S5E11 Part 2: How to Play Your Way to Healing with TJ Matton + Bailey Jacobs

This week on the podcast, we speak to TJ Matton and Bailey Jacobs from the Play Revolution. 

TJ is a social worker, psychotherapist, coach, and constructive misbehavior enthusiast. As founder of The Playful Revolution help people understand the neuroscience of play, integrate play into their healing, and reconnect with the power and potential of play. 

Bailey’s play is planning. Planning parties, planning meals, and planning adventures big and small with her friends and family. As the Chief Orchestrating Officer (COO) of The Playful Revolution, Bailey uses her directorial play prowess to oversee the company’s strategy, operations, and marketing. 

Fundamental to their work is play as a human right, play is a primal need that exists in all mammals and needs to be nourished and nurtured throughout a person’s lifetime.  

In this pod chat, we speak about:

• How our world and the invisible systems that rule all of them care about how much we produce, how much we consume and that we produce more producers and consumers - and definitely NOT about our joy!
• the different ages and stages that girls and boys lose their ability to play, and why 
• How play is the experience of cultivating joy in the everyday, and NOT In adding something else to the to-do list. 
• the different types of play and a simple 30 second play prompt that we do live in the interview

Find TJ, Bailey and the Playful Revolution - including their brandy new podcast - here www.theplayfulrevolution.com

This is my high-touch, holy-f*ck-I’m-ready sistermind for rebels in good girl clothes who are done outsourcing their power and diluting their magic to fit into someone else's formula.

If you've been craving a space where your strategy, your voice, and your energy all get to be honoured, refined, and amplified – this is it.

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Transcript

TJ Matton: [00:00:00] Competition is this place where you bring people of like kind of equal skills together that challenge each other, right?

Like challenge, like we just challenge each other to like feel alive in our own environments. Like what a cool thing that we just competed against.

Kylie Patchett: Welcome to the wild and finally fucking free podcast show. This is a space where truth talking gets real behind the scenes. Grit of the future humans is laid bare, and we are celebrating and sharing the real world stories of change agents, neuro sparkly people, the witchy wild women, the deep feelers, the unapologetic senses, the status quo challenges, and the huge hearted healers and helpers.

And guiding you through this wild ride of entrepreneurship and full heart led contribution to the world is me, your host, Kylie Patchett, aka KP. I am a proudly NeuroSparkly, natural born status quo challenger, and I thrive on helping disruptors, rebels and revolutionaries find their voices, amplify their message into the world, and harness their raw potential.

Alchemise it into unleashing your full potency. Not only will I be sharing the behind the scenes of some of the most amazing, most status quo challenging thought leaders, I'll also be lifting the veil behind my own business. In 2024, I 18x'd my monthly income. Still blows my mind to say that. And this year I am leaning into how joyful and fun it would be to shift from six figures to seven figures in a quantum shifting year, all through leading from my full unapologetic voice, my unleashed potency, and with my big wildly lit up heart leading the way.

Every single step of the way. So together with my guests, I am going to be sharing the mess and the [00:02:00] magic. Spilling the tea on the identity shifts behind stepping into thought leadership. Breaking the ties that bind us.

Unlearning old patterns and reweaving brand new ways of living, loving, learning, and leading. We're here to break boundaries, reimagine what's possible, all while collapsing timelines and leading with joy, love, and our fiercest wild woman selves. This is not just a podcast. It is a rebellion. It is a revolution.

It is an invitation to join the Mad Hatter's collective movement. And by Mad Hatters I mean all the colourful, creative, gorgeous, world changing, out of the box humans out there. If you've ever longed to be wild and finally fucking free, this is your sign to lean in. Let's get started.

So can we talk about some different like types of play for people that are like listening going, Oh, I don't know. I don't know. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, well, so I was referencing the one of the preeminent kind of researchers on play, Dr. Stewart Brown, and he identified eight play personalities. And so while there are, there's no wrong way to play, right?

It's your internal experience. There are some kind of pillars of research that have been done. And so we reference all of them, right? Like, we don't subscribe to any one. Um, and so, but for the eight play personalities, let's see if I can name them from memory. Let's go. Yes! Um, so I mentioned directorial, which is Uh, the ability to like plan and vision, right?

Yes. For people who love planning trips or love planning parties. There's the storyteller, which Kylie, that's probably a very natural home for you. know that was 

Kylie Patchett: one of them. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. And that's also people who just didn't, you know, there's the classic of telling stories, right? Or engaging in stories. But then there's also just the passive receiving of stories, right?

How are you? Where are you? [00:04:00] Where can you come alive in? In story, whether it be a podcast, a book, movie, there's the creator, which is kind of this idea of like building. That's where arts and crafts live, right? The like idea of like making something, but cooking also lives there, right? Um, that is where your, yeah, I told, cooking's a very natural play place for me, right?

Where it's just the creation, the building of something. Yes. Hands on. Yeah. Yeah. Very cute aesthetic. Yeah. Um, and then another very natural place for adults is the Explorer. And that is, uh, the wonder that comes alive is seeing something new, right? So going somewhere new, traveling to new places, um. Are all living in the Explorer and that can be done on a big scale, right?

Like I used to be someone who like always had the next trip planned, right? Because I had to have that newness. Yeah Yeah, but now I find I think I can find newness everywhere now, right? I can walk down the same path that I walk all the time in the woods and by my house and still Feel that exploration and wonder in what I'm doing, right?

And then there's number five. I would say it's the competitor That is and one thing to note with the competitor is it's about rules TJ hinted on that before of like all of us entering into an experience together with a set of rules. Yes, and One thing that gets hard is people who are naturally competitive can get kind of swooped into winning or losing right that outcome That comes right that the outcomes what's important.

Yes. And I've also gone through an experience of not being a competitive person in part because I hated the outcome of losing of reclaiming the joy that comes from the experience of competing. And I didn't want my daughter to become a poor sport. Like I was I'm like, I needed to relearn the joy that comes.

In the experience of competing, not the opposite. I hate 

TJ Matton: competing. Like, I hate. You [00:06:00] don't. You don't. I guarantee you don't. Well, we're gonna run a competition in a second. Okay. guarantee you you're not gonna hate it. Okay. Cause I, yeah. Okay. I want, I want to highlight, I want you to understand the difference between how you've been trained as a competitor versus the primal drive of competition.

Okay. 

Bailey Jacobs: Okay? Uh, and then we 

TJ Matton: have the. 

Kylie Patchett: Intellectual. 

Bailey Jacobs: I don't. And then kinetic. Intellectual. Yes. Uh. So kinetic is, um, movement, moving your body, right? That often gets strapped for adults in exercise classes, right? Like, uh, a form and structure, which often exercise is not play, right? Like we, we have so much shit on top of that, that like stops it from being play, you know?

Um, and then there's the joker, which is the classic, like That's my husband. Yeah. And like, you probably thought of like a very classic, like comedian or jokester type guy, right? Yeah, but the joker, and we like to push this really this point for women a lot, is that it's joy through laughter, right? Mm-hmm

So where can you find joy through the act of laughter, right? Yeah. Like we've had so many laugh, like laughter experiences in this that would've been, that are kind of joker play, um, that isn't one of us getting, well, we are behind microphones, but like not one of us getting behind my grandma and telling jokes, like 

TJ Matton: being in a show.

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, and I'm so proud of myself that I did it, because number eight is the collector. 

TJ Matton: Oh 

Bailey Jacobs: my god! Collector. Um, yeah, and that is, um, you know, the act, you can think of it in very literal terms, like of a, uh, collection of classic cars, or like a stamp collection, but it's also the like, touchstone of like joy through memory, or joy through like collecting of experiences, right?

How can you, how are you, like, how are you building story? Like a tracker. Yeah, and like a mementos from life and like pulling all those pieces together, right? Like even if you wouldn't consider yourself a collector, probably all of us have things that we have Collected, right? Even if it's not a quote unquote like capital C collection.

Yes, right. Yeah. Yeah. And so that and all 

TJ Matton: of these yeah 

I was going to pivot away from Stuart 

Kylie Patchett: Broward, yeah. 

TJ Matton: [00:08:00] Yeah, so we're all, all eight of these. And it's almost like a moving pie chart where like certain people bring out more of this or certain activities bring more out of this but then there's also generally one that people can kind of self identify in.

Um, a couple other places where there's another researcher who talks about four frames of play which is intellectual, other directed, whimsical and, um, frivolous. Um, that was whimsical, and I think it's frivolous. Um, and, and again, I think it's important to understand, like, people, there's people who freaking love studying, right?

Like, who love learning new things, and that can be seen kind of as an explorer, 

Kylie Patchett: right? Like, exploring 

TJ Matton: new topics, it can also be seen in this intellectual framework, right? Um, there's also for me, I think, thinking about play in like this linear way, things that have like direction, and then, and then breath place, right?

Like, width, and have that kind of like, meandering feel to it. There's also, you know, um, that balance of novelty and repetition, right? Where novelty Kind of puts us into that more hyper aroused place like, uh, what's house is gonna go Which is important and And then there is the repetition aspect that puts us in contact with our mastery of something, right?

Builds confidence, right? And they both bring a different type of confidence, which is my confidence to be surprised. Yes. And my confidence to be empowered and in control, right? Yep. In a way. Um, and one of the primary things about play is that it's always driven by choice, right? And so this is part of why, like, exercise is not always play for people.

Yes. Because while you may choose to go to an exercise class. If a teacher is not teaching from a playframe, then they're not, like, if nobody is, if everybody's doing the exact same thing, you may not be in the [00:10:00] play zone, right? You may, but you may, you may not. It may not be safe to be in that individuation.

So, you know, when we talk about competition, I want to run a little competition for us, right? Um, because I want you to think, because I want you to understand, like, competition is, like, not as a, winning and losing. Yeah. But as a like, um, everybody has to play by the same rules, right? Okay. And so listeners, you guys can do this too.

Um, and I'm going to play one of Bailey's favorite, like one of our favorite little play hunts. So I'm going to put a timer here for 30 seconds. Okay. And see how many, Colors of green, can you find? Alright, ready, set, ready, set, go.

Alright, stop. Okay, so before you tell your answer, right, what's it like to be in the anticipation of what other people's answers are? 

Kylie Patchett: This is so funny for me. I've always put this down to being an only child. I'm deeply uncomfortable competing against other people. I am very happy to compete against myself.

So I feel anticipation in a good way. And also like, I hope that I don't win. 

TJ Matton: Right. Right. So that's okay though. Right. Like there's a, again, that play it plays with like joy and risk. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. Yep. 

TJ Matton: Right. Like aliveness and risk. Right. And so again, [00:12:00] like Competition is this place where you bring people of like kind of equal skills together that challenge each other, right?

Like challenge, like we just challenge each other to like feel alive in our own environments. Like what a cool thing that we just competed against. Yes, yes. Oh my god! It's entering, it's like it's entering a very confined experience in a commitment of togetherness, of following the same rules, right? Like, I, like, And like, and so it's their feeling of like, real cohesion and like, that occurs in competition that is different than like, winning and losing.

Yes. Well, and 

Bailey Jacobs: how did it feel, those 30 seconds to you? How did you? Oh, fun. 

TJ Matton: Like, I, 

Kylie Patchett: I love 

TJ Matton: doing the 

Kylie Patchett: thing. It's just 

TJ Matton: the, I don't know, I'm just having so much fun. Oh my god, would you say that it's using your voice? That's a little scary. Yes. Being seen is a little scary. Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah, like being celebrated might feel a little scary.

Yes, 

Kylie Patchett: definitely. Oh my god. Oh 

TJ Matton: no, you might be up against some play edges. Do you 

Kylie Patchett: know, as we're talking, all I can think about is my younger daughter, like I've like my daughters are so completely different. Like you couldn't get, like, they are literally opposites. And my younger daughter has always been super competitive.

She actually once broke my toe trying to get to the toilet quicker than me. Like, that is, that's the competition I don't like. I don't like it when people are like, all for themselves and I'm going to injure you if you get in my way. That type of thing. That's what the edge is like. Yeah. Anyway. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. Think about that.

It may not be that you don't like competition, but you may have a wounded competitive experiences. That's probably right. Right. Yeah. Right. Um, yeah. Go ahead. In that 

Bailey Jacobs: experience, you had different, like, we can talk about the power dynamics between you and your daughter, but then also like the rules, right?

Like you had rules of like, you know, she's your daughter. You could have shoved her down. You're stronger than her. Like you [00:14:00] could have 

TJ Matton: Yeah, thrown an elbow. That's an 

Bailey Jacobs: invisible rule. You could have thrown a bow right in her forehead and been done and won, right? But she didn't turn 

TJ Matton: around and done it back.

Bailey Jacobs: Right, but she's a kid, right? Like, like, you know? She may not 

TJ Matton: have, there's some consequences because of the power dynamics, right? Right. Those are 

Bailey Jacobs: all invisible rules swirling in that little game, right? And she broke one, literally broke you, and broke one of the rules. Right? By being too rough. Yeah, which is 

TJ Matton: harm.

Bailey Jacobs: Um, 

TJ Matton: you 

Bailey Jacobs: know? And so then it stops being play, right? But like, as her grown up, right? The risk got too high and then you know, that's where it stops being played for you because like it's your job to also steward her through those rules. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And so there's, there's a lot swirling in that. Right.

But at the same time, like, you know, it might just be, uh, you need to find other paths to competition that like bring out the aliveness without bringing out the, like, you know, without stepping on invisible rules. Right. Or without having it be outcome driven. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think 

TJ Matton: that's one of the things that people actually like, you know, some people really love about competition is that it really takes all of the invisible structures.

and makes them very visible, right? So, like, there is a lot of coherence and, um, like, very opting in, right? Like, very much opting in, right? And again, like, we think about, like, how important sometimes structure is, like, The outside of a field, right? Yes. Like, that helps a game, right? It helps build a frame, right?

And so again, this place where like sometimes the sort of structured and rule based play is really important to cultivating internal play experiences as well as sometimes the abandonment. is super important about creating internal, like, internal drive again. So just so, like, you know, people can know.

What numbers did you guys get? Who won? 

Bailey Jacobs: Well, I do think it's [00:16:00] unfair because I'm sitting in a green room. Um, and so, like, I already have one. This is one, though. Yeah, this is one. I got to 17. 

Kylie Patchett: I got to 25 because I have Nice! Look at this, though. This is my unfair advantage. 

TJ Matton: Ooh, so good, right? 

Bailey Jacobs: And 

Kylie Patchett: also, look at my shirt.

Bailey Jacobs: There's like so many different greens. Right, but that's again, we talked about the rules, right? Like, what if we had set the parameter of like each object, you can only count a certain object of green ones, like we could also ruin the play by giving too many rules. Too many rules. Yes. There's not enough freedom.

Yeah, not enough freedom, right? And, like, it's, you know, if one of us, if I was playing by that rule, right? Because I also have a pack of multicolored markers, right? If I was also playing by that rule, but I was like, I only counted that object once, like, that disconnect in rules would have ruined the play, like, would have, could have ruined the game.

Yeah, like, 

TJ Matton: I could have pulled up Google and just done different shades of green. And like have a hundred color, you know, right. So again, like when people are oriented towards winning, it actually doesn't allow for the play dynamic because play is relational. Yeah. Right. It's a relational experience. I only got 13.

I never win this. ever. I am also looking out into 

Kylie Patchett: my garden, which has got like, you know, 50 different plants. 

TJ Matton: You know, that's one of the things I think is so interesting is like, you know, again, in this place where you run into questions and curiosities, like does each plant count as a different color green?

Right. Like when I've played this with people like out in the woods, they're like, well, is earth just one color? I was like, you tell me. Yeah. Right. Like cultivating that place of the rule maker. Right. Like, what are the rules? that you want to cultivate to make this game of life enjoyable? Would it be more fun for you for the earth to just be one color in this game?

Or would it be more fun for you to dive into the richness? And like, there's not a right or wrong answer. Right? It's like, what, you're the rule maker here. What [00:18:00] cultivates more joy? Right. And so it's again in this place of like, what's my, what's my on ramp here to more joy, you know, to feel more relationship with myself and the outside world.

Yeah, 

Kylie Patchett: I love, um, that was really helpful to me to understand the different types of play too, because like you've said before, like thinking that play is one thing, like if you'd sort of said to me at the beginning of this interview, like how much playing do you do, I would have gone, Oh, well, probably not that much.

But then when they talk about like, Like definitely kitchen creativity is somewhere that I definitely play all the time. I made the most divine pumpkin panang curry last night for dinner, which was delicious. Nice. Oh, so good. Um, but also I just went to Melbourne, which is one of our capital cities and I was there for five days and I just was reminded of when I used to travel a lot more and that beginner's mind where?

Everything is new. Like you're figuring out what's the best coffee and where's the, you know, how to get, like, I'd never caught trams before. So how to get on the tram and how to, you know, navigate a new system and how to get here and whatever. Like, I just love that. It lights so many things up in my brain that are just like, I mean, that's pure joy for me.

I'm like, I like, I was literally walking around. I have this like goofy, like. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, the wonder, right? You're like feeling the wonder of connection to something greater than yourself in exploration play, absolutely. 

TJ Matton: You know, and I think one of the things is like when we talk about play and it being this such a multifaceted experience, you know, there's play that is extraordinary, like you talked about lighting up a lot of your brain, right?

And we have play that kind of like lives a little bit more in that high arousal state, right? And then we have play that lives in low arousal states, like reading. Like your favorite book again, right? Like writing a letter to a old, like a loved one, right? Like watching a candle, like flicker, right? Because again, that like kind of low arousal play, [00:20:00] like it's risky to be seen resting.

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. It's 

TJ Matton: risky to be seen in ease, right? To enjoying like the luxury of time, right? Like both hold different types of risks. The risks of feeling alive. and the risks of feeling at ease, right? They hold different risks and people, you know, and so again, it's important when you're thinking about recultivating play that you're starting where the risks are low because you need your body to be able to metabolize the play experience, right?

And then the more you kind of can cultivate the play experience. The more, like, kind of, the more you can kind of continue to dive in deeper and take bigger risks 

Kylie Patchett: on 

TJ Matton: yourself, on other people, on people's places and things, right? And but again, like, play has this breadth and it's important to, like, kind of honor both sides of the spectrum of play.

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Um, and starting where it feels, like, Interesting. Yeah. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. Like, 

TJ Matton: just a little hard. Just a little hard. Baby steps. Yeah. Yeah. And 

Bailey Jacobs: that's where we, when we talk about mindful play, you know, Kylie, you kind of mentioned things that you enjoy doing, right? Yeah. That you are in the play state when you do those.

When we talk about mindful play, we're really helping people, try to get people to bring that intentionality to it. Of that connection to self, of like. Oh, at the end of a long day, I need the going into the flow zone of cooking. And that is a practice that I'm going to commit to, or I'm going to try to do every day.

Because it's, it's a cultivation of my joy, right? And so when you bring that level of intention, not only is it about relearning where those sparks are, relearning where that joy sits, it's about being intentional about it, right? It's about being intentional, risk 

TJ Matton: taking. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. And mindful about where you're going to bring that engagement.

Right. Bring that joy back in, [00:22:00] into your life on a everyday basis everywhere. Right. Um, you know, we showed how we, you can kind of create a spark of play in 30 seconds. Um, it doesn't have to be a big hobby, right? It doesn't have to be a three hour meal. It can be something, just that small reconnection to your joy.

And over time. It grows. It's regenerative. It keeps getting bigger and bigger and more complex and it, it, it's a huge, uh, the best way to grow, honestly. Like when we talk about like healing from drama, right? And personal growth, like reconnecting to this as a kind of guidepost is a hugely powerful way to do that.

TJ Matton: Yeah. I like that. You know, and I think, you know, um, one of the things that when we talk about like play education and like the intersection of play and drama. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, you know, I, as a trauma therapist, believe that everybody has some exposure to trauma, right? We are all in sys like in whether that is on micro occurrences in your own body, family systems dynamics, cultural dynamics, right?

That there's layers that we all are navigating in our own bodies and systems, and like systems of people and trauma. When we think about it, when, how I like to define trauma is that it's too much, too fast. on a body to be able to make sense of and metabolize and move through, right? So it's like being served something without your permission that you can't fully digest, right?

Like eat this T bone steak. You're like, Oh, you know, like there's not enough space for self. There's not a space for digestion. And so you are having to like, Sort of take it and like and your system is like trying to figure out and like spins all the time Now shifting in and out of different survival states right like fight and flight, right like Or [00:24:00] freeze or what we call dorsal or collapse or fawn different ways of thinking about that Right, so we have these three states of the survival system, but right above fight and flight is actually play in the nervous system.

And we don't teach this from an education standpoint. So like right above play is what we call ventral, which is the rest and digest the social connection state. So play lives in between the social system, like the rest and digest system and fight or flight, which is why, like, if you think about play on this like dimmer switch, right?

Like sometimes it's like that more relaxed experience of feeling closer to the Rest and digest, easy social connection, right? And sometimes it's on, like, towards the other side of the dimmer switch where, like, it's a little fucking scary. Yeah. Right? And it actually has, like, when you think about being in play, right?

Like, you know, I often go back to sports, like, being on a sporting field, right? Your hypervigilance is actually turned on a little bit. Yes. Like, where are the players? What's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're watching your back, you got your eyes out for other people, right? That's a form of hypervigilance, right?

And so, play is this place where you're actually turning, like, you're taking some of the arousal patterns that live in fight or flight, right? Where your eyes are darting, you're focused, right? But you're learning to experience those in a safer body experience. And so it's really important, and again, we don't, it is not possible for our bodies to shift out of trauma survival patterns and just end it all good.

You have to play in order to get to the social connection because it's, you can't bypass levels. You can't bypass. And like, I don't understand why, like, I just don't get why we, and I, I mean I do and I don't, but again, we have this culture that's like wants people to feel [00:26:00] good. That wants people to feel fixed.

That like, and so we bypass going from we teach Fight and flight, and we expect that once we get through fight and flight, it's all good. But a lot of mindfulness actually triggers people to shift back down into people pleasing. Right? Like, like, say more 

Kylie Patchett: about that. 

TJ Matton: Right? Like, so, why? So, I work with a lot of people who struggle with meditation.

Right? Because they can't, because they're just being asked to sit still. 

Bailey Jacobs: And be quiet. Right? Which doesn't feel safe. And be alone with your thoughts. And be alone with your thoughts. Which doesn't feel 

TJ Matton: safe. And to be alone with your thoughts. Which doesn't feel safe if you were a child conditioned into good girl behavior.

What is the fucking difference? 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Between asking somebody who has been conditioned into good girl behavior to sit and do good behavior based meditation. 

Kylie Patchett: Oh my god. I feel like we just cut that piece out and that will be your entire interview because that's Right, so like 

TJ Matton: I teach a lot of people like when you meditate, can you just, because when you breathe, like your spine, like stillness is not real.

Stillness is not a thing. I hate that we try to teach stillness. It's not a thing. Because when you breathe Your spine moves like a snake. Undulating, yes. It undulates. Your body is always in undulation. Stillness is an absolutely absurd expectation. It is an unreachable, an absolutely unreachable and absurd expectation.

Kylie Patchett: Yep. 

TJ Matton: So, like, if you are struggling meditating, just fucking move. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: Just fucking move. Because that will create the stillness that you long for if you just sit in the undulation and you just live in that, like, sweet, Right. That sweet pacing. And sometimes people have like faster paces that find their stillness.

Sometimes again, like it's a slower pace that people find stillness. I'm like, I don't fucking know. Cause I'm not in your body, but like throw stillness out the window because it's not a real [00:28:00] fucking thing. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. And, and it does feel like giving just another impossible standard to try to achieve, which is again, extractive and very like.

This is the right way to do this. We need to fix this by doing this. And it's like, well, it's not binary for starters. And again from 

TJ Matton: this like, If 

Bailey Jacobs: you don't feel better, it's your fault. Right? 

TJ Matton: Yeah, this is, You just need to do it more. Do it more. Keep practicing. Keep practicing. Like, maybe this isn't the right way to do this for you.

Right? But I also think the thing I really struggle with and like the way we have hijacked mindfulness is we teach people stillness and quietness without teaching them advocacy. and aliveness, right? So what is the good of being a yoga master if you're not politically active? Correct. What is the good of being, like, great at meditation if you aren't using, like, your calm power to deconstruct systemic oppression?

Hundred percent. And so, like, if you have, we have, like, you can find a gazillion yoga classes. You can't find one single class that teaches primal screaming, right? Like, you can't do, like, if you're only doing one side, you're only doing oppression based mindfulness. You're only doing oppression based mindfulness.

And I, and it, and like, sometimes people are like, why do you hate yoga so much? I don't hate yoga. I hate oppression. I fucking hate oppression. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. Like, it's, and it's just another system, like, like as I'm hearing you talk. And I think that that's why like my mind really struggles with this whole, just get on a yoga mat and play.

But as you're talking about the stillness thing, what I. I have noticed is that almost every time I allow myself just to play, like I always rock myself anyway, which I think is just a, [00:30:00] it's a calming thing for my brain and I, I can, yeah, I have always been someone who, like, if I'm standing, you'll notice that I'm rocking backwards and forwards.

I've got a hammock outside for the same thing. Like that feels good in my body, but just playing on a yoga mat. So often just about breathing and moving like every way that my spine will move, because that's what feels good in my body at the moment. Whereas when I was doing, when I was being a good yoga teacher, you know, following the rules, it was all about sitting your ass down for at least 20 minutes of perfectly still meditation.

It was so deeply uncomfortable, but because it was what I was told was the thing to do, I was still trying to tick the boxes. Like that's just more control and more like. You know, and, and it's, um, really, if I'm truthful with myself, so many times I can look back at the systems I've tried to be a part of and just gone, it's more self abandonment.

Under a different name, you know, that's all it is, really. 

TJ Matton: Well, I also want, like, I want to bring a lens of compassion to that, right? Because, like, the purpose of our system doing self abandonment is to find belonging. Right? Like, so, I would also, like, really, like, offer some love to this part, in that, like, there was nothing, you weren't doing anything wrong in seeking belonging.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. And trusting 

Bailey Jacobs: a system that told you to trust it. 

TJ Matton: I know, right? Yeah. That told 

Bailey Jacobs: you there was going to be joy on the other side, right? Yes. That like, we got 

TJ Matton: you. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. We were trusting leaders and systems that everyone was telling you to trust, right? 

TJ Matton: Exactly. And again, like going back to that self monitoring, like at some point, your brain and your body and your heart were like, That doesn't feel right.

No. We started to find like the right risks out of these patterns and that was, that is truly what play does. Like at its, at its heart, play is the path [00:32:00] to, is the only path to building neural path, new neural pathways to learning new ways of living, new ways of being, new ways of behaving, new ways of connecting, right?

It is the new, right? And so all healing should be anchored in play. Every coach should be trained in play. Every therapist should be trained in play. Every person who is offering service to another that they hope will make that person feel better 

Kylie Patchett: Better, yeah. 

TJ Matton: should be, one, offering work that feels aligned in their own play 

Kylie Patchett: Yes.

TJ Matton: and brings the play forward in their clients because like our healing is not meant to be another form of torture. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

TJ Matton: That's like, it's like our system of oppression. Yeah. You know, like I, like, it's one of my goals that like my clients want to come to the work with me, you know, like, and that's a really important testament is that like, not every play date goes well, but like when you're in it and anchored in play, It's fine.

They get washed, right? Because like you're in it, you know, you don't win every game. You learn that kind of resiliency through play. Yeah. Um, 

Kylie Patchett: as you're talking about the neural pathways, that's like, it is the completely opposite idea to this idea that something needs to be fixed. Yeah. That is like, This is flawed.

We need to somehow change this. Whereas what you're, what the, the truth of what you're saying is that we're actually growing towards a different way of experiencing the world or like using that experiencing to, to create new. Ways of being, which I don't know, overall as you're talking like what I am feeling is this sense of like relief in my body.

Mm. Not like, oh, and this is something else to do. Yeah. I'm I'm curious for [00:34:00] both of you when, like, you talk about like, you've been in play for two years, Bailey like that, like what does it actually, and I know it is, it kind of sounds like I'm looking for the checkbox, but I'm, I'm curious. No, that's important to see, like how, what does it actually look like day to day of.

Because I, I feel like for me, especially like self care or self devotion, I don't know, like I, cause I've got a neuro sparkly brain as well. Like for me, sometimes like anchoring like habits on top of habits works because, you know, if I brush my teeth and I may as well work something else on it, but I've found myself.

You know, being quite, um, it's a transactional thing. It's like to feel good, I must do this and then this, and then this, and then this. And it's just like, oh, fuck, that's just more stuff to do. So I'm, I'm interested in the, the day to day reality of being in the play. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. Um, and so I'd say one thing that when reconnecting to that internal self, right, that self monitoring that feels good, right.

Um, Is also this reconnection of your own curiosity and kind of like this trusting of your impulses, right? So the play often starts at curiosity, right? It starts at the, Ooh, what would it be like if I did that? Yeah. Right. And it could be learning something new or it could be trying a new recipe, right?

That intriguing curiosity play a factor, right? So every day I feel like I am in diving into something that Um, gives that kind of, right. So there, there's that piece of like allowing my curiosity to be tended in a way where like it's never diminished. Right. So much of our time as adults, we're on autopilot, we're doing our routines.

We are going to work, we are coming home. Like there are like we are doing the chores. And what could I either stay curious about that I could see in a new way, right. [00:36:00] Yes. Or even being curious about. What would make me enjoy this moment more right bringing that intentionality, right? How could I enjoy folding the laundry more?

How could I you know the other day? I when I was folding a mountain of laundry TJ and I texted each other pictures of our mountains of laundry What is that about? When does 

TJ Matton: that finish? 

Bailey Jacobs: It doesn't. I'm 

TJ Matton: going to talk to that. 

Bailey Jacobs: It's never done, right? Um, and so I created, I created different rules for myself of like, um, for a while because it was so big, I had to create multiple rules because that's the other piece is learning when the play's done, right?

I created one where like I couldn't move my feet. I had, I was standing and I had to fold the laundry and like get it to its spot, only like moving my upper torso. But then that got a little boring, right? I like, I was like, okay, I need something new. Right? And so then I started dancing while I was doing it.

Right? And then I started, I, and then the third time, because it was that big of a pile of laundry, I needed three separate, like, play engagements to do it. 

Kylie Patchett: Right? The last one was 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, sitting and, like, really trying to stretch out my hamstrings, um, because we're sitting at a desk for 15 years. My hamstrings are, for my whole school as well, my hamstrings are very tight.

Uh, and so I was, like, then moving into the practice of, in my body, of, like, just trying to feel expansion while I was, while I was then folding the laundry, right? So it's that orientation towards joy. And then I kind of have my pillars of like things I might like that core play right that is my joy right and then making sure in some way I'm tending to that in some way.

Whether it be going outside on a walk to hit that exploration play right or trying a new recipe right really giving myself that time and space to be in a recipe as opposed to like. Cooking for my family, right? Like, allowing myself to be in it, right? Or, uh, I love doing watercolors, right? I love water I honestly I love watercoloring flowers.

Like, that's just what I love doing. I don't try and like, that's what that low sensory, low [00:38:00] input type like, play like, I I'm never trying to sell my watercolors or monetize them. I'm never trying to do other types of watercolors. I just fucking love Watercolor flowers. And so I'll just sit there and just do them, right?

Kylie Patchett: Yeah. 

Bailey Jacobs: And so it's again, like, a balance of, like, the curiosity and impulse. It's a balance of, like, orienting towards joy, right? Every day, what am I doing? Like, if I'm in a moment, my joy matters in any moment. That's what we try to, like, hit people with. Your joy matters. You deserve joy. You never don't 

TJ Matton: matter.

You never don't matter. 

Bailey Jacobs: Your experience of joy matters. And, like, so how can I, in my life, Orient towards my experience of joy. Um, and then also just going to my home base, right? That home base of joy as almost like a daily tending. That's where kind of the practice piece. Feels right of like a daily ritual.

Yeah. The ritual of those big, the bigger play that I know is that's my home, right? That's my sweet spot. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. And I think like kind of to pull on a couple of pieces we've talked about and like echo on this, like I have ritual practices, my, my daily ritual practices. I have to move every day, like water.

Right. And like, I just, I want to not be told what to do. I want the water to take me. I just want to feel yes. Like, I am so much water. Like, all I have to do is just be a water. Right? Like, and it's just this fucking delicious. And like, sometimes that's like, just like little, like, ripples and sometimes it's really big waves.

But every day, like, I have to move like water like, just to feel like Um, but I think one of the things that's really interesting is like we have this idea that like, oh, once I'm done with the chores, I can play and like, then you realize as an adult, like you're actually never done with the chores, right?

It's the same kind of framework as a kid. Like once you're done with your homework, you can go out and play, right? The way that we hold play as hostage, um, for perfectionism and performance. And so like one of the things that we really encourage people to do is actually add play, see if you can lighten.

Cause again, If we start to think [00:40:00] about chores actually as rituals, as rhythmic, that they're not finite games, they are actually more infinite games, then you can't get out of the game. You have to get in the game. Right? So, there's things like, you know, if you're brushing, and one of the, one of the on ramps we give people often is, are you a mind, heart, or body player?

So like we just take brushing our teeth, right? A mind mind play around brushing our teeth is like, can I really focus on like the details? Like every single freaking tooth, right? Like turn the brain on, count them, right? A heart player might be the fact that like. When we clean our mouth, we are actually doing incredible, like, cardiac health care, right?

This is our number, like, one of the number one ways to tend to our hearts and our bodies, right? Like, what is it like to, like, give my body this health? To give my body this, like, people aren't afraid to connect with me because, like, I don't Smell. Yeah, yeah. Right? Like. It's always a plus. Right? So like, there's a heart practice there.

Yes. Right? There's also a body practice. Like, can I wiggle? Yeah. Like, can I use my body to move my toothbrush? Like, can I be the electric force? Right? It's very funny. That Bailey created lots of games, right? One of the ways that you can also just kind of like lean into this like because we are very big advocates of not putting more on your plate, but playing where you already are.

Yes. Right? Play where you already are. Right? Like find the stuff that's mundane every day and like kind of take those risks of joy in the everyday. 

Kylie Patchett: Right? 

TJ Matton: Um, so like what is it like to actually like explore brushing your teeth when you cook? Like, are you excited about the ingredients in that intellectual way, right?

Are you excited about, like, what it means to cook a meal, right? Or do you, like, love to feel the heat, right? Do you want to feel the heat and, like, the, Oh! [00:42:00] Chop, chop, chop! You know, and the ump ump ump. Right? But, like, again, like, You know, you can think about your play in all these different personality ways, but like also one of the ways that we encourage people in cultivating play is like a mindful practice.

It's like taking it into your everyday, take yourself into your everyday activities and do them with either mind, body. Or heart play, like mind, heart, or body play, like, as your guide. Like, which one of those feels easiest turned on? Yes. Right? 

Bailey Jacobs: I like 

TJ Matton: that. That makes it so much easier than a list 

Kylie Patchett: to do.

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah, when you're going about your daily life, you're still, your brain is still engaged in some capacity. All the time. Um, maybe it's disengaged or annoyed or you have apathy, but like your engagement is still there. So how can you change your engagement and move it to a place of intrigue, curiosity, um, focus in a way that actually creates enjoyment, right?

That like will spur. Yeah. And 

TJ Matton: sometimes that's turning the body up, like turning the attention and the engagement up. And sometimes that's turning it down. Yeah. Right. Like shove your lawn, like, you know, make your laundry into like, just activate, like. Not caring as much, right? Like what's the light, like, what is the way that I could care the absolute least about this experience?

Like, you know, like, what is it like to be like Snow White who like just loves laundry, you know? Like, 

Kylie Patchett: I actually am one of those weird people that gets a kick out of folding laundry. So anytime you have a big pile. 

TJ Matton: Honestly, Kylie, that probably goes back to that, you know, the part of you that talked about how much you liked control, right?

Yeah. And again, like, These places where we pick up language that somebody has called us, like, we are so controlling, but actually, like, there is a part of your play that loves to be in control, right? That loves to feel the completion of laundry, that loves to feel the finiteness of it. Like, you probably, like, if I were to guess, like, you're somebody who enjoys folding and, like, a really [00:44:00] It's tactile, 

Bailey Jacobs: kinetic play.

Very much so. And no one else should do it for me. 

TJ Matton: Yeah, exactly. So that's a part of you, like, still cultivating kind of directorial play that, like, you were punished for at other phases in your life as calling it controlling. Right? And you're like, who cares? Yeah, exactly. Because I like to be in control of it.

And I actually enjoy it. It's not causing any harm. 

Kylie Patchett: There's something about the, yeah, there's something about the texture of, I'm so texture driven. Like, and especially if something's been, like in our summer, well, I mean, we always use our line, but you know, in our summer particularly, like there's something about the feel of a towel that's been out in the sun that like Australian sun is so harsh.

Yeah. That it just, it's a whole experience of the smell of the laundry and all of those things. And I love, I. Absolutely delight in an organized linen comfort. 

TJ Matton: Yeah, right? That actually makes me happy. That's beautiful, right? Yeah. And so I think this is a great, yeah, reclaiming that joy. 

Kylie Patchett: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

TJ Matton: You know, and I think this is what's so important. I'm so glad you're, like, we're talking about this and, like, this kind of, like, closing parts. Because, like, again, I don't want our message to land for people as, like, go do more. Yes. Right? Yeah. Stay where you are, stay where you are for right now, and see if what you can cultivate, because I promise it will grow, like I promise your sense of trust, your ability to read yourself, your ability to push yourself in the ways that matter to you will emerge, because play is contagious, it does not stay contained, like you are not, like, take your hands off the wheel, in a way, in a way, Right?

And so start where you already are and just like allow the play drive to reignite, to re emerge, and begin to cultivate that sense of trust that lives in play again. 

Kylie Patchett: I love this. It's been so helpful, um, for me to just Get clearer on different pieces of your message. And I want to, I feel [00:46:00] like to conclude, I really want to, so I remember when we, when we first met, you were talking about how, you know, reclaiming play and reclaiming joy is a revolution.

And I just want to come back to that. Like that is the key of everything we're talking about. Just like rest is revolutionary. Um, so. Both of you, whatever you would like to say about revolution and also how to find both of you and your work that you do in the world would be beautiful. 

TJ Matton: Yeah. I'll start so that you can close us with work stuff, babe.

Okay. Um, yeah. Um, I think I'm going to go back to that sentence like you never don't matter, right? Like you never don't matter. Like your joy, your sense of fulfillment is absolutely the essence of who you are. And what a gift you might bring to your, the people you love 

Kylie Patchett: if 

TJ Matton: you bring a more authentic and embodied version to them.

How much more your community is going to be served, your family will be served. Because again, play isn't, while we learn to cultivate play by ourselves, like in many ways, like, it is incredibly relational. Like, it is an act of love. And it will never stay contained just in your own being. It is an act of, like, You never matter.

I mean like you always matter. Yeah, and everybody always matters. Yes Right. So it really is this like we matter together. Yeah, we matter 

Kylie Patchett: And we, when, sorry, when we allow ourselves to matter by definition, that opens the door for us to allow everybody else. And just as we're talking like the so many, so much of what you're saying is just reminding me of that.

You know, the, the key thing that I'm always working with clients about is just like bringing your message and your magic to the world. And [00:48:00] it's in, it's the same essence. It's like the way that you experience things, the way that is important to you, the way that lights up your joy is going to be an individual experience.

But what we need to create a more healthy collective is more. You know, present, happy, fulfilled, juiced up humans, you know, overall, in connection. People who are 

TJ Matton: bringing their gifts to the world. Yeah. And 

Bailey Jacobs: we got to this place because we are, we are existing in a world that doesn't give a shit about our joy.

It doesn't give a shit, right? It cares about how much we produce. It cares if we procreate, right? It cares on how much we consume. But it does not, the world, capitalism, white supremacy, they do not care of About your joy, right? And it is a revolutionary act to step outside of that system and say my experience of joy matters, right?

To embody your joy, to trust and bring your joy out into a world that doesn't value it, right? But to hold it and claim the internal experience of your joy is Is that revolutionary step, right? And it allows us to create more authentic embodied connections. It allows us to bring our magic into the world.

Um, and the world desperately needs it. We desperately need this joy. We all do. Um, and, uh, we just want you to join our revolution. Yeah. 

Kylie Patchett: Aw, it's been so beautiful to spend time with you both. Can you tell people how to find you? I know that you have a couple of juicy, like, introductory, like, let's introduce to play.

As much as what we've spoken about here, um, how can we find that? Yeah, 

Bailey Jacobs: and so, you know, our website is ThePlayfulRevolution. com Um, where you, you know, we have a, we have an intro sequence, the story Kylie references in that, kind of our first batch of emails that orient you to our world. We call it our like, reprogramming, right?

Our reorientation to play. Because it is a whole, it's reprogramming your brain. Right. 

Kylie Patchett: [00:50:00] We're 

Bailey Jacobs: also on Instagram, obviously at the playful revolution. com or at the playful revolution. Um, and then, um, you know, we'll have our podcast. The play rebels is also a further orientation to our world, a way you can dive deep.

And we also have a new. We have a new tool that's pairing with that, um, that, that explores the play person, that the play styles that we talked about. Um, so we have a free tool that will be available for people to access as well that we're pretty excited. 

Kylie Patchett: Oh my goodness. I did not know that was in the work.

That's very cool. 

TJ Matton: Oh my gosh. It's so fun. We'll send it to you. Yeah. We actually, 

Bailey Jacobs: that'd be great. We're going to send it to you right now and you can try it. Oh, 

TJ Matton: yeah. Exciting. 

Bailey Jacobs: Yeah. And 

TJ Matton: we love to hear from people. We love to hear how this work resonates for people, like where it takes people in their work, where it takes people in their journeys.

We love to answer questions. We love to collaborate, you know, because Bailey and I, our work is so relationally driven. We really like to be in relationship with you, listener. So if you felt a single spark, it would be a joy to hear about it. It would make our light our lives up. 

Kylie Patchett: So important. I've been, um, on a little bit of a, well, since you and I, you and I were in the mastermind together, um, this crazy voice noting adventure on Instagram.

So actually talking human to human crazy and the deliciousness of those. Connections like really, really, and knowing, yeah, when something does resonate or, you know, just allowing people to ask questions and stuff and being in relationship. I'm like, wow, this really, I mean, we know this in real life. I don't know why social media has eked it out of us, but please do reach out to the beautiful Bailey and TJ and just, yeah, share, share what you, yeah, just.

And so many light bulbs have turned on for me in this conversation. I'm like, okay, I'm going to have to let this like settle into my, into my, um, and 

TJ Matton: also [00:52:00] understanding like play is iterative, right? Like we hear one thing and it like rose without our, like without us like needing to do much and, you know, and this will spark things for you.

It will spark things for others. And like, When you want another little boop, boop, like when you run into another set of questions, like we want to come back and answer them. 

Kylie Patchett: Yes. Well, I'm already thinking I want to actually, one thing that I'd really love to dive into, and we will have to book another time.

It's like the. When you were saying that play lives between like the, the spectrum that you just talked about in terms of like the heightened and then, and then the rest and digest, I'm like, that makes so much sense to me because I identify as being able to access play more readily in the heightened state, which is where I've lived in fight and flight.

TJ Matton: And neurodivergence live a little bit more in that heightened state. Correct. 

Kylie Patchett: Yes. And so the rest and digest that. Really like, can I really allow myself to just swing in a hammock and read a book? That feels very edgy. Exactly. And I find 

TJ Matton: like people who have neurodivergent histories like are like, oh my god, this is so relieving, just the same way that you felt and like the way that I felt finding it.

you know, and the way that like I've all of a sudden become like a great meditator as a result of breaking the rules. All right, we love you. Thank you so much. You're amazing. 

Kylie Patchett: Bye 

guys.

There you go beautiful one, another delicious, juicy, truth talking episode with a Disruptor, Rebel or Revolutionary sharing the identity shifts. And the mess and the magic of leading right on the edge of your expansion and going first as a visionary leader, as a woman creating a business, and inviting people to completely new ways of learning, living, loving, and leading.

It is not lost on me that [00:54:00] you have invested your time and your energy in listening to the show. I am so grateful for your beautiful heart, for the work that you do in the world, and I know that if you're here you are more than likely one of what I call the Mad Hatters. So the quirky, colourful, creative, out of the box, often neuro sparkly paradigm shifters and thought leaders.

So I'm so grateful that you're here. If you loved this episode, which I'm sure you did, please do me a favour and share it with someone else who needs to understand that their quirkiness and their full unapologetic self expression is more than enough, and in fact is the secret source to growing a wildly successful, abundant, nourishing, sustainable business.

So here is to us, the Mad Hatters. The crazy out of the box people saying no to old paradigms and inviting into the new. And if you'd love to go the extra mile, please make sure that you subscribe on the platform that you're on so you never miss an episode. And hey, it would be sweet, sweet, sweet if you would leave us a five star review.

It means the world to us and it helps us get this truth talk and this magic and this power out to even more Mad Hatters. So have a beautiful day and I will speak with you next week.