Mountain Cog

121 - Stability, Breathability, & Heat Release - Orange Mud’s Unique Take on Hydration Packs & Business (Josh Sprague, Orange Mud & Seven Clay)

• Josh Anderson & Dane Higgins

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When Josh Sprague couldn't find a hydration pack that stayed put, ran cool, and didn't feel like dead weight on his back, he built one himself. Fourteen years later, Orange Mud offers unique solutions to the endurance and mountain bike markets. Sprague joins Josh & Dane this week to explain what makes Orange Mud's Endurance Pack different from everything else on the market. The conversation covers pack geometry, upper-back placement, heat release through open side construction, and why he's convinced that waist packs — no matter how trendy — will never be the answer for serious trail riding.

What makes this episode stand out is the business conversation layered underneath the gear talk. Sprague is one of the more self-aware founders you'll meet — he's honest about the money he wasted early on, the challenges that have hammered small outdoor brands over the last few years, and the somewhat accidental creation of Seven Clay, his custom embroidery company that now runs bigger than his original business. He and the guys also get into retail strategy, the dangers of constant discounting, and the one metric — average order value relative to conversion cost — that Sprague says every entrepreneur needs to nail down before they go all in.

Orange Mud (Hydration): https://www.orangemud.com/

Seven Clay (Embroidery & more): https://sevenclay.com/

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Cold Open And Autocorrect Mix-Up

Host - Josh Anderson

So I got no dad joke today. Well, but I do have a joke. Okay. All right. Well, maybe it's not a joke, it's just a funny story. Okay. So uh, you know, you've been like super busy. Yeah. And uh, you know, the shop's blown up, you guys are it's it's awesome, doing great. And but you're down staff, and so you're like, you know, you're working a ton. Yeah. So I'm trying to be like really sensitive to that and try to stay away and not demand any more of my time your time than I need. So uh I had heard I knew you were gonna go up to Haas Festival yesterday. Yeah. And so Dane's like, he texts me on the way over, and I'm like, hey, did you end up going to Haas Festival yesterday? Because I didn't see you post anything. I thought you would have posted something about it. And uh and all I heard, all I got back from you was Um, I will tell you, I'm on my way, I will tell you when I get there about hospice. And I'm like, hospice? What the hell's going on, man? Who's in hospice? And you're like, no, it's uh it's a Hawfest. A Hawesfest. That's the autocorrect. That's the auto-correct.

Host - Dane Higgins

Talk to text refuses to know what Hawes is. That it gets it wrong all the time.

Host - Josh Anderson

All right. So so we've got a uh this is an interesting thing for us. We're doing something we've never done before. We have a guest. Uh his name's Josh. I'm gonna call you other josh.

Host - Dane Higgins

That's a nice name.

Host - Josh Anderson

Because my name's Josh.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, I go.

Host - Josh Anderson

Every Josh is other Josh.

Host - Dane Higgins

You gotta be good if you're a Josh. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson

But Josh Josh runs a couple companies, um Orange Mud 7 Clay. Uh, and we're doing something that we've never done before, which is that we are actually doing an interview, a podcast with someone that has a product and companies that we've never heard of before and we've never actually used. And that's unique. And I want to before we get started, because we get a lot of requests, a lot, a lot of requests to for folks, small companies to come on the podcast.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson

And we don't ever say yes unless we've used the product and we can stand behind it. But I want to just explain to our listeners and to you, Josh, like why I was like, when you wrote me, I was like, oh, this would be cool. Um first and foremost, I have not been able to so I live in in the in the in southern Arizona. We live in southern Arizona. Yep. Hydration's a big deal. We ride 365 days a year. It gets really effing hot in the summer.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson

Um I have yet to find a hydration system that I like. I've tried everything. I've tried all the different packs.

Meet Josh Sprig And Orange Mud

Host - Dane Higgins

I've tried um we're talking systems, you mean like it's got to be a backpack or carrying a bigger page.

Host - Josh Anderson

Any way to carry water, I've tried everything out there. Water bottles and cages, all kinds of stuff. Yeah, water bottles. I and and effectively what I do is I pregame, I drink a ton of water before I ride, and I bring a couple bottles on my bike because I don't want to carry anything. So um and then I looked at your your system. And it's one that I it's it's a it's a type of hydration system that I've never tried before. And just just by looking at it, it intrigued me as an interesting option for mountain biking. Um so reason number one. Reason number two, um you are a small business owner with a huge entrepreneur entrepreneurial spirit, best I can tell. Yep. Um and so I love we love that stuff. We get into that stuff.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, we like the business side of stuff.

Host - Josh Anderson

The business side of stuff. So we thought that would be cool. Yeah. And the third reason why is uh you've done a podcast. So I knew and you had your own podcast with 70 plus episodes, and I still thought I knew this wouldn't be a shit show.

Host - Dane Higgins

I don't think anything, I don't think any of the ones we've done have ever been a shit show.

Host - Josh Anderson

Well, the ten that we haven't published because they were shit shows.

Host - Dane Higgins

All right, all right, all right, all right. So which by the way, I don't know, I don't know if everybody knows, but those are for sale now for under $1,000. Yeah, anybody wants an episode. 100 an episode.

Host - Josh Anderson

Anyone that that wants an unreleased episode, you have to do PayPal or Venmo.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yep. Uh and uh andor cash in person with that.

Host - Josh Anderson

That'd be a gift, not a business expense.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yes, yes, exactly. Yeah, it's not a tax break.

Host - Josh Anderson

So so Josh, I had to do that um for our listeners because it's unusual. Um and it just in the spirit of full disclosure, like we haven't used these products, um, we don't know much about them, and we're gonna learn about them collectively together. Yep. And I'm gonna try one. Okay. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Cause uh because I'm excited.

Host - Dane Higgins

Sounds good. I I kind of deep dove a not deep dove is bad. I I I committed 30 minutes of my time. It's like that's better than nothing. It's probably a lot of time. Actually, it was about an hour and a half because I listened to one of your podcasts too, and and so the gist that I got was that you kind of started this business uh because you were looking for hydration yourself and more running than anything, and weren't finding anything. And I my my one of my old businesses that um was really heavy triathlon business, and I've seen all kinds of different things, some similar to what he has, but triathletes are always trying to figure out how to and runners, runner specifically. Stay hydrated, yeah, stay hydrated without having these heavy packs or or things. They've got like water bottle holders that go on their hand, yeah. You know, like with velcro strap and stuff, like all kinds of crazy stuff. And so I'm interested to see how you moved from making a running product and then made it made it for mountain bike and how how it's different.

Host - Josh Anderson

Let's let Josh introduce himself. Tell us a little bit about let's start with Orange Mud. Tell us a little bit about the company, what's going on, and in your backstory, Josh, and we'll shut up. And also, the reason I didn't say your last name is I didn't want to butcher it, so maybe you can Sprag, right? Is that right?

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah. There you go. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, pretty much.

Rethinking Hydration: Stability And Heat Release

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

All right, go for him. Yeah, go for it. Sprig Spragoe, but Spragwee. Yeah, so yeah, Josh Sprig is my last name. But yeah, I've been called Spragooey Sprague Spriggy. Uh this week I've been called John and Adam and Bob, I think. So it's been it's you know, I just kind of roll with it. I don't really care. Never have them like, whatever, you know, whatever floats your boat. I answered a that guy, I guess. But uh um, but yeah, you know, I I started it uh 14 years ago, as of well, as of January, and um, and it largely started from dealing with the fiery orb of the desert of Arizona, and then I you know spent 11 years there and and I hated the heat. So everything I built, I built it as small as possible, but I built it to get heat off of you, and then I hated the packs that would swing around on you and drive you crazy. And and so I spent a lot of time stabilizing everything. And and that's really what makes this totally different than most everything else on the market. Most things on the market attach in the front, and you have to uh use that to apply pressure to be able to get them stable, where mine really anchor on the on the front of your shoulders and they wrap around, and that's the only the most important part because when you breathe and your your lungs are expanding and contracting, that piece doesn't move, the front does. And so we've we kind of figured that out somewhat by dumb luck in the beginning, and um, and then have just rolled on that platform ever since. And it's been a lot of fun. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson

So it's like maybe um for our listeners, because we we've we obviously have seen and know about the product a little bit, but maybe just explain like like what does the product look like? How does it work? What's your design philosophy?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Sure. So yeah, so we we have bottle-based, we started with running hydration packs because I uh I tell people all the time it's ironic that we own basically a running company because we we started and run, so we still have a giant portion of our audience that are runners. Um, but the bottle-based packs um was the whole premise. I wanted to be able to quickly manage fluids while during a triathlon, a marathon, a trail run, whatever, but that doesn't work for mountain biking very well. So the mountain bike side, we took the same principles in terms of stability of a hydration pack, uh, but then added in a two-liter bladder for our first product, which we launched at uh Unbound, which was at the time dirty Kansas, and then have since used in countless mountain bike races and everything. So everything we do is really designed for endurance athletes. And athletes is kind of a loose definition to me. It's about getting people outside. And and you know, whether you're the slowest person or the fastest, I don't really care. It's it's about getting people outside. And and uh uh but yeah, everything we do we build to be tough too. It's not gonna, you're not gonna break it. I don't care how rough you are on gear. I design around that because I don't want somebody to say your gear sucks just because I did a bad job not over over designing something. So we purposely over spec everything with redundant failure points and whatnot. So it's designed to take a beating.

Host - Josh Anderson

So maybe explain to I think the endurance 3.0 is like the flagship mountain bike product is dealing with that night. Can you this is like more of a vest?

Host - Dane Higgins

Is is it 3.0 or is it are you at four? Yeah. 4.0.

Endurance Pack Design And Fit

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

It's yeah, it well, it's so it's uh yeah, three, the three version three, which is what 3.0 is, but yeah, it's uh four liters of total cargo. Gotcha. Um and then a two-liter bladder is what's in there. And yeah, that one like I've you know ran up to 100 miles. I mountain bikes up to 100, I've I've gravel bikes up to 700 and 20 uh racing with it, and it's equally great on each one. Uh, but I that one is is the flagship because I a two-liter is probably the most common demand that people need. Um, and when I built it, I just laid the bladder on the table, filled up, and then I drew a piece of paper around it, and that's how I began my patterns, and I just started sewing it together until I got a version that worked, and it took two years actually to get it to work right. Um, because I had some other packs that I set as baselines that if I couldn't be better than them, I wasn't gonna make it. So it took me quite a while. Um, I actually gave up on it for probably six month period, and then uh one day I had an idea and uh yeah, rest is history.

Host - Josh Anderson

So it's it's more of a vest than it is a pack, would you say? How would you explain it?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

So I generally define vests as those that wrap around the side, and even though, yeah, ours is a vest too, um, I I would say normally a backpack is um front harness and then the back. Right. And and you may or may not have a chest strap up front. But basically a vest normally wraps around the side. Ours doesn't do that. So we have just nylon straps on the side of that pack. And the cool part about that is that it allows more heat release. When you have the wrap, the traditional wrapped around style pack, which we have that, it's called the RFP. Um, it's it's it's there is a noticeable heat difference versus most of our other flagship products because I purposely didn't want that heat there. You know, if you're cold, where do you what do you do? You cross your arms. When you cross your arms, I didn't realize this in the beginning, but you have kind of these thermal bands there, and that heat from crossing your arms is warming your core and and it still stretches over to the side of your body. If you put your palm on the left side of your your body, you'll feel that warmth really fast, more so than putting it on your chest or on your belly. So by having them high and by not having that there, it gets the heat away. Uh, which I mean it's a big difference when it's 100 degrees and or hotter in the summers around Texas and Arizona, Florida, California, all these hot areas. So um, yeah, yeah, it's a little bit of both, I guess, is the easiest answer.

Host - Josh Anderson

And you and you're carrying that pack high on the back, not low like some of the other packs. And is is the is the um bladder horizontal or vertical then?

High-Ride Placement Vs Waist Packs

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

No, it's vertical. So and and the reason why it rides high is that in in testing it, well, so my background was adventure racing, and I got to just sit there and spend a lot of time staring at my teammates' back. In adventure racing, you you race together, right? And so I I noticed that when you look at the cervical and and even kind of the upper thoracic area of your back, um, it doesn't move. It it the the center portion of your back and your lower portion, your lumbar portion of your back, it all twists. And especially your lumbar area, um, like mountain bike packs, for example, the waist packs, you know, I have one. I'm designing it. It's pretty cool, but uh it it'll I can't imagine any scenario that would it would ever make it ideal for if you truly care about stability, no scenario will ever make sense for a mountain bike waist pack. Will you look cool and you'll look like you fit in in uh you know in the Pacific Northwest or in Flagstaff? Yeah, you will. And and and so you know, we're working on it, but to me, as a guy who cares so much about stability, I don't want to feel that water moving. Um, it's a brutal area just because of the geometries that are at play, such as your hips, you know, have a twisting motion. They also have a lag motion in a mountain bike, and you take a corner really hard, mountain biking, um, you're gonna have that that water following behind you essentially. And so as your body is already maybe changing in an S corner, um, the water is still going one direction when you're going another, and you're gonna feel that. And where you won't have that when you ride up real high on your back because it's tracking 100% with your forward movement. So there's there's definitely reasons why we did that, and that being the biggest, but but again, it also gets heat off your body easier, which is why we put it there.

Host - Josh Anderson

That's awesome. And and it's it's also got some so in addition to the two-liter bladder, you can fit other hydration. There's there's uh like on the on the chest straps, you can you can fit like water bottles.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Is that yeah, soft flask. Yeah, yeah. Some people put water bottles. I personally don't like water bottles uh there. And and the reason is up front, the splashing will will drive you crazy. So we use soft flask.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, the soft flask a lot of people use for like a goo or uh energy drink, things like that too. So the little ones, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that that's kind of nice to have it right there, especially for longer rides. I use a hip bag now and I do it because I don't like stuff on my shoulders. Um, and I'm not I'm not sure. I I kind of want to try that again because the hip bag you it it kind of uh infers that you should have hips, and I don't, so because I have a dad bod and so it's like straight down, and so like every time we stop at a corner, I have to cinch that thing more and get it back up on the the mid back so that it won't fall down and like hang off my butt like I'm sagging. So um I it's definitely I don't like my hip bag that much. It's just been I've been trying for a while to get stuff off of my shoulders, but I don't know if that's because I don't like the packs. When you I do a lot of aggressive riding and when I'm coming off of things, I end up They're bouncing around? Yeah, it hits me in the back, yeah, if it's not strapped down, and and so I'm kind of curious to see how this thing holds it a little higher in center and not not slappy.

Host - Josh Anderson

I mean, I feel like that's one of your design philosophies, right? Is like this no bounce concept, right? So yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Yeah, it you it won't move. And I tell you, it's it's pretty cool. The first time I took it out on a mountain bike ride, um, I I went through this real kind of twisty little curvy trail. And what's neat is upon going through the curve, you feel it just track right with you. And I don't know if you guys have ever say maybe rode your full squish bike, but then you go jump on some hardtail that's super, super fast, and it's the same thing. When you go through a corner, you'll all of a sudden you'll feel like the bike kind of bouncing going through it. But you ride a hard tail and sometimes it feels like the bike's trying to take off without you when you come out of a corner. And and that's the same scenario when you when you switch from riding with packs that are that are dancing around versus ones that it's just tracking with you. It it makes a tremendous difference. Yeah, and and again, like the waist pack, I'm sure when you're hitting the the chop the chunky stuff, you're gonna feel that mass back there bouncing. Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, it drives me, it drives me nuts, uh, honestly. Yeah, it's brutal. Because again, it I have to constantly cinch it. The there's the been this big revolution in bikes to take off everything off your body and put it on the bike. And because I have multiple bikes, I just have not found that practical because I don't want three sets of tools for every bike, three sets of hydration, three, you know what I mean? And and so the pack has always been something I counted on because I can move it from bike to bike and I don't have to change the bike or unbolt it exactly, or you don't forget your water bottle, you know, because you've got your tool bag or tool pouch, but you don't have your water bottle. And so I've always loved packs better because I've always had multiple bikes and they can move from bike to bike.

Host - Josh Anderson

So is there room inside in is there room inside this pack for uh some tools?

Chest Storage, Soft Flasks, And Real-World Ride Feel

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, the the endurance pack got designed to be pretty minimal, so it doesn't have a ton of tools, uh tool storage. But if you want to put in a tube, uh, you know, multi-tool, uh hand pumps, CO2s, whatever, yeah, you have room for that. But I personally I like to put a good seat bag on the bike and have my my tire ready stuff for that bike just because I bounce it around between bikes and and uh between you know 27 plus and 29 and 700. Uh so I I have that there, and then what I have on my back is just fluid and some backup nutrition and maybe some electrolytes and chap six sunblock and wait.

Host - Josh Anderson

Do we just meet someone that's still riding? Did we just meet someone that's still riding a 275 plus?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Probably maybe they still exist. I see them in the shop. I am they do. Yeah, yeah. I I am primarily 29, but but yeah, I do have one in the garage. So 29 is is my gym.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah. I still like 27.5. I just had three in the shop last week. Did you? Yeah, and so it's I think it's still a valid size. Now there's this push for mullet. Yeah. So like his uh, you know, his pointing out that different bikes need different like size tubes. Yeah. Now um with the TPU tubes, they're so small, you could have like a 29 and a 27 in the same size as one.

Host - Josh Anderson

And then pretty soon it'll be 32s. Oh god, man.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, I did just watch that video. I hope not. Yeah, it's coming. I saw that. It's coming.

Host - Josh Anderson

I hope not. GMBN's got a really good um uh YouTube video on the bike nerd that just came out in the last week, and it's got a bunch of the guys that it's got the faction bike studio guys on. I wonder where they've got Ken Avery from Victoria.

Host - Dane Higgins

All the all the people we've talked to are a bunch of guys on that we've had on.

Host - Josh Anderson

Um I'd like to talk to Dave Weagle. That'd be cool. Yeah, we should we can reach out to him. Yeah. Um all right, man. So okay, uh we'll put a bunch of links in the show notes so that folks can find you. Um it's just or orangemud.com. Um that's it. So just a little bit more on the product, and then I've got some business questions for you. So, like uh so uh 150 bucks, is that right?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Yeah, exactly.

Host - Josh Anderson

And primarily sold through your website?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Retail stores either uh are pulling in those that are just gonna ride with their kids, or um, you know, maybe the ones that have the racers, we generally have found they just go and they they want to do the research online. So we've just never for better or for worse, not pushed too hard on the retail side. Uh we have one product that sells all over in retail, but as far as hydration packs, um we just find that it's the thing that most shops don't focus very much on. Sadly. I wish they I wish they did.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, I mean I can give you a lot of things.

Host - Josh Anderson

Do you guys do you guys so Dane owns a shop, Guru Bikes here in Tucson? Do you guys sell a lot of hydration packs?

Tools, Tubes, And Multi-Bike Logistics

Host - Dane Higgins

So when a rep comes in with uh something, a hydration line or something, first thing I do is Google it. And if they're all on sale on Google, you know, like I get a bunch of you know, Amazon or Google or it's on some clearance website or Jensen or something like that, then we don't we don't bother. It it uh I would say that um you're right as far as a lot of people looking for packs are looking for that that one thing that makes a difference to them, yeah, and that's hard to like nail down. Yeah, and so we tend to focus on products that are more focused on having just a supply chain that's that's focused on IBDs. And so if bicycle district, yeah. And so that becomes difficult because uh we don't have a huge wall of like 17 different styles. Right. You may be able to find something like that REI, but at REI you're usually going for the one that's on sale and cheap. And so it it you know, the retail market's kind of weird. What what we tend to do is what we use and believe in, we may have. You may have.

Host - Josh Anderson

And then we're you guys have you guys carry a couple packs, right?

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, well like we were pretty into Osprey for a long time. We're starting to look at Evoch a little bit. Um I sell like their helmets, right?

Host - Josh Anderson

Evoch helmets.

Host - Dane Higgins

No, um evok does a lot of like um a lot of like protective bags for your bikes for travel and stuff, and they're really cool. And their packs have a feature that is really cool for us because we do a lot of high-end mountain. They have uh you can put in these uh back protectors into their packs. Oh, I gotcha. So they're almost like armor too. So now we stay away from big brands like Camelback. And Camelback makes a great product, they're kind of like the Kleenex of Hydro Packs, and um we stay away from them because they do such heavy discounting online. You can't compete with that. As soon as they change a color, you just go online and get that old color at half off. And and so that's just frustrating and and doesn't help us at all. So and it devalues that customer that paid full price. You know, that customer came in and bought a pack for 140 bucks. If he sees it two months later for 50 bucks, it's it's a slap in the face, you know, and so I I can't I can't support that because then we get hosed and we look like the bad guys. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson

So Josh, do you guys sell on Amazon as well or just through the website?

Retail Realities And Pricing Pressures

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

We do. Yeah, yeah. And we so we built our business on specialty retail. And and so like we we don't and my background wasn't retail coming into it. So on my side, um, I I have always cracked up when I go to shows and people are like, Well, what do you be launching in the spring? I'm like, Well, I don't know. Trying to think. I'm like, let's see, what when is that next shipment coming in? Like, you know, I think it's coming in April. I'm launching a new product in April. They're like, Oh, yeah, what's your what's your one after that? I'm like, I don't know. The one I haven't ordered yet, I guess. I mean, and we we've never had that and we I don't have seasons on our products. That's good. The endurance pack. This is its second year, I think. But but we we sell things until they sell out. And then I probably just reorder. Or maybe I'll come up with a new version. But um, but yeah, I mean we've had we just had our our I don't know, probably fourth or fifth shipment of endurance packs come in. Um that's just not how I build things. I think it's stupid and and and then it it teaches consumers like, okay, I'm gonna that one's brand new. I'm gonna wait until it's on sale for 50% off in four months, and then it screws you as specialty retail because no one really cares that you want to sell for full price, they just want it cheap. Uh and and the brands, it's where I've always it's always been a frustrating thing to me because I've I've told my wife many times, I don't even know why I care so much about specialty retail, because they don't most don't care, to be honest. Most don't. They're like, well, I know all these other brands discount online, but you know, I'm gonna carry them anyway. I'm like, well, there's a reason why you don't sell any of that category, right? I mean, when I can buy X product at 50% off right now, yeah, it's nice that you're supporting local community, but no one cares. So we it's it's been one of those things that um that that I I can appreciate your struggle because you know, even on my side, I as a small business have sponsored a thousand, uh probably more than a thousand trail runs, mountain bike races, triathlon, whatever. Um, but most don't ever give much back. Most don't even hardly do much to help out. And then and there's and then you know, there's there's not even hardly any promotion or anything you get from it. But yet then you see, you know, some big name brand, they'll chime in and and uh sponsor the race, but they won't even show up. Like we actually have shown up. It's just bazillions of races over the years. So it is it is it's the industry is kind of funky. I mean, obviously, we've gone through in the last 14 years since I've started this business, uh, an enormous change in e-commerce with with how consumers buy, but um, you know, we're still very grassroots business. That's still how I prefer to grow it. And for better or for worse, uh it's just been you know, it's been the growth model. But um, but yeah, we we don't have a you know, let's get a new product out and bomb out all the rest of the other stuff. When we get rid of something, it's because it wasn't selling very well.

Host - Dane Higgins

I think that's smart. Like uh, you know, again, if I reference our outbound uh podcast.

Host - Josh Anderson

Yeah, outbound lights, if you hadn't heard of them, though.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, they're sweet. Yeah, we like those guys. Their philosophy is not to just run them on sale all the time because they kind of realize that actually hurts their own product, you know. Yeah. They don't they don't do a product life cycle, you know, they don't have a new color every year for marketing. Like I I think those are smart business moves that some of the big players need to pay attention to.

Host - Josh Anderson

I think there's a trend.

Host - Dane Higgins

I think we're gonna get out of like yearly bike models and help get more into versions and and and like you said, if you change something significant and it comes out as a new product and it's improved and you're gonna discontinue, then that discontinue product is no longer gonna be hurt if you then discount it, you know, and get rid of it. Right. Um you're not hurting your own product, you know. But every time these companies have a sale to let people know about their product as their marketing thing, it devalues, and that product is no longer worth and people it's not a hundred dollar product, a fifty-dollar product at that point. We have a bike in the shop right now that is the hottest bike in the world. And I will tell you, no joke, the hottest bike in the world. Amplo.

Host - Josh Anderson

He hates it when I say the actual product, yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins

Uh trying to be covert and not tough, but um, this thing sells without us even trying. And it and then the they're putting it on sale. And I'm just like, why? Why, why? And they're running out. I'm like, so you're not overstocked, you know, and you're running out. Why are you putting them on sale? I don't understand that. Like uh I I I have a business degree, I've done a ton of business. I still don't understand that philosophy. And all I know is bean counters have way more uh power uh in the marketing department than they should. Yeah, you know, I'm a bean counter, so that was like a slight dig at me. Yeah, it was a dig at all. It was not at all. Um it's really the the people that are like looking at like I need numbers to improve every month no matter what. And they don't really they don't really think about how it will affect the long-term you know value of that company.

Host - Josh Anderson

All right, so before we get super deep into the business stuff, because I feel like I feel it's slipping into that. Yeah, we're going that way. I just want to make sure, Josh, is there you know, outside of the so I've I've highlighted the endurance three 3.0 pack, and I'm excited to go try that. And thank you for your perspective there. Um, are there any other products you want to highlight for our mountain bike audience that you can do?

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, or or or in general, how is that 3.0? Like what is it about your pack that a mountain biker wants to hear? Like what is your like uh is your selling points?

The Transition Seat Wrap Story

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Yeah, stability, breathability, um, heat release, and carry your phone up front, nutrition, whatever you need. I mean, ultimately we don't need much when we go for a bike ride. I I'm sure like I had the old camelback mule forever ago when I when I lived in Arizona. Yep. And that thing was we had a three-liter bladder in the back, and I always filled it up regardless of how long I was riding. I could be going for 45 minutes and I'd take three liters of water, which is stupid. And and and it's just because you can. It's just like yeah, the bigger house you get, you're just gonna have to put more crap in it, right? So it's the same thing as backpacks. Two-liter forces you to um, I mean, it's plenty of fluid for most people, you know, generally a three to four hour ride range. Maybe in July and in Tucson, it's a little bit different, but uh but it it forces you just to say, okay, I don't need to pack everything because I have space. It it's it is more of that everyday ride and race pack, but it's so rare that I don't need it's so rare I have to use a different pack to carry more crap, unless it's gonna be cold. So so yeah, stability, breathability, uh carrier essentials, and it's great for race, everyday ride. Um, and then the other um I mean we have multiple packs that are good for it, but uh the other thing that I love is a transition and seat wrap, it's a changing towel and seat cover, and everybody needs one to change. It's awesome.

Host - Dane Higgins

I saw this thing. It like uh it it has like a like a loop that goes over your headrest, right? Yeah, exactly. It's so cool because when the trailhead. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson

So I get off work, I can go change out of my work clothes, yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins

And and it's rare here that we're muddy. Yeah. Um, but like when I ride an angel fire, we always do that south boundary trail, and I think six out of the last ten times, it's been muddy. And then you can drape this thing over your seat and sit on it, so you're not just ruining your car seats. Yep. I I saw it on your website and I'm like, I'm gonna have to get one of those.

Host - Josh Anderson

But you said it was a changing thing too. So I imagine you can also wrap it around your body and I can not get a indecent exposure ticket. Yeah.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Exactly. Yeah, so I I was I was mountain biking after work with buddies of mine in California years ago, and um, and at the time it was all dirt parking lot when we were biking up to Cleveland National Forest. Well, um, one night we're out there and I'm changing from my business clothes and to my kit, and and I look over and I see like this five-year-old girl girl pointing at me, and I was like, oh shit. You know what I think? I was naked next to my car, and I had just had my son, and I was thinking, man, she's gonna tell her mom, mom's gonna call the cops. Next thing to know I'm gonna be getting a decent exposure ticket. I'm not gonna be able to drop my kid off at school for the rest of the life, and and like all these things. I'm like, I gotta fix this. And I'd already taken an S-Work shoe bag that I sewed onto a towel, and I was using that to put over my seat. And so I got home and I started messing around with ideas to be able to use uh to integrate a belt into it. And so, yeah, it has an integrated belt for changing so you don't get the indecent exposure ticket, but then it has a zipper, you zip that up and it creates a pocket that slips over your headrest. And so whether you're dirty or bloody or sweaty, um uh anything, it just keeps your seat nice and clean. And it's it is the one product that you'll use, you will always use, and it doesn't matter who you are. I mean, if you sweat and if you live in Arizona, you need it. Like, period. Yeah, it doesn't even matter. You go golfing, you go biking running, it doesn't matter. You you don't want to, yeah, I'm sure you've all sat on your seats and you're like, oh god, this is nasty. Or you have your nasty friend sit on your seat and you don't want that either. So you put that down.

Host - Dane Higgins

We just did uh Haasfest yesterday yesterday, and uh we were up there and I was in the back of my van. I I didn't have the seats because we were gonna store bikes in there, and I'm on the floor like butt naked trying to change. Yeah, and exactly and just because you don't want to drive two hours to Phoenix in your chamis, and definitely don't want to do it after the ride. Yeah, right. So, like, yeah, I I gotta tell you, I like that. Now I saw you you had one made for a company that was selling your stuff with their name on it. Do you do that as a customizable project?

Why Seven Clay Was Born From Spite

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Project we do, yeah. So that that we have done for, I don't know, um probably a thousand stores um and clubs and teams and everything. So yeah, we embroider, it's actually why we started our second business. I hated all the local businesses that we were outsourcing to to embroider and screen print. So out of spite, I started my second business, Seven Clay, six years ago, uh, to hurt them, but also just because I needed it internally. And and uh now it's bigger than orange mud. So it's been a good, a good thing. But but yeah, we embroider and screen print logos on there and and it looks really cool. It's just a cool way to get some extra marketing and uh for brands and have a little bit of a lot of things. We even work with like concrete companies. Like we got we got a concrete company we worked with for 10 years that buys them just to give away to their clients and and I guess staff.

Host - Dane Higgins

I don't know, I don't ask, but I could see that construction thing the way that it drapes over your your chair, like if you're doing anything, you know, yard work, whatever you go to the dump to dump your yard clippings, you can throw this over your seat so you're not getting it trashed, you know. It's really cool exactly.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

So yeah, and it's it's been fun.

Host - Dane Higgins

It's not a seat cover that you gotta spend 20 minutes trying to stretch on, you know. It's something just you could have in your trunk or you know, a side pocket and just pull it out when you need it. Right on.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

So exactly.

Host - Dane Higgins

Well, I didn't even see that product.

Host - Josh Anderson

I'm glad I asked that question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was one of my questions was like, Why did you start Seven Clay? And you kind of just was it really just was it this product that caused you to call start seven Seven Clay?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Seriously, I only did it to hurt people. That's it. 100% spite. I was angry. I was very angry.

Host - Josh Anderson

What were you angry about?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Just terrible quality. You know, I I employed a full-time employee just to clean up embroidery work from other shops. Jeez. And and it's I didn't know better. I'd argue with them, and my background was manufacturing, so I knew better, but I I I argued with them all the time. Like, I don't understand. Like, there's these loose threads. We're sitting here, we got to trim every single one of these freaking products that you deliver. And they're like, Josh, you don't understand. I remember the first guy told me you don't understand. Uh, half inch is the acceptable thread length. And I was like, No, like there's no acceptable thread length. Like, it trim it off, burn it. And that's what we did. And I had a full-time employee up until eight years ago. Well, now I have a whole bunch of them full-time employees. But when I thought I started my own business, I was like, this is insane. And ours comes off almost perfect. Now, granted, I bought the best machines you can buy, but at the same time, uh, they come off almost perfect, but we still go through QC and make sure everything's perfect. And and it wasn't hard. I was literally better than than any shop that I'd outsource to uh by the second day. And it wasn't because I'm a genius, it's because I simply made a slight effort that didn't take very much because I didn't know anything. I just spent a bunch of money on a machine, and then I told my digitizer, I said, Hey, I I I see what you did. And this was a logo we ran for for uh a chain that has 400 stores, and and uh so we ran it a lot over the years, and and I said, I want to improve upon this, I want to improve upon the density, and he's like, Oh, it's gonna make the runtime go up. I'm like, it's a minute 45. I'm like, if it goes to three minutes, that's fine. I don't even care. And he's like, Okay. And so we did, and it's been perfect ever since. And we've taken that same uh premise to everybody. So embroidery is kind of funny. It's uh uh it's it's a tool that that really is neat and it's so common. You know, we have you have them on your hats, I have it on my hat right now. Um, but it's it's what once we got into it, we realized the barrier to success is so low. We can just make a slight effort and be better than almost everyone. And then we make a huge effort and we can just dominate, and we have, and that's where that business is is its monster now. So it's uh it's awesome.

Host - Josh Anderson

Well, this is interesting because we uh we've been jumping around to different you know embroidery shops to help us here or there. So we're gonna have to try it out, man, and we're gonna we're gonna put your money where your mouse at. Yeah, it's I guarantee it. Like price-wise, are you competitive or are you slightly higher based on your quality?

Quality Control And Custom Hat Economics

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Well, yeah, no, we're competitive. I mean, you can find like a $10 hat on the internet. And some of those people, I mean, good luck. We we bat cleanup on those type of orders all the time. Um, but I tell people all the time, like, man, if you're spending $500 on some hats, make sure they're gonna look good. I mean, it's crazy how people try to save $50 on a bulk hat order, and and then you're giving away something that looks terrible. So yeah, no, we're we're competitive. It's like 12 to 20 bucks for a hat, depending on how many you're gonna buy and what brand and everything. But but yeah, we do embroidered hats, leather patch hats, silicone uh um you know, DTF, everything. It's everything under the sun. But um, yeah, we become a major brand in hats and made products for Red Bull and Lifetime and all kinds of you know fun, awesome.

Host - Josh Anderson

And that and and just it I think it's interesting to hear you talk from an entrepreneurial perspective. Everything that you've told us about that you have um brought to the world has been because you had a problem that you wanted to solve, and you're and I imagine you're like, I bet you other people have this problem too. And you just went and created the solution. It's I think that's a brilliant, yeah. That's a brilliant way to approach the world.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, you you won an award in 2019, didn't you?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Uh I've got a few of them over the years. Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah. Yeah. I thought that was really cool. You know, a lot of times we're, you know, success doesn't always mean award winning. Award for what award for what? What are you referencing? It was uh entrepreneurship. Okay.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

So yeah, yeah. Yeah, we yeah, I was in Entrepreneur Magazine of uh one of the top emerging entrepreneurs of the year or something like that, and that was cool. And Runner's World featured my transition rap I was talking about. It was many years ago, but they featured it as uh uh Gear of the Year, and and it was none, it was unsolicited. The editor actually bought it and called me and asked me if he could put it in the magazine of Gear of the Year, and I was like, uh, okay. Yes, I was waiting for like, eh, it's gonna be twenty thousand dollars. And it wasn't, I didn't pay a penny for that. It was awesome. We landed 160 retail stores the month that that went live. That's it, and it was actually what what brought us to be a brand because everything I've done has been innovation, which is in theory neat, but you don't get there's a lot more penalties for innovation than there is reward because it takes an incredible amount of time to educate people what innovation is. Like, how does why does this work and how is it different? Why and and if you're used to doing something one way, if you're used to tightening backpacks in the front, but a mind tightened from the side, I have to teach every single consumer that. And so there's I I've learned there's big penalties for for innovating, but it has a delayed effect to the reward. Um uh but yeah, we we've we've definitely learned the the hard way um for better or for worse with these things. But once we got that runners world gear of the year, it put us on the map, and then people started listening more and and and putting a little more effort to to dive in, and then it hit a crowd effect to where now we don't have to educate people near as much. And we obviously put our best foot forward to educate as much as much as we can on the website too. But um, but yeah, we've had the the crowd effect to really take over ever since.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, a lot of people are resistant to change. It's interesting, right? Even if it's better, they're just resistant to the change.

Host - Josh Anderson

So I I've never heard it phrased that way, the penalty of innovation. But I can like even in my business, my my day job, like we've got some products that are game-changing, but because they don't look, smell, feel like things that the customers are used to, they're resistant to it. As a matter of fact, we've got some products in country and they've sat in warehouses because the customer didn't even know how to use it.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah.

Innovation Rewards And The Runners World Breakthrough

Host - Josh Anderson

And it could have made a germane different outcome to the situation if they had used it, but they didn't know how to. That's a whole like a whole hype cycle thing.

Host - Dane Higgins

I'm convinced that's why you like Germano and not RAM. Why is that?

Host - Josh Anderson

Because it's better.

Host - Dane Higgins

No, because it's afraid of innovation.

Host - Josh Anderson

No, it's I'm in love with tiny or with Japanese manufacturing. Right.

Host - Dane Higgins

All right, we have to go there at some point. Yeah. Oh god, yeah. That'd be awesome.

Host - Josh Anderson

Yeah, Wade's over there right now.

Host - Dane Higgins

Is he? Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. Yeah. One of the local guys here is just uh posting about taking his wife to Japan and we're all jealous.

Host - Josh Anderson

So it looks super cool. So all right, so um some entrepreneurial questions. So uh Steven Clay's bigger than Orange Mud at this point.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson

Wow.

Host - Dane Higgins

Double. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson

Double.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah. Wow. Well, I think everybody could use that service, right? Any anybody who wants something customized. Yeah, it's not a niche because it's uh mostly customized and promotional products. Is that what is that fair?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

It is, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And we we just I mean, I love making things. And I used to run before I started Orange Mud, I ran a big CNC machine shop. And I love to make things that I I I uh it's why I like Seven Clays so much because we have embroidery and spring print, laser engraving, DTF, and and we have full cut and sew. We make all kinds of crazy products and cut and sew, and and um uh and it's neat because I can have something I need personally, and then I'll be like, hey, Mariana, will you uh stitch this up for me? Or you know, Jen or whoever it's a shop. I'm like, I it just depends on what resource it is. And so it's kind of neat, you can make all this fun stuff, but we also get people that come to us and say, Hey, can you do a better job than this? And because we find there's a lot of really picky people in this world. And some people I'm nervous to work with because they're so picky. But yeah, even so, you know, we take great care, especially with the extra picky. Uh, but but we get a lot of people that come to us and say, Hey, here's what I got from you know what we're used to getting vendor-wise. Can you do better? And and and it's almost always like, Yeah, gosh, I mean, the like I said, the bar is really low. And so it's neat to see how excited people are, you know, are just from just basically doing your job. But but ultimately, you know, we we slow things down. My whole team, they're all psycho about doing everything perfect. If anything, you know, they'll ask me sometimes, um, you know, Josh, we've scrapped all these. I'm like, why? Those are fine. What is wrong with them? And and they're like, well, this one thing was just off just a hair. I'm like, okay, fine, you know, whatever.

Host - Dane Higgins

Do you do you um in one of our conversations you were talking about bikepacking a little bit? And um, have you I I did not see anything, I didn't deep dive, but I didn't see a product that you're doing for that yet. Have you thought about that considering you've got bikepacking right now? The bags, customized bags and bags for bikes are huge right now. And they are it's a little niche and a little bit of story behind them that tends to be what people talk about is like, oh, this person hand stitched this, or it's made from recycled materials, or this is made in you know, in Portland or whatever. And uh I feel like you have probably all the tools to actually hit that mark of decent. Uh, have you looked at that?

Made In USA Ideals Vs Global Manufacturing

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

We do, yeah. And I mean, I build myself really cool ones for my bikes, but um uh I have what a design for a frame bag called the suspension bridge, and I've meant to bring it to market to ever or forever, but it's incredible. There's zero movement, full frame bag, it is absolutely incredible. I've done an incredible amount of uh uh bike with it. Um, but you know, the the the complexity is is the bike geometry, and there's so much variability between sizes as well as geometries. And um I I I I've just decided it's best left to the people that want to focus on that niche. You know, I it's too too small, unfortunately, because I would literally just basically dedicate my sewer to that, and there isn't it's tough. To do things right, yeah, to do things right, I need to have the exact measurements, and I don't believe most people are capable of getting the exact frame geometry to me accurately in a way that we could make affordable to make it perfect. And I and I I just refuse to ever make anything unless it's perfect.

Host - Dane Higgins

So we're starting to we're starting to see um manufacturers start to integrate them. So Trek has a new bike that they're starting to put packs on. And uh I think Ibis did that for a little bit. They got that little weird triangle in their frame, and they would have their own packs. I feel like that would be a good idea.

Host - Josh Anderson

That's the way to do it is to work right with the big company so you get like a guaranteed volume.

Host - Dane Higgins

Well, yeah, you got a certain amount of numbers that makes it worth it.

Host - Josh Anderson

Zach right geometry specs and all that stuff.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah. Or yeah, or I like we were talking about that bike earlier, a particular bike becomes really popular and they don't have that, and you can you can monopolize because I'm on a lot of owners' groups on Facebook and stuff, and I'm constantly hearing what people want. And so these AM flows that we got in, the amount of people that are asking for a frame bag that fits that bike. And so if it made sense, you know, to make a version and then you were to be able to just send it out to AMFLO owners, you know, get it in front of them, which uh nowadays with social media it's easy easy to do.

Host - Josh Anderson

Yeah. Well, if you ever want to do something with that design, Josh, we've got a great episode with Campfire Cycles. They're they're based in Tucson, but they have a huge online presence. I think they're one of the biggest um distributors of bike packing product uh or to or retailers, online retailers of of bike packing products. So I can make an introduction there if you're ever interested in you know maybe selling that IP or something. Um, you know, if if you got something unique, uh he may be interested. Can't we go back to the bottom?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Yeah, that would be that would be neat. I'd say inventory is brutal.

Host - Josh Anderson

Yeah, all I need is like five dollars per bag you sell.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Yeah, exactly.

Host - Josh Anderson

In perpetuity, and yeah, we're good.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

No, it's it is, it's brutal. You know, inventory is a hardest part too, and um you know, we I mean, we do have like my endurance pack. I mean, I Used it for bikepacking. What I when I what I love about it is that I just run fluid in it and my phone up front and nutrition. I mean, it could be pickles, Snickers, you know, freaking slam gyms and paydays, whatever. But I love it for that, but just the essentials. But yeah, otherwise, I should probably make a handlebar bag and I should probably make I do have a frame bag. It's just not necessarily a bike packing frame. I look at bike packed a bike packing frame bag as this thing is gonna be the kitchen sink. It's gonna have everything. And then, you know, like the rear, my rear seat bag, it would work great too. But I I actually designed one that's like a it's like a size of a flip ball uh that goes under my seat for me personally, and that's what I like. I don't like the big swinging dongs out the back of these giant seat bags. Some of these that I bought some of those, and man, they're too long. They just you feel it like lagging behind you, cycling, especially when you've been biking for a few days, and you feel that thing swinging but you know below your seat, you're like, man, this isn't good at all. So I built like a compressive football size bag that's just killer. But again, it's such a niche thing that I mean, maybe we produce in the US, but God, it's expensive to produce in the U.S. And and you know, people tell me like I used to produce in the US when I started the business. That's what I did. I was all about American made, and that's what I'm gonna do. And I produced everything by number one supplier to U.S. Special Forces, British Special Special Forces, and and they were great. But people will tell you they want made America, but when it comes down to it, they want it cheap. And uh by and large, and and I'll never forget, I had a big um vice president of a big company that liked our products, but he told me, he's like, Josh, you're you're naive and an idiot if you think anyone cares. And I remember thinking you're a prick, but he was right. It took me like a year, and I realized he was totally right. No one cared. Like, I like my my seat cover, we saw the waterproof for 50 bucks. And uh I could produce it in the US and I could sell it for 80. But if you could get the exact same thing for 50 and you had a choice, you would probably buy it for 50.

Host - Dane Higgins

Right.

Marketing Philosophy And Paid Conversion Math

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

And and I also didn't have a business model that was really able to scale. I had no external distribution until I moved everything overseas. And I went to Vietnam because I I hate a lot of other places in the world that have bad quality. Vietnam has been flawless. The quality is is unmatched, uh, anything I've ever had. And uh uh and since I did that, we ended up creating margin room where we had a wholesale channel. We had external uh uh exports for distributing around the world. And otherwise we didn't have that. It wasn't an option. And and I think a lot of people, myself included, as a consumer, you don't appreciate the struggles of American-made business because um you're you're definitely isolating yourself to only a US market if you're in in most cases, right? You're not creating enough margin room to be able to be an export. And then uh, which I was I'm very proud of. Every time we export something out of this country, I'm like, uh, I'm doing one one step to help out GDP. You know, I just think it's cool. Um, but you know, again, I'm the only one that probably does, but to me it's cool. But but it's something that that um uh after doing that, we can we can help grow our reach and grow what we are as a brand and around the world, which I thought was pretty cool. So so yeah, it's there's a lot of uh challenges to uh to run in a business with doing Made America, but we still make some things, and obviously everything Seven Clays is made at our shop, but with Orange Mud, we unfortunately have the majority it's made overseas.

Host - Dane Higgins

I I think in uh our market in in cycling in general, there's uh a pretty understood that there's a lot of foreign built stuff that is better. And yeah, the US. At least that's good. At least that's good. Yeah, I mean better.

Host - Josh Anderson

Uh like I would say, I mean you would say Taiwan, like the Taiwanese.

Host - Dane Higgins

Taiwanese carbon is definitely better than US carbon. And and I hate to say that. You know, I had a customer once uh 20 years ago, and she was um her name was Chloe, super awesome lady. And she would not buy anything that wasn't US made. And she had very strong. Actually, that's not true. She was very anti-China. Anything it had to be not from China. And um she was very, uh, very, very passionate about that. We ended up doing a custom bike because uh we found her a candile at the time which was made in the US, and then we had to put uh everything on it, right now, so she could not afford I mean she had to spend extra to get to to feed her passion. She's one of the few people that I've seen that really held hard to her beliefs. Yeah. The other I see people all the time that are strong in their beliefs, but then we'll go buy something off Amazon or Tino or AliExpress, you know, uh, or they'll go to Walmart and buy like the plastic crap, you know, like uh 90% of your.

Host - Josh Anderson

Yeah, I love that you like made the USA but 90% Ford Power drive in the right.

Host - Dane Higgins

Yeah, like they made it on one rocket and and then their cabinets are full of everything else. And so like there's a certain level at which you know your your your morals and ethics kind of end when your budget uh comes in, and so uh but then there's a misconception like in your world and and in cycling world where you think if it's made in the US it'll be better. And if you pay more, it'll be better. And that's not always the case. And and it can be in some things, yeah. Uh knockoff, you know, when you're dealing with companies that are not very good um you know partners or they're literally trying to rip people off, you know, and that does happen. But a lot of the products that we're getting in the States from China, Taiwan, you know, Vietnam, where all these are really high quality.

Host - Josh Anderson

I mean, the perfect example of if you pay more, it's not better is tram and shimano, right? I mean you pay more for tram, and the shimano stuff's better. Not stuff better.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Shimano XT brakes are my absolute favorite brakes. There you go. I will say, yeah. But I do run tram for drivetrain, and I haven't really gone back to Stavano forever.

DTC Headwinds: Ads, Shipping, And Platforms

Host - Dane Higgins

And we have this debate all the time. And because I sell both. I'm I I try to be neutral and I I try and ride everything. And Josh is a it's it's well, he's a zella, but he's also a consumer in the in our relationship. I'm the I'm a vendor and he's a consumer, and so he can make that choice. You know, he can he can have an allegiance to one over the other. But for me, I see the good and bad in both, and then I try and pick the best that performs in my eyes for whatever specific.

Host - Josh Anderson

Exactly.

Host - Dane Higgins

And so I gotta tell you that you know, I don't, I'm not I'm not a slave to any one brand, but there is some brands that are clearly kicking the ass of others. You know, what I noticed lately um this came up yesterday at the Hotfest is uh just realizing how much you can have an amazing product that is clearly better, but if they don't make the marketing uh a thing to everybody, it will get overshadowed and people will buy the shittier product. And that is something that I'm just you know, I I was in business school. I realized that in business school that you have to market your product, but I always have this kind of back thing that the true good product will prevail.

Host - Josh Anderson

Will stand on its own.

Host - Dane Higgins

And that's not the case right now.

Host - Josh Anderson

So Josh, what's your philosophy to advertising and marketing?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Oh God, that's uh it's a love hate. That's that's what it is. It's a love hate. But um I I would say I mean it's a big question, but but ultimately, um I want to show real people using our products and and tell people why it's different. I mean that's the premise of what we do. But uh, but our our philosophy has been growing our business through um you know digital media, Facebook ads has really been what put us on the planet. Um and we just want to educate people as far as you know, do good things, get outside, use good quality products, they're gonna last a long time. Um, you know, that's that's been my whole kind of basic approach to, I guess, advertising strategy. But is that is that answer that question? It does.

Host - Josh Anderson

I have you may not want to answer some of these, so just say, hey, listen, I don't want to answer that. But like, what percenta What percentage of revenue do you put towards advertising for Orange Mud?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Yeah, more than I often want, but uh it always feels that it it it it really is. It's it ranges from 10 to 30 percent. Oh my gosh. Um and yeah, it's a lot. And so I mean, again, we are largely direct to consumer and have been for a long time. And um, when I started this business, our average conversion cost was in the six to twelve dollar range, maybe up to fourteen, and that was to me bad at the time. And to define that to people that aren't maybe in the space is that it's if I spend uh money on advertising, it it takes 14, let's say 14 to to get somebody to buy something. And that could be a backpack, could be a towel, could be whatever. Um, anymore, those costs are 14 would be actually awesome. Right. Now it's like 14 to 30. And and 14 would be like a dream come true for for Orange Mod. Uh, but largely we're talking $20 to $30 from an advertising perspective on a Facebook platform. Um anymore, we are pulling more and more away from Facebook just because it is more interest-based where we're doing more search intent, which is Google. And and there we do have uh generally a much higher conversion value and lower conversion costs, but uh it's still pretty, pretty brutal. Um but yeah, and then from there it's it's uh you know, podcast and grassroots events. That's been our our kind of our our tag of approach to get things going.

Metrics That Matter: AOV And Cost Per Conversion

Host - Josh Anderson

So we did an episode, I don't know, three or four or five episodes again, uh uh ago where I took a look at kind of direct-to-consumer and like the explosion of of the direct-to-consumer business model across multiple different markets and like and like why it blew up and then talked about why it's struggling right now. There's a number of DTC companies that are going out of business across many different markets, um, you know, uh including the bicycle industry, right? I mean, we just saw Canyon is a is in why T went under, Canyon's in deep trouble. It's a whole bunch of we have they're all yeah, we've got a whole episode about that. But one of the major uh uh impact uh or reasons for the struggle is the the difference in the privacy rules and the um costs that have gone up from from meta effectively. That oh yeah, you kind of live through that, right? So you say your conversion cost you know almost doubled or whatever.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Yeah. It's an it's it's crazy. And you know, yeah, so last year, for example, I felt like a I felt like a punching bag because you've got Facebook expenses just went ridiculous. Google went ridiculous, uh shipping expenses went up like three or four times last year. We had increases. And everybody expects free shipping, right? Because Amazon does free shipping. There's a cost to free shipping. Like there's there's a reason why you pay $100 for something that costs a lot less. You've got to pay for all the advertising expenses, the professional athletes that these big brands sponsor uh the selling expense, platform expenses. Um, but but we had um our our email program. We used we used to use Clabio. I I said down sand because they over doubled my rates. I was so freaking mad. I was I was with them for like 12 years, and I'm a very loyal guy. I don't change unless you screw me. And and I'll forever say Clabio sucks because even though it's a great platform, uh the way that they just doubled, like over doubled rates for everybody was was criminal. And and especially at a time when we're getting we're getting hit with tariffs, we're getting hit with with uh uh shipping increases, platform increases, uh every dang app on the planet. I mean, you name it, it was it was mayhem.

Host - Josh Anderson

So this is the first time I've heard about shipping increases. Like, what's the root cause of that? What caused that to happen? Do you know, Josh?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Inflation. Well, yeah, inflation for sure. Yeah, I mean, inflation, fuel costs. I mean, when those go way up, yep, yep, they they go up. Of course, now the fuel costs are down, but of course they don't come down. No. Um, and and it was even crazier than just the simple um increase in costs. It was at FedEx, like we had a shipment that we overnight, it cost like $500, and it didn't get there in time. And they were like, Yeah, sorry, but we're not we're not covering that anymore. So you just have to deal with it. And and I think they now have brought that back, if I'm not mistaken, but they bought a lot of time from post-COVID. COVID on, they had a lot of like, yeah, we're not we're not insuring anything, even though we're you're insuring it if you lose it, yeah, but we're not gonna give you money back if it's even though you spent $500.

Host - Josh Anderson

Doesn't make sense.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

So yeah, your your overnight shipment got there in in ground timing, but yet we yeah, we charge you $500, even though we could have charged you $40 for the same shipment. Um, yeah, there's just a lot of stuff like that. It was crazy. But but yeah, it's it's just shipping, probably because they can. I mean, yeah, inflation is is it's real.

Host - Josh Anderson

All right. A few more uh business questions here, man. What are the top three metrics that you track for your businesses?

Hard Lessons: Cash, Timeline, And Traction

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Conversion value is is a huge one. And that's that's definitely something that we spend an incredible amount of time. So average order value and conversion value, um uh, or cost per conversion, uh, sorry, I should say, uh, to be specific. Uh, but the average order value makes a huge difference. And I mean, if you think about it, if your average conversion value is or cost per conversion is um is $20, but your average order value is $40, um, you're probably not making any money. But if your average order value is $100, you're probably doing great. $500, you're doing really well. Um so like with Seven Clay, we have phenomenal conversion metrics. I mean, it costs me two or three bucks to get a lead, and our average order value is is four figures. So it's awesome. Uh, but yeah, Orange Bud, it's it's brutal. You know, we're we're right at well, just about $100 average order value. And uh, so when you factor in, everything costs at least $10 plus dollars to ship everything. And you already, and then you're gonna spend $20 or $30 to have your conversion, um there's not much profit left, hence why you have to produce overseas to get costs down. Um and there's no way around it, or you raise them prices up a whole bunch. So uh those are the two that I care about the most. Uh, and then and then gross sales uh is what I track. Yeah, I know it still comes down to net, of course, but but I because we spend so much time on conversion value and our businesses are based so much upon that, yeah. Um uh with really paying attention to AOV and um and cost per conversion, it it helps to understand if our business is doing good or not.

Host - Josh Anderson

Right on. Yeah. All right. Three things that you wish you knew that you know today when you started out with these businesses.

Host - Dane Higgins

Oh, well, so I just a little bit because I listened to his other podcasts. I guess there's a whole book written about him as far as he said on what not to do. Yeah, yeah. Well, what are your what were your three biggest mistakes?

Host - Josh Anderson

Maybe is a better way to ask that question.

Closing Thoughts: Ride Your Bike

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Yeah, I wasted a lot of money in the beginning. Um, I read a book called Traction by uh I think Gabriel Weinberg, I think is his name. And I read it like six months after I started my business. No, it's probably a year. And and as he went in, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. I'm like, I did it. I did that, I did that, I did that five times. I'm like, God dang it. Uh so so like we don't do TV. Uh we had um a place reach out to us, said, Man, your transition rap's awesome. We need to make an infomercial on it. And they promised the world. I'm like, ah, sounds great. I flew to Florida, I think, and shot an infomercial and and uh and it it only cost me money. And and afterwards, um I learned that, oh yeah, they sucker a lot of people into that. But it's it was some weird deal. I actually went bankrupt. And um uh, but yeah, the the other is uh or the the biggest one I would say is don't quit your day job until you have enough money uh to be able to run the business. And I didn't um do that. You know, I I waited two years before I quit my day job. Yeah, um, and I I actually set aside $100,000 in cash. And I told my wife, um, when I finally quit my job, I said, we're gonna um we're gonna make this go. And and if it doesn't, once we spend $100,000, I'm going back to work. And and it took 10 months. We were down to 16,000 in our checking account. And and uh and it was into that that first full year, almost full year, and um uh and we were able to pay ourselves at least a little bit. It wasn't enough to get by, but but it it delayed the burn. And that's when we realized, all right, I think if we spend more time focusing on this, we can make it go. And and um uh and you know, fortunately that's that's helped out. But that is seriously the number one. Don't don't um don't have grand illusions you're gonna get rich. And and and at least in passion-based businesses, in many businesses for that matter, you need cash. It takes cash. And and a lot of it is uh it takes cash for the learning. Like I I've told many people that you know I'm I am an expert in Facebook advertising, but I have been an expert and an idiot, and then an expert and an idiot. And right now I'm back to what I would say is probably more expert status. Um, but but it's it's just one algorithm change away from being an idiot again. You have to relearn these things, and relearning only costs you money. Um, so basically understand um uh what your average order value is gonna be. Make sure you look at that full pipeline uh before you ever even think of starting a business, and then of course have cash. Um because that's the other thing. Like my son, he wanted to start a he was gonna start making uh fishing grubs and making his own fishing grubs and selling them online. I'm like, well, how you what are you gonna sell them for? He's like, probably five bucks. I'm like, well, it's gonna cost like six to ship them. I'm like, that's a problem. And I have people all the time give me, I tell me all ideas that they had for businesses. I'm like, hey, I don't want to be Debbie Downer, but if you can't sell something for $100 online, you're in the wrong business. You're just you're just not gonna be able to do it. Shipping and advertising costs are gonna ruin you. So, you know, it's it's something that that uh I tell everybody make sure you understand what your average order value is. Um, and then bake in 20 or 30 bucks for a conversion and then ask yourself, can I make it go based upon this? And if the answer is yes, then that's because you must be selling a whole bunch of them because you've got to get there um in volume and uh and it takes time. You know, reach is absolutely brutal. So um, yeah, the advertising is is number one in in today's world, I believe it's number one um uh to understand your your sales pipe, both sales and marketing pipes, and and uh if you don't have that figured out, don't do it. Not unless you not not without quitting the job anyway.

Host - Josh Anderson

All right. I want I want to be true to our word. We told Josh we'd run for an hour. Okay we're about there.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson

Josh, you got any final you got any thank you for your time and you got any final thoughts for our listeners or anything you want to leave us with?

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

No, my I guess final thought would be uh get outside and ride your bike. It's one of the greatest joys that we have in this world. And and uh I think it's it's almost every single idea that I've had for Orange Mud has come from riding bicycles. And even my running hydration packs that I built. I don't I don't come back from runs thinking, oh yeah, I think I'm gonna make this. I come back from mountain bike rides thinking when I go on a run tomorrow, I can do X, Y, and Z and make that run better because of this change in this pack. Um, so I I think it's it's more it does more for your psyche than anything else out there. Um just to go on dirt for two wheels, as far as you can go.

Host - Josh Anderson

That's awesome, man. We've we've asked that question 120 times, and I think we've got that answered a hundred times back. Go around your bike.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

I bet it's great. I bet it's a great advice. I freaking love it. I love it.

Host - Josh Anderson

All right, Josh. Thank you very much for we appreciate you.

Guest - Josh Spague (Orange Mud)

You got it, guys. Thanks. Thanks, man.

Host - Dane Higgins

Can you dig it? Can you dig it? Can you dig it?

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Dane "Suspension Guru" Higgins

Host
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Josh "Magellan" Anderson

Host