Insights@Questrom Podcast

Unleashing the Power of Discovery in Leadership and Organizational Change

• Boston University Questrom School of Business

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Discover innovation in leadership and organizational change with Professor Emerita Karen Golden-Biddle as we explore her upcoming book, “The Untapped Power of Discovery”. This episode promises to challenge your perceptions, revealing that discovery isn't just for the chosen few—it's a creative endeavor we can all partake in. Karen shares astonishing real-world examples, like Intuit’s revelations from Quicken usage, to illustrate how discovery is not merely an outcome but a journey that can lead to profound insights and inspire better futures.

Step into a masterclass on cultural change, as we dissect Hirschman's concepts of voice, exit, and loyalty through Karen's personal factory anecdotes and a case study of healthcare transformation. For leaders eager to foster a culture of inquiry and navigate the complexities of strategic planning, Karen offers actionable steps and practical exercises, such as the benefits of maintaining a 'surprise journal.' This conversation is an invitation to engage with genuine curiosity, embrace the unexpected, and collectively step into the unknown, equipped with the tools to turn doubt into a catalyst for growth and learning.

Preorder "The Untapped Power of Discovery" by Karen Golden-Biddle here. Explore her website karengolden-biddle.com for insights, resources, and more. Uncover transformative strategies for embracing curiosity and driving positive change in your organization. 

J.P. Matychak:

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Insights at Questrom podcast. I'm JP Matychak and alongside me today is Insights at Questrom contributor Shannon Light. This episode is the first to feature our new podcast segment, the Questrom Book Club, where we feature Questrom authors and their new books. I know that Shannon and I are both excited about our first featured author.

J.P. Matychak:

Karen Golden-Biddle is Professor Emerita in Management and Organizations at Questrom School of Business, and Karen conducts research in the areas of cultural change and qualitative methodology. She's published numerous books and authored more than 60 articles in book chapters in management journals such as the Academy of Management Journal and Organization Science. She's received a number of awards for her research, including her recent induction as a Fellow in the Academy of Management. Her new book is titled the Untapped Power of Discovery how to Create Change that Inspires a Better Future. It's a unique guide that helps leaders at all levels and in all types of organizations learn the overlooked practice of discovery, a vital and ongoing process that generates the insight and "ahas that fuel the creation of desired new features or new futures. Sorry, here to talk about her findings is Karen Goldenbittle. Karen, welcome to the show.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Thank you for having me JP.

J.P. Matychak:

Excellent. So let's start off with the big picture and let's talk a little bit about what is discovery. And in your book you talk about discovery. So what do you mean by discovery?

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So, yes, that is an important question and most people think. I'll start with most people and what they think about discovery. I mean, you Google discovery, for example, and what you find that comes up is Discovery Channel or it's the discovery show you know those kinds of things around that or a legal process of discovery, right, you don't see discovery as a process. Similarly, when we think of discovery, people think of discovery. We think of it as maybe Columbus discovers America, or the scientific breakthrough, the new vaccines that were recently discovered, breakthrough kinds of things.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So it's really the outcome, that is, it's the deliverable goal, is what we think of discovery as, and that really short circuits the power of discovery?

Karen Golden-Biddle:

To think of it only as the outcome. First of all, we think of it as happening only with the talented individuals that are able to do this, the geniuses, and we totally bypass the process. How does discovery happen? Discovery is a process, not only an outcome. So, as a process, that's where we tap its power, and so that's one of the myths that we have that prevent us from really accessing the power of discovery, and I'll get to it. But it is a really a creative process of inquiry that generates insights and a haze that lead to then novel solutions to situations that upend our beliefs that are upending unsettling. So a second reason that we don't often think of discovery as a process follows from the first, which the outcome? It's that we believe we have certain beliefs about who can do discovery, and I just hinted at that. But it's the scientists, it's the experts, it's the product designers. You know, it's those delegated or designated to do discovery.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

We don't think of the possibility, which is true, that anyone can do discovery Right, so the broadening of that that everyone can. And then, finally, I think we haven't looked at discovery as a process, because discovery involves going into the unknown. We have to not know things in order to discover, and so going into the unknown is uncomfortable for us humans.

J.P. Matychak:

Scary too. It's very scary.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Very scary. I mean, you think about leaders who are faced with this, who really naturally have discomfort engaging with others in a process with an uncertain outcome. Whoa, you know that is really different than controlling. You know, we try to control outcomes with task forces and others by being very clear about what the deliverable is. Discovery asks us to engage in a very different way. We are taught to know. We're not taught how not to know, and so all of that is the learning that goes with discovery. So discovery, then, is a process of generating these insights and haas new ideas that really come in response to surprises or unexpected situations. So surprise, really, the experience really teaches us by means of surprise. We kind of get kind of held into, like what's going on here, right? So that's where discovery starts. So we're going to go more into that, but it's a process that's the key thing that anyone can cultivate this practice of being able to do discovery, and it just needs some knowledge and comfort in engaging the unknown.

Shannon Light:

How would you say? Discovery is underutilized for human growth and development.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Well, it really. It's underutilized because of what I just said. Right, but we miss opportunities every day to capitalize on discovery. We think about things such as how could I have missed that, or that was something I should have seen coming right. Those are indicators that we've missed discovery, and so those are the ways that we underutilize it. We just don't know to even look for that or we dismiss them. Right, we will ignore them or explain them away with that. I mean, there is an example.

J.P. Matychak:

Maybe I could share an example of discovery at this point.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

And it's a fun little example. I have a couple of them. In fact, I've got dozens of stories in the book about this that all show how leaders build the capacity for discovery to do this. But one is an old story but really valuable for understanding discovery, and that is from Intuit. Intuit is a US multinational company specializing in financial software. Scott Cook is the CEO.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

You may or may not have heard of this story, but when the team launched Quicken, their home product for financial work, they decided to survey and this was decades ago at this point, but the learning process and the discovery process has gone on for decades for them. They surveyed customers to learn who was using their software, natural thing to do. One of those items that they surveyed them about was where they used Quicken. About half of them replied that they used it at work. No, it's a home financial product. All of a sudden, half of them are using it at work. That was unexpected right for Scott Cook and his team. In fact, I have a quote here from him, his response quote that's weird. We built a home product. They're probably just taking their bills into the office because they don't have a computer at home.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Now that's an example of how we underutilized discovery. We explain it away. Right, so he is explaining it away. There's a surprise in front of him. Rather than moving in to explore it, he says, oh no, that must be the explanation for it. So they didn't think more about it until follow-up surveys showed the same statistic About half used Quicken at work. He said quote it made no sense. We ignored it. I ignored it. A few years passed, the still unexpected, yet now persistent survey response. Right, it wasn't going to go away, but it's a nag at Cook why he asked are people answering this question wrong?

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So, what he did. Oh, we know that there are at least three ways people dismiss discovery underutilize it, they ignore clues to it, they explain it away and we even censor it, like he's saying it's wrong. It's the wrong idea, right? So, in spite of evidence to the contrary, the team still couldn't let go of their belief that the customers use Quicken at home, not at the office, that they should have done this. So I would say at this point, they launched the discovery process. They then said, ok, we're going to take surprise. And so, basically, they decided to go to their customers' workplaces to observe what they were doing. And every time we can go to the site of implementation or the site of the difficulties, we are better off with discovery right. We will be able to see what we weren't able to see. So, basically, they went and they discovered a practice quote they had never imagined, surprising.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

They had never imagined Customers were using Quicken to keep books for their small businesses. Oh, wow so it wasn't like they were bringing their home stuff into the work. They were actually using them for their home businesses. That's when Cook and his team realized that their belief that the only way to keep written records of business finances is to use formal accounting methods, even in small businesses, was wrong, right. So we often find with a surprise that something about our assumptions or our beliefs and I'm not using beliefs in terms of religion- or political but these are beliefs about how you manage people.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

You know everything in the daily operations that it was wrong, so they had to really deal with that, he said, and it clashed. So it clashed. They were able to see it because they went to the site and they were able to say, okay, this is our. They knew their belief, but all of a sudden the people were doing something very counter to what they had expected to see. And that's really what you want with discovery you want to be able to see beyond your expectations, so you create situations to help make that happen. So Cook said they realized quote something else was true, different from our beliefs. And that's where the not knowing comes in, the admitting that we didn't know right is a big thing.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So that in turn led to the development of QuickBooks, which remains the company's major product, and they never would have discovered that new product without having gone through the discovery process. So Cook in years later said quote only these are his words only when we started focusing on the surprise even savoring the surprise I love that phrase Did we discover this giant market opportunity. Wow. So that shows how they could have continued to underutilize discovery by either ignoring it or explaining it away, or censoring it, new ideas and things like that, but they didn't. After years they finally came and now they built it into their culture.

J.P. Matychak:

So, picking up on this theme, of these unexpected situations that come up, you said that it wasn't until they embraced the surprise, if you will, that they were really able to go into these new areas of innovation. You talked about people explaining it away and everything. Are there other contributing factors to what is going on in an organization that stops that discovery process?

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Yes, so really I'm thinking of discovery now with the dozens of stories, like I've done, inductive analyses of these dozens of stories many of them that I've done through field research, but also through archival documentation and interviews and things.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So basically, there's the discovery cycle that I just talked about, which is you have your original belief, what that is Like. They had this belief about what the customers did. You go through surprise doubt, genuine doubt, not self-doubt when we can talk about the difference there, self-genuine doubt. And then they launched these new ways, which is their new product. That's what I'm thinking of. I've called the discovery cycle. For that to work, it needs two things. One is confident humility on the part of leaders, and so confident humility is the ability, the ability to say you're wrong or I don't know, and so it means I think of it. Carl Weich said this I argue as if you're right and listen as if you're wrong.

J.P. Matychak:

Oh.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So you hold both. You need to be able to entertain not only what you know but what you don't know, and those two need to be kept in tension with each other so that you're able to hear what goes against the grain for you and entertain it. You may or may not accept it down the road, but you need to hear it and really listen to it and engage it. Engage it, not just give it airtime and then otherwise you're held captive by your beliefs.

J.P. Matychak:

Right, right, yeah, you almost listen. You listen for things that go against your belief so that you could make your case more.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Exactly.

J.P. Matychak:

Rather than saying like I could be wrong. So let me listen here as if I am and I might hear something new.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Well said, yes, exactly that is powerful.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

It's very and then the second thing that needs to happen is respectful engagement. For that, and every one of these cases had that and I said it's more than three dozen cases and basically the respectful engagement this is from research by Jane Dutton, ashley Harden and our Mel Carmely number of studies. That you work, it's empathic, listening, I think, is a way to think about it. You work with others in a way that conveys a sense of presence, worth and positive regard, and so you treat. You often have broad stakeholder groups coming together in the discovery efforts and you treat everyone regardless of their position or where they stand or those kinds of things. You're there for a reason and everyone has the potential to bring forward a new idea that makes a big difference. So that's, it's those things, jp, that it's that triad kind of thing to cycle, the respectful engagement and confident humility.

J.P. Matychak:

Wow, that's great.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

I like that confident humility.

J.P. Matychak:

I wrote that down. That's a great, great phrase.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Yeah, it's recently come out and it really in the midst of my research. I was like, well, this is, it's a no. I've been reading you know, knowing and not knowing and the balance of those, but that didn't capture it as much. This confident humility is is just a nice phrase, nice phrase.

Shannon Light:

But Congress, or that point about you know not truly listening to the other side it made me think of and I know it spoke with about this a little bit with you about your comment that stuck with me when you were asked about your experience working at a factory during college and you shared that when organizations have systems or processes or behaviors that consider employees to simply be part of a machine, with no valuable input, they'll opt out or leave. Managers should be capitalizing on people's talent, not on how many of something they can produce in an hour. Human beings are more complex and creative than that. So that point about really not truly listening, I wonder, through your research, if you observed a connection between the discovery process and when that is limited, and retention of employees and the effect there.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Yeah, so there are other researchers who demonstrated the connection Jim Dieter and others who have demonstrated the connection between the lack of input and turnover or opting out even though they stay in the job, right I mean. So there's those voice exit and loyalty is something that Hirschman talked about a long time ago. You can either voice dissatisfaction, exit, or have loyalty and and just go along with things. Right, but I I want to go to the summer in the factory, actually, because I think that's the origin of the book years ago. Actually, I work summers during college in a factory from 7am to 3.18pm.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

On the dot On the dot, with a short break and lunch of 20 minutes. So that's, that's basically. And I inspected rubber molded products and I was on a line, not a conveyor line, but a line which had our own set for that day to to inspect and could get more boxes, and we could get up and do those things. And then at break time we would talk. And there were a number of times that we spoke about what. It's not just input, like we weren't saying what we liked or didn't like about the place, because it was pretty well run, I mean, it's clean and everything. There wasn't anything, but what we did was to say there are a number of ideas that we have to improve, how the work is organized, you know, just a variety of things that we would talk about and we never got the sense. We tried once about sharing new ideas and it just wasn't received well, and then we just got the sense, over and over again, that they didn't want to receive it and quite honestly, as an employee there, I couldn't fathom I mean literally it was beyond me that supervisors or managers wouldn't want to understand ways to make things better, to improve. So the new ideas, right. So it's not just input, but it really was the new ideas for improvement, not even to try them. So I was frustrated by that, I have to say. And then when I went into the research the way I do research is, I go into organizations to study about them. So it's ethnography. I meant like anthropologists, cultural anthropologists would study. So I spent oftentimes a year in an organization or months field studies to get to know the context.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

And over the years I was chagrined and puzzled because I witnessed the failure of too many well-intentioned change initiatives. So these were more than what happened in the factory. These were managers who really wanted to create change and so they had resources to do it. They had leadership that was pretty supportive and they sought employee buy-in for solutions. I couldn't explain it. I mean it wasn't political, it wasn't, there was just something there. I mean I didn't have like the why around this, okay. So I was puzzled, I was surprised. And then there were business stories also all the times of change gone awry. We don't see too many where they've worked as a rule, and studies of change also suggest only a limited few create change, and especially when that change involves alteration of beliefs, assumptions and practices. So that's really cultural change when beliefs need to change or they do change right, and so only 15% of the efforts for the cultural change studies say succeed.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So I have, I sampled on the dependent variable here and because I wanted to know more about these organizations, so I was puzzled. So I had an opportunity to study one of the few I thought was going to be successful. It just had some. I had a hunch, I didn't know for sure and indeed it did. They really were creating a novel operating model that delivered innovative results, a new patient care model, inpatient care model, very innovative for the time that they developed it and well regarded and nationally known. I would just say that much about it. And they actually, in that field site, helped me discover the power of discovery. I mean, it really came to fruition for me in watching and observing and talking with people, looking at their archives, what they did right, and so that started me on discovery.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So I wrote this book ultimately, mainly because we're all called to rethink or reimagine think of COVID, other things. We all face situations where we think we need to rethink what we're doing or those kinds of things, and this process of discovery is critical to creating change. That involves that that involves rethinking, reimagining, in particular, cultural change. Everybody's talking about how do you create culture change? Well, you have to rethink and reimagine.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So discovery is critical to that if we wanna get new practices and beliefs in a way that's desired and embraced by all, or by many, and I've come to also believe that it's one of the most important practices we can develop as humans to thrive in life, because changes aren't gonna or upending situations are not gonna stop, basically. So how do it's how we respond to them, and with this process of discovery in our toolkit, we're gonna be much better positioned to respond creatively in ways that work for people. So that's kind of where it is. So I'm on a campaign, I'm making a conscious effort. The website and so forth is to help leaders learn this practice. It matters, it's important, and so I don't want it to be undervalued or underdeveloped or underutilized any longer. Yeah, Absolutely.

J.P. Matychak:

So can you talk a little bit, then, more about this process and leaders who read the book or listen here or visit the website. What can they do in their work practices to start down this path of a discovery process and everything that they do in the organizations?

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So there are a couple things that they can do. And then each chapter I would say in the book has actionable steps for people to take. So around the respectful engagement, around the confident humility, around the discovery cycle. So each one of those has a number of them that and it's their examples, actionable steps, and they always provide an example of a company that did that or an individual who did that. So I've tried, while I talk organizational and that's my level- of analysis, it's also individuals, and sometimes those are highlighted with that.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So, for example, one of the I won't go into detail about this, but one of the wonderful examples is from Boston, the healthcare for the homeless program and Dr Jim O'Connell, who's a BU physician and who I taught his case for years in my class. He is one of the people profiled who has wonderful confidence, humility and is respectfully engages people everyone and so went through a discovery process. So I'll leave the readers to look for that example in it. But basically, you can begin with there's a couple ways and then let me I can give another story, if that's. We have time for that.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

But take a puzzling. You can either take a question that you don't know the answer to so this is a way concretely to start that you genuinely don't know the answer to, or that you'd like to imagine something that you can't think of yet, right? Or you can take a situation that's already occurred that's puzzling to you, right? So you have a choice. You can either create something, which is what the healthcare group did. They wanted to try to create a future way of delivering care to patients so that they would be the go-to destination in 10 years. So strategic planning is essential for that. Get out of the room where everybody does strategic planning and go look right, Go seek, so you can do one of those two things.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Take an existing puzzling situation like how could I have missed that kind of notion? Or and you want to engage it more or a question you don't know the answer to the key is you don't do what Scott Cook did at the beginning, you don't explain it away, you don't, as tempting as it might be, you don't ignore it, which we generally do, or you don't kind of censor it. You really want to engage it. You want to amplify that situation so that you understand what puzzles you about it. So basically, the key is ask questions, Don't problem solve, Don't look for answers, which is what you know. It's not problem solving. This starts with a situation and says what don't we know about it, Not what answers do we have that could explain it right. That's a big difference You'll get a key one, a key one.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Yeah, definitely a key one. So questions, because the minute you ask questions that are of a discovery mindset, you're not the prosecuting attorney here, you know, kind of right. You're really trying to say what is it that I don't know? And how do I ask these questions? You've entered genuine doubt, the area of not knowing. And so then what you do is you think about the questions that you have and then you move on to and in well, I could talk about the clinic in a minute, but then you move on to how do you go to the site of action, like the puzzling.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

When you look at that puzzling situation closer, what situation does it call in mind? What location or what do you need to revisit? And so I use the metaphor of walk with. How do you walk with the situation? Yeah, you've got cook it into it walked with the customers, the healthcare system walked with patients literally to be able to see what they couldn't see. So we're trying to get out and see what we don't see, and that's the discovery piece. That may be obvious to others, right, it may. You may say how could they not see that? But it's not obvious to the people inside, and that's the big thing.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So that's one, a simpler one and I've actually tried this with undergrad and graduate students is in execs keep a surprise journal. There's been a couple articles about it in Fast Company and I think I mentioned earlier. Experience teaches us by surprise. So what is it that we learn? And discover new right. So if surprise is the entree to discovery, then keeping a surprise journal helps us get adept at moving into surprise and embracing it, or savoring it, as Cook talked about, versus backing off from it. Now, you can't do that with every surprise, obviously, but the ones that are upending and that you really want to look more at, that's worth it. So those are a couple ways to think about how you go about.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

There are others too. I mean, I mentioned ask questions from a discovery mindset. The other would be, I guess, what I've seen is, in all these cases, people walked into the unknown, the genuine note, the unknown, genuine doubt together. They walked with someone else or with others, and so every one of these is a group effort, a broad stakeholder effort, or if not, there's maybe one person who had the surprise, they reached out immediately to others when it was the questions and trying to figure out what was going on so that they could better understand. They went to the place where the difficulties were occurring, and so those are some key pieces. I would say what we could do concretely tomorrow. I think students for students are you.

Shannon Light:

It's just actually fantastic. They're right in my mind.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So the students were puzzled by the surprise journal when I had them do it, but then they started to get into it as they started to explore some of the questions about it.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

I think, probably with students, one of the key things they've told me actually, because I tried out these ideas with evening MBA, pemba students and daytime MBA and then undergrad students as well and they talked about the importance of knowing what genuine doubt was and that how it's different from self-doubt, because even doctoral students will go into self-doubt like something's wrong with me, that I don't know this, you know, especially if a particular faculty member is really harsh about whatever. You don't know this and it could have been. So you go back, you're back on your heels and basically generative doubt says you can, you're really asking to doubt your beliefs or your ideas or your tools or your methods, but you're not to self-doubt yourself, and artists have this kind of issue as well. So that's really a critical piece, that it's genuine doubt, meaning it's sincere. Something is upended for you but you don't move it. It's not that it's not personal, but you don't move it to question your own self with this, and that's a critical difference, especially for new students in the room.

J.P. Matychak:

Now, you wrote this book to be a guide in a lot of ways, which is important because I mean, a lot of people talk about here's another research article or whatnot, but where does it apply to me? And so how, as you thought about writing this book, how do you want leaders to use the book and what other tools are you making available to leaders to help them go on this discovery journey?

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Right. Well, one of the proudest moments actually was kind of a fun surprise when Adam Grant endorsed the book and he called this an actionable and accessible resource for leaders. That was the highest compliment. I worked hard. I actually had a coach to help me write this, so he would read my drafts, and what I wanted to do was make it accessible. I had been used to academic writing and I was good at it. I taught others how to do it.

J.P. Matychak:

Exactly, that's exactly right.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

And so I had to not unlearn that, but I had to quote, discover or whatever, cultivate a new way of writing that was still me and my voice, and that took a few years to be honest about it to be able to do that, and so I'm pleased that the book has really actionable, concrete things to do. I also have created and this won't be the end of it a website. I can do the pitch, I think, right now.

J.P. Matychak:

Yeah, go for it.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

It's a mouthful, but it's my name Karen golden, hyphen Biddle, com and with the hyphen yes, although I think we can direct it if it's not. But even and on, there there are, and there's a start to this. There's a wonderful quiz to go do now. That is a discovery quiz, so you can take that and you'll get results and I'll share. Then You'll get your immediate result and then I will share the aggregate results, keeping everything anonymous, but the aggregate results when in a few, a couple months from now On, there will be that.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

So that's one of the diagnostic tools. There will be more. There's going to be stories, discover stories. There will be curricula for faculty to teach each discovery in the classroom, so there's a piece around that and then a discussion guide for people who want to read it and Talk about it in a group kind of thing. And there will be other articles. I'm constantly looking at articles right now that that are able to that, a complement this and help expand it, and so I will either post those or give resources about that. So I look at this as a discovery Warehouse kind of notion or what, what, that has everything in there and of course, I'm available to consult with people who want to develop the practice of discovery, and so I'd like to work with groups of people or train people in organizations so that they can do new Discovery in their organizations. So that's wow, that's fantastic. Thank you, yes, I'm pretty excited about it.

J.P. Matychak:

Should be. Yeah, absolutely right, absolutely Well, it's Shannon. You have any other questions you want to cover? I mean, this has been absolutely fascinating.

J.P. Matychak:

No, that was, that was everything from for me, yeah so let's close out with one sort of Final thought from you. As far as when a leader, at any level you know so I whatever you know piece of advice or whatever from any level of a leader in the organization, you know what is when they read this book. What is the, what is the one thing, that one takeaway that you hope that everybody who reads it walks away Knowing.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

I can do this Seriously. I can cultivate the practice of discovery. I now see how that's possible for me to do and I see why it's important for me to do and how it will help me, my community and my organizations. Wow, powerful.

J.P. Matychak:

I like that, I really do like that. Truly a must read for any leader. Karen, thank you for spending time with us and talking about your new book.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Oh thank you, it's been a joy.

J.P. Matychak:

Karen Golden-Biddle, Professor of Merit of Management and organizations at Boston University. Question of School of Business and the author of the new book the untapped power of discovery how to create change that inspires a better future, available now.

Karen Golden-Biddle:

Pre-order now it's out February 27

J.P. Matychak:

You can pre-order now on Amazon, I believe I saw correctly, and we'll include a link in the show notes as well on the site, as well as A link to your website, karen golden-b iddle. com. So that will wrap it up for this episode of the Insights at Questrom podcast. For more information about this show, our previous shows and additional insights from question faculty, visit us at insights. bu. edu For Shannon light. I'm JP Matychak. So long.