S5E11 Part 1: How to Play Your Way to Healing with TJ Matton + Bailey Jacobs

This week on the podcast, we speak to TJ Matton and Bailey Jacobs from the Play Revolution. 

TJ is a social worker, psychotherapist, coach, and constructive misbehavior enthusiast. As founder of The Playful Revolution help people understand the neuroscience of play, integrate play into their healing, and reconnect with the power and potential of play. 

Bailey’s play is planning. Planning parties, planning meals, and planning adventures big and small with her friends and family. As the Chief Orchestrating Officer (COO) of The Playful Revolution, Bailey uses her directorial play prowess to oversee the company’s strategy, operations, and marketing. 

Fundamental to their work is play as a human right, play is a primal need that exists in all mammals and needs to be nourished and nurtured throughout a person’s lifetime.  

In this pod chat, we speak about:

• How our world and the invisible systems that rule all of them care about how much we produce, how much we consume and that we produce more producers and consumers - and definitely NOT about our joy!
• the different ages and stages that girls and boys lose their ability to play, and why 
• How play is the experience of cultivating joy in the everyday, and NOT In adding something else to the to-do list. 
• the different types of play and a simple 30 second play prompt that we do live in the interview

Find TJ, Bailey and the Playful Revolution - including their brandy new podcast - here www.theplayfulrevolution.com

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Transcript

TJ Matton: [00:00:00] But also one of my core beliefs in play is that we're not, and like, in healing, is that we're not meant, we can't heal our trauma alone, and we can't heal our play wounds alone.

Kylie Patchett: Welcome to the wild and finally fucking free podcast show. This is a space where truth talking gets real behind the scenes. Grit of the future humans is laid bare, and we are celebrating and sharing the real world stories of change agents, neuro sparkly people, the witchy wild women, the deep feelers, the unapologetic senses, the status quo challenges, and the huge hearted healers and helpers.

And guiding you through this wild ride of entrepreneurship and full heart led contribution to the world is me, your host, Kylie Patchett, aka KP. I am a proudly NeuroSparkly, natural born status quo challenger, and I thrive on helping disruptors, rebels and revolutionaries find their voices, amplify their message into the world, and harness their raw potential.

Alchemise it into unleashing your full potency. Not only will I be sharing the behind the scenes of some of the most amazing, most status quo challenging thought leaders, I'll also be lifting the veil behind my own business. In 2024, I 18x'd my monthly income. Still blows my mind to say that. And this year I am leaning into how joyful and fun it would be to shift from six figures to seven figures in a quantum shifting year, all through leading from my full unapologetic voice, my unleashed potency, and with my big wildly lit up heart leading the way.

Every single step of the way. So together with my guests, I am going to be sharing the mess and the magic. Spilling the tea on the identity shifts behind stepping into thought leadership. Breaking the ties that bind us.[00:02:00] 

Unlearning old patterns and reweaving brand new ways of living, loving, learning, and leading. We're here to break boundaries, reimagine what's possible, all while collapsing timelines and leading with joy, love, and our fiercest wild woman selves. This is not just a podcast. It is a rebellion. It is a revolution.

It is an invitation to join the Mad Hatter's collective movement. And by Mad Hatters I mean all the colourful, creative, gorgeous, world changing, out of the box humans out there. If you've ever longed to be wild and finally fucking free, this is your sign to lean in. Let's get started.

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited this morning. Number one, I'm recording in my new office. Very exciting. But number two, I'm talking to my beautiful friends, TJ Merton and Bailey Jacobs from the Play Revolution. How are you? 

TJ Matton: We're so happy to be here with you. 

Kylie Patchett: This is totally worth being up at five o'clock in the morning.

That feels so sweet. I'm actually seeing like the, we get light very early in the morning. So in front of me is daybreaking. So I feel like this is like perfect for our conversation. Yeah. New beginnings. So would you like to introduce yourselves for the people that don't already know about you and your spectacular work in the world, share a little bit about who you are, what you do.

And then I've got so many questions for you. This will probably need to be a three part episode. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. Um, I'll start. Um, so my name is TJ Matan. Um, I am on the eastern side of the U. S. in Maryland. Um, and I have been a trauma therapist studying kind of relational trauma and complex trauma for close to 15 years.

And I fell in [00:04:00] love with the neuroscience of play, um, about a decade ago. And I've been practicing it in my clinical practice for a long time. And a couple of years ago, I was like, I want this to be out there in the world. It needs to be unleashed. And so I started the Playful Revolution, and one of the first things I did was like ask the universe for a left hand woman.

Um, because as a neurodivergent, I can't stick to to do lists. I can't, I cannot get shit done without, like, Somebody who is, whose strengths are so different than mine. But also one of my core beliefs in play is that we're not, and like, in healing, is that we're not meant, we can't heal our trauma alone, and we can't heal our play wounds alone.

So I did not, by, and I did not want to be a solo entrepreneur. So I prayed to the universe, in my own hippie ways, and Bailey! We got a Bailey! And I got a Bailey! And I'm 

Bailey Jacobs: Bailey! I love it. I'm Bailey, I'm the co founder of The Playful Revolution with TJ, and, uh, I'm also on the East Coast of the United States in Raleigh, North Carolina, um, and yeah, I, in many ways, I consider myself TJ's first follower, that first person who kind of, like, jumped right in and drank the Kool Aid, if you will, um, and just.

Jumped wholeheartedly into play, right? I've been practicing while TJ has been doing play work with clients for close to a decade now. I've been In our kind of intentional mindful play framework for almost two years and just the transformations I felt in my own life, my own relationships, it, you know, your joy is a revolution and your experience of joy matters.

Right. And just the transformation that's taken place in our own, both of our relationships as business partners, but then just being able to share, you know, words are so much of where my joy comes from. I have a A background in corporate comms doing writing words for other [00:06:00] people and so being able to kind of reclaim my love of story my love of writing in play but also in this work has just been so just wonderful to experience and I'm so excited to be here with you Kylie and sharing this.

Kylie Patchett: Oh, I mean, really, we should just out the fact that there is a hashtag that says everyone needs a Bailey because we met through an amazing mastermind and like so often in the chat, everyone needs a Bailey because it's so beautiful to see two women come together with this. It's like dedication to a revolution and you know, that is a very, that's very clearly and consciously chosen as a revolution.

This is a revolution that you're building and to see you guys co create and just bring your beautiful strengths to the table and allow each other to. Do the thing that they most love to do has been such a joy to watch. So thank you for being such a beautiful example of partnership. Um, yeah, and I actually wanted to, as you were talking Bailey, I thought about, um, one of the, I mean, I just love your.

Entire email series. And especially over the holidays when you were doing this, like, you know, mom needs to be, you know, mom's joy needs to be centered. It doesn't need to be mom creating joy for everybody else, which is how we often sort of run things. But one of the things you talked about was your first like play date together, but with your partners and how that, do you want to just share that story?

Cause I think that's such a beautiful. example of how play can be utilized to me. It's such a beautiful thing. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. Um, Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that's fun about Bailey's and my relationship is like we weren't actually friends before we were colleagues here. Um, we know one another through my sister.

Um, and my sister loved Bailey and I loved Bailey through my sister. Um, and Bailey loved me through my sister, but we didn't really know [00:08:00] each other. Um, so when we started this work, you know, we have had to build a collegial relationship, a friend relationship. We've had to undo systems of like productivity and like hype.

Like we've had to undo so many of the frames that I think Bailey kind of came from specifically in the corporate comms world. And then for me kind of coming from like, um, from a health and wellness world of the therapy is like undoing individualism and undoing this concept of fixing and instead like kind of amplifying gifts.

And so we've had to like really learn and unlearn a lot together, right? There's a lot of iterations in our partnership, but this included in like, you know, um, even when I went into my, like my, I was asking financial advice and I was like, I want to hand over half my business to this person. And my, like my, Money, people were like, uh uh, just hire her.

I was like, uh uh. I need her to have half. I want, like, because it just gives a totally different energy. 

Kylie Patchett: But along 

TJ Matton: the way, like, our husbands have kind of, we're both really, you know, we shouldn't call ourselves lucky, but in the modern marital dynamics, we are very lucky to have very, two very feminist husbands, like, who love their wives, love to see them, like, In their own gifts in abundance and like are so like just both of our partners are so wonderful and we're so like we both and are 

Bailey Jacobs: actively embodying the work in their own way.

On top of being supportive of us are just in on this. There are first 

TJ Matton: followers. Yes. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: So they hadn't met each other right so like we all went out and 

Bailey Jacobs: many, we hadn't met each other's partners either. Right. That's a big risk. 

TJ Matton: Yeah, 

Bailey Jacobs: definitely. 

TJ Matton: So we all went out to dinner, you know, we all went, we, Bailey and I went to this business, uh, retreat in Vegas.

Uh, [00:10:00] and, um, we, uh, and like, it was just like, it almost, it felt like a first date. It felt like a first date. That's what it felt like. It really was. I mean, like, you know, and, um. So we all like, you 

Bailey Jacobs: know, what happens if we don't like each other, right? What happens if I find her husband so annoying, right? Like, so much of our 

TJ Matton: business, you know, like, which version was he 

Bailey Jacobs: gonna be?

Our business relationship is so intimate. We spend so much time together, TG and I. We've built this remarkable trust. But It is this blending of the families, right? Of like, okay, here's the next level of like, will we like each other's husbands? Cause sometimes husbands suck, right? And honestly, it 

TJ Matton: makes or breaks, it makes, it makes or breaks female relationships, whether Yeah.

And that. 

Bailey Jacobs: So we, we sat down to this beautiful fancy dinner and I just threw out to Brandon and I, my husband and I love to play this game, um, that's named after my college roommate. It's called the Dubik rule where you do not look at the menu until you have a cocktail in your hand that named after her father.

And that's his rule when he wants to kind of relax into a meal. He's not going to be rushed. Right. So he wants his cocktail in hand and it's, I mean, I love the rule, right? But it forces you to slow down. Yeah, but you know as tj kind of brought through in the story that she told like that's also super anxiety inducing to like remove The comfort of being able to, of like not, because oftentimes you can, if you're uncomfortable, you can look at the menu and not make eye contact.

Right. Or not make awkward conversation. So I kind of thrust us into a new paradigm. When you talk about the 

TJ Matton: next thing, like what are we going to order? Right? Like you're already in the next thing. Exactly. And so this rule. Right? Like, yeah, keep going. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, and so we, you know, as we're all picking our cocktails, uh, we come across a warm consomme cocktail that was made with warm beef.

Like, warm beef broth. [00:12:00] Beef consomme. Yeah, in Sherry. It was delicious. 

TJ Matton: I loved it. And 

Bailey Jacobs: so but in this act of all of us kind of being repulsed but intrigued, and then we decided to get a cocktail for the table. And in the by in this act of engaging in our curiosity engaging in something new. We all of a sudden weren't awkward anymore, right?

We all of a sudden weren't relying on like the societal crutches that often hold us back in many ways, right? We weren't looking at our phones. We weren't talking about the weather. We were all engaged in a collective experience around something as small as a drink, right? But it was new and novel and intriguing and a little weird, but like amazing, right?

Yeah. And it just broke. It broke us all open and like it is this like powerful example of like what play does in active relationship right how it can oh 

TJ Matton: totally 

Bailey Jacobs: how it connects while also breaking down walls like it just because it brings forth your authentic self right it brings Forth. You, there's like a rawness and vulnerability in play that you have to be present and makes it so that you can actually connect with people.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And at the end of the day, we adored each other's husbands. . Yay, . Yay. You a good husbands. We had wonderful. 

TJ Matton: Yes. 

Bailey Jacobs: They 

TJ Matton: all got 

Bailey Jacobs: a 

TJ Matton: pass. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yes. We all had a wonderful time. Uh, like a luxurious three hour meal. It was spectacular. Yeah. Um, yeah, it was, it was definitely like peak 

TJ Matton: meal moments. Mm-hmm

But yeah, like, so if we talk about like, even like, you know, and again. I, like, I want to dive into, like, a piece of our play research here. Yeah, yeah, go for it, go for it, go for it. And, like, kind of help amplify a couple things from this story. Yeah. So, one is that we often think about play as this external thing, right?

This experience of hobbies, um, this thing you go out and do. And, actually, it is an internal experience, right? And it's this place in the body where, like, um, Where, like, kind of, there's enough safety, right, but the risks are low [00:14:00] enough for you to do, like, do something new, right? So, like, you can't play if you're not safe, right, and you can't play if the risks are too high, right?

Yes. And, um, so part of, like, kind of going into the dinner is that the risks felt really high, right? Like, it was a very high risk scenario for, for me. And so, in some ways, like, play begin, like, play inherently brings play, like, brings power, changes power dynamics. Um, because you can't play if, like, you know, again, like, if I am an, if I, like, if I am an adult doing, uh, playing soccer, right, like, I, or football, like, I can't play against a three year old.

Right? Like, that's not a good play dynamic, right? So, play, like, play requires a power balance. Yes. And Where, like, safety and risk are, like, kind of, like, like, running up against each other. 

Kylie Patchett: Oh, 

TJ Matton: this is discombobulating my brain. I love this. I love this. And so one of the things is, like, you know, a couple of the external things that we did for play in that, that shifted and created an internal play experience, is, like, one of the first things that we did was, like, we kind of set the frame of the game, right?

Like, we're going to rumble. We're going to get into this together. Like, we knew there was a frame and the goal of the play Yeah. was a sense of created, like, Connect like connection like that was the goal of the game right again part of play is take part of Re cultivating play is taking it out of this like done checkbox and into like a cultivated like kind of more nonlinear Place.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like, you know, nobody Nobody would have known if we met that goal from an external standpoint except checking in on each one of our bodies, right? Like only we knew if we met our play goals, right? Yeah, 

Kylie Patchett: yeah, yeah. 

TJ Matton: And then we created external things like, [00:16:00] um, We're gonna, we're gonna have this game where you can't open the menu until, right?

So that external rule, because a rule, an external rule, can make or break new structures of play. Yes. It can, right? So this external rule, we're not, we're not opening the menu, broke a pattern, right? Yes. Broke a, like broke a pattern that created space for new risks to be taken, right? Okay. Yes. And so therefore that's like, when we set that rule, it, it created a space.

To play a new game. Yeah, right to play the game of connection. 

Kylie Patchett: And it forces you. Sorry, if I'm just following like I'm imagining myself in this scenario, like even the fact that I can't open the menu makes me. Awkwardly, but definitely more present because I'm like, Oh, I actually have to be here. I have to, I have to feel how I'm feeling and interact and really notice how everybody else is in this scenario as well.

So 

TJ Matton: everybody's awkward. Exactly. Like it's not personal, right? Like and so then all of a sudden from this external rule, everybody's on the same page Yes. Of playing for togetherness, right? Yeah. Yep, yep, yep. Yeah. The second external rule or external play we did was trying this new drink, right? Yes. 'cause play is a balance of novelty and novelty.

Like novelty and ritual, right? 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: And when you look at the fact that we had new people, like we had this very high, for me, high intensity. Yep. New people, new dynamic. Like, this kind of novelty was really high risk. 

Kylie Patchett: So 

TJ Matton: then, we actually collectively took low risks together through trying this drink.

Diffused the intensity of the risk, right? Like, oh, we can all do new things together, right? Yes, yeah. So again, play is this place of like, what do we bring [00:18:00] in externally that cultivates new internal and ex like, takes us back into the flow of creative living. 

Kylie Patchett: I love that you're like as you're like you're using your hands to explain this just for anyone that's not watching the video that's like this like figure of eight sort of thing it's like folding in the external to to to shift the internal.

As you're talking, I mean there's so many things I want to pull out I think, for starters, you're talking about like recultivating play and I'm like. How have we lost play in the first place like that? I feel like that is like this root question that I want to come to. But also we like before we started recording, I said to you guys, like, how are you going?

Like. America is a little bit wild at the moment, right? It's like the wild west or not even, um, less law than the wild west. But, and I said, you know, how you guys, and Bailey's answer was, it's really made me double down on this play being like a, it, it's like essential nourishment for me to be able to be okay in amongst what's going on.

So, I don't know, choose whichever one you want to start with. I think probably cultivation, like why did we lose it in the first place? How are we trained not to play? 

TJ Matton: So I think one of the, um, I think one of the things to maybe start with that feels like an important education point is that play is a primal drive.

It's a homeostatically driven drive in this. Yes. Meaning that we like, like sleep hunger, uh, and thirst are homeostatically driven drives as is play. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: So we are either play nourished or play deprived. Right. But we are never void. Like we're void of play, but it gets sort of repressed. And, um, like, Ensnared and lashes [00:20:00] out.

Yeah. It is seen like oftentimes, like the way I work in my own pra like mental health practice is like looking at where people's mental health symptoms align with their ab like with their play drives. 

Kylie Patchett: Mm-hmm. 

TJ Matton: Um, and so I think that's one thing to, like, when we talk about like, how do we re cultivate play mm-hmm

Um. Is understanding that like, play is again not this external thing we do, it's a cultivated, like, you can sleep and not rest. You can do hobbies and not feel, like, fulfilled. Yes, you can. You can go to socialize and not feel connected, right? And again, play is, like, the way we teach play is from this internal cultivation standpoint.

And I think one of the primary ways we lose it is by giving external frames, like external things, so much weight and power and validity. Right? So like, at least, you know, you ask somebody like, Oh, how was your run? And they're like, Oh, great. I ran five miles today. Right? That doesn't actually answer the question.

Right? Like, how was your run is like, Oh, it was so wonderful. I felt breath in my chest and my body was in motion. Right? So we give a lot, you know, one of the ways we lose it is simply by kind of like the structure of externalization and the highlighting of what do you do? How did it work, versus like asking people for their internal experience of a moment.

Well, 

Bailey Jacobs: and let's just, sorry TJ to jump in. No, I wanted 

TJ Matton: to kick it to you. 

Bailey Jacobs: That's as intended by society, right? Absolutely. Even that framing of we give to external, like no, those external pressures are on us from a young age, right? Yeah, 100%. And it's about, you know, when we talk about the run, for example, right?

Well, that's productivity culture, right? Yeah. That's what I was about to say. That's the output, right? We are from a young [00:22:00] age that it's the output, not the process, not the feeling that matters, right? It is fitting into societal standards that matter, right? It's conforming in a, you know, capitalistic white supremacist society.

That's what matters. And so over time. Your play is just because society doesn't care about your joy, right? So over time it's just slowly and slowly whittled away as you continue to do what's right by conforming and You know, so like when we talk about recultivating play Sometimes shame of oftentimes shame and grief will come up, but it absolutely always Always, but people need to understand, this is like 20, 30 years in the making here, right?

Yeah, exactly. This is not something you're going to undo because we've been conditioned to act this way. We are supposed to act this way, which is why it's revolutionary to step out of that system. And to reclaim, Reclaim that internal experience. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. And TJ, what are the, 

Bailey Jacobs: Sorry. No, 

Kylie Patchett: sorry. I just, as you were talking, like to me, as soon as you gave the running example, I'm like, Oh my God, it's, it's all the same pattern.

Right? Like, it's so funny as I'm writing this book about disruption, I'm like, this is all the same fricking shit. Like I've talked to people in the beauty industry, like about, you know, body imagery about, you know, dealing with trauma, like all of these different things. And it's like the key overlapping issue is a system of oppression that measures us in our output and our productivity.

And teaches us that our worth is connected to those things. And so, yes, everything else gets devalued. And even when you're saying, like, you know, it's 20 and 30 years in the making, I would argue it's generational by the time, like, because I'm just thinking about, I never saw a well resourced, playful woman, ever.

TJ Matton: Absolutely. 

Kylie Patchett: That's a lot of what 

TJ Matton: we talk about. That's a lot of what we talk about. And like, that play, playfulness, like while it is a primal drive, right? It's also a skill, it's also a privilege, right? Yes. Um, it [00:24:00] is not like, You know, like, and we talk about, yeah, like, it's a play, it's a, I mean, it's a skill, it's a privilege, it's a human right, but it's also something that we learn is passed, like, is passed down, right, and we have generations and generations of both for men and women, the loss of their playful selves and in different ways.

And, um, and like not knowing really what that looks like in an everyday body, right? And again, this is a big part of why we really, you know, I struggle to kind of teach people, like, give people, like, for as much as I've taught play, I struggle giving people, like, play homework. And like, like things to go do because we are so focused on this, like the intellectual and somatic experience of play.

 So, you know, one of the things we were just talking about is like kind of the impact of like systemic, like pressure performance, perfectionism and how our culture like values more like definitive play, right?

Like things that are out there, things that you can prove. Right. And similarly, like, you know, this can come in things like, um, like Legos, right? Like where you have something to show. Puzzles where you have something to show. Um And we have this idea of kind of like, this kind of closed ended, like, finite play that has a clear open, middle, and end.

And then you can kind of often hand it to somebody as like, proof. Versus more infinite play, where like, the game is ongoing, and ongoing, and ongoing. And it's incredible, and while both play is [00:26:00] very dependent on the internal person's experience, infinite play, rarely has something to show for it. Right. And so it requires us to listen to somebody and to believe them.

And I don't think we're great at that as a culture, right? Like we don't believe people, we don't listen to people's stories, right? Like, tell me what that was like for you. Yeah. Right. And like, cause we also, we often like kind of. If we do share that, it's like, oh, prove it. Like, why do you think that happened?

Right? We immediately shifted to intellectualizing. And again, like, prove to me that it was a good experience for you. Why was that such a good experience? Like, I don't fucking know. It just was. Yeah, exactly. It was 

Bailey Jacobs: better than the productive things you could have been doing. Like, oh, you spent all day wandering the woods?

Like, oh, I spent the day cleaning. Right? Like, you oughta Yeah, like, how 

TJ Matton: long did you walk? 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. I had like four piles of laundry I had to do. Like people automatically start being like, well, what could they have been doing with their time? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. And can want to put it into a box.

And that's the thing. 

TJ Matton: And so like finite play, like culturally we teach a lot more finite play, like, you know, um, choreographed dance classes, um, sporting events that are skill driven. Arts and crafts, um, like a lot of this is very hands on, more finite play versus like things, again, that like kind of lean into the infinite play framework, um, that doesn't have a clear start or an end, it doesn't necessarily have proof, it's like something that is just so felt, and we don't see this kind of, we don't see these kind of leaders emerging, and I think in our culture, I don't think we see, um, we don't like nourish this style of play, right?

Like my, I have a daughter who's 11 and she struggles with reading and not necessarily because of any specific disability that we know of, but. You know, she's very good at reading, but she does not read on her [00:28:00] own. And it really drives my family crazy, because they're all readers. But I'm not much of a reader either, to be honest.

And I asked her, I was like, has anybody ever taught you to enjoy reading? And she's like, I don't understand what you mean. Because she can deconstruct sentences. She can do grammar. She can do main character. Like, she can structurally diagnose a story. But she's never been given, like, a prompt that's like, What was your favorite part of the book?

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: What did it feel like to lose yourself to that character? Yes. Like we never, yeah, like we don't ask those open ended cultivating questions of students or of learners or of players, right? So we really teach people in a much, in a very structural linear way that very quickly just like extinguishes that internal, like.

Like self languaging and self exploring, um, that is so necessary to keep in play alive. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. As you're talking, like, I'm just like, every, every single time I have a new conversation around these types of things that we're deconstructing. I'm like, Oh my God, it's just more ranking. Like we value from the chin up more than we value from the chin down or wait, you know, for many, many, many hundreds of years.

And so therefore. We don't ask questions that lead people to, you know, lead our children as parents or teachers or whatever, to languaging what this feels like, because it's not even valued in the first place. Like, I'm like, Oh my God. 

TJ Matton: But one of the things like, and like, you know, one of the things that you talked about that I kind of want to like, just check in with like the three of us, because I'm kind of curious about this, like, are you having fun right now?

Kylie Patchett: I am. Cause I love to be intellectually playing. How do you know that? How do you know that? Uh, expansiveness in my body. That's how I actually feel. I have always said, like, I feel like my soul is wagging its tail when I'm doing something that I'm enjoying. Yeah. [00:30:00] Um, that's how I feel actually, as you're talking, I'm, I'm working, I joined, um, Radical healers to do some more study and energy work.

And one of the kind of introductory sort of, um, I guess it is a play thing, um, is, is about choosing three things that you'll like commit to each day. And one's like a deconstructing of something. One's a constructing of something and one's a neutral activity. And my neutral activity, I purposely chose.

It's just getting my yoga mat out to play on it. And as a yoga teacher who has all of the structure and the flow and the, you know, this is what you do next, or this is whatever, Oh my God, it triggers the absolute fuck out of me. But it's one of the best things that I've challenged myself to do because as soon as I'm there.

I love it. And I start just breathing and moving in whatever way feels good. I'm like, Oh, hello, you here. I am here. I am hello. And I'm like, Oh my God, like I'm committing to this 10 minutes a day, but. I, I would have, I would have spent decades of my life with no felt sense of what was going on here. That's astounding to me.

And it makes me, yeah, it just makes me sad. Like I have a lot to say about. The education system in general, anyway, being Neuro sparkly, having kids that are Neuro sparkly. Like, I just don't think that we are helping the most, like, I don't feel like our learning systems foster people to be individuals.

That's, you know, like we, we all know that. Um, but yeah, I'm curious about the, like, when do we lose? Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to, 

TJ Matton: I want to, I want to. Before I answer this question, how we lose play, but I want to ask Bailey, like, are you having fun? Cuz and and then I want to tell you why I'm asking this question.

Yeah. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, so I I feel very excited, right? [00:32:00] And I feel, I always feel that in my heart, like a very, just like glow almost, right? And like a sparkle that comes from like being engaged in play, um, always just kind of, it's like a vibration and a liveness that like, kind of just like kind of radiates, right? Um, and it can be seen as excitement or just like happiness, but yeah, I'm loving being with you two wonderful women.

Absolutely. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. And, you know, and I think one of the reasons I asked this is I think one of the ways we lose play is that we get a very specific idea of what it looks like, right? Versus again, asking what it feels like, right? And And like the, you know, for me, like, I feel all of that warmth, but I can also feel the fear of like using my voice, bringing my story and my work across the ocean.

Yeah. Right? Like, am I going to get all the right points? Is this going to welcome the right people? Right? Like, you know, so and again, in this place where like, it feels so good to be with people that like, are the right playmates, but it doesn't take the risks of the play away. Right. And I think one of the ways that women in particular lose play is we get this image that we have to be this like very extravagant joker, funny.

Theatrical. Yeah. Like, way, when again, that is just one style of play. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: It is not like everybody's play experiences. So one of the ways, again, to begin to recultivate and reclaim play is like, just throw the fucking story that you have about what it is away. Like just throw it out the fucking window, right?

Like it's wrong. Right? Yeah. If you, if you have the word play come up and you have a very specific like book cover to it. Yes. Like. It's not, it's not, that's not it, 

Kylie Patchett: right? Like, 

TJ Matton: any sort of sense of expectation that feels like a threat to the body, or the body can't see itself within, it's just not the right definition.

Because again, play is this [00:34:00] primal drive, like you are meant to be playful. 

Kylie Patchett: And 

TJ Matton: part of recultivating the play experience is reclaiming your own internal language, your own internal experience, like, and writing your own, like, narrative of what play is. For you and your body and in your life and in your community, you know, so I've asked this question because like I don't think that it looked necessarily like when people listen to these kind of podcasts, they're like, well, why aren't they playing?

Why aren't they laughing more? And like, and again, if all of us are enjoying ourselves, all of us feel engaged. and enjoyment, then we're in the play state because that's what play gets to find out is like feeling engaged with enjoyment as it's kind of like central compass experience. But in that, in that level of engagement comes with like a sense of like, oh, this feels a little risky to be alive like this, right?

Like, this is what the books taught me, right? 

Bailey Jacobs: Outside of the books. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. 

Bailey Jacobs: It's a dropping into presence, right? And I think that's also where a lot of the risk comes in, right? We have so many protective patterns in place, right? Just from existing in society. And I think that it's, um, that aliveness and that being present and connected can, is, has vulnerability with it too.

Yeah. 

Kylie Patchett: 100%. Actually, you're making me. 

TJ Matton: Oh, sorry. Go ahead. 

Kylie Patchett: Oh, I was, I was just, as you're talking, Bailey, what I'm, Being reminded of is that we, I had a coaching call with my mastermind the other day, and we were talking about this self monitoring part that is often, you know, particularly when we are not, you know, you know, true authentic self, like fully, you know, in ourselves, like this monitoring part that's like, am I doing this right?

Am I this? Am I that? Am I whatever? And as you're talking, I'm like, Oh yeah. I, when I'm not in my authentic self, I'm not able to access things from a, like a, a true enjoyment or like, I'm, it's like, I [00:36:00] can't squeeze the juice out of things because there's this part of me that is like monitoring whether I am doing it right.

Um, and TJ, like about the risk, like. I definitely had, um, like I haven't been podcasting for a few weeks now. And even just thinking about like starting, I'm like, Oh, have I, am I going to be like, you know, I love podcasting, but am I going to be able to just slide back into interviewing that type of thing?

And I'm like, well, it doesn't matter. And I think then that when you were saying about safety before, because I know you two like quite well, so there's a sense of safety of like, Oh yeah, I can feel this riskiness and the edge of. You know, that little bit of nervousness, but still be present and enjoy because I do have that safety, whereas if it was two people that I didn't know, more than likely there would be less, there would be less presence going on.

TJ Matton: And can I pull something out that you just said that is, I think, interesting. You know, talking about like, oh, am I going to be able to like, slide right back into podcasting, like, oh, it doesn't matter. Like, it does matter. And like, that's why you're worried about it. Like, that's why you're monitoring it.

Because like, you want to be a good storyteller. You want to be a good story cultivator. Right? So like, I think there's also this kind of like, shift that we've done in like, pushing away the monitor. Right? But like, actually that internal monitor is also often the part that pushes us towards play, right?

It's the part that says like, this isn't working, 

Kylie Patchett: right? Like this isn't 

TJ Matton: working. Something's not clicking. Like I'm not feeling my joy, right? Like it's a puzzle, right? Like we have to have an intellectual player involved in order to cultivate new patterns, right? Because like, that's a kind of sense of self leadership, right?

So like, it's not about like kind of. Getting rid of the monitor, but like identifying like the quality of monitoring, right? The kind that like encourages us and inspires us. And again, I think it's really easy for us Like we've kind of easily as a culture just been like, oh like this doesn't matter like it's going to be fine But like a lot of the time it does matter in play is like it's okay for things to fucking [00:38:00] matter 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah, 

TJ Matton: like it's okay for you to feel nervous That you might not slide in because like this shit's important to you.

Kylie Patchett: Yes, very much. Yeah. 

TJ Matton: You know, so it's a big place, also this place of like linking self with meaningfulness. Yes. What are you going to say, Bailey? 

Bailey Jacobs: I was gonna say, it's also helps you understand the, the monitors that matter, right? Because I think for so many people, the voice, the, the self monitoring is external voices of the things.

The measuring. Yes. Yeah. Is the measuring, is the, you know, the productivity, those of. Of like the right way to be, the right way to do, the right way to feel, those monitorings, play helps you cast those off, right? It helps you relearn. It makes the invisible rules visible in a way where you can start to relearn what actually feels good to you because it is an internal experience.

You're tapping into self in a really powerful way that isn't prescribed by external people or external systems, um, which allows you to know when the mo like when that voice, that monitoring is you or when that voice, that monitoring is bullshit from other sources. Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. You know, so one of the things I wanted to, like, also kind of circle back to, like, you know, as we talk about these pieces is like, how do we lose play?

Right. And we've talked about some of like the structural pieces and like, you know, because it happens in all like all different levels, like, right, like cultural systemic issues. educational issues, community issues, family systems issues, intergenerational issues, and then like issues like sort of also within self, right?

Because like one of the times that girls lose play is from between the ages of eight and eleven. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Right? And the research talks about girls losing play at this time because there is such a high drive for community and belonging at this age. So they start to deprioritize self and increase the priority, like increase the importance of.

Belonging and [00:40:00] cohesion and group, um, which isn't unhealthy at like in, like, you know, we need to learn this skill, right? Um, and it's a time that when we are fine, when we aren't teaching actually people the balance of like self versus. other versus together, right? Like right now, each of us is having our own individual play experience.

Yes. That we are bringing into a collective experience. Yes. Through the medium of a podcast, right? So there's a, there's levels and layers to the play. And so girls lose play between eight and 11 because, um, one, there's a really strong need for community that often means compromising the individuality in order to Fine belonging and this is just developmentally necessary, right?

but does mean that there is a loss of individual play without necessarily a Cultivation of good group play dynamics, right? Because this is also the age in which performance and perfection turn on for girls, right? Because intergenerationally this is the age that girls would start Like tending to the house.

Yeah, right. They became they become parentified They're the expectations go out like through the wazoo for no reason. Yep. Yeah, um like and so Kind of within the family systems like culture would like play was lost within our education system play gets lost This is a time where at least in the US they start actively grading Versus like grading being not mattering.

Um, and like culturally the rise of expectations. And then in this age, the push for girls to get good at something, to look good, to beep, like to perform. Yeah. And so it's not necessarily wrong that [00:42:00] we lose our individual, like that. We move into collective experiences, but it's the loss of balance where every system is saying lose yourself to these standards, right?

Oh my lord. And this is something I see, and this is where I, you know, and then I'm going to come back and answer this question a little bit about like how do trauma and play blend together. But I also want to talk about um, boys and their loss of play because I think this is really essential. That we understand that boys lose play at 5 and 15 and these are often the ages in which they boys are encouraged to Step into more powerful dynamics of themselves.

Yeah, right like they're encouraged to minimize their emotions and their vulnerability at 5 and they are Encouraged to become like kind of pursuers and daters and like Men at 15. Yeah. Right? Man up. Man up. And so these ages at 5 and 15 are often like losses of play for boys because, and it has to do with power.

Um, power dynamics and being pushed into overpowering or into power as a structure versus empowerment that would come from within. And part of the importance of play dynamic is that actually nobody has power. 

Kylie Patchett: Right? The power is 

TJ Matton: in the collective. It's, like, it is, there's an openness to receiving and, like, letting play be moved by the medium you're in or by the person you're with.

That, like, I'm never, within a play state, you're never certain. Like, you're never sure. Because, like, that is part of opening the body up and the heart up to the play experience. And men have been pushed into really high standards of performance, power. Like, [00:44:00] knowing, expertise, um, that is horrific on their capacity to build vulnerable embodied relationships that are necessary in our cultural health and to play, um, and, and so men and women are wounded differently based on gender dynamics and at different ages.

And I think it's very easy for us to focus on. Women's play, but like, again, we're all in the same fucking game. Yeah. Like, we're all in this game together. Everybody's suffering together from this loss of play. Like, and when we cultivate our own play, we give permission to our people to become different versions of themselves.

Yes. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I want to, I want to pull a thread that was one of the first things that you said about you. You said about like, if we don't satisfy the drive for play, it comes out in different ways. And you just put out a post on Instagram about like the anger drive. And I'm like, I really want to go down this track of like, if we don't satisfy this need, like this primal need, same as sleep or, you know, thirst, et cetera, what can happen?

Like, what, what do we see at the end game of this? Like deprivation really is what we're talking about. 

TJ Matton: I mean, I can answer that, but I'd be interested, like, what do you think? When you look back as you're cultivating play, as you're recultivating play in yourself, like what did it look like? Uh, depression, anxiety, 

Kylie Patchett: soothing with food, um, being passive aggressive, picking fights with my husband.

Yeah. Lots of really dodgy, unhealthy emotionally. Yeah. Shitty ways of trying to get rid of whatever was in me. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. Your brain needed to engage in something, right? Our brains need activity. Our brains need engagement. And when you play, you are engaging your brain, your body, your heart, your soul. The system for your enjoyment.

You're orienting towards joy. But if you aren't being [00:46:00] intentional about that, if you're not actively playing, you'll start orienting towards other things, right? Your brain will start using that engagement energy towards. you know, anxiety or stress or. Yeah, it'll 

TJ Matton: engage in people like engage acting things versus like with things, right?

So Bailey, for you, like what were some of the signs that now that you've been in play for a couple of years, like what are some of the things that you look back on? You're like, Oh, that was play. Separation. 

Bailey Jacobs: Oh, yeah, anxiety and control, right? The like hyper fixation on needing to do things a certain way or hyper plan for things, right?

I have a very natural directorial play, which means that I enjoy planning. I enjoy envisioning things. Um, but I would hyper do that, right? I would hyper focus, right? And I would have a lot of anxious thoughts. Uh, We were trying to plan for things that I have no control over. I think that's one of the things that's going on right now is we are all so hyper focused on literally things we cannot control because we have no other outlets to push our energy.

Right? And then, the things I could control, I was holding so tightly. So tight. So tight that like I needed to do these these certain ways and in many ways it would be things like travel or like a concert experience or a cooking experience. They needed to go the exact right way or else I would not feel good, right?

This is, yeah, this is, this is the only path 

TJ Matton: I had. That's another really great reason like why to take play out of, like not that external things aren't important, but like if we're not cultivating an internal playful place, we give so, like all of those external things are too risky. They matter too much.

You know, like, they matter too much. So for me, like, my play Deprivation, like Bailey said, she's a little bit of a planner. I love being in my body. I've always really loved sports. I've loved playing, being really physical. And so my play deprivation looked like kind of getting really obsessed with certain sports.

Um, often [00:48:00] to the point of chronic injury, um, like pretty horrific injuries of like overuse of my body. 

Kylie Patchett: I was also 

TJ Matton: an alcoholic and like used like alcohol as this way to like, like feel free in my body. Um, and so like those, As I re cultivated play, like, one of the first places that I, like, really started to, like, hone in on was, like, what engagement and enjoyment felt like in my body.

And, like, so that, because, like, and really kind of, really challenging this part of me that would lash out through and, like, kind of get obsessed with certain things to the point of losing myself. Because that's an, like, that's a thing that's interesting about play is that you lose yourself to play, but you don't actually lose, right?

Play is regenerative. We're like, yeah, again, you don't always know the purpose of it. You don't know why you're following your impulse. You don't know why it's like you're getting called in this direction, but it cultivates a sense of trust in yourself over time that like no play gets lost, right? Like no play goes unused, but we are not in control of its use or of its growth.

Um, and so like for me, like, yeah, my play deprivation looked a lot like, um, like very highs and lows in my emotional landscape because I, and a lot of really intense physical out, like. Outlets that would cause harm for me. Yeah. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: You know, so I, again, like people's different, you know, for you, like, you know, and all of these are things that are signs of play deprivation.

And when we look at how play can be seen in mental health symptoms, you know, we've got a DSM between us. Yeah, we have. Yeah. You know, which at this point, like when I go, I don't carry a diagnosis. which I'm not saying as [00:50:00] like a, like, I do carry an ADHD diagnosis, but like I've been diagnosed as PTSD, chronic depression, anxiety, bipolar, right?

Like I've had a strong history of diagnoses and not a single person in my current clinical history asked me if I was playing or like explored play deprivate, like play deprivation versus nourishment in my clinical frame. Right. This was something I found in my own work and. And I don't, I, I, I don't know if I have heard of anybody being asked, what is your play experience like?

I hear people being asked, like, what do you do for fun? But that's, again, not the same as play. No, 

Kylie Patchett: no. 

TJ Matton: Play is different than fun. Like, fun is, emerges from play. But that's not The on ramp for people. That's an expectation. 

Kylie Patchett: And it's also a stupid thing to say to someone who's, like, chronically depressed. Go and have fun.

Like, when you're chronically depressed, you have no Like, 

TJ Matton: um Even now, as somebody who's, like, all in play, like, when somebody says that to me, I'm like, oh my god, get the fuck out of my face. Yeah, 

Bailey Jacobs: so much pressure. That's the wrong question. Yeah. 

Kylie Patchett: So much pressure. Um, I I'm at a standard, like, I, I mean, part of me is not a standard because I used to be a sleep and respiratory scientist.

So, you know, experiencing life as a medical scientist in a hospital system, which again, is a broken system based in a hierarchical, you know, fixing model where we, you know, um, medicalize and yep, rank and whatever, but I'm going to say it anyway, it astounds me that something that is a primal drive is not being centered.

in a therapeutic context. Like, how can we not be talking about that? And it also We ask 

TJ Matton: people about sleep. We ask people about nutrition. We ask people about, like, some of these other core pieces, you know. [00:52:00] Sometimes we ask people about loneliness. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Right? But we don't actually teach people to play again.

Kylie Patchett: No. 

TJ Matton: We just like expect that like, they know how. Hence the revolution. That they'll figure it out. You know. That they'll just figure it out. Right? I don't even know. 

Bailey Jacobs: I would say we're not even telling adults. We're not even putting an expectation on adults to do that. Right? There's so much research and I'd say one piece that a lot of people get tripped up on is there's so much research now about how important play is for children that parents often even get.

re traumatized or re triggered by play by seeing their children play because there's so much pressure that my child must play well, right? Like there's so much pressure now that like it's so important. I must make sure I'm cultivating play in every moment of their lives But like you're not modeling it for them anywhere, right?

Yeah, so like people are so disconnected and play deprived that there's no modeling And also there's so much pressure on the adults in the room to create play when like they don't even know what that brings them joy. Yeah, 

TJ Matton: like your kids don't need you to play. No. Right? They don't need you to play, right?

They actually need you to get the hell out of their play. Yes. Most of the time. I mean like they don't want you out of the relationship, but they don't need you in their play. Well, the greatest gift you can give to your child is the thing that all three of us have already referenced is that we never got to see a healthy, healthy, uh, like, adult in their play, right?

And so, like, what an incredible gift for, like, my kid to not be afraid of becoming an adult. Because like, I get to take different kinds of risks and I got a little bit more money than you do to take it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I get to like, nobody's putting me on a bedtime, you little, you know, like, like, you know.

I wish someone would. I know, for real. I like, I should, I tell my husband, I was like, you know, I need that. Go to bed, play Teddy. But again, like, you know, what it's, how beautiful it is for kids to not be so, in such a. An astounding level of grief of losing childhood. So afraid of becoming themselves, afraid of becoming [00:54:00] adults.

And so many adults are actually modeling that because it sucks being an adult right now. Adulting is fucking worse than our culture right now. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, there's no joy. No joy at all. Right? 

Kylie Patchett: No joy. 

Bailey Jacobs: Mm-hmm . 

Kylie Patchett: You, um, you said something about Parentification before. I wanna come back to that because when you said about being triggered by your own kids', play it really.

It connected something for me and I, I, so I have a parent that struggles with addiction. So I was parentified very, very early, um, and you know, was put into the role of caregiver. And so I didn't play as a kid, there was no play. And I actually really relate very hard to Bailey with the control thing, because to me that was seeking safety because I had a chaotic, you know, chaotic home environment.

And so. As a young adult, like my friends would give me so much shit about, like, she needs to know every single thing and where are we going to go to and get fuel on the way to the, like, I just could not cope with anything that I didn't know was happening. Cause, and I now can very easily see that I was seeking safety.

But, um, when my kids were born, I've got girls 12 months apart. So like, and we went from my husband and I to my dad and my husband and I, and to. Kids in the space of a year. So it's quite like a, it's quite intense transition. And I went from like managing a big, um, medical company with 200 people. So lots of ability to control, you know, lots of moving parts, lots of things that you couldn't, you know, shining in that role.

Yeah. High performance shining in that role, working 24 hours, just ridiculous, like self abandonment stuff. But then I would get home from that role and my husband would be, you know, On the floor. Having some wild like play with the kids and I'd be like, well, I'm fucking good for you that you can lay on the floor and be, I was just so unable to understand.

A, that he could just walk in the door and not look at what needed to be done because that was like, you [00:56:00] know, again, my sort of agenda. But yeah, that, you know, he was just on the floor playing and I'm like, thank God one of us was. But I look back and I think I was just absolutely, totally triggered by the fact that you could just.

Be in enjoyment. Mm-hmm. Like I had a no reference point. Right. Um, mm-hmm. And now I, I feel like, I don't know the kids. My girls are 19 and 20 now, so, um, and one of them's moved back home and we this stupid dance competition in the kitchen last night. And I was like, it's like I'm grateful that I've been able to learn ways of being in enjoyment, but I do look back at their younger childhood and I think.

Wow. I would definitely do that differently. And obviously you can't go back in time, but I just think the parentification, it's also interesting to me that like between the ages of eight and 11 is when you're starting that. puberty transition and estrogen is starting to ramp up and by definition that is a hormone of accommodation.

And I'm like, interesting. So there's biological drivers is starting as well. Um, Bailey, when you were talking before you said a particular type of play, and I'm interested, like, can you kind of capture, cause I do think. When, like when you said before, you know, play is X for people and if we've got an X around it is more than likely not actually play.

So can we talk about some different like types of play for people that are like listening going, Oh, I don't know. I don't know. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, well, so I was referencing the one of the 

There you go [01:48:00] beautiful one, another delicious, juicy, truth talking episode with a Disruptor, Rebel or Revolutionary sharing the identity shifts. And the mess and the magic of leading right on the edge of your expansion and going first as a visionary leader, as a woman creating a business, and inviting people to completely new ways of learning, living, loving, and leading.

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