evokecast
Official podcast of the Evoke Endurance collective. Evoke Endurance is an institution that disseminates information on training for mountain sports. Here we share our collection of interviews, discussions, and educational materials for the benefit of the global mountain community.
evokecast
#120 David Göttler: On Climbing Nanga Parbat’s Schell Route With A Paragliding Descent
Join coach Scott Johnston for a conversation with David Göttler, after his recent alpine-style ascent, and paragliding descent of Schell route, on Nanga Parbat’s infamous Rupal Face. They discuss David’s training and preparation for the climb, and his experiences throughout the expedition. Details of the conversation are provided below in the Episode Guide.
To submit your own training questions, or if would like to learn more about the Evoke Endurance community, contact us here.
David Göttler's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/david_goettler/
Episode Guide
00:00:00 Introduction
00:03:43 Early days of David’s aerobic development
00:05:41 History with climbing Nanga Parbat
00:14:01 2025 ascent and paragliding descent of the Schell route
00:23:23 Dialing fueling and hydration on summit attempt
00:30:54 Pre-acclimitization and recovery strategies
00:34:06 Avoiding over-reaching during pre-climb activities
00:42:09 David’s personal climbing ethics
00:49:26 Technological and ethical changes in climbing
00:52:15 Training methods: the specificity spectrum
01:11:52 David’s future plans and post-expedition break
01:14:54 How to find David, and final thoughts
Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Evolved Cast. I'm your host, Scott Johnston. And with me today is my good friend and alpinist David Heutler, whom I've coached for about 10 years now. David just returned from a successful ascent of the shell route on the Rupal face of Nangaparvat in Pakistan. Besides being a world-class alpinist, David is also an accomplished hair glider who regularly uses his wing to descend from climbs. On Nangaparvat, he carried his wing and flew from near the summit to base camp in only about 30 minutes, while his partners seed back down over the course of a couple of days. During our chat today, we discussed his semi-alpine style ascent and what that means in terms of the ethics and transparency in a sport with no clear rules. We delve into his training, including looking back at how it has changed over the 10 years that we've worked together. When David first approached me about coaching him, it was to prepare him for an expedition to Shut Japan with the Alpine superstar sea demon Uli Stick. David was concerned about being able to keep up with Uli, who was then at the peak of his fitness, just before his tragic death on New City. David, like many of the athletes who come to us, was aerobically deficient. His journey to being as fit or fitter than some of the best alphabets in the world today is a reflection of how this type of training can work for everyone. We also talk about the challenges mountaineers face when it comes to nutrition and hydration. Overall, I think you'll find it an enjoyable conversation. And thanks for joining me again. So let's just dive right in. So welcome, David. It's really good to have you back and back safely from your climb, too, as well.
SPEAKER_00:It's good, yeah. Um thank you for having me. And and of course, always good to chat to you.
SPEAKER_01:Um so David is a professional alpinist for and is sponsored by North Face along with several other companies. Um so he gets after it in the mountains a lot. Um, he's also an aspiring marathon runner, and we've worked together to help him uh break three hours in the marathon a few years back. Um, but anyway, we do have a long history of working together, and I think that's also something that's important for people to understand is that this coach-athlete relationship, um, you know, the longer the two of us work together, as the better the partnership becomes. The more we understand about each other, about the how the training affects um him, um, how what he what he knows more about what I'm expecting when we do these kinds of things. So it's really valuable that we have this long history of working together.
SPEAKER_00:So um yeah, I mean, definitely that's something I I really yeah uh love. I mean, I love working long term with sponsors, but especially with you as my coach. I think if we look back, how it started and and how we really yeah, tried all this different stuff and we we kind of you know redefined it and and and really made it more and more specific. And and also over the years we had time to really try different things and and to know each other that that well, I think brings a huge advantage to my at least fitness and and outcome of how I can perform and and train. And and I think also for you it's it's quite nice that yeah you you know me so well.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and then and I I want to relate a probably slightly embarrassing tale about you. Um I remember when we first started, you were definitely suffering from aerobic deficiency. And I remember lots of comments about oh my god, I'm having to run so slow. And um and so I think it's you know, even a very high-level athlete like yourself can have this problem because you didn't really understand at that point how to train properly. And for sure.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, just to just to give the listeners a, you know, I'm I was always I started climbing when I was seven with my father, and I was always in the mountains. Like mountaineering was my sport from age seven to to now, and I never did anything else. Um, like no other kind of team sport or or athletic or or any anything else. And I was just kind of going for it, and and I became a mountain guide, so I was, yeah, like my my living was always made out of the mountains in one way or or another. But and I thought I I do training, but of course, I I just did what was fun to do. And and so and and and that completely changed when I started working with you. Um, by the way, it was for preparing and going for an expedition with Uli Steck to Shisha Pangma South Face. Um, and so and and that's when I suddenly started to yeah, really have this structured plan and really do real training and not just exercising along.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. I remember there was a bit of anxiety before that. Um, am I going to be able to keep up with Uli and all of that? Definitely. We had a we had a that was a big motivator for you at that time to make sure you could keep up.
SPEAKER_00:For sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, let's talk a little bit more then about let's kind of dive into this recent climb and how you got there. Um, I mean, to finally be on the summit. Um, I know there's been a long journey for you with several attempts. So why don't you just give us some background on that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, my Nangapaba kind of relationship started properly, I would say, in 2013 when Simone Moro, an Italian professional climber, um uh invited me for a winter expedition to Nangaparwa. And he went to the, and we went then together to the to the Ruper side to the Shell route. And that was the first time when I saw this, what is considered the biggest face we have on our planet, if we're talking about elevation from the base of the wall of the face, like where the base camp is, there, to the summit, which is the base camp is 3,600 meters. I don't know what it is in feet, and and then 8,126 is the summit. So it's it's it's bigger than Everest than K2, if we talk in terms of vertical um meters, and and so standing there in in in like this tiny dot under this face is is so big, it's so impressive. I mean, you know it, you you've been there by yourself, you know when when was this? Which year was it?
SPEAKER_01:2005.
SPEAKER_00:2005, yeah. Yeah, and and so and and you and it's really intimidating and you feel very, very small, but but we we tried in in the winter and we used we had fixed robes. There was another polish team, and and then this year I came up to around 7,000 uh meters, 7200, something around this at the so-called Monsino call. This is like where then it goes over, like the lowest point where it can cross over from the Rupert side, where we've been to the Diemir side, the other side. And and that's kind of when I fell in love with with the route. I find the route really like super cool, how it how how it goes, how it finds its way through as relatively safe from objective dangers. So you have you have in the first kind of hundred meters maybe a little bit of a Cerok exposure, but you can really be nicely to the side. And then actually there's no Cerok above you, which I really, really like. And and also there's no big kind of brewers area, and and you have to deal with rockfall, depends on the season and and the year, but it's also something which you actually can can mitigate pretty well with just like don't go when it's too hot and when the sun hits the face. And so 2013 was my first time. We turned around at like 7,000 and a little bit. And and then I tried it another time in winter, in the winter 21-22, with Servi Bamas, another Italian professional climber. And we just came to 6,000 because in the winter it was just the wind was just always there, and it was really, really difficult from the weather. It was just like the the jet just never moved properly away from from Nangaphabat. So we had always this really high winds. And then I thought, okay, let's try to make it not as difficult as possible, and and let's move to to the summer to this to the normal season. So then in uh the summer of 23, I was my first time in summer with Benjamin Vedrin. He's like this upcoming superstar, French superstar, um, incredible strong climber. And we we managed to to get to 7400 just in the beginning of the travers on the Diemir side. So we already went to the other side. But this was probably one of my most difficult times I had to turn around because I couldn't blame it on external factors like like the weather, like the conditions. It was just really, I didn't, it was just I didn't felt it. I was I my legs just didn't feel able to to make it back. We continue this endless trousers. And so I was trying to, you know, eat a little bit more, put jets, and Benjamin made an amazing like track. He he did all the hard work on on our summit day there. And we started also really low um towards the summit, we just thought like, yeah, from the vertical meters, it's it's not much. Come on, we can we can start from from yeah, like seven, seven, one, seven, two, something like this. And and I just after like a couple of hours of internal fight with myself and trying to improve, trying to feel better, I just had to pull the block. And it was really painful to to tell your partner, hey, sorry, I just I just feel too weak today. Um and and there was not, you know, it's not that I could say, hey, I have headache, I have like my my stomach is not right, and or anything. It was just like I just felt felt not strong enough to to pull that off in that year. And and so we made the cold turn around and and Benjamin was so strong, he would easily, I think, probably able to make it, but but I sabotaged his his his summit on on this day, which feels yeah, really it's hard and brutal, and definitely it bruised my my ego uh for a while. And and uh but but now knowing how long it is, definitely I I made the right call at this time. So I think it's it's uh it's really important that you that you yeah, listen to these to these kind of red lights, which which should pop up and um if if you're experienced enough, I guess, and and know how it normally should feel. I'm I'm fortunate that I have this this many, many experience and expeditions at high altitude. So I kind of know which range of you know suffering and and uh and how your body is kind of like what what is normal. It's it's never fun in that way, but but still there is like a certain yeah, I think red line. I I I try not to not to cross. And uh and so I came back then the next year in 24. And there my regular partner, Mikey Arnold, he had to leave at one point because we were just trying to you know wait for a good weather window, and and he had like a hard um uh deadline in the end to to finish the expedition. He left, and lucky me, there was Boris and Tiffan, these two French um mountaineers for the same objective, the same route as well with skis um like Mikey um to climb it, and I could team up with them. And and that was really yeah, super good. Still, we didn't make it. We made it a hundred meters higher compared to my last year with Benjamin to 75, 50, something like this, just where them where this kind of trowers more or less ends with the with the difficulties, and but we were just again too too slow and the the snow were too deep and and and it was too long. So again, we had to to turn around. And but but we knew immediately that we want to to come back the next year with the same team because we we felt it was a really good good team. Um and and that's how we ended up this year again there. And we we did the same program more or less like last year, because I I felt it it should work at least on paper really well, which is something, of course, you you never know. You always, you know, you you work out this best plan and the best scenarios and and all plan B, plan C if something goes wrong, but but in the end you you fail and you you try to analyze and reflect, and and there you need to be really brutal honest to why it it didn't work. And but I was sure it was not because we had a wrong approach in the in the leadoff and the preparation and the acclimatization. So again, we went to Nepal, we went to the same mountains there, Island Peak and a 7,000 meter peak called Barunce. And we we just did these in Alpine style as well. Barunce, we just had we had no base camp. We just went from the last lodge, it's a long, long hike, and we could we could summit Barunse, um, which was really cool because last year as well we I was not able to do that. So that was already like a really good start to to our to our expedition, and also of course for the motivation and the morale of the team that we that we pulled in very like um mediocre conditions like zero visibility. We pulled off Barunce, there was nobody, no, and and so that was really cool. And then we've we traveled directly from Nepal to Pakistan and were more or less immediately ready to to attempt uh Nangapaba because we had a had a good good acclimatization, so that's then yeah, then we were ready on Nangapaba.
SPEAKER_01:And had your plan all along been to fly from as high as possible for the descent? Because I don't know if people know, but David did fly down from the mountain on the summit day. Um, so had that been in the plan all along?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean for me it was always that I I'm not a skier in that sense. I mean, I know how to ski and I train on skis and I'm a mountain guy, but but this kind of you know terrain like deep skiing um is is not something I I'm I'm good in and and interested in as well. And for me, flying is kind of the addition I really want to explore and and and bring to the mountain. And and this was always my plan and my my my big dream to to be able to fly down of one of these big, big mountains. And on on the other hand, I know it's so it's it's so unlikely in a way that you have these perfect conditions you need. I mean, you need perfect conditions to go up to climb these mountains from the snow, from the from the weather, from all, but if you want to fly down, you need even this next uh better conditions and and component, which is the the wind, and not only the wind at the summit, but also the wind down in the valley. And so you need like there, there's like such a big puzzle piece which need again to be right to be able to do that. So for me, it's uh also mentally, I really always try not to think about it on the way up. I just try to kind of you know really put that to the side because it takes so much energy away from me to always think if the conditions are now right or not for flying. Is the wind like weak, strong enough from the right direction? And is the end down in the valley, is it now maybe too strong that I cannot land and all of this. So I really try to put that aside and focus on on the moment and just on the climb. And then on the summit, I'm kind of okay, and now I can put energy and into like this decision-making um process. So and and yeah, like last the last times I was there, it was always to not ride from the conditions, to fly even from 7-5 or whatever. And and now, yeah, finally when we we make it our our summit day was really such a good good day from the weather this year. And uh, and there was yeah, just a little bit too much wind on the on the summit and was too gusty. And and and in this attitude, the wing is really very very sensitive to being launched and for the for the takeoff, as well. My brain, of course, is not as fast as uh down here, and the reaction time is just, I think, is way way slower. So it was a little bit over my kind of limit what I what I was willing to risk. So that's why I went a little bit further down with my friends. They started to ski from the summit, and I walked down, and then at 7,700 meters, there was this nice steep snow field where I then was able to take off and then yeah, fly, fly down from that high altitude. First, like traversing the Dirmir side, like where this long, long traverse back is, which my friends had to do, Boris and Tiffa, and and then traversing over the Monsino call to the Rupert side. And and yeah, in 30 minutes I was back in base camp. I was back for dinner. I landed right next to our base camp in this green meadow, and our cook and our kitchen boy were totally surprised because they didn't know that we were coming while I was coming there, and and they were like running towards me. And and yeah, it was a big, big moment of relief that that that worked. And I had dinner in base camp. It was crazy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that is amazing. 30 minutes after being on the summit or after taking off. Wow. Yeah, yeah. And so and then it took, you said, another couple days for your partners to manage to get down.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, exactly. I mean, they there you see, like it took them three more days to get down, and and that's due to the last day they needed really to wait again for the lower part to freeze overnight. So they could have been down a day earlier, but but they had to wait for for again for otherwise it would be too much rockfall in the in the lower part below 6,000 meters. And and then on the trowers, they had to make a bivy, but we had prepared for that. We had we brought a tent, uh mattress, a stove, um uh up to uh even to the summit. We had it on the summit with us. We carried all the way, and so we were that we were always able to, or whenever we felt, okay, we are too tired, we we need a break, we need to wait for the next day that we are able to just like yeah, put the pen and and be safe and and recover a little bit. And they used this hand on on the way back there in the traverse at 7,650 meters, just before the really kind of, you know, there are always then these small upper sections, and it's and it's brutal. It takes so much out of you, and you can't can't imagine. It's only like 50 meters up, and you you think, hey, what what is this? But up there and after this long day, I mean, in the end, it took us from our last canvas, 7450 meters, to the summit 14 hours for comparison from the south coal to the summit of Everest, it took me 12 hours. So it was a longer day just uphill um compared to to Everest. And and for me, as well, it felt it felt harder mentally, but as well as physically than Everest. We were you had, I don't know, like I was at one point, I was really having a low, and luckily our team worked so well that whenever somebody had a low, because everybody of us was at one point in this 14 hours the feeling really like, uh, damn, I I just want to kind of you know turn around. But but but lucky always the other two were just like going for it. And and at that point, yeah, the others felt really good. And so they were just making making the track and just going, going. And I I tried to to follow, and and I I felt, well, I'm really again feeling a little bit low in energy. So I I banged in one of these bigger jails from uh from uh precision fuel and and I really really like them, and they have these big pouches so where you can uh close the tap as well, so you don't have the you can just eat as much as you feel and want, and and that really worked for me at this moment really well because I felt afterwards, okay, now I feel again having having more energy. And yeah, so that that that was yeah, like the the summit day.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and that interestingly on the nutrition side of things, I know that's much more there's not a lot more information today, and more people are tuned in to um nutrition for these um ultra endurance type of an event where you're out for many, many hours at a time. And I think that you know I'm far from any kind of an expert on it, but I have been working with some, I'm coaching some athletes that are working with some very high-level um nutritionists that work with, you know, Tour de France writers and um other ultra runners. So I'm getting a little bit more knowledgeable on the subject, but but certainly one of the things that I think pertains directly to you, David, that I hadn't understood as well as I probably could have if I'd been more interested in that subject, but is that when you go higher in altitude, your dependence on glucose for sugar goes way up. Um, you know, the your your fat metabolism is just too difficult, apparently. So you're even though we like to be well fat adapted, and that certainly helps on you know in some aspects of of mountaineering, um, that at certainly at really high altitudes, like you're at, the you know, sugar is what you need. You have to have that to keep moving.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, definitely. And I would love to eat even more, but I think what's the caveat and the kind of you know, the the footnote on all this nutritious thing for altitude is that we are we try to to do the same what the ultra runners, the ironmans, the tour de France people are doing, but we have this limitation so that we we don't have aid stations. We need to to carry our water for the whole day. And and if we don't carry the water, we need maybe to stop always and melt again water and and and takes uh takes endless time, um melt snow into water, not melt water. And and so and and if I I would love to eat like 100 grams per hour carbs, but in the end, I would need to start for like if I planned for a four-day ascent, I I I don't start, I can't lift my backpack anymore because I need to uh it will be too heavy, it will be full of jazz. And and and and so and and and and then like if I eat more carbs, and in the end, I also need to drink way more, but but I just know I I'm not able to drink this much. And and I try sometimes, and and maybe I need just to really be there even more strict and and and train this and and be better in in drinking more, but I hardly manage to drink my 1.3 liter fluid, which I normally have, because I have this 750 mil like soft flask and a 500 mil uh Nylgine bottle. So so and and also I see when friends take more because they think they drink more, they they never manage to drink more. Like they they arrive in the next camp with with like a liter still in their backpack, and you carry just this this stupid weight there. And and so I think it's it's it's easy on on paper. And I every time I'm like, okay, I need to drink more, I need to eat more, but in reality, somehow it's it's so so difficult to improve it. And now, for example, I have like the third day where I really know exactly what I what I ate during the two camps, and I had I managed to get 60 grams per hour carbs, um, with a mix of gels and some chews, um, like these soft bars, and and I'm I'm pretty happy with that, and I felt felt really good. And and yeah, so to improve that and and as well drink enough, um, I think it's really, really challenging.
SPEAKER_01:What were you eating um in the bivouac when you had your tent?
SPEAKER_00:That's a good question because this is so so difficult what what to eat. Uh the appetite is just like not there. And every free-stride meal, I mean, it's so so difficult to get down for me. So I I had now some really super easy plain food. I I just bought from the supermarket, um, this uh mashed potato flakes. You just add a little bit of water, you have mashed potato, I bring salt and pepper, like with the small sashes you get on, I don't know, on airports or on on some you know, fast food diners. Like you take some when you're in this, is they're really good. And and and that's yeah, that that's something. I have this freeze-dried Japanese rice, which is totally plain freeze-dried rice, again, just salt and pepper in it. I bring some small cheese with me, some like took works really well. This dry cracker but salty is is really good. And then now this time I really enjoyed to bring like clear soup um bouillon, like this kind of cubes, like soup, and just like have this clear soup and put um uh like some crackers inside these cotons with you know some some of this stuff. So that would that work really, really well. And then again, I I really some and I eat like a gel or something like this just in camp because it's uh it's the thing which goes the easiest down and and has a lot of calories. So yeah, that's kind of the the the things I'm able to eat there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, alt um appetite suppression is uh definitely a big problem at uh at high altitude. And yeah. So did you lose much weight on this trip?
SPEAKER_00:Uh I didn't lose too much. I have to say I'm pretty happy on this. I mean, I lost for sure like a couple of kilos, but but but nothing compared to, for example, Everest, where I lost uh way, way more. So Here I'm really happy. And I think it's due to the fact that that we had this pre the automatization in Nepal, where we stayed in a lodge where you can eat really well and a lot of normal food. Then these days in between Nepal and Pakistan, where we stayed for a couple of days in Kathmandu, you can, you know, you just kind of try to fill up um your stores as best as possible with with pizza, with just like good, good, good food. And then in Onangapaba, the base camp is so low, so it's 3,600 meters, that again you just don't lose constantly compared to when you're above, I don't know, in a in a base cam at 5,000 meters somewhere. So I think this this helped a lot for this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I would imagine it did. Yeah, the you've done this pre the sort of acclimatization training camp many times now in Nepal since I've started working with you. And um they've they've evolved a little bit though. They mean seven, eight, ten years ago, whenever the the first one I worked with you on in Uli was uh like that, yeah, it was a pre-Shishipangma or no. Yes, yeah. And then and you guys, that was a lot of there was running involved and quite a bit of running there. But now you've have you uh shifted away from running at this camp and more climbing on purpose, or is it just that Uli like to run, or what what's made you move that direction?
SPEAKER_00:No, it's it's a it's a good question, and definitely it's not because I don't like running, I would love to run there, but I realized, I mean, there are like two types of training camps. You can go there, and sometimes I do this for just the sake of really training, not for doing a pre-acclimatization or an acclimatization. And and and when I do just training, I can go running, I can kind of you know really like work myself in in altitude, and and you get mega tired back home, but you will have time to recover. But the moment I go and really need the acclimatization and go directly after to climb the 8,000 meter peak, then I really be super conservative in the way of like when to push there and have a lot of recovery days and really respect this recovery time. You need to to not work yourself um in the in the ground. And I I think I I mean I haven't spoken, but you know, the the the guys who did now try the FKT on Everest, and I I think they just uh they they did too much. I see so often that the people now yeah, go there, do something similar, but they they they they fall into the trap of like, hey, it's so nice to run around here. Now you feel slowly good in altitude, so let's move, let's do do a fast time up and down, whatever. And and it's so tempting. And I and but if you're if your really objective is to to climb by 8,000 meter peak, uh you need to be super careful with how far you you push yourself out there. And and I just remember that when I was with Kilian, we we talked about it, and and he had like way more emphasis on these recovery days, which I never thought he he would do, but it it's for a reason, I think. And so that's why I changed a way or I s I I focus now more on on really the acclimatization when it's for a it's always a meter peak and not on the kind of moving crazy around.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think that's that's a really good point because I I've just seen this for over the years. I mean, I've ex I've done this mistake myself, I've seen you make this mistake that you go on an expedition, or it doesn't even have to be an expedition, maybe it's a relative, but some sort of higher altitude climb. And you've trained really hard, you get really fit, and you get there and you're excited, you feel really good, and there's a temptation, like you're saying, it's um you're in this beautiful environment, and maybe you're with people that you feel some little competition with, so you start pushing, and it's it doesn't feel like you're pushing, but you know, maybe your heart rate's low, or you're you know, you can say, Well, I'm walking very slowly. How can this be pushing the pace? But what happens is your body's still struggling to get used to the altitude, and so when you have the stress of acclamatization piled on top of the stress of exercise as well, then you it's it's overtaxing what your body can handle, even though it doesn't really feel so much like that. And so, what I've told people, and I know you had a kind of a you know, you can fill me explain more on this story, but what I've tried to tell people is you just have to go ridiculously easily, easy when you first show up there. Um, I remember working with, you know, it's coaching Adrian Ballinger before his um attempt on Everest or his climb of Everest without oxygen. And, you know, and he's been to Everest many times, always with oxygen, though. And I just told him when he got to base camp, you know, I think I said some ridiculously low heart rate for him. I said, you know, for this whole first week, I don't want you to go above whatever 110 or something beats per minute, you know, and he's sort of walking around and he's even slower than the clients he's there with. Um, but it and it pays off. And and I remember with you, um, you had a kind of a uh light bulb going off one time when you went to Nepal with Monica, your wife, girlfriend, partner. Um, and you were you said, Well, I'm just gonna do all my acclimatization hiking with Monica, who's not as fit as you, of course. And um, and you said, Well, this felt this was this worked way better when you went than to the climb.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, this was then when I really could climb Everest in in 22, and and after as it was my third attempt on Everest, so and and the years before, I was way more on this kind of hey, I want to move and I'm super prepared and fit, so let's let's you know do uh do like a super fast time on Island Peak just because anyway I'm here and I'm fit and I want to climb Everest afterwards. And then when when we tracked and did the acclimatization with Monica, I I had all these days where we really just tracked super nice and easy, easy pace. And and there I had maybe one time on Mera Peak where I just did one day pushing up and down, but then I had nice long recovery. And and so that's that's where I like you said, like I had this afterwards. I really saw uh how much better I am when when I'm doing it in that way, and don't push there in like for, I don't know, 95% at least of the time. And for sure, you can have a day where you a little bit play, but you need just to then account for enough rest days afterwards and make sure you you get really a long recovery. And again, this recovery time is just so much longer in altitude compared to what you have down here. And and and this is the danger because you feel uh after the same amount of time, more or less recovered, and you sit in these lodges and you have this nice environment, and you're like, come on, like why should I sit another day here? But it totally pays off.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I on the opposite end of that, I remember, I think it was the year you went there with Killian, that you were you went early. Killian stayed home and kept um acclimating in his tent at home. Yeah, you went to to the kumbu a bit or before him. And I remember one day you were telling me, Well, I felt so good. I went out and I did this really hard intervals uphill, and I was kind of going, Oh shit, that wasn't such a good idea. But I didn't want to, I didn't say anything to you at the time because I didn't want to to hurt your mental state, but I was just thinking, oh, that's not good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And then I remember I paid bitterly. I we I had to go even further down to Pangboitche. It's it's just at 4,000 meters and stay there for and I had like I don't know, four days really doing nothing and and just kind of you know recovering from that. So so yeah, I I failed it right away. So I hope like people listen to that, they don't make that mistake and and and yeah, take something away from it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, when I think it was 2000, I think it was around 2000 or 2001, uh Steve and I were in Tibet, Steve House and I were in Tibet, and we were uh we were going into Chooyu, and um it's kind of a long trek up a valley, you know, not very, not super high elevation, probably 5,000, you know, I think base camp there is 5,500 meters or so. Um the valley's pretty flat, but on the hike in one day, Steve got really sick, like you know, vomiting and and having real problems. So I just said, hey, drop your pack here, I'll come back and get it. Let's just get you to the camp. The next camp will set up tent. And so, you know, kind of he was stumbling along. We got to camp, set up camp. And so I was and I was feeling like you were feeling super fit before this trip. So, what did I do? I dropped my pack. I ran, you know, five kilometers back to get Steve's pack, and then I ran back to the tent to the camp. And I was a wreck for three days, you know, from running a few kilometers um at 5,000 meters. Yeah, it really it's we have to be more respectful of that um and the effect it has on us. I think a lot of people who haven't much experience at altitude don't respect it enough. And also, and again, because I've worked, we typically in our business are able to make people very fit before they go on these climbs. And so it's important that we give them this caution. Okay, just because you're fitness, you're fit, don't try to demonstrate that fitness down low on the mountain. Save that for the summit day. Um exactly.
SPEAKER_00:And I think the other thing, what is really important that the that I mean, you you told me that I think one one time or a couple of times probably, and and that you know, you don't lose your fitness right away. If you if you put like all this work consistently in before, you don't lose this in in like four rest days in altitude. And and but that is kind of thing even I have like you sit there and you're like, oh my god, I just can look at my legs, how they shrink day by day because they the muscles disappear. But yeah, they for sure, and they they disappear a little bit, but it doesn't go this fast. And and and so yeah, you you you should relax uh more in that in that way that that your fitness won't disappear like in a blink of uh of a rest day in altitude.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, let's let me ask you a couple of questions about your I mean your ethics on these mountains, because I think that's something that people need to hear more about. Um, you know, with the I mean, I know a lot of people are most of the people that are listening to this are going to be involved on some kind of commercial guided expedition. Um and which is fine, as you and I have talked about many times. That's a it's a but it's a different kind of mountaineering than sort of the ethics that you adhere to. And yeah, I know you have some strong feelings about this. And how do you like where do you set your limits? What do you what's the approach you take that makes you feel like, okay, this was a successful climb. Yeah, I know that you you're very committed to doing these things on your own, unsupported. But um, yeah, why don't you expand on that a little bit, if you would?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I I think I want to start with that that the beauty in mountaineering, in whatever form we do, is that we don't have any roots. So we can we can make our rules by ourselves, but that brings a certain amount of responsibility of being, I think, very transparent and and clear in the way we do things out there. Because I think everybody who moves in the mountain knows exactly when they in in quotations cut corners and and make their life easier or use something which is like like yeah, like uh a different different help or or or way of climbing climbing these mountains. So I think, and for me, this is uh the number one thing I really tried to be very transparent and clear. So when I and when I climbed Everest, I'm I think I was very clear like what help I got, that I used the fixed ropes, which other people, you know, there you have other like always a team um um fixes the mountain. So I use the fixed ropes. Of course, I benefited from that I didn't have to break a single meter of trail. And and but on the other hand, for me it was important that I carry all my my stuff by myself. I don't have a high-altitude porter, I don't have a shepper, I I I I have my one tent with me. I I don't have any help and melting water snow, um and in pitching the tent. And of course, I never used and I never will use, I think, oxygen. Um that's for me, it's just it's it's it's doping and uh and it takes away from me the challenge these mountains have, because the challenge is the thin air, the challenge is not the difficulty on most of the roots. Uh it's it's just that there is so little air, and that makes everything so much more difficult. So if I use oxygen, I take away from this. If somebody wants to plant with oxygen and wants to use the shepper and and and whatever other help they want, I'm absolutely fine with it. Like they experience probably the same joy, the same satisfaction when they reach the summit uh and I do. You know, it's it's but I think we need to distinguish between these different um methods of help. We we can get there because they they just turn a 8,000 meter peak into a six or a 4,000-meter peak if we use oxygen, for example. And that's just a huge, huge difference on it. So for me, the the one dream I had on an 8,000 meter peak was always to climb it in a really light alpine style with a small team without oxygen, obviously, no fixed robes, no porters, and and not via the normal route. And that's why I put so much into Nangap Harvat, because this was for me like yeah, one of these mountains where I see I could do this because we were always alone on on our route, on our side there, except uh the first year in winter when there was this other Polish team. And so for for me, that was why also Nga Parvat is now with this ascent, we have the shell route and alpine style, something I I really I'm so I'm so proud of and and so happy I could prove mainly to myself that I'm able to do this. And and just for transparency, um uh um when I talk alpine style, uh, because for purist um alpinist maybe out there, this is not any more alpine style what we did because we've been, we arrived in base camp, and then the next day we went up to 6,000 meters and and checked the conditions of the route, and we also put like a small deposit there. Um it's at our camp at 6,000 meters. We didn't, you know, we didn't establish camp or anything, but we just made this deposit there. Then we went down, and then a week later we went for a summit push. So that's where, in the pure sense, we kind of sabotaged our our alpine style because normally that's not what you allow to do, that you check out the route before, but we didn't put a single meter of fixed robes and and so for us it still counts as an as an alpine style, but again, that other people need to to judge and and decide.
SPEAKER_01:But like you said, there are there's no real rules, um, but there is a pretty critical um community, you know, people are watching to see.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly, yeah, exactly. And and I think it's also, you know, it's it's also okay. You know, it's for me it's it's really I I find it a little bit um how how should I say it's it's really difficult because it's the moment you you you raise your voice or you criticize and or you point out, it's not often even criticizing, it's just like, hey, I want to make clear that this or that is maybe not correct. Immediately in the in the community, it's it's perceived as as jealousy or or you you don't kind of you know, yeah. And and that is, I think, uh it's quite difficult then to really improve our way of how we uh how we evolve as a as a community, as uh as a sport as well, when it's immediately always just like you know, yeah, when critic, even a positive kind of critic is is is perceived as as you're just jealous about this achievement of somebody else.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, and this has been, I mean, climbing, the history of climbing is full of you know these kinds of controversies and how people did ascents. And you know, I I'm old enough now that I lived through you know the period where you uh you know, sticky rubber was not allowed. I mean, having sticky rubber on your shoes was you know, can that was considered cheating, or chalk. Using chalk was considered cheating in rock climbing. And um, so yeah, I think this is and it's that's probably because we are involved in a sport that doesn't have a hard set of rules. You know, they're so there there's no idea where's where are the boundaries, and you know, certainly you know, another question would be or another situation, I mean, rap bolting, repel, bolting on repel. And that was completely, you know, you would have been when I grew up in Boulder, Colorado, you would have been hung if you bolted a route from you know by uh repelling. Um, and and that just wasn't considered. And now, I mean, but but the ethic, of course, changed then during the late 80s, and now there's so much more climbing opportunity for people because there's all these bolted routes out there that would never be climbed, you could never climb them from the ground up. So I think there's some pluses and minuses to all of this, but it is, I think, something to be aware of in our funny little sport, which it's hard to call it a sport, but um, because it because it doesn't have rules.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But it's but it's good. And I also like, you know, it's good to have this controversy. It's always good for you know for a talk, for a chat, and to discuss this thing. So it's it's part of it, and I'm okay with it.
SPEAKER_01:But I think that I think your solution to this kind of controversy of just be transparent about what you do. And you know, don't try to cover up things. And and I think as long as people are transparent, then we can know that you know you know how to compare one ascent to another ascent. Um, whereas, you know, if it was in running, we know that you can compare directly this time to that time for a runner.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And if you're, you know, if no one is using blood doping or some other uh artificial means, you know that, oh, that we can compare these two people's uh races. Whereas in this, we have so much, as you said, much more gray area around what's permitted and what's not permitted, that it just, yeah, having being transparent, I believe, is the best solution, then you're not being judgmental to really with of other people and what they do. Um exactly. Well, let's talk a little bit about training because that's that's the one thing I do know something about. And um you know a lot about, yeah. We have we have experimented, I mean, uh, with you and and others, uh, you know, lots of different types of of training methods, and you know, and they evolved, you know, and there's some of the things we do now that wouldn't have worked so well for you in the past. But you know, the one of the things that we settled on this year um was weighted hiking on a stair machine. And I want you, I mean, I know this is a miserable type of training that um I have a hard time recommending it for many people, even though it's incredibly effective. But why don't you talk? You're the one who had the firsthand experience of doing this.
SPEAKER_00:Um well, I I mean this is something we we never did in this way before, I think. And and I and it because it's really such a brutal suffer fest, uh like an hour on this on this machine with extra kilo in your in your backpack, and it's and it's hot and humid. And I I mean I was sweating sometimes. I was like, I I couldn't believe it. It was embarrassing in the in the gym. I was this huge puddle around me. I mean, people came up to me in the gym and are like, what are you doing here? Like this is like and uh but but it it is so I I feel it is effective in in two ways. The one is of course like um your your endurance, your your your physical side, but but the mental side I felt now having that this work I was done and suffered through it really gave me always a boost when I did more or less the exact movement. And this is something I we knew that on Nangap, there are a lot of these sections where it's exactly this kind of movement, you know, making the trail uh at this kind of, you know, in this steepness. And and and when I was in in on the mountain, I really had a lot of times this moment where I remembered like how miserable and what a suffer pest this this workouts were, where I thought to myself, okay, come on, this was so brutal. Now you know why you you did it, and now you can kind of you know apply the strengths you you gained in these workouts. And so I think that that was really helped me a lot when I when I had these moments when you're like, oh my god, how long is this slope here? And you need to make the trail and come on, you keep going. And you're like, hey, you did this for an hour, so now you can do it at least for like 20 minutes or something like this, and then you do a break. And and so that was was really the mental side of it. The mental gains I I had from these workouts were equally good as as the other side. And and and then what we figured out throughout the after a couple of these workouts, I changed, I don't know, you remember, I changed to ankle weights. And and I think this is something I also really, really can recommend people to to at least give it a try. Um, because it felt to me way better because I didn't have to load my backpack this heavy, which is always then is really like hard for for your shoulders, for your hips, for you just like for for all of this. And in the end, I had 15 kilos in my like one five, 15 kilos in my backpack, and then I had two kilos uh on each anchor, so it's four kilos uh there. And and I think there is a like uh you can uh calculate how much weight on your on your feed um equal a weight in your backpack, and I think it's one to four or something like this, or even five. Like it's wonderful, because you just like I think one to five, no, and so it's like a lot of more weight, and also it simulates in a way that you have you know, mountain boots and crampons and snow sticking to the crampons and all of this. So um, so I think that that was for me the perfect simulation of what I had then to to deal with in the mountains, and so yeah, the best training for it.
SPEAKER_01:And and I will just take a moment to talk a little bit about my thinking on that method. So over the years, I've tried a lot of different training methods with people. One of the things, and this is going to be more in the theoretical side of our discussion or about training, is that I believe that something that we all know that training specifically for a sport is usually going to give the best outcome. So, you know, if you're training for a swimming race, you don't spend all your time riding a bicycle. I mean, that's just you know, those are two dissimilar, um both of them are great exercises, both of them will help you be fitter, but preparing for a swimming race on a bicycle is a bad idea. Um and but what I have discovered is you can take this notion of what we call specificity, you can take it too far. And I've learned over the last probably 15 years that there are in some instances it is worth sacrificing some specificity to gain more control over the training. And so you know, in this, let's just use this example of the stair machine. You know, like we we used to with you have you hike up steep hills, and I still believe that's great training for most people is hiking steeply uphill with a heavy pack. That's a pretty simple exercise. However, we don't have a lot of control when you're doing that, you know, because it's uh every step is a little different. And and while that's beneficial to some extent from a the technical standpoint, you know, balance and you know, walking on rough terrain, that's much more like mountaineering. And but it what I've discovered, and not just with this workout, but with there's been others that I use with other athletes, like for runners especially, where let's just get a lot of control over what you're doing. In this case, every single step is exactly the same on that machine. And that means that the those bustles that are propelling you uphill, they get massive load and repetitive over and over this exact same movement. And I think there's some real benefit to that because the movement outside on rough terrain, not every step is going to be slightly different. So the the muscles are going to be getting worked in a slightly different way. So we have two things that we can do. One is the the the sheer repetition, the thousands of steps you're taking that are all exactly the same. And then the other is you know, we can very carefully measure, you know, because the machine tells you, okay, how many they usually talk called, they do it in, I don't know what the machine you were using in Chamani was doing, but they often tell in the number of floors that you've climbed. And, you know, Avan, I don't really know how they're calculating that. Typically, a floor is three meters. In you know, in architectural terms, but I don't know on those machines what a floor means. But as long as you're comparing the number of floors you climb this week to the number of floors you climb last week, and this, then you and you can also increase the speed of those treadmills, you know, very carefully, and those stair machines. And so we we can have this control of the movement, control of the speed, and control of the distance that would be much harder to replicate outside in the in the environment. Now you have the advantage that you're already technically very proficient at moving in rough terrain outside. So we could, in your case, if I was very comfortable, let's sacrifice some of that very specific movement outside to give us this more controlled um environment, a more controlled workout. Now, for people who are not accustomed to walking on rough terrain or with crampons on steep slopes, you still need to have that. The stairmaster is not going to prepare you for the technical side of mountaineering. But but I just really think that there's in some cases real benefit to sacrificing specificity in um to gain some control over the exercise.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah. I I agree on this. A couple of things. I think still the outside works out work out sometimes, especially like you said, when you're not used to it, if you can get them in, depends also like where you live, you know, if you if you have a slope. Especially for me, for example. I remember sometimes I go out when we have fresh snow and shamuni, and and there is like a lot of trail breaking. And just to get this mentally component of trail breaking, every step is maybe a little bit different. You sink in that you also, you know, have experienced that is, I think, really important because when you are then really on your expedition on the mountain and you have to do it there for the first time, you suddenly be like, oh my god, this is so hard, and you're so slow and it's so exhausting. So you need to know also this side to it. But but definitely the the the treadmill gives you this no mercy kind of attitude where where outside I just slow slowly down, down, down. And on the treadmill, I I have to actively press the kind of speed down kind of you know um toggle to make it slower, which gives you this extra kind of boost of really, really being on this limit. And I think we should also talk about because whenever I posted these workouts, I got a lot of questions like what kind of protocol you use for this. And I always use like an hour in a constant trying to hold a constant high pace so I can go from the beginning to the end in in this pace, always kind of on my on my limit of what I can do for for one hour. And and I don't know, like I your take on on this kind of you know, like the exact protocol or execution, if because people were like, hey, you do intervals and you go faster, slower, faster, slower. For me, I I found this the most uh effective, or that's at least what I did.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and that's what we I think you and I talked about this before, but that's that's what I have found. Um even for mountain runners, we don't do intervals on stair machines. It um I think the the benefit, especially, and especially for mountaineers, comes from just grinding away for and an hour is plenty. Trust us, you know, you don't need to spend three hours on a stair machine. Um, that would be that would be real punishment to do something really long. Um, it's I think it's also nice to have a little entertainment to help break up the monotony of it all. But we have found um, you know, and I even for outdoor uphill hiking with a steep weight, a steep, steep trail, heavy pack, I've discovered that you know, a thousand meters or roughly an hour for most people is is plenty of training stimulus. You don't going way beyond that doesn't gain you very much. Um and you know, I want to go back to the specificity component you're talking about, you know, braking trail. Yeah, that is critical. You need to have some of those types of skills, like walking on crampons and all of that before you go attempt these big mountains. But I had a guy one time I was working with who had no mountaineering experience, but he lived near an earthen dam, you know, not a big concrete dam, but an earthen dam.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And at the base of the dam to stabilize the soil, they had put all of these little rocks that are about, you know, this all like smaller than a soccer ball. And so I had him going up and down and traversing, walking on this loose, you know, what we in in the mountains we would call that scree or or talus.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But I had him traversing around on this stuff with a pack on. And I, you know, not many people are going to have access to something like that. But you know, if you're creative, you can find ways to you know walk on this rough type of terrain. One of the problems I think many modern mountaineers who go on guided expeditions who don't have a lot of experience, there's a big difference between walking on pavement and sidewalks and walking in the mountains. And it takes a lot, you kind of need to be efficient at that type of walking. And most of us don't spend very much time. And you're out there almost every day in the mountains, but most people don't have that opportunity. And I've been trying to come up with ways of helping people learn that. And unfortunately, I have not been able to find anything we can do in a gym that can replicate that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, in a gym it's difficult, but I but what I can recommend as well, and I did it by myself sometimes for workouts for exactly this kind of ME upel workouts. I use scrampons also in the summer on uh on a if it's a grassy slope, you can go really, really steep. Um and and and you train again the same movement as it would be hard snow. You have a pair, I have a pair of really old grampons, which are I don't mind you know what to do with, but I have the same footwear and I have grampons on my feet, and and you can front point or diagonal technique and really, really can do a great simulation of being in in the mountains with grampons. And I see it on the normal routes, like on Everest, I saw it again and again. The moment you know you have the yellow band where it's a little bit rocky on on the normal route from the south side. You have you have around the Hillary step, and below there were these kind of sections where where it was like loose, uh loose rock. And the people were struggling with this terrain just from their technical ability, because they have a lot of people which have the first time in their life grump bones. And in snow, it's kind of it's relatively easy to get into that technique and in this groove. But the moment you have suddenly like a little bit rock, it's you need to to know how to use these uh things on your feet. And and so I can just encourage people to train this, and you can yeah, like take a pair of old crampons or sacrifice one pair and and make them to your kind of you know summer crampons and uh and and and and yeah, go out there, find some whatever slope and and and walk around with them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, if people want to see a picture of you doing this, um I used a photograph of you training this way on grass with a heavy pack to as to illustrate the article on our website about muscular endurance training. So if folks want to just see see what I'm talking about, there's a picture on the website, and just go look for the muscular endurance uh workout. Uh maybe what I'll do is I'll uh we'll link to it in the description of this uh talk. So you can just click on it and go right there. Um, you know, and one other specific thing, my before my wife went to Everest in was that 2002, I believe, um I set up a ladder in the backyard so that she could mean that's mean she was very comfortable in the mountains. Climbing and moving around with crampons was not a big issue for her. But most mountaineers will not encounter a situation where they have to walk on ladders um in a normal climbing situation. So we did a little training just in the backyard, putting a ladder up with a hand a rope hand line so she could get used to stepping. I've never done it other than in my backyard. Um, I've never been on Everest, but that seemed to it all helped her because when she got there, it's like, oh, okay, I know what this is gonna feel like.
SPEAKER_00:If for sure, it's all this like every small detail you can kind of train and simulate and and prepare mentally and physically up front will will just take away a little bit of pressure, energy when you're really on the mountain. So for sure, all of these things. I mean, for me is also I'm always surprised that people not more kind of go and sleep a night outside in the winter in a tent with a sleeping bag and try to figure out how to you know get into the cold boots in the morning and how does that feel like how can I be efficient in in all these small things? Because in the end, on an 8,000 meter peak, the smallest uh mistake can can cost you your summit. And I've seen it again and again and again that that people underestimate all these small details, and then they they wonder why they had to turn around.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that just reminded me of when I was a kid, I was um was planning a winter ascent of a big wall um in Colorado on this Longs Peak on the Diamond. And so I went and set up a hammock on my back porch and started sleeping in the hammock in the winter time, just so you know it was a climbing type big wall hammock, not a not a resting, not a summertime hammock. And just to get used to, okay, I'm gonna be spending nights in this hammock. Um, I need to be able to function, you know. Like you said, if you drop a boot in trying to put your boots on in the morning, that's gonna be a big problem. Um so yeah, it was we can do some of this sort of training without having to have mountains nearby. Um a lot of people live in where I would call what I call terrain-challenged environment and where they just don't have access to this kind of terrain.
SPEAKER_00:Um for sure. There I feel very uh lucky and and grateful to to be always surrounded by mountains, more or less, and and have the opportunity to go right there. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, what are your plans next? I mean, I I think one of the things you and I have discussed, and we should we should be fully transparent, is that you know after a big expedition like this, it's time for a break. Um, you know, mental and physical break, and you know the the routine and the monotony of training can get to you. And especially for endurance training, where it's very repetitive, it's kind of boring, it's not very exciting. I mean, these things that we do often, they don't make good YouTube videos. Um and they're just not very sexy. But they're but they're very taxing mentally and physically. And so I'm a big believer after a major event like this is you just gotta step away, take a break, don't just dive, even though maybe you're excited about your next goal. But you know, do you you've you're in that stage right now, correct?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm I mean, I you know, I feel the urge of of that I want to move, that I want to get in shape again, and all of this. But like like you said, we said, okay, we don't put anything in training peaks. I mean, I upload my exercise who at the moment, you know, I go biking when I feel today, the night day for biking, I go for a one and a half hour run or something like this. I do a little bit, started to do a little bit of strengths, you know, slowly getting some some muscles back. And but but just like, you know, by feel more or less, and not in this way that I see on training peaks. Okay, that's my workout for tomorrow, that's my workout for the day after, that's for the and and so on. So I think I I really uh enjoyed that at the moment. And at the moment, really it just needs a little bit of time to process uh the whole kind of you know, Nanga Power story, because uh it was really it's such a such a big dream I I could fulfill there and and uh and yeah, like all these details which suddenly kind of you know you remember and come up, and and you look some some videos and and and pictures from it, and you're like, oh my god, this was this moment and that. And so all of this at the moment is uh still happening, and I I enjoy this this uh this time and and be yeah a little bit more relaxed about what comes next. And and I haven't uh I haven't decided what what what's next from like the big expeditions, and but there will be definitely some because I still have yeah a lot of a lot of ideas and a lot of objectives and mountains I I want to go either back or or see the first time. And and so yeah, I for sure it it won't be long that I kind of start to plan the next thing. And that's then also the time when we when we sit properly down and and pan out our our training again.
SPEAKER_01:There's I find your Instagram, you know, and I'm not a big social media person at all, but I find your Instagram post really entertaining. Some you know, whether they're educational or just beautiful or you know, fun to look at. So tell people how they can find you on social media.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, for me, the only social media I have is Instagram because it's the only one which I in enjoy also also doing it, and there I share, share my kind of yeah, my mountaineering life and and what I do there. And this is David underscore, and then my family name, G-O-E-W-T-L-E-R. And that's how you find me there. And uh, and yeah, if you uh that's also the only uh platform where I reply to messages. If you find me on Facebook or somewhere else, I uh I never look into that. So yeah, go go for for Instagram to reach out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I definitely recommend that to folks. Um yeah, thank you. The wealth of experience that you have in this um area is so tremendous. Um, I hope that we can get you back sometime to talk a little more about training, some of the specifics and other things we've done. I know I've taken up a lot of your time this this morning for me, this afternoon for you. Um and you know, I it may be that people want to, you know, contact you to ask questions, but I think what we might, you know, we've been doing this podcast about once a month, maybe yeah, about once a month, where we we have we take questions from listeners and from the audience, you know, with it and they're usually obviously they're normally training related. Um, but if people have specific questions that they would like to ask David, um you know, send them in to um the ask to the Ask Evoke or to the coach at evokeendurance.com, and I can pass them on to David, and I'm sure he'd be happy to give you some pointers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, for sure. More than welcome to to answer every question coming your way, my way. And yeah, thanks again for having me here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, thank you very much, and um, please give my best to Monica.
SPEAKER_00:Will do. Okay, talk soon.
SPEAKER_01:All right, bye.