129 - Shop Talk: Budget Forks, Riser Bars, SRAMs $2k DH Group, & more.

Two old friends, one hot morning ride, and a whole lot of opinions. On this Shop Talk episode, Dane and Josh get into SRAM's eyebrow-raising $2,000 XX DH Transmission and whether a downhill bike even needs that kind of drivetrain. Dane brings the downhiller's perspective — years on the XO DH group, ditching chain guides, and why those Whistler kids running chainless might be onto something. Josh brings the questions the rest of us are thinking.

The conversation rolls into the price chaos hitting the industry, from Specialized markdowns to Ozark Trail bikes earning a spot in Pink Bike's value test, plus an honest look at how some brands cut prices on the backs of local shops. Then the guys settle into rider-friendly territory: why Josh put 50mm riser bars on every bike he owns, what a decade of stack height data actually shows, and a no-nonsense budget fork rundown covering the RockShox Domain, Psylo, and Marzocchi. Plenty of laughs, a dad joke or two, and the kind of gear talk that only comes from decades of wrenching.

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Transcript

Post-Ride Heat And Dad Jokes

Host - Josh Anderson 0:18

I'm pretty sure you were trying to kill me this morning.

Host - Dane Higgins 0:21

I man, that was fun. I could have gone for another hour, honestly. It was getting hot though.

Host - Josh Anderson 0:26

Dude, you know when you're on a one when you're on an e-bike and your heart rate's 167, that's your you're riding some hard shit.

Host - Dane Higgins 0:35

Oh my gosh. That's that's becoming a thing right now. Like there's k I'm seeing like this divide between the e-bikers that feel like it should still be fitness, and then the funny bikers. That's becoming something that that people are kind of buying bikes off of. Yeah. Whether or not the bike will be too easy to ride.

Host - Josh Anderson 0:53

Right. No, I mean it was it was a workout today. Yeah. There's no doubt about it. I was not planning for a workout. Yeah. But I got one. And if my voice sounds scraggly, it's because Dane tried to kill me. Nah, just a little bit. Okay. Uh, I got a joke for you. Okay. Um, what kind of uh mice can walk on two feet? What kind of mice can walk on two feet? What kind of mouse? Mouse? Maybe it's mouse?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:20

Mies. Uh not a clue.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:22

Mickey mouse. Okay, that's Okay, now what kind of duck can walk on two feet? McDonnell duck? Dude, all ducks walk on two feet.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:34

Okay. At first I was like, this is a stupid joke, and then we pulled up. Pulled up out of the nosedive.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:43

So uh kudos to my son Matt Anderson who did that joke on me last night. Nice.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:47

He was so proud of himself. Yeah, that's that's decent. So that is a better dad joke than most.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:53

So right on man, well, uh, we haven't seen each other in a minute.

Group Travel Hacks In Costa Rica

Host - Josh Anderson 1:58

I've been in Costa Rica, which was rad. Slummin' it. Slumming it. Well, I'll I'll share one like note um of something that we experimented on for our listeners, and I thought was really cool. We were able to upcycle our experience while simultaneously downcycling our cost of this trip. And we did that by traveling with three different families in addition to ours. We had 17 people total, and we like rented this like totally pimped out compound with like all you know, all the all the stuff.

Host - Dane Higgins 2:28

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 2:29

Um, hired a chef to come in and cook for us. Um, and we all did it like cheaper than you would do like a hotel room and restaurants. It was just fantastic. Um, so if you can find the right, I think the key is you gotta find the right families that you want to deal with that you can actually deal with, right? And have a little bit of separation at church and state.

Host - Dane Higgins 2:47

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 2:47

Um, but it was so rad that at the end, like everyone was like, Well, where are we going next? Yeah, right. Um, this was awesome.

Host - Dane Higgins 2:54

So that's how we used to do the team back in the day, is uh we'd have at least 10, we had 50 people on the no brakes team, and yeah, and we would travel to races together and and rent big cabins and make it cheaper for everybody.

Host - Josh Anderson 3:08

It's amazing with the quantity of volume. Yeah, like uh what you can do there. And uh shout out to Piotavita Rides, which is uh in Las Catalinas, uh Costa Rica, in the Guanacaste region. Uh great bike shop, rental shop there, uh uh interesting town that's like uh a walking town modeled after some Italian towns, I believe, but there's 40 kilometers. I don't know what that is in miles, I'm not that smart, but there's 40 kilometers of uh purpose-built single track that just looks sweet. Um so if you're there and it's uh the weather is uh uh prohib you know permittable, uh check out Las Calinas in Guanacasta. It looked like it was pre-rad. Right on the right on the water, you're like you're like riding over top of the beach and all that stuff, like cliffs.

Host - Dane Higgins 3:50

Like on the cliffs looking good. Oh yeah, that's a destination.

Host - Josh Anderson 3:53

Yeah, for sure. And uh they had uh real great bicycles, like like you know, name brand, yeah, high-end, e-bikes, regular bikes, everything. Nice. You can rent whatever you wanted, which what which we didn't know in Costa Rica what we were gonna see.

Host - Dane Higgins 4:07

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 4:07

Um so yeah, Pure Vida, which is like they're saying for like I guess like live life or pure life. I that's uh that's a Costa Rican saying, but that was rad. And then uh we've been building out, we bought a transit van, so we've been building out that. We'll talk a little bit about the products and stuff as we go through today. Um that's a huge project. It is can be imagined. Yeah, I tell you what, if you really want to test your relationship with your partner, it's like a tandem. Design a van build at the same time together. Yeah. Oh my god. I finally sat Lacey down and I was like, uh, okay, what is like I'm gonna we can each pick one thing that like you have to have. Yeah. And for me, it's like I have to store four bikes inside the van.

Host - Dane Higgins 4:49

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 4:49

So whatever we do, I don't give a shit.

Host - Dane Higgins 4:51

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 4:52

But we have to store four bikes inside the van. So we were kind of going through that whole process, but uh yeah, I feel like we're newlyweds again, figuring it out.

Host - Dane Higgins 4:59

Yeah, that's that's hard too, because I saw it. It's not like the super huge stretched one, like it's not oversized. It is.

Host - Josh Anderson 5:07

It is it's the longest transit you can get and the tallest transit you can get. Really? Okay. It's uh called Transit High Roof EXT.

Host - Dane Higgins 5:13

And you're still having a hard time getting four bikes inside it.

Host - Josh Anderson 5:16

Yeah, yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 5:18

Yeah, I I I watched a couple episodes of some YouTube channels where they're doing vans.

Host - Josh Anderson 5:24

Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 5:24

More or less uh like the Chevy Express. Like we have and um lot less room in those. Yeah, and you're bending over and stuff, and and just it's amazing how people will convert these things. They're just amazing.

Host - Josh Anderson 5:36

So ours is gonna look more like a warehouse than a luxury suite. Yeah. But uh, it'll be functional.

Host - Dane Higgins 5:42

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 5:42

Anyways, good to see you, man.

Host - Dane Higgins 5:44

Yeah, yeah. It's

China Episode Feedback And Formats

Host - Dane Higgins 5:45

been a little while. Um, our last episode's doing really well.

Host - Josh Anderson 5:47

Yeah. The uh the China China episode. Yeah. Uh Chinese products. Um, just you know, for clarity, you know, we got a lot of comments, a lot of engagement. Thank you, you all for listening and sharing it.

Host - Dane Higgins 5:58

Great engagement. Engagement on that episode.

Host - Josh Anderson 6:01

Um, I want to make sure it was clear, like, we're not advocating for those brands or those products. Yeah. We were really just saying, hey, this is something that's happening. Yep. Um, you know, what should we do about it? It they're coming. Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 6:14

You're here. Yeah, just kind of be aware. Showing people, you know. And and it's it's our perspective. You know, we're in the States, so we're not as global, you know. We don't know what's going on in Europe. And so uh a couple of our our European uh listeners let us know that, which is great. Which we're gonna do. It's a global market.

Host - Josh Anderson 6:33

What's getting disrupted, you jackass.

Host - Dane Higgins 6:35

Yes, exactly. Yeah. Um, but but at the same time, that was just our perspective on what's going on. So um and it's it's keeps going. It's crazy.

Host - Josh Anderson 6:44

And we don't mind like uh the comments that challenge us. No, like that's okay, and we take we understand everyone's perspective, and there's a lot of trolls. That's one thing we've been teach trying to teach each other is that like there's some trolls out there and we can't let the trolls bring us down.

Host - Dane Higgins 6:58

I I tell you what, I read those. There was no trolls in there. They're really cool people that just had their perspective, and it was really helpful. And it makes us better if we get those. So we really appreciate people chiming in.

Host - Josh Anderson 7:09

And 99.6% of them we will listen to and pay attention to, and point four percent we're just gonna put right in the trash. Yeah, yeah. And not let her bring us down.

Host - Dane Higgins 7:17

It's true.

Host - Josh Anderson 7:17

So all right, so we got a shop talk episode today. Yep. Uh if you're just you know to remind each other, we this is uh you know, one of our three formats shop talk, bike shop secrets, and then special topics. Um, today's shop talk, and we break shop talks into four different categories. What are people talking about? What grinds our gears? Is the hype real? And bang for the buck, and we've got a handful of topics to um go over. You want to start or you want me to start?

Host - Dane Higgins 7:42

You you start because you were talking about um shram, and I was really interested that I was talking about shram.

Host - Josh Anderson 7:49

I actually have

SRAM DH Transmission Price Reality

Host - Josh Anderson 7:50

two things in this category. I'm breaking form, but that's okay. Um so the first thing I thought was interesting, and I don't own a downhill bike, never owned a downhill bike. I've ridden a downhill bike a couple times, just rentals at uh bike parks.

Host - Dane Higgins 8:03

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 8:04

Uh they're fun, yeah, big. I really don't know how to ride them. Um, but man, do they are they forgiving? Yeah. That that much is true. Um, but I and you and I frankly don't you don't pedal a lot on a downhill bike, not as much as you would on a different type of bike, and don't think you need as much as many gears. So I don't think a lot about the drivetrain when I'm talking about a downhill bike. But I saw that Shram released a downhill version of the transmission drivetrain, seven speed, and they're calling it Shram XX DH, Axis Transmission 7 speed. Um comes with cranks that were 150 to 165, which I thought was interesting that they're going like small, they're found that trend of the smaller, smaller, smaller. But then I saw it was like $2,000.

Host - Dane Higgins 8:56

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 8:56

It's I was like, for s I don't like when I think of a downhill bike, I don't think of um uh the d the drivetrain, and I'm like, man, people spend two thousand dollars. So what so you you're a downhiller, man. Who how how did you respond to this?

Host - Dane Higgins 9:10

So like I've been riding the Shram XO DH group for years. So Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 9:15

And is it seven speed?

Host - Dane Higgins 9:17

Seven speed, yeah. And uh shorter derailer, uh that makes sense, right? Um it's uh my DH cranks. I have the XO DH cranks, which are beef beefed up version. Um they carbon or are they aluminum? Carbon, okay. And then uh I took my chain guides off. So uh that's kind of controversial, and we're in really rocky terrain. But um back in the day, when I was back in back in the day, uh you would have to run a front uh chain guide. Otherwise the bouncing would just take your chain.

Host - Josh Anderson 9:48

Is that before the derailers had clutches built into them?

Host - Dane Higgins 9:51

And before narrow wide. Oh, okay, yeah, right.

Host - Josh Anderson 9:54

And so narrowwide maybe it's worth yeah, maybe it's worth just expanding on it.

Host - Dane Higgins 9:58

So narrow wide chain rings, uh the profile um advances the chain onto the chainring and straightens it as it's coming on. So your chain doesn't walk off of the chain ring if you've shifted up to your easy gear and it's at an angle. Right. Um the tooth that's wide keeps the chain straight and lets the narrow one come up next and get into it, and then that one keeps it straight, which then lets the wider one straighten it again. And so that narrow wide has been a big revolution in making one by work.

Host - Josh Anderson 10:30

And uh So a combination of that and the clutch. Yeah. Which which stops the derailer from from bouncing so much.

Host - Dane Higgins 10:35

Yeah, because the the rear, the as the rear goes through stuff, you can get this kind of like uh, you know, when you take a hose and you kind of whip it, and you can get that little hoop to go all the way down. Um the chain does that too, and it can whip the chain right off the chain ring.

Host - Josh Anderson 10:48

So I don't think we're supposed to sing. We're gonna get like that.

Host - Dane Higgins 10:54

Like YouTube's gonna get no copyright something or other. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 10:59

I just humed uh salt and pepper.

Host - Dane Higgins 11:00

Yeah, I know. I love salt and pepper. Um so anyway, uh uh back in the day we didn't have that narrow wide. Uh so we would run single speed chain rings. Yep. So they didn't have shift ramps, but they would still, if you shift it up to your easy cog, they would be at an angle and they would try and walk down, so you'd have uh some sort of chain guide, either a gated on. Yeah, a gated one or a pulley one. Like the old school ones were MRP and they had these orange pulleys on the top and the bottom, and they would guide the chain on so no matter what angle, it would stay on, and it felt kind of like a tractor. Right. So I don't know, uh a few years ago on one of my downhill bikes, I broke my chain guide and I had a narrow wide chain ring on it, and I just noticed that it wasn't my chain wasn't coming off, and so then I it was plastic. Just take it out there. Yeah, so I just started the pieces broke, and I'm like, I'll just take it off and see how it does. And man, I raced like three seasons like that and didn't have it. Now, I I can't say that that's gonna be the same for every bike because we know that some high pivots will have some chain lengthening that may cause that to be an issue, and so that could get a little too overwhelming for some narrowwides to stay on. So you still may need a chain guide on some bikes.

Host - Josh Anderson 12:11

So what do you think about this drivetrain? I mean, like I know with the transmission, one of the cool things is that you've got power under you can shift under load, yep. Which I can imagine in a downhill bike would be sweet because you're you know, you're moving really fast through janky stuff, yep. And being able to not have to think about when you're shifting and and all that stuff, that can be beneficial. But I just can't wrap my head around $2,000.

Host - Dane Higgins 12:32

I think I think you know, Shram's premise is that it's premiere group, it's it's like World Cup level. Okay. So money's for them is a little less of an issue, but I've already heard there's a lower end group. Coming out. Yep, yeah. And um, but what they're doing is they're kind of moving their T-type ecosphere, you know, into the downhill. Okay. So now you have direct mount derailers, so they directly mount to the bike and they really are mounting on the axle, so they're a much stronger interface. Um the derailers are more modular, so if you tag one on a rock and break a piece, you can often get just pieces. Um they're more durable for taking hits. Um the downhill group is shorter, so I think what it is is Shram just trying to make the new stuff that they've put out for everybody else also for downhillers so that the downhillers aren't running. Like if you're a Shram athlete, think about that. If you're a Shram athlete and you're running like six-year-old, you know, uh Shram technology, uh, they just I think they want to fill that need. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 13:36

So yeah, it's interesting. Like the trend. I mean, do you have any thoughts on this? I hear people talk about this whole trend. I think it's in the center of it's like whistler with these kids running chainless.

Host - Dane Higgins 13:46

Yeah, yeah. So um I think chainless downhill races should be a thing. I think that's awesome. And um, we were at Angel Fire one year riding the lift, and and uh this rider had no chain. Uh-huh. And um we were like, so what's up with that? And they're like, Yeah, I just can't afford a a derailer, and mine's all hashed up, and I don't I have worn out chain rings, and uh, I can get down the mountain fine like this.

Host - Josh Anderson 14:11

So like at that point, he's not thinking about pedal kickback or any of that stuff. It's just like it's just out of necessity.

Host - Dane Higgins 14:16

Yeah, and if you think about it, there is no pedal kickback, right? With that, with no chain. And so uh, and there's a certain level of like training that you can get where you're teaching you how to pump, yep, and to you can't make up for it when in strokes. Yep, exactly, and to keep off the brakes and be able to use the flow. And and so I think it's great. I think uh there I think there should be some chainless downhill races. I think that would be a really exciting, fun thing to do and uh kind of show talent versus technology, you know. Uh somebody talented on a on a chainless bike, the talent is going to show more clear than the technology. I think you would crush it on a chainless bike. I you know I I I wanna I wanna go to one of our our parks and and try it. Like I think it'd be cool. The only thing that freaks me out a little bit is um if you are on on the racing, you're usually not doing this, but on just riding bike park, you can get into situations where you have to kind of wheelie drop or come off an obstacle where you have to give it a good stroke to get your front end up. And you lose that ability, and you lose that ability. And so uh there is there is techniques that you would have to change, but I think the downhill racing doesn't see that as much. As much. Yeah, because you're just going so fast.

Host - Josh Anderson 15:22

Right on. Well, that was my first one.

Host - Dane Higgins 15:24

Cool. Um and then I had uh I had one. Go for it. Um so I think so.

Price Cuts And Bike Shop Margins

Host - Dane Higgins 15:31

This is the the segment of what are people talking about? Yep. Biggest thing I'm seeing is price. Uh price, price of stuff, how much stuff is, uh the price drop, like there's a bunch of things dropping in price, but also like you mentioned on the this drivetrain, it's high price. Right, you know, and so um notably like specialized lowered price on a bunch of their bikes. Um Norco has this new um uh e-bike that came out the site, uh, and they put in a different motor system and it's alloy to lower the price, and it seems to hit a much more comfortable price range. Yep, you know, um and then uh Amflow has a new bike coming out, although nobody knows when it's gonna get to the States anyway.

Host - Josh Anderson 16:16

Um the rest of the world has it we've heard some rumors on why, but we won't talk about it because we can't substantiate them.

Host - Dane Higgins 16:22

Um but so far in the States they're not released uh other than to YouTubers. Um, but it's uh that's true. I'm not kidding. The marketing bikes is what they are, you know. Yep. Um but the that bike is like gonna be $49.99, so which is crazy. Um and then the Walmart bikes, you know, I was watching uh Ozark Trail. Yeah, the the full suspension and a hardtail, you know, hitting these these really budget points. And so they're it's doable, I guess, is the question.

Host - Josh Anderson 16:49

It's interesting that Pink Bike just did a value bike test.

Host - Dane Higgins 16:52

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 16:52

And they and one of the bikes they tested was Ozark. A Walmart. Was an Ozark Trail.

Host - Dane Higgins 16:56

Yeah, exactly. And you know, it kind of changes what Walmart's trying to do. I think that's a different bike than I mean the owners are big mountain bikers, so it's no surprise, right? Yeah. Or at least the relatives of the owners. I'm not sure how that works. Yeah, me neither. So yeah. I don't really know what I'm talking about. Uh but but people close to Walmart really into bikes. And that's that's why Bentonville is what it is, right? Yeah. So uh, you know, um there's a couple direct to consumer companies that are coming out with cheap bikes. So I'm kind of I'm trying to figure out is lowering the price something uh so we're dealing with a brand, and I'm not gonna bring up this brand, and you don't need to either. Because it's not one that you're thinking of, because we haven't talked about this. But there's a brand that we just uh were looking at getting their new bikes, uh-huh, and I looked at their bikes and I compared them to one of our popular brands, and they were hitting about six to eight hundred bucks cheaper for a comparable bike, and they're similar brands. Right. And I was like, wow, how are they doing that at the same for the most part, you know, like in our same kind of spec. Yeah, and and you know, brand cost that we talked about in the middle of the um and so I'm like, how are these two companies have drastic price difference at the same equipment, same specs, probably the same everything? And why is one cheaper? And then I will give you the bike shop perspective. Uh what I looked at is the margin with one company was healthy and something we could sustain, and the other company was not. So it was you. They're just screwing you. They were just lowering our our ability to make money. And and no, and I'm not kidding.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:28

So you're like, no, I don't think I'll carry that.

Host - Dane Higgins 18:30

Well, uh uh so so that's the thing. So like people want lower price, yeah, and uh these companies are trying to figure out the creative ways to have the lower price. This particular company just decided the bike shop should get less, and that that weighs on my decision, you know.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:46

And so you sure you don't want to call the company out?

Host - Dane Higgins 18:49

No, because uh, you know, um I think one of those things is like this is what they are trying to figure out, you know.

Host - Josh Anderson 18:55

You know who you are.

Host - Dane Higgins 18:56

Yeah, so is that company actually getting the bike cheaper? No, they're not selling it any cheaper. Um they're just making the required. See, here's the here's the key that bike shop people have to deal with. The required price is required to sell it at, or or it's the minimum that we can sell it at. So like I could mark it up and make it equal to the other brand.

Host - Josh Anderson 19:19

But you're not gonna sell it.

Host - Dane Higgins 19:20

But you can just go online and see that I'm now charging more and then I'm the bad guy. You know, and so they're they're they're basically saying this this is what you have to sell it at, and we've just raised your cost. And so they're not taking a hit, but they're lowering their price. And I I don't know if that's the right way to go. Because some of the comments from China were you know, um America has too much uh our our stuff's too expensive, and things like that, and and there's too much bikes are too expensive and stuff. And I looked at this scenario and I go, here's two companies have the same product, roughly the same cost, and one just lowered the MSRP to to be more competitive. Yep. And but they just did it downstream of themselves. Yeah, they didn't do it to themselves. Right. Like I would like to see them take the hit.

Host - Josh Anderson 20:05

And I think like that's an interesting thing, and we a lot of the comments the people talk about price, price, price, price, price. Yeah. And all the comments on the China episode.

Host - Dane Higgins 20:12

And yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 20:12

We didn't talk about this really, but like will this downward pressure on the industry make price more important and ultimately bring the price down of many products because companies are gonna have to offer have offerings that are more affordable.

Host - Dane Higgins 20:28

Yeah. Um and and in order to compete. Where are they gonna find that? If so, like if these companies are getting their stuff from these Chinese manufacturers, are they gonna now be able to demand a lower price? They're competing with themselves, you know what I mean? So it's kind of weird. So so that was the thing that people are talking about. Well, did you have a th a third one?

Host - Josh Anderson 20:51

I do, I do.

Van Bike Storage And USA Machining

Host - Josh Anderson 20:52

Um so uh this is something, and maybe it's not everybody talking about, but because I'm building a van right now in the van life community, this is something that's talked about. So I'm trying to figure out how to fit four bikes inside the van.

Host - Dane Higgins 21:05

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 21:05

And uh I found I ran into this product uh that I'd never heard of this company I'd never heard of before, which is Freedom Coast USA product, which I think is kind of cool to highlight since we just did an episode on China. So let's talk about USA for a second.

Host - Dane Higgins 21:18

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 21:18

But uh they're a California company, Freedom Coast, um, and they make an adjustable fork mount that can work with L track, or you can mount directly to a flat surface like a board or the you know your the side of your truck or the butt, you know, the bed of your truck or whatever. And it has many different like mounting options, adapters, angles that you can put it at to move it up, down, backward, forward. Just like a super um like flexible fork mount for to hold your bike with the front wheel off uh as you're transporting it.

Host - Dane Higgins 21:55

Yeah. It looked really cool. Like it not just that it you could angle it down. Different angles to change where the bike is lengthwise, but then there was two different heights that you could put the end caps in and you can change end caps. Yeah. And then the L track stuff I think is cool because you can slide it around. Yeah, so if you're putting different bikes in all the time and not always the same ones, your mounting points may need to be in different, or at least your spacing may need to be different. May be different. Yeah. Or after your trip's done and it's just you and Lacey, and maybe the kids aren't going and you're only taking two bikes, now you can respace them and you don't have to unmount them or anything like that. You can you can just slide them over.

Host - Josh Anderson 22:34

So yeah, I may look at some little pieces of L track to mount to the board and see how much vertical, whatever. I don't get the details. Yeah. The downside is these are expensive. Yeah. It was 160 bucks for one. Wow. Plus and you get one set of adapters, plus 20 bucks more if you get a different set of adapters. So like the adapters are they come standard, or the ones I ordered came standard with like a 15 by 110 boost.

Host - Dane Higgins 22:57

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 22:57

But we also have gravel bikes which are 12 by 100, I think.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:00

I think that's cheaper than if you bought like a one-up, you know, rack to put in because a lot of people do that with sprinters. They'll put the like a one-up mount on the side and put the bike sideways.

Host - Josh Anderson 23:11

So I spent six hundred and eighty dollars on four fork mounts.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:17

Okay. Yeah, that's that's pricey. Uh talking about prices coming down. But I think these things will last forever. Do you think China will have them next year at $25?

Host - Josh Anderson 23:28

Maybe. Maybe. But I don't feel bad about my purchase and supporting a US company.

Host - Dane Higgins 23:32

So Freedom Coast, um, we knew about it because they make um some cool uh SRAM access pod mounts. Okay. Yeah, you actually have them in the shop. Yeah, we have them in the shop. They turn the access pods sideways so that your buttons are next to each other instead of above each other. Okay. Uh one above the other. And so it gives you more uh ability to kind of fine-tune where you want to put those buttons. They're kind of cool. I'm gonna put some on my bike and try them out because I'm still not I you know, I still feel like the the electronic shifting buttons are never where I want them.

Host - Josh Anderson 24:06

Do you remember like what those things cost? I don't. I'm looking it up. On their website, they're 54 bucks.

Host - Dane Higgins 24:12

Yeah, that sounds about right. Okay. They're I mean, they're machined aluminum. You get them in anodized colors. I got I got some in that are like uh the I think they call I can't remember what they call them, but they're like Cashima looking, so they would match your fox suspension and stuff. So I think they're I think they're cool, and I think for people that are struggling with where their thumb is. Yeah. And we even have some people that have come in for with arthritis and they're riding access. I need this in a different way. Yeah, just because they they they literally are having uh having issues with their joints. And so I think I like that solution.

Host - Josh Anderson 24:43

So well uh the product seems just bulletproof um really well. I mean the the manufacturing, um, the finish, the fit, everything is just they're they're fantastic.

Host - Dane Higgins 24:52

A lot of companies uh machining companies doing stuff. So we got RevGrips, who's a machining company, so I'm running their STEM. Yeah. You can go back to Thompson, uh Tom Well, Five Dev. Five Dev. Yep, uh Freedom Coast. Uh there's uh another one, I can't remember who it is, but they're uh oak components. Okay. Uh so I think I've seen they like they make levers. Yeah, so there's some cool machining companies that are like I think they I honestly I think they just take up machine time making these little projects until some aerospace company hires them to make something that makes the money.

Host - Josh Anderson 25:27

Well I think that's what Thompson does. I think they do aerospace and bikes.

Host - Dane Higgins 25:30

Yeah, and a little squirrel is back in the 90s, uh, there was a big push for there was a big slowdown in aerospace in machining, and there was a big push for this in the podcast in USA. And so a bunch of machine companies were started to make really cool bike stuff. Yep. And then as soon as that industry turned around, they went away and started making the big profits with that. Exactly, yeah. So interesting. Uh okay, so now we're on to grind the gears. Yeah, you want to go first, you want me to go first? You go first.

Host - Josh Anderson 26:00

Okay,

Sidewall Tears And Cheap E-Bike Headaches

Host - Josh Anderson 26:01

so we have had since we switched from tubes to tubeless, we have uh, you know, there there's obviously all kinds of great benefit. There's less weight, there's um no more pinch flats. But one of the cool features that's happened, I think, since we switched is the ability to repair a puncture without having to remove the wheel or we remove the tire. And so we do that when there's a puncture, you know, with a bacon strip, or we've talked about the Stan's Dart product. There's other products out there too.

Host - Dane Higgins 26:31

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 26:32

And that's fantastic. But what doesn't exist, and because this keeps happening to my wife, which is why this is a big deal, at least not that I know of, yeah, is I don't believe there's a product that from the outside of the tire you can repair a sidewall tear that's like, you know, and this could be just a simple patch that could go over it. Why doesn't that exist? Yeah. So that you don't have I mean, like like Park makes some that you can put on the inside, but then like the inside is all full of stands or ceiling or whatever, and so like to get it clean is like impossible. You're never gonna be able to use that thing. Uh I think it's like their TBH one or something like that. I can't remember what it's called. But um, why is there not an external patch to just get you home? Not something that's gonna last forever, but just to get you home.

Host - Dane Higgins 27:17

Like just for the sidewalls. Just for the sidewalls. Because I could see where if it's in the knobs, it's just hard to make it contour. Nope, just sidewalls. Uh but the sidewall is you're right. Like, can't they have something that just kind of vulcanizes?

Host - Josh Anderson 27:30

Just like an old school tire patch.

Host - Dane Higgins 27:32

I know people use old patches and they've done that, but you've got the external air pressure pushing, and there's a certain time that that glue has to set up. And so I wonder if it's the the problem is on the trail you need to air it up right away, so it has to be airtight immediately. And so a proper vulcanization doesn't have a chance to do that.

Host - Josh Anderson 27:54

I don't know.

Host - Dane Higgins 27:54

Um But it seems like in 2026 this should be a possible thing. Like, what about a super glue patch? Like, would that work? Or is there like a super glue for rubber? Yeah, you know, that that isn't like Or is it just super glue? Yeah, yeah. Uh I think super glue gets brittle. Um I've tried to super glue Legos and they don't super glue. Have you ever tried that? No. It's weird. Interesting. Yeah, you need like a chemical response or something to the plastic. Yeah, the plastic doesn't uh yeah. I'm not I'm I have no idea how you're not a chemist? Not at all. Um but I do know that there's like certain Lego like uh it's it's it's it's like welding plastic. It's a chemical welding of plastic or something they use. So I know that superclue doesn't work on a lot of stuff, and um it works on our fingers awesome. And that's kind of what it was developed for.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:41

Well, let's put this out there if you're a chemical engineer and you think you have a way that we could solve this simple, cheap solution that we could, you know, have a have something like carrying my pack that I can just pull off, clean it off, and stick it on and get my ass home.

Host - Dane Higgins 28:56

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 28:56

Like that shit I think that would be a popular product.

Host - Dane Higgins 28:59

So I saw on YouTube or Instagram or something, I'm not really sure, uh, this uh advertisement that comes up or video. You know, there's always a video, and it's it's really an advertisement, but it's interesting enough to watch. And there was this water leak going on, and they took this like like flexel or something? It was it was like this it was like a a a big stick of rubber type stuff that would squeeze it out. Just think like toothpaste but big. Yeah. And they just toothpaste across this flowing, you know, outpour of water, and it sealed it right up. And and I'm like, if they can have that, can't we have something like that for well I tell you what, next time, next time that uh that episode or that advertisement pops up.

Host - Josh Anderson 29:40

Yeah, we should buy some and try it. Let's try it.

Host - Dane Higgins 29:42

Let's just see maybe something already works. Yeah, and it was to metal too. So it like went on metal.

Host - Josh Anderson 29:46

Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 29:47

So, you know, and you'd think that'd be we don't even need metal. Yeah, I know.

Host - Josh Anderson 29:50

So all right, that's something that grinds my gears is that that solution does not exist as my poor wife struggled to get home again with a sidewall tip sidewall rip.

Host - Dane Higgins 30:00

So uh mine is um mine is a product of you sending me what we're gonna talk about at a certain time. Uh-oh. Where something was happening in the shop where I was like pissed about. So I triggered you. Well, you just you timed it to where something was going wrong, or not wrong, but it was a frustration we have at the shop.

Host - Josh Anderson 30:21

Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 30:21

And so normally this doesn't bug me that much because it's not happening that Ben's like on the side texting me, hey Josh, don't talk to Dave about this. Yeah. Well, it's not even that. So it's so what it what the scenario is is we get a lot of customers that come in with these super low cost e-bikes that they're using for for commuting. Okay. And they just want to find a way around. They don't want to spend five thousand dollars on an uh on a high-end e-bike. Um, and so they're just looking for the cheapest possible thing off of Amazon or wherever wherever. I've seen them at Walmart, I've seen them all all over. You can get them all over. Yep. And they're um inexpensive. And the scenario that grinds my gre gears is that they are just trying to keep their wallets from being emptied and get to where they need to go. So they don't have any ulterior motive, you know. And they get these things like let's say us, let's say it's six or seven hundred bucks, you know. Six, seven. Um I'm not sure, but but around that range, which we can't touch. We we won't sell anything that's even close to that. No. Sometimes they're scooters, sometimes they're bikes, sometimes they're like it looks like a scooter, but it has pedals, like it's weird. Um, so it but they come in, they often have the motor built into the wheel, and they often have weird-size wheels that we don't normally stock, although we've started to stock more tubes. But the the what grinds my gears is that the the customer has this perception of how much things should cost based on what that thing costs, right? And they the manufacturer of these things do not make it easy for these to work on or deal with in any way. And so our labor cost is much higher. The time that we have to spend on these things could be half the price of the bike. Is is so high. Yeah. Like changing a mountain bike flat, even with cush core in it, is so much easier than dealing with one of these things with all of the stuff bolted onto the back, trying to get the wheel off to not hurt the wires in the motor, to lift it, you know, and not have it just drop out of the stand as soon as you loosen the the bolts on the wheel. And then and then the customer's expectation is this should be like ten bucks. And they, you know, we should just take care of it while they wait. And there's so many disconnects that are happening.

Host - Josh Anderson 32:42

And I'm again, I don't I just when you thought the nightmare of tube replacement had ended, it's back.

Host - Dane Higgins 32:50

Well, and and I don't I don't blame the people that buy these because I think they're they're just genuinely trying to get to where they're going and they just are trying to do it on a on a budget and and and low cost. But these manufacturers and the sites that sell them do not offer any help. There's no infrastructure. You so when we talk about new brands coming into like e-bikes, uh, I know that Pivot really struggled with Avinox uh putting that motor in their bikes because they wanted uh they wanted the infrastructure in place that if their customers needed help, it would be there and it wouldn't be just this shadow company that that they have no help with. And so that was very important to them.

Host - Josh Anderson 33:29

And while these companies are are selling these things There's no one yeah back to the we talked about that in the China episode there's no infrastructure.

Host - Dane Higgins 33:37

Yeah, no infrastructure, no support. And then the customers are kind of like really in a place. Yeah and then we're the solution. Well, we're the ones that give them the bad news.

Host - Josh Anderson 33:48

Yeah, and so of course we get you almost need to have like a little sign like your sub-1, thousand dollar electric thing is very hard for us to work on. The price of the replacement is gonna be more than you expect.

Host - Dane Higgins 34:00

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 34:01

Understand that when you before you ask it.

Host - Dane Higgins 34:03

And not only that, but I I do want like these companies to have some sort of like information. Or I I I it's it's uh obviously it grinds my gears because it's a tough spot, you know. We don't want that person to be stranded, we don't want them to not be able to be taken care of. At the same time, if I've got to spend two hours to change a a tube on one of these things, because I've got to take fenders off and and support the wheel and do all these things, and then you've got to struggle with this tiny 12-inch wheel. And then maybe the only way you can get a tube is off of Amazon. You know, like all of these things come together to cause all of this inefficiency. And then if you're a customer who wants to work on this, it's gonna be a nightmare. If we're trouble, we're having problems. Imagine that.

Host - Josh Anderson 34:51

And you've got all the specialty tools and the know-how and the experience.

Host - Dane Higgins 34:53

And don't even get started on if there's an electrical problem. We've had a couple people come in where they're like, Yeah, it's not working, can you figure it out? And we're like, we have no resources to figure that out. There is nobody to support that. You need to take it where you bought it. Well, I bought it off Amazon. I don't know what to tell you. You have to take it to Amazon, I guess. I don't know what to do. And and again, like after the fact, everybody finds this out after they spent the money, and the company selling that product is just got your money and they're like down the road, like, hey, I got your money, you know, and they've got no responsibility.

Host - Josh Anderson 35:27

So it might be an interesting business model for someone to specialize in uh repairing inexpensive electric vehicles or electric bikes and scooters and stuff.

Host - Dane Higgins 35:35

I have said that somebody doing that would be have tons of business, but would they make him money? Yeah. That's the question. Because if we can't, at the efficiency that we have, if we can't make money doing that and and and then we can't charge what we need to, and the customer is not going to be happy.

Host - Josh Anderson 35:53

So let's say you guys really understood the products. Because in the in this in this hype this hypothetical world, like the person knows, like in general, how all these things work and how the electronics work and how to take the tires off and change them quickly and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Is it that it's just takes longer because they weren't designed to be maintained? Or is it that uh there's like what percentage of it is we just don't understand this product versus it's just a hard job to do?

Host - Dane Higgins 36:18

Yeah. So imagine um, you know, mountain bikes when they first came out kind of had this pedigree of you're gonna be in the middle of nowhere and you may have to fix your bike. And so from very early on, they abandoned bolted wheels and put quick releases. Yep. So you could it would make it easier to change a flat. Yep, yep. Because you're getting flats, you know. Yep. And then they kind of made the tires fairly easy to change, not like you know, specialty tools like your fingers if you know how. Yeah, or if even the tire levers are compact and carryable, and they made tools to take along with it. Then they kind of standardized most of the tools so you could have kind of one multi-tool that worked for most of the bike. They didn't put a lot of random weird stuff or high-leverage things where you have to take a crescent wrench with you or anything, except for the single speeders. Um, but you know, so the philosophy has always been there to like be able to work on this stuff. These inexpensive bikes kind of throw that out the window. They just they're the assembly of them to ship them is the own, I think, their main main thought. Like I I need to take the wheels off just so that I can fit it in a smaller box and have a lower cost of shipping and get it somewhere, and then they can put it together. I have to make it so that they can put it together, but I don't wanna it's not made to to be very serviceable. Right, right. And then they evidently in in China or wherever these things are coming from, they've never heard of thorns at all. Like uh they have no clue that there should be protection. And granted, our perspective is is we have thorns everywhere uh here, and so getting a flat tire here is insanely easy. Yep. And not only that, but the thorns that if you stay on the road, the thorns will actually wash into the road during the corners, right?

Host - Josh Anderson 38:03

Especially in the corners when the cars kick them out and in the bike lanes.

Host - Dane Higgins 38:05

So like you can do your best to avoid them, but you're gonna get a flat. And so uh so then the the bike comes in with like the least cost products that don't really hold up, and then yeah, it's it's just and and they're they're just they're kind of perpetuating some of those, you know, cheap Chinese or whatever. Yeah. You know, I I can't say that's always Chinese, I don't I haven't really paid attention, but usually the idea is that it's just the cheapest possible product so that that person will buy it.

Host - Josh Anderson 38:35

Yeah.

Host - Dane Higgins 38:35

And then there's nothing else. And that person is never I don't I feel like there should be some responsibility to who's selling it. That you have to do something if your product sucks and there isn't. Yeah. And people are so willing to give up all of that to save money. And well, just no. Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 38:54

If you if you buy from an off-brand, you're probably not gonna get support.

Host - Dane Higgins 38:57

Yeah, it just I think it grinds my gears that we end up being the bad guys saying that we gotta charge 25 bucks to change a flat, and the person is like, Whoa, that's I I can't afford that. And we're like you know, like I'm like, man, uh don't know what to tell you. Lots of YouTube on changing flats, you should probably work on that. Like, you know, like it's just a lot of time and effort.

Host - Josh Anderson 39:21

So uh and I don't know, could we do a clinic or something for local folks? I mean, I guess bikis does that.

Host - Dane Higgins 39:26

Uh yeah, I think there's resources out there, but they're pretty slim. And then these particular products are not just a bike. I mean, they've got anything heavy-duty cables going to really heavy rear wheel motors. Um, it's the my big fear is that that wheel drops out when you're trying to loosen the bolts of someone gets hurt. No, no, uh, it just yanks some wires out. Oh, gotcha. Now, are we liable? And so, do I have to buy this guy a new motor because of this? And so, like, we are reluctant to take on that liability and that that risk. That risk, you know. And then uh, you know, and then these are commuters, you know, so in most cases they need this response to the city. This is how they get to how to work and to the grocery store and they have this perception you bring it in and you just fix it like discount tire or something. Yep. And it's difficult for bike shops to handle that workload, you know, and and and spread it out over time when the customer wants it right away. And then all of those things can be overcome if you have more money. If you come in and you're like, I need this today, and I'll give you an extra hundred bucks, I'm sure the guys will hustle or will figure out how to get it done. I'll call up a few people and be like, hey man, I gotta bump you back a little bit. Is that okay? You know, that that's one of the things that people when they come in the shop, they're they want their stuff now. Uh-huh. They they're like, it is it's only five minutes, you know, and you're like, No, it's five minutes after I do six more people in front of you. Yeah. And it's really not five minutes. And yeah, and it's not, and it's not fair for me to slow their repairs down because you're standing in front of me, and that's not fair. And so people have a hard time with that. We do a good job of explaining it and letting them know, and we don't really like rush fees, because that kind of promotes the idea that we can just bump whoever. But at the same time, if if Joe Schmoe is racing on Saturday, yeah, and uh one of my customers is like, Yeah, if it's done Saturday, that's great, and they're easy going, but they're not riding until Tuesday. I'll I'll move stuff around. But for the most part, you don't want to always count on that happening. Right on. So okay, that's enough on that.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:29

All right, no, we got we got some good grind gear gear grinding there. Yeah. Uh all right, so the next topic here is is the hype real? And

Are Riser Bars Actually Better

Host - Josh Anderson 41:37

uh this is a personal um uh thing. You know, I heard a lot of folks talking about riser bars, and I know these have gone in and out of vogue, you know, in my time. We were talking about that earlier today.

Host - Dane Higgins 41:52

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 41:52

Um, they've been in, they've been out, they've been in, but they've been out. But uh I recently experimented on one of my bikes with a 50 millimeter rise, and uh, and I loved it. Yeah, it felt so amazing. And then I rode it more and more, and I find myself just grabbing that one bike with the 50 millimeter rise, and I'm like, oh crap. So I literally put 50 millimeter rise bars on all my bikes. Um all my all my mountain bikes, my enduro bike, my my e-bike, and my downcountry bike all have 50 millimeter rise, and I love it. I don't I I can't imagine I go back, but I heard a hypothesis recently that the reason why there's a trend, and I'm gonna ask you if you think there is a trend, yeah, is because the uh bike companies are not making the stack height high enough so so to match the needs or desires of the of their customer base, and so the customers are adapting and and just sticking on 50 millimeter or or whatever, sticking on more high more more rise bars to to compensate. So a couple questions for you. Like, are you seeing, you know, are you selling a lot of rise bars? Are you seeing people you like move to it? And why do you think that is?

Host - Dane Higgins 43:06

Yeah, so it um I I don't feel like there's been this huge rush where we're but a lot of the people coming in to buy new bars are looking for the high rise, uh 30 to 50 in that range. And um the the I would say riser bars in general, you know, uh, and then whether or not they go to that height uh is tends to be whether or not they're watching trends. Okay. Um in the olden days. So so so I'm influenced by like Pink Bike telling me go higher.

Host - Josh Anderson 43:38

I think yeah. That's why I tried it. Yeah. I mean, honestly, and then I tried it and I was like, oh damn, this is great.

Host - Dane Higgins 43:43

Yeah. So like we we talked earlier about how back in the olden days when I was a uh downhilling, there was all my downhill bikes had, you know, 30 to 50 millimeter bars on them, and they were really high, and the front ends were super high, and there was a couch, you know. And then there was this kind of like research. Where the front end of bikes did get lower, or it seemed like they did. Uh-huh. I remember riding a Yeti, man, I don't remember what that bike was called. I want to say a three, five, seven or something. I can't. It was their downhill bike. And it had this weird shock on the back that would actually move on this ramp. And I remember being an outer bike, which was for um uh dirt demo. Yep. Um and riding this thing, and it had flat bars on it. So it had a triple clamp, downhill fork, and flat bars. And the seat, even with it low, was almost the same height as the bars. Like it was the weirdest feeling, and I hated it. Like all my old downhill bikes back then were super high in the front. I felt like I was on a chopper, like a you know, like a like a motorcycle chopper, like super high in the front. And that trend became popular because of there was a big dirt jump um surge. Okay, dirt jumpers were growing into downhillers, and they liked a low front end for more tricks, more jumps. They could pull the bike up closer to them, uh, more aerial stunts. Okay. Uh at the same time, right after that, a few years after that, 29ers started to get more and more popular. Yep. And that 29er fork and wheel was taller, and so they were dropping trying to drop the front end. And so the riser bars almost died for a little while. Right. And uh and then they started doing these flat bars that had sweep like a riser, and that became super popular. And so you would because riser bars uh used to be the comfort bar. You know, back in the day, you would put these big risers on and it would get you more upright, the old people bar.

Host - Josh Anderson 45:40

So maybe that's why I like it. Because I'm getting old, I just turned 15. Now I gotta have now I gotta be in a more comfortable position. I do find that I gotta I gotta be more more specific about weighting the front.

Host - Dane Higgins 45:50

When you climb.

Host - Josh Anderson 45:52

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I would say at all all times because I'm up higher, which just shoots your your weight more towards the back of the bike.

Host - Dane Higgins 45:59

So I when you sent this to me, I went and did some research. Did some research and deep dove. And so I took three different brands, um, pivot, trek, and specialized, and two types of bikes, the trail bikes, trail enduro.

Host - Josh Anderson 46:12

I just want to comment good on you for looking at specialized.

Host - Dane Higgins 46:15

Yeah, yeah. Trying. There's a lot of people arriving. A lot of misguided people. But uh I'm just kidding. I'm one of those people. Just kidding. Um, so uh so in the trail bikes over like a 10-year period, so like from 2016, um, which which I think I want to say risers were just starting to come back after that kind of low bar. Right. Uh um so 2016 up to 26. Uh what I noticed, because one of the things that made me want to do this, is you mentioned the bike companies aren't making the bikes higher.

Host - Josh Anderson 46:48

Just uh just a thought. Is that the reason I and I think I heard that on Pink Bike?

Host - Dane Higgins 46:51

Yeah, is that the reason why? Well, and and so uh what I noticed, what I wanted to see is are they getting higher or lower?

Host - Josh Anderson 46:58

Like what's going on with what's the trend with stack height?

Host - Dane Higgins 47:01

Yeah, uh long travel longer travel 29ers, are they so high now that they've lowered stuff? You know, or what? You know? Well, no, the stack height. So stack height, just for people to know, is the top of the headset cup down to uh horizontal line where the cranks are.

Host - Josh Anderson 47:17

Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 47:18

Okay, and so that is a number that you can relate to every bike. And it's one of those numbers that's easy to identify on every bike and compare a lot like reach.

Host - Josh Anderson 47:28

And so I take like take a horizontal line from the cranks from the cranks, from the middle of the cranks, draw it straight across the world. Yep, take a horizontal line from the top cap, straight across the world, and then measure not the top cap, the top of the headset.

Host - Dane Higgins 47:41

Top of the headset before before you put the spacers. Got it. Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 47:45

And then uh compare that those two what's the distance between those two lines? Yep, exactly. And that's it. You know they're in they're in different places, like I guess horizontally. Yeah, I got you.

Host - Dane Higgins 47:55

And and what it's not is the size of the head tube.

Host - Josh Anderson 47:58

Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 47:58

Correct. So it's not that.

Host - Josh Anderson 48:00

It's just the top of the head tube.

Host - Dane Higgins 48:01

Yeah, well, you know, a lot of people think stack is how tall your head tube is. That's not that. And in the olden days, they were much taller than they are now. They're much shorter. Yep. Um, so my research showed that um the change, so for pivot switch blades, they've uh over 10 year period, they've come up 28 millimeters. That's a significant. Which is pretty significant. Uh Trek fuels, 28 millimeters. So and then specialized stump jumper, 20 millimeters. Okay. So all these bikes have kind of come up. In the cross-country bikes, not as much. Not as much of uh so those are like enduro category bikes you talk about. Well, stump jumper is kind of trail, fuel X is trail. Yeah, those are all trail. So I think the switchblade's closer to uh Enduro than the other two, but uh you could I I can't remember if I included Evo on the Stump Jumper Evo, because that's more of a Enduro. More Enduro. So um so when you compare the Epic, uh the Mach 4 SL and the Trek Procaliber, they have only been between nine and fourteen millimeters higher. Okay. So they have been higher. But that's kind of normal because that bike is meant to be more of an uphill bike. Right. Uh whereas a trail bike's meant to be fairly neutral, and then downhill bikes are a downhill bike. Right. And so the front end of the bike will will change for instance that. So that's just basic geometry. But what I think the trend is, is people are wanting to be a little more careful uh and more confident on rockier terrain. Yep. They're getting these bikes are going faster, the suspension's more capable on on rougher terrain. And so I think being more upright helps your eyes. Um, you're less likely to flip over the bars, and so I think that's a big trend. So I don't know uh what I've been looking at, and I haven't done enough research on, is these reverse stems that uh I saw there's a female that's riding in the down downhill right now. Yeah, there's a couple out there, and uh there's a that would be more of a reach thing, though, right? Well, it it what so I I I saw an interview with the the designer who came up with them. Yeah, and he's got a couple of different versions.

Host - Josh Anderson 50:07

You should probably explain what it is for us.

Host - Dane Higgins 50:09

Yeah, so I you may have seen this uh if you're watching social media. It's a stem that kind of comes straight up from the stuff from the stem cap or even backwards, right? And they're quite high. Uh the original ones, I remember watching uh Burn Peak and just kind of laughing. This is before I knew who that guy was. Seth Alva.

Host - Josh Anderson 50:27

And before I was really That's the one that's like like six inches or eight inches tall or something.

Host - Dane Higgins 50:31

And it was goofy, and and he's like, it's not that bad. And I'm like, it's stupid, you know, like this is a stupid thing. It it'll never work. And I I said the things that everybody says, you know. And um, but listening to the designer and finding out what he's doing and why he's doing it, it's not horrible. It's not a horrible idea.

Host - Josh Anderson 50:49

I almost feel like we should get a hold of one. I mean, they've it's been it's been played out, so I don't think it's gonna be good content.

Host - Dane Higgins 50:54

He's got a new version. I think that's why it's getting recycled and coming up again. And so, and then he's got these pro writers that are riding them. So there's a little bit of momentum behind it, yeah. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but the idea is he's moving this, the, the, I don't know what you call it, the pivot point of your bars more onto where the contact patch is. And yes, exactly. And it's like, wait a minute, that's a different concept. So instead of having the stem offset and kind of getting over your, you know, over your axle, which is kind of what we all used to think you were supposed to do. Yeah, you know, um, he's kind of changing how the front end rail.

Host - Josh Anderson 51:34

Oh, for hell's sake, now I gotta try one. Yeah, and so we're getting one.

Host - Dane Higgins 51:37

I know, I know. So so it's I don't know if it's a kooky thing or what. Most people that are riding them do agree that when you go to climb, it's not the best.

Host - Josh Anderson 51:47

Are they still ridiculously expensive?

Host - Dane Higgins 51:48

Yes, because they're most of them are one-off. I think you contact him and tell them what what you're doing. So I I didn't get into like the 500 bucks or something. Yeah, I didn't know. They're not cheap. Yeah, I didn't get into the purchasing of one, but I know that his premise was that it's a little bit more custom than just buying a you know a birth tech stem or uh, you know, a one-up stem or whatever. Um, so so it's it's a little bit more nuanced than that. So anyway, his idea is again being more upright, but it also the control at which you're turning. So uh these riser bars may be tapping a little into that, you know. Interesting. So because you know, when they're on a bike, believe it or not, as you rise the bar, you're getting closer and closer to that center of the top cap because it's bringing you back farther. So it could be causing that. I don't know. It could be a comfort thing. Um, I don't think the bikes are too low.

Host - Josh Anderson 52:42

Uh well, I have been improving in my ability to tackle technical terra, which today you rode with me in some really technical shit, and I did I did pretty good, man. Yeah. Um foot down a couple times, but made it up everything. Yeah. Uh and I when I I called Lacey on the way home from the ride and I was like, this is what we rode. She's like, Jesus Christ, you rode that. I was like, Yeah. Dane just didn't even ask. He's just like, here we go. I was like, all right, I guess we're doing this. Um so but I don't know how much of I mean, how much if it's me getting better, or maybe those bars have helped me. Uh I definitely feel more comfortable, and I don't I don't ever feel like I'm gonna go over the bars.

Host - Dane Higgins 53:20

I think I think that's true. I think when you just get a little bit back, so my experience with the new bike and kind of playing with mullet versus 29, um, trying to figure out why the bike feels so different with two different wheels on it and so much better for me with uh with the 29.

Host - Josh Anderson 53:37

You're back to the pivot amped now.

Host - Dane Higgins 53:38

Yeah, yeah. And um, and and just kind of looking at the bike's geometry and kind of going, okay, that seat was really, really far over the back wheel. So I had all my weight on the back wheel. And for the way that we ride around here, we have to climb just as much as we descend. It's pay-to-play. You know, if you want to go downhill, you gotta go equal parts uphill. Yep. And so we're not really and and our uphills are on trail, not on dirt roads. So that's something that I get jealous about a lot of the PW people. They got a forest road, they climb up, and then they got these sweet downhills that they get to go down. So the forest road up is not really a super challenge. And if their geometry is kind of goofy, it's not really analyzing them.

Host - Josh Anderson 54:20

You rode beam peaks recently.

Host - Dane Higgins 54:21

That's what that's like, is right?

Host - Josh Anderson 54:22

And that's that's also our concept for the Colossal Cave bike park.

Host - Dane Higgins 54:25

Yeah, so that's it's not a bad thing. It's just that has a different demand than when you're doing a technical climb to get up and then a technical descent. Yep. And so uh getting your mass and centered over the bike is a little touchy. So I can tell you that when short stems and wide bars came out, that there was a big rush of people coming in for that, way more than this higher rise. Right, right. And the amount of people that came in getting 40 and 50 millimeter stems when they used to have 90, you know, on their bikes, and going with 800 bars versus, you know, the six hundred and twenties or whatever they were. And that made a huge difference in stability.

Host - Josh Anderson 55:05

Open it up your chest so you can breathe.

Host - Dane Higgins 55:06

Like I can't I could never go back to the skinny bars, man. But I will tell you, we had a bunch of people that had adverse reactions when they did that because they put them on old geometry. Oh so you know, when uh when somebody's telling you about a new product and it rides great and it was designed that way, and then you try and apply it to something that has different, you know, design features. Who knows? Like a short top tube, and now you've made it even shorter, right? It kind of really can start to mess with it. Can make it worse. Yeah. So now here's the one thing I'll say about those high bars. It's not a big cost. It's not a lot of money.

Host - Josh Anderson 55:40

No, I mean I bought the inexpensive PW bars. I think they were like 30 or 40 bucks. Wow, that's cheap. Maybe they're 50 bucks, but they weren't expensive.

Host - Dane Higgins 55:48

Yeah, I would say normally 80.

Host - Josh Anderson 55:51

Okay, they could be they could have been 80, I could. Okay. As a matter of fact, while we're talking, I'll just I'll just Okay, I'll just double check.

Host - Dane Higgins 55:56

I would say alloy buyers are kind of centered around 80 bucks to 100. Uh, and then sometimes with their high rise, they have to put more thoughts so they don't bend. So they may be a tad more for a high rise versus a uh I'm looking them up right now.

Host - Josh Anderson 56:10

Okay. Uh keep talking, so well and fill up some time while I'm looking this up.

Host - Dane Higgins 56:14

And so then uh so alloy in general's around 80-ish uh is pretty common, maybe a hundred. And then we've we've seen a lot of people coming and getting 50 mil, but also 30 mil.

Host - Josh Anderson 56:27

So the bars that I have are the range handlebar Gen 4. Okay, and they are $69. Okay. All right. So that's that's right. Yeah, I was I had too cheap. But um an expensive, inexpensive way to try it out. And I would imagine I could turn around and pull those off and sell them for 40 bucks if I hated it.

Host - Dane Higgins 56:43

Well, I was gonna say reversible. So it's not like you're doing something that's yeah, you're not cutting something that's gonna change your bike forever. Yep, yeah. So and so it's it's worth a try. I would say being more upright definitely gives you more. You're gonna get a little more weight over the back, so you have to watch out for your front-end washing in corners and wanting to lift up a little bit more on clients.

Host - Josh Anderson 57:04

Aaron Powell, so you are seeing people more interested in the riser bars, basically.

Host - Dane Higgins 57:08

Yeah, I think so. I think I think there's a difference between a lot of you know, if it's an actual trend and we're starting to see the bikes change because of it, or if it's just a few people thought think it's cool and there's a lag in the industry. It doesn't automatically change.

Host - Josh Anderson 57:24

Aaron Powell Well, from one moderately talented 50-year-old rider, I can advise our listeners if you haven't tried a high-rise bar, so check it out, try it.

Host - Dane Higgins 57:33

So qualify it. What do you think if you were going to recommend it to somebody, what is it that that you think it would do for them? What's two things that they would get out of that that made you like it? More comfortable. Okay, more upright.

Host - Josh Anderson 57:46

Less neck pain, um, because I don't have to have my head at such a uh like a cracked angle when I'm pedaling.

Host - Dane Higgins 57:54

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 57:55

Um less back pain.

Host - Dane Higgins 57:56

Okay.

Host - Josh Anderson 57:57

You know, I'm not young. Yeah. Um, but then I think it helps me get over more chunky stuff with more confidence. And you know, previously before I put these on, you know, ever once or twice a month you get into a place where you feel like, oh shit, I'm going over the bars.

Host - Dane Higgins 58:14

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 58:14

I haven't had that feeling one time since I put these bars on.

Host - Dane Higgins 58:18

Yeah, I would say that you nailed it. Like all the things if somebody came in and were asking about those things, that that's my experience. Right.

Host - Josh Anderson 58:25

Feels better. And plus, it's cool just to drop my seat and chop her out. You know what I'm saying? Just like to rest. Yeah. Which I do a lot.

Host - Dane Higgins 58:33

Yeah. I think um if somebody came in on a cross-country bike looking to get more KOMs, probably wouldn't recommend that.

Host - Josh Anderson 58:41

But I I I have it on my well, I don't have a cross-country bike, but I have a downcountry bike.

Host - Dane Higgins 58:45

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 58:45

I guess it's a cross-country bike. It's an epic Evo that we've extended.

Host - Dane Higgins 58:48

But uh I have it on that too. Yeah, I don't know if I would uh like I like my Mach 4SL. I don't know if I'd put them on that. You should try it. Uh just try it. Just try it. Just try it.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:00

It's it's like just try it.

Host - Dane Higgins 59:02

I could put mirrors on it too. Oh, here we go. Here we go. Jesus. All right, all right. Uh Late. Wait, wait, I need like a phone mount and a computer mount. Oh, here we go. Here we go.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:17

Mirrors, foam mount, computer mount, and a little and a little horn that goes. Oh yeah, yeah, the ooga horn. All right, what's your hype? What's your hype topic? Um or did you have one?

Host - Dane Higgins 59:29

I don't have one. Mine, I think, was just talking about yours.

Host - Josh Anderson 59:33

Okay, cool. And we spent plenty of time on that. Yeah. I will say we had the um Manitou Mezzer Gen 2, but we decided that um we want to spend a little bit more time researching that. Uh and so we will talk about the new Manitou Mezzer Gen 2 in a future episode. Uh so we're on to bang for the buck. You want to start or you want me to start?

Host - Dane Higgins 59:51

I want you to start because you've done it the whole time, so we'll keep it consistent.

Budget Forks That Don’t Suck

Host - Josh Anderson 59:54

Okay. So you know what I noticed today uh on our ride? What? Just how planted my bike felt. Your bike's heavy. No, honestly, um, I am so I I talk about it so much, but I'm like so in love with my suspension setup with the coil. With the with the coil in the back on my both my big bikes have a coil in the back and a Zeb uh ultimate on the front. And now I've got the Z the Pike Ultimate on my downcountry bike. And I just it's just so off. And it's not even the current generation of either those forks, it's the previous generation. It's not the newest version, not the newest version, not with the with the butter wagons, but it does have the butter cups. Yeah. But man, does it feel amazing? Anyways, um, my bang for the buck is a fork thing. And uh it's not something that I've used, so really I'm just kind of asking you what you think about this as the resident guru, suspension guru. Okay. So typically, if someone came to me and they were on a significant budget and they're like, hey, I want to upgrade my fork. I've got a shitty 35 on it or something. I would say, go get a Manitou. I'm sorry, go get a Marzoki. Okay. I'd say get a Marzoki. It's got the grip damper, it's a great damper in it, and you it doesn't have a lot of adjustability, but it'll be amazing for the price, like budget fork. That's where I would have gone. I've started to hear folks talk about RockShock's silo and domain forks in the same uh category. They're like 550 bucks, 699.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:01:34

Depends.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:01:34

Okay, yeah. Why when I I I'll double check that too, but when I looked them up, I thought they were 550 bucks um from SRAM's website. But um, I think there's different different versions of them.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:01:43

And there's some that are OE only. Correct. So those are tricky.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:01:47

So and and then I went out and read a bunch of reviews, and it sounds like people kind of think of the silo and the domain, and the silo is like a lower travel, and the domain's like a bigger travel.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:01:59

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:02:00

Like the same way that I think of Marzoki. So, like, do you have experience with them? I I noticed I actually walked around your shop earlier, yeah. You've got two bikes on the right-hand side that are more affordable priced bikes that have one's got a domain, one's got a silo. Yep. Like, what's your thoughts on those?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:02:16

So, yeah, they're good forks. So they're um the domain uses uh a simple cartridge IF springback IFP damper. I can't remember what they call it. Uh isolator. Um, so and that is on the on the one that you can buy aftermarket, you can get some of these that where they don't have any compression adjustments. It was tripped me out the first time I saw one because I'm so used to seeing forks where you've got like your your lockout switch on the top and your rebound on the bottom. And I had a Zeb show up and a domain show up where they had no compression. It was just a top cap. There's like nothing. It was the weirdest thing. Whoa. Yeah, and so it was just adjustable rebound. And though those are usually OE only. Um, and then the damping system is pretty simple, but works good. Uh I would say it's on par with a lot of the same similar price. So, and then I think RockShock is doing a good job on their bushings and seals. Yeah. Uh so they're they're doing a good job of keeping them smooth at the lower price points. Um, it's a fair comparison against the Marzoki stuff. Okay. Um really, really similar. Just Marzoki is basically the lower price point at with Fox technology. And um, and then the same thing for these rock shocks. Uh I had the uh silo on one of my bikes, and it's a good fork, it works well. Both forks I feel like perform better than the 35, and I haven't gotten a lot of time inside them because they're fairly new.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:03:58

So um, so a couple things. I just verified the price from Shram's website. Okay. For the gold RC, which is the top, I think the top version of both these. Okay. It's $5.99 for the silo. Okay. It's $6.39 for the domain. Okay. So I was a little bit off. Yeah. Um similar to the Marzoki you said. Haven't spent any time inside of them. Yeah. Um Yeah, man. I I just was stoked to see that there was uh I think they're the very viable forks. Okay.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:04:28

Um You would you wouldn't you wouldn't um like steer people away from them. So I you know, if you were buying a bike and your budget uh limits you to this this fork. This category. I wouldn't tell you you have to immediately get rid of it. Okay. I would say ride it, you know, have a good time with it, and then if you find like you're wanting more performance down the road, then maybe you're worth it. Whereas like uh, you know, uh for there was a little trend for a little while. I think these forks are kind of trying to address the issue where there was a trend where bike companies were putting out pretty good frames and pretty good parts with shitty forks. With a shitty fork.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:05:07

And that's what I read is that f that RockShock is going away from the 35.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:05:11

Yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:05:11

And that this is going to be their budget offering. Have you heard that?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:05:15

I haven't yet. Okay. Um I I I haven't really been digging into that category. Because we've established that the 35 is just garbage. Well, I have a lot to sell, so we can't say that.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:05:26

Um But well, I mean, honestly, though, what what I mean?

Host - Dane Higgins 1:05:29

What what the 35 um I you know I would say is a good attempt at a low price uh fork, and it beats some of the other brands that are even lower. Okay. And what I was seeing is bike brands were making twelve to fifteen hundred dollar bikes, hardtails, with this low end company, you know, like a Sun Tour with like steel stanchions or even uh steel springs. That just did not perform like a thirty five. It did not even perform like a thirty-five, right, and really wasn't worthy. Uh that bike was so Much nicer than that fork would let it be. And so that for that that would be the bike that somebody would come in and I would say, Hey, as soon as you can, let's get you a different fork. And then I would sell them one of my takeoff 35s, or we would go to like one of these forks or a Marzoki. And it would really transform that bike into what it could be. It wasn't hold it wasn't holding it back. Whereas the other forks were holding that bike back.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:06:23

So if you have one of those off brands, and we talked about them in our suspension with Spinner and some of the Sun Tours.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:06:30

Yeah, Suntour can make really high end, but they're known for their low end. For the low end. And usually when you see them, they're good. They're picked for the price, not for the performance. Right.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:06:40

But you you would you would recommend Marzoki or a silo or a domain to someone as a as a as like a moderate upgrade.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:06:49

I don't know if I would sell them that aftermarket. So that's the tricky part. Okay. If you came in and it was $639 for this one and $7.99 for a performance. Performance Series Fox or or something like that. Right. That gets a little that gets a little harder. Okay. Because there is some some upgrades that you get. So um we have a a customer that that that got a that had a domain and we put a 38, and it was obvious the fork was better.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:07:19

You know, like he it was so and that's not what they're trying to compete with, but yes.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:07:24

Well, that's what a domain competes with. And so the f the Fox 38 is a higher price, but wouldn't the domain compete with the big Marzoki bomber more than the 38? Well, it the category is the 38. So that that category, indufork. Okay. So is there a Marzoki enduro fork? Yeah, like the Z1.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:07:43

Okay. So wouldn't the Z1 compete with the domain? Yeah. Okay. And so they're all in the And then the 38's like a step above both those.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:07:49

Yeah. Okay. The real close. You know, they're very similar. All three are really similar and they have different attributes that make them more appealing. The domain tends to the biggest attribute to that is the price. The uh Marzoki is probably the price for performance, and then the Fox is performance. Gotcha. And so like, you know, depending on what's important to you, you know. Uh if you want a lot of performance, but you want it as cheap as possible, you're gonna you're that domain's gonna be great. Uh if you want if performance and and a little extra money is not a big deal because you really want that performance, you're gonna go to 38. And then if you're in between or zeb or zeb, yeah. I I will tell you the the Zeb Ultimate is amazing. But the other Zeb's not great. Once you go down, it gets a little harder.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:08:39

I will tell you, I didn't know because I started with a Zeb that wasn't a Zeb Select, and you swapped out all the guts inside and it lit that thing up. Yeah, and I So I I can I can resonate with what you're saying.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:08:50

I would say that uh I would say RockShock has an opportunity uh to make their lower end stuff way better if they just get those buttercups in those, in those select pluses and and select forks. I think that buttercup technology needs to trickle down more. Yeah. And I I think it makes such a difference to the everyday rider that uh having a 3.1 damper or 3.2 or whatever damper with high speed and low speed is less important than the buttercup. Yeah. And and I think the buttercup being put in like a select plus fork would be fantastic. Would be just they would be a game changer. You know, that that fork would outsell all of the foxes in that same category.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:09:33

Yeah. So there you go, Rock Shock. And I just dawned on me that I'm turning into a Rock Shock zealot the same way I'm a Shimano Zealot, which is funny.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:09:40

Yeah, yeah. I I've been uh, you know, I'm I'm such a DVO guy, but I've been really I I'm decided that I need to try some different stuff. I rode um RockShock for a while, and I'm the new bike that I'm building is gonna have it on there. It's gonna have some special stuff. Is that the Zeb Ultimate over there? Yeah, Zeb Ultimate flight attendant. Yeah. So um so uh I'll be on that stuff. I kind of wanna I really want to try out the new 38. I had it on the amped, yeah, and I it it wasn't enough of a difference, but I want to kind of give it a more of a chance. Yeah. And then um I'm kind of intrigued by that new Mar MRP and the new Mezzer. Yeah. So yeah.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:10:22

So we got some we got some stuff to go.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:10:24

Yeah. Uh so there's a lot of good stuff out there. I just uh trying to figure out which one really has uh the the best for me, and then which one is the hype and which one's you know, whether it's real or not, or if it's just a subtle change that nobody's gonna notice, but they make you feel like you have to buy it. Right. Uh that those are big things that I want to try and figure out.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:10:46

Right on, man. Well, do you have a bang for the buck you want to talk about? Um Are you are we good? We we've got uh an hour and ten minutes here, I do.

Host - Dane Higgins 1:10:54

Yeah, I don't have anything that's popped up right recently. Okay, yeah. Um I'll try and think of something good for next one because uh that's one of my favorite categories. And uh, you know, I would say we you know, when people come in here, I I love getting bang for the buck stuff for them. Yep. Because I we love selling high-end and we sell a lot of high-end. But man, if I can get you high-end and it doesn't hit your pocketbook like this, it's hard, it's nice.

Final Thoughts And Wrap

Host - Dane Higgins 1:11:20

That's great.

Host - Josh Anderson 1:11:20

So all right, brother. Any any final thoughts for our listeners here? Uh I think that's it. Right on, man. Appreciate you.