Mountain Cog
Mountain bike podcast that will make you laugh and learn. Featuring a wide range of passionate guests. Available everywhere (Apple, Spotify etc).
Mountain Cog
119 - How to Set Up Mountain Bike Suspension: Complete & Simple to Understand Guide from a Suspension Expert
Does your mountain bike fork feel harsh over bumps? Is your suspension bottoming out on drops or packing down in rock gardens? In this comprehensive suspension setup guide, professional bike shop owner and suspension expert Dane Higgins and co-host Josh walks you through the exact process to dial in your MTB suspension settings. Starting with proper sag measurement (the foundation of all suspension tuning), you’ll learn how to use a shock pump, set the correct air pressure for your weight, and understand why sag percentages vary between 120mm XC forks and 180mm DH forks.
Beyond sag, this episode demystifies rebound damping and compression settings that most riders never adjust. Discover why rebound is the second most important adjustment (giving you 90% of optimal performance with just sag and rebound dialed), how to prevent the “pogo stick” feeling from rebound that’s too fast, and when to adjust low-speed versus high-speed compression. Dane shares bike shop secrets about volume spacers, explains why Fox Factory forks might not be right for every rider, and teaches the bracketing technique to systematically find your perfect suspension settings for any trail condition.
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Bro, I'm fasting today. Yeah, you told me. I feel like that's just torturing yourself. I've been uh this is week eight. Yeah. I've fasted uh seven of those eight weeks. I fasted one 36 hour period. In one of those um weeks I did a 72 hour period. Wow. It is fantastic.
Host - Dane Higgins:Did how did you deal with uh holidays? You just suck it up, man. I mean, so you don't eat or you're is when 36 hours, just you shouldn't eat for 36 hours.
Host - Josh Anderson:So I just time the fast so that I'm not doing it when we're doing like the holiday events or whatever.
Host - Dane Higgins:Okay.
Host - Josh Anderson:But uh man, it's amazing how you feel the day after a fast once you start eating again. Yeah, like all my biometrics are like through the roof. It is wonderful. Wow. I'm uh very much enjoying it. So we'll see how how it goes. I'm gonna try to do a longer one soon. Maybe next week, I'm gonna try to do maybe a five-day fast. Wow. It could be interesting, huh? Jesus. Okay. So my son, the reason it we the reason I'm thinking about it, the reason I brought it up is I'm hungry. And my son just made carne asada tacos. I can smell them. And he made like he he's like learning how to cook, and uh, he's quite a good cook. And um he's was experimenting with some different things to do, and he was just showing me. He's like, look dad, look what I did, dad. And I wanted to go like you know, participate and be a good father, but I'm like, I'm starving. So I'm like, dude, why? Why do you have to show me food? I'm gonna go shut myself in this room over here. Hey, um a mountain biker walks into a shop and says to a suspension tech that his fork feels harsh. Okay. And the tech asks him, When's the last time you serviced it? And the guy said, You're supposed to service these things.
Host - Dane Higgins:That's not a dad joke. That's like reality. Like, I'm not even kidding. Like the amount of people that come in the shop and actually are like, What?
Host - Josh Anderson:When that popped up as one of the dad jokes to pick from, I figured you would appreciate that is yeah, that's not even a joke.
Host - Dane Higgins:That's for real.
Host - Josh Anderson:So So uh in the last couple like bike shop secret episodes, there you go, open up DP2. Yep, yep, DP DP2, Diapepsy 2. We had Diapepsy 1. We actually recorded doubleheader. This is the second podcast we've recorded tonight. Yeah, it's a marathon marathon session. But uh we have talked about in the last two bike shop secret episodes that we put out, like doing this thing around suspension setup. Yep. Uh, and I and I had this this grand plan that we were gonna break it down into these little bits and pieces and do one at a time.
Host - Dane Higgins:It may still happen. It may still happen. I'm just saying. But we've never actually gotten to Yeah, we keep getting distracted with other things, with other things, and then we run out of time.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah. And so I thought, you know what, we're gonna dance, we're gonna do it. Okay. We're gonna do it this time. We're gonna do a whole episode on suspension setup. And who better than the suspension guru himself? Yes. And just to make sure, because I couldn't remember, we have so many episodes now, 118 episodes that we've uh seventeen, 117 that we published, 118 that we recorded. Actually, there's another 10 that we recorded that we never published because they they weren't good enough to see put those out there because you always bring it up.
Host - Dane Higgins:I feel like it's an issue. I think you may have an issue with them.
Host - Josh Anderson:I do have an issue with them. They're not good enough to they don't meet our quality control standards.
Host - Dane Higgins:Part of the box set or the limited edition series or something like that.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah, if someone wants to hear the secret episodes for$1,000, I will seriously send you all of the limited edition, unreleased, and still no one has found this. There is one episode that's out there in a different location.
Host - Dane Higgins:I think anybody who messaged you that they want to hear it, you would just send it to$1,000.
Host - Josh Anderson:I will send you the unreleased uh podcast episodes. Anyways, um, so I thought we could talk about again, use this episode, talk everything about suspension.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
Host - Josh Anderson:Who better than the suspension guru himself? Um, this is a really hard topic to um uh it's hard to do without pictures, hard to do without pictures, hard to explain. So we're gonna do the best we can here. Yeah, there's a couple things that I want to make sure um we get across, like main points. First of all, you spent all this money, you got this badass machine that's your mountain bike. It has capabilities that you're probably not dialing in, yeah. And it's worth taking the time to learn how these things work, the settings in your suspension, uh, and take advantage of them because it can open up your bike in ways that you've never seen before.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, I get um there if I run a suspension clinic, I get a ton of people that show up. Uh the hardest part is trying to help them learn what this stuff does. That's my goal. My goal is not to just set it for them. You know, uh there's there's there's people that are like, hey, come see me and I'll set your suspension up. And that's big in moto, uh, where you go in with your motorcycle, you go get set up on your bike, and then they set it up for you, and then you ride it. And I kind of want to teach people how to do that. And on in bikes, it's way more e it's much easier for somebody to set up their own suspension. Motorcycles are are tough because they're heavy, and you can't you can't necessarily just push on the fork and see what it feels like when it would be on the track. On a bike, you can get a lot of that feedback. So uh that's my goal.
Host - Josh Anderson:Teach them to fish, don't give them the fish.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, and and people always, I mean, we're even adjusting pricing in the shop to include setting up people's suspension. And I'm I always seem more reluctant than I probably should be because I should be like, yeah, just give me that money, I'll take it. But uh but honestly, I feel bad because I really just want to teach them how to do it. Uh, it's not a moneymaker for me. I feel like it's a skill that I really want people to know.
Host - Josh Anderson:And one thing I've noticed, and I'm I I don't uh I would say I'm a novice at setting suspension up and I need to learn more, so I'm excited to hear to learn from you in this episode personally as well. But one thing I've definitely noticed riding with you and other very capable riders is that people that understand their suspension and they're good riders, I see them making adjustments to that suspension on the trail. Yeah. Like there's like, okay, this thing's not performing, or I didn't I didn't expect the trail to be, especially when we go ride new trails, you're like, oh, this is this is more, this is more whatever, bigger drops, more chunk, whatever, and you're tweaking things here or there um to open up your bike. And I don't have the ability to do that, so I just struggle through a bad suspension setting for that trail. So I think learning these skills is really important, and I think you pay the damn money, yeah, take some time and figure this out. So we're gonna try to give you a start today. Yeah.
Host - Dane Higgins:Okay, so what's the first thing?
Host - Josh Anderson:All right, first thing, and the most what okay, where the way this will work is I'm gonna tell Dane what I think. Okay, perfect. And Dane's gonna tell me if I'm right or I'm an idiot. Yeah, or just if you're on the mark or you know, if you're off. And as you all know, if you've listened to this podcast before, more times than not, I'm wrong. No, you're right a lot. All right. I believe, uh, and I've I've been led to I've I've learned and I've been and I've read and I believe in my heart that sag is the most important thing. So we'll start. So so setting your sag. So what does that mean? That is um uh sag actually is a measurement of how much your suspension compresses under your body weight when you're sitting or riding the bike. Um and the way that you set your sag is that typically on the left, so so I guess um we'll start with the fork. Yeah. On the left um stanchion. You can say air side, uh most of them are on the left. Most of them on the left, yeah. So so left or right, but most on the left. At the very top of your stanchion, there'll be a little uh uh cover that you unscrew, and there'll be a little shrader valve in there, and you attach a shock pump, specific shock pump, not your floor pump, but a shock pump. And the reason why not a CO2, yeah, because um you're actually using a lot higher pressures in your in your shocks. And lower volume. And lower volume, so you need a shock pump. Um, and shock pumps are not expensive, it's a$20 or$30 thing, so make sure you get one. And there's a bunch of them out there, all the major companies have them. Um and you you insert the air side of your fork or the can on your shock uh with air, and you try to dial in a certain percentage of sag. There's usually a little red or black indicator that's like a little certain rubber band type circle, and you try to get a certain percentage, and setting that sag is first and foremost the most important thing you can do. And it's not just set it and forget it forever, you have to periodically check because air pressure can change over time, and so you have to every couple months check to make sure that your sag is still set correctly. How am I doing so far? Perfect.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, so a couple caveats. Um some suspensions have different colors, and we're gonna talk about air. So we're gonna in most cases talk about positive air chambers. Okay, and the reason we say that is because there's a couple forks on the market that have secondary air systems that adjust like ramp up or feel. Yep. Um older ones had to even the negative air was adjustable uh through a negative air. And so uh we're just gonna talk about the positive air systems. If you're you would want to look at your fork and figure out where this stuff is. So it's not always on the right, it's not always on the left, it's uh in most cases. So just a little bit of disclaimers out there. Setting SAG is um the thing that you nailed is that to check it, uh, when we sell new suspension, it breaks in. And so often the suspension sag needs to be reset after a few rides just because the everything's gotten kind of broken in and it may not be where it should be. And and SAG in general is what its function is, you know, is as the suspension reaches uh a negative hole, you know, where the suspension could go down, you want the suspension to be able to reach into that hole and then be able to come compress also. And so you want to be sitting in your suspension a little bit. If it was fully rigid, uh why have the suspension? Yeah, well, or or you would have a lot of stiction uh to overcome. Uh and so the sag helps maintain you in almost like a movement of the suspension. And then uh the air systems, the new advanced ones, uh do that with negative air too. So uh so I think you're on the the one thing is that little uh rubber ring. It's uh we call it the phonometer. Okay. And it's it it tells you how much fun you're having. Okay. So so and most forks have it. Sometimes they'll fall off here in the desert, they'll rot and fall off. So if you don't see one, you can use a zip tie. I actually like a silver sharpie personally, um, better because the zip ties over time can kind of scratch your create vibrations. Yeah. Um but if you lose your phenometer, it's not a big deal, you know. But you can use a zip tie temporarily or you can use a silver sharpie. Actually, it works really well. You just make a mark mark on there. Yeah, I use that to make a mark and and then it'll wipe off.
Host - Josh Anderson:And I would imagine when you get your fork serviced, your tech can add your phenometer or that little rubber uh circle back in onto your fork. I'm sure you have a drawer of 10,000 of them. I do, and and every once in a while I forget to put them on.
Host - Dane Higgins:And it sucks. I had a guy in Sierra Vista, he's like, hey, uh, you didn't put the the O-ring back on, and I'm like, damn it. And you know, I'm shipping, you know, suspension. And that's the worst, because that usually meant I was in a hurry or I got interrupted. And so uh, but yeah, every once in a while it doesn't do anything, it's it's just it doesn't do anything other than the function, yeah. Well, and it's also a travel indicator. So um we use it for sag, uh, but it also what it can do is tell you how much travel you're getting on that particular trail. Because if you put it down in during your ride, you know, at the start of your ride, if you get done with your ride and that o-ring is only halfway through your travel, obviously you're not using all the travel, and you probably need to reset your sag uh so that you do it, get get all the use out of that travel.
Host - Josh Anderson:So I want to just back up a little bit. The the reason why I believe sag is so important, it's the most important thing is all the other settings that you're gonna mess with that we're gonna talk about, the foundation of those starts with SAG. Yeah, you gotta have your SAG. So if your SAG is wrong, everything else is gonna be wrong.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yep, yeah. Now, um last thing about SAG before we actually say how to do it, yeah, is uh a lot of forks and companies will have a chart on the sometimes on the fork itself, yep, that will use your weight and tell you what pressure to put in there. That's a good starting point. Um, but ultimately SAG is a much better uh indicator. And so when that chart uh or if you look up the, you know, uh we sell Norco and they have what's called a ride line where you can put in all your parameters with your bike and it'll tell you what pressure front and rear to put in, those are super helpful for starting, but they're not the end-all beat all. And SAG is a much more accurate uh representation. And one example is when uh we sell a fork new, they have that same chart on there, but that manufacturer has no clue what head angle uh that bike is going to be at. And so if the fork is really slack and you're centered over the rear wheel, you're gonna have left less weight over that fork and your pressure may be different than if it's a cross country uh steer tube, it's straight up and down, and you've got a lot of weight on the front wheel. And so the SAG will trump that. It'll it'll it'll overturn whatever the charts say.
Host - Josh Anderson:So okay. Let's so let's start by talking about how you actually set your sag. Yeah. Um and and first I want to talk a little bit about target percentages that you're going for. Yes. And when we say percentage, what are we talking about? Like what does that mean?
Host - Dane Higgins:So the percentage will be the amount of travel you have, and then what percentage is recommended, and that'll change in most cases. Uh rule of thumb for me is it's 20% if it's about a hundred to a hundred and twenty mil. Uh if you go into about a hundred and forty to one hundred and sixty, it may be thirty percent. And then above a hundred and sixty mil, so like our downhill bikes, we may do thirty to forty percent depending on the the fork.
Host - Josh Anderson:So And you said let me just um let me tweak something you said a little bit, make sure I understand. Sure. Because of the leverage ratio and the kinematics on a shock. Okay, we're talking the rear shock. The rear shock. It's not a percentage of your it is a percentage of your travel, but what you're measuring is actually a percentage of the stroke length.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yes, yeah. Okay. And and so that's tr that's perfect. So like if you have a hundred and sixty millimeter travel rear shock, a rear bike, your shock is comp is got a ratio. Right. So let's say it's two to one. Uh so if you've got one sixty have You may have a eighty millimeter stroke. Yes, exactly. Yep. Um in most cases, uh 160 has usually around a 65 millimeter stroke, so it's a different ratio.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah. Um you're measuring that that that part of the stanchion that sticks out.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yep. Yeah. Now um coils are tricky because that stanchion's behind the coil and it's hard to see. And so there's a little trickier uh doing those. We have little tricks. Uh we use the bottom out bumper sometimes to set the sag, and that acts like our phenometer or o-ring. Uh or you can actually do a measurement from your eye to eye and then compress it, and then if you know the you have to do math. You know, you may have to take your shoes off and figure this one out. Uh a little harder.
Host - Josh Anderson:Okay, so you said you said 20% for shorter travel.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah. 30% for like enduro level. Yep.
Host - Dane Higgins:And then it can be 35 or more, maybe if you're talking downhill. Yeah, and depending on the bike manufacturer. Um, I tend to focus on 20 for pretty much cross-country and trail bikes. I don't go to 30 until it's usually like a Fox 36, a bigger diameter. Yeah. Uh bigger. Like your enduro level bikes. Yeah. Yeah. And then it that gets really really dependent on the rider preference. Okay.
Host - Josh Anderson:So the okay.
Host - Dane Higgins:Now um, so we did do we're talking about percentage, and it's like you were saying, it's the stroke on the rear shock, but it's the travel, the fork. The stanchion's yeah, it telescopes and it's a one-to-one ratio on the front.
Host - Josh Anderson:So if you have 160 millimeters on the front, yeah, it you have a 160 millimeter stanchion sticking out that you're measuring. Yeah. It's just not the same because of that ratio on the shock on the back.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah. And something that's kind of probably handy that can help you start with this is to have a tape measure and actually tape measure that travel and either use a sharpie or just get a visual impact of where that 160 is on there. Because not all forks stop at 160. They may have more stanchion showing than 160. And so it's a kind of a rule of thumb with Fox at the top of the K for Kashima if you've got a Kashima. But if you've got a performance or a performance elite the where they're black and not gold, you have no Kashima. And so understanding that there may be a little, so you may have 160 mil fork, but it may show 170. And so understanding.
Host - Josh Anderson:Interesting. So I have always just measured it based on the stanchion that's showing. And you're telling me now, this is new information for me, that I should actually be measuring it based on the amount of suspension that or the amount of travel that that shock has.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, and provided there's nothing set up weird or wrong or anything like that, you you kind of want to just do that, and that'll give you a visual. And then something we do in the shop that's really easy is uh 25% sag is very common. So I I like 25 or 20, either one. And and the reason it sounds wishy-washy is because it's really just a subtle change between those two. One will be a little bit firmer, one will be a little softer, and you can play with them. It's sag is not the end-all, it's the starting point. Right? Yep. And so uh so if you take a hundred millimeter fork and you cut that in half, you've now got fifty millimeters. And then if you take that and cut it half again, you've got twenty-five. And so you can do that pretty easy with your eyes. You know, you can kind of just do that on the fork. And so when it's 160, it's a little harder, but you can take 160 if you know where it stops, figure out where the middle is, figure out where the middle is again, and that's going to be really similar to where your your sag's gonna be. I got you.
Host - Josh Anderson:So okay, so let's say we're gonna we're gonna actually do the measurements now, right? Yeah, yeah. Uh first question. Is it better to set the shock or the fork stack? SAG first.
Host - Dane Higgins:Wow, that's um that that's definitely gonna get different answers from different people. Um what's Dane Higgins answer? How do you do it? I do them both and I alternate. Um the argument So you don't have a big preference. The argument is uh if they're both close, then I don't have to worry about anything. Um the one's way off. If your rear is empty, it changes the angle of your fork. Yeah, and it's not gonna give you the same sag reading as if the rear shock is holding you upright, yeah, and that's gonna change your position on the bike. And so I can see where somebody would say, absolutely do the rear first, because that's less less of a factor. Uh and uh your position on the bike is pretty much static over the rear. So the front is dependent on how you stand. So when you do the front sag, if you lean too forward, you're gonna artificially, yeah, artificially have more sag than you should or less theoretically. Yeah, and then uh but over the rear, you really have to rock yourself forward or back to really change it. It's the rear is more neutral.
Host - Josh Anderson:So so it sounds it's sound from everything you just said, yeah.
Host - Dane Higgins:What I start with the rear start with the rear. Yeah. Yep.
Host - Josh Anderson:Now um Which is what you do in life anyway.
Host - Dane Higgins:Number one thing to do when you're setting sag. Okay, aside from using the chart uh on the fork or the ride a line or whatever cheater way to get to a pressure that is a good starting so that you're not like bottoming that thing out and then adding 10 psi and then bottoming it out and adding 10 psi and takes an hour. Yep. Um so getting to a place that's in the middle, you know, because having too little sag or too much sag will tell you the same thing that you need to change it. But uh you want to turn you wanna uh take off any compression adjustments. So um God, I I don't know how to say that. I should I should have a better way of turn the blue dials all the way to the left. Yeah, and then and and caveat is they're not always blue.
Host - Josh Anderson:Um turn your compression. We'll get to compression, but you want to make sure your compression is open.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, you want your open and the the fork to have as little um friction as possible.
Host - Josh Anderson:What about rebound? Do you do anything to do anything with rebound?
Host - Dane Higgins:It's it you can. Just to be safe, you absolutely can because rebound will restrict some flow, but it's not restricting the compression too much.
Host - Josh Anderson:So it's super important to make sure your compression is wide open.
Host - Dane Higgins:But if you make it a habit to back your rebound off, um it will avoid it being fully on, which can uh limit how much sag is being shown when you're bouncing the bike, which is what we'll talk about when you when you do sag. Okay. So do the rear first. Yep. Uh open up your compression. Yeah, and pretty much all your dials, just and counterclockwise in most cases.
Host - Josh Anderson:So counterclockwise is open.
Host - Dane Higgins:Okay.
Host - Josh Anderson:Um and we'll get to compression and we'll get to all in rebound and all that stuff later. So let's talk about the process. So I'm gonna start with my rear. Um I'm going to that's that's what she said. That's what she said.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's that's that's you missed it.
Host - Josh Anderson:I made that joke earlier. Did you? And you you totally you were so zoned in that you just want to. You can't be talking about suspension. I get all serious. You get all serious, yeah. It's almost like this is your living. Yeah. All right. So um open up your compression, open up your rebound, uh, start with the rear. Maybe you use the the recommended starting point from the manufacturer basically weight if you have it. And and you can go to your web to their website and every one of them will have it out there.
Host - Dane Higgins:Sometimes it's just an easy thing is put your body weight in.
Host - Josh Anderson:Put your body weight in and it'll start. Or put or put your body weight in the rear as a starting point.
Host - Dane Higgins:So if you weigh 150 pounds, put 150 psi in. Okay, cool.
Host - Josh Anderson:So that uh so you start somewhere, yeah, and then what do you do?
Host - Dane Higgins:Uh so then, okay, once you're on there, let's say you're targeted, which means you're in the the area of sag that you want to be when you you want to be centered standing over the bike. So you're gonna actually get on the bike. Yep, yep, you're gonna be on the bike. Someone like hold your handlebars. Yep. I I there's little tricks you can probably do at home if you don't have someone, which I feel bad. Like leaning on a wall. Yep, yeah. And you kind of have your shoulder or something like that. The idea is to have your mass on the bike and not be a foot on the ground or a f a hand on the counter. The other thing that uh you want to do is if you wear a backpack or hydration, anything significant. You want to have that on. Yeah, like if how you would ride. Yeah, unless your helmet is super heavy, it's not gonna matter as much. But if you've got a 10-pound pack, you know, with water in it, it's a good idea to have that. So because it it will affect it. And so you want to be kitted, uh, is what they call it. And so then you're gonna be centered on the bike and you want to bounce the bike. So you're on the pedals. Yeah, on the pedals, standing, standing up, feet on the pedals, hands on the handlebars. So you should ask me a question right now. What's that question? Why standing?
Host - Josh Anderson:Why should I be standing, Dave?
Host - Dane Higgins:Yes. Well, so a couple reasons. When you're seated on a bike, you're loading just the back and kind of unloading the front. And you want a good centered mass over the bike. Uh, you want to kind of have an equal weight. What when you stand though, you want to try and stand as natural as a mountain bike position.
Host - Josh Anderson:So like in your ready, ready position.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, now that sounds great. It sounds awesome when we say it on the radio like this. But the amount of people that lean super forward when they're doing this, when I'm when I'm setting their sag, and I always have to tell them, nope, put your butt over the back, you know, just like you're in the chin.
Host - Josh Anderson:Like so the ready position for me is like chin over, right over my stem.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, that's probably a great rule of thumb. I haven't tested that, but I'm gonna probably start looking because that may be a great rule of thumb. Uh, because too many people kind of lean forward. And again, that's gonna artificially unweight the back and weight the front. And so we want a good centered weight balanced. And then the you're gonna want to bounce. Uh that means you're gonna want to kind of shove the suspension through its travel with your legs and arms and push it to the floor a couple times. This is just to get it moving so it's not sticky, so it's not getting you a bad, a bad read.
Host - Josh Anderson:And then have someone take that phenometer.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yep, yep. And then while you're in that and balancing, which means somebody's holding it.
Host - Josh Anderson:You've stopped bouncing, you're still you slide that little o-ring up to the very top, you're under shock now. Yeah, depends on the direction. Okay, it could be bottom, but but so so it's it's completely touching the canister.
Host - Dane Higgins:The moving the moving seal. So there's a seal that moves up and down the the stanchion, and you want to put that phenometer up against it, and then if you can brace the bike so that when the person dismounts.
Host - Josh Anderson:You don't you don't compress it.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yep. Okay. And so we have a technique where we grab the frame and we kind of lift up as the person's getting off, and it kind of unweights the suspension. And that way, if they bounce a little bit, they're not moving that over. And it doesn't move the fun out there. And uh we do that on the front and the rear. Um, so doing it with a friend is really helpful. If you're doing it yourself, you may do it two or three times. Yep. And that way you can kind of make sure you're not getting any weird outlier where you bounced it or something.
Host - Josh Anderson:So then you you you're off the bike, get out your handy tape measure, yeah, and you're like, okay, how many millimeters did this O-ring move? Yeah, and then I divide that by the total stroke length on the shock, or if I'm on a fork, it's the travel. Yeah. And that'll give me a percentage. And again, for shorter travel, we're looking at 2025, higher travel 30, 35, or maybe even more if it's a downhill bike.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so and and sometimes there's recommendations if it's important. So if you don't can't find a recommendation, those rule of thumbs are are pretty easy. A pretty good rule of thumbs. And so um, so now you're measuring that stanchion, and let's say you're 10% in, that means you're not sitting far enough. So you have to take some air out. Exactly. And so figuring out when do you add air and take air out. So if you're if you're not at 20, if you're at 15, you probably have to take air out.
Host - Josh Anderson:Now I've heard folks have told me in the past that when I'm adding air or taking air out, I can't, let's say I'm a hundred psi off. I can't just add a hundred psi. I'm supposed to add it like in 25 psi chunks and between them cycle the fork or the or the shock a few times so that it equalizes the air. Is that true?
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, so it's it's true. Um, it's you don't have to get super into the details, but what is happening is the positive air chamber fills, and in order for it to equalize the negative, you have to move the suspension to where a seal moves over a special port inside and allows the air to seep into the other side. Right. Um, so if you never move it, it gets really rigid and it'll give you the wrong setting. So if you pump it 100 psi and don't do it in 25, that's fine, but it's gonna be harder to overcome that and you have to you have to push it down pretty much through 50% of its travel in most cases and to get it to settle and do it repeatedly. And that first couple times it's gonna be really hard. Whereas if you do it in 25 millim um PSI increments, it'll just make that easier.
Host - Josh Anderson:So the important thing is that as you're adding or taking away, you're cycling the suspension so that it can equalize. Yep. Doesn't necess the 25 thing is just like a you don't have to do that.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, it's what the manufacturer usually will say to get to make it easy for anybody to do. So I gotcha. Uh because I I when we rebuild these things and set them up, we have to put them on the dyno when we uh set up the air pressure, especially on a rear shock, and equalize the pressure. Because I've had people return a shock saying it's it's locked out, it's fully locked out, it won't compress at all. And I'm like, what is going on? And I get the shock back and it just hadn't been put on the dyno and equalized. So when they put it on their bike, it was so rigid they thought it was broken. But really, all they needed to do was bounce on it a couple times, and it would it would equalize and it would be fine, but they don't know that, you know. And if I'm shipping this off to somebody and they don't know that, it's it I can uh it'll sometimes show back up. So you got to equalize it, make sure you equalize it before you're gonna get it. Yeah, so we we always equalize. Um now some bikes uh you have to let the air out to get the suspension off the bike, and so there's circumstances, but yeah, that understanding that that thing is equalizing. Now, here's something uh bike shop secret. Um when you go the other way, so let's say you put 200 psi in your fork and then equalized it, which is not going to be easy for you to do. Um and then you check your sag and you're a hundred PSI off and you have to take a hundred out. The problem with that is that you need to do it really slow because that transfer port can get to a point as you're taking air out where it never gets up to bleed the extra air that is in the negative side, and your fork will stick down, it'll it'll start to lose travel and it'll stay to where it loses travel. And so when you go backwards, it's a little bit harder and you have to take your time.
Host - Josh Anderson:Okay. So take your time, cycle the suspension as you're adding and removing air so that it can equalize. Um so I think that's like the whole process for SAG. Is there anything else we need to talk about? It's super important. Make sure you set your SAG, make sure that you check it every couple months because air changes.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, and I don't know if you have to go crazy on how often you do it, but I will tell you a new suspension or even uh so when we serve a suspension, it's often softer than it was when it was new, uh more supple because we do a couple steps that make it a little bit smoother. When that happens, you may, even though I put the air pressure back into your shock, the as it goes. You may need a little more. You may need to improved the performance of the when you ride a new suspension, everything kind of breaks in and it also gets softer. And so you may start pedal striking on your brand new bike and not understand why. And it could be just that that shock is now sitting 30% in instead of 20. Right.
Host - Josh Anderson:So SAG is the first thing.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, now fork is all of the same stuff. Yep. Um with the I like your chin over the stem, uh, is a good call. Still doing the same thing. Uh I don't think there's any changes, and you still open up all your settings.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yep. So you so that's the first thing that you're setting up as you go through your suspension. Okay, so now we'll go to the next most important thing, which is rebound. Yeah.
Host - Dane Higgins:And rebound essentially is controlling how fast Well, so let's talk about where you're at. So you've set up your sag. Uh-huh. In order to do that, you backed off everything. So all of your valves, which usually limit how fast uh the suspension moves, um, are open. And so they're at their fastest point. They're gonna move as easy as possible. So and so the next step is how do you set up your suspension? Like basically, you got your sag dialed and you're like pretty solid that the sag's good. Now you gotta figure out what to do with all the dials on the thing.
Host - Josh Anderson:Okay, so the first dial is your rebound.
Host - Dane Higgins:So it should be. But it's often on the bottom of the fork and unseen. Yep. And so 90% of the people are don't ever touch it. They're gonna look at the compression. And when they buy a new damper, they're gonna think about the compression. Compression gets all of the love, and rebound gets very little. And rebound is probably gonna make more difference on the fork than anything.
Host - Josh Anderson:And that's and so like I think if you're gonna do two only two things to your fork, you do your sag 100% every time. Yep. You do your rebound 100% every time. Yeah, and and in my research, it's like that's 90% of the equation. Yeah. Is SAG and rebound. Yeah. So the next thing you're doing is your rebound. Yeah. Like Dane said, for your fork, it's typically on the bottom. Yep. Is it ever not? I've never missed it.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, it's it's so on some of the Foxes, older ones will be on the top. Okay. Some brands will color code them where compression is blue and rebound is red. Yep. Uh Manitou is the opposite. Don't ask me why. So you have a blue knob on the bottom and red on the top. It's weird. DBO's got green knobs. DVO's got green and black. And so um you you kind of have to read them and understand. Again, the owner's manual will tell you what the knobs are, so you should be able to do that. You can look it up online. There's a lot of resources. Um, so rebound, uh, what rebound does is it slows, it closes a valve or puts pressure on a valve. Um and when the fork has already compressed, when it opens back up. And so that's rebound controls how fast the fork returns to its uncompressed. Yep. Exactly. And uh so the reason that's important is because a too fast a rebound will feel like a basketball down bouncing down the trail, just bouncing off of anything with very little control, and the wheel won't say stuck to the trail. And too slow, um, you may get stuck to the trail, but the fork may not extend in between each consecutive bump, and you can get what's called packing down, where the first bump it takes, let's say, 50% of the travel, and then it's rebounding so slow that by the second bump it hasn't fully gotten that 50% extended. So now you're at 25, but it takes another 50%, and now you've got 75% of your travel, and then you hit the third one, and now you're at almost packed down, which means that it feels really harsh.
Host - Josh Anderson:It's like a it's like rigid, yeah, yeah.
Host - Dane Higgins:And so uh that usually is is something that happens at a higher speed in corners, uh, it definitely happens over rough bumps, and that's pretty extreme that that would happen. But if you exaggerate that, you know, it can really change the performance of the bike. Yeah, the bike will still will start to dip in the front, and this can actually cause things like pedal strikes. So, like if you're in a rocky terrain and your rebound is too slow, uh you can sometimes be experiencing pedal strikes because the front end of the bike is getting lower and staying lower uh as you're trying to pedal through these rocky rock gardens.
Host - Josh Anderson:So, okay, so here's a qu so so I'm getting ready to set my rebound. I got my sag all set up, get ready to set my rebound. Does it matter if I start in the front or rear?
Host - Dane Higgins:Uh no. I mean you you kind of want to balance it. And the hardest part of rebound is knowing what rebound should feel like. That is the hardest part. I don't know how to explain that to people, and that is really difficult. There's a lot of so you you have a um you have a can can you read what you wrote?
Host - Josh Anderson:Um uh yeah, I can read. Yeah.
Host - Dane Higgins:Um are you sure?
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah, I'm pretty sure. So rebound controls how fast your suspension extends back out after compressing over.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, and then it says like how to how to do it.
Host - Josh Anderson:So how to set it.
Host - Dane Higgins:Take it to a curb or something.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah, yeah. So it says here to start with the rebound adjuster in the middle position. Okay. Uh click counts from slow. Yeah. Okay. Find a curb or small bump, compress the suspension and watch how it returns. What you're looking for is if it's too sp fast, the suspension rebound rebounds very quickly, feels bouncy or pogo-like, can kick and that will result in kicking you out of the corners. If it feels too if it's too slow, the suspension will pack down or feel dead. Um what it's when it's just right, it should return smoothly without bouncing and be ready for the next hit. And one of the things I found is, tell me if this is just what I found, is if I press down on a shock, on a fork, and the rebound is too fast, and I let go, the front wheel will actually bounce off the ground.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, that's I mean, it's there's been so many people that have tried to kind of explain this to people and how to feel what it is. I get frustrated and I just set your rebound. Send you send you on the box.
Host - Josh Anderson:We're not doing that, we're teaching people.
Host - Dane Higgins:Which is really hard. Uh, so I like the middle. Uh, middle rebound is probably pretty safe for a lot of people. Um, so one thing when you're gonna go set your rebound is in our SAG process, we opened everything. So um this one said to to do it middle from closed. So one thing What is closed? Is that slow? Yes, slow. Yeah, closed means slow. Yep, yeah. And so so the oil that's closing some sort of orifice. Sometimes they're putting pressure on a a shimstack, sometimes it's closing literally like a uh uh oil port, and it's closing off the the size, and the oil can't move as fast. So when you have it open, it's moving as fast as possible, as much oil as possible. When you're closing that port, it's it's slowing down how fast the oil can move through there, which causes something. So open means fast, closed means slow. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Pa the one that trips me out is positive and negative. Yeah, because uh I don't know what that is, but you mentioned Rock Shock has like a turtle and a rabbit. Yeah. And so fast and slow, that's easy. Yeah. Uh I don't know the positive and negative sometimes throws me. Usually positive means you have more rebound adjustment. So it's slower. So it's slower and negative means faster. Yeah. That's tricky though. So because on the compressing it would be the opposite.
Host - Josh Anderson:One of the things I I've learned as well is that like your air pressure and your rebound are working against each other.
Host - Dane Higgins:Well, first of all, your air pressure, your rebound is dependent on the air pressure. That's what I that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And so that's why SAG is first. SAG is first.
Host - Josh Anderson:Okay. So for for someone like me to get the right sag, so I'm a big guy, I weigh 240 pounds. Yeah. When I I have to put more air in to get the same sag that you would get at 30 pounds less than me or whatever. Yeah. So what does that mean to for my rebound? Does that mean that I need my rebound to be faster or slower?
Host - Dane Higgins:So the higher the pressure, usually the slower you need the rebound. Okay. Because that uh especially rebound is like you said, fighting the air. Yep. And and so if it's so as your air pressure increases, the fork wants to bounce to full extension faster.
Host - Josh Anderson:Because there's more there's more air in there. Yep. So I have to use a lot of rebound dampening for me.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah. So if you are 250 pounds and your riding buddy is 170 pounds, and you're like, hey, what's your rebound setting? It they may not be the same. They won't be the same. Yeah, they they shouldn't be the same. Um so that is tricky. So when your friend is trying to help you set up their suspension, they can't always translate using those clicks.
Host - Josh Anderson:So a heavy rider like myself is gonna have a lot of rebound dampening. To get the same feel. To get the same feel.
Host - Dane Higgins:They may have to go more clicks more than a lighter rider.
Host - Josh Anderson:In a lighter rider like my wife, who weighs like 125 pounds, she has very little rebound dampening on there because she doesn't have that much pressure in her fork or shock pushing it, pushing against it.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, yeah.
Host - Josh Anderson:This is the you've explained this to me 14 times. This is the first time I've actually understood it. I actually clicked.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, yeah, I clicked right now for me. That's what it takes sometimes. So and 14 times. So definitely.
Host - Josh Anderson:So there are there are recommendations also for rebound on your with your manufacturer.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, it depends. Uh sometimes they do, sometimes again, this is very hard and it's very personal. So um I liked the idea of putting in the middle because that'll give you kind of like basically you're in the middle, you know. So you so that will keep newer riders from just going out with it fully open and bouncing down the trail or fully slow and totally packing up in the middle is probably safer, and then you can slowly change it to your ride style. So um, so the thing after SAG, we're going to do rebound before you set the rebound. I would go through and count the clicks.
Host - Josh Anderson:So you know the how many clicks so yeah, so just turn it all the way, so you've got it all the way closed.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah. Now most suspensions will have a click. Every once in a while on some of like rock shocks, they'll have a degree of turn. So like they won't actually spin completely around. They'll just have like maybe I don't know what a quarter turn. Quarter, a quarter turn, yeah. Yeah, you may not get clicks with that. But in most cases, they'll have a little wing on the thing and indicate that. Um, but you're counting the clicks, and so from full open, which is what we use for sag, then if you counted 10 clicks, you just would from full open would go five in. And then you can start there. Yeah. And then you can kind of push the fork down. Um if it's in the middle, that's great, and then you can ride it. And here's where um So what will I feel if it's wrong? So if it's fast, too fast, too fast, it tends to show up more in rougher terrain, especially corners. As the uh as the wheel is hitting bumps, it is pushing you off the ground, which kind of causes It feels like you're bucking, like you're on a bronco or something. Yeah, it's almost like a secondary hop. And each time your wheel is off the ground, it's losing traction. And so down a straightaway, you may not notice it as much, but you may get more jarring. Yeah. Uh, but as you hit a corner, you start to drift to the outside of the corner because you you don't have the traction. So what about if it's too slow? If it's too slow, you may feel that dip uh feel the front end kind of dipping down. Yeah, or it may get really harsh because you may not realize that it's packing down, and then as you're losing travel, the fork is getting stiffer and stiffer, and so it may feel really rough by the end of the descent or you know, yeah uh and typically that will take some time for it to pack down.
Host - Josh Anderson:So at the it might feel good at the top, but at the bottom it starts to feel different because it's packed in.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yep, yeah. And and so the packing down is a little harder. So uh a rule of thumb is that faster um rebound tends to cause a lively, that's the positive way that you spin that uh lively feel, which means you can pop around the trail. You can use that extra speed of that fork coming to full extension to jump to jump or pop you off of things. And so if your ride style is that you like to just kind of pop off, and every little thing on the side of the trail you want to pop off of and jump, you're gonna tend to like a little bit faster rebound. Um we have a couple riders that ride really steep technical terrain, and some of the drops they do are are negative angles, so they're they're pointed down, and then they have to pull the front end of the bike up and land on a flat landing. And they want the fast rebound because when they push that fork down at the very end before they're gonna about to hop off of this drop, they want it to spring them up so that they can land flat. And so if it's too slow, it absorbs that push and it stays down, and then they go over the parse. So the so uh your ride style will dictate. So starting in the middle is probably a really good way. As you get bigger, you're gonna be more towards the closed, and as you are a lighter rider, you may be a little bit more towards the open.
Host - Josh Anderson:The open. So and you've always um talked about bracketing and liking that process. Yeah, that's something uh give us like a 30-second explanation of bracketing, yeah.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, so bracketing is like you've done the sag, that's important. Yep. Um just on rebound now, let's stay with rebound. But what rebound would be to ride a similar, like a section of trail that you can kind of get good movement on your fork uh or shock and um or both, and you can repeat it. And then you change your setting one or two clicks at a time and repeat that section of trail. And so whether you have a very short loop that you can do this over and over again, or you have a little section where you know, like uh uh you can hike back up and then do it again, and hike back up and do it again, depending on what you're doing, and you're changing your suspension one one setting at a time.
Host - Josh Anderson:So the one of the things that I like I've seen people do is like I started let's say I st let's say it's there's ten clicks, I start at five, yeah, I go down, I kind of get a feel for what that was like. Yeah, then I add one, so I go to six. So okay.
Host - Dane Higgins:Did that feel better or worse? That's that's bracketing. Now, the only thing that I would add to that is because you're doing one thing at a time, or you know, you've got a lot of adjustments on your fork, and you kind of have to keep track of how you felt on each one. Yeah, it's a good idea to have a log or a journal of some sound. Yeah. Um, I think Fox, so Geordi at Fox is one of the ones that that has talked about bracketing and maybe coin the tr the term, I'm not really sure. I think Fox may even have a bracketing uh like file that you can print.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
Host - Dane Higgins:Uh I haven't even tried it. I just make my own because I just take graph paper or whatever, you know. Um, but basically you run one, I change the rebound, uh two clicks in or two clicks slow or two clicks fast, whatever you want to do. Did it feel better or worse? Yeah, and it was better. So then you leave it, and then uh now then round two, you do the same trail and you go the opposite direction, and it felt worse. And so, like, okay, we know what worse was, we know what the middle was, and we know what was better. Now you go two more than the better than the better. And did that feel better or worse than the better? Exactly. And so in that's four runs. You know, you're at four runs and you've only adjusted like six picks. And so that that's a process that you can use to get it dialed by the better, worse, better, worse, better worse. Time consuming, and it's what the pros do. And so when you see the pro World Cup riders out there riding their bikes, there is somebody who's doing that for them and helping them through that. And that's a big part of how they set up their suspension. And then they have that journal so that they can go back to it because you can go, okay, uh, this one felt you know too slow or like it wasn't poppy enough, but this course is really muddy, and we don't want you poppy. We want you stuck to the ground.
Host - Josh Anderson:And so we're gonna the cool thing is, I think, is as you go through, if you take the time to do this bracketing, you start to understand how what's happening and how it feels. Yeah. Yeah. And and then you develop this kind of innate understanding of what is that Dow doing on my bike.
Host - Dane Higgins:And you're learning it. Yes. So so the World Cup Pro may have somebody doing it for them and just get taking their feedback and figuring it out. Um, that's great if you can afford to have somebody do that for you.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah, not everyone's got a Dane Higgins on the side.
Host - Dane Higgins:But then if you loan your bike to somebody and they change it, what are you gonna do? Or if you you know get a new bike that's a different geometry or different setup or a different fork or whatever, you don't you're you're now paying somebody every single time. You're reliant on them. I think this is something that you if you take the time to learn. Now, here's there's a term called set it and forget it. And that is very common because this is a lot of work. And it's really common that people will stick it in that middle rebound after doing their sag and they'll just ride it. And they can. They totally can. Yeah, it they're not gonna die, like it's gonna work, you know. It may not be optimum, it may not be perfect, and it may not give let them go as fast as they want or have go as big a jump or drop or whatever, but they can ride it that way.
Host - Josh Anderson:I'm just trying to catalyze folks to take a little bit of time because they spent the money, they have the tools. Yeah, why not dial them?
Host - Dane Higgins:The tools in most cases are your fingers, right? Like you most most of the stuff to adjust it, you don't need to change anything. There is uh as we get into more adjustments, there's air volume you can change, there's a lot of things you can change. And and as we talk about rebound, we've kind of covered rebound.
Host - Josh Anderson:Well, hang on, not yet. Because I got I got more. Okay. Yeah, just just most suspension, I think, has a rebound dial, but when you get to the top end of the suspension products on some of them. On some of them, you'll have a low speed and a high speed rebound. Yeah, yeah. Can you explain the difference between those two things?
Host - Dane Higgins:That's one of the harder ones. So um it's it's basically changing how the valving acts at certain shaft speeds. And this is something as we talk about suspension. When you say high speed and low speed anything on suspension, they are not talking about necessarily what speed you're traveling at.
Host - Josh Anderson:It's it's how fast the compression or the rebound is. So so is low speed what happens uh through chatter and high speed what happens on big hits. That's how I understand it.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, yeah. Uh so imagine uh this rebound is really tough to talk about this. So there's there's it's it's gonna be hard for me to navigate because it's it's a difficult subject because it's hard to understand where they're separated and how they're separated. They're they're what they've done in the fork is they've mechanically made it so that they can change as the oil moves past either valves or orifices, you know, we talked about that. Um at certain velocities that oil will be resisted, and at other uh velocities it will be resisted. So they've been able to isolate those two things, and then those knobs are changing those things. And so as the shaft is moving faster, that is high speed, and so the oil is moving faster through the valving. Um if you're pushing down a fork real slow, that is considered a low speed shaft movement. And so then when that fork comes back up, that would be low speed. So, however, if you took your hands off and just let it spring up, that may be high speed.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
Host - Dane Higgins:And so when you separate them and how you separate them, is difficult to understand when you're gonna do it. In most cases, uh, I've found personally it's on a drop that I really notice the difference between high speed and low speed rebound. And having your suspension suck to the ground and have a low shaft speed, or even even on the high speed, you know, like chatter, like you said, um, having it stick to the ground is great, but when you hit a drop if it's too fast, it may bounce you. So um uh if you're doing a jump line, okay, and then it has a drop at the end, you may want your stuff set up pretty fast, your rebound set up fast, so that you can hit and pop those jumps. So you can use the spring of the fork to pop you. But then that drop at the end where you have to come compress, if your rebound is too fast, it will bounce you. Does that make sense? It will, yeah. So you hit the ground and then the rebounds fast, it'll bounce you, and and uh high speed and low speed rebound first showed up on rear shocks because when you hit that, if it was too fast, it would bounce you and send you over the bars. And so now they're putting it on forks too, because they found out by separating it they could fix that because there's two different styles of rebound that you need in that procedure.
Host - Josh Anderson:So you could keep your you could keep your low speed fast, which would enable you to pop, yeah, and then at a little bit more high speed so that when you take that drop, it doesn't crunch you.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, so that it's or buck you. Yeah, yeah. I think you said to slow down the high speed and speed up the low speed. Yes, for like a jump line. Yep, yeah. Okay. And now that may be one use for it. People can fiddle with it all day long and get all kinds of different results. And um the trickiest is figuring out whether or not they're making a difference, and that's where bracketing would come in.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
Host - Dane Higgins:And bracketing would help with that one even more because it's so hard to really wrap your head around what's going on. You kind of just have to feel it.
Host - Josh Anderson:So all right. So uh next, so are we good go with rebound or with rebound?
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, that's uh yeah, I think that's it. So now uh we talked about high speed and low speed. Um, so not all forks have that. Yep, most forks have rebound, almost every rebound, yeah.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah, and even like low-end forks. Like I was just setting up a Judy the other day, and it's got it's got sag and rebound.
Host - Dane Higgins:That's all it has. Yeah, compression and rebounds are the basics. If you get super low end on forks, they don't even have that, and they're just springs, so like kid spikes, you know, 20-inch kid spikes, they usually just have springs in them, and all they do is they act like suspension, but they're not really suspension. Um, once you add damping, usually having a high uh having a rebound and a compression is important. Some forks don't have that. Did you know there's a Zeb that has no compression adjustments?
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah, that's what I was just saying. That I just set up a rock shock that has just a rebound and no compression.
Host - Dane Higgins:Your Judy, there's a Judy out there with no, oh wow. Yeah, it just has the rebound on the bottom. And there's nothing on top. It's not a blank cap.
Host - Josh Anderson:Blank cap on the right hand side. You can you do set the sag and air pressure on the left, yeah, but it was it I just set it up yesterday.
Host - Dane Higgins:It's crazy, isn't it? Right.
Host - Josh Anderson:I was and I was like, okay, and then I was as I was researching this, it was like rebound and sag are the two most important things. Yes. That gets you 90% there. This is a low-end fork, and I've got those two settings. Great.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah. And we talked about how these knobs have to kind of reach inside the fork and change things, and that is one of the biggest things that drives these forks up. So if you didn't drive the cost of them up. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sorry. Uh if you did not have those, the forks would be a lot cheaper, but they would be set up for one person, you know, or one circumstance. And it would be hard to make them your own, you know. And so uh so yeah, uh compression is the next one. So compression is tricky. Uh high speed and low speed, and then you have things like lockouts, and so compression.
Host - Josh Anderson:So so let's let's let me let's start with the high speed and low speed. Okay. So uh some of them, like the fox grip damper or whatever, just has come just has one compression setting, doesn't have low speed and high speed separate.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, it has a variable like compression.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yep. So yeah. And then some of the higher end ones have two dials at low speed and a high speed. Yep, yeah. And again, as I understand it, the low speed I think of is like I'm going through a rock garden. That is what my low speed compression can do. High speed is I'm taking a drop and and I'm moving that that fork very quickly that's it's going from wide open to close when I land really fast. That's high speed compression. Do I have that right?
Host - Dane Higgins:For the most part, yeah. Low speed is tricky. Um, low speed, I like to say uh like if you have brake dive. So if you put the brakes on on your bike and the front end dives, that's gonna be low speed. And you can imagine that's not a very fast shaft speed. Correct. That's a slower thing. So if you're on a stair step kind of technical and you're not moving quickly, but your fork is also not hitting the obstacle super fast, um, and you want that fork to hold you up more and not be moving through its travel just because you're now centered over the front wheel. Uh the low speed can help with that. It can keep you higher in your travel, it can help you uh uh avoid that front end diving. Now, on every bike that I have now wait, so the reason I say that that way versus what you said, which is rock garden, is that sometimes a rock garden can cause it go fast. Yeah, sometimes you are actually traveling fast and you hit a bump hard, it'll be a but you know how I threw rides in a rock garden.
Host - Josh Anderson:So for me, it makes sense because I'm riding slow. Yeah. So Okay. Here's the thing with compression. I got my SAG sets, I got my rebound set, it's all great. Every single bike I have, I have uh three three bikes out there that I ride that have good forks on the front, good shocks in the back. I keep the compression wide open.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, so uh I'm experiencing this a lot lately. Uh I've I've I've experienced it my whole life, but lately there's been kind of this shift. And there's a particular brand, I'm not gonna name names, that is considered the best. Uh like if you were to quiz most mountain bikers and mention three different brands, they would tell you this brand is the best and this version of that. He's talking about Fox. Keep going. Anyway.
Host - Josh Anderson:And he's saying Fox Factory. Yeah, anyway.
Host - Dane Higgins:He won't say it, but I'm just gonna say it for other people. They consider it the best. I have been uh kind of paying attention lately uh to how people respond to their suspension. And there's a new product on the market that podium fork that kind of is an outlier when it comes to this. But in general. I feel like a lot of riders, majority, are really looking for a more comfortable fork that not only absorbs shock but does not transmit vibration. It's it's not necessarily that they are looking for the fastest fork that goes through a rock garden, right?
Host - Josh Anderson:You want it to be comfortable.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, you're trying to make it safer, you know, feel more controlled.
Host - Josh Anderson:You say supple a lot.
Host - Dane Higgins:And supple, yeah, yeah, exactly. And so uh the amount of people that are choosing to go away from that fox, which is the top of the line and most considered like the best, you know. Like if you yeah, like I said, if you quiz people, they will tell you this particular fork is the best, but then when they actually ride it, they may not be getting the best experience for them. And I've been it's it's made me scratch my head and kind of wonder what the heck is going on.
Host - Josh Anderson:And I'm and I've you've watched me personally do this because I've now converted all but one of my bikes to rock shock with 3.1 dampers and the buttercups because it feels exactly what you just explained. Yep. Way more supple than the Fox products that I have.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, and so I'm trying to figure out how is it that all these World Cup winning pros are on Fox or even RockShock. Um, there's DVO, is the one that I'm actually talking about. It's not actually the RockShock that you're on. We're selling so much DVO right now, it's insane. It feels super supple. And people are pulling these Fox factory forks. These brand new top line suspension is coming off brand new bikes, and we're putting different suspension on, and the customer feedback has been amazing. Uh, and I it I'm scratching my head. This this is these are$1,200 forks, and people are pulling them off and putting on this other suspension. It's actually less than$1,200. It is barely, but currently there's a sale, so that maybe that's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's part of it is the sale. But for the most part, the ride quality feedback is what I'm paying attention to. Because sales come and go, and prices don't really matter. If you get a product and you got it on sale and it rides like dog crap, it doesn't matter how cheap it was. It still rides crappy. Yep. Um, what I'm noticing, here's what I'm noticing in all this feedback that I I am just kind of constantly cultivating people. Tell me what you think, and I get texts like crazy. Um what I've seen is that Fox is designing their product based around their feedback from their pro riders and really focused on making their suspension at the competitive level, at a World Cup level, top-notch.
Host - Josh Anderson:And that's about going super fucking fast, not about being comfortable while you're doing it.
Host - Dane Higgins:Well, at a certain speed, the fork needs to have different characteristics, and at what they're doing with that suspension, they are willing to compromise some of the things that none of us going that speed want. And so if you are a World Cup pro and your fork is I I've worked on World Cup forks and they are stiff. Like they are way too stiff. Like I feel like they're locked out when I'm on them, and I'm a big boy. Um, what it is is at 40 miles an hour, hitting a rock as hard as you can, you can't have it bottom out. It the bottom out is way worse than not having a little bit of suppleness. Does that make sense?
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah, yeah.
Host - Dane Higgins:And it needs to be predictable and it needs to be consistent, and I think that is what we're seeing. And I think what's happening is the market is is kind of seeing other options and starting to to react to I'm not that guy. I I am I'm on an e-bike, I'm 65 years old, I'm just having fun, and I don't want to be feel feel beat up. And his buddy may be telling him or her that they need to get the fox to feel better, but it's just not doing the job. And so compression, uh, so if we go back to the conversation, your settings for you make total sense. You want that suspension ticket to be stuck to the ground, not send you flying, and be comfortable and controlled and I'm not a poppy rider, right? I'm more of a monster truck rider, right? Yeah. And so um, and I'm that way too. I race mountain bikes. I do change my settings all the time. I'll change them on depending on what travel or what um trail I'm on or where I'm at. Um if I'm jumping, it's totally different than if I'm racing. Uh if I'm racing and there's very little jumps, uh, it's different than if I'm in a race with jumps. So there's I'm constantly changing it. And so compression settings are something that you have to kind of dial in.
Host - Josh Anderson:And so compression in general, just we've never defined compression. So compression is limiting or controlling how fast the shock or fork actually compresses. Yeah.
Host - Dane Higgins:And remember, it's oil moving through some sort of orifice or pushing on a shim. Yep. Uh and so that oil is moving at a certain speed. So in a low air, lower end fork where you only have one compression adjustment, it's it's controlling both the high speed and low speed. And they may not have, they may have them separated. Sometimes a fork will have a high speed and low speed circuit in the fork. But not have controls. Not adjustable, yeah. They'll they'll kind of make them uh a ratio? Yeah, yeah, it'll be a ratio as you open it up, it changes. And they do adjust, and and believe it or not, rebound can actually adjust compression. So as you slow rebound down, uh there is a certain level as you're making rebound uh slower, you can actually make the fork firmer. Uh and so because there is a certain level. A big thing with uh Fox is what's called piston balancing, and they're balancing those two aspects, you know, basically.
Host - Josh Anderson:The compression and the rebound.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, because if they fight against each other, it the fork does weird stuff, and so they're learning, you know, all the time.
Host - Josh Anderson:So you can do the same bracketing technique that we just talked about with rebound with compression. Exactly absolutely, yeah.
Host - Dane Higgins:And and the bracketing will give you a much better result than sometimes talking to your buddy, hate to say, um, or you know, uh, you know, watching a YouTube video with your favorite pro and finding out what their settings are.
Host - Josh Anderson:Because it's so dependent, the right settings are so dependent on your ride style, your weight, the bike that you have. Absolutely.
Host - Dane Higgins:And it's even the suspension.
Host - Josh Anderson:The brand that you have, like all that stuff is so so you can't just copy what your buddy's got. You gotta dial it in for yourself.
Host - Dane Higgins:Now, if we use this podcast to to make this a uh kind of help people actually adjust those things, understanding low speed and high speed is is key. So understanding, I think we've gone over the shaft speed. So people understand that's the same for compression. Yep. Now instead of how fast it comes up, it's how much it compresses.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
Host - Dane Higgins:And then the low speed is again that slower shaft speed. Yep. And so in most cases, I would say uh brake dive, um, slower technical rides, keeping the fork higher in its travel is low speed, uh, does most of that work. And then high speed is going to be those big impacts, those fast ones. Big drops. Yep. And so it does uh it does have a faster um speed, uh high high speed compression adjustment when you are hitting obstacles really fast. So if you are descending a lot or downhilling through rock gardens, you may be adjusting your high speed more, even if you're not doing drops. Uh, but on the drops are where it's really easy to tell. And that's that's why people talk about that all the time. I have one friend who will go out to one particular drop with every new fork that he gets. He rides that drop until he gets it adjusted how he wants it, and that's his bracket. Has baseline setting. Yeah, he's bracketed, but he's using an obstacle that he can easily access, and it tells him what he needs to know uh without actually doing all the writing and all of that. He's he's already done that in his head. And so anytime he gets new suspension, he goes to that same place, does the same drop, and literally just dials in his fork on that one spot. And and that's that's bracketing. That's really what that is.
Host - Josh Anderson:So that's fine. Okay, so so we've got SAG, we've got rebound, we've talked about compression, low speed and high speed, and all that. One more okay.
Host - Dane Higgins:So sorry, I keep adding, and we're gonna go over in time, and I apologize, but this is big subject. Uh we can. We can we can. It's not like PG. Do all this work and cop cut a bunch of stuff going. So uh the big thing is is um how I I would love to have a couple symptoms. Okay, so we talked about packing up on rebound and bouncing down the trail or drifting uh through a corner, not holding your line. Um on compression settings. Yeah, what are some symptoms that would cause you to change the if it's too soft uh on a hard impact, you're you're basically blowing through too much travel. So you're gonna bottom out. Yeah, so let's say your sag is perfect and you're riding your trail. Absolutely love the sag, but you hit one obstacle and it feels like you're bottoming it out. Other than that, the fork feels perfect and you don't want to change your air pressure, you know, because uh if you're bottoming out your fork, first place we usually go is air pressure. Uh that's usually what you talk about if you're bottoming out. But if you're doing everything perfect and just this one event, that could be easily remedied with compression adjustment. If it's a drop situation, chances are you need high speed. Just a couple clicks at a time, maybe ride that section over, make sure it's that's what it is, and that will help quite a bit. And then the low speed is a similar situation if you're riding and the the bike feels kind of like it wants to pitch you over the front, uh, especially on a technical descent. Uh that's something where you can fiddle with the low speed and kind of see if you can get it to ride higher. Uh you you it does low speed does make the fork feel firmer. And so you do need to be aware of that, you know. And again, you may be in a situation where if you're putting so much low speed on that the fork just feels too slow and it's not compressing very well, you may have to back it back off and then check your air pressure. It may be an air pressure thing. Yep. Because they go hand in hand. And so but those are two scenarios where that may help you understand where they can be.
Host - Josh Anderson:Those are super great ads. I'm glad that you cut me off and did those.
Host - Dane Higgins:Okay, I really appreciate that. I love cutting you off.
Host - Josh Anderson:That wasn't that wasn't uh sarcasm. That was honest okay. One other question, I think just one more thing that I want to get into. Okay. And that is volume spacers.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, wow, this is a tough one. Okay. Uh so we talked about how uh rebound and compression can actually act against each other. We talked about if you're uh having a bottom out event that compression may fix it, but we may have to change air.
SPEAKER_02:Yep.
Host - Dane Higgins:Um so volume spacers are an adjustment in air that can also be adjusting uh your it they can actually affect your ramp rate. Your your ramp rate, that's a great word. Uh I haven't used that. But basically your small bump compliance, if the fork doesn't feel like it's got good small bump, one of the ways uh that you can adjust that is take a volume spacer out. It's actually add volume spacers and drop your pressure a little bit. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. Now the tricky part is you don't want to drop it so much that your sags off, because that changes the angle of the bike and and it's not where you want to be. Um usually if you're wanting small bump and you've already got your compression settings wide open and you're still not getting that small bump, that's when you start messing around with volume spacers. Um that is the small bump. Like you're riding through the parking lot and you're feeling like every little pebble. Like it just does not feel like it's just rolling over those pebbles. That is different than going through a rock garden. Uh, rock garden is definitely going to be more compression settings. Small bump is that initial 20 to 30 percent of travel that you use. Yep. So if you have 20% sag, it's 50% of your travel, but it's just the first part of it. So um, so what volume spacers do is as you take air pressure out of your fork, you can bottom it out. And and so you don't want that. Uh so if you are trying to get it more supple, making it softer makes sense, right? I'll just make it softer and it will it will be more supple. Uh the problem is you could bottom out. And so you may ride your regular course and you may find that you're bottoming out. You can add volume spacers at that pressure. Uh you have to record your pressure, and then you have to pull a fork apart, right? And then you have to pull a fork apart. Uh you just have to unscrew Well, it takes us in in a lot of cases, it takes a special tool. Yep. Sometimes it's a common tool, like RockShock has switched to using the cassette lock ring tool. Yep. And so that makes it easier. Those tend to be in more toolboxes. Uh for Fox and some other companies, they take special flattened, uh no non-camfered uh sockets. Yep. And so it's not necessarily just a quick and easy trail side thing. So because you're now exposing something that you do not want to get dirt in.
unknown:Yep.
Host - Josh Anderson:So this is something that you do back at the garage, not on the trail. Preferably.
Host - Dane Higgins:If you're gonna uh we've done it at races where we do it at the bottom of the hill and and stuff, but you know, you you you have to clean the fork off, make sure it's not super dusty out, you know, just protect those internals, pop in the volume spacer, put it right back on, you know, just keep that stuff from getting and this is in the air chamber on the left side typically of your fork. Yeah, the air chamber and the positive air chamber.
Host - Josh Anderson:And are there volume spacers on shocks as well?
Host - Dane Higgins:Yes, yeah. And so um there's volume spacers, and then some shocks will have on air shocks, they'll have so there's no volume spacers, by the way, on coils.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yep.
Host - Dane Higgins:So um on coils you get kind of basically screwed? Well, no, not at all. I mean, I I'd say we sell way more coils than air. Honestly, I sell way more coils. Shocks. Yeah, rear shocks. Yes, yeah. The forks, not as much because there's a weight penalty, and the one-to-one ratio has been a little bit more forgiving. But what happens with air, because remember we talked about how you know you may have a 65 millimeter stroke that is getting you 160 millimeters of travel. Yep. So every movement of that rear wheel is multiplied by that ratio. And so it is harder to get that to feel plush sometimes. The fork is one to one, so ten millimeters is ten millimeters, and so the air chambers on forks are a little more tunable. Uh, a lot of bikes benefit on coil depending on what you're doing with it. But um we a lot of people say, Oh, only downhillers run coils. And I would tell you that 90% of the coils that I sell are to people that want a more comfortable ride.
Host - Josh Anderson:I've got coils on two both of my big travel bikes.
Host - Dane Higgins:You put the DVO coil on, and that and I won't go back. Yeah, it's it's it's definitely more comfortable. If you're uh on your epic, I wouldn't put Yeah, I wouldn't put a coil on my Epic. No. It's your your um your what your weight ratio is more important on the Epic than it is on the Gorilla.
Host - Josh Anderson:So Yep. All right. So uh we talked about SAG, we talked about rebound, we talked about compression, we talked about volume spacers. Um I want to run through a couple like like hot take, okay, quick, quick, quick response here. Tell me if this is true or not. First is a list of what what uh I've captured here are common beginner mistakes.
Host - Dane Higgins:Okay, cool.
Host - Josh Anderson:Running too much air pressure because you're afraid of bottoming out is a common mistake.
Host - Dane Higgins:Is that true? Absolutely, yeah. The sag will help with that. Um but if you're bottoming out and you've done the sag properly and checked it, um and you're still bottoming out, that's when you start looking at the possibility of volume spacers. Right. Or your procedure on sag may be off. Remember, I told you you you you gave a good point of chin over stem. Yep. Um if somebody's leaning too far forward, their SAG measurement uh be the opposite. If they're sitting on the saddle and not waiting the front fork when the sag has been done, then they're putting more pressure. Yep. And so they may not even be bottoming out, uh, but they may be running that fork way too stiff and not getting the travel. And that's when kind of looking and dropping that um o-ring, that phenometer, every once in a while, just drop it at the beginning of the ride and see where it is at the end of the ride. If you're getting full travel, that's good. That's good. That's what you want. If it's halfway, you're missing out on a lot of comfort, a lot of stability, and a lot of control. Yep.
Host - Josh Anderson:So all right. Uh next common beginner mistake running your rebound too slow because it feels stable initially, but will actually pack down and lose performance in the ride.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, I I feel like I see the opposite when I'm setting up suspension. Because when we dyno this stuff, we're dynoing it at the pressure that you would ride it. And so I can kind of feel it. And I would say that I a lot of feedback that I get uh when people are happy with what we do has a lot to do with the fact that we actually go pay attention to that and I make little tweaks. Uh so remember the story about the guy who's doing the negative drop? Yep. Well, I slowed his suspension down and he crashed and he got mad at me. Yes, I'll never forget that because what I did was adjust his suspension how I liked it. And so I don't get carried away with that uh anymore. He taught me a lesson. That was 20 years ago. Um, he taught me a lesson and I don't get carried away, but I will go through and tweak some of the settings if they're just way off. So or I'll put a question mark on the work order, and then when the guy's This doesn't feel right to me. Are you sure you want this? It it'll just be like 110 PSI, you know, and a question mark, and then that will tell me when the customer picks it up, hey, I noticed your suspension was set up a way too stiff. Is this how you normally ride it? Did you ever do SAG? And then we'll kind of tackle it from there.
Host - Josh Anderson:Right on. All right. Too much low speed compression because they're trying to eliminate pedal bob.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah. Um, so uh the people that buy suspension with high speed and low speed compression don't tend to mess with it as much. What is really common is somebody will get a lockout and they'll ride that fork with it locked out all the time. And they don't understand that that fork is mechanically needs to compress to pump oil up to the bushings. And this is something that can hurt the fork. And so having that conversation with a Strava guy who's like trying to get the fastest times and really doesn't even want a suspension fork, would ride a rigid if he could. And you can, by the way, just go get a rigid if that's what you want. You can, but you're either not, you're faster with the suspension fork. I know, I know. They don't know it because they they the sense of being jarred makes them feel fast. And the sense of being smooth slow. But you're actually faster. But they're faster, yeah. And that's been shown through data many times. Yeah, go look at your Stravatime boys. Yeah. Um, but uh they are trying to lock that thing out every chance they can. And uh one of the coolest things on the market right now is this stuff called flight attendant, which we may have talked about. We have. It's an automatic setting. Any racer who wants to have their suspension locked out all the time. Really needs to spend the coin and get flight attendant because the flight attendant will actually adjust it's stupid expensive. Uh but it it adjusts your suspension based on what's going on in the truck. Automatically. You don't have to touch anything. You just focus on racing. You focus on your heartbeat. You fake a lot of people.
Host - Josh Anderson:And flight attendant is the rock shock. But and then Fox has one called Live Valve.
Host - Dane Higgins:Live Valve has kind of been retired, and now they have what's called Live Valve Neo. Gotcha. And so far we're seeing that the Fox Neo stuff is more gravity oriented. It's for almost like Enduro riders. It gives you plush and super plush almost.
Host - Josh Anderson:Okay. And so like it basically And live valves or uh flight attendance more for like cross-country racers.
Host - Dane Higgins:It's like locked out and then kind of open. Okay. And so they're kind of two it's kind of nice because they're separate now. They're not trying to do the same thing. I I have my theories on Neo that they're gonna have more versions come out. But right now, if you like your suspension locked and you want the most efficient suspension, that flight attendant's pretty insane.
Host - Josh Anderson:Right on, man. All right. Um we talked about changing too many things at once. We talked about forgetting to check SAG regularly. We don't need to go in those. Uh okay, a few pro tips. Um, keep records of this stuff.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah, yeah.
Host - Josh Anderson:Write it down.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah.
Host - Josh Anderson:So you know. And I have not been good with that. I got 16 bikes in the in the stable out there, and I bought this little book that I'm gonna use to write everything down.
Host - Dane Higgins:Bike shop secret. Um, when you're checking your air pressure, uh-huh. Uh put your pump on. Look at the cage. I've been doing this. Uh pump it to where you want it to, write that down, but also write down what the pump said, take it off, put it back on. See how much it lost. And see how much it lost. It's going into the thing. Keep that in mind so that when you do go back and check your suspension, you're not artificially thinking that it's low. And so and and so an example would be if you hundred 100 PSI in your fork, and when you put your pump on, it goes down to 80. And then you're like, oh, I had eighty in there, and then you put it at eighty and it will be too soft. So if you've determined a hundred is where you want to be, then when you put your pump on and it reads eighty, write that down. And then in a week, if you put that and then by the way, then pump it back to a hundred and pull your pump off, and it'll now be at a hundred. But next week when you check it, if it's at eighty again, you didn't lose anything. And so that's important to understand that whenever you connect a pump to an air system, some of that air goes in there and you will lose that pressure. So so you've got to be aware that if you're checking your pressure all the time, otherwise you'll drive yourself insane thinking your suspension's leaking. So okay.
Host - Josh Anderson:Makes sense.
Host - Dane Higgins:Okay.
Host - Josh Anderson:Uh start simple. We talked about this proper sag and rebound gets you 90% there, one click at a time. Make sure that you're matching your front and your rear because you don't want them working against each other. And conditions matter. Yeah. The t the trail you're on matters. And once you learn how these things work, you can actually real-time adjust for the trail that you're riding. Yeah. And again, I've seen Dane do it, and I've seen many other like what I consider to be you know very skilled riders do that.
Host - Dane Higgins:Yeah.
Host - Josh Anderson:Did we get through all that? Fucking hey, we did.
Host - Dane Higgins:Holy crap, man. And we're hour twenty three, but I think that's a good thing. I don't got to cut anything. Otherwise, we would otherwise we'd have to do three of these. You got any yeah. Final thoughts for our listeners. Uh, there's way more, and we'll do more uh specific stuff in the future. I want to do I want to do start.
Host - Josh Anderson:I want to do a little bit on um on coils. Yeah, coils.
Host - Dane Higgins:We didn't get to it today, but I want to do a little on coils in the future. Yeah, and on if you want a coil or what when coils make sense.
Host - Josh Anderson:Yeah, we should do just an episode on coils, like why, why, why yes, why no, and then how do you set it up? Yeah, what's this spring thing and all that shit? That'd be that'd be a good episode. You got any final thoughts for our listeners here, buddy?
Host - Dane Higgins:That's it. I'm tired of talking.
Host - Josh Anderson:All right, man, me too. Appreciate you, man. Appreciate you all. Take care.
