115 - Bare Innovation's Ryan Burney on Bikes, Business, and Rim Protection

Starting a product company in the cycling industry isn't for the faint of heart—just ask Ryan Burney. After years of designing bikes at Cannondale and GT, Ryan quit his job with no safety net to launch Rim Saver and eventually Bare Innovation, his engineering consulting firm. In this episode, Ryan gets real about the economics of running a small cycling business, why he realized product companies need to "go big" to survive, and how he pivoted to consulting while still growing his tire insert brand. His story offers valuable lessons for anyone dreaming of turning their cycling passion into a business.

Ryan also shares the technical story behind Rim Saver, explaining how his dissatisfaction with foam tire inserts led him to engineer a plastic alternative that protects rims and prevents pinch flats without changing how your tire feels. From his early days interning at SRAM to designing the flex stay on the Cannondale Scalpel to building rally car wings for Subaru, Ryan's career path shows what's possible when engineering skill meets entrepreneurial drive.

Bare Innovation: https://www.bareinnovation.com/

Rim Saver: https://www.savetherims.com/

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Chapters

• 0:00 Coffee, Banter, And Guest Tease
• 2:15 Introducing Ryan And Flex-Stay Design
• 6:50 Flex-Stay Philosophy And SAG Setup
• 10:40 Ryan’s Path Into Bikes And Engineering
• 16:10 SRAM Internship: Wheels, Brakes, And Testing
• 22:30 Cannondale And GT: Two Brands, One Team
• 29:20 PON Era, Laguna Move, And Life Choices
• 34:50 Rally Cars, Cross-Industry Learning
• 40:00 From Product Startup To Engineering Firm
• 46:00 Why Contract Engineering Fits The Bike Industry
• 51:20 Do Brands Ship Too Early Or Just Innovate Fast
• 57:40 Toyota vs Ford Analogy On Iteration
• 1:00:05 Switching To Rim Saver: The Problem To Solve
• 1:04:00 How Rim Saver Works And Installs
• 1:09:30 Sizes, Weights, Valves, And Tire Feel
• 1:15:30 Pinch Flats, Sharp Impacts, And Test Data

Transcript

Host - Josh Anderson: 0:20

Good morning, my friend. How are you today? Good morning. How are you? Doing great, man. It's early. Super early.

Host - Dane Higgins: 0:26

Yeah. Yeah. I'm drinking coffee. Normally that's that's one cup. Now I'm at two, just so I can get my photo.

Host - Josh Anderson: 0:34

And my voice is about half deeper than it is. That's one of the things that Ryan Rhys are gets here. I felt sleep to your voice.

Host - Dane Higgins: 0:57

How many guys do that?

Host - Josh Anderson: 0:59

I've never had a guy too. I've never had a guy come up and tell me that, but unequal opportunity podcaster here, whatever. I have a good gadget today that ties in with our guest. Okay, uh it's it's the matter. Okay, so I think it'll work. Uh and so we'll we'll introduce Ryan in a second here, but let me go ahead and do this. Okay, so uh you know uh most of the world uses the metric system, right? Yep. And here we use, I think it's the imperial system, right? I have that right. It's in in pounds and inches and all that stuff. That's the imperial system. So what would happen if uh America you know switched from like pounds to kilograms overnight? Like what would happen?

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:40

I I I mean I know it's a joke, and I'm supposed to have a funny answer, but uh we would be better for it. Well, uh there would be mass confusion. Yeah, yeah. Like smacked a I can't remember if it was a satellite into a planet or something because they had the wrong unit. Well, yeah, I mean you could slap a planet that way. I mean, I guess if you're gonna slap a planet, it's gonna probably be with a satellite.

Host - Josh Anderson: 2:13

All right, well let's let's introduce our guest today. We've got Ryan Verney. Ryan uh let's see. Ryan's I I guess the lead engineer, the DT Fury. Yep. Uh Ryan's got an engineering consulting firm called Bear Innovation. Ryan is the guy behind RunSaver. Yep. Uh Canadale Scalpel. Canadale Scalpel. I even heard he was an intern like back in way back in the day with uh the best company. Yep, the best company. Not the best company. Um Ryan Dane and I have like a uh a battle of mono versus tram.

Host - Dane Higgins: 2:45

So I got so can we call him out and say what drivetrain do you have on your bike now?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 2:50

You're not gonna like that. Or you might both like this. So I have the worst of the worst combo where I had a GX cassette left over and a SRAM chain, and I had an XT derailler and shifter, and so that's what I'm running now. I like work you can do. Totally, yeah. I like that.

Host - Dane Higgins: 3:10

Uh it's not great, but it works. I had it. That's totally like the a what do you call it, apolitical or whatever answer, right? Right down the middle. You're just you're just yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson: 3:21

So um, Ryan, welcome. How are you doing today? Did I get anything wrong with my introduction?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 3:27

Uh thank you. Josh Jane, great to hang out with you guys. Um you did not, I so you know, I want to make sure that I worked on those projects with a lot of very smart people. So I was lead engineer on the theory, but it wasn't just me. And then on the scalpel, I just developed the flex day. So like that's only a very small part of the bike.

Host - Dane Higgins: 3:45

No, it's that that's like what defines it, and that was one of the big things. Like when I heard that, I was like, wow, this is that's what made that bike stand out, you know. And I I want to say, um, was it one of the first ones that that came out? Because you know, flex days are a thing now, you know.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 4:01

Yeah, it was uh the first flex horse link in carbon. Yeah. And then Cannondale had a full basically flex chain stay at one point on a super early generation scalpel that had like the plastic seat stays. I don't know if you remember that bike. Yeah, yeah. But this one, I think for a flex stay, very well placed because carbon is super happy in tension. Yep. And if you look at the rear triangle of that bike, it's like a wishbone. So there's a lot of mechanical leverage over the where the carbon is flexing. So for example, if you're flexing where we were flexing that rear triangle, and you push up on the rear axle and it compresses the suspension with no shock, it took about four pounds of force to go through the suspension travel. And if you were on a lot of bikes of similar travel, if you have just the seat stay flexing, it could take upwards of 30 pounds of force uh to flex that seat stay to go through the suspension travel. So, like if you're gonna put a flex day on a bike, you want to make sure it doesn't get in the way of how the suspension behaves and four pounds of force to compress the suspension. Uh pretty happy with that. I think I'd call that pretty much negligible.

Host - Dane Higgins: 5:17

Yeah. So so um I've had other bikes. Felt did a flex day, one of the first ones that I've seen that you had to we had to pull the back end of the bike down to get the rear shocks on. So that is that negative? Because it was almost like it wanted to, it actually had like, like you said, the rear stays were in tension almost to where they were trying to activate the suspension more.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 5:39

So yeah, so it depends on how you make it. So we designed that bike around SAG because we want to make sure that uh you know, at SAG, which is where you're rotting, you know, a good chunk of the time, um, there was no influence of the spring of the flex day on the suspension. Now, there are plenty of companies that might do design their flex A so that halfway through the travel, that's where the thing likes to rest. So uh, you know, on that felt, that could be an example of what's going on. And then some companies like to do uh it at just the full extension of the suspension. So you'd actually have to compress the suspension. Well, actually, no, you wouldn't have to do anything on that bike. Yeah. For the scalpel, we designed it around SAG, so you had to pull down on the rear axle a teeny tiny amount uh to get the shock in. Yeah. But you could do it with your finger.

Host - Dane Higgins: 6:29

Yeah, yeah. So not hard. That's cool. Uh the engineering of this stuff, because that came out, those designs have been out for a while, but right now it's very hot in cross country, like down country.

Host - Josh Anderson: 6:40

But I told you he was a suspension guy, and I love how we get we dive like right deep into suspension and not only that, but like Doc has just a nice list of like clear things that we can ask.

Host - Dane Higgins: 6:53

And I'm like, I just fold those pretty much a remote. All right, so that's that's my little list.

Host - Josh Anderson: 7:00

Okay. So I just want to start with like Ryan, like, how did you get into and I know you've been on other podcasts before, but for you know, all the women that listen to this podcast, you know, just so you we can that they may not have heard those other ones. Um why just the women? Oh, for the men too, I guess. Okay, yeah. I mean I just it's just uh I'm not even gonna go there's all in trouble. Um how'd you get into cycling? How'd you get into engineering? Like, like at the at the very beginning, like what what what got you uh into bikes and what got you into engineering?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 7:29

Yeah, so when I was probably 11 years old, my dad got me a little hardtailed mountain bike. We lived in New Hampshire, and so we would just ride around on the hiking trails. There weren't even mountain biking trails there at the time. And uh I remember he bought me clipless pedals right off the bat because he's like, Oh, you've got to make sure your feet stay on the pedals. Like that's what clipless pedals are for. Like, I didn't know, I just started off at 11 years old with clipless pedals like bouncing down the hill and a little hardtail. And from there, uh I got into downhill racing at 14. And the reason for that is because Highland Mountain Bike Park was about 40 minutes away. And I had heard about it, and I went and checked it out. I'm like, oh, this is cool. I'm gonna do this now. Um, and at the same time, the Eastern States Cup had been around for a minute, but like there was a race at Pat's Peak, which was also about half hour away. And so within the same year, I I had did my first downhill race uh and started to ride Highland Mountain Bike Park 14, 15 years old, and I was just all in. That's all I wanted to do. Um, and then I got into engineering because I was like, well, I really like working on my bike, and at some point I'm gonna have to go to college. Now, this is like in high school, right? Like halfway through high school. I was like, well, okay, I guess I have to go to college. Um, I should make bikes. And I guess engineers make bikes, so I'll be an engineer and I'll be a mechanical engineer because that's the best that's the best kind. And uh so I knew a lot of people from racing, and I was like, oh, okay, like what school should I go to? And I decided to go to Wentworth in Boston. Um, and so I didn't have to travel too far to get up to the races and all that. And then uh a friend of a friend uh worked at SRAM at the time, and so uh I I guess I was in college now, and like, oh, I need an internship. And so a friend of a friend worked at SRAM. I drove out there, visited the the the facility. Uh and where's it at? Where's that facility? Where's that facility at? In Colorado Springs.

Host - Dane Higgins: 9:34

Oh yeah, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson: 9:35

I was gonna say I didn't think it was close to Boston, so I was like, huh.

Host - Dane Higgins: 9:39

The main mountain bike main mountain bike testing is there, rock shock for the most part.

Host - Josh Anderson: 9:43

Okay, right on.

Host - Dane Higgins: 9:45

What year was that? So that was 2015. Trying to think it when I was there. It was after that.

Host - Josh Anderson: 9:52

Did you did you live there or you just went and visited?

Host - Dane Higgins: 9:54

No, I just went for what they called it tuner training.

Host - Josh Anderson: 9:57

Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins: 9:58

So uh they do like a two, which gives it gives you like in, you know, like basically trains you to work on rock track, but this was a little bit more for tuners, people that are doing service centers and like higher level uh learning. I really enjoyed it. I met a lot of guys, uh a lot of a lot of people working on suspension the way I do, which is way deeper than just following a manual.

Host - Josh Anderson: 10:18

I I do want to um just for our listeners and Ryan, I'm sorry that I got to bring this thing because you probably haven't heard any of this backstory, but um just an update for our listeners. My um disdain for TRAM does not include buttercots. I know you like your dev now. Not just my dev, but I've but I put that pike uh with the 3.1 and the buttercup and holy shit. Don't like the buttercup button. It's fantastic. They need to put that on every fork they make. Yeah, they couldn't sell a fork without buttercup. They shouldn't. That's basically what we think. Yeah. All right, sorry, just wanted to update that for, but uh okay, so so internship at Shram. You did 2015, 2016 time frame. Um that would have been like what your junior, senior year of college?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 11:02

Yeah, I was going into my junior year. It was right before my junior year.

Host - Josh Anderson: 11:05

Right nice. So then uh keep keep going. Tell us the rest of the story. What what happened? So, what did you do at Shram and then and then where did it go from there?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 11:12

Yeah, so I was uh engineering intern for both the mountain bike wheel and brake teams. They sat right next to each other and they were managed by the same guy. So it was like kind of convenient for me to dip in and out of the two. Uh-huh. And so that was uh when they had their roam wheels and stuff like that. Um, and then for the brakes, uh you know, I guess it was their previous gen guide brakes with the ones with the bearing. Yep. Um, that had a pretty good lever feel. Um, but yeah, I was there for five months that flew by super quick. Uh got to just like do some like entry-level engineering tests. Actually, I I designed and built a wheel impact machine at the time. Oh, that's cool. Uh yeah, funny enough. Um so and we filmed it in slow-mo and like got to watch a bunch of carbon wheels like explode. That was very fun. Um it was fun being paid to get to do that. Um and uh that's pretty much it. I got to actually be a part of two different test trips while I was there, like a full week and a half long test trip for one for the brake team uh and then one for the wheel team. So like half of a month of my time there was just like on the road and riding bikes and getting paid to do so. Um and from there I was just hooked. I'm like, yeah, this is what I want to do. Like, no problem. Like, I don't care if it's components, I don't care if it's frames. Um, I've got a taste of the component thing. I even asked them if I could come back for a second internship. I'm like, dude, you gotta get go get more experience. Like, don't just work here. I'm like, okay, fine. Um, and so I got an internship at a dental implant manufacturing company. So and I was like, I I got a taste of that.

Host - Josh Anderson: 12:49

That's quite a that's quite a different route.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 12:53

It was. Uh, and I got a taste of a life that was um fine, but it wasn't for me. And I'm like, yep, it's bikes. Um, so from racing, uh, I I knew an engineer who worked at Tannendale, and he's like, Oh, you should come intern here after you graduate college. And so I applied and it took a minute, but I I started as an engineering intern on the road team, actually. Uh and then from there, uh the guy who had recommended I come work for Tannendale, he left and went to California to work at some tech companies. And so a spot opened on the mountain engineering team. You're like, hell yeah. And yeah, so I was there for a couple months. They knew me at that point. They're like, oh, we could hire a junior engineer, and I was already there. And like, do you want to just be a junior engineer? I'm like, yeah, definitely. So I hopped right into that role, and that was kind of it. Like at the time, it was both Canadale and GT uh were in the same building, and we had one engineering team that supported both teams. Um, like are they owned by the same are they owned by the same company?

Host - Josh Anderson: 14:03

Yeah, they have been for a while.

Host - Dane Higgins: 14:04

I didn't realize that. Is that the Pond group or something? No, no. Well, uh now it is, but back then what was it? Was it Durell or Durell, yeah. Okay.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 14:13

And it was part of Cycling Sports Group, which was within Durrell, and there was a lot of companies that Durell had. Yes. Um, and that was super cool because basically uh we had this engineering team who you know we'd asked to do all these like crazy things. And if one brand didn't want to do a crazy thing, the other one usually would bite. Nice. So like imagine you work at like track or whatever. It's like you know what a track looks like, you're typically making a track mountain bike. Um and you get to like change up a couple things here and there. Um and and sweet, like learning rate's pretty good. Like, okay, we made a new bike, we learned from it. But on our team, it was really unique in that we got to make two sets of bikes at the same time. So it was like one GT Enduro bike and then one Cannondale Enduro bike, and they were both different, different.

Host - Josh Anderson: 15:02

And then we got to try different designs, different just different brand identity, the whole thing, right? That's cool.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 15:07

Yeah, yeah, different flavors of bikes, too. So like you got to kind of do everything you wanted to do, and then you get to learn from it. So, like, compared to being in a normal bike company, I'd say like the rate of learning was essentially doubled, right? Because you're making twice the number of the same bikes, just in different ways. Um, so that was super cool. Um, and then I was there for uh uh I think seven years essentially, and uh I graduated in 2016, yeah, and then Pond bought Cannondale and GT. Uh and GT w was gonna split off and go back to Southern California. And I'm like, oh, I'm in on that. Like I just finished the Fury at the time, it had just come out, people were happy with it. Um, I aligned more with I think the GT brand identity is just a little bit more of my flavor of bike. And uh got the opportunity to go and move to Laguna Beach or Liso, at Lisa Viejo. That's um that's the base. That sounds like a rough place to live. Yeah. Oh yeah. I was able to, I only was able to ride every single day. That's terrible. And but we were basically crashing on the couch of Cervello, um, because Cervello is a is another pond brand. Right. And we didn't quite have the budget yet to uh have our own office uh because like it was like the restart of GT. And so we're just downstairs in Cervello. We had some desks, and like yeah, we got I got to do that for about a year, and um from there I I I uh could kind of see the future wasn't what I had hoped it was gonna be. Yeah, and um, you know, things changed, like the bike world got hit pretty hard, yep. And that like, okay, like things aren't gonna be as easy or as fun as we thought they were going to be. Um, and the opportunity to make a bunch of cool new stuff sort of like started to seem like it was gonna go away. I'm like, ah, okay, like that's okay, but I think I gotta go do another thing. And um uh we couldn't quite afford to live in California. Uh nobody, nobody can. So like we didn't really save any money, like we spent all this money moving out there, and we're just like, okay, like we know this is limited. We could never buy a house there, it just wouldn't work. The math doesn't math on that. And and uh so we had a really good time, and but we knew we wanted to end up back in New England, and we really liked Vermont. Uh, this is my wife and I. And so I actually I quit my GT role uh before I had anything lined up, and I'm like, I'm moving to Vermont, like we're doing this, we're just gonna go. And luckily, uh I had applied to a design engineer role at Vermont Sports Car, which basically Vermont Sports Car is up here in Vermont, and they are the Subaru North America rally team. Okay. So so they make the rally cars for uh Travis Pastrana and Brendan Samanak.

Host - Josh Anderson: 18:08

Okay. Yeah, you know those names. Yeah, yeah.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 18:13

Like, oh that's a that's another objectively cool job. I'll try that. Um for sure. And so I like snuck my way into there. I use the argument of like, yeah, like a bike chassis, just like a car chassis. It just has two wheels instead of four. It's vehicle dynamics, it's engineering, and that pitch kind of worked, I guess. Um I was kind of in disbelief. I'm like, okay, like sweet. Um, I'll give this a shot, like 100%. And it was a good time. Like, they're big, expensive go-karts. That's effectively what rally cars are, it's what race cars are.

Host - Josh Anderson: 18:47

Yep.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 18:47

Um, which is awesome. And uh I could kind of talk to talk. I was mostly a bike guy, but like I grew up watching every single episode of Top Gear and every car video on YouTube. So uh I hadn't done a lot with my hands uh on cars, but like I kind of understood the the basics of so I was able to sneak in, I guess is what I'm yeah, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. And then luckily half the people there are mountain bikers, so that was also I think half of uh why I was able to kind of get in. Yeah. And that was a really good time. I was there for like eight months, and in the back of my mind this whole time, I was like, I think I might need to have my own business at some point. And uh just like this itch, I needed to scratch. And I'm like, I'll give I'll give working for someone else one more shot. And that's what the rally car company was. And uh after almost a year in, I'm like, yeah, it's time, I gotta just go for it. Like um, so while I was at the rally car company, I was just kind of chipping away at this rim saver thing, and uh, you know, I personally I was just looking for a different type of tire insert. Um, and so I just wanted something that was easy, so I didn't have to like have people complain about it. And even not even me, like I could deal with like wrestling in a push core, but I didn't want to. And then a lot I noticed that a lot of people didn't want to. I'm like, okay, what if I just make it easier? And then also I don't like the way my tire feels with a foam insert in there. Like the it changes the spring rate of the sidewall of the tire and uh and aggressively so that your tire basically gets kicked off of line when you're on the limit of grip and going through rough terrain. Like the sidewall of your tire just isn't able to gobble up the terrain, like I want it to, at least. Um, and then I saw that in the World Cup race teams too. Like they were all like, they only ran a tire insert if they absolutely had to. They didn't want to. And it was just to make it through their run, because they're like, we only have seven runs a year and we get paid money to make it down those runs. And like just because I don't like the feel of a tire insert doesn't mean I like I want to get paid still and I want to survive the run. And so they were like compromising on the like, I don't want to run a tire insert, I will though, because my job is literally on the line. I need to make it down the run. I can't just flat every other race run um by getting in a rim or whatever. And I'm like, oh, okay. So like if the racers still want a tire insert, but they want a different feel in in how their tire operates, and then I for a consumer, they want an easier to use tire insert. I'm like, oh, I think this would work. So I made that in the background, made rim saver. Um I'm like, I guess I'm gonna have a product company and started it at like a local little maker space in Burlington, Vermont. Cool. Uh and quit the Vermont sports car job with no plan on actually making money. Like, I'm like, I I I'm just gonna have to figure this out.

Host - Josh Anderson: 21:41

And then obviously your wife was supportive of all this craziness, right? She's like, yeah, let's do it.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 21:48

Yeah, yeah, luckily, because I I yeah. Um and then I'd kind of been talking to some friends who had been doing some contract engineering work. I'm like, oh, I'll just like do that every now and then, and then then I can actually pay my rent while I work on this Ren Saber thing. And uh so that went on for about a year where I'm like, okay, like I'm gonna figure out how to run a product company um in the cycling space that's teeny tiny. Uh let's just go do it. And so I did it and am still doing it, but after a year in, like I look back on what I learned and I'm like, oh, okay, with a product company, you need to go big because with product, it's typically like 20, 25% net profit. So essentially, like to simplify it, you put four dollars into this machine, which is your business, and you get five dollars out. So you get it, uh you get to keep a dollar, and then you do that over and over and over again.

Host - Josh Anderson: 22:36

Hopefully, if you've got a good business model and things are working out, you put four in and get five out. Yes, yep, yeah. Um doesn't always work out that way.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 22:45

No, no, it doesn't. And but it was like uh, okay, well, I can reverse engineer how many one dollars out I need to get in order to pay myself enough to live. Yep. And then I realized how much more volume I had to do and product in order to get there and how but mostly how long that was gonna take. And it's it's possible it just takes a while.

Host - Josh Anderson: 23:07

Yeah.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 23:08

Um and because like that 20% net profit, it just you can snowball that forward and like it compounds. And but you just it just takes, especially when you're only starting with like a small chunk of money that you put into the business, is which is what I could start with. Yeah, like you have to grow that small chunk of money, and it has to get to like, okay, like how do I like pay myself a normal salary again? Like, oh crap, that's gonna take a minute, and uh okay, I need to do something else. But then also the reality of having a small product business was setting in and that like the day-to-day wasn't just making new stuff all the time. And uh and feel free to talk. I'm I apologize for you. No, no, no, please go. You're you're going.

Host - Josh Anderson: 23:46

I got a I got a yeah, don't I I got a bunch of questions? We got a ton of questions, but I but you're on a you're on a roll, man. So just keep flowing, bro. It's working. So what brought you up to where you're at now? Yeah, keep going.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 23:57

Yeah. So I was like, okay, I I I need to be able to pay the bills. Like uh my runway was running out, and uh, but my I learned so much. I'm like, okay, I gotta keep working for myself. Like I this is wonderful. It's like the light. It was hard, way harder. Like life was objectively more difficult, and I had to put way more energy into it, but I I enjoyed every bit of it. Um I'm like, okay, I'm never going back. I'm just gonna have my own thing forever. And but what my own thing now needs to evolve into something where I can actually pay my bills. And I had been doing that engine contract engineering work on the side, and I'm like, oh, well, let's just like flip it and put all the attention on that. And then I had a bunch of friends who were looking for contract engineering work, and like, oh, we could all like come together and work on big projects together. And I was like, Oh, that's like that's an engineering firm. Like, let's just make an engineering firm. And so I just put out to the world, like on LinkedIn, like, hey, I have an engineering firm now. Anyone need help? And then like hold but and a couple of people reached out and they're like, Yeah, we need help. I'm like, oh, okay. So I guess we're doing this now, and that was about six, seven months ago, where it's like, okay, officially, like, I'm guess I'm making an engineering firm. And uh, so we have a bunch of projects running now with a bunch of friends, and we like tag in on the projects, and like if we need someone with a specific set of skills, we pull them in. We have some consultants who are experts in like different areas, and uh, we just work together on projects and and get them done and help help both individuals who like want to start a business and businesses who need help creating new product in the cycling space or not. Um, we just help them get that stuff done.

Host - Josh Anderson: 25:35

Yeah, what's the break? What's the breakout of so you're talking about bear innovation is your engineering firm? Do I have that right? Yep. So what like what's the distribution or what's the uh uh the breakout? How much of the work that you do is like cycling specific, and how much is in in other industries and what are those other industries?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 25:50

Yeah, so right now it's like it's 80% cycling specific, and that's just because that's who we know. Yep. Um the problem with the cycling space, it's not a problem, it's just a reality, is that there will forever just be less money in it. Um I I could rephrase that a little bit, but I guess what I mean is like if you I talk to friends who have engineering firms like outside of Boston and stuff, and like they help, you know, a medical device company create a plastic enclosure for a product. Right. And like I'm like, so what are your hourlies? And they're more than double what we could ever ask for. Yeah, yeah. Like ever asked for. And I'm like, oh, oh, that's a different game. Like, but that's fine. I like making bikes, so I'm gonna keep making bikes. Um, but I we're willing to work on anything that we find interesting. So like I went into race cars because I'm like, I think race cars are cool. I'm gonna go like help make race cars. If someone comes to us with like a cool project, whether it be a robot, uh a race car part, or just something that's neat, um, we'll help make it if we have time. Um and so we're trying to build the business out in a way where I think in a perfect world, I think half of our work will be cycling focused just because it's fun. Yeah. And that's where our expertise lies.

Host - Josh Anderson: 27:10

Um the other half will keep the lights on.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 27:14

We'll kind of you can keep the lights on in the cycling space. You can. It's just it is um, I think it'll be nice to have things be somewhat balanced out where it's like we have a lot of fun in the cycling space. We are experts in that space. We get to pick and choose what projects we work on, work on. So like only doing the ones we want. We're not just like sometimes you run into a problem where like you just have to crank out another e-bike, which is fine. But sometimes you're like, it's like not that exciting when they're just like, go get it done. And you're like, that's what that's one of the reasons I left. Uh that's what my future was going to become for GT. If I had stayed in yeah, in the bike space. It's like, hey, go like, and that's fine. Like, there's nothing wrong with that life. Um, I'm just like, oh, I think I could work on things that I'm just more interested in.

Host - Dane Higgins: 28:00

Right on. Okay. I it's I got a question I've been sitting on for a while. Go, you go. And we're gonna interrupt your flow now, right? It just popped up, and and I'm just like, okay, so you had mentioned you worked for a medical device or a dental device as an intern. And so the question that popped in my mind, and I don't know if we've ever asked anybody, because we talked to a lot of engineers. Uh how many you know, how many engineers out there actually do what they work on? Like if you ride, you raced at a World Cup level and you worked on bikes, that makes total sense to me. And I think we talked to a lot of people like that. But then you went into the dental manufacturing company, and I'm like, you're not a dentist, you know. And so it just occurred to me like, how many times do you see an engineer at maybe one of those bike places that doesn't ride? Do you ever see that? It happens every now and then.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 28:51

It's uh it's um it's tough. Like so you if someone comes from outside the cycling space and they are truly an expert in something, um, whether it be composites or just plastics or electronics. Electronics, I think, are the best example of where they can succeed in cycling. Yeah. Because a lot of mountain bike guys are like, I don't know. I don't know. Like we didn't do, we didn't make robots for fun, right? Like that's not what our background is. Yeah. Um, but a lot of other people have. And so pulling them in, like if you're a big, like, if you want to include electronics in your suspension, it's like you probably don't already have someone on the team who's really good at that.

Host - Josh Anderson: 29:32

Yeah.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 29:32

So it makes sense to pull someone from a different industry in. Um but it is if you're making the next level road bike, like the next generation, best road bike in the world, uh, you need to know every the ins and outs of how a bike works, and you need like you know, a decade at least worth of like having obsessed over the space in order for that product to succeed. To know the nuances. Yeah. Yeah. Just because there are so many nuances. Like just like, oh, like your knee hits the top tube sometimes. Or, you know, the the handlebar looks a little weird. Like all those little tiny things.

Host - Josh Anderson: 30:15

Yeah.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 30:15

Um they add up super quick. So I think if you're if you're trying to do something new in the cycling space, that's when you have to pull someone from outside of the cycling space. But if you're iterating upon what's already been done, it's often easier to keep most of the team uh as they are from the cycling space and then tag in an expert for whatever the pointy new thing you're trying to add to that product is, if that makes sense.

Host - Dane Higgins: 30:40

Yeah. And then when you were at that internship, did you feel like you were that guy that's kind of coming in without uh not biased.

Host - Josh Anderson: 30:48

You don't have you don't have a long history of bias, so you can bring fresh ideas in.

Host - Dane Higgins: 30:52

Yeah, well, not only that, but like you're going into dental, you know, you're interning there, and you're there to learn, you know, engineering techniques and methods and stuff. But uh did you go in going, what can I bring? Or did was it just what can I learn? At that point, I didn't know a lot, so it's just what can I learn? Yeah. And then when you went to the the race car, you know, the Subaru uh guys, was it was it the same thing, or was it now where you could bring something?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 31:21

I I could bring a little bit. So like I could bring um uh some expertise in carbon and then also like design engineering of like literally modeling surfaces of, for example, I worked on a track car rear wing, uh, did the surface modeling for that, worked with an aerodynamicist to basically come up with the shape of the wing and the size it needed to be and where it was going to be on the car. And like, oh, I'm good at that stuff, like that's no problem. That's just like that's similar to bike engineering. Um but I was able to design the wing and then a new way to do the tooling and a new way to do the the the way we actually created the composite wing and we made it hollow and like used some of the best practices from how you'd make a a carbon bike and applied it there. And they're like, oh, cool. But then at the same time, when I was there, I learned so much about like I didn't have all the nuance about like why you wanted to use this gearbox and how you connect it to another part of the drivetrain in a certain way for a certain reason of like, oh, you've got to be able to drop it out of the car and get it around this part of the chassis in order to be able to actually even work on it. I'm like, oh cool, I didn't know that. You know, like I was missing out. I didn't know any of that stuff. Um, it all made sense, but it was fun to be around other people who were total car experts and nerds and look into that world and be like, wow, they know so much more about this. Um, so I I was definitely able to contribute, um, but I learned so much from from having worked there. That's awesome. I hope I I think I was helpful. Um I I they say I was, um, but there were some times where I'm like, okay, like I don't quite know enough.

Host - Dane Higgins: 33:06

Yeah, that's really cool. That's one of the things about engineering. We've talked to a lot of engineers, and we really haven't touched on how often they're put into a space where they're not really familiar with it.

Host - Josh Anderson: 33:15

Yeah, for sure. Uh handful of things from from your from your monologue here, Ryan, that I want to just pick out and maybe double click in. The f the first thing from your internship with Shram, um you actually uh disproved one of my theories, and my theory was that Shram doesn't actually test their products. And you said you actually went on week-long testing events with Shram, so they do actually test the products.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 33:41

Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, I Shram's interesting in that they make so many products. Like it I'm I'm still so impressed with how that company runs. And like they are even interacting with them as like a fight company and being like, hey, like we need information about the bits that you're making and like how it interfaces with the frame, and like I would call them kind of like the apple of the cycling space. Yeah. They're just the way their business operates is in is very dialed and impressive. I think the challenge with cycling parts is like you're asking a lot of these little tiny parts that aren't going to be that expensive, and you have to make a lot of them. And so you're gonna every now and then struggle with some issues.

Host - Josh Anderson: 34:31

Yeah, and you know, you you mentioned uh, you know, we've talked about this many times, like the best way to make a million dollars in in the bike industry is to start with. Come with two. Come with two. But just to just to put some scale, maybe to help our listeners understand, like if you look at trek bikes, and I just kind of looked this up and verified some of it, I got good information here. But if you look at trek bikes, it's a big track, you know, big bicycle corporation, one of the biggest ones, and you compare it to the company I work for, we do Trek's entire revenue for a year in one week.

Host - Dane Higgins: 35:00

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson: 35:00

Yeah. In a week. We do their entire their entire yearly revenue. So it's just on a totally different scale. Yeah. The bike, even the biggest companies in the bike industry are relatively small. Yep. Yeah. It's it's still a a sport.

Host - Dane Higgins: 35:12

You know, it's still a like a uh a leisure time activity, you know, where it's like it's not a sport, it's a lifestyle project. Well, sorry. You know, uh but I mean it's just a portion, like it you can give up cycling. I hate to say that because I would never do it and never want to, but uh you could give that up and still continue on in your life. And then there's other industries where you just could not give them up, like they couldn't go away.

Host - Josh Anderson: 35:38

So like if you um Dane and I went up, I don't know, last year or whatever, and we visited Pivot. Um, they're based in Phoenix, which is kind of just north of us, and and Chris Cochallas's company up there, and we went and and kind of spent the day with them and went through their their facility. And we were shocked at the size of the engineering company, like our engineering department, like how small it was. Um, compared to like the company I work for, it's got 30,000 engineers, right? So it's like, wow, you guys are doing all this with this smaller number of engineers. Uh, and that kind of led us to get really excited about when we when we met up with Faction Bike Studio, and now we're excited about Fair Innovation. And then hearing your story about Durell and the Pond and how you guys were sharing like one engineering team that was supporting multiple product lines. I mean, it just totally makes sense. You know, put it in the in the frame that like there's not a lot of money in the bike industry. So it really an engine in an engineering department, just an engineer is a very expensive resource to like the the groups that are sharing, um, you know, like you said with the Pond Group of Drill, um, or the groups that are using outside consulting firms to help augment their internal team so they don't have to keep them on the payroll for the full year or for however long they can they can kind of buy by the drink. Um, I think it makes your your business model really interesting for this industry specifically, right? I mean, are you so you guys just got getting started, right? You said you're seven, eight months into the engineering, and it seems like you got pretty good response so far.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 37:03

Yeah, yeah. Like I think you hit the nail on the head, but the the workload flexes so much depending on what where you're at in your uh product development line and how you're moving through creating the next version of it. Like you it doesn't always make sense to have five, ten engineers on staff year round. Half the time they might be twiddling their thumbs, and that's a really expensive way to build a team. And but every now and then the work will flex in that it's like we need all the bikes made right now because the you know something changed in the market and a new e-bike needs to be created now. And um, that's kind of where we come in is we fill those gaps and we make it easy for companies to flex in size and keep their core engineering team, which you always want a core engineering team. Um, but it it is super risky to and painful when you grow that team to accommodate for the work that's about to come in, and then that work kind of dips down, and you've got to and I'm like, you know, we've all seen this in any any company, but it's very painful to have to downsize your team every couple of years. And no one likes that. It's not fun. And so we just make it easier on the bike company, but where they don't even have to worry about that. Everyone's happy, and then we just come in, take on that overflow work, get it done, they're stoked, and then we go away.

Host - Josh Anderson: 38:25

So you you talked about two different use cases where um where bicycle industry folk can come and engage with you. One was I'm a I got a new idea, I don't yet have a company, or maybe my company's really small and I want to bring something to market. The other one is I'm an established product company uh in the bike industry and I want to use you to augment my staff to help our in our listeners understand like what you guys offer. Could you give me the sales pitch to those two people? Like if I'm an if I'm if I want to I'm a new guy, I'm trying to come into the industry, what would your sales pitch be? And then if I'm if I if I'm a product manager in an existing big bicycle company, what would your sales pitch? I just kind of want to get an understanding an understanding of like what service you guys, what services and experiences you guys offer and bring to the table.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 39:09

Yeah, totally. So if you're someone who has an idea of like, I want to bring this product to life, basically we sit down with you and we we work with you to literally bring that product to life. So just design the thing, create prototypes, uh validate the that design, introduce you to a vendor, work with that vendor, um, help you literally produce the product and then get it to it wherever you want it to be, whether it be your first warehouse or whatever, and then you can start selling it. And then we can basically support you in iterating that product um into its next generation and making sure that you know if there are any issues that we can resolve them. So you're not just stuck with problems that have been created by having a new product that especially hasn't existed before. Um and then for existing bike companies, it's exactly kind of what we were talking about a second ago, where you know, okay, all of our engineers are at capacity, they're working on projects that had been planned for. A new project just got put onto the table because things have changed. And it doesn't make sense for us to hire another engineer or another couple of engineers. We need a little bit of outside help to get this project done and get it done well. That's where we tap in and we make sure that we execute on that project in a way that aligns with how your company uh likes to create product and and your product philosophy. So it looks like we weren't even there. Um it just looked like you were able to like externally, if you're looking at comp bike company A, um, oh yeah, they just like made another bike. Um you didn't even know that an outside side resource came in and helped them.

Host - Josh Anderson: 40:50

So so Ryan, do you guys offer is it do you guys have I would I obviously you guys have mechanical engineers? You said you were a mechanical engineer. How about software, electrical engineers, industrial designers? Do you guys offer those with with the uh increased use of electronics, whether it's in the shifting systems or e-bikes themselves, software and and you know, double E's I think are needed. Do you guys offer the full suite or are you guys primarily mechanical engineering? You guys do industrial design as well? Like, like what's the what's the plate look like?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 41:18

Yeah, so it's mostly mechanical engineering and industrial design. And then we have friends who collaborate with us on projects who are uh electronic and electronics engineers. Okay. Um and basically we have a lot of friends that um like for the most part our staff is remote and uh uh they're mostly consultants as well. So basically, if a customer comes to us with a very specific problem that they need to solve, um, we pull from our network.

Host - Josh Anderson: 41:49

You got a role, Rolodex of engineers that have different skills and different capabilities, and you can assemble the team, and they're all working other consulting projects, so as long as their availability matches up with your need, you can assemble the team you need at that point.

Host - Dane Higgins: 42:02

Yep, exactly. Pinch hitters.

Host - Josh Anderson: 42:04

That's awesome, man. That's that's an awesome model.

Host - Dane Higgins: 42:07

Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Okay, I got another question that popped in my head. Um, so uh I want you to help me with this one. This is kind of a myth that a lot I feel like a lot of our listeners and a lot of cyclists believe. Yeah. And and I actually believe this too, is that it it always feels like the bike industry is testing their stuff on. They they don't do as much as a tram doesn't do products. It's it's other companies. What what causes that um that feeling of like, you know, every time something new comes out, there's always bugs and the new one addresses that and it doesn't feel like they actually stuffed it out before they like they're putting they're putting products into the into the field too early? Or or almost on purpose to get us to test them and then find out what's going on. Because because you know it's hard sometimes to do fatigue testing, you know, in every situation, like a 240-pound guy versus 160-pound guy or or what have you. So like is that a myth or is there a little bit of that that just has to happen because it's just impossible to fully test something out before it goes out?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 43:15

So I think it depends on what iteration of a product type you're on. So if it's a new innovative way of doing something, if you want to have that product out there and be one of the first, there is a little bit of a roll of the dice that has to be had. Um otherwise you just fall behind. And like that's not necessarily my opinion. I just that's what I've seen. Yeah. And so, you know, on bike frames, I think are the opposite of that, where you know the bike companies that have been around for a long time are quite good now at making sure that they fully validate that their frames will last over a decade before it ever gets to market. And they'll do that fatigue testing on uh in-house machine tests that they've developed to solve those exact problems. Um, but if you have a new type of product, like a derailer with electronics in it, um you know, there might be some issues that don't arise until that thing becomes three years old in age. And you don't know what those problems are until that product gets to three years old. And uh so it's it's a balance of if you're deciding to launch a product like that, you can wait three years and then someone else will do it, and they'll be first, and then you miss out on a lot of revenue. Uh but I think a lot of the times you just sort of have to go for it, but in a way where you've done your due diligence, so that you've done everything you could do to make sure that the thing will survive as it's intended to. It's just it doesn't always work out uh sometimes. I think in the cycling space, especially like you know, the in order for the company to survive and live, they have to launch products sometimes. It's not good, um, but it's just if you're not making as much money as you know a defense company where like you literally just aren't, the you can prove out the product 100% and delay its launch by a year. And go out of business. Um you go out of business, right? Like you just you just go out of business. Um you literally can't afford to do it. So it's it's tough. Like it it's it's not fun um to have to sometimes be forced to create product that you know may not be perfect.

Host - Dane Higgins: 45:42

I feel like you describe Shimano and Shram. And I'm very neutral on both. Uh by the way, I just got my new XTDI2 group. Nice. So uh so I'm not all Shram. So for all of the listeners, we'll convert you. Yeah. Um, but I feel like Shimano's philosophy has been kind of wait, make sure it's right, do it right the first time, and they'll they'll delay or or they'll appear like they're not really producing stuff as fast. And whereas DRAM is like pumping that stuff out. And then, you know, the I think that's one of the drawbacks, you know, like like you guys are pointing out, is that when you're dealing with DRAM, like sometimes you're seeing a product that quite wasn't quite ready, you know, could needed some refined.

Host - Josh Anderson: 46:26

They build products for their industry, so they have they have a a more I guess maybe a more buffer potentially.

Host - Dane Higgins: 46:31

Well, yeah, they could have uh if they don't release the latest and greatest every single year, they it doesn't affect them as deeply, whereas Chat RAM is really just a cycling of a bike company. You know, so that's very true. But that it that's one of those myths that's been out there until Cannondale. Yeah, uh like probably before you work forum was probably famous for that. We would say just new versions of Cannondale's left and right. And uh they always uh they had the nickname for a long time of crack and fail. And uh they were constantly refining their frames, you know, and then the lefty forks and the the headshots.

Host - Josh Anderson: 47:08

It's also there's also a cultural thing. Like I work with a lot of Japanese companies, Michael T heavy industries, yeah, um Suzuki Heavy Industries, others. And what we find culturally is like they are they put a lot more focus on quality control.

Host - Dane Higgins: 47:21

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson: 47:21

Uh and and and and quality into their their manufacturing process and their design process compared to like other uh companies that have a similar um produ uh product but are in the United States or in Europe. Yeah. For whatever reason, the Japanese, I think it's uh it's a cultural thing. Like they just put a lot of time into it, right? Yep, yeah. And that could that can be it's awesome, but it can also be super frustrating because it can take forever to get a product from. Like, Jesus Christ, could you guys please deliver it and put it out there and we'll we're not gonna send it to you until it's right. And I'm like, well, sometimes I need it perfect and sometimes I need it now, and I need it now. So god damn it, give me give it to me.

Host - Dane Higgins: 47:56

That's true. And so it's not so much a myth, it's a reality that that does happen a little bit. So yeah.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 48:02

I think one example from a different industry where this is sort of taking place right now is you know, um, with the Toyota Tundra uh compared to like an F-150, similar motors like twin turbo, one's a V4 or V6, and then one's a twin turbo v6. Yeah, let's just say two twin turbo v6s. The Ford's on their third generation of that motor for the 3.5 liter Tika boost. Yeah. The Toyota's on their first.

Host - Dane Higgins: 48:30

Yeah.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 48:31

And so it's like Toyota just had the same motor for 20 years before. And then so they made it perfect. But then every all the customers were like, well, it's not fast enough. The ass notch kind of sucks, it's not exciting. And so they were their hand was forced in that they're like, crap, okay, fine. We'll make that twin turbo V6 that has all the power and gets the fuel efficiency. And Ford isn't known for having as good a reliability, but now because they went for it and they pushed through and like tried and made the new thing, even though it wasn't perfect, they're now on their third generation of motor. And if you're gonna compare the two, you probably want the Ford motor right now.

Host - Josh Anderson: 49:10

Because it's something it's something about repetition, right? It's something about repetition.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 49:14

That's and you have like with new product, you have to go for it. Otherwise, you just never get the opportunity to learn how to make it better. And sometimes the consumer does pay and that does suck. But the alternative is not innovating. And in the long run, I think Toyota's finding out it's pretty painful to just like not keep moving forward and push through that pain. And then at the end of the day, they're behind, and now they have to play catch up. Um, because you know, I mean, I guess we can if the listeners don't know, like the tundras are having a lot of motor issues. Yeah, like they're having their motors are failing, and it's like if they had been on their third generation of twin turbo, that would have fluffed out already. Right. And but now they have to go through a lot of pain. Yeah, and so do the customers in order to play catch up. Wow.

Host - Dane Higgins: 50:00

So um I wanted to switch gears. Yeah. Speaking of motors. Go for it.

Host - Josh Anderson: 50:05

But let's not, we gotta, we gotta come back to room save. That's what I'm saying.

Host - Dane Higgins: 50:08

That's where I was going.

Host - Josh Anderson: 50:08

Perfect. Go for it.

Host - Dane Higgins: 50:09

Yeah, so I just wanted to um switch from the engineering talk, which because we geek out and I think a lot of people fall asleep. So um we we save the bets for last, which is we want to talk about the the actual company you started, uh, which is to address something that I think every single one of us has an issue with, which is flats and so and damaging rims. So, and so uh can you tell us a little bit about that project, that that product that you uh personally make?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 50:37

So yeah, yeah. So uh we have a small business called Rim Saver. Um, and it basically is just an easy-to-install bottom-out bumper for your rim and tire. And with that, it doesn't mean it's gonna make you unstoppable, but that's not the goal. It's just sort of to take the edge off of sharp hits that either sting a rim, cause a pinch flap, or if you have carbon rims, cause a crack. And it's it's sort of like uh having wearing a helmet when you ride. It's like, okay, uh, I've gone well, okay. Let me pause on this analogy really quick. A helmet's not going to make you invin invincible, but it makes a lot of sense to run one. Yeah. Uh you can still get a concussion, just like with a tire insert, you can still break a wheel. But I I'd rather have my helmet on uh and know that when I hit that sharp rock going back to the rim, uh I am more likely to be able to continue to ride and not have to deal with a pinch flat or a damaged rim again. Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins: 51:41

And so this is a a strip that uh sits against the rim inside the tire and kind of does it come up over where the bead would normally be and give you like a like that bead protection?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 51:54

Yep. Yeah. So basically you can imagine it being like a V shape inside of your tire, and it's a soft plastic strip that sits above your rim flanges. And so when you run into a sharp rock, it not it spreads out that sharp impact, making it a blunt impact, which wheels and tires are much better at handling. Uh, then it also squishes slightly and uh siphons off some of the energy.

Host - Dane Higgins: 52:19

Nice. And then how do you deal with like all these different rim widths like that are out there? Like, do you have a range or is there a bunch of different widths that you use?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 52:30

Yeah, so we've optimized for uh the most common rim widths, uh focusing mostly on 30 mil internal rim widths, especially for a midweight and heavyweight version. And then we make the insert compatible up to a certain rim width beyond that and below that. I don't know the exact numbers off the top of my head, but I haven't had that question asked in a while because for the most part it's been compatible with pretty much everyone's wheel, but um we we just make it slightly wider than most rims so that it's always over the rim plange and protecting it. And then go ahead.

Host - Josh Anderson: 53:05

Oh, I was gonna ask, like uh how does the how does the uh shit pressed a valve?

Host - Dane Higgins: 53:12

Oh yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson: 53:12

Yeah, how does that work with your with your Yeah?

Host - Dane Higgins: 53:15

Do you have to have a use so like with uh Kushcore and other brands, you have to have like different valves that allow sealant to get in and out? Do you have that something similar or do they come with valves or yep, yeah, they come with valves.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 53:27

Um, and then they do require a uh insert valve, essentially an insert compatible valve. So basically it just needs some holes on the side of the valve so that if the rim saver ever covers the top of your your valve, air can get in and out of of said valve.

Host - Dane Higgins: 53:44

And then is it um so uh you you were talking earlier about how that product, so a lot of tire inserts kind of give you a different feel. Sometimes they use that as their selling feature, like, oh, it's gonna give you like a dual changes the spring rate. Yeah, spring rate or something like that, which drives me nuts. But um so yours isn't meant to do that, it's meant to kind of make it feel like a normal tire. And so there's not a lot of bulk, I'm guessing. Is it easier to put on than like a cush core would be? Like is it or is it still a pain in the butt?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 54:14

It it's much easier. So it's still all dependent on how tight your tire is on your rim. So like I'm not gonna say that if if you have a continental downhill tire and you're putting it on a carbon rim without an insert, that still sucks. Yeah. So so I'm not gonna say that this somehow magically makes that experience better, but essentially rim saver, it has a bungee on it and it it increases in diameter to move out of the way of your tire bead during tire install.

Host - Dane Higgins: 54:42

Is it split? So is it is the the insert itself split? Are you stretching a material or is it it uh so what's it look? Yeah, sorry. Uh what's it like?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 54:52

No, all good. So basically uh it's a loop of extruded plastic that goes around your rim, and then there's a slight overlap with a slot in it. So if you ever slashed a tire, you could put a tube over your insert and still limp home. You don't have to take it out and throw it on the side of the trail or put it around your shoulder. Okay. But basically that overlap exists so uh so that we can next to it fit a bungee. And essentially, there's a uh basically a strap and a bungee that allows the whole entire uh insert that's wrapped wrapped around inside of your tire increase in circumference. Okay. And and so it stretches out of the way of your tire bead as you're installing it. So it never gets in the way of your tire bead going into the center channel of your rim. Um and then once your tire's inflated, it just cinches itself in place and holds itself in place.

Host - Josh Anderson: 55:48

The air pressure inside the tire is what's kind of holding it in place. Or the bungee. Yeah. Okay, gotcha. Yeah.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 55:55

Tightening it. It's uh and yeah, it holds itself in place. So it doesn't really knock around um and it's always in the right spot uh so that uh it's ready to protect your rim and tire. Um and then what's nice is it doesn't stretch in diameter over time. So like some foam inserts, they get larger, like you're eight months in, and now it's kind of loose in your tire, so your tire has changed in and feel. Um, but then also they can knock about and spin like when you start breaking and stuff.

Host - Dane Higgins: 56:22

Like a Huck Norris where they just kind of spin inside or twist or move around and like it they may not be in the place that you want them. So uh so talk to us.

Host - Josh Anderson: 56:33

You you you've got some, I think you have three different versions of this. Is that right? You have uh a light, medium, and heavy?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 56:40

Yep, exactly. So everything from gravel through downhill.

Host - Josh Anderson: 56:43

Oh wow, gravel too, that makes sense. So and then the weights, the what what are the weights of those of the systems? Do you remember? Uh let me pull it up because it's been a minute. You don't have all this stuff. You don't have all this stuff memorized by now?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 56:58

I usually do, don't worry. But I know I'll say the wrong one right now. So, like right now, so our our lightweight for 29ers 79 grams, our midweight uh for 29ers 183, and our heavyweight for 29ers 249.

Host - Dane Higgins: 57:11

And then do you cover 275 and 29?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 57:15

Okay, yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins: 57:16

Is it the same one and you trim them, or is it uh different insert?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 57:20

It's a different insert. So we want to make sure that the install experience and the fitment within the tire was optimized for each. Okay. And then we also wanted to make sure that the person who had the 27.5-inch wheel wasn't lugging around more protective material than they had to be. Yeah, I like lighter.

Host - Dane Higgins: 57:38

I like that you can put a tube in it because one thing that does happen a lot, like uh let's say on a Cushcore or even the Vitorios, which I'm really happy with, they you get a flat, and then now you don't have room for a tube. And uh then you've got to pull that insert out, put a tube in, you know, if you get a slash. Yeah. And then you're bandolering uh a tire, you know, like a stoppy pool noodle around your uh you know, body while you're riding back on a tube.

Host - Josh Anderson: 58:06

Or or what happens to me and and because I couldn't get the damn tire off. Yeah. So I couldn't put a tube in because the insert was blocking on a trail without the tools at my house. I couldn't get the fucking tire off. So I'd I had to hike out. Yeah, right.

Host - Dane Higgins: 58:17

Now um so the I'm gonna get back to the uh tire bead, because we did a podcast with Vittoria and Avery. And uh he said that one of the things that they're doing on there is just kind of increasing the stiffness of the bead to act as a like a tire rim protectant. And so as those get stiffer, they must sit up straight and then create kind of a like a like a deeper channel that this would have to go into, or does it flex up to kind of um you know so if you take a normal rim, you've got a normal channel, trying to do this in the camera so you can see it. And then if the bead sits higher, does your insert uh flex to get into that so to accommodate for that extra stiffness in the beads?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 59:05

Yes. So basically we have uh a V shape that is sort of flattened out. Okay. Uh and then so it we make sure that the total width of that V shape, even if squished down into a different tire shape, uh-huh, is wide enough and has the protective material over the right place of the ramplange, um, regardless of tire shape and the tire carcass shape. Um and it always falls into place literally because it's being pulled uh uh in circumference via the bungee, yeah, and it squishes itself with that V shape into the tire um and forms itself right into where it needs to be.

Host - Dane Higgins: 59:48

So it's not Did I answer your question? Yeah, absolutely. So you're you're not really you don't have to worry that your your tire brand will make a difference. Like you're pretty much accommodating all the time.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:00:00

brands okay I got a really hard question what's your favorite tire uh so it depends I really well I used to be a big Maxis guy um they were always very good uh I just ran a DHF front and rear yeah um because I call I saw Connor Furon doing that in a World Cup video when I was probably 16 and then I just did that because I'm like oh Connor Furon does that that's what I'm gonna do. That was the only logic. I really like uh I and then I moved to the Magic Mary. It was really hard for me to beat the Magic Mary it suits my riding style. And then the full continental range these days I've been enjoying quite a bit especially because the sidewall stiffness makes it so that I get the the feeling of an insert uh that you know when I was back on Maxis and running a cushion core I was like okay I appreciate the extra sidewall stability that that cushion core was giving me because the Maxis are kind of they're like balloony in that they squirm a bit more. Yeah. But then the carcass especially around the bead for the Continental tires is so stiff and it doesn't change in feel too quickly as the tire breaks in. It's consistent, it's supportive and then um there's not really a reason for me to run foam anymore because I'm getting all the sidewall support I want and the tires tracking the ground in the way I want it to um especially without the foam. But I still want the the protection for those sharp rockets. Yeah. And that's why I've made Rim Saver essentially it's kind of solving a problem for me and my friends. And especially because it wasn't uh a solution that we saw that was out there. That's the main reason we created it. And it won't be for everyone like I that's one of the biggest things to point out is like uh it's for people who are looking for this exact type of solution for these reasons. Um there is still a place for foam. It's just not what I want to run and not what my friends want to run. So that's why we made it.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:01:59

So what would be the number one thing that somebody wants to go with rim saver over that that makes it different? Like uh are they just looking for rim protection and not feel would you say that's the the uh the best selling feature or um yeah okay well so it depends.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:02:17

So our target demo like the people who buy our product the most are people who have nice wheels and they want it to be easy to protect them and they don't want to lose out on the ride quality of those nice wheels. So you spend two grand on this carbon wheel set and it's light and peppy and all this and if you put a foam insert in there sometimes you can lose that pep um and the ride feel kind of gets deadened which for some people is fine but a lot of the times they're like I I just bought these nice wheels I I want to feel like there's nothing in there. I like the way that they feel but I have nice wheels so now I want to protect them. That's who buys our wheels our our tire inserts the most and then the other person who buys them the most is the the racer who is look looking for rim protection so that they don't ruin their runs but they prioritize the way the tire feels without a tire insert.

Host - Josh Anderson: 1:03:10

Nice I heard a great analogy on one of your other podcasts and I don't know if it was you or one of the the hosts was saying it's kind of like putting a case on your cell phone like you know like I'm looking at my iPhone right here and I I it's an expensive thing. Yeah and you know Apple didn't I mean you know I'm just adding to you know the protective and it's kind of it kind of feels like that's like what you that's a that's a great analogy for this product.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:03:34

It's funny because my iPhone doesn't have a case it's all cracked and I've got stickers holding the back together. You don't want to hold your room together with stickers.

Host - Josh Anderson: 1:03:43

No hey you got you guys list um some percentages of impact strength increase that comes from using these that start at 13% for your lightweight fifth or 19% for your midweight and 28% for your heavyweight how are you calculating that like like how how do you determine this those numbers?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:03:58

Yeah so basically it's with our in-house sharp impact test machine. So we have a wheel braking machine in-house um it it is focused on sharp impacts that's the type of impact uh we believe is most relevant for uh modern wheels and what we want to be protecting against because blunt impacts like carbon wheels these days are pretty good at taking on blunt impacts you don't really get pinch flats from blunt impacts either it's always the sharp ones the ones that when you pull your foam insert out it has all these slices in it every time I did that I'm like that those are the only impacts I care about. It's just those sharp impacts so we designed uh um a test rig that focuses just on that uh and basically it's change in energy that it took to break the rim is is what those percentages represent with that particular impactor. Um so with and without rim saver. That's what that percentage increase is from.

Host - Josh Anderson: 1:04:53

So Ryan what are your prices and where can folks get these?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:04:57

Yeah so they're basically it's a flat rate of uh $89 a piece uh per insert um or you could buy a pair for $174. Um it's everything I mean it's mostly set up D to C right now um but with the goal of that's direct direct to consumer so they can go to your website and get it. Yeah yep um and then we basically uh market in a way to where shops that are interested they reach out to the to us and then we sell through to them.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:05:27

Um and they they can have a margin they can sell them at your price they don't have to like try and sell them more than you do. Correct.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:05:35

Yep we won't ever compete with a shop um and it's a good margin as well.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:05:39

Okay.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:05:40

Um and we ran into this funny problem where when we launched Rim Saver about a year and a half ago, you know you reach out to QVP or BTI and they're like we don't want another tire insert. Like we're not even going to try this thing. Which was totally fair because like they had way too much inventory. They had to dump it all and they're like we just don't want another tire insert and it's like okay fine like I won't even I'll I'll try and make enough people want this thing so that someday QVP comes to us and says hey we would like to like sell your tire insert. And so we've been doing that by working with shops. So shops who reach out and are interested in it um buy RIM sabers from us. They sell them and if they're happy they come back and then eventually we'll work our way up to QVP.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:06:27

Okay so um I'm interested and so my problem I want to know if your product will fix my problem my problem is again I I'm not a big insert guy because I think I don't know if I've actually put it down and figured out why I don't like inserts, but it could be that I'm noticing that feel difference, you know I'm also a weight weenie so I want to keep my stuff light because I'm heavy so I got to compensate right and so uh and I have really nice wheels. Most of my wheels are top end you know $20, $300 wheel sets. So my biggest cut or or um flat that I get is the one that basically pinches the tire and the rim together and you get a cut at the bead and you get a cut like right on the inside of a knob um you know usually right where the rim would be. And so does your product help with that or is it just meant to really protect the rim? Like is the cutting you know can you get a sharp enough impact where you're gonna still cut that tire or uh especially at the bead those are the hard ones or is yours going to help with that?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:07:29

It does help with that. So I don't have exact numbers for pinch flat protection. Pinch flap protection basically became a byproduct of uh creating rim saber like the name rim saver came from trying to protect rims and then in doing so we stumbled upon oh this is pretty good at helping to prevent pinch flats as well yeah um because basically what it's doing is it's it's a soft thing that goes between the sharp rock and trying to slice your tire on your rim flange and it essentially spreads out that sharp so it becomes harder to slice that tire. And so for as soon as the gravel version came out I did do a test to get some data on the gravel tire for the amount of pinch flat protection that it has. And on that gravel tire it was about a 50% improvement in pinch flat protection. That's awesome. Now I need to yeah it's so it's and then the the anecdotal feedback we get too is like yeah this thing has definitely helped with pinch flap uh prevention um will make you unstoppable again no tire insert will make you unstoppable but it definitely helps so um I also said that I was going to bring up uh envy so your product is similar to what Envy um did uh I don't even know if they still do it but they basically created a rim strip that went over the top of their carbon and now I'm seeing the difference it sounds like their rim strip the tire would sit into their rim strip and actually beat up to theirs.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:08:58

So their rim strip was not helping with pinch flats. It was not in between so yours sits in between the two layers of rubber when they compress and creates that cushion whereas like an envy strip uh is sitting underneath and so it's protecting the rim but not doing anything for the tire. Is that fair?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:09:19

So you've had a bad experience on the envies is what you're saying.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:09:23

No no I think they protect the tire the rim great yeah what what's the difference between them from your perspective I think is what he's asking.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:09:30

Yeah. So I I think the Envy's better than rim saver. Oh really I think that's I think that's the best way to do it. The problem that you run into is most people can't buy those wheels.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:09:38

Yeah and you can't and that's strips contoured to that specific rim you can't move it from wheel to wheel.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:09:44

So correct yeah so that's the biggest problem you run into is like I'm like I like that solution the best it's my favorite one.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:09:50

Okay.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:09:51

Uh but 99% of moun bikers will never have be able to ride that. Yeah. But 99% of moun bikers are well some percentage of that percentage is interested in in pinch flap protection and rim protection especially for like I already have these wheels that I like yeah and I I want to protect them. Like that's my target demo. I want to give M MV props on what they've done because I think that's really cool.

Host - Josh Anderson: 1:10:16

Oh nice.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:10:17

I've never heard a product owner say that before I I I think so I mean I mean that just speaks to his integrity plus he's an engineer for all we know he worked on that project.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:10:27

I did not I think but I'm like oh that thing's sick and that's why we ended up with plastic too I'm like why's everyone using foam like foam's good but when you take a sharp rock and you smash it into a carbon rim flange like there's a lot of energy there and it takes a lot of foam to dissipate that energy. Yeah I'm like ah I think we need something firmer. I think plastic makes sense and so I'm like oh yeah envy does that cool let's do that too it's just in our own way.

Host - Josh Anderson: 1:10:51

Nice. So um you just for our local market you know our trails here is just like sharp rock city. Yeah. Like we're gonna go out riding today and we're gonna we're gonna hopefully not have to walk our bikes back.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:11:03

Yeah yeah no that but um this seems like it'd be a great product for our local that's what I'm that's what I'm trying to see is like one, you told me something as a bike shop owner um I could sell this product and I don't have to compete with you and that makes me happy. So and then two it may address something that we do see here that sometimes gets uh ignored because I I don't know what it is like where you're riding, but a lot of times companies are designing products for the terrain that's kind of most the tasty, you know, wherever they're based out of. And so uh if you're in a really roody muddy nasty terrain you're gonna kind of develop tires with fake lugs that kind of shed mud and grab roots. And then if you're in the southwest and you're dealing with square edge like sharp rocks like we do, you're gonna develop you know a different type and nobody's developing stuff here. I think you should move here. I can't arrive here in the winter so I'll pop out. Yeah where can we do any product testing let us know we can move it out. We feel like we need to get a house and just have all the engineers have access to it in the summer or in the winter in the winter. So yeah we've had that conversation a bunch.

Host - Josh Anderson: 1:12:13

Well hey man thanks um really appreciate your time um really excited to see like where things go with with bare innovation and and rimsaver you got any other products that you're developing right now you want to talk about or you or not nothing or or what's the most exciting thing that you can give us a like a teaser on oh okay so it's all for so we we work on discretion so like any yeah we try and yeah we unless a company wants to brag about us helping them develop their products which sometimes the smaller ones are down to do um that and those haven't come out yet so we can't do that.

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:12:51

Yeah we we try and just be plug and play and like no one knows we were there.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:12:55

So is sort of the goal just like faction I'll give you yeah I'll give you a little uh little hint uh faction bike studio similar to what you're doing and we asked them the same question and they gave us a generic term which uh I when they said that we will probably see a lot more modularity in the bike industry and that's all they said. So do you have some teaser for something like that?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:13:17

So um not not necessarily but I think I mean maybe what they mean by that is like efficiencies to be gained within bike chassis and like trying to like Trek just did it right yeah that's that's that's what we did that at Cannondale and we did that at GT and um a lot of companies have been doing that for a while and it's essentially like how do you like bikes are you know they're becoming quite similar. So it it it it seems like it makes sense to make one base chassis and then tweak it so that you can have three different bikes out of it. So long as and this is the biggest thing so long as they're they're all uh they all work quite well and aren't fully compromised to where they all just kind of suck. Yeah because it's very easy to actually accidentally run into that scenario and then it's like your full line of a bike just isn't that good. And so there there's a way to do and there's a way that that you don't want to do it. But um I mean yeah I mean companies are they have to do that now because it you know it it just doesn't make business sense to if you're of a certain business size open up three different sets of front triangle tools for carbon frames for a cross country bike a trail bike and endure bike well cross country bike's different but like in a a trail bike aggressive trail and enduro bike you can kind of make them the same thing um and use the exact same front triangle.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:14:43

So Trek's doing that and I think it's it makes business sense especially if you can provide the the consumer with uh a product that fulfills 100% of their needs like why not right if the window grows earth them like uh that's one of the things that we in the shop we love that you can take a new rider and say hey you can get this bike but then as you grow it grows with you it changes with you.

Host - Josh Anderson: 1:15:09

I mean you you saw me do that this year like a lot of the grill of gravity and I bought it in the smash configuration and then before we went to Angelfire this year I I converted it over to the Narvana which is a bigger like 180, 170 whatever and goddamn that bike opened up and wow I mean it was great in the Smash configuration in the Narvana configuration it was way way rad. Yeah and and once you put some tram on that it'll be really good. Oh god here we go all right all right on that note Ryan you got any final thoughts for our listeners brother anything anything we miss or that you want to say any plugs or anything you want to do?

Guest - Ryan Burney (Bare Innovations): 1:15:42

Uh no just um uh I've overthought bikes for a long time and the conclusion I've come upon is still just like don't worry about it just go ride your bike and have fun it doesn't really matter so like don't let don't let like you know a I should have a better answer for this but like this is kind of just like riffing off the top of my head and it's a feeling that needs to come out it's uh don't worry about your setup too much unless you really want to nerd out out about it. And sorry Dane I hope this doesn't go against your business but like there are people who just like really want to nerd out about it and like cool if that's what mountain biking if that's what makes mountain biking fun you do it. Awesome.

Host - Dane Higgins: 1:16:23

If if you're not that worried about it don't worry just ride and run run run what you bring. And it doesn't hurt us at all because we're nerding like crazy and and you don't have to buy a new bike every year but sometimes throwing a new set of grips just gets you a little motivation and you know some some little product or maybe you know like your product you're addressing real issues that are costing people money. It's a it's a money saving thing.

Host - Josh Anderson: 1:16:45

So I think I'm definitely going to get some of these to try them out on Lacey's bike. My wife's notoriously hard with Sharp rock so yeah yeah so it'll be good. Hey thanks Ryan I really really appreciate you man yeah yeah thank you guys