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Insights@Questrom Podcast
The Insights@Questrom Podcast digs a bit deeper into thought-provoking ideas on emerging business topics from faculty, alumni, and others from the Boston University Questrom School of Business. For more insights, visit insights.bu.edu
Insights@Questrom Podcast
Redefining Retirement: Navigating Emotional and Social Transitions with Insightful Strategies
On this episode of Insights@Questrom, contributor Shannon Light chats with Kathy Kram, Professor of Management & Organizations, emerita, and Tim Hall, Professor of Management & Organizations, emeritus, about their co-authored book, Retiring: Creating a Life That Works for You.
The discussion dives into retirement as a major life transition—one that goes beyond financial and health concerns to address deeper psychological, social, and structural challenges. Professors Kram and Hall share insights from their book, which is based on detailed retirement stories of 14 individuals and over 200 interviews. They explore how retiring involves reconstructing both identity and life structure, offering wisdom on the four major tasks of retirement: making the retirement decision, detaching from work, building a new retirement life, and adapting as life unfolds.
Listeners will learn how alignment among self, life structure, and external context is key to life satisfaction during retirement and how support from family, friends, and colleagues can make a crucial difference. The authors also discuss how organizations can better support older workers as they prepare to transition out of their careers.
To find out more about their book, ‘Retiring: Creating a Life That Works for You’ visit https://retiringbook.com or find their book on Amazon here.
Hello everybody and welcome into the show and welcome to season three of the Insights and Question podcast. I'm JP Matichak. On this episode, contributor Shannon Light chats with Kathy Cram, professor of Management and Organizations Emerita, and Tim Hall, professor of Management and Organizations Emeritus, about their co-authored book Retiring Creating a Life that Works for you. The discussion dives into retirement as a major life transition, one that goes beyond financial and health concerns to address deeper psychological, social and structural challenges. Professors Cram and Hall share insights from their book, which is based on detailed retirement stories of 14 individuals and over 200 interviews. Here's Shannon Light.
Shannon Light:I'm very excited to be sitting down today with Kathy Cram and Tim Hall to discuss their book Retiring Creating a Life that Works for you. Kathy is the RC Shipley Professor in Management Emerita at Boston University's Questrom School of Business. Her primary interests are in the areas of adult development, relational learning, mentoring, diversity issues and executive development, leadership and organizational change. Processes Kathy, thanks so much for joining me today. Processes Kathy, thanks so much for joining me today. I am also here with Tim Hall, who is the Morton H and Charlotte Friedman Professor of Management Emeritus at Boston University's Questrom School of Business. Tim is also the founding director of the Boston University Executive Development Roundtable and has also served as Acting Dean and Associate Dean for Faculty Development, as well as the Faculty Director for MBA Programs at Questrom. Tim, thank you for joining us today.
Tim Hall:Thank you, shannon, nice to be here.
Shannon Light:I'm very excited to learn more about your book Retiring Creating a Life that Works for you your book Retiring Creating a Life that Works for you. Congratulations on the publication in October 2024. I know it's been a very exciting time for you both, so I look forward to learning more about how this book came to be. I figured best to start with learning how this book emerged and really who it's for.
Kathy Kram:Well, I think I'll let you, tim, start this out, because you're the one who invited me to lunch at Bertucci's.
Tim Hall:Well, I was thinking you started it because you started making plans for retirement a year or so before I did, and that's what first got me thinking about retirement. And I guess there may be a point there that this is very personal for all of us on the author team and we weren't all retired when we started the project. Only one of us was Lottie Balin, I guess. For me I was interested in doing a study of late career development. Most of my research has been on careers and how people develop in their careers and what kind of transitions they go through, and I had done some research on older workers and a little bit on retirement. But I was interested in the possibility of doing a study, maybe sort of an observational study, where it involves tracking my own and teammates' experiences, as we're talking to other people as well. But so I had asked Kathy if she would be interested in that as well, and originally we were talking about doing a study with our spouses.
Tim Hall:Kathy's husband, Peter, was a professor in the sociology department at BU and my wife, Marcy Crary, was a professor at Bentley in the management department, and so we were thinking about doing something together as a foursome. And then I had a call from Teresa Amabile at Harvard Business School and we've been friends for a long time and she said she was getting ready to do a study of retirement and could we get together and talk. She just wanted to bounce some ideas around, so we arranged to get together at Bertucci's there was a Bertucci's in Kenmore Square at that time and I said well, I've been talking to Kathy and Teresa knows Kathy. And I said how would it be if I invited Kathy to join us? Teresa said great, and as we talked we realized what we want to do. Both projects were pretty similar and so we said well, why don't we think about doing something together? So that's really how it got started.
Kathy Kram:Yeah, and I think you know. An important add to that is, as Tim mentioned, all of us were considering retirement. One was retired. The reason I was so excited is that all my research throughout my career has always had an autobiographical component, and I was getting ready to retire so I figured what better way to do that than to find a project on retirement. So it was very timely for all of us and an important part of how the book came about was we did examine our own experiences as we were doing the research. Tim and Teresa actually wrote a paper on self-referential research. We really believe that our work was enhanced by having gone through the process ourselves. So we're all now officially retired from our universities. Well, congratulations.
Kathy Kram:Yeah, that is.
Shannon Light:I think that's a really important aspect to this book is that you all can speak to your own personal experiences, and I think that will definitely help the audience resonate with the information that you cover in the book. Which of retirement journey Did you find that these are common with the retirement journey, or did you see a lot of overlap, with people struggling with one of those tasks more than others? Were there trends?
Kathy Kram:Yeah, should we first say what they are?
Shannon Light:Yes, that would be great.
Kathy Kram:Yeah. So we identified across all 120 people that we interviewed and these were people in the corporate world from three different companies, different companies. They all had to address four tasks. We call them developmental tasks because they require learning and exploration and usually change in some aspect of the self as they go about this work. So, obviously, the first task is making the decision to retire, and when people think about retirement, that's what they usually think about and they base it on financial. You know, do I have the financial readiness? Do I have health requirements, that readiness? Do I have health requirements that cause me to want to work less? Whatever it may be? But rarely do people think about what comes after the decision to retire.
Kathy Kram:And the second, third and fourth tasks are all about what comes after. The second one is detaching from work. Really, you know, most of us, both in academia and the corporate world, have strong identification with our work. So there's a identity change that comes about, and the second task is about navigating that identity change and usually identity loss as well. The third task is about exploring and experimenting with building a new life structure, and the life structure is all the activities and relationships and contexts that are currently part of our life. When you take work out of that as a central organizing concept, there's a lot of uncertainty. What do I do with those 40 to 60 hours a week I use working? So that's kind of the introduction of a big piece of the transition to again, as Tim and I are discovering as we finish this big 10-year project, the question is, what will we be doing next? So everybody has to go through those tasks. The question is there's wide variation in how they go about it. Tim, did you want to add to that?
Tim Hall:No, I think that's a good description. It sounds sort of obvious when you mention them that well, yeah, of course you have to make the decision to retire, of course you have to detach and everything. But it's a whole lot easier said than done.
Shannon Light:I'm sure that's something, and, of course, somebody who is far from retiring. Even now, the idea of detaching from work, both tangibly and psychologically, seems like a very significant hurdle.
Tim Hall:Yeah.
Shannon Light:During these studies, did you find that people had strategies that were effective for navigating this phase?
Kathy Kram:Yeah, and I think there are a number of different strategies that people use.
Kathy Kram:The one that comes to my mind because it's what I did and we heard from several people I'm thinking about one of the people we interviewed.
Kathy Kram:We interviewed 14 people many, many times, so we got longitudinal data on them, and one of the people we interviewed said that he knew from a previous career ending and transition that having a landing spot was really helpful, something you're moving towards, a project that excites you in some way beyond the work that you can replace it with. In my case, and I think in Tim's case too, it was this project and another project that I had going that was going to go on even after I retired from the university. So that's one strategy have in mind something that you can really put yourself into the way you did into work, or you can express the same talents and skills that you did when you were working that you can transfer to Other people just welcome the freedom of time that comes with letting go of full-time work, and some of our participants were celebrating not having to get up to an alarm clock, having more quiet time, reflective time, time to read novels you know, really dependent on the individual and what they saw as their values and priorities.
Tim Hall:I think some people try to have specific plans in mind for retiring, like the landing spot. A guy named Walter in our study is the one Kathy's talking about for that, and I interviewed him. And also he had been in the military. He was a 20-year military officer, so he had already had the experience of retiring, so he had learned from that experience. And so other people, though, didn't necessarily feel the need to have specific plans. They had more of a process they were going to use, and one of the people took advantage of his company's program, which was a transition into retirement program where they could sign up and have a year and a half at a reduced workload, so they would have one day a week off.
Tim Hall:He was an engineer and manager and he would take Fridays off, was very active in his religious community, and a big part of the work in the religious community involved discernment, and he had great faith that he would be able to use this process of reflection and discernment on Fridays. He was planning that's how he was planning to spend his Fridays. That would be his day to sort of figure out what he would be doing in retirement, what he would be doing in retirement, and again, it didn't quite work out that way, because his daughter had just had a baby, a little baby boy, and when she knew he was going to be home on Fridays free, she said dad, how would you feel about babysitting on Fridays, or anyway? So he he wasn't quite sure about that, but what he decided was that he would, uh, spend half the day with his new grandson and then half the day in his discernment practice, um, and that worked out very well for him, and so it was also an experiment with the new role of grandfather.
Tim Hall:This was his first grandchild and he surprised himself at how much he loved it, and so part of what he discerned in that process was that he could really see how having family life be a bigger part of his life, that could help take up that space that had been the work part of his life. When he first started doing the transition program, he'd be home on Fridays, and he was really daunted at the absence of his engineering self and he was asking himself well, who will I be if I'm not an engineer? But as the time went by and he got to know his grandson and got to realize how much he loved being together with him, then he realized okay, now I can see. This other part of my life is going to grow.
Kathy Kram:And then another contrast to that individual are some of the people one of them that I interviewed, simon, who he had so many hobbies gardening and hiking and political action and active member of his church.
Kathy Kram:He couldn't wait to stop working so that he could just funnel more of his time and energy into those other things that he loved. So his transition for some was very short. Like him, within a year he felt quite settled in his new life, which didn't change very much, except he did take up a volunteer job where he could use some of his computer and engineering skills to serve underserved populations and he really found meaning in that. So it depends, really depends, on the opportunities. We talk about the self being the person's identities and motives and priorities, and then the life structure, which are all the activities and relationships importantly, like a grandchild in one's life, and how those shift as the decision to retire is implemented. And it's kind of a dance between those two the self on the one hand, who's changing identity right, letting go of work and maybe bringing in some new identities like grandparent, and the life structure, which loses work and may lose some relationships like good colleagues and friends that one had at work.
Shannon Light:It's to that story of having the grandchild and how big of a role that turned into for for this retiree. It seems that family, friends, colleagues are a big support system when it comes to transitioning into that retirement phrase. Are there specific actions or behaviors that you observed when speaking with the 14 retirees and doing the many interviews that they expressed helped make their process easier or their transition easier?
Kathy Kram:We clearly saw a pattern of people who were aware of the impact of this very personal decision on people in their family and in their lives.
Kathy Kram:When they were aware that it was going to impact them, they had an easier time because they could kind of renegotiate expectations with those family members and friends.
Kathy Kram:And one of the major themes that came out of our analysis was the importance of relationships and being proactive or agentic about renegotiating expectations and making relationships really a source of support. We had a couple of people I'm thinking about Christopher, one of the people we interviewed who had a really hard time with his spouse because she did not want him to stop working. He agreed to work part-time as a consultant when he left his company because she was very concerned about their financial nest egg not diminishing in any way, and he did it. He struggled through two years of doing this part-time consulting but he really didn't want to be doing it. It was very stressful for him. He had health issues as well and he finally literally broke down crying and talking to her and saying I don't want to do this anymore, and he was able to renegotiate with her and ended up letting go of work entirely, but that was two years later than he would have liked, Wow of what, wow.
Tim Hall:But she immediately shifted sort of her attitude, her stance, because before that, as Kathy said, she had really been putting pressure on Christopher to keep applying for consulting projects and he just was finding physically he couldn't do it. You know, his body, he was having trouble concentrating, he didn't have the energy to do it and he was getting, you know, pressure from both sides, from his wife and from his body, in opposite directions, and obviously she knew about his health and she was concerned about that as well. And as soon as he broke down and just told her he couldn't do it, it was very clear to her she immediately started making travel plans for things they could do in retirement plans, for things they could do in retirement. So she immediately became a great ally for him in making full-time retirement plans. So we find that that sort of adaptability and flexibility on the part of not only the retiring person but family, spouse, friends, other key people in someone's life, that sort of adaptability is really important.
Shannon Light:That's a really interesting story to see that shift happen in real time. But that's great. It's great to hear that they both went through that acceptance and, as you said to him, the adaptability with that transition, because it's definitely a big one, spouses.
Tim Hall:But the ones who were married. You might check me on this, kathy, but as I recall, they were pretty long-term marriages. There was one person who had just recently divorced and was in the process of starting a new relationship during our study. They ended up getting married. But a lot of these marital relationships were very long and, I think, very strong and deep.
Kathy Kram:Yeah, what I would add to that is how the duration of this transition that we're talking about really varies. In our sample it can be as short as a year and as long as five to six years. We had one person that Teresa interviewed, who you know he really. It took him almost seven years to let go of full-time work. It was Jay and then he lost his spouse and so he had another adaptability challenge on his plate. So you really never know. I've developed a lot more patience for myself actually in listening to all these stories. You know it's not something if you're very results-oriented, you want to get this transition over with, but you can't. It involves a lot of people. It involves your sense of self agency and adaptability and self-awareness to know what you need and how quickly to move.
Shannon Light:Yeah, absolutely. I know too, and you shared a specific example of a company helping with that transition as well. Did you find that that was a common offering for the retirees that you spoke to through the companies that they were working with? Did you see that as a common denominator, or did not many companies offer that?
Kathy Kram:We only had three companies represented in our study, but we've gone on to read about and talk with other companies Two of our three actually did have some kind of part-time options available officially. But more broadly, the idea of providing opportunities, just like you do financial planning for retirement to do end of our book that this is an opportunity for companies to help their older employees not to just get ready financially but also to consider the four tasks and how they might begin thinking about them so they feel more prepared to start the process. And we also have found in a couple of workshop settings that people really benefit from talking with other people. So to the extent that companies offer seminars like that, it could be very, very helpful for you know, facilitating the retirement transition.
Shannon Light:I think that's fantastic. I feel like that connects to and I'm speaking from personal experience of the sense of community with connecting to your colleagues, or going to college learning about your peers that you'll be in class with. So I can absolutely see how that could benefit somebody that's gearing up for that big transition in their life is having that sense of community joining seminars. Having that sense of community joining seminars Did you see any out of the ordinary or wildly different approaches to retirement when you were doing this study?
Kathy Kram:Well, I do think of one of the people featured in our book I'm forgetting his name now, tim, maybe you'll remember who made a decision to move 2,000 miles with his wife to be near his only grandchild, who was a toddler Lawrence Lawrence right. Lawrence Lawrence right. And Lawrence was very excited about this, so excited that he didn't think that he needed to talk with his son about it before he made the move. He just let them know we're coming.
Kathy Kram:And it turns out that his son and daughter-in-law, shortly after they moved there, they were having marital problems and they ended up in an acrimonious divorce and the grandson was not really available to the extent that Lawrence and his wife had expected. And this all led to a lot of frustration because he abandoned all his other interests. Unlike some of our interviewees, he didn't think, he thought about, but he never explored in the new location, teaching part-time or doing some volunteer work. He just wrapped his whole self in being a grandfather. And when that didn't work out the way he wanted, he and his wife had a drinking problem and it just got worse and it was not a smooth transition. He has since gone into recovery along with his wife and now, six years later, he's doing quite well, but it was a lesson in not really anticipating how relationships will change, how other people in your life will be impacted, and not taking the time to doing the exploration that really leads to a solid life structure, not one that's dependent on one person or family. That's the one I think of.
Tim Hall:Well, there's another one that struck me as pretty unusual. This was not so much a wildly different thing that the organization did, but what an individual did to manage his own retirement. He was in one of our three companies, and this company, well, actually, like all three, had been having its financial ups and downs, and so it got to be a pretty annual thing. Every February the company would announce layoffs and they would offer separation packages to people. And so he was at the age where he was beginning to think about retirement and he, but he wasn't quite ready to do it, but financially he knew that he could have done it if, if he had to. So anyway, several months before this February layoff period, he had a heart-to-heart talk with his boss and they had a good relationship. And I think, in general, this is where a good relationship between an employee and their boss is really important, between an employee and their boss is really important, and I think there's a lesson for managers in this that if you have the kind of relationship where people can come to you and really own up to some of the things they're thinking about, it can be a win-win. Because what the employee said was I know there may be layoffs coming up in a few months, and I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking about retirement, and if you need people to separate voluntarily, I'd be happy to take retirement at this point. And in fact the boss took him up on that. He came back to him.
Tim Hall:But the guy also knew the company's pattern was often they overestimated how deep the cuts had to be and so they often ended up hiring people back after they had separated. And I guess he was in an area that was enough in demand that he thought there was a good chance that if he left he might be called back. And that's exactly what happened. So he got a nice retirement package. He had a chance to stop working for I don't know a couple of months and then he was asked to come back, and I think it was. He was offered the option of part time. They needed his skill enough so that they would negotiate, so he was able to work out his own kind of retirement transition process and then he retired maybe a year or so year or two after that.
Shannon Light:Wow, both of those stories are interesting and definitely very, very different.
Shannon Light:Yeah very different. Yeah, I I think that, kathy, to the story you shared um Lawrence I believe you said his name was definitely highlights the risk of, and potentially traumatic consequences of, not having that clear sense of what it is you'd like to do and replace with what you were used to doing day to day. But, tim, that story is interesting because, like you said, the clear communication and him at least being in a place to consider accelerating his retirement transition, it's very interesting. It's really interesting to think about how different everyone's experiences are with it.
Shannon Light:And Kathy, I know you touched on it earlier when we were speaking about going through these interviews and speaking with the 14 retirees how it's influenced your own perspective on retirement. Has it changed your plan significantly or is it more? You're kind of absorbing what other people are going through and it's it's helped you get a clearer sense of what you'd like to do during this, this period of life.
Kathy Kram:Yeah, I. I think the major personal insight for me is that transitions take time and and work. I mean we often joke, retirement takes work, you know, because it does. It does take work to be aware of what are my needs now, now that the book is done and I've been away from the university for 10 years, what are my needs, university for 10 years, what are my needs? And I'm not rushing to answer those questions as fast as I might have 10 years ago, because I know it's a process. It's a process of exploring and experimenting and trying some things out.
Kathy Kram:I just became a grandmother for the first time out. I just became a grandmother for the first time. So that's my ambition, you know, to see how much of my life I'm going to end up devoting to that new role. I'm excited about it. But I also realized, as we learned from our interviewees, that parents, the parents of the grandchild, are very important figures in what that's going to look like. So my relationship is not just with my granddaughter but also with my adult children. That needs to be clarified. So I think you know being aware of the four tasks and having a reverence for the fact that they take time and they take learning and that talking with other people, which I should mention, tim and I, we've always talked with each other as we faced major life transitions, and so we knew, even before we started the study. We had been involved in research on peer coaching and I had been studying mentoring, so I knew relationships can always play an important role, and you know, I think our study demonstrated that too.
Tim Hall:I think another thing about the four tasks is that they are related and they certainly aren't always done sequentially. You know, in that order it's often more circular than linear. In my case, I was really having trouble with the decision to retire, which we call task one. And when I hit 65 and I looked at my financial situation and we're blessed to have TIAA and a really good pension program at BU so I realized financially it would have been possible to retire at 65, but I was also really having a good time. You know, I was working with the MBA program, with a research center, and I had a chair and support for my research and great dean and associate deans and department chair and all the conditions were great. So I thought I couldn't imagine giving that up and so I was worried about detaching. But I also didn't know what else I would do instead. But I also didn't know what else I would do instead. Well, that's the third task. What's your new retirement life structure going to be? Is to realize. Well, I had a lot of great friends at BU and I love what I was doing. I could continue doing a lot of that later on. That's the nice thing about academic life and a lot of professionals, a lot of people in trades. You know they can keep doing the kind of work work they're doing, whether they have an employer or are doing it independently. So what really helped me was having a chance to do some exploring and thinking about what it would be like if I detached or what else I might do.
Tim Hall:And one thing that really helped me I don't know if BU still offers this, but the HR department was offering retirement planning seminars. The focus was on the financial aspect and it was run by the TIAA and Fidelity representatives who work with the university CIAA and Fidelity representatives who work with the university and it was only a half-day program. It didn't take a lot of time. I'm sure it was not too expensive for the university to run it. And all of these financial experts were stressing, yes, the money's important, but don't retire until you know what you want to do in retirement.
Tim Hall:There's a life planning aspect to retirement as well as a financial planning, and that really helped trigger me to begin exploring okay, well, what about life planning? And so it would be very easy to follow up a financial planning seminar like that with a three hour life planning seminar where help or counseling that the organization gives for people in retirement. But the complication and I know from having been a dean the administrators can't really initiate that sort of conversation with an individual faculty member for legal reasons. So it's really up to the employee to initiate it. But what the organization can do is offer somebody for a group of people who can sign up voluntarily and that can be a way to get people to start exploring. And I think in a lot of our cases what we found was once that's the initial trigger event, once people start exploring, then the process often sort of unfolds naturally.
Shannon Light:Yeah, that's really interesting and I think both of you offered great insight into looking at this transition phase more, but it also helped you understand what other resources can be helpful for others, like that life coaching or. I'm sorry, thinking about the life stage and what you'll do Instead. To kind of wrap this up, are there any other actionable pieces of advice from your book that you, that readers, could take away?
Kathy Kram:Yeah, I wanted to make sure we mentioned what we coined the phrase for the four A's, something that came out of our complete review of our data, that there seem to be four characteristics or capabilities that people who found a satisfactory my life structure looks like, and when there's a sense of fit between those two, there is definitely more satisfaction. So if you think about the reverse of that, when you start feeling a lack of alignment, that when you start feeling a lack of alignment as I did when I turned 65 and I had some health issues and I was sort of beginning to feel burnt out I knew I had to start recognizing that poor alignment. So when that starts happening, that's where the other three A's kick in Awareness, awareness, being aware of how I'm changing or what I want now in my life that maybe I didn't need or want before. And then the second is agency, um, being willing to take action to, to explore or bring in new activities and relationships.
Kathy Kram:And the last one was adaptability, which Tim has mentioned a few times today, because things will happen People will die, health issues will come about, pandemics will come, there'll be things that disrupt what you currently may think is a great alignment and there'll be a need to adapt, but that's part of every life transition. So those four A's keeping them in mind, we just published an HBR article on the four A's on the forays. It's called Retiring Without Regret and that would be a good follow-up to the book as well. The book offers a lot of in-depth cases that most readers find they really identify with one or more of the cases that are presented and therefore they can learn a lot from that person's story.
Tim Hall:And I think we kept hearing from people when we asked them about how and when they made the decision to retire.
Tim Hall:They often said well, I finally reached the point where it just seemed like it was time, either if the person knew very much what they wanted to do or if it was a long process. But people finally reach a point where they decide it's time. And one of the men that I talked to said he was advised, based on his own retirement experience, that when you're an older person you have three aspects of old age. First you have the go-go years, when you're really in good shape, you can do a lot of things. Then you have the go slow years, when maybe health things come in, you slow down a little bit. And then you have the no-go years and you really want to retire in time to really maximize those go-go years, go years, and I think most people, if they had any second thoughts about the timing of their retirement, they're more likely to say maybe they should have retired sooner than to say, well, maybe I should have kept working longer.
Shannon Light:Yeah, that's really interesting and I think that and, kathy, thank you for highlighting that HBR article as well I think that you clearly covered many different stories in this book and I think that, going back to the way beginning, when you spoke about your own experiences, I think that bringing all of these different narratives together helps, will help many different readers of the book. So, for those that are interested in reading retiring, where can they, where can they find your book?
Kathy Kram:Well, it's on Amazon.
Tim Hall:Amazon yeah.
Kathy Kram:It was published by Rutledge Don't. We have a book website now, but I forgot what it's called.
Tim Hall:I think it's just retiringbookcom.
Shannon Light:Yeah, yes that's right, perfect, well, thank you both, so so much for joining me today. I really enjoyed this conversation and I appreciate all of your wonderful insights, and we are very excited to share this with the Insights at Questrom audience.
Tim Hall:Thank you, shannon, nice talking to you.
JP Matychak:Well, that'll wrap things up for this episode of the Insights at Questrom podcast. Thanks again to our guests Kathy Cram and Tim Hall and, of course, thank you to our Insights at Questrom contributor, shannon Light. For more information on this episode and all of our previous episodes, make sure to check us out at insightsbuedu. So long, thank you. You, you, you, you. You.