The Chef, the Farmer, and the Food Safety Sage Unit - Meet Kiley Harper-Larsen

There's nothing like a freshly reimagined classic to tantalize the taste buds—just ask Chef Jefferson, whose culinary wizardry with dishes like Bistecca La Romano set our production day dishes ablaze with flavor. Taking you behind the scenes, we're raising a toast to the hardworking heroes of the Farmers Craveable Dinners Event, Chef Jefferson, Evan, and Jess,  Pull up a chair and join us as we unpack the prep, the people, and the passion that made our soiree unforgettable, with special insights from food safety oracle, Kiley Harper-Larson, who shines a light on the crucial interplay between water and agriculture.

Gathering around the table takes on new meaning when you've waded through the waters of farm management and pathogen risks, just like we did with Kiley . This episode stitches together the practical wisdom of water testing and strategic planning, ensuring the journey from farm to fork is seamless and safe. We share war s

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:05

Hello, food Fam. This is the Walk and Talk podcast, your favorite food podcast, and I'm your host, carl Fiedini. Welcome to the show. We're podcasting onsite at Ibis Images Studios, where food photography comes alive and I get to eat it. First things first. The Farmers Craveable Dinners series.

Speaker 1: 1:24

First event was a big smash and man, it was great. Big thanks to Marvin at Kehaba Club, penisla Food Service, sweetwater, organic Coffee and Noble Citrus for being top shelf event sponsors. Love you guys. A special thanks to Yee Farms, happy Tales Farms, warden Farms, evans Farms, ohana Fish, tony Couple, life Farm and Jersey Acres Love you guys. Thank you for participating. There is more to come. My goodness, chef Jefferson hit a Homer. Evan and Jess were like rock stars and we're going to get more into the event a little bit later, but I kind of wanted to get that out of the way. Big thanks to a bad ass successful evening. Yes, also on the menu today. And thank you, penisla Food Service for supplying the proteins for this Produccione.

Speaker 1: 2:24

Our food choice this week it's all about old school yummy dishes that we've decided to resurrect and modernize. Also, this week's guest we have the Kylie Harbour Larson. I mean, she is a food safety specialist, extraordinaire expert and an all around amazing human being. We're talking farm production and important and how important water is in food safety at large Side note, at the dinner she I mean she totally bailed me out. So cool Kylie's on deck. Jeff popped the clutch baby, let's roll. What do we got?

Speaker 2: 3:07

Yeah. So I got a call from you and it was just let's do something different. Throwback from the Sizzler days, and you know, sizzler back in the day was just like basically stuck steak grilled and some maybe shrimp and lobster maybe. So I wanted to go deep into the classics and I popped some stuff out there. One of the ones I did was the Bistica La Romano, which was a dish that we did at Brio when I was there and it was like the tender, like tips, pound those out and we put them in between Roma tomatoes that had breadcrumbs. So I wanted to switch it up since we had our guests coming on today.

Speaker 2: 3:43

So I want to do some fried green tomatoes and pimento cheese. Did that differently than we did bacon wrapped, which we unwrapped it because and there was a lot more bacon when you unwrap it it's like five pieces of bacon, a little of asparagus on the bottom, grilled asparagus for the side of Coutrements, and we had two New York strips that we did. Did beef burger and you know, which is known as a peasant dish back in the day, and usually it's usually chuck steak or like a really awful cut and they braise the living daylights out in the stew. I want to do something different, so I did that with the you know seared, and then the last one we did was the New York strip. How do we do?

Speaker 3: 4:24

that one.

Speaker 2: 4:25

I'm having a brain cramp on that one. It was fantastic. What was your favorite? All of them.

Speaker 1: 4:29

Yeah, I mean, the pizziola was was pretty, that's the ones yeah. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm pretty partial to that, you know, kind of thing.

Speaker 2: 4:39

Well, back in the day, when I worked for Paslanas and Costabella, that was the dish we made Teddy and Driozi, which was the nephew of Teddy Falco, who owned it.

Speaker 1: 4:47

You gotta say Teddy and Driozi. You gotta do this.

Speaker 2: 4:51

Teddy used to do it. We had the peppers and tomatoes and onions almost like doing a Chaucer sauce back from the day, but then we put fresh mozzarella on so you had that stretchability and the thing would stretch out. But we used buffalo mozzarella when we did it, so I wanted to pay a little bit in respect to one of my mentors Great guy, anyhow, it was a fun day.

Speaker 1: 5:14

Well, just to kind of recap this last week I was talking to Jeff and John.

Speaker 1: 5:20

I said you know it would be great if we can, like, take a sizzler dish or a Benegans or you know something like that, you know Ponderosa, whatever, like this is one of these old school brands and take a dish that was popular and let's resurrect it, let's make it happen, let's, let's, let's rebuild. You know something like that and, as it turns out and Jeff will explain, it was easier to find dishes, traditional old school dishes, and do that Jeffrey go.

Speaker 2: 5:50

So, like, for instance, salisbury steak was a great one. The problem is is the cut of meat. So if we want to do Salisbury steak, that's more ground beef. But I wanted to do whole muscle, so that's why I kind of switched that way. Remember mother's steaks?

Speaker 1: 6:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:03

I love those two, so I wanted to do that, but I was even thinking chicken fried steak, which is. I got the shake from the both sides of me, both people raising the roof on that one. The one of the ones I also thought about and you and I talked about and we need to do that is the Monte Cristo, monte Cristo.

Speaker 1: 6:21

Yeah, dude, I mean, can we? We have to do that after I go to the doctor's appointment. I just need to make sure I'm good for that.

Speaker 2: 6:28

I need to. I got to get through it. We have to set up John's new toy from his Christmas batch Remember that he got. He's looking at me.

Speaker 1: 6:35

And I'm looking at him. What are you talking about? Which one?

Speaker 2: 6:39

Remember the one that he hid from everyone, when it was that Christmas thing where he wanted to make sure you got it to go home called a fryer.

Speaker 1: 6:45

Oh yeah, the fryer Okay.

Speaker 2: 6:47

Because we need that to actually fry the Monte Cristo.

Speaker 1: 6:48

See when you're talking I automatically go to you know things that are beyond you know, beyond a PG 13, 17.

Speaker 2: 6:56

I know that's usually my repertoire, or my, what I'm known for, bag O tricks is something Look at that have been you know, but no, it was the fryer.

Speaker 1: 7:04

Yeah, Excellent.

Speaker 2: 7:05

Yeah, imagine it with like smoked ham, smoked pork butt and then fry it. Yeah, we need to do that tomorrow.

Speaker 1: 7:15

So it has to be. I'm stuttering over here, so we have to. We have to do this and make it literally like legit. You know, hashtag benignans, yeah, yeah, all of it. He just talked. Did he say something? Yeah, I don't get it, I don't believe it.

Speaker 2: 7:32

On the intro, by the way yeah, that's true too.

Speaker 1: 7:35

By the way, today and I just want to throw this out there and wherever it lands we were talking stacum, right.

Speaker 2: 7:42

Yeah, we mentioned the old stacums, yeah, and then you said, man, we should get some shaved roast beef up in here and do a really nice fat butt sandwich. So you know, stay tuned for that.

Speaker 1: 7:57

All right, jeff man, you did it again. So these dishes, your favorite was which one? Because I want to. We need to start implementing in these. You know opening monologues or you know first segment is more into the recipe part. You know like, where did it come from? Why did you do it? Because it was different? Hey, because we modernized it right. Why, what was the?

Speaker 2: 8:23

Well, I think pre-play presentations I don't think we're. There's nothing in food that we're doing. That's different. I mean, unless you're getting into molecular astronomy, which was for an Adrienne and his brother, that's when things really got changed for food. But food's been food since. Food's been food, correct, it's just play presentations that might be making it elevated as what we were actually looking at. I mean, even though, like beef bourgogneon that's a prime example we were taking a shut steak or a flank steak or even a brisket inside or outside skirt steak, any of those like tough steaks that you're going to braise. That's what it was made for. So then I elevated it by using that beautiful New York strip, from Creekstown, from Peninsula, I think, cut like butter. I don't know if it was choice or prime, but my God, I didn't even need to chew it.

Speaker 1: 9:12

You put it in your mouth and it melts.

Speaker 2: 9:13

It's really.

Speaker 1: 9:14

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 9:16

I mean even having that bacon love. I mean I love bacon but still I think the steak pizza yellow is more of my heart was because of Teddy and Josie and that whole thing with Casabella.

Speaker 1: 9:26

You know my heart was there too. Okay, you know that's off. My heart was there too, but I'll tell you what I did enjoy the bacon. You know slapping up the bacon and all of that.

Speaker 3: 9:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 9:35

It was. It smiles. That's what it is. It's really. It's just making smiles. That's what we do here at the Walk and Talk podcast.

Speaker 2: 9:43

It's just like being at the farmer's craveable dinner. I mean, we made a lot some memories for nine courses.

Speaker 1: 9:51

Let me tell everybody so.

Speaker 2: 9:54

Still trying to recover.

Speaker 1: 9:55

I'm from the industry, right, but the industry for me was 30 years ago, like a long time ago, and this was a nerve-racker because, like all right, who's coming, who's going to show up this food, who's making food, who's serving this food? Because I don't, you know, it really all came together in the end and you know, jeffrey, jeff, you prepped for like a week, you know five days, whatever you know ahead of time this thing was executed so smoothly. Hats off to you. You did, you did a fantastic job.

Speaker 2: 10:31

It wasn't me. I mean it, jess and Evan. Jess and Evan that were the execution part of it.

Speaker 1: 10:38

Yeah, you, you were the field general and, at the end of the day, man, you put it out there and it executed, perfect, perfectly.

Speaker 2: 10:45

Yeah, and it's funny because last night I ended up going what I'm gonna do for dinner. I was bouncing ideas in my head. I'm like I gotta have the fog horn, leg horn. I didn't taste it and all I heard about.

Speaker 1: 10:54

Yeah, I didn't either, was that damn fog horn, leg horn.

Speaker 2: 10:57

And so, just so everyone knows, I smoked chicken, just chicken. Just think about this for a second smoked chicken, it's not nothing, hoopla, nobody's shooting off guns, because this is the best thing ever. And then I had the ahi verde. We had chicken pate, there was caramelized onions, and then I separated off the skin to do a crispy skin chicken. So it was like bacon basically, as my shirt shoulder is getting brushed off, um, everyone in that first, because you had the taste cam. So what we did in threes, so that first Tasty cam, everyone was like, oh, that fog, horn, leg horn. And then I heard it and then I posted and then Jason, chef, jason was like I'm still thinking about it.

Speaker 1: 11:39

Now I know why. Yeah, I mean I. So I think we should okay. So if that was the Uh, uh, if that was the top you know dish, the shimai was also there, were all great. I'm saying great, but listen, that's because you ate that for dinner.

Speaker 2: 11:52

Did you say something else he?

Speaker 1: 11:53

said brisket. So, yeah, brisk was great, it really was fantastic. So maybe we do is we take the brisket and the the chicken dish, recreate them so we can shoot them and john can photograph them and then people can see. So, by the way, um, not not evan, you know, nephew evan, I was in the kitchen helping, but videographer evan, who's uh new on the team, um, he's doing, you know, he did the uh, all the filming and we're waiting on the uh, the finished product and I can't wait to see it. I know I can't wait to see the tasty cam. When I got introduced to the tasty cam, it's gonna be great there was like 30 people who did this tasty cam and, um, you know, there's after a few stiff Cocktails, you know. So it's going to be really great and I was there for most of them. So I know that there's there's some real good content, uh, in that tasty cam. And, by the way, the tasty cam this is so everybody understands we had a, a tent pavilion, gorgeous, gorgeous tent pavilion that had the couch, nice couches, and you know that's where the cocktails were and everything in there.

Speaker 1: 12:54

We set up a, um, you know, a really nice Cushy chair with the lights and the camera and you know the video camera, the whole nine yards and, um, that's where you would sit. So yours, you know, for the minute 30 seconds. Whatever, you're a superstar, you know you're out there and it's all about you. And how was your experience at this dinner? And you know what everybody really came with it like there's humor, there was all sorts of really just Sharing great. Um, you know the great vibe, the energy of the show. Anyway, it's gonna be great. I can't wait to get that out there on socials. Um, hopefully into this coming week or so. Um, that'll be out and uh, hey next time, people you got to get.

Speaker 1: 13:38

Uh, you gotta come out, you gotta get, get your tickets, unless you're invited, you know, and that's a special thing. We'll see how that works out, all right. So, without further ado, because you know what, um, I mentioned in the monologue, um, kylie bailed me out. I don't think I've ever done one of these shows before and I don't know what to say. And you know, I mean, I talk a lot, I've talked in front of people, but you know, whatever, kylie, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3: 14:08

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 14:09

No, no, thank you for like everything, um, she's, she was in my ear. I want to mean, by bail me out is I've got 30 people there's these courses, we got tasty cam. There was a lot of actual um, you know, uh, stuff to do, stuff to do organization and workflow, and I and I'm you know I'm getting through it, it's cool, but what happened is in my ear I don't know where was hey Say this, that, that, that, that, and she gives me this like advice and I turn and I'm like, oh, my god, I love you, you, you, really, you. You arrived at the most perfect. You are wonderful.

Speaker 3: 14:52

Thank you, anyway, uh, quick intro who are you Well, I was born in a mayonnaise farm in south Mississippi. No, I'm originally from north Alabama little town called Deighton Uh. I arrived 18 years ago in Palm Beach County in the Everglades agricultural area and haven't left. My husband and I own and operate a boutique banana, plantain, avocado and steer operation along the shores of laco and we pay for our farming habit by consulting for farmers, predominantly in the produce industry, to help them stay legal and get marketing business through retailers, distributors and consumers by building their brands. So I handle them and I just handled you in the same way.

Speaker 1: 16:31

And you and you did, I like, literally out of nowhere, it was like an angel. You were an angel and you showed up and you led me and you said something to me on the phone the other day right, that was you or no, that was you. Uh, because I think Amy Was said something like hey, uh, you know, did he even know that he was being handled? Right? What was that?

Speaker 3: 16:53

Yeah uh, she was like I don't know I don't know if he knew and I was like I think he did, but it was more fun than what I normally experienced. And she looked at me and said why was that? I said, well, I think I knew I was gonna get fed. Yes, that's how.

Speaker 1: 17:13

I get down here all the time. You think I would hang out with these two yoyos without the food? Come on, I don't know about that.

Speaker 2: 17:19

You know we keep on talking about Amy and mentioning that we have three other angels that were helping us out that night.

Speaker 1: 17:23

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 17:24

So we gotta give a huge shot. Tina Atkins actually four. Larry came out, though he was the roaster for Sweet Order as well. They set up the coffee station. You got Amy who did, and Vicki that came up with the whole event and made it look so shabby chic. Yeah that whole group.

Speaker 1: 17:43

Kylie included, set the whole place up. It was really pretty. I think there's already pictures out of the event.

Speaker 2: 17:52

A lot of the social influencers definitely put that out. The first thing Tampa food mom, tampa food babes, they all pumped out some really good stuff.

Speaker 1: 18:02

But just to finish on one point here I knew what that was, I knew you were handling me and I went with open arms. You know, I was just like yes, I follow, I'm gonna follow inline lockstep barrel, whatever. And that's what I did. What time did we finish? Remember, I got home at two in the morning, so what we finished, it was about one o'clock in the morning. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:25

So some of us were there from To. Yeah, we were at 12.

Speaker 3: 18:30

Six in the morning.

Speaker 1: 18:31

Well, you guys were there, you stayed there, you stayed there, right.

Speaker 2: 18:34

Which is really good because you can talk to the aspect of the agriculture, that Airbnb that Marvin has over at Cahaba it was a work trip. It's gorgeous.

Speaker 1: 18:43

Yes, yeah, and, by the way, speaking to Marvin and Cahaba Club Urbal Outpost, so it's a microgreens farm, right, but he put up, he just built I don't know four or five cabins, state of the art, beautiful cabins, and then another three or four off or two, two off, two off grid cabins that are, you know, still really awesome, just like off grid. So it's a different experience.

Speaker 2: 19:12

So I have to call this out because something happened when I was at the farm the day before when I went out there. It always does right, right, it was so much cloud cover that they forgot to put the when it gets out a certain percentage. That would shut everything down, so we'd drain the batteries completely, oh sure. So he's now has a backup plan just in case. God forbid the. You know batteries don't get charged, she's. So he put them on the grid just in case.

Speaker 1: 19:34

And then he also put in a propane gas heater for water heater, because that was another big thing too, because I think I heard one of the girls there that had cold showers.

Speaker 2: 19:44

I heard there was, like you know, four people and they were taking an hour on shower.

Speaker 1: 19:48

Well, that would have been me.

Speaker 2: 19:51

Well being at the farm that long somebody looks guilty.

Speaker 3: 19:56

I did hear that from hardly I will just say that I experienced pristine hot water for about 80% of my shower and then, as I have my facial scrub on my face, because I had worn makeup to this event, which, might I add to you, my grandmother always says you should only wear makeup to events, so you would have been.

Speaker 3: 20:22

I get a glacial ice blast of water which Marvin described to me as my trip to the spa for free. So, Marvin, you know I love you. That was an incredible experience and although it was after the event, I was wide awake.

Speaker 1: 20:43

Sure, you know. But you know what's the funniest part about that is? And if you know Marvin, you know, you know how he speaks and his cadence when he talks, right, so I can just picture like, oh man, that was just your trip to the spa, that's, you know. Like I can see it, it's beautiful.

Speaker 2: 21:00

All I heard was I got a text. At one o'clock in the morning. There was cold water. Well, don't take a shower that long.

Speaker 1: 21:07

Oh, my goodness, all right, so let's jump into this. It's an interesting topic, hot topic, right? Food safety and farms, and what so? The most, as I understand it, tell me from Ron Khali the biggest area where you know the flag area is water.

Speaker 3: 21:29

You are 100% correct, and it's just because it's an input that is used even before. If you're doing conventional growing, that's called land preparation. Water has to be a factor in the preparation of the site, and then, if you're growing hydroponically, it's your main input there, or you're growing with aquaponics as well, and then water is used in a multitude of additional ways throughout the process, all the way into harvesting, sanitation and continuing on, to when it goes to facilities for cooling, for packing and even for processing. And let's not forget about the almighty hand wash water as well.

Speaker 1: 22:14

So how is it so explain the process of why our food for the most part in the United States Florida here in particular is safe?

Speaker 3: 22:25

That's a pretty heavy question.

Speaker 1: 22:27

I know it is Right there.

Speaker 3: 22:28

Definitely wet, no pun intended. Water in particular growing in Florida is we have an abundance of water and so we can use water by growing. We use water through crop protection, which is a way of saying how do we help the plants grow through fertilizer, through protecting from pests and diseases. We can also use water, in particular for irrigation purposes, and with irrigation purposes it's different means. Different areas of Florida grow in different ways.

Speaker 3: 23:16

So down in South Florida we have a lot of canals and rivers and open water sources. We have access to that water through permits. Usually water management districts give us access to that and we can use that water. But it's open, open to the elements. And then we have water that comes from wells, which many people have at their homes. But also farms and farm owned facilities have access to water. And then, surprisingly, many people don't realize that sometimes farms actually use city or county water to grow, to irrigate, to even pack and cool their products, so that water can be used in all of these different ways. But the different types of water have their own individual risk.

Speaker 1: 24:49

So, and with those risks, what are the fixes or corrective measures? Obviously, water. It happens, water happens. You can have rain that comes through, it changes the pH, or there's all sorts of things that can happen in real time. How do you stay on top of it to where it stays at its right levels?

Speaker 3: 25:10

So very good question.

Speaker 3: 25:12

So when we're talking about right levels, you're probably talking about open water source water, and so that's through management plans, and it typically starts with strategy.

Speaker 3: 25:21

Just like any other business, farmers have to have strategy and they have to start with risk assessments for those open water sources and they have permits of when they can raise and lower the water. Many times what they want to be able to do is actually keep all of that water on that individual farm, because it takes a lot of time, effort and money to pump water in and we're very cautious about pumping water out because we want to be able to make sure that we're effectively using those resources that we have. So we want to look at keeping levels stable for what we're growing, but when rain happens, like we've been getting tremendous amounts of rain, we have to lower those water channels and usually we use the ditches that are already cut in the farms, and many times there's also large reservoirs that the farmers have access to where they can put that water and store it, and then, when they need it, they actually don't have to draw it in from major canals. They actually still keep it right there on their farm.

Speaker 1: 26:24

And that's what. In what sort? How is it contained? What is that?

Speaker 3: 26:28

So it's typically contained within the canal banks, the ditch banks and the reservoir containment areas.

Speaker 3: 26:35

That's normally where it's stored at. It doesn't go into any type of cistern or water tank typically like what you would see in California or Arizona. We actually store it in another, open source. You would be amazed at the amount of what is called acre feet of volume of water that can be stored when you have, say, a two foot wide ditch that is two feet in depth but it goes for 40 acres. Well, if there are ditches that are on either side of those 40 acres and there's 10 40 acre fields, that's a lot of water that can be stored and effectively used. And it actually is called seepage irrigation and it's one of the most genius ways of making sure that our water that is going to be used for irrigation purposes is actually safe, because it infiltrates in through the soil into the root system and it keeps the soil moist, keeping the plants growing, and they can raise and lower that water by moving what's called boards and culverts, and that's a pretty cool thing to do.

Speaker 1: 27:49

Now, does that keep any sort of? Because it's going through the root system and the soil and it's almost like a filter, I would imagine. So does that clean out pathogens and things? Is that a natural sort of a? Or?

Speaker 2: 28:03

can they introduce pathogens too? Because what is the perfect medium for that?

Speaker 3: 28:06

Yes, so it kind of goes hand in hand.

Speaker 3: 28:10

Anytime you have moisture and you have water, it's a conduit right. It's the perfect vehicle for a pathogen like a Nicoli or a Salmonella or a Listeria, which you guys hear these buzzwords and recalls that happen all of the time. But when the water goes through that natural filtration system, many times people also forget the solarization that happens from the sun that goes down through the water column and that UV, ultraviolet radiation, actually kills bacteria, pathogens, parasites that could be residing in there, and then when it soaks up through the roots, okay, it tends not to translocate pathogens, which is awesome. So that's one of the main reasons why we've got all of this volume of water available for farmers that use conventional land preparation, even organics, and they can use seepage irrigation. When we actually take those water samples for farmers that use seepage irrigation, we check the main canal feeding in, but when we take the samples for that particular field, we actually take it from the middle of the field and we let the water draw up to 100 milliliters, because that shows what is actually touching the roots.

Speaker 1: 29:37

So is there a percentage? So you have your water system on random farm, abc, whatever, and you go, you do your tests, you take your samples. Is there a? Is there like a curve on that? It's like okay, well, your, your water is coming back and I don't know the, the raid or whatever, but it's coming at 98%, you know. So you have. Is it's 2% variance where there could be something there or something to that effect? How does that? How does that actually work?

Speaker 3: 30:08

So it's not in percentages. We deal in actual numbers or what's called most probable numbers or for those sciencey folks, it's called colony forming units. This goes all the way back to Biology and chemistry. But we look at different testing methods, predominantly for legally required Generic E Coli. That's considered to be what's called an indicator organism. It indicates if there could be additional pathogen Disturbances. That are there. But also we look for specific numbers and Depending upon the commodities that are grown that way, you may have a very, very low number because of the way that the water could be used Maybe it's not being used for seepage irrigation but we look for less than typically the numbers, less than 126 most probable number or colony forming unit. And you might say where the heck does that number come from? Well, it actually is based on science from the EPA and the drinking water standard and and going back into what is actually considered to be safe for use from the 1970s with the EPA. So this is what the FDA adopted for what we are now legally required to mandate for testing.

Speaker 1: 31:26

So that's interesting. So, but if you have a thousand gallon area of water, right and you go to, you know the, the center. But so if you, if you're testing for like E Coli, let's say, or Listeria, or one of the it's not going to be riddled throughout, or or how does, how do you, how do you know for sure you're catching the right sample, right Does?

Speaker 2: 31:50

that make sense? Multiple points, or is it one point, the critical point, or is it multiple critical points?

Speaker 3: 31:55

Really good question there. So we start with where we intake the water Okay, so I said the main canal earlier and then we look at which commodities and when is the last point of use for that, which would be, if the last point is seepage irrigation, it would be the root uptake, and the weakest area for root uptake would be the center of the field. Okay, and so we would go into that field and what? Typically what we do is, prior to planting, at least 30 days ahead, we take a sample for the main canal leading in and then during production, we do it every 30 days minimum. Now, sometimes there are retail clients where Crops are being grown specifically for them and they may want additional water testing and they may also want water testing for what is used directly on the crop.

Speaker 3: 32:51

So if we've been dealing with kind of interesting temperatures, especially in North Florida and you know we're about to go into berry season, strawberry and blueberry season, and many times they're doing that with freeze control and freeze prevention that water is typically not coming from open water sources.

Speaker 3: 33:11

It's coming from wells that typically are absent of generic E Coli or absent of total coliforms and and because it's going to touch the edible portion of the crop or the edible leaves or the bulbs that are going to form into fruit, and that just all goes into risk and understanding all of the different ways that we would use water and Then making sure that we're making the best efforts there. So it's really an in-depth question because we do sample in multiple points, but we also repeat that sampling To make sure that throughout the entire growing process, all the way up to harvesting, and even if something is being Replanted, even if it's a different commodity after that, continues throughout the season so that we develop what we call geometric means, so that we know what to expect from that main canal, what to expect from certain fields as well, and we know, if it shifts too much, that we need to inspect and investigate Further so that we can try to reduce any likelihood of a recall.

Speaker 1: 34:26

So let's just say E Coli is a big one, right? And is it more likely an E Coli break out is going to happen because of water contamination or is that going to be from, from you know, human, human or animal Contamnate, right? So yeah, touch on that a little bit.

Speaker 3: 34:48

So we've seen in previous recalls that mostly we've been lucky here in Florida that we haven't had any water associated Recalls. That have happened in note for produce but they have been water associated recalls for certain types of E Coli's Out West in in Arizona and in California with some leafy greens, and it was relating to how they were storing the water, how they were using the water, and what's interesting about that in particular is that those recalls we've learned more from them now so that the entire produce community is putting practices in place so that we can prevent, eliminate and reduce the chances. Because we look back on history and we say how do, how can we dissect this particular problem and how do we make sure that it's not going to happen again? So, for instance, what's happening in Arizona right now is the state government is allowing treatment of water on Farm water. So they bring the water in and they are treating it with certain approved compounds for Organic some or organic compounds proxy acetic and peri acetic acid. That will reduce the likelihood of the pathogens down, but they're doing it based on testing to know that it's there.

Speaker 3: 36:24

The thing to know about any open water source is that if it's open to you, it's open to all wildlife, it's open to all humans as well, and it's going to contain bacteria. Okay, but what is a safe amount? Is that one twenty six truly safe to you or not? What we want to try to do is lower that amount to a level where, hopefully, it's undetectable.

Speaker 1: 36:48

I mean you can, you can get, you can get Bacteria from from the water, from your house taking a shower. I mean you know you have your eye doctor will tell you, hey, don't you know, don't rub your eyes in the shower and all the water. Yeah, what are you talking about? Like, how do you shower, pal?

Speaker 2: 37:04

Like what it gets in there, right, Well, there was specifically where I think was either Texas, arizona, there was a feedlot that was near where they were growing greens.

Speaker 1: 37:14

Yeah hello.

Speaker 2: 37:15

And so what they were doing to minimize the risk of the pathogens from being airborne when the cows would go to the bathroom defecate they would water it. That's brilliant. Where do you think that water went to the?

Speaker 1: 37:29

farm.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Well, runoff is a whole another delivery system right?

Speaker 3: 37:34

Yes, and so what he's talking about is called a bio aerosol and we actually in our risk assessments now for almost all commodities that are consumed without cooking. We actually have to look at the proximity to livestock, to contained animal feeding operations, to even hobby farms, to make sure that the bio aerosols are not going to be a potential hazard. And if they are, then we have to look at the slope of the land, the connections of the water, canals, ditches, ponds, and we have to actually be very, very, very cautious with our groundwater, because that's what happens. Why are your eye doctors telling you not to wash your eyes with a well water system? Is if you've got groundwater potential contaminants and anyone in the United States might you would actually have that potential hazard If you weren't monitoring which, I have to say, many homeowners are not actually managing their well systems as they should. So, as a food safety professional, I would encourage you to hire that out.

Speaker 1: 38:44

I mean, look, I'm still trying to get through homework with my children, right Well?

Speaker 2: 38:49

and that's the biggest thing. Like she was just saying, it's like I'm looking around, I'm smirking, it's like the ah-ha moment, like why were we not doing this in the first place? Right, we all know that when there's defecation, you don't want to have it near you, so that's why we have toilets in the house.

Speaker 1: 39:03

I mean, I've been living my life like that far back as I can remember, Do farms have?

Speaker 2: 39:08

well, I hate this word because it's in the restaurant industry. It's one of those things we can't stand.

Speaker 3: 39:14

Yes, and we are acronym city. Now, okay, we have passive, we have PCQI, we have VASIP, we have TASAP, we have GMO, we have GAP, we have GHP. You want me to keep?

Speaker 2: 39:30

going. No, it's all right, I stopped at hasp.

Speaker 3: 39:33

So hasp is throughout the food industry, but predominantly in produce. Hasp is applied on the facility level and it's a methodology that actually started with NASA. And why? Because nobody wants diarrhea in space. Okay, I mean what?

Speaker 2: 39:55

true story.

Speaker 3: 39:56

What exactly would you do with diarrhea in space?

Speaker 1: 39:59

Have a problem.

Speaker 3: 39:59

Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:01

You're calling Houston.

Speaker 3: 40:02

Yeah, houston.

Speaker 1: 40:04

Right.

Speaker 3: 40:05

And then Houston's going to be like I don't know so with with uh, hasp in particular. Hasp is super cool because they wanted to do what they could to keep astronauts safe in space. Well, they looked at inputs. Well, we've just been talking about a major input in agriculture, which is water. Okay, and how do we employ this? Nasa rocket science, which hasp is rocket science. So that actually means you and I are rocket scientists. Okay, fist bump on that one right there.

Speaker 2: 40:38

I don't know about that, but okay.

Speaker 3: 40:40

If we employ hasp, we will have the opportunity to and, gentlemen, wait for this to purr. Okay, that's right.

Speaker 1: 40:50

Right.

Speaker 3: 40:51

That means to prevent, eliminate and reduce. And we look at hazards, and we can do that on the farm level, we don't have to wait for the facility level, and that's what we do with risk assessments. We look at biological hazards, so we've just been talking about E Coli and all of these pathogens. Right, pathogens mean that it doesn't have to be bacteria, it can be viruses, it can be parasites, which make me shiver, okay. And then we look at chemical hazards. So we're not just talking about pesticides here, we're not talking about fertilizers, talking about what happens on the land level and what has been previously happening on the history of that land. Or maybe what has happened if we're growing in a greenhouse with the media, like coconut core or peat moss, and where it was sourced from and oh yeah, it was wet and it came from Canada. Right, it came from another location.

Speaker 3: 41:46

And what do we know about that? And then physical hazards. You know, in the kitchen he has to look at his knives constantly to make sure that he doesn't have any metal hazards coming off. Well, guess what? We have to do that as well. Most of your produce items, unless they're handpicked or harvested by what? A knife or a set of scissors, and so that's a physical hazard. But we have to look at this particular has it methodology, but we imply it on the farm level and so, if you really want to think about it, your farmers are rocket scientists and that's pretty cool.

Speaker 2: 42:20

Well, and that's why we always say in the restaurant business that you want to go to a reputable place. Because here's the thing God forbid, you know, an outbreak considered in the health industry as far as the Department of Health is like two people. That's all you need.

Speaker 3: 42:32

Two people.

Speaker 2: 42:32

Yeah, and when you have a has-up plan, even in the restaurant it points back to farm zero, point, you know, or a farm. They go back to that farm and if that farm has the has-up they can know exactly like. The perfect examples is Chipotle. How many times have they been hit by E Coli? And it was mostly the greens and they knew exactly what farm and exactly what person that caused it.

Speaker 1: 42:57

Yeah. The field the farm hand and you know it's all about critical control points. And a critical control point is in the timeline of handling that product, where something is likely to go wrong. You know a glass break could happen here. That's a critical control point. Or you know, you know there could be a contaminant you know could occur here in the timeline of you know boxing or also the food chain, when it goes on the truck and then the whole thing.

Speaker 2: 43:29

Yeah, I mean every you know.

Speaker 1: 43:31

So you know has-up programs apply to, you know, farms, it applies to restaurants, it applies to the distributor who's you know. You know the truck drivers, like everybody has. You know their part, their system, their place in this has-up program and then that's. That is how you can go back and find where the error is. You know and you know, being in produce myself and from the distribution sector it's always nice when it's not from our facility you know it's like, okay, we check everything we have to check off. And then we go, uh, hey, uh, farmer or grower, packer, shipper, yeah, it's on you guys. You know you guys, and now it's their problem to go and do their checks and see where the thing actually you know where the, where the occurrence came from.

Speaker 3: 44:26

And when you talk about critical control points, the important distinction is you can have something that's a control point, like temperature in particular, but there becomes a certain type of temperature hazard where something is introduced or enhanced, and that's what separates something from just being a control point of what we would call for quality. Right, nobody wants something like a Luke Worm iceberg head of lettuce. Okay, but it still might be safe. Okay, but from a quality standpoint, no, we want it to be crisp and we want it to be solid and we want it to be juicy. In the instance that we have something that flips the switch and in that temperature, if there was a pathogen that, when it got to a certain temperature, it enhanced the potential, then that would be a critical control point, and so we look at that more so on the facility level than the farm level, see, but all of these things have to be documented in his most, in the most meticulous, outrageous way possible.

Speaker 1: 45:38

And we all hate putting these plants together as I'm rolling my eyes.

Speaker 2: 45:41

Seriously, I mean.

Speaker 1: 45:42

I've been part of. I've been part of the passive teams and whatnot in my career.

Speaker 2: 45:47

It's awful, but it's for the best, it's for the, it's for the greater good of of of this of all of this, you know we, and when I do consulting on restaurants, one of the things I always ask is how many times a day you're doing your temperature checks? And they're like what? What temperature checks? I'm like how are you not doing temperature checks? And here's the reason why God forbid someone to get sick in your establishment. If you're doing temperature checks, then you've already have that credit. You know has that problem. You've already indicated the solution. Guess who? The health inspector is not going to go after you, right? If you don't, that opens up a whole nother can of worms.

Speaker 1: 46:19

See, and then you would, you defer back to your distributor. You know, you know, because your distributor, in those cases they're in charge of the logistics as well. So you know transportation, so that that company, you know, handles the product from you know from a point to your back door, Exactly, so then the checks have to start going backwards from there. So it's, you know, it's actually it's an interesting part of of how people get their necessary evil necessary evil, but it's interesting if you really get into it.

Speaker 1: 46:49

you know, on the surface you might say, oh hey, we're talking food safety and you want to, you know, dig your eyes out. But no, the reality is this is it's no, it's true. It's true Because it's exciting. It's exciting, it's so much work. So that work you might look at and go, oh my God, I don't have anything to do with that. But the truth is it. We get to go and enjoy all of the things that we do with food because we take it for granted that it's going to be okay.

Speaker 3: 47:15

Yeah, we take the worry out of it.

Speaker 3: 47:17

And that's the thing, from farmers all the way through harvesters and packers through the distributors. Not just that they have laws, but they actually feel a responsibility. I've been in the food industry now nearly 20 years and I haven't met one person who doesn't take a level of esteemed pride when they see their product on a plate or being listed in a menu and they want to make sure that that consumer is not just getting something tasty, but something that is safe and something that they will order time and time and time again. And so that pride is really what facilitates the compliance. It's not regulatory action, it's not hearing somebody down the street. There's recalls that just happened announced this morning. Okay, they're happening. Restaurants closing.

Speaker 2: 48:07

Yes, because of it, some big restaurants in Tampa. I don't know if you've seen those articles. I didn't pass them off to you. There's no.

Speaker 2: 48:13

I didn't see it today. Yeah, there were some pizza places recently. In their clothes there was actually a main player I'm trying to think who it was that was closed down for two days at multiple. Yeah, so again, you know that we have these because of poop happening. I mean, look at Jack in the box is a prime example, and this is this is something that I didn't realize.

Speaker 2: 48:36

We didn't know about equal I until Jack in a box. We didn't know that it could be killed after a hundred and forty degrees. Once that set the precedent. That's one of the reasons why Jack in a box was able to Rebound from it, because they actually put in. They would. You know, the letters were going back and forth with inside that cooperation about what was going on, was the government, the FDA and EPA that said, hey, you need to kill this and the way to do that is a hundred and forty degrees, and that became the mainstay After that. That's why you have the produce that she was talking about so much earlier. That's why we have so many problems with the ready-to-eat RTE problems, because that stuff's not being we don't know if it's being cleaned properly, and that's some of the farmers that are maybe cutting some Corners or whatever it is, they just don't know, and and that sounds like she knows she does right.

Speaker 1: 49:25

So, by the way, well, yes, two things real quick. So, in terms of water, because I don't, I know there's more to this, but for today's segment I want to kind of wrap up on the water. What's the? What's the most prevalent water Bacteria or, you know, potential challenge?

Speaker 3: 49:43

so equal I, because it's the indicator organism, and and what we have seen from research is that in most water systems, whether they're open or well, or even municipal, that it's going to indicate presence of not just Other types of E Coli, certain ones that we may naturally have in our gut that don't make us sick but may make others sick, but what we also see in open water is that Salmonella tends to harbor with E Coli, and so the E Coli test is actually a lot cheaper and quicker For the lab to turn around. So if you've got a certain level of E Coli, you can say, hey, here's what I need to do in my plan that's already written, it's already founded in science of to lower the potential and we may retest, we may do additional solarization techniques. Don't think that we're always going to use chemical treatment. Okay, that is always the last option.

Speaker 1: 50:50

So the consumer at home, it's one thing. We're talking restaurants, that's one thing. At home, the best method that you know, jane and Joe, you know family can do, is to wash their product.

Speaker 3: 51:03

Yes, and let's also say wash your hands often.

Speaker 1: 51:07

Oh, my god yeah.

Speaker 3: 51:10

Please, please, please. Have a cutting board that can be cleaned and sanitized, that is only used for produce, and we don't use the same one for fish and we don't use the same fish one for meat. You need to have separate ones. That is how you reduce the likelihood of cross contamination.

Speaker 2: 51:31

John only has one cutting board. You just did. I know I have actually I have Color-coded and just make it easier.

Speaker 3: 51:40

You know green, red, blue, white and gray, I think is the one yes, and you can find that at any retail establishment and normally they have handy dandy icons. So if you forget what the blue one stands for, fish is does fish?

Speaker 1: 51:54

All right. So here's the next, the next step of this right. Farmers, if you're listening, or Distributors, or restaurants, or whomever, if you're in the industry and you're like, oh man, I need, I should probably have a consultant come in and really check this out. Kylie, what's your, how do people find you?

Speaker 3: 52:14

Well, thank you for asking. The consulting business is called the ag safety lady and we are a firm, so it's not just a army of one. I've got folks throughout Florida and a couple of other places and we're multi-lingual. They can visit the ag safety lady, calm, or they can find us on Facebook as well, because we're active there, or they can give me a call by calling 561 261 9747. We'll set it up and We'll work with you, no matter what your problem is, or even if you don't think you have a problem.

Speaker 1: 52:49

I don't often think I don't have any problems, but it's not true. So as we go forward with this and we kind of talked about, I'll put you on the spot a little bit on air, but I kind of want to do this as a series right. So today we did water right, and I know that water, water what water, water, not would. I don't know where you're from, because you're not from Hollywood, with that no my mom told you I mean, it doesn't make my mom and dad are from Freeport and Long Island, Woodmere.

Speaker 2: 53:16

Oh yeah, all right, so that's why.

Speaker 1: 53:18

We're gonna. We're gonna fix you. We're gonna fix you, man. I promise you, you, you, you. So you over here, kylie. What would be another good one? To talk about so well, hold on, wait a second time out, because we're not gonna dive into it now. All right, I'm just out there trying to do a teaser. Well, that's what I'm saying. No, you want to get into the guts of it? What would we?

Speaker 2: 53:38

I don't want to do with the guts of it. I want to know what would be the topic.

Speaker 1: 53:40

51 minutes into this thing, people are like now already starting to be okay, we're gonna try to like let's, let's give that to them. You know we're trying to improve the show and the workflow and that means we got to control Jeff.

Speaker 3: 53:53

That's just out there.

Speaker 1: 53:54

I'm just putting it out there impossible, impossible, but we're starting with water. That's today, and we may circle back to water, because I think water has much more to it, you know. So this morning I received this whole batch of Data points and information, and it's, it's fascinating. I skim through it and it's there's so much more to water. What is, indeed, what is the next, would be the next topic in terms of food safety, and you look nervous. What's the matter?

Speaker 3: 54:30

I am not nervous, I'm. I was anticipating this question, you know, like Miss America. You know I was waiting my world piece. I Get quizzed grocery store, even at the farmers Craveable dinner event, which I volunteered at and purchased a ticket and I was at the VIP tables super swag bag, awesome. I will say that no one really knows, and I can dive deep into. What does organic mean?

Speaker 3: 55:05

Oh, my goodness yeah and what does conventional mean? And what does the term pesticide free mean? And, oh, how about GMO? And is Organic GMO or is it not? And what's so loud I mean?

Speaker 1: 55:23

do you know how many people's heads are exploding right now listening to this? If they got this far, if they didn't hang up on Jeff? Here, you know, like two minutes ago, people who are hearing this Are excited. I'm telling you now this is these are great topics and now we have the pro, the expert in the field, to explain it.

Speaker 1: 55:43

You know, I'm not, we're not relying on you or I, or I'm not a blanket with us, you know, whatever, but yes, so we're gonna have you back, we'll figure out some scheduling and, you know, maybe what we'll do is we'll we'll frame out Some of these topics and we'll start feeding them on the social media and we'll gin up maybe some questions We'll get. You know, we'll get the audience involved in a little bit a poll.

Speaker 2: 56:07

Yeah, whatever the, whatever the topic is, take a poll and they can ask questions to her. That'd be great. I think we'll be honest it gets them interactive. To correct Um, if you ask the expert, is what we can do? Like a little corner.

Speaker 1: 56:19

Did you enjoy eating here today?

Speaker 2: 56:21

She was told not to eat.

Speaker 3: 56:23

I was told not to eat this morning, so yes, I definitely.

Speaker 1: 56:28

Anticipation of getting here. Yes, okay, yeah, sure.

Speaker 3: 56:31

Okay, okay, she was more not to eat, because if she ate, she was not going to be able to eat but I already connected with Jeff on social media prior to Saturday's event and I read the menu and I said you had me at crackling and I told him that was his next shirt hashtag. So if I don't get fillets or new york strips, I just get honey cracklings and chicken cracklings and pork cracklings. I'll work for crackling that deal.

Speaker 2: 57:04

You're in should have brought some today.

Speaker 1: 57:06

You know we could have like bread crumb, cracklin crumbs.

Speaker 2: 57:08

You know.

Speaker 1: 57:09

Oh, piece of candy, I you know. Listen, kylie, thank you for being on the program today. I'm glad you got to experience because we we do the craveable farmers craveable dinner Every thursday. Basically, you saw what we do here, right? So we're getting those bites constantly.

Speaker 3: 57:29

Um, don't forget about the shots bringing the farmer to it Every thursday.

Speaker 1: 57:34

Yeah, this is what I'm saying. This is an expanding pie. This whole walk-and-talk podcast thing and and this whole food universe, it's expanding and we're bringing all kinds of folks in and spending like your waist.

Speaker 1: 57:45

Yeah, just totally like that. Um, you're right, all right Again, Thanks for being on the show, john. I cannot wait. I can't wait to see some photography as soon as possible, like like mas rapido, as they say wow, yeah, no, that's an inside joke. Um, jeff, uh, I mean, if you want to come back next week, you can't, all right, all right, all right, we are out.