money just to spend money. I really want value. I'm I'm very oriented. And sometimes I have to remember that it's not my wallet making the decision. It's like I'm cheap too. So if you tell me that I don't need to buy Motor X, I won't. You think you're cheap. You're cheap, like you you are willing, like here's it, here's what it is. Oh, okay. This is coming out. This is coming out right now.
Host: Josh:Fuck.
Host: Dane:You are willing to sacrifice your own performance to save money, but you are not willing. You are very willing to spend money on something thinking that it will get you performance. Like like I you That's the definition of the ignorance right there. So you won't you won't splurge and get XTR for yourself because you don't feel like you deserve it, and you do, but you'll go out and spend way more money on a grease that has little to no effect on your performance.
Host: Josh:Well, I no, I would just say like this I don't know any better. Yeah. So you're the fucking expert, bro. So educate me, man. Like what grease do I not need to buy motor racks? Like, what should I be buying?
Host: Dane:So you know, I for me, I've always said the same thing with our mechanics, with everybody, understanding what that product is meant for, does, and how it reacts with stuff is the value that you need to have.
Host: Josh:Okay.
Host: Dane:And so if Joe Schmoe, who looks pretty and makes a nice bike, uses this product, if he uses that, that's great as long as that product is proper for that. And then you keep in mind that that product may be there because it's product placement. Literally. Yeah.
Host: Josh:I knew by the way, I knew that just for the record.
Host: Dane:I knew that it was product placement. Yeah, but um, and I have no problem with Motorex, they make awesome stuff. Uh if I get park grease, there's gonna be somebody out there who's like, Park grease is trash. I would never use that. Uh you know, when I'm putting it on a bolt and it just needs to make that bolt move through the threads and get to a certain torque, I don't need to get bougie with my grease, you know. If I'm buying- So is Motorex bougie grease? It's not necessarily bougie, but I don't I I've had mechanics who will come in to work and they're like, you need to have this grease. And I'm like, eh, do I? You know, you're building a $300 comfort bike. Should I go to Harbor Freight and get some grease? Like, well, so here I'll give you an example. I have uh bearing grease at my home, you know, for packing bearings in my um trailer, in my trailer wheels, which I go and pack those bearings and keep those bearings cool. That's its job. It's super thick and super sticky, so that when you drive in the rain and you go through puddles, it doesn't come out. Right. It's I know its function. It's god awful smelling, it smells so petroleum and is nasty, you know. I won't put it on a bike because I don't like the smell. You know, packing that stuff in a bearing and a bike, I do understand that it is so uh I I maybe use a viscous. Is it is viscous the the sticky? I'm not sure I understand that. Is the stickier less vis? Yeah, I think it's viscous. It's so viscous that it can actually cause uh drag. Yes.
Host: Josh:And so you don't want that in a bicycle.
Host: Dane:You don't, and so you are balancing that. Yep. But you don't want the the slick honey in your bearings because it will wash out so much easier. So there's a point where you figure out what is the best use. And so there was this uh I can't remember who made it, rock and roll may have may have made it that this kind of web grease that was really cool. You'd stick your finger in it, you'd pull your finger out, and it would have this long stringy web. Now I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. I have a really dirty comment to make, but I'm just gonna leave that alone. Keep going. But people got really into this grease because the marketing people were like, check out this web. And I'm like, what is the web doing? Like I is it making it adding to the performance? Yeah, is the bearing working better? Like, is you know, what is it? And and and people sometimes get really, really, really caught up in the smallest details that don't matter too much. If I'm buying, I I I use Maxima grease in suspension. Uh they have a waterproof grease, it's good stuff. I think one of my suppliers for suspension was using it, and so I just picked it. I didn't really But isn't Maxima kind of bougie? It's uh it absolutely. And and I don't use the part grease because it's a little more bougie, but it's also uh a little more waterproof, and I use it in a way that's different. So like I use it for a lot of the non-moving parts uh to seal in air and to seal it.
Host: Josh:So you haven't convinced me that I'm wrong on the motorex yet. You're not wrong. You're not wrong.
Host: Dane:What I'm saying though is getting really, really caught up in the differences is sometimes point of diminishing returns. Like good grease is good grease as long as you're using it properly. And when we were talking about creeks and stuff, you know, an example, an extreme example of somebody not understanding is I've taken a bike and its headset's not functioning correctly. I pull it apart and it's full of friction paste. Friction paste, not kidding. And and this was an open ball bearing. Um bearing balls.
Host: Josh:Someone put friction paste in there?
Host: Dane:Yeah. So just for people who maybe don't hear these terms, open ball means that the balls are open. I guess that's self-explanatory. Um but you have to kind of put grease in and kind of pack them in. And they that's a different system than a lot of bikes have what's called sealed bearing. And sealed bearings, the bearings themselves have uh like seals over them that keep the grease that came from the factory in there. Open ball, you have to pack them. They often come in dry and you have to put grease in them. Somebody had put, you know, not not at the bike shop, but a consumer, had put uh friction paste. Friction paste comes in a tub, it's sitting right next to our other ones. It looks just like the same thing. We use a little Oh, it's clear, right? Well, it it depends on the brand. Um, but what it is is it's a transfer solution which is kind of grease-like with usually some sort of media. Yeah. And that media in most cases is kind of a like a little tiny plastic balls. Super tiny. And if you rub it between your fingers, it feels almost like sandpaper. And what this stuff does is those little balls create more pressure and can tighten and hold something from slipping. And it's used primarily in carbon fiber and and interfaces that tend to have a smooth surface and you don't want them to move. It's not a lubrication. Uh the the transfer solution is kind of like a lubrication, but it would be di defeat the purpose to put something that makes things move easier in a carbon bar that you're trying to not get slip, you know.
Host: Josh:So I've got I've made the mistake of putting this stuff on my fingers and now I've You need a rag.
Host: Dane:There's a rag right there. I got one. Yeah. Um, so so you know, in that case, you know, that is a clear situation where you did not know what you were doing. If you get Maxima Grease or Motorex or Park and you're um putting it in, you know, your headset bearing, your cartridge headset bearing to keep the two metals from making noise when it creaks, they're all gonna work. It doesn't matter. You can get the one that smells the best.
Host: Josh:You can get the one that you know you haven't answered my fucking question from the beginning.
Host: Dane:Wait, what was when do I use the white grease and when do I use the clear grease? That's what I'm saying is some companies really try and get you to buy three things. And sometimes those things. Well, you want to make sure I still buy slick honey.
Host: Josh:Yeah, and I use it differently than slick honey, I got it, because that's a low that's a super low viscosity. Yeah. But this thick so so okay, when I watch G. Miller, here's I see him using the thicker grease, the white grease for Motorex. Yeah. And I don't think he's using Motorex anymore, by the way, just for the records. It probably somebody else pays them differently. Somebody else is paying them different. So I see him using that on like the headsets.
Host: Dane:Yeah. So things that don't have a lot of rotation. There you go. So that is a surface lubrication. And so, and then in most cases, those lubes are fairly waterproof. Okay. So, like that maximum I use is that. That maxima that I use for those surface surface lubrication is not good in bearings. It's not light enough.
Host: Josh:Okay.
Host: Dane:And so then you're gonna use a different lube in in bearings to reduce the friction, but you don't want to use slick honey because it'll flow away too easy, especially under heat. And so you may pick a bearing grease. Now, can I use park in the headset? Yeah. Can I use park in the bearings? Yeah, it actually works there. What I look at is like this one grease covers a wide range. So basically, just buy park grease well and slick honey for suspension products.
Host: Josh:Well, you you the point carbon and I'm looking at your your shop right here, and what you have is park grease, slick honey, and a carbon. Yeah, what do you transfer? You call it.
Host: Dane:That just means that the stuff that holds a little BBs. So that's what you guys are using. Yeah, yeah. And and we have now I have like for DT hubs, I have a special grease. They call it DT special. Oh, for Christ's sakes. And they've formulated it to work the best. Now, if I'm at a race and I don't have that, I'll probably put slick honey in there and I'll tell the guy, hey, this is gonna be fine. You're gonna be faster, but you're gonna need to service us when you get done with the race.
Host: Josh:Okay, I got I gotta ask you uh like a non-bike related question. Do you have to get home early tonight? No. Because I'm gonna hunt that fucking cricket when we get done with this podcast. Because that cricket's gonna, if uh hopefully this audio sounds awesome.
Host: Dane:Every once in a while we'll get a gecko in here, and I'm like super happy because I know he's he's still that cricket is gonna die. Yeah. So I'm gonna get that cricket because I can't even hear it.
Host: Josh:He's causing me like hours of work to take that cricket sound out of it.
Host: Dane:For our listener's sake, I have tinnitus. You can't hear the cricket. So I can't hear it. Oh my god. Because I have that ringing all the time.
Host: Josh:It is the most annoying thing.
Host: Dane:It's probably why creeks don't bug me as much as other people.
Host: Josh:Okay, let's get back to the creeks. Yeah. And we're 40 minutes in, bro. I told you. I don't think we're gonna get all of the first questions with the grease.
Host: Dane:It's important, man. Grease is important. It's not as important as a marketing department has made you feel. So, yes, you can get a better grease for each application. Okay. You don't need to stress.
Host: Josh:I have part grease, I have slick honey, I have the transfer solution. Those are the three they call that uh fiber grip or fiber grip or carbon assembly or carbon paste is how what I know about.
Host: Dane:Yeah, yeah. So those are the three key elements. Those are what we use the most. We have something to quiet those metal surfaces or or surfaces, we have something that can go in the bearings, and park does both those jobs pretty good.
Host: Josh:Yeah.
Host: Dane:So we don't need to have two separate things. Okay, so just just for the listeners. And then slick honey will use uh slick honey gets used a lot in hubs, to tell you the truth. We use it in a lot of hubs. That makes sense.
Host: Josh:Yeah. Okay, so just you know, for our listeners in the guru bike service department, which is where we're at right now. Yeah. Finish line, carbon paste, slick honey, and the basic park grease is what is what is what is what they use.
Host: Dane:I well, and don't sh sell us short. We have a drawer each each item that we work on, if it if there is a special grease that we need to have it, we have You just fucking told me I don't need special grease, and now you're saying you do. Sometimes I I'll I'll give you an example. Mavic Mavic um had a free hub body system for a long time that used a bushing instead of a bearing. They had one bearing on the outside and the inside was a bushing. And Mavic really had uh they wanted you to use an oil. In fact, a lot of times in a race situation, you don't have all the special stuff and you have to make something work. And the Mavic race mechanics would use Shimano mineral oil that's in their brakes, and they would use that to lube those hubs. And if you put a grease in that hub, it would mess it up, it would not work right. And so there's a certain circumstances where it is important we at this shop, because we're pro-level, we will pay attention to that, but we don't geek out too bad. And we, you know, if if I'm building a huffy or rebuilding a huffy bottom bracket, I'm gonna use park because it's cheaper.
Host: Josh:But I gotta imagine that our our listeners, for the most part, with uh with a few exceptions, are not like rebuilding hubs, are not redoing their own suspension.
Host: Dane:They are honestly. I you know for fuck's sake. I honestly I'm an idiot. I'm an idiot then. Well, uh, you're not, you're not, but so much is available and people can do so much on their own. And one of the things that I think makes this format like us talking about these bike shop secrets, is the amount of people out there that are like, ooh, this will help me maintain my.
Host: Josh:We've been like, yeah, we've been like, don't buy Motor X, don't buy the special shit. Nope, that's not true. All you need is D3, unless you have one of these 757 specific circumstances, then you gotta use Shimano Mineral Oil.
Host: Dane:No, that's what you said. I've said, don't stress out like Josh. I'm getting the perfect I'm gonna have a fucking heart attack over here or the right lubricant to use. Try and get an appropriate grease for how you're gonna use it if you're if you're gonna do that. And I'd say this applies to bike maintenance and your sex life. And the amount of people maybe and the amount of customers I've had come in with like a pile full of parts in a rag that have like I don't know what to do at this point. And the that smell of that bearing grease that I told you about that I have for my axle bearings, yeah, is like all over it. And I'm like, oh yeah, you were trying.
Host: Josh:Yeah, you know, again, let me apologize to Chris Croto for every time I bring in a pile of parts. And the only reason I don't bring into guru, by the way, is you're 45 minutes from my house. Five minutes. He's fantastic. He's awesome. Mechanic. Okay, let's get back to the let's get back to the creeks. So the single question.
Host: Dane:So the the troubleshooting creeks is the hardest part. Finding it is the hardest part.
Host: Josh:I got I got more. Let me let me keep going, man. Let me keep going. So I talked about the the tires and the making for the hubs. Next thing I move to is the seat. Yeah. Because very frequently, it's literally like the collar, not the collar, but the seat connection to the rails. What's that called?
Host: Dane:Yeah, the rails. Rail seat connection. The rail seat connection. Those metal rails go usually into a plastic pocket.
Host: Josh:Yeah.
Host: Dane:And a lot of times they can develop a creak. Um, sometimes you can just drop a little lube in there and can't you sometimes just tighten it? Um, well, when we're talking about the rails of the saddle. Yeah. This is what I do is tighten it. I'm learning now that this might not be the right thing. Keep going. So we may not be talking about the same thing. Uh, we're talking about the rails of the saddle interfacing with the actual plastic part of the saddle.
Host: Josh:No, I'm talking about the rails interfacing with the seatpost.
Host: Dane:Yes, absolutely. So in in our case, if we find it's there, we usually pull it apart, grease everything, torque it, torque it, and put it back together, and that usually will take care of it. But the really annoying one is that saddle rail where it goes into the plastic can squeak. And then every time your hips shave change, you know, shift while you're pedaling, you get this, you know, and it drives people insane, and they've already done all the greasing of the bolts and and stuff, and it ends up being the saddle, and sometimes you can fix it with a little bit of lube in those little pockets. Um, sometimes it doesn't work.
Host: Josh:So the next thing I'll do after the seat is go to the pedals, and I will make sure the pedals are not and maybe it's because of the pet kind of pedals I use, but oftentimes they'll develop play where the pedals will start to like so that what I'm hearing from you is that you just randomly start messing with the bike.
Host: Dane:You don't listen to it and kind of try and No, no, no, no. So obviously I try and narrow it down with the sound.
Host: Josh:I try to narrow it down with the sound first. So like I will pedal. Do I hear it when I'm pedaling? Yes. Perfect. Holy shit. Yeah. I've got one thing right tonight.
Host: Dane:Well, but you're you're you're helping me think about um w what we do to troubleshoot or or diagnose. Yeah. Um, so one is does the sound only show up when you're pedaling? Right. Yeah. That is stuff.
Host: Josh:I'll stop pedaling and then just like kind of bounce on the bike. Yep. I'll do it standing first. Do I hear it? Do I hear it when I'm pedaling? Do I hear it when I'm okay? Yes, I hear it when I'm pedaling.
Host: Dane:And you can do this on the trail while you're on the trail. Yeah.
Host: Josh:Then I stand up and I'm like, okay, do I hear it when I'm standing up and just like not pedaling, but like bouncing the bike? Yep. And then the second thing I do is sit down. And do I hear it when I'm sitting down and not pedaling? And all those things kind of help help me narrow it down to like where it might be.
Host: Dane:Yeah, the the other thing is you can start to do things like, is it in only one gear? Is it in all the gears? Yes. Is it rhythmic with your pedal? Or is it you can pedal a couple times and then it comes around and then a couple more times and it comes around? Because that could be that could tell you that it's not the crank, maybe it's in the chain. Um, so and then, yeah, so these are all things you can do on the bike, which are really handy. And and in fact, we ask our customers sometimes when we're chasing down creeks, and we, you know, it's very common somebody comes in and goes, Yeah, I got this creek, I need you help with. Okay, no problem. What where's it at? Well, it's right around the the bottom bracket area, but it only comes 20 miles into the ride. We're like, uh okay, I can't take it for a 20-mile ride.
Host: Josh:You could.
Host: Dane:You could if you were like a pro-level bike shop. There is times when I have done that. There are times when I'm chasing a creek where I've driven to like a hill to try and simulate what the customer is having.
Host: Josh:And when you're complaining about the prices at your bike shop, remember this episode, right?
Host: Dane:And and uh there are times when we've I've taken it to the trail uh because they just we cannot duplicate it in the parking lot. And that does happen. And so when you're on the bike and it's happening, you're registering things and going through these things, like basically trying to figure out does it happen in every gear? Does it happen only when you pedal, when you don't pedal, when you're standing, when you're sitting, when you're turning, you know, only when it's going through a rough compression or not. You know, those are things that really help the bike shop figure out, kind of narrow it down. Listening, you know, it seems like it's coming from the back. Sometimes it'll be in the front, and and there's nothing you can do about it. It still sounds like it's coming from the back, or vice versa, because it'll vibrate through the frame.
Host: Josh:Yeah.
Host: Dane:Um, and then the other thing if I could give anyone advice if they're gonna go into a bike shop, be careful uh not to go in and say, I need a new bottom bracket, it mines creaking. And I will tell you that you you want to help that bike shop know what the problem is, but don't assign it to something because sometimes mechanics will just go, he said new bottom bracket, and then they'll just put a bottom bracket in. And then if your creek didn't go away, you're in a in a tight spot. Yeah, you know. Well, you got a new bottom bracket and you still have a creek. And I've had that happen to me at automotive shops where I'm like, I got a death wobble, I think it's a tie rod, I get the truck back with the new tie rod. Still got that death wobble. And I'm like, shit, I should have said, can you fix the death wobble and then let them figure it out.
Host: Josh:That's a good that's good advice for any, I guess anything, anyone that's taken anything to a mechanic. Like, here's the symptoms. Yep, yeah. You help me figure out you're the expert, you help me figure out what this what the solution is.
Host: Dane:The other thing that happens in the bike shop that um a lot of customers don't realize or don't really, you know, it's kind of the um doctor effect that you just you watch so many shows where the doctors just figure it out and fix the person that you think that's how it happens and and it doesn't By the way, there's trial and error in doctors too. Yeah. And very often creaks are very difficult to find, and sometimes you'll have three of them, and we can fix one of them, and then maybe not hear the other one that you heard on the trail. So if you get frustrated because that happens, work with the mechanic and let them know. Do those small little troubleshooting things on the trail to kind of identify the symptoms.
Host: Josh:So the things that I just said pedaling while sitting, pedaling while standing, just kind of like going downhill and like susp like cycling the suspension while standing, heart compressions and then cycling the suspension while sitting, and then notating when do you hear that. Yep. Is there anything other than those kind of like four different use cases that that they can do to help you?
Host: Dane:Those are a lot of the the ones. Though, like I said, one of the big things that we hear come from the back end of the bike is often like an axle or something. Uh you can sometimes have your your through axle tight, but you may actually have a broken axle in the bike. And I know that I just said your axle was tight. Inside the hub is one axle, which the through axle goes through, and so you can tighten your through axle, but that uh hub axle can actually have a crack or be broken. And so you've checked your hub, but it's still creaking. And so sometimes we will grab the rear wheel and the seat post and we will kind of just torque it side to side and try and develop that that noise. All those little things that we're trying to do to try and get that noise to come out in an in the environment that we're at, because sometimes noises don't come out in the parking lot, and and that is the worst because then we're chasing a phantom. We don't even know what it sounds like, and we're trying to figure out what it is. And those are the hardest ones because then you start throwing parts at it, and that can be really frustrating and expensive. And um, in in our shop, we teach a philosophy of trying to do the smallest things first, so the least expensive things first. Yeah. Well, uh a good example is if you're can't get it quite and you the bottom bracket is intrusive. You gotta pull the cranks, then you feel the bottom bracket and somehow can determine whether or not it's making noises by how smooth it is. It's not always the case. And sometimes the bottom bracket bearings are fine, but the cup itself is making the noise, and it's very hard to figure out. But the first thing you can do is swap the pedals to a set of test ride pedals and go ride it. Because a lot of times it can be the pedals.
Host: Josh:That's why I said I go to pedals next, and you're like, you just do fucking random stuff.
Host: Dane:And I was right. You weren't looking for where the noise is. I was, you know, you went I I skipped that whole preamble. You kind of want to narrow it down where the area is. Yeah. Um, we've had creaks that are in the person's shoe.
Host: Josh:Yes, I've seen that too in your green.
Host: Dane:The mechanic is going nuts trying to hear this noise, never hears it. The guy picks the bike up, says the mechanic's like, I can't hear it. It's you know, I'm it's fine. And the guy goes out immediately, has a creak and is mad at the mechanic. And the mechanic didn't have any way to have the shoes. Yeah. And so that can happen. And so we teach, you know, you can swap the pedals, there's it's five minutes, and it's super easy to do and do a test ride. Did the noise go away? You know, if that did, you know it's the pedals. Yeah. Before we start telling customers they need parts, we do everything we can to not need parts. And so let's say a bike is uh, you know, we think it's in the rear wheel, you know, but we don't know. And before I go disassembling everything, maybe I'll take a wheel off of a floor bike and put it on that bike and go ride it. Did the did the noise go away? I can kind of narrow down that it if it went away, it was probably in the wheel, and then I need to focus my attention there, even though the guy came in and says my bottom bracket's making a creak.
Host: Josh:Alright, let me ask you some questions. Can it ever be in the drivetrain?
Host: Dane:Absolutely. Like it can be everywhere, and that is.
Host: Josh:Well, let me okay, so like when it's in the drivetrain, what I found is that the rear-der mount into the frame is loose.
Host: Dane:Rear you mean the hanger? The hanger. Yeah. Yeah. I had a bike that I serviced every pivot on that bike, and it still had a creek, and then I found it was the hanger needed to be greased. And it was like the easiest job, and I had spent all this time. And it was my own bike, you know. Right? Perfect. And um, and it it's so frustrating, and that definitely happens. The the easy ones sometimes take so much time. The other thing that you have to remember in the bike shop is that this is time consuming, and so there is a charge for that. And even if you might find it fast, but it might take you six hours. Yeah, and and the bike shops struggle. Like, I every bike shop I've ever been at, as an employee, as an owner, as a whatever, you name it, we have never been like, oh, I I can't wait to charge for this. We don't like charging. I know that sounds weird. Uh, but we don't actually like charging for a lot of the stuff. We want to make it quick and easy, we want to make it efficient. So, how do you charge for a creek? Is it diagnostic? Is it time? Is it it's it's it's you guys have a creek price? Yeah, that well, we do actually. And and and it varies from bike shop to bike shop and their history and their frustration level with creeks.
Host: Josh:Yeah.
Host: Dane:Um, you know, if our frustration level, when we when we see the bike, if we do a couple quick things, troubleshooting, and we can kind of identify the area pretty quick, we tend to have like base level prices because we kind of pretty sure what it is.
Host: Josh:Could be one of these three things.
Host: Dane:Yeah, like you know, I it's in the bottom bracket area. I'm gonna pull your crank, tighten, or or check your bearings, and I'm gonna maybe check your chain ring to crank interface. Sometimes that can make a noise. Um I'm gonna look for anything that that is obvious, put it back together with grease. So I'm gonna charge you for that that labor, and then I'm gonna test ride it. And if that test ride has fixed it because it just needed a little love, then you're golden. But if it's still there, then I'm gonna go deeper, and then I may suggest you get a bottom bracket because it could be the bottom bracket needs to be replaced. And on some bikes, you can pull the bottom bracket out of the bike, grease threads, and put it back in, and not have to to get a new bottom bracket. Other bikes, uh, press fit in in most cases, are very difficult sometimes to remove intact. And so sometimes you are pounding them out of the bike.
Host: Josh:Yeah, when you remove them, if they've got a plastic shell, there's a good chance that they could get damaged. You're gonna have to put a new one in.
Host: Dane:Or even if you're using a tool that's designed to pull them out, maybe putting a lot of pressure on the bearing. And so sometimes you just can't save that bearing. Yep. And so then the customer is getting a new bearing and they're paying for it, and it may not have fixed the creek. And that's the those are the hardest choices.
Host: Josh:And do you call them and tell them, like, hey, listen, yeah, yeah, we gotta replace this bottom bracket. We're not sure this is gonna fix it. But yeah, that's the whether we whether we fix it or not, you're gonna have to pay for the bottom bracket.
Host: Dane:Yeah, and those are the hard conversations because some of our customers are like, I don't care, do whatever you need to do. Fix the fucking creek. Yeah, and they're they're like, I that that's fine. They trust us, they've had experience and they've they've we've built that trust. Other customers don't know and have a distrust or a natural distrust of mechanics, which definitely So this isn't like it's never, at least not with guru bikes, that you're screwing them. No.
Host: Josh:It's always that this is a hard fucking problem.
Host: Dane:I would say if you if you actually looked at the time the mechanic spends on a creek what we charge, you're probably losing money. We lose money. Yeah. It's almost always.
Host: Josh:Um the And as a strategist, I'm gonna tell you to adjust your pricing.
Host: Dane:Well, the the problem is, you know, creeks are not everything that that customer is gonna need through their lifetime.
Host: Josh:And yeah, so you you lose a little on the creek.
Host: Dane:We invest a little makeup in the red relationship. We try to, yeah. And and most of our customers, we've developed a relationship where we talk to them and we let them know what's going on, and we involve them in what we're doing so that they don't feel um, you know, like it's a mystery. And that way they can empathize with the time we're spending, and they also know that we're not trying to just you know make a quick butt about.
Host: Josh:Okay, more questions. Okay, can it also be in the braking system?
Host: Dane:Yeah, absolutely. So uh you can have loose rotor bolts, you can have a center lock rotor uh that's loose, you can have um caliper issues, uh, you can have you know sometimes when you put the brakes on, it will activate the suspension. And so it can actually be a suspension pivot or or bearing, but it only comes up when you put the brakes on. When you put the brakes on. Yeah. And so the you know, also when you put the brake on on the front, you may hear a creak, but it may be be your headset. You know? And and so Jesus, man. I know I it I told you this is the hardest thing in the bike shop.
Host: Josh:I was when when we had this list of like 10 questions, I'm like, we might only get through the first one, and guess what?
Host: Dane:Yeah, we're only getting through the first one today. Creeks are I so the the our worst case scenario is we have to let a customer know that it's a shop rate. And shop rate is when you just hourly. Yeah, well, you tell the customer this is how much we charge per hour, and if it takes me one hour, you get charged that. If it takes me two hours, it you get double that, you know. And um we don't like that because it's such a mystery to the customer.
Host: Josh:Um, is this gonna be one hour?
Host: Dane:I don't know, six hours or ten dollars for a creek. And so but it's not a thousand dollars. No, no, but sometimes the customer will jump to like the wrong conclusion if you say shop rate. And so we do a lot of we use our experience and knowledge to kind of help narrow it down and try and try and help them. We also sometimes will say, hey, we don't know how long this is going to take. This is our shop rate. This is what we charge. At what point do you want me to give up? Because there are times when there is a creek that we just can't find.
Host: Josh:And they're like, listen, I've got X number of dollars budgeted for this solution. Yeah. If you get above 400 bucks, stop.
Host: Dane:Yeah. We've had um we've had a bike come in and it had a creek, and the guy had the suspension done. He put different wheels on it, he had all the bearings done. Like he could not find the creek. And did he light the bike on fire? He bought a new bike. I'm not kidding. He literally bought it. He lit the bike on fire. And we the whole way we we were there for him to try and help figure this out. Yeah. But it was so frustrating. He never figured the creek out. We uh that you know what that bike is in my garage. I I bought it from him.
Host: Josh:I'm not even kidding. I'm gonna give it, I'm giving Dane a fist bump over here. We're looking after his customers.
Host: Dane:Well, and I'm still gonna I'm still gonna go after that bike.
Host: Josh:By the way, what kind of what kind of bike is it? Can I get a good deal? Is it an extra large?
Host: Dane:It's not. It's a Fazari, and I would say what size is it? A medium. Let's talk. Yeah, yeah. I'll make you a screaming deal. I'll take it. You may have a creek. Yeah. It's just what what can it be in the wheels? Anywhere. It can be spokes. We've had a creek. Yeah. No, but it can be in your hub. It can be in your so Mavic had this issue, and this is no joke. Uh there's a slug. When they bring the aluminum around and weld it together in the hoop, they often will pin it together. I've heard this. And there's a little piece of metal in there that when they pin it kind of supports it from so they don't dent it. Yes. And then they go weld it and then machine it. That slug would come loose. I've heard that. So so Croto had to fix one of those in one of my wheels. It's hilarious. And it'll make this tick noise. Yes. And it's like, what the hell is that? Tick, tick. Oh, it'll drive tick. Oh my god. Now see, now that's a clear example where the mechanics experience can skip the line. We can go, I know what that is. By the way. Yeah. And then uh we stick a little expanding foam in there, or you drop some gorilla glue or whatever it is to get that slug not to move. Yep. And uh you just get it to not move. Uh in fact, there was a time when you Mavic would tell us to use a punch.
Host: Josh:And I think that's what Croto did with mine is he punched it to like kind of re- to re-tension that slug. Yes.
Host: Dane:We didn't do that because uh we we saw it come loose again. So and and you know, who knows? I I'm sure a million people have great luck with that. We just found that we didn't, and so we found a different way. We actually used expanding phone, it worked really good. Um, but uh the that will drive a new mechanic that didn't go through that decade of working on that bike, and they're gonna go insane trying to figure that thing, you know, because Mavic's barely an entity anymore, and getting somebody to give you advice about it is hard. You know, you need a mechanic that uh has experience. So so yeah, there's there's a lot of stuff.
Host: Josh:So we're so we're over an hour.
Host: Dane:Yeah.
Host: Josh:Let me ask you one it's creek related, okay, but it's not related to your bike, not related to your shoes. My knees. It's not your knees, although I know your knees are creaking. Oh god, yeah. They just pop. I'm really interested in what you say, because Pink Bike's got a theory on this, or at least one of them does. Okay. What about the creek in your full face fox helmet? Oh god. I don't use fox helmets. Um have you do you know what I'm talking about?
Host: Dane:Well, yeah. So when you like turn your head and it's like I don't have that issue. Um remember, I'm way more tolerant of noises. Uh my helmets I have a hundred percent, I have Pac, and then I have Jiro. And those are all I I don't have anything that does that. But usually that's in most cases, there's levels of foam and plastic, and something's moving against it.
Host: Josh:Because I'm like I I don't know what's the right way to say this. Consumer focused. I go to the the what's it uh Vermont Technology helmet testing. Yeah. I look at their top ten. Is it Virginia? Virginia Tech Virginia Tech. Virginia Tech helmet testing. I look at the top ten helmets that they've rated, and I pick one of those for whatever discipline I'm doing. Yep. This is why I have the helmet every helmet I have is on that list. That's why I have them.
Host: Dane:And that's not a bad, that's a uh uh that I call it skip the line. You're not doing a deep research on every single brand. No, you're just looking at a metric that makes that's important to you and that safety.
Host: Josh:So what Dario says from Pink Bike, you know, I gotta quote him, is that he just puts olive oil inside the helmet. Oh, okay, and that solves the helmet creak sound. Huh. I've never done it. I'm gonna try it. Does yours creak? Mine creaks like a motherfucker. I've got the Fox like top of the line pro downhill helmet. I want to try your helmet on next time at your house. I want to see. Well, my head's much bigger than yours.
Host: Dane:Uh there's a lot of me that's much bigger than yours. Well, yeah, but one thing that's not. Um but yeah, your feet are huge. Big, not baby feet. Uh uh. But um, I I I don't know if I've I'll have now I'm gonna stick my helmet on. I'm gonna get home, stick my helmet on the shit. Just go like this, shake in it. Just shake your head, and if you hear that's what my it drives me crazy. I definitely don't hear anything that drives me nuts. But you have tinnitus, so you may not hear it. Yeah, and and my hut my helmets hug my head quite a bit. Like I do too. A lot of times I think when I get a new one that I have the wrong size because it's not quite tight, but pretty.
Host: Josh:Bang it down.
Host: Dane:Yeah, and the guy from Cool Running. As soon as that foam kind of breaks in, it's pretty comfortable at that point. But uh when we're fitting new helmets to people, we have to warn them hey, it's gonna feel like full face helmet's gonna feel tight. It's gonna squish your cheeks, squish your ears. Yeah, you don't want a lot of space because you don't want that slamming into you when you crash.
Host: Josh:All right. Well, I'm super stoked that we got through one question of twenty.
Host: Dane:But I kind of figured this was gonna be.
Host: Josh:No, but the listeners like this bike shop stuff. So keep telling us if you like this, we'll keep doing this. Yep. I'm I'm a little dissatisfied that we didn't have a very clear, like concise answer to what grease you should get. Not what grease, but like how to fix a creek. Oh, fuck it.
Host: Dane:But I think it's a topic that it doesn't exist, right? It doesn't. You talk to any bike shop and they every mechanic winces if you say you've got a creek. Like they'll you'll see them get it. Sometimes it's a visual tick that they will develop.
Host: Josh:I just want to Dr. Croto, I apologize for every in and by the way, Friday, I'm coming by to see Dr.
Host: Dane:Croto, and I'm gonna drop off my epic, it's got a creek. You know what I'm gonna do uh I'm on my my YouTube journey is I'm gonna put in how to fix a creek in YouTube and see how much bullshit comes up.
Host: Josh:Well, there's gonna be some great, very concise like workflows, and you're gonna be like, God damn it, we should have said that.
Host: Dane:Well, and that's the thing is like they've probably sat down and and and and what about scripted and scripted.
Host: Josh:And I didn't even tell you what this question was before we started.
Host: Dane:Yeah. But uh, but yeah, it's not as easy as they make it sound. All right, brother. You got any final thoughts for our listeners? If you have a creek, um, maybe use some headphones. We've told that to customers. We've told that too I've done that person. I've done that personally. I'm not even kidding. Like, maybe you should get it's cheaper. All right, Dan. Thank you for your knowledge, buddy. Thanks, man.
