127 - Bike Shop Secrets: Upgrading Your Mountain Bike Fork - Which One, When, and How

Upgrading your mountain bike fork is one of the highest-impact changes you can make to your ride — but it's also one of the easiest ways to waste money if you don't know what you're doing. In this episode, Dane draws on years of suspension work in the shop to walk through when a fork swap actually makes sense, what to watch out for when buying used, and why the current fork sitting on your bike right now might be leaving performance on the table.

Josh and Dane also cover the full compatibility checklist riders need to work through before pulling the trigger — steer tube diameter, boost spacing, axle standards, travel limits, fork offset, and brake adapter sizing. Dane then walks through the step-by-step installation process, the specialty tools worth owning, and a few post-install checks that most home mechanics skip. If you're shopping for a mountain bike fork upgrade, this episode will save you time, money, and at least one frustrating trip back to the bike shop.

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Transcript

Appliances, Old Gear, And Replacing Stuff

Host - Josh Anderson 0:22

So the wife and I bought a new washer and dryer. Oh, God, I hate that. It's okay though, man. And they work pretty well. Um, but then I started noticing that like my clothes were shrinking.

Host - Dane Higgins 0:36

Yeah, I mean, you did you read the instructions?

Host - Josh Anderson 0:39

I did, and I was I was blaming it on the dryer. I'm like, it's gotta be the dryer, gotta be the dryer. Yeah. So, like any good strategist, I set off and I I did a detailed study, got to root cause. Guess what I found out? What? Turns out it was the refrigerator, not the dryer.

Host - Dane Higgins 0:55

Was that your dad joke? That was my dad's joke. Oh my god. I was fish hooked. I was fish hooked in. I was like, I was because uh my wife is angry at our dryer. Okay. It won't dry like blankets. Okay. It just won't stay on long enough, and we don't know how to make the beep-ups work, you know, with all the buttons. It's digital. I I don't know.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:13

As Claude.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:14

And yeah, and um, I think there's something wrong with it. And she's like, I'm gonna buy a new one. And I hate buying new appliances. I feel like new ones, especially, are just like it's harder. Yeah, they don't last like they used to. And God, I sound like an old man. You are an old man.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:28

Yeah, so my day in my day, washers lasted more than two years.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:34

So so uh when we bought the house, it had this speed queen uh washer and dryer. And I thought they were old and no big, you know, like they're amazing. They're amazing. Like I had no idea, but my washer did crap out and I had to replace it. But uh everybody told me you should have kept it because they're amazing. Um, but yeah, nothing's made like that anymore.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:57

And I'm so sorry to our listeners that I sent Dane into a rabbit hole on washers and dryers.

Host - Dane Higgins 2:01

Yeah. I mean we're gonna be talking about we're gonna be talking about replacing stuff. We're gonna be talking about replacing stuff. That's good. And and that's kind of like the theme uh the uh thing is like you know, when you're swapping out stuff and and I, you know, I I'll tell you the nice thing about bikes is it's the new stuff is better than the old stuff. Yeah, like it it is. So that's good.

Why Fork Swaps Change Everything

Host - Josh Anderson 2:22

So um, so what are we gonna talk about today? So it's bike shop secret episode, but a bike shop secret episode with a specific topic that we want to cover. Yeah, and that topic is fork swaps.

Host - Dane Higgins 2:32

Yep.

Host - Josh Anderson 2:32

Uh I did a fork swap on my gorilla from a 38, which I was kind of messing around with, didn't get along with an older 38, and got the got up, got back on the zeb, and oh my god, that bike feels it so good, dude.

Host - Dane Higgins 2:44

Oh man, so good. So yeah, I yeah, I gotta tell you, I gotta get a zeb and and give it a shot. I we're planning on doing a whole episode of testing the new 38 forks that are coming out for 27. So that'll be interesting to get some time on them and see how they all do.

Host - Josh Anderson 2:59

So we thought it would be cool since Dan is a suspension episode or a suspension expert, and we've talked about how to set him up and we talk about suspension a lot, but we've never focused specifically on you know finding a new a new fork and then swapping it, the process of swapping it. And I went through that over the weekend, so it had me thinking about you know, swapping forks and all the steps that go into that.

Host - Dane Higgins 3:21

Yeah, that's a lot of questions.

Host - Josh Anderson 3:23

Lots of questions, and I know that Dane, so this is gonna be hard for us to keep this at a reasonable time because Dave could talk about this for hours. I do. That's what I do. So I might cut you off. Um, all right. First

The Real Reasons Riders Upgrade

Host - Josh Anderson 3:36

question for you, brother. Um why would someone want to swap the fork off their perfectly good mountain bike? Uh what are some of the reasons it would drive someone to want to swap a fork? I've got some ideas, but I'd love to hear what your thoughts are.

Host - Dane Higgins 3:50

I'll tell you what happens in here all the time is probably the number one reason is I go to service their old one, and there's enough there's two things that happen. I go to service it, and that is the time that they think maybe I should get a new one. Because you're like, you come back, you're like, this is gonna cost X. Even before that, they're like, okay, do I put money into this OE fork that came stock? Yep. That may not have been their dream fork because they were had on a budget. Uh, do I put money into that and fix it, or do I just use the money I was gonna fix it towards? And and really that kind of lowers the effective cost of a new fork.

Host - Josh Anderson 4:25

Yeah, because it's I mean, uh standard rates are right right around 150, 160, 200 bucks to do a fork service.

Host - Dane Higgins 4:31

Yeah, ours are a little bit lower, but that's probably more of a uh like a standard price.

Host - Josh Anderson 4:35

Standard, yeah, one fifty. Um so yeah, yeah. So you're looking at like spending 150 just to kind of clean up the thing you got, or you can take that 150 and put it to something bright, shiny, and new.

Host - Dane Higgins 4:45

And if you use weird logic, fuzzy math. You actually save money. You saved 150 bucks, but it's you don't, but in your mind you can justify it. Um and honestly, I sell a lot of new forks because of that.

Host - Josh Anderson 4:58

And is this as why is this part of the reason why you have so many used forks?

Host - Dane Higgins 5:01

Yes, yeah. We do a lot of trade-ins too. So then if you your fork's decent and your fork may be a good upgrade for somebody else, yeah, I may give you a trade-in amount. So then you're saving even more. Yep.

Host - Josh Anderson 5:12

Um you do the service on it anyway, so that it's fresh for the next year.

Host - Dane Higgins 5:15

Yeah, I always yeah, we recondition them before we sell them just to make sure. So the that's probably the number one reason. The second reason is when I get into it, there's damage or something expensive. Okay. And then I usually notify the customer and say, hey, we've got this unknown issue that came up that we didn't know about, it's gonna cost this amount. And then that conversation starts because now maintaining the fork isn't may borderline what a new one would cost. Right. And so, depending on what they're doing. Um, and so those are the two most common reasons. Okay. And then I would say the uh third one, which is uh these are all pretty equal. Okay. Uh the third one is somebody equal in the percentage of people that you see doing this. Yeah. Uh the third one is somebody's like, I want a better fork. I I want a performance increase. I want to do more on my bike, and maybe they could want some different technology. Yeah, the either the new technology is exciting or you're hitting the limits of your current current fork. There's a lot of people that buy a bike not really knowing what they can do, and within a year, they're crushing it, they're doing great, and they're like seeing what makes yeah, the new the nicer forks worth it. Yeah, and then it's worth it, you know. But maybe when they first started, they couldn't really tell. They both look like suspension forks and they don't really know the difference. And so the performance uh reason is the second, and those are ones where somebody's definitely usually looking at upgrading to in most cases the top line fork.

Host - Josh Anderson 6:42

Okay. So I think you covered most of the reasons. I I've swapped since I've known you, I've swapped a lot of forks, and actually I did that even before I knew you.

Host - Dane Higgins 6:49

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 6:49

But uh one that I had that you didn't mention was I want more travel.

Host - Dane Higgins 6:54

Yes.

Host - Josh Anderson 6:54

And you overstroke a lot.

Host - Dane Higgins 6:56

Yep, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 6:57

That's part of your like MO.

Host - Dane Higgins 6:58

Well, so I would say a lot of people will change forks because of travel or ride style. So like if you have a 36 and all of a sudden you want more travel, but your 36 millimeter uh fork can't go bigger, bigger, and so you go to a 38 style fork, and and now you can go along with the right.

Host - Josh Anderson 7:16

And you and he and you're using stanchion size 36, 38 generically, could be any brand. Yeah, uh Fox specific.

Host - Dane Higgins 7:23

Yeah, Fox will call their fork a 36 or a 38, but um the stanchion size has been kind of what categorizes the fork into what it's meant to be used for. Right. So usually you don't find a hundred and twenty millimeter 38 fork. That's very rare. That'd be weird. Yeah. Every once in a while there'll be a custom made like dirt jumper. Okay. That that's I guess that would make sense. Yeah. Yeah. But uh for the most part, they're they're kind of if if the fork has got 32 mil 32 millimeter stanchions, in most cases it doesn't go much above 140. Right. Uh, and that's getting down to where that's even harder to find.

Host - Josh Anderson 7:57

So right on. Okay. So uh the other I I think new and different tech, travel, damage, yeah. This whole like, hey, should I I I had didn't have it hadn't considered like I it's due for a service. Yeah. I can save a hundred save, quote, unquote, save 150 bucks by buying a new one. Um I also had weight on there as a potential list. It was do you see anyone coming in? Like maybe the cross-country guys come in and say, I need a lighter thing.

Host - Dane Higgins 8:20

Yeah, or they they bought the the sometimes the companies skimp on the fork, uh, but the rest of the bike's pretty pimp. Yeah, like uh we used to sell treks that were carbon, but they would come with like steel stanchion, like crappy forks. That's weird. And so like it was a pretty nice bike, and you just change the fork out, and you've got an even nicer bike. And so that happens every once in a while. Um uh there's bikes uh a really I have way too many of is a the RockShock 35. The the that is like RockShock's answer to every single bike out there. Yeah, like they'll put that on any entry-level bike that's pretty decent, but the fork is in lackluster, and so it's the number one upgraded fork.

Host - Josh Anderson 9:05

If anyone's looking for a rock shock 35, Dan's I got a mess of them. Dean's got them, he'll cut you a really sweet deal.

Host - Dane Higgins 9:11

At this point, Nike's gonna get a gift, I think, at this point.

Host - Josh Anderson 9:13

A gift of like using 40 new forks for the gifts. Yeah, which they won't want. No.

Host - Dane Higgins 9:18

So um, and and I should I I should not beat up RockShock with that 35. It's a good fork for what it does. And for the price. Um, you know, if you there are way worse uh forks out there, and the 35 is actually an upgrade for a lot of forks that I see coming here. Yeah. And uh I feel like the 35 would be a better choice for a lot of customers. But um when the we sell a lot of high-end, and so the the 35 is always the entry level to all the bikes that we have.

Host - Josh Anderson 9:46

Yeah, and it's uh and and for a couple hundred bucks more, you know, just a Fox 36.

Host - Dane Higgins 9:51

It's just a like the performance 36, is like uh number one replacement for the 35 is the uh Z2. The Marzoki, yeah. Yeah, because that comes with a grip damper in it, right? It's it's a rail, it depends on what year, but uh a rail damper. Um, but in general, it's a really just a good quality, low price fork. Good quality, low price fork, very easy to set up. Yeah, we if we did uh another bang for the buck, that would be a good thing.

Host - Josh Anderson 10:16

Let's save that because that was gonna be one of mine was Marzoki. So although I have had some struggles with Marozoki forks. We'll talk about that in a different ones, uh three, four years ago.

Host - Dane Higgins 10:25

Uh snewer.

Host - Josh Anderson 10:26

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, so you can obviously buy one new. Um, you come into your LBS. Uh, if you have an awesome suspension guy like Dane, this is like the place to go. Uh yeah, I would recommend that you you know go someplace that they like really know suspension. Um, not all shops have that.

Host - Dane Higgins 10:46

Yeah, the the I I've got a little short story about a customer who went in with uh like a cross-country race bike and came out with a 36 on their bike. And and you know, the the the uh bro dude or whoever was helping them at that shop was just not really like that's what he rode and that's what he told the guy you should get. And the guy spent like over a thousand bucks on a fork that just wasn't appropriate. It should not have been on that bike. And then the guy kept coming to me trying to figure out how to make the fork work better for him, and I'm like, this is the wrong fork for you, you need a different fork. And so you do have to make sure that you at least do your research if you don't have somebody to help you out.

Host - Josh Anderson 11:26

Yep.

Used Fork Red Flags And Deals

Host - Josh Anderson 11:27

All right, so but you can also buy from the used market.

Host - Dane Higgins 11:29

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 11:30

And I thought it would be cool maybe if we talk through like what are some like warning signs or red flags. Like when you're looking at uh a used fork, what are you looking for and what would turn you off?

Host - Dane Higgins 11:43

So um there's gonna be performance things and then there's gonna be value things. Okay. And the reason I say that is because I resell a lot of used forks. The biggest deterrent on value is uh scratches on the stanchion. And performance-wise, it's not as big a deal as people think. We do a lot of service on suspension forks, a lot of them come in with scratches. We you actually have a process where you fill those in. Yeah, we remove the burrs, we smooth them, and sometimes if they're big enough, we'll fill and polish them. And that will keep the performance of the fork going. Yeah. Uh, it's a lot less money than buying a new CSU, which is the crown steer upper assembly, which is is what you'd have to replace. And um, so the scratches from a performance standpoint don't always mean it's not a huge deal. A bad thing. But it's an emotional event. Yes, it's it's and and also when you're looking at a used fork, if you see scratches, it's one of the first things that you can see that may concern you. And so uh so when you're buying a used fork, that's the value side. It loses value if you have scratches on the standard.

Host - Josh Anderson 12:45

So it could be if you're a cheap ass like me and you have a good suspension tech in your town, you could buy a fork that's got a scratched upstantion, have the suspension tech clean it up, and and you'll probably get a great deal because it's gonna be way cheaper than what it doesn't have.

Host - Dane Higgins 12:59

It may be it may be an option that you can do, but you do need that help with it. Um the biggest thing I would say when you're looking for used performance-wise is uh you you gotta watch out. There's a couple telltale signs. If the fork is really leaky, that could be pretty fixable, uh especially if it's at the wipers. That sometimes is just an easy lower service or a service. I actually tell people when you buy a fork, this is this is not meant to be bougie, but I think anytime you buy a used fork, you should have it serviced.

Host - Josh Anderson 13:31

And I was gonna ask you that.

Host - Dane Higgins 13:33

Yeah, that's you just don't know. You don't know what's going on inside. Unless you have proof or that you know the guy and you know for sure that you can trust him. And and or girl. And from somebody who works on this stuff, what is inside makes way more difference than what's on outside. And sometimes a fork can have a lot of soot or dirt inside that's con constantly circulating and like sandblasting the inside of the fork. If you don't get it serviced, it'll keep doing that. And damage gets more and more and more. Yeah, and and when I say serviced, uh a lot of people will say, Well, I just serviced it. But they may have just pulled the lowers and put wipers on it and put it back. But that dirt is still in the that's not a full that's not a full service. So there's different levels of what you should, you know, watch out for. If you budget a service when you're looking at a used fork, it'll give you a more realistic idea if you're getting a good deal or not. Because if that new fork is a thousand bucks and somebody wants eight hundred and it's hundred and fifty to service it, and it's a used fork over a year old, uh, there's a good chance that you could just spend fifty bucks more and get that new fork. And then you got a warranty and all kinds of stuff. Yep. Um, so just be mindful. If that thousand dollar fork is a year old and it's two hundred dollars, it may be the deal is entry, you know. So um there are sometimes uh parts on a fork that when you have to replace or fix them, you have to replace a whole section of the fork, which sucks. It can be way more expensive. Yeah, we struggle with that in the shop because there's um things that the manufacturer may make available for us to work on them, and then there's a different level where we may go in and actually change something that's not serviceable to make it still work, and that's always a balance of time and money and what the customer's needs are. Um, so my biggest telltale is scarring on the stanchion, and I'm not as worried about little scratches. I look right between the arch and the stanchion for bushing scarring, and that is harder to detect because when the inside of the fork gets sandblasted and the bushings run dry, they tend to scar the stanchions, but it's below the wipers, so it's hard to see. Okay. And so a really bad fork, you'll see some shining or discoloration right above the wiper. And because of the way the fork sits and it loads uh the way it loads, uh the bushings load in the fork, the front of the stanchions at the top bushing is what wears, and the back of the stanchion at the lower bushings is what wear. And that's just if you imagine that that fork is being pushed up and and turned, um Yeah, you can see how the how the forces would cause those two places to get more pressure. So the upper bushings when they're running dry, they will scar the stanchions pretty bad, and that can really be a performance issue.

Host - Josh Anderson 16:24

So you look for discoloration of the stanchions right above the front, right above the bushing and of the right above the wiper. Right above the wiper.

Host - Dane Higgins 16:31

Yeah. Yep. Um if I'm buying a used fork and it's a high value fork, something that's expensive, and I don't know the history, sometimes I'll drop the lowers and look at it inside because I can do that.

Host - Josh Anderson 16:41

So I was gonna ask you if you offered like an inspection service. Do you sell that? Have you ever done that?

Host - Dane Higgins 16:46

Uh I I would do that. Let me let me put it this way. I would absolutely do that for people uh and figure out pricing, you know, 20 bucks or whatever, you know. So I I can't put a price on it because you never know, but um, I would do that. I don't see that being super practical. Like if you're buying a fork used off of eBay, you can't do that. Yeah, you can't bring it here. If you're getting it off a pink bike, you can't do that.

Host - Josh Anderson 17:08

Yeah, so it'd be a rare circumstance where you could actually do it.

Host - Dane Higgins 17:11

I think I sell a lot of used forks because people know that I'm going through them. Yep and so that helps them have a little peace of mind. Yeah. And so, uh, but I I would absolutely do that for somebody if they were looking at especially a high value fork. You know, some of these forks, I mean, uh the podium fork is two thousand dollars. If you're looking at a used podium, you know, it's it's like a car, you know, you might as well take it in and have it checked out, you know. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, but if you're looking at a $200, you know, used performance 35 1973 Fox, you know, or whatever, you know, that's not accurate, but you know, it you just kind of roll the dice. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 17:48

So all right, man. Um cool. Uh now I've got a whole list of this might be totally unfair to you.

Rapid Takes On Fork Brands

Host - Dane Higgins 17:56

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 17:56

Um, but I've got a whole list of suspension manufacturers.

Host - Dane Higgins 18:00

Yeah, I saw your list and it it I'm starting to giggle as I think about your list because it's pretty ridiculous near the end.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:08

Okay, so I got a whole bunch of companies that make suspension forks.

Host - Dane Higgins 18:12

And you want me to say like three things about it.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:14

No, I want you to to describe them in as few as words as possible. So like and I want it to be like the first thing that comes into your head. I don't want you to think about it long. Okay. Because that's gonna give me like ex like really how you feel about it. Okay, but this is just how I feel. Well, you are the suspension guru.

Host - Dane Higgins 18:30

I know, but I always you know, everybody's got an opinion and I know.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:35

That's the whole point. It's just a perspective. We're putting a stake in the ground. I I don't agree with your perspective on some of these. I'm not gonna qu I'm not gonna argue with you.

Host - Dane Higgins 18:42

Okay, all right.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:42

Okay. So I want to read the name. Okay, and you're gonna tell me You want to mix them up?

Host - Dane Higgins 18:47

Because I saw the list. Uh I uh if you want me to be surprised, mix it up.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:51

Okay, uh maybe I'll do that. Okay. Maybe I won't. You don't have to.

Host - Dane Higgins 18:54

I don't know. Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:55

Um I'm gonna read the name, okay, and I want you to the first like three to five words that pop into your head.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:00

Okay. Okay. All right. Fox. Oh, popular, expensive, quality.

Host - Josh Anderson 19:08

Okay. Okay, I can dig that. Rock shock.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:12

Um I would say quality. Plastic.

Host - Josh Anderson 19:18

Uh oh.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:19

Yeah. That's my negative. And then plush.

Host - Josh Anderson 19:23

Okay. Since I've fallen. I told you I wouldn't comment on this, but since I've fallen in love with the rock shock things, yeah. I want to hear about the plastic things.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:30

We can we can touch on it now or later. Let's touch on it now.

Host - Josh Anderson 19:32

Why is it plastic? No, no, no, let's keep going. I want to keep going down on this. We'll come back to it.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:36

Okay. DVO. Um unknown quality value. And plush. I gotta throw in plush. Because plush would be the main thing. I was gonna call you out if you didn't say it because you tell everyone that. Yeah. Uh to me, that's almost un unspoken. It's you don't need to say that.

Host - Josh Anderson 19:56

They're just in Dane. I know he's he tries to stay objective, but I'll just be uh I'm just gonna tell the world this like the love affair that I have with Shimano. Yeah, Dane has that same love affair with DVO.

Host - Dane Higgins 20:06

Yes, yeah, but they have not. I don't I don't hey if anybody at DVO, I'm gonna send this to Ronnie. If anybody at DVO has uh listening to this, I'm just saying that you've got like three Shimano hats. I haven't gotten one DVO I'm just saying. I'm just saying if Ronnie's listening to this, I need a hat. All right, okay. All right, next one, Marzoki. Uh um, quality, um, value, and good. Okay. Uh Manitou. Uh unknown. A little bit of plastic. Um, different.

Host - Josh Anderson 20:47

Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 20:48

Different bad, different good. Uh, not bad. Just different, but not necessarily good. Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 20:53

I gotta make some notes here because I gotta I wanna get into like the I want to come back to that. So you said plastic, and then with manitou, you said different. I want to dive into those two topics.

Host - Dane Higgins 21:01

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 21:01

Uh different. Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 21:03

Olens. Olens, expensive, high-end, meh. Ooh. I know. Wow. A lot of people will disagree with me on that.

Host - Josh Anderson 21:13

Throwing down throwing down the gauntlet with the meh.

Host - Dane Higgins 21:16

Yeah, I yeah, I uh yeah. Yeah. Okay. For me, it's a value bang for the buck. It's not a bang for the buck. Right. So uh Sun Tour. Oh man. Uh cheap, heavy, uh low quality. Okay. Which is we'll talk about later. Because it's ironic. It's ironic, isn't it? Yeah, because they make a lot. Uh King Creek. Yeah, that's a tough one. Um really nice. Not as high a performance. Uh and uh price is so so. Okay. X Fusion. Uh so X Fusion is tricky. Uh they're not much. Plastic, which is nice, unknown, well built, but performance is meh. So MRP. Oh man, MRP. Man, I feel like it you have to smoke pot to have MRP. Okay. Is that all you want to say about MRP? No, MRP, MRP is like they do some You're not getting an MRP hat, brother. Well, dude, they do some really cool, amazing stuff, and then there's some stuff that's not great. And it's like, it's I I I'm excited for them, but they also don't do a lot of marketing. So it's uh here, you know what? A really good word for them, it's ironic, is grassroots. I would say is an actual good, you know, Colorado company doing different stuff, really has a cool vibe. Um, but they're not a marketing monster, so you just don't see a lot of them. And there's they could definitely clean up a couple things.

Host - Josh Anderson 23:00

Okay. EXT.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:01

Uh super bougie, expensive, high quality, not the best value. So good stuff, just not necessarily bang for the buck. So no bang for the buck, but is the per is it high performance? Super high performance. Okay, high performance. That's good. With with a cost.

Host - Josh Anderson 23:18

With a cost. So you pay for it, but you get good performance. Yes, yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:22

Formula. Oh man, uh I would say that everything about ext except not the bang. Not high performance.

Host - Josh Anderson 23:29

Bougie, expensive, not high performance.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:31

Just the caveat on formula. We don't see those in the States very much. No, Italian company. Yeah, I don't know how they could be the DVO of Italy, you know, where you know they're pretty um people love them over there. Here we just don't see a lot. I think sometimes that'll factor in how I feel about them.

Host - Josh Anderson 23:48

Yeah, of course, because you don't know. It's ignorance.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:50

Well, not only that, but if I can't get parts, if they're not easy to service, if they're not practical, you know, then it weighs on whether or not I think it's a good product. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 24:00

So makes sense. Intend.

Host - Dane Higgins 24:03

Oh man, super bougie, really expensive, high-end, innovative. Uh I have no idea how they perform.

Host - Josh Anderson 24:10

Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 24:11

So RST. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. It gets better. Oh god. Zoom. Oh god. Yeah, I don't know where you dug these up. These are like from the 80s. Um, yeah, Zoom, yeah. Yeah. And the next one, spinner. Nobody knows spinner. Like, I don't even know, remember who makes spinner. So yeah, it's like, uh, yeah, those all three of those are kind of what you see on like department store bikes.

Host - Josh Anderson 24:42

Okay. So uh let's go back up to a couple

Plastic Parts And Repair Frustrations

Host - Josh Anderson 24:45

things you said. You mentioned plastic for a couple companies, specifically RockShock. Tell me more about what you meant by that.

Host - Dane Higgins 24:50

So anytime a company on the inside uses a lot of plastic, it worries me. So sometimes uh plastic can be really functional. Um, a lot of companies use a type of plastic uh type material, Durlon, whatever, yep, uh, for their pistons. And that's okay because that thing's moving up and down and they want it to be softer than the inside of the stanchion so it doesn't scar it up. Um but there's a lot of plastic in rock shocks. And as you get to the ultimate level, like you're riding, that starts to go away. And so one of the ways that they lower the price on their lower level stuff is to introduce pretty, you know, low-tech plasticky, you know, systems. And so um, I was doing a Zeb today compared to an ultimate, and almost everything on that Zeb air shaft was plastic except the shaft. So it's just kind of lower, lower level quality. Um so plastics can deform, they can change shape and temperature changes.

Host - Josh Anderson 25:51

Do you see that in those forks? Do you have seen a lot of that?

Host - Dane Higgins 25:53

Yeah, I see plastic breaks, things like that. Uh probably the the biggest complaint with some of the plastics is that when they build them, they just don't have super tight tolerances. Like they're clipped together, you know, like you know, two tabs clipping together to hold something together rather than being tightened to a torque or right with a fastener. Yeah, exactly. And so it's just a a low-cost manufacturing uh technique, which I totally get. But like I mentioned, X Fusion. When I get into an X Fusion, there's a lot less plastic, there's uh a lot of machined parts, it's uh surprising that there's a lot more to them than you think. They don't work that great. And they're okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 26:36

They're not the I some of the rock shock is better, but the amount of time and effort put into that so durability on the rock shock might be a question for you then, based on those plastic things?

Host - Dane Higgins 26:46

Yeah, I've so I've seen a trend in suspension where a lot of these companies are starting to get away from making each little part available, and you buy a section of parts. So one rock shock is is doing that, and it's frustrating for a mechanic when I see it just needs an O-ring, but I have to replace the whole damper or something like that, because one piece is leaking. And then I either have to go in outside of their tech manual and pull it apart and figure it out myself, and they won't make this one part, or they won't spend the time for us to replace that. Um Fox is much better about that, they break down almost everything. Uh, but I've even seen Fox when you get a replacement part, sometimes you can't get the little piece, you have to get the whole thing. Sometimes it's a matter of talking to them, you know, like the part number doesn't exist on their website, but if you talk to a tech, you can maybe get the piece. So uh those things factor into the way I do things and what I recommend. If if I have to tell somebody I need a $300 damper because there's a bad O-ring in it, it's frustrating. You know, no matter how much it's that product's fault, yeah, I still am the bad, you know, I'm the messenger, you know, and so that wears on you for a while.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:00

So this we we've had something weird like the universe just exploded.

Host - Dane Higgins 28:04

Uh-huh.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:04

Uh I'm gonna explain to you what you just did. Uh oh. And but I I have a little preamble here, and that is that, you know, I have pulled all of my Fox stuff off, uh-huh, swapped it all for Ultimates. Every bike I own that has suspension fork has a either a Zeb or a Pike.

Host - Dane Higgins 28:21

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:21

And I and I thought, you know, this is just my riding style.

Host - Dane Higgins 28:24

Uh-huh.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:24

Right. I'm I'm a smasher, I'm a monster truck, I'm not very playful, not very good. I just crush through things, I'm getting better. But like I think this just works for my riding style. So just as an experiment, my wife, who's the ex, you know, opposite riding style, she's super playful, super technical. Yeah. We swapped her fork for a pike ultimate. Uh, and she absolutely loved it as well. Yeah. So now I'm convinced it it's not uh the riding style, at least between Lacey and I, who are polar opposite the way we ride.

Host - Dane Higgins 28:52

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:53

Um, so I think they're amazing. The ultimate anyways, the ultimates. Um, but we make a habit on this podcast of pissing off shram.

Host - Dane Higgins 29:02

When you say we, could you rephrase that? So typically I piss off shram.

Host - Josh Anderson 29:08

And now for the first time ever, you have done it.

Host - Dane Higgins 29:11

Yeah. I you know, anything that I say here, I would say to them. And so you just did, brother. And I have, and I have told them that it's frustrating. Um I I I have a few boxers that have come in and their controls are leaking. Boxers is a downhill fork, yeah, and it's got a charger damper similar to your Zeb, and the controls are leaking, and they don't have a solution other than to buy a new damper. And here's where I get frustrated. If you buy a brand new fork, it is gonna work and it's gonna be great, and it will work at least until the warranty goes away. Yeah. I I too often, if a company, if their answer is, well, it's out of warranty, they'll have to buy a damper. That is not something that you know you want to really tell people all the time. Like nobody buys a twelve hundred dollar fork to only have it for three years. Like, and some of the companies, and I'm this isn't rock shock, this is a lot of companies uh in the bike industry. They lose touch with the fact that what the customer expects a a twelve hundred dollar fork and how long they expect it to last versus what the company has promised it will last, and they kind of don't understand that there's a disconnect there.

Host - Josh Anderson 30:34

Disconnect in the expectation.

Host - Dane Higgins 30:35

And that's not just uh, you know, that's not just um RockShock. Their warranty is way, way beyond most. So their warranty is better than most. Uh Fox has the same issue. Uh, if you know, if you've got a product with Fox that's not doing well, and it's you know a month out of warranty, they will most often just tell you you have to pay for it to be fixed. And you know, it's sometimes they draw that line and it gets frustrating because as a shop, we're in the middle. Yeah. Uh and and we have to try and you gotta tell that's part of the value proposition you bring to the companies is you get to give the customer bad news. Well, not only do I have to give them bad news, but I I do have to go to bat for the customer. And so sometimes I have to say things that aren't nice to these companies and and not be like just a rah-rah guy. You know, I I expect them to last longer. I had a DVO fork in here uh last year that the damper blew up on it, and when I found out what they did, and I'm not gonna talk about it, but I can tell you that I called them and and was upset with them, like really upset with them because of what they had done on this OE product. And I I I was really upset and disappointed in them. And and that that product was so below what they're trying to accomplish and set them back. You know, anybody who rode that product, because it was OE, you couldn't buy it on their website, you wouldn't get it. Yeah, this isn't one of their aftermarket products. No, but it shows up on your bike. Yep. And you just lost your DVO hat by the way. Yeah, yeah, that's okay. That's why I don't have as many hats. Uh but but I have to be honest with the company if they're making something that's that's garbage. Yeah. Uh, you know, sometimes you can be really nice and sometimes you can be really jerky. I think I'm always on the nice side when I talk to these companies. When there's something we see that shouldn't be like it is, I think there's way worse people than us. You know, we're really nice when we're talking to them about it. But most of these companies genuinely need that. In most cases, though, you know, at the level that we're talking, they don't know that. But yeah, when that product comes back and there's you know a thousand of them that come back, they're watching that and they're making changes because of it. I would suggest that you should always be nice, but always be honest. That's what I do. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of your vibe. Yeah. My wife is like, uh, you know, I if I bitch somebody out and I say that, everybody has their own idea of what that means. Yeah. My wife is like, your bitching out is my nice being nice to someone. She's like, you don't bitch anyone out.

Host - Josh Anderson 33:05

You're sleeping on the couch.

Host - Dane Higgins 33:06

Yeah. But but you know, she knows that, you know, and uh she calls me the marshmallow manager. So Jesus. Yeah, I know. So I'm I'm pretty nice about stuff, but I am pretty honest. If these companies are making a product that's not gonna last, I'll let them know.

Host - Josh Anderson 33:19

So uh one more question on something you said when we went to Manitou, you said

Why Manitou Works Differently

Host - Josh Anderson 33:24

different.

Host - Dane Higgins 33:24

Yeah. What did you mean by that? So Manitou's different, they do their own thing. Uh so when I open up a Fox and a RockShock, and some of these, even the DVOs now, I think it's pretty similar. They look really similar. They're really similar principles, the way they work, uh, the way they function, the the key things that make them what they are is very, very similar. If it weren't for some thread pitches, you could swap parts in these things. You know, they're they're really, really similar. In fact, I'm convinced that RockShock and Fox are the same company and they're just messing with us.

Host - Josh Anderson 33:58

They're not, by the way.

Host - Dane Higgins 34:00

No, okay. But like uh to give you an example, Fox in the 38 had a inner tube, uh, air tube, so that they could calculate and regulate the air volume in that fork because when they went to 38 mil stanchions, they were almost too big. And so basically they had too much air. And so because there was so much room, the engineers could go in and calculate exactly how much room they needed to make that fork do what they wanted to. And that was a big selling feature when the 38 came out. You could tell somebody, hey, the 36 was always this trying to figure out how many volume spacers and trying to make the air work, and the 38 took that and basically figured out how much air they need and could create it. And that that was cool. That was a really cool work better out of the box. Yeah, yeah. And and the air system was better, and so that was a big deal, right? Yep. And then the Zeb came out, and then they didn't have an air tube. And like, so we thought, oh no, the Zeb is gonna be just it's just gonna bottom out on everybody. It's too linear, too, yeah, too much air, and and not enough, they can't compress the air fast enough before you bottom it out. And then uh sure enough, RockShock figured it out, it works great, you know. This year, in 27, the new Fox 38 just came out. And guess what? Doesn't have the air sleeve, doesn't have an air tube in it. It has a piston in a 38 shaft. And I'm like, oh, okay, so they're kind of following RockShock. RockShock is is, you know, in this case, you know, uh uh Fox has kind of figured out they can do that, and it's very complicated to balance all this. There's there's a lot to it, and the engineers have to figure all this stuff out. Yeah, yeah. And then the new Zeb came out, and guess what? It's got one, it's got an air tube. Oh, Jesus Christ. And I'm like, what?

Host - Josh Anderson 35:51

You know, like what is going on? They just swapped they're copying each other.

Host - Dane Higgins 35:54

Yeah. And I'm oversimplifying. There's so much to this, you know, and it sounds like simple. But what's different about Manitou? Uh so Manitou, uh right out of the gate, when they first came out, uh, they were machined out of aluminum, which was really cool. A lot of uh forks back in the day were cast. Then uh they came with this reverse arch. That was they were the first ones to do that. Yep. Uh the idea was since your axle was up in front of the fork, if they put the arch at the back, it would give you ultimate stiffness. Yep. And they have stuck with that ever since. So their forks are all reverse arch except for the Girauddo, which doesn't have an arch. And um, so the reverse arch thing has been something they've done forever, you know, for a long time. There's a company called Pace that made forks uh in Europe that had a reverse arch, but other than that, that's the only two that I think I know of. Now Fox has one, so it's kind of crazy. Yep.

Host - Josh Anderson 36:46

Um that's on their like 32 or something.

Host - Dane Higgins 36:48

Yeah, their 32 race fork uh stepcast. Um, so that was one thing. Two, they always had different types of uh internals? Yeah. So another thing about the Rock Shock and the Fox is they both have switched, including DVO, to what's called an IFP, uh a spring back IFP damper. And so it's a lot of words.

Host - Josh Anderson 37:10

We're getting really deep here. Yeah. Maybe maybe raise it up a little bit.

Host - Dane Higgins 37:13

Okay, so just really simple. The architecture of the dampers are very, very simple. Similar. The way that they work, the way they keep the air out of the oil, the way they keep the oil uh pressure consistent so that you when you're pushing that fork into a hard bottom out, it's consistent and it doesn't just uh kind of foam up. And that's a bad, that's a bad thing. Um so manitou, totally different. Uh and then manitou has uh equalizing air. So the the other thing that forks did is they figured out if you put use air for your spring, you can make the fork lighter. And so one of the things early on that Fox did was they had a steel spring and you would add air to it, and the spring, the steel spring would compress. And then that compressed spring in there, because of the air pressure on the other side of the piston, would help the piston start moving, and it made the forks more plush, and that was the original. Then Fox and RockShock both figured out putting air on the back instead of the steel spring, you could do the same thing, do the same thing, and it would be lighter. Yep. And then early on, RockShock did that, but they made it so you could change the air pressure, so you could change how it feels, which which is cool. Um, now mana to has a similar system, but they have one valve that fills both of them at the same time. So you don't have two air chambers and you don't have to cycle the fork, it it charges it automatically. It's crazy. So how do they perform? Uh they're good, they're really good. Again, mana two makes low end, uh like RockShock, and then they make high-end. And so at the high-end level, they are super competitive. Uh performance-wise. Performance-wise. Uh, they're good quality, they're well built. Um, at the low end, they're low end, there's lots of plastic. So but I would say that they're they're nice stuff. I would say the biggest issue with Manitou is I think it's similar to TVO where the marketing of that is so costly to get them out in front of everybody that it's difficult sometimes to do that and justify the money.

Host - Josh Anderson 39:20

And in the last episode, we were complaining about that group, right?

Host - Dane Higgins 39:24

Because that's Reynold, Hayes, Manitou, all the same group. They make some amazing stuff. They don't market a lot. But but we don't know about it as much. So all right.

Host - Josh Anderson 39:33

So uh thank you for all that. That was that was a fun uh you don't want to know about spinner? No, no, not at all. Nobody does. Nobody does. All right. Nobody does.

Fit Checks Before You Buy

Host - Josh Anderson 39:43

All right. So let's say you've uh you've bought your your bike or or you're considering a new new fork. We talked about some red flags on used. How do you know it'll fit? So, like what are the different things you have to check to make sure that this new fork will fit on your existing ride?

Host - Dane Higgins 40:01

So the one of the biggest things is the age of the bike can really create a problem. So the older bikes, uh, a lot of older bikes, um, had different size steer tubes. And uh some of the really old ones, mountain bikes, were one inch threaded, and then they went to one and one-eighth threaded, and then they went to what we all know is threadless. So uh the way that the current bikes stems attach, they just slide on and then they have two pinch bolts or a pinch bolt and they clamp. The olden days uh they would be threaded, yep, and the stem had like a quill, they call it, so like a part that went inside the fork. It's kind of crazy. If you've never seen them, they're kind of weird looking. So so one is determining what your bike needs.

Host - Josh Anderson 40:47

So making sure that your stanchion is your head tube. Yep your head, your head tube and your stanchion are compatible.

Host - Dane Higgins 40:53

The stanchion is the the fork lower stuff. Sorry. Head tube. Steer tube. There you go.

Host - Josh Anderson 40:58

Head tube and steer tube. Yep. And today most of them are tapered. Tapered, which is one and a quarter.

Host - Dane Higgins 41:04

One and one eighth on the top and one point five on the bottom.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:06

One point five and the on the bottom.

Host - Dane Higgins 41:08

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:08

And so really kind of where we're at is you could end up with one that's one and a eighth the whole way. Straight.

Host - Dane Higgins 41:16

The old older bikes will be straight. Right. So so that's your your big thing is once you hit a certain period, if you've got a current newer bike, so let's let's skip the old ones. And and we'll simp simplify this. So we'll go to modern bikes.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:30

So m modern bikes, tapered steer tube.

Host - Dane Higgins 41:33

Tapered, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:34

Don't you have to make sure that the steering steer tube, because on a used fork will be cut, yes. Is actually long enough.

Host - Dane Higgins 41:41

Yeah, that's a big deal. Uh so like because I've seen people who have bought the wrong length, they didn't really understand, and then they go to put it on, and then the fork doesn't fit, or the steer the stem is like only halfway on, and that's not safe.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:54

So you got to measure your steer tube on your existing bike and make sure that you have you know at least that much available on the new one. Yeah. And when you buy used ones, if the people that are selling it are worth a shit, they're gonna include the steer length. Because they're gonna know that's something that will be critical for you.

Host - Dane Higgins 42:11

Yep, yeah. And you can measure usually with your old fork on the bike, you can measure where the fork enters the frame from that point to the top of your stem, and that'll give you a pretty good idea of how long it needs to be.

Host - Josh Anderson 42:26

Okay, so make sure it's the right steer. Most of them are gonna be these days, they're gonna be tapered. Yep. And make sure that steer is long enough.

Host - Dane Higgins 42:32

Yep.

Host - Josh Anderson 42:32

What about the axle?

Host - Dane Higgins 42:34

Uh, so in again, in modern bikes, 15 millimeters has become pretty much the dominant axle. There's a every once in a while you can find a quick release still. Yep. Um, but there are two different widths uh or um yeah, spacing spacing, yeah. Spacing, yeah. And so uh boost, boost and non-boost. So and that's important to know too. If you get a non-boost fork, seems like a good deal, and then your wheel's a boost, it won't go on. Yeah. And now and most bikes these days are boost. They are, but the uh boost, non-boost is definitely something that's come up since that tapered steer. So when you're looking for a used fork, for instance, or just trying to buy a new one, uh, almost everything now that you buy will be boost. Uh there so so that's another thing that we can say is that almost everything that you now buy as a new product and boost will be tapered and boost. And that's 15 millimeter and 15 millimeter, small exceptions on that. Uh dirt jump forks, believe it or not, are 20 mil. And so that is actually yeah, so you gotta watch out for that because that is a different hub span uh uh standard. That same hub standard is now being used on like the Fox podium, and so that's a 20 mil also.

Host - Josh Anderson 43:53

Interesting.

Host - Dane Higgins 43:53

Yeah, and that has been I would say that was that's been the biggest choice that Fox made. That's gonna limit the sales of those, and it shouldn't, but it is.

Host - Josh Anderson 44:03

So steer tube makes sure it fits in your frame. Yep. Everything we just talked about with the axle, the spacing, the width, a diameter, that all makes sure it fits on your wheel. Yes. Or your hub.

Host - Dane Higgins 44:15

And then you've got to make sure you get the appropriate size fork for your wheel.

Host - Josh Anderson 44:19

So right. So that is travel.

Host - Dane Higgins 44:21

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 44:21

No, uh, that is whether it's 26, 27, 5, or 29 or 32.

Host - Dane Higgins 44:27

Uh yeah. Like uh last episode, there aren't any 32s yet for the most part. Intend. Yeah, oh yeah, but I think you have to modify it. I don't think so. I could be wrong. I mean, that intent fork is the same one they use for 29.

Host - Josh Anderson 44:40

We have no clue then. So I don't know what I'm talking about.

Host - Dane Higgins 44:42

Uh usually they're using it upside down so that they can limit the stuff, and then it won't bottom out, and they call it a 32, but it's just a short travel 29. Yeah. Okay. So in it for the most part. Uh this happened with 29s, by the way. When 29s came out, the same kind of things happened that's happening with 32 when it comes to suspension forks. And then probably next year we'll see a bunch of forks come out. And then I would say the next year after that, everybody will have one.

Host - Josh Anderson 45:12

Yep. So okay, so steer tube, the uh tapered, non-tapered, also axle, uh 15 millimeter boost, non-boost. Yep. And then is make sure that if you have a 27-5 bike or a 29 bike, you're getting a 27-5 or a 29 fork. Um what about offset?

Host - Dane Higgins 45:31

So that's a tricky one. So every bike manufacturer will usually list what their preferred offset is. Changing the offset does not like make the bike not work. It just may change the characteristics. Right. And so a lot of people were freaking out. So back in the day before offset really became it's getting standardized and it's getting less 44. Yeah, it's becoming less and less relevant. But I remember when 29s came out, one of the ways to create that space that you needed with the bigger wheel on the bike was to change the offset. And one of the pioneers with that was Gary Fisher, and he had some G2 uh geometry bikes. I remember that. And they had special forks on them, which had a different offset than what we talk about nowadays. Uh, it was offset at the crown, not offset at the at the axle. And so there's different offsets. So again, going with the new modern, getting away from that old tech and talking about the new stuff, the offset effectively will kind of push the bike out or bring it back in. So you can aftermarket wise buy a fork with a shorter offset and maybe shorten your wheelbase, make the bike a little bit more compact, uh, make it a little more playful, and corner a little bit better if it's a 29er. Sometimes the offsets kind of designate whether it was a 29 or a 27.5. Right. Um, so they're getting less and less choices out there.

Host - Josh Anderson 46:57

So this is pretty much the standard is 44 right now, is that true?

Host - Dane Higgins 47:00

Yeah, but sometimes they'll be 46 or sometimes they'll be 42. Um, don't quote me on that, but they're they keep changing them just a little bit, and every manufacturer sometimes has a weird offset. I I I think the moral of the story is don't get too hung up on it. Um, if you have a choice, find out what matches your bike, and that's the way to go. Yeah. Yep. If you don't have a choice and you're getting it 50% off, and you're not a pro rider, I would save some money and get the, you know what I mean? Like it's it's not gonna make or break your bike. Um if you're real sensitive to geometry changes, that's when you really need to notice. Make sure if you're cruising around your local flat trails and pulling a trailer with your kids, it's not gonna matter at all. So Okay, so what about travel? Travel is uh travel will kind of be dictated by the type of bike it's going on.

Host - Josh Anderson 47:51

And some frames say like this will work with like 150 to 170.

Host - Dane Higgins 47:56

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 47:56

Like my gorilla says that. Yeah, but don't you have to change the rear end? Uh between for for the for the setup that I have right now, which is a Narvana, I think it's actually 160 to 180. Okay, it will work with any of those forks. Okay. Without changing the rear end. Okay. All right, when I brought it up from 150 to one set 170, I had to change the rear end and I had to change the shock as well.

Host - Dane Higgins 48:17

So figuring out travel, if you go with stock travel, you're gonna be safe in your geometry choice, and then your bike is gonna perform how it was intended. If you change the travel, it's gonna be perform differently. It will perform differently, and so if you're aware of how it'll change it and it's what you want, so I've said that on this podcast many, many times that I always add 10 millimeters to my forks.

Host - Josh Anderson 48:40

Every time.

Host - Dane Higgins 48:40

That's what I'm saying. My current bike, I'm questioning whether I should have done that, and I'm experimenting with that.

Host - Josh Anderson 48:49

You're struggling. I won't name I won't name the fork here or the bike here. Yeah. But you're struggling to get comfortable on that bike.

Host - Dane Higgins 48:54

It's yeah, it's got two things that I one, it came with a mullet. Yep. I I can talk about it because it's it's kind of perplexing because normally I don't ever have a problem.

Host - Josh Anderson 49:05

But I'm But you're struggling with the mullet a little bit, maybe. I think so.

Host - Dane Higgins 49:09

Yeah. I think what I did was put a 10 millimeter longer fork on a bike that's already mulleted, which made it slacker. And so I kinda it's almost like I put a 20 millimeter fork on. Yeah. As far as geometry. And so I think I went too far. And so now I'm deciding do I go back to the stock. Just take 10 millimeters off and ride it and see how it does, or do I put a 29 on it and ride it and see how it does? I'm trying to figure out. So I'm gonna probably do each one independent, if that makes sense. Figure it out. First thing is gonna be for me is put the 29 on with the 170 fork, see how it does. If it's back to how I want it to be, yeah, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 49:47

So someone's calling guru bikes late at night.

Host - Dane Higgins 49:50

They don't know we're closed. 736. I know. So um, so moral of the story is the mullet or the fork, I'm not sure which, but I doubt it's both. So so when you're choosing your travel, it it could cause that kind of question. And so when we're doing that with people, uh the big thing that we do with travel is if you're gonna go 10 millimeters more, you need to make sure the fork can do that. So I'll give you an example. A lot of bikes right now are 160, 150. That's really, really common. And so for me, I am riding DVO in most cases, and a DVO diamond stops at 160. And so if I go to a 170, which is 10 millimeters over what I normally or what the bike is. I have to go to the next fork up, which is a 38 millimeter stanchion instead of a 36. And so then I can run that at 170. Yep. So now I've got a heavier, stiffer fork, and then I have to decide if that's what I want to do.

Host - Josh Anderson 50:55

So that's where travel can kind of it's not as simple as just the the the number. Yeah. Because you can sometimes if you go up to a higher stanchion or a a higher a larger diameter stanchion, you're gonna get a different you're gonna get different weight, yep, and you're gonna get a different stiffness.

Host - Dane Higgins 51:08

So uh an example of the opposite is uh Bryant in the shop rides tandems. He has a mountain tandem and he puts Fox 36s on there, and he would always drop them to 140 millimeters of travel. I I could be it may be 120, but I the he got a 38 and it would not go as long, as low as 36. As he wanted. Yeah, he wanted the 38 because it's a tandem off-road tandem. He wanted the stiffness, but it would not go down to the travel in the bottom racket, it was way too high for him. And so that was uh that's the opposite case of where you get too much travel and you can't make it short enough.

Host - Josh Anderson 51:45

All right, I think there's one more fit thing. Okay, and this is uh brake adapter. Yeah, so like when I pulled that 38 off, there was a brake adapter that was on there. Yeah. Same, you know, same diameter rotor, same everything, and you're like, no, Josh, with you the zeb that you're putting on, you don't use that adapter, you just put it straight on. And by the way, that worked perfectly.

Host - Dane Higgins 52:03

Yeah, perfect. Yeah, so I uh one of the the things that I uh I'm doing now is I'm Googling it. Like honestly, and and you did that when I asked you. Yeah, Google is getting better at this. Uh, even for me, it's hard to remember at what year they changed uh uh at what year they changed the uh the rotor size. So like I Googled um Fox 36 in 2018, uh if you stuck a caliper on there, uh it would be a hundred and eighty millimeter rotor with no adapter. Right. But in 2027, the 36 is a 200 millimeter with no adapter. Okay. And so that gets so confusing, and that trips customers out all the time. So like if you have a 180, so if you come in with your 2018 fork with a 180 uh uh disc brake, uh, and then I sell you a new 2027 Fox 36, you're gonna have to buy a rotor. Okay. Because you can't put 180 on there. Yeah. And so so that's something that the bike companies, the the suspension companies have been quietly changing. They've been making less and less um smaller rotors fit on their forks, and that also will change. So uh SID 35 is a 120 only, whereas a CID SL, which is a 32mm stanchion, can do a 160. And so you have to remember these things. Right on. And so Google has become my friend to help you figure out as much as I I try to memorize this stuff, it's just it's a lot, and then it's one year it's one way and one year it's another, and it just all right. So just to just to recap everything we talked about, we got the stanchion tapered or no, head tube steer tube. Uh steer tube tapered.

Host - Josh Anderson 53:56

Sorry, not stanchion, steer tube tapered. Yeah, god, I'm losing my mind. There, sorry. Steer tube tapered. Yep. We have the uh also the diameter and the spacing of your hub. Of your hub in your yeah uh axle. What size wheel?

Host - Dane Higgins 54:12

What size wheel, 29, 27, 5, offset, offset, the travel, travel, and and style a fork, and style a fork, you know, and then the brake adapter, so the brake situation and then the brake adapter. So all of these things you have to kind of figure out when you're switching a fork. Oh, there's you want to hear about the weirdest one uh that we have to deal with all the time.

Torque Caps And Hidden Compatibility Traps

Host - Dane Higgins 54:32

Have you ever heard of torque caps?

Host - Josh Anderson 54:34

Yes.

Host - Dane Higgins 54:35

So torque caps are a bane of my existence. So RockShock, in an effort to make their suspension stiffer, created a hub interface that is bigger diameter than stock. Yep. They call it torque caps so that when the hub is sitting in there, there's more surface and it's a stiffer interface. It's it's a it's a cool design, it's really cool. Unfortunately, nobody else does it.

Host - Josh Anderson 55:00

So it doesn't work with all the hubs, is that the ideal?

Host - Dane Higgins 55:03

Uh the any hub, so if you have a torque cap hub that's got big flanges, it won't fit on anyone else's fork.

Host - Josh Anderson 55:13

Oh gosh.

Host - Dane Higgins 55:14

Now, some companies have made this interface where you can pull the torque caps off or you can replace the end caps. So you can sometimes get out of it. Um, but here, because we do a lot of suspension, it's very common. Rock shock 35 comes off the bike and we put a Fox Performance 36 on. Yep. And that's so common. But that damn fork had torque caps, and the hub now has these big, huge flanges, and they won't fit that.

Host - Josh Anderson 55:44

So you have to modify the hubs.

Host - Dane Higgins 55:46

Yeah, and so um we're lucky here because I have a little mini machine shop, and so I take those those hub flanges and just turn them down.

Host - Josh Anderson 55:55

Oh, interesting.

Host - Dane Higgins 55:56

And so we can have it done overnight, you know. Now, uh sometimes if it's you know a name brand hub, a DT Swiss or or a big brand, Hope or something. They'll have the adapter. We could order their appropriate ones, and then the customer gets exactly what they need, and then if they want to put that thing back on a torque cap fork, they could. Right. But in most cases, these are like house brand hubs that we'll probably have a hard time getting new end caps for, and so we just turn them down and they work great.

Host - Josh Anderson 56:24

So um that is another thing that you have to kind of We've probably just scared everyone away from if you don't if you're not a geek, you've probably just scared away. Well, it's you may need some help from your local bike shop to make sure you get the right fork.

Host - Dane Higgins 56:35

It is weird that they make all these little things, you know, make it hard. Yep, you know, make it even harder to try and do this stuff on your own without talking to somebody.

Host - Josh Anderson 56:44

I have run into the torque cap problem a couple times on cheaper bikes.

Host - Dane Higgins 56:47

Yeah, Rocky Mountain was great because the torque caps were removable. So if you pulled them off, you had standard caps underneath, and so you could just pull them off. Yeah. And I was like, they're not doing their job. So the funny thing is, is I don't think that was very stiff, you know. You know, having that piece that can come off. But it was really nice if we sold them a different fork. So but all

Fork Swap Steps And Special Tools

Host - Dane Higgins 57:12

right.

Host - Josh Anderson 57:12

So um, next section I thought we'd talk about maybe just take us through if you're actually doing you know, you've got the right fork, got the right stuff. Take us through the process, the mechanical process of swapping a fork. And if you could include while you're talking about it, there's a couple special tools that you actually need.

Host - Dane Higgins 57:30

So um we do this a lot with the suspension service. So every bike that comes in, the fork has to come off, and then we the fork goes over to the suspension center, gets serviced, and then comes back. So these forks are getting pulled off and put on all the time. So it's it's really uh so if a bike comes in, first thing the wheel comes off. We'll skip over the torque cap probably.

Host - Josh Anderson 57:50

Front wheel.

Host - Dane Higgins 57:51

Yeah, front wheel comes off. Uh there's a little uh cable minder that comes off.

Host - Josh Anderson 57:56

That's on the front of the fork, fork architect. It kind of manages the the brake cable that comes down. Yep, and then by the way, your brake cable always goes inside.

Host - Dane Higgins 58:04

Yes, yeah, and outside. Anybody who argues with me, I'll fight. So we'll just go outside, I'll fight them. I don't care how old I am, I'll fight them. I'll fight dirty. Um, so so first the wheel comes off, the minder comes off, then the brake caliper comes off, and then whatever brake adapter. Um and so now that those are hanging free, we have ways to keep the uh brake caliper together, and then usually it gets wound up and like zip tied or taped to the uh bars, and then um the wheels off. Now we've got to pull apart the headsets. So the first thing is you pull the pinch bolts and just kind of back them off to where there's no tension.

Host - Josh Anderson 58:45

These are the pinch bolts on the stem stem.

Host - Dane Higgins 58:47

Yep. And then uh then here's the tricky the two-handed, you know, uh like circus show. Uh, because you've got to pull the top cap off while you simultaneously hold the fork so it doesn't just drop out of the bike.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:03

And you also don't want to lose all the bits and pieces and spacers. Exactly.

Host - Dane Higgins 59:07

Yeah. And so now we have a trick in the shop because we have old forks that have been retired or broken, or remember we were talking about the worn stanchions? Yep. Uh I keep those old, they call it a CSU. I keep those and we put that back up into the bike to hold everything together.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:23

That holds the the handlebars, the stem, the spacers, everything together.

Host - Dane Higgins 59:29

Now you bought a fancy tool.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:30

I bought a not a fancy tool, I bought a digitally printed tool that was way too expensive.

Host - Dane Higgins 59:35

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:35

Called a stem dock.

Host - Dane Higgins 59:37

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:37

That mounts like straps on your top tube and you can like just slide all that stuff.

Host - Dane Higgins 59:41

It's got little pockets to hold stuff. Super sexy, dude. Yeah. So and it's cool. I I don't think it's needed. It's not practical. Yeah. Yeah. The big advantage to ours is it creates a second steer tube so we can stack the spacers exactly how they were on the bike.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:55

Correct.

Host - Dane Higgins 59:56

So while the the fork's being serviced, we're not losing track of either the spacers or the arrangement that the customer had.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:00:02

Yeah, was it was this spacer above or below or whatever?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:00:05

Yeah. Now now that the fork's off, there's one part on that fork that needs to stay with the bike, and that's the the crown race. And so on the fork is a where the bearing sits on the fork on the on the base of the steer tube. The base of the steer tube is a piece of aluminum or steel, depends on the the headset, and it is angled to match the bearing that goes into the bike, which is also angled to match the cup of the bike that's either pressed in or built into the bike.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:00:35

These are your headset bearings, your bearing.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:00:37

And so that angle of that that race is specific to the bearing and the headset. And so uh FSA has their types of angles, Kane Creek has theirs, Chris Kings are very, very specific, uh Hope has their own. So all these companies have different interfaces, and so that piece has to be pulled off. And the first specialty tool that we have is the tool that we use, um, which is basically a three-prong race extractor. And it's a very expensive park tool, it's heavy, but it pulls it off without marring up stuff. And it basically has three jaws that kind of you can screw in to like uh they're sharp and they go under the race. Yeah. And they can set in and get a good two or three millimeters under, and then it has a big shaft that goes up with a big screwdrive at the top, and that has a plunger inside that pushes down on the steer tube, so it basically pryes that thing off nice and even without damaging. So if you're at your house and you don't have your garage, and you don't have a race removal tool. Uh a couple things. One, some of these races have a split in them, and you can take them off with your thumbnail, they're super easy.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:01:48

So if you see a split in it, you don't need a special tool, you can just pull it up.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:01:51

It'll just pop off, which is nice. Um, the other thing is some forks will have a little divot in that crown uh where the race sits that will give you a little access with a flathead screwdriver to carefully tap one side and then go to the other side, tap it, and and carefully tap that thing off. Don't get handsy or meaty with it. Um you sometimes they're aluminum, you don't want to ding the crap out of those things. Yeah. So uh you scarred yours up on your bike. Using the park tool race remover. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:02:22

The same one you just the big expensive one. I own it.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:02:24

Yep, yeah. And uh I was like, Can I have this? Because I came in and bought a new one.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:02:28

I'm like, there's a little tiny, I want a new one.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:02:32

And I'm like, oh yeah, I'll stick this on something.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:02:34

You're like, Can I have this? I'm like, Yes. You can sell me a brand new one and take my old one.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:02:41

Oh man. Uh so um just a uh, you know, uh disclaimer, uh, the surface of that angle is important for reducing noise. And if you put the wrong race with the wrong bearing, you can have creaking and movement.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:02:58

Um you just don't have a good interface between those two things.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:03:01

Exactly. And and your idea that if you put a scar on that surface, it could create the same option is is valid. There's nothing wrong with that. Um, but when it comes to me, I don't care. You know, I'll stick that on my bike. I don't care. I'll run that thing.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:03:17

Uh I mean you really could just sand it down a little tiny bit and it would be fine. Yeah, I do that stuff all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:03:23

And I would have too, but I'm like, I wanted an excuse to come see you. I'm gonna have the bike for a week and then sell it, so I don't care. Yeah. Um, but uh so the specialty tool right there is that race. Okay. So now you take the new fork, you gotta put that race on. Next specialty tool is a uh there's a a spacer, I don't know what you call it, but basically there's a it's a race setting tool. Yeah, but the the ring that that is designed to go on that particular race has a certain angle so that you don't damage it. Yep. And then there's a tool that you put on top of that and then hammer it down. Bang it down. Yep, exactly. And that's a race setting tool. And so the reason those are important is for what we talked about. You don't want to damage that race, you don't want it wavy, you don't want it deformed.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:04:07

Uh, because hole uh in a two by four. Yes. And I have used that to install a race.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:04:18

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:04:18

No problem.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:04:19

Yeah, because wood is softer than aluminum. Yes. So um I just slowly bang down a hammer on each side and it slowly got it up. I've done so much in hotel rooms to just get by. Um I don't want to hear about what you've done in hotel rooms. I've done so much in hotel rooms.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:04:33

But uh But that's not the last specialty tool.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:04:36

No, no, there's there's more. There's one more, at least one more. So if you bought a new fork, the steer tube is gonna be long. Yep. So once you've put the race on, you kind of have to fit it back onto the bike with all of the spacers and the stem, but not with the top cap because it's gonna protrude way too far, and then you have to do some measurements. Or you can just measure your old one. Uh I would say, and and the only reason I say this is because anybody who works with tape measures will tell you a little end thing goes in and out and can get bent and develop play. And so we do so many fork installs that measuring often, because you're talking about three millimeters, yeah, can matter. Um, so we don't do it that way. We actually fit it and we mark it.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:05:26

Okay. So the right way is to fit it to market.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:05:28

The the reason I don't want to say the right way. Uh what I'm saying is we've found that the consistent way that you don't make mistakes or you minimize your mistakes is to fit it. Yep. Put everything together with the right amount of spacers, and then you make a mark.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:05:41

We use a scribe and you have to cut it a little bit lower than the top of your spacer so that you have enough room for it to compress. Yeah. Now imagine This is like five millimeters.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:05:54

Three. Three, three millimeters. It depends. So here's the tricky part is your top cap can be It depends on your top cap. Yeah, your top cap can be like weirdly shaped or like totally flush. Like there's a Niner has one that's got a big old lip that sits in there. And there's just weirdness. But the idea is that the top cap has to sit on, or you have to put another spacer on top so that when the top cap sits on top, once everything's trimmed and you've put in your star nut setter, by the way, you need a specialty tool for you fit it or you you put it in, you measure it.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:06:28

Yep. You scribe it. Scribe it. Then you cut it.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:06:30

Yeah, now usually we'll cut three millimeters below the scribe.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:06:33

Below the scribe. Yep. And when you cut it, I actually have a special tool that I use to cut it as well that holds the fork steady.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:06:43

You get the the guide, the hacksaw guide.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:06:45

It's like a hacksaw guide.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:06:46

Yeah. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:06:47

Otherwise you can cut it, you know, you can't cut it straight.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:06:50

Which we see all the time. Yeah. So now uh we actually use a pipe tool, a pipe cutter.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:06:55

Okay, so I was gonna ask you, doesn't that indent the top? It totally mushrooms it.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:06:58

Yeah. And that's okay? It does we have another tool that bevels that.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:07:02

Uh when you So you mushroom it and then you unmushroom it.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:07:05

Yeah, and not only that, but it looks dope when we're done with it. Like it looks so pro. Because the no matter those those cutting guides, even some of the best it's not perfect.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:07:15

They kind of I've got a really high-end park one. Yep, yep. And it's still a little bit off. I still was there with a file because I'm anal, getting it like as close as I could.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:07:24

Now, uh in the olden days, uh Chris King headsets were so tight that when you cut with uh uh a pipe wrench, you couldn't get it on, it would mushroom so bad that it it took you longer to to try and prep the lips so you could get the headset together. And so um it's not as bad as it used to be. Uh compression rings are not as tight as they used to be. Okay. And uh the way that they work, they have the splits in them, which we were talking about, makes them easier to get on and off. And so that's not as big an issue. But our our our um I don't know what you call it, it's a it's a cleanup tool.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:07:58

Your bevel tool.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:07:59

Yeah, it basically it's just for pipe. It's we get it at Ace Hardware, it's nothing special. I did buy one that goes in a tool, so we can do them really quick, really quick, yeah. Because uh you can only turn your wrist a certain amount of degrees, you can't make a full turn, and I like it. So you put it in like a drill. Yeah, you can put it in a drill and it it just goes, yeah, and it's it's kind of cool. It's uh just gives it a nice look to it, it almost polishes it. Um and then the headset slides on, no problem. But um but before after you cut it, yep, you still have to install the star nut. The star nut. Now, some forks come with the star nuts and some don't, so that's tricky. Uh if you don't get the star nut, you've got to get one. It's a that's a specialty bike thing, it's not very common. Uh, there are some things that are similar that you use for putting together various things, but bike shops will usually have your star nuts. And then there's a setter tool. The setter tool just drives that thing in straight so that you don't get it crooked, which it's really easy to do. So if you're at home trying to do this with a bolt in there, I have done this, which you've done many times. And it's tricky, and then you usually hit your finger, which sucks.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:09:06

You know, and I'm sitting there hitting the bolt left, a little bit left, little bit left, a little bit left right until I get it.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:09:12

Yep, yeah. And so the the the setting tool is so much nicer. We even have one that actually goes over the steer tool. Mine does too. Yeah, and it's pretty much a one-handed deal. It's really nice. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:09:23

So it's a cheap uh mine's a Pedros tool. I've had it for 25 years. It works great.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:09:28

Yep, yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:09:29

No big deal.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:09:29

Yeah, and and again, if you're not doing this all the time, it doesn't work, it's not worth buying these things. It's sometimes better to have the shop install it. Yeah. But if you like doing this or you're doing it all the time, then it's worth it. What would a fork install cost? Usually $45 in our shop. Okay. So now that's with a little bit of a caveat in case there's not something just goofy. Yeah. You know, so tip your head. If your headsets all rusted or something, that's you know, they might take longer. Yeah. Or if you're $50 for a fork install. Yeah, yeah, that's pretty usually pretty good. Sometimes every once in a while I'll be in a good enough mood where I'll throw it in if you're buying the fork. Um, it just depends on on the situation and everything.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:10:08

How much caffeine you've had that day.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:10:09

Yeah, or if it's like, you know, I'd rather throw in this the install than discounting the fork, you know. Yep. If you buy a 2027 fork, I don't want to discount it. Like it's brand freaking new, but I may throw it on your bike. So uh and then uh so uh fork, now you've got your steer tube cut, you've got your crown race on.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:10:30

Let's put it all back together.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:10:31

Except you gotta grease that lower race. Yep. Uh what kind of grease do you use? Uh usually park. Okay. So just the normal bark park bike grease. I don't get too bougie on headsets. Uh waterproof is preferred. Yep. Um, and then if your bike's been used and you're putting this on, it's a good idea to kind of maybe clean off the bottom uh of your bearing and the race and maybe even clean it out and grease the whole thing. Yep. Um, that's where a lot of the dirt gets into headsets, is at the bottom. The top doesn't get as much unless it's a trainer bike and you're riding the trainer, sweating on it a lot. Uh or if you ride, you know, in a lot of conditions, this would be a great idea. Or wet, or if you're cleaning your bike a lot, this would be a good time to actually pull your bearings out and clean it up. Because it's all yeah, so you've already got it.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:11:15

Pretty much should just pull it apart and do it.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:11:17

It's it's a good idea. Here, because we're really spoiled with very dry climate and the grease lasts and things like that. We don't often have to do that. Um, but yeah, man, if you were in the UK and you're constantly getting water shoved up in there and it's washing the oil the grease out, yeah, man, this would be a great time to put new grease on. So and then make sure you note which way the bearing goes in and you don't put it in backwards, uh, which happens, you know, there's bevels on them. So pay attention. Yeah. You know. Uh on a tapered headset, it's really difficult to get the wrong bearing. One no, one's noticeably smaller than the other. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Um, but now a big trend is to have the same bearing on both top and bottom. Uh so just with a fatter a lot of the pivots now are coming at the same size, top and bottom, and that's allowing for various things. So we're talking about tapered, so the the steer tubes on the fork is still tapered, but the headset may be straight. Yep. But it's now 1.5 straight. So and so that's happening a lot too. So interesting. Now you're not you got your fork on, you put your spacers back on, your headset back on, and now you have to tension your headset, and this happens. Uh this is not a specialty tool, but tensioning your your top bolt on your top cap with your stem loose is meant to only tension your headset, not to tighten. Like, I don't know how to I'm trying to.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:12:39

So you you you you tighten that top.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:12:42

You pull it all together to a point.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:12:44

To a point where it still turns, but it's not like you there's no play.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:12:47

Yes, exactly. And and that is very important because sometimes if you over tighten it, you won't be able to turn.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:12:52

If you under tighten it, it's gonna rattle around.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:12:54

Exactly. And also if you over-tighten it, you could actually yank the steer to the start. Star not out. Yeah, it'll pull. Which I I've done that too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's why I bring it up. So because I know we've seen it. So uh so you have to watch out for that. Uh, there's a lot of videos online, but tensioning your headset is is an art. So if you tension it, get it all together, and then there's play, just give it a little bit more. You know, you have to loosen the stem each time you tension it.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:13:23

So I kind of just do it like hand tight, and then you kind of wiggle it to see if it's moving and you feel it wiggle a little bit, and then I do just another quarter turn, and is it still wiggling? And then I test the steering to make sure it's steering good. And if all that feels good, I'm like cool, I'm done.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:13:36

Yes, yeah. And then your what holds your stem on is the side pinch bolts, yeah. On the on the stem. So technically, if you were to do those correctly, you could pull your top cap off and not have it on the bike. It's not really holding anything together. There will be people that argue about that, that somehow it's structural, but trust me, it's not. Um there's uh, you know, back in the day when we were making hill climbing bikes and bikes that were stupid, stupid light, uh, one of the tricks was to put an expander plug in, which is a plug that goes in and then expands instead of having a star nut. And you use those mainly for carbon fiber steer tubes and then tension everything, tighten the stem, get everything set, pull the expander and the top cap up, and put a nice little smiley face sticker on the top. And that's how you would keep the bike light. That was one of the ways to reduce weight on the bikes. And that is not on a carbon steer tube, it's actually not very smart because carbon steer tubes are usually reinforced with that expander. Yeah. But on your mountain bike, the steer tube is not that top cap is not really meant to hold everything together and it can't.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:14:50

Oh, we're gonna get like 10 bike companies are gonna contact us and say you're full of shit. So we reserve the right to back this up. Well back this out.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:14:58

Well, I I will say that it is always safer to have another nut and bolt in there. Yeah. Um, but don't, you know, it's not it's not critical.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:15:07

More nuts are always better.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:15:08

Here's a better way of saying it. Your pinch bolts are really what's important. Your top cap is not keeping your your stem on. Yep. And so if you are more worried about your top cap being tight than you are your pinch bolts, you're gonna you're gonna have to.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:15:21

It is kind of belt and suspenders.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:15:23

Yeah, I guess so. Uh the problem is it's easy to pull that star nut out. I've done it.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:15:29

And so if you're if you're if you're depending on your star nut to hold it all together, yeah, it's gonna come apart.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:15:34

So um uh the steer tubes are very strong nowadays, so with some exceptions on the carbon stuff. Uh okay. So now you got it all together. I would say ride it and don't be surprised. So just another reminder the brake cable goes inside. Inside. Oh, yeah, I guess we got to finish. So I was I had the fork on, I'm ready to go ride.

Brake Adapters, Rotor Sizes, Pad Shelfing

Host - Josh Anderson 1:15:57

You gotta put the brake back on, you gotta put the wheel back in, yeah. Make sure the caliper's lined up right.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:16:02

So here's where you're gonna find out if you made a mistake with the spacing on the hub. And size of the rotor.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:16:08

Hopefully you've tested that.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:16:10

If you have the right adapter, like all of these things right here, you've already got the fork cut and on your bike before you really know if you've got to go buy more stuff. But you can test everything but the prank caliper. Uh you can even do that. Because if you put if you put the wheel on the fork and then put the caliper on. Yeah, you just have to pull a caliper in the loader. Yeah, it's a little goofy. Yeah. Uh Google's your friend. That sometimes helps. Um, but for the most part, that's where you're gonna find if you have an issue. And we see people come in with their bike, you know, and they're like, I got this far, you know, and then we're basically figuring out the right adapter. Uh, you want to hear the the crappy part of adapters. So I was looking up that 36 stock with a 200 um 200 diameter rotor. Rotor.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:16:57

What if you have a 203 rotor? Well, I did on the Zeb, and you told me if you have a 203 on there, you're gonna have to put a little tiny spacer, which I did. How how thick? Uh I think I put two one millimeter spacers or that's pretty close. And it was like it wasn't touching, yeah. You know, because it usually touches on the outside of the rotor.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:17:18

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:17:19

Seemed good, so I just rolled with it.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:17:20

Yeah, for the most part, it's one and a half. Because if it's three millimeters more, it'd be half of that. So uh usually it's one and a half, is that you want to achieve. Uh, the big thing that I pay attention to is trying to make sure that the two washers are the same thickness. Yeah. Well, because if you're figuring this out and you're rooting through your washer drawer, you know, you're just like, oh, this will kind of work. Yeah. Um it's it's nice if the washers are flat. Some washers are are stamped out of a piece of steel and they have a dome to them.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:17:51

So the other thing that I learned uh when I swapped that fork was the bolts that I had used for my 38 with an adapter are way too long. Are too long for the Zeb with no adapter. Yes. And so luckily I've got a drawer of old rotor bolts. That's a great point. So I had to put it, I had to find some smaller ones, clean off the threads, and uh it worked.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:18:15

Yeah, so that is another thing that you may run into, but uh it's I've you know what if you have a 203 fork with a 200 rotor?

Host - Josh Anderson 1:18:25

Well, what do you do? Uh you know, shave it down by one and a half millimeters.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:18:30

So what I've done is taken the pads out and I bevel the top of the pads. So if if you can picture that pad as is touching a rotor, if the the rotor is not fully engaging that pad and is sitting a little bit below, as that rotor wears the pad away, it can create a shelf.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:18:50

Yeah, but I got you. Okay. And I understand what you're saying. But couldn't you also take the say it's got an adapter?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:18:56

It doesn't that's what I'm saying. If you have a fork that's made for 203 and you got a uh 200 rotor Well, if it's no adapter.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:19:06

If it's made for two if it's made for 203 and you've got a 200, there's no adapter on there, you'd have to like sand down. That's what I said. Not the not the road, not the pads. The pads. But couldn't you also sand down where it connects to the fork?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:19:22

What's more expensive?

Host - Josh Anderson 1:19:24

I hear you.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:19:24

Yeah. It would work. Yeah. But you'd be damaging that fork. Yeah, and that that por that so again in the shop, we have to make these decisions, right? Would a mechanic in that situation it would it be smart to maybe sand down the $20 item or the $350 item, you know? And so uh so we bevel the pads, and so you can bevel the pads. Um the the reason that I bring this up is one of the problems that people will have if they get the wrong adapter, and the 203 and the 200 cause this more than anything, because that three millimeters can can matter. Yeah, um, is you'll get what's called shelfing, where if you have the wrong a smaller rotor, slightly what? I have about two bikes that have this exact situation.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:20:10

Every time I change the rotors, I'm like, why is there all this shelf on the top?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:20:13

Yeah, yeah. So the the shelfing is so it can be dangerous. Yes. Because if the pads wear and the shelves touch, no brakes, the brakes will stop grabbing. And we've had that happen on a road bike.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:20:27

You'll have no you won't be able to stop.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:20:29

Yeah, it basically your your lever is getting pressure because it's feeling it hit, but you're not getting stopping power. And it it's still it's gonna start twisting and binding and it's gonna eventually come to a stop, but you're gonna it's gonna be sketchy. It can be very sketchy.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:20:43

Not as sketchy as Maven brakes, but it's gonna be sketchy.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:20:46

I'm loving the new Maven's. I know. Um, but uh so so moral of the story is this rotor adapter and and size can throw a couple wrenches in. So be careful of that. Take a probably a good, you know, I don't know, couple five rides. Maybe take a look at your pads and make sure they're not doing that. But it's an easy fix if you take that pad without touching the material, because we talked about contamination, um, and just take a good file that's clean and just bevel that top of it so it does so that as it wears, yeah. And that is a good solution for somebody, especially in a situation where they can't buy the right stuff. If I was Shram or Shimano or whoever, I would tell you to buy the appropriate rotor, right? That would what you should do. Swap your rotor. Yeah, and uh in and technically, if I was Shram, you know, selling you brakes or Shimano selling you brakes, I would tell you you should get the right rotor and you should always replace your rotor with your pads and all this other stuff. But truthfully, people do stuff in their garages that shelfing can be dangerous, and so be aware of it, and you can fix it very easily.

Post-Install Checks And Final Thoughts

Host - Dane Higgins 1:21:50

Yep.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:21:50

So okay. Well, Dane, uh true form, I have way over prepared for this episode.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:21:56

We haven't even started riding the bike yet.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:21:57

We haven't started riding the bike yet. Yeah. And I don't think are we do we need to ride the bike?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:22:01

I I'll tell you a couple of little things to watch out for. So we're seeing in the shop, uh, because we do a lot of fork installs, uh that when you re-grease a headset, sometimes it'll settle. So after a ride or two, you may need to check that headset and maybe adjust it.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:22:16

So you have to un untighten the pinch bolts again, yeah, and then and then maybe tighten down a little bit the the top.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:22:23

And in one of our episodes, we talked about checking and maintaining your bike. And you had mentioned you can hold the front brake and kind of rock the bike back and forth. Yeah, that's what you're looking for. Yeah, and you're looking for that headset spacers and plate. Um, so so keep an eye out because when you're putting a fork on, you want to watch out for that. Um I think that's about it for the pitfalls. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:22:43

I mean, we've gone into the whole how to set up a fork previously, so we won't we won't go through that here. Yeah. But again, we have over prepared. I had a whole nother section, fork related, that I wanted to talk to you about on coil forks. I told you I can talk on it. I know I know you I knew this was gonna be.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:22:58

You know what? Let's do the coil forks we'll we'll do it in another later later episode. I want to do a little um research on what's available. Yeah, and I have a lot of people.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:23:12

See, see what it feels like. Yeah. Um, but uh we'll do all that later. Okay. Uh we're hour and 23 in.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:23:20

This was fun. I enjoy talking suspicious.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:23:22

I know I know you love talking suspension.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:23:23

I knew you'd be happy when I sent you this one.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:23:25

I'm like, hey, we're gonna talk about forks.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:23:26

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:23:27

You're like, oh, cool.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:23:28

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:23:28

Welcome to my world. Welcome to my world.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:23:30

Yeah. You get any final thoughts for our listeners? Uh that's it, man. Uh uh forks are you a new fork can really change a whole bike. So don't be shy to spend a little money on a fork. Um, we see that people in the in the shop all the time don't want to spend money on their fork, and I'm I I I'm always blown away because that it's probably the number one thing that keeps you upright on the trail.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:23:55

So, Dane, if you weren't a bike shop owner and you had to spend your own money on a 170 fork for your enduro bike, DVO Onyx. What would you buy?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:24:05

DVO Onyx every time.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:24:06

Why?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:24:07

Uh it just feels so good. It's just uh uh just smooths the trail out. I knew you were gonna say that.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:24:14

I'm trying to get your hat back by DVO. Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:24:17

Well they trust me, they owe me a hat. I'm gonna call Ronnie up right now. Give me, give me a hat! I want one of the cool ones. Yeah. Oh man, I can tell. Watch out for this. I think people.