E12: Dancing, Creative Arts, Sports and Mental Health

I am joined by fellow PT and coaches, Jess and Charlie Warne. Both have a huge experience within the Dance and creative arts industry.

As a Dad of 2 girls, one of whom has started dance classes and shows...

We discuss the mental health considerations for parents and teens to be aware of. especially the links between poor body image and mental health/mental illnesses.

P.s I've recorded a webinar - how mothers can improve body confidence without losing weight which you can watch for free here:

https://youtu.be/X-eRCoSoKyM

Social Media/Other Links:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lifestylelegacygym
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/healthrevivalcoachben
Website: https://linktr.ee/lifestyle.legacy_ben

Transcript

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. Buzzing to be joined today by two ladies who are actually part of my amazing coaching team at our semi private gym facility in the northeast of the UK. Jess and Charlie Warren are sisters, as their surname suggests. Both are personal trainers and both have a lot of experience in the creative arts industry. And today we're going to delve into something that I've recently realized is far too common, which is the mental health considerations, especially for two groups. Not just the adults who might be listening, who might be struggling with their own mental health, poor body image through their experience in the creative arts, and then they might be able to understand where to potentially come from. And also some advice to help them. But also, and more importantly, especially for me with having two daughters, is getting some information and some advice and insight into how we can help our children avoid those same sort of struggles. So, Jess, Charlie, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker C: Hello.

Speaker A: Hi.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah, good.

Speaker B: So Jess is the oldest, and I'm going to ask Jess to go first. What age did you start dancing, Jess?

Speaker C: So I started dancing at four. So roundabout reception age, really, isn't it? Just starting school, so I was quite young and it was very quick. Started dancing competitively from the age of four as well, and we did lots of exams and that's kind of what my earliest memories are of dancing, like, kind of doing dancing competitions straight away, lots of exams, and it's quite full on from the start.

Speaker B: Even exams form five. Yeah, I've seen that first time with Lily, my eldest is five, and we've just had a message through from her dance company that she's got some rosette. Is it? Is that right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: You do your rosette, sir.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can see that starting. And how about you, Charlie?

Speaker A: I was actually two when I started, which sounds a bit mad, but I went into it because I was already there with my sister, so they were like, well, why don't you just join in? So I kind of took to it and just ended up dancing around anyway. So when I was two and then I started competing when I was three, I had my first solo, which was a song and dance, so Little Bo.

Speaker C: Peeper lost their sheep.

Speaker B: Both of you started from a very early age and sort of went into the more serious side of things pretty early as well, with the exams and the shores. I would imagine you started with shores and stuff as well, then.

Speaker C: Not so much, because you kind of got split off where there was a group that just did it for fun on a Friday night and then they do a showcase. But then with us, we were known as a competitive team, so we were literally just straight into competitions, most weekends, most school holidays, so we didn't really have time to do shows that much, to be honest.

Speaker B: And how did I go with you again, Jess, because you're oldest first, how did you find the instructors, the classes, the other dancers that were there? How did that sort of impact your body image? Probably you weren't aware of it when you were that age but progressing into, let's say your teens years and your young years.

Speaker C: So in terms of when I was really young, obviously it wasn't really kind of I mean, it was strict, everything was quite regimented. Like when we went to competitions, we all had to wear a uniform, have a certain look. It was very like pin bun heads and everything like that in terms of like you were representing your school, therefore and that was from the age of four. We were very much made aware that we had a reputation or appalled and it was kind of quite strict in that sense. In terms of body image, that kind of just doesn't really start until really when you were a teenager and to be fair with dance instructors at dance school before went off to kind of dance college and that kind of thing, it wasn't really a certain look that they would kind of go for. It wasn't really pressurized to lose weight or anything like that. I think it was more like as a teenager, you kind of have doubts about your body image anyway, and I think it was more within other I'd say it was within other peers as dancers. Isn't it like comparing yourself to other kids at that age? And also some parents I would even say were very honor the kids, which was not very nice to say about weight and things like that. And obviously you witnessed that when you were a child as well. I mean, our mom was really supportive like that at all. But you watch other parents do that with their kids, which was quite not great to say. Doesn't set a good example either.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. How about you, Charlie?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think the same.

Speaker C: It wasn't really a thing that you'd think about, really, when you're that young.

Speaker A: And it was more when we went away to dance college was when it kind of became a thing of and even, like jesse and about parents, I don't think I was like I think back now, and I think, oh, God, I've just realized that they were actually going on at that person. But at the time I don't think I realized it and like I say, our mom was sound was a ****. It was never really a thing of oh, you have to eat certain things. And to be fair, it went like an unfit household. Like food wise, though, so it wasn't.

Speaker C: Like yeah, I think I remember once being at dancing and honestly, there was nothing on this girl, bless her, and she was eating a Mars Bar or something. And bear in mind, like, Mars Bars quick when you're doing that much exercise. You need fuel anyway. Yes, exactly. Do you know what I mean? And I remember one of our parents was like, oh, I think you should lay off, then you'll get fat and things like that. Yeah, it's not good.

Speaker B: So if we skip on then to dance college, how does that compare? And if we're talking about impact on body image, did it impact how you diet and nutrition wise?

Speaker C: 100%, both of us, really. I mean, obviously we went off to dance college and we were 18, so obviously classed as an adult, but still teenager still. I think you're still not sure of yourself at 18 years of age, by any means. Basically, I remember I'd been there three months and it was so I started in September and we went home for Christmas and got three week break. And I remember before we broke up, we got given a food diary and also an alternative dancers Christmas dinner of what you can eat instead of a normal Christmas dinner that was less calorific. And this list, I wish I had kept it. I don't know where it is now, but you probably know the email somewhere, probably bend. It didn't take any notice of that, but it was like no pigs and blankets, no Yorkshire puddings, no stuffing, it was just basically like veg and meat.

Speaker A: And you were allowed a bit of gravy.

Speaker C: It was so ridiculous. And that is literally as soon as.

Speaker B: I started dance college and obviously you're saying that you didn't take any notice, which is great, probably because you had better counsel in your house about it. But how many of the girls, boys even, do you think 100% follow?

Speaker C: A lot. And even my housemate, she had suffered with bulimia as well throughout my three years at dance college, and that was really hard to watch when you're living with someone who's got an eating disorder. And I remember at dance college, they didn't really offer any help or advice for her and it was a case of she'd got so thin towards the end of the summer show when obviously parents would be coming to watch that. They just said, if you don't put on X amount of weight in the two weeks, I mean, they give her two weeks, which is ridiculous in itself. You won't be able to do the dance show because you're going to make our image look bad, essentially. And it was just obviously an eating disorder isn't just physical, it's mental. And it starts with making yourself better mentally and there was no support mentally for it.

Speaker B: It was awful until that point where they were panicking because it was coming towards them, being put on a pedestal in front of all the parents. Was the no there for her at all?

Speaker C: No, it's very much like they'll say.

Speaker A: Do this, do XYZ, but there's no actual guidance towards it. I did really stupid things and I look back now and I think, why did I do that to myself? Like, things like when you go weight at dance college, you do things like paddedo with, which is all like the guys lifting the girls and you have to be a certain weight. And if you clustered overweight in their eyes, you have to sit out and watch. So I had a friend, Jade, who bless her, that you think back now and you just think, well, she just looked normal, like, whatever normal is, but she wasn't overweight or anything like that. But you felt for her because you'd be dancing and she just used to have to sit and watch. And if that was me as well, I'd be saying, I'm not paying all this money to sit and watch. But like, things like that. Just remember doing silly diets. Like, I liquidized my diet when I was away at dance college because you're spending so much time in front of a mirror that you do end up just tearing strips off yourself. I think I lost two stone in three weeks because I just liquidized and I was doing like 14 hours, days of training and that's all I was eating. I had no energy and it wasn't going to be sustainable whatsoever. But I just was fed up with just looking at myself in the mirror and for that many hours and just hating myself. Chorus stupid stuff.

Speaker B: Do you feel like at that time then, the culture sort of perceived some sort of norm that you're supposed to fit into, to be in that industry 100%?

Speaker C: I mean, after you graduate from dance college, obviously you're out auditioning.

Speaker A: Sorry, on.

Speaker C: Your CV, and you've got, like, you have to put your dress size, your height, your weight. Like, I call that's all presented to someone before you even get accepted for a job. And so they were like, very much like, you need to be like a size six or an eight, otherwise you're not going to get a job.

Speaker B: You could have been the best dancer in that college or whatever and graduated and still just purely because the way that you looked, your size or a number on the scales could have just held you back completely.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I was having this discussion with someone. I don't know whether anyone's watched Hairspray before, but the character Tracy Dan Blood, I went for an audition for that role and she's classed as what is like a plus size woman in the castability role. So a part of me was like, oh my God, that's amazing. Why wouldn't I want to play this role? She's a great person and just owens I was going to swear there, but yeah, but then a part of me was like, oh, so is that my castability now? Am I just going for like, plus size role? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but in my head I was like, oh, so am I overweight for my age? Like, all of that sort of stuff. And I'm thinking to myself, I think.

Speaker C: Back now, why did you even think.

Speaker A: That that would have been an amazing role to do? There's nothing wrong with it whatsoever, but it's just those thoughts in your head. You just think like, oh, great, I'm like you just do. You have those thoughts because it's presented to you.

Speaker B: Yeah. So would you both agree that especially through college, and we'll get into what happened after college, but that the industry that you were in or the college that you were in, the creative art side of things negatively impacted your body image, and then this therefore then affected your behaviors around nutrition and exercise hundreds.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: You touched on there little bit about some of the diets that you've done. Liquid dies. And did you see a cereal diet there? Did I hear you mentioned? Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think I was still lived on wheat eggs for about, like, a couple of months.

Speaker C: I went on that ridiculous. I don't know if you've heard of it. Is it the booty or booty that you get at Holland and Barracks? Yeah, I went on that for 30 days. Obviously still doing a ridiculous amount of exercise at dance college and running to the toilet. Do you want to give too much information there? But it's ridiculous. And also, I remember my ballet teacher saying that we needed to cut out sugar from our diet.

Speaker A: You need sugar in your diet.

Speaker B: So that sort of time was, what, 8019?

Speaker A: Yes. I was on a food like, tracker, so I had to write down everything I ate and hand it into a tutor every single week. But even when I did hand it in, there was no, like, oh, well, this is right, this is wrong. It was just like, all right, okay.

Speaker B: There was no actual guidance there or anything reasoning behind why they were even doing it, to be honest. Coming out of college into your young adulthood, can you recall any specific moments in your experiences after that that, again, just drove home this poor body image because of what you were doing and the type of industry that you were working in?

Speaker C: Well, obviously, auditioning in general for jobs, you'd find you'd have the loveliest technique in the room, and you'd be really going for gold. And then they'd pick someone who maybe looks wise, didn't have the best technique as a dancer in themselves, but was a size, like, four or six, painfully thin and almost like they like, I know this sounds awful, but they like a child sized body on an adult on a woman, which isn't right anyway. And you'd feel so deflated because you'd think it's not even about the dancing anymore. This is just like an attack on how you look. And it's so soul striking every time, just getting cooked and cut by round flies, and you make the effort to travel in the central London every morning and go through 200 girls. And it was so trying.

Speaker A: A lot of it for me was in audition, they used to go, Charlie.

Speaker C: Why don't you just go for the singing roles?

Speaker A: And I'd be like, look for no one dance.

Speaker C: And they were like, yeah, well, you don't really have the right size body.

Speaker A: Or the look that we're looking for, for the dancers. So if you just want to go for the singing roles. And I was like, right, okay. It's a very yes, like you said, a very yes industry. And I think from a young age, that's what we got taught just everything.

Speaker C: Which is not good either.

Speaker A: It's not obviously, I think there's this.

Speaker C: Fear as well, the cancel culture, that's a massive fear in dancing. If you say no, then this choreographer knows this choreographer, and then they're going to talk, and then you're just a graduate, so say yes to everything, because you're not in the position to say no to anything. And really, this is your body, your mental health, it's your life.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: They just don't really care about it all. I think, as well, when I started, I got a job on the ship and I dropped a lot of weight, actually, for it. I was I think you were a size six, and I'm five foot seven, so there's no way in hell I should be a size six dress size. And I just didn't look well.

Speaker A: You did.

Speaker C: And basically, I remember part of way through my contract when I lost all this weight, it was very much getting praised for losing weight and all. You look amazing, Jess. And I knew I looked like ****. And I was doing three shows a day and still being told that I had to go to the gym and do some more work from it to get the weight off. And I think we were all put on Weight Warning as well. And Weight Watch.

Speaker B: Weight Warning. Wow.

Speaker C: Weight Warning and Weight Watch. So we were warned and then we were told we'd be on Weight Watch until we were at an acceptable weight.

Speaker A: But the acceptable weight was just ridiculous.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Wasn't normal.

Speaker C: And then it's like you're surprised that people don't have the insults, but I think what really annoyed me was obviously Warner Ship. So the food you'd get was limited, and everything they were offering was just calf. There was carbs, there was no veg, there was no fresh food, there was no great sources of protein. So it's like, you're telling me to lose all this weight, I have no source of good nutrition food wise. I have no energy.

Speaker A: It was just ridiculous.

Speaker B: They're reinforcing your already destructive behaviors around diet and then food and exercise because of where you've been previous years around your body image, and they're praising that when you're losing weight, which is just reinforcing all these behaviors to you. To then think that it's good because it's building up your self worth, because you're getting that praise, but actually just completely disregarding your overall health. And for anybody listening out there when we're talking about health, I think a lot of people get this mixed up, especially in the industry of health and fitness, thinking that weight loss, fat loss is always healthy, where you just give a clear example of where somebody's trying to reinforce this behavior, and it's clearly not healthy at all, physically, mentally or socially. Would you agree?

Speaker C: Yeah, I felt like my moods were really erratic as well when I was on there. I mean, I talked part of it was cabin fever, but I was just tired. I was hungry all the time. I was angry, I was hungry. It had a massive effect. I was probably not on the nicest person to be around, to be honest.

Speaker A: I'm just glad I wasn't on the ship.

Speaker C: It doesn't affect you as a person and your personality as well.

Speaker A: I find traits from it going into exercise. I remember when I joined Ben, I wasn't a coach, I was a client first. And how harsh I was on myself with everything. I still do sometimes. Just can't really snap out of that frame of mind because it's just what I'm so used to. This is where it kind of stems from and where it comes from because that's just all I've kind of known. So when it comes to getting a certain goal or something like that, I don't think I'm competitive with other people, but I'm very competitive with myself. Maybe a bit too competitive.

Speaker C: I think the fact that you can recognize it now is a good thing, or whereas I think five years ago you wouldn't be able to recognize I would even say like a year ago you might not have even I was.

Speaker A: Always right, always 100%.

Speaker B: I've seen a massive, massive change in that. But it's something that you've had to work towards that will sort of take us on to my next question for both of you. Now, when you're mid to late, can I say that, Jess?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Late.

Speaker B: Mid to late twenty s. So a little bit further on. What sort of steps do you feel like you've taken to improve your body image?

Speaker C: I think accepting that there isn't a perfect body image and there's a natural look for your body as a person, you should not force yourself to be something that your body was not meant to look like, in a sense. And I think basically not looking at the scales, things like that. The only time I went, I know my weight now because I've just had a doctor's appointment, they chose to weigh me. But that is the only reason why I know my weight currently. But I think I was so obsessed about my weight and things, and I'm now not looking at that and kind of looking at energy levels and how I feel rather than anything else.

Speaker A: I'd say, all that sort of stuff.

Speaker C: And I think going in a gym instructor was a massive shock for me because I never did weights, because we were little cardio bunnies, trying to lose so much weight and all the time. And I think it's really educated me on how, obviously, resistant training, being strong, is actually a quality that you'd like, that's healthy for you, not being sticks in and barely being able to shop and do you know what I mean? For functional movement, you need strength. Yeah.

Speaker A: I put off becoming a gym instructor and pay tape for so long because I didn't feel confident. I don't really know. I think back and I think, oh, my God, I didn't know anything.

Speaker C: No, I mean, we were definitely and I'm sure a lot of people fall under this, where we thought if he did wait, he'd like, look the next bodybuilder.

Speaker A: And now I think, oh, my God, I wouldn't not do my three strength sessions a week now because it's just silly, isn't it? Like, you think, oh, my gosh, and.

Speaker C: We do not look like bodybuilders.

Speaker B: For you. Charlie, obviously you came through the program process, and when you first came in, like you said, they touched on not really fully pushing yourself in strength side of things, still having the sort of negative self talk around how you're doing. But one of the biggest flips for you, we'd probably agree, is that you just focused on your performance rather than what your body can do, rather than just looks and number on the scales.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Again, same as my sister, I don't weigh myself unless it's like once in a blue moon. Really, I don't. It's just how I feel. How I feel that they take each day as it comes and I focus more on what I can do while I'm working out how I feel, how strong I feel, how much sleep I've had. I can tell if I've had a drink or something.

Speaker C: I think when it comes to nutrition as well, knowing that there's no bad foods, I mean, we've gone from an experience where we've had ballet teachers say, don't eat any sugar. Well, actually, I quite like chocolate. I eat everything now and makes me very happy. It is a happy life to live.

Speaker A: When you're eating food.

Speaker B: That's obviously one of our key goals now with everybody who we coach is food, freedom and getting away from these restrictions with nutrition. But I think one of the big links that people miss out when they're just trying to change nutrition, if anybody's listening to this, and you might have tried to change your nutrition habits, you haven't actually delved into the root cause of the problem as to why it's not happening. Because you've got such a poor body image. How you perceive the way you look, how you think others think you look. This actually then has a massive link and filters into the way and the choices and behaviors of how you eat. So for both of you, you've improved your body image, you've changed the way you think about it, that's then filtered down into your behaviors around your nutrition as well and your exercise.

Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like I've dropped a ton of those mental things in the past year and a bit just because being a client based, actually, I was learning, I was understanding and I was getting literally taught step by step, like how easy it was. And I think just being actually becoming realistic with everything, with my mindset, my body and just life, I feel like I used to care so much and it used to take up so much energy. And I think back now and I think for what? Actually? For what?

Speaker C: You've got to set a standard and example to your clients as well. And we want to live by the ethos of lifestyle legacy, being a real person. Yeah, because we're working with real people. We're working with everyone's. This is real life. Everyone's different.

Speaker A: Everyone's got different bodies, different ages, and it's just like one week, you might have an absolute rubbish, but then you might have an absolute stormer of a week the next week. And that's just life.

Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. And I think it's great that you can both relate to all of the people that we coach and I can as well. I've struggled with poor body images as I've been younger. When I first qualified as a PT, I always thought that to be in the industry and somebody who was successful, you had to be this shredded bodybuilder. And I've had comments so many times on social media, you don't deserve to be a PT, you're not massive, you're not muscular enough. And it's like trying to change all of those things and overcome those things, which I've worked on just as much as you have as well. But more experiences we can then pass on to everybody that we work with. And I think it's important, it'll be good to hear, if you still agree, still going to have days where you have poor body image days and that's 100% you're going to have those days. But it's just using the tools and the mindsets that have helped to just accept that that's going to happen sometimes and try and focus on other things that your body can still do and then just try and snap out that quicker than what you would have in the past.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, we all have our.

Speaker A: Days where we think, oh God, I went out yesterday and I think I must have tried on about 15 different outfits and then in the end, I ended up going in a top and jeans, but I was like, you know what, this is what it is.

Speaker B: And you know what is though? That's a big point as well. That just wearing clothes that you're comfortable in. Not thinking have to be in certain clothing or fitting into a certain size. Because even if you might have done in the past, just wear what you're comfortable and wearing right now and it's just going to make everything so much easier. Those 15 out just be two or three.

Speaker A: Yeah, I still need to tighten them up, actually.

Speaker B: What would you say to any parents or teens even who were in a similar position to where you were?

Speaker A: I think this is a big one for me. Sorry, I'm going to dive in there. I'm obviously still involved within the dance stuff because I teach dance to kids and teens. I do it because I never lost love of dance and performing and getting to do that because that was my thing and I loved it. The only thing that I lost love with was the industry itself because of all of those toxic things that was going on. So it's really hard because the kids that are trained are generally the kids that do want to go off to dance college and go out into those places. So the only thing that I keep telling myself is I can only be as real as I can with them because we do have kids with eating disorders already. I think it's so hard to be a teen in this generation.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: I think social media doesn't have it's so bad. I can only do like I'm not gonna I can only say it's not all sunshine and rainbows because it's not. And going away, especially at 18, you are still your class as an adult, but you are still a child. So you have to be so headstrong and so in a place of being okay within yourself.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think for teens, it's do what's right for you and don't it's really hard when you're a teenager, though, because we're all and don't look at everyone else and think, I need to say like that because you your own individual person. And I think as well, in terms of parents, I think be careful what you say because little ears or teenage years, you are a role model. And also, even if you're saying it to your kids, you notice the kids around you as well. Because obviously I've got memories of that whole milestone incident with me and that's down to a parent, not my own, but another parent.

Speaker A: When I'm around these kids and trying to be inspiring. And I can't say it's all doom and gloom because it's not like I did also love my time at college and I wouldn't have changed it. I still love the craft and what it actually is and what the feeling that I get when I do it. And I see these kids and they are happy, like doing what they're doing because they're in a safe place. Because I create what I like to think is a safe place. For them, but it's when they actually go out there, it can be a bit scary. But if I can be as real as possible and really just transparent with them and just say a look, which I think I am, then educating them.

Speaker C: As well before they go off to dance college. Educating them around nutrition and showing them that food is a fuel for what you want to do. You can't be the best dancer you want to be if you've not got fuel and you need your carbs, you need your fats, you need your proteins, if you take any of that away, you can't perform the best that your body is able to perform. And why would you not want to do that when you're doing such a physical job in itself?

Speaker A: We always said that and I still believe this, and she's my boss now, so I'm going to have to do the right thing.

Speaker C: I always believe that.

Speaker A: We always said Wadan's teacher was so strict for a reason, because she knew what it was like in the real world out there when we got older. So the quicker that we learned that, then the more prepared to work for.

Speaker C: It, her competitive route and wanted as a career, she took that serious seriously and it's sad that she had to do that because of what the industry is like, to be fair.

Speaker B: So I think the main thing is that they can be amazing dancers. They can perform at their best regardless of how they look, what size they are, and also, like you touched on there just that how they fuel themselves, that's going to impact their performance. Again, it's all linking everything around performance rather than looks.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's key because that's what they do it for. They do it for performance. They do it to be a dancer. I don't think anyone's going to remember us like, oh, can you remember that dancer who was a size eight? Did they even know I was a size eight on a size six?

Speaker A: No.

Speaker C: They'd be like, oh, that was a lovely show. I love the costumes, I love the dance. No one goes and it will show and comes out at Theater Island thinks, oh, well, that was a lovely range of dancers at size ten and eight. It's not normal, I think, from parents.

Speaker A: Obviously, if you wanted to get your kids into dance, just if they're happy and they enjoy it, then go for it. And if they do want to go down, that kind of competitive sort of stuff, it's like any competitive sport.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You have to put the hours in, you have to do and as long as you're very realistic with it and just make sure you're doing what you can to do it in a healthy way and just have that support network. If you can have that support network, that's half the battle. Because, like you say, when we were away, and we didn't really have that guidance. It's a bit like and you think you look back now and you're like, oh, I wish. I'd just yeah.

Speaker C: And I think in terms of parenting as well, look out for signs of what eating disorder, or if your child comes to you and says, I look too big and they saw actually have a conversation about it, don't just let them fester and then be like, well, why are you not eating your pudding today? Well, I can't because well, actually, this has got some your pudding is going to give you fuel for dancing. There's actually such thing as having good fats and encouraging that you need sugar as fuel as well and go down that route.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're right. I think it's a huge thing, education, for the parent side of things, especially for me. Like, it's something obviously my eldest into now. She absolutely loves it. I don't want her to be put off by it and I don't want it to feel well, I obviously don't want it to go down the poor mental health, mental illness route side of things as a parent. And to other parents, it's education. Changing the way that we speak to them, changing what they hear, looking out for the warning signs like you've touched on there and just actually speaking about it. Like, everything that we speak about with mental health, it's okay to talk. Like, we need to engage in more conversation stations around it before it gets to a point where it becomes a big, big problem.

Speaker C: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker B: Brill well, thank you very much, Jess. Charlie, that has been fantastic. I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thanks.