Managing Hot Moments in 2025 with Rick Moore and Bethany Morrison

Here in the US, the political environment is more heated than I’ve ever known it in my lifetime, and some of that heat is coming directly at higher ed and its faculty. This episode is all about managing those “hot moments” in our classes when just about any topic can be “hot.” 

My guests are Bethany Morrison, assistant director at the Center for Research on Learning and Teaching at the University of Michigan, and Rick Moore, associate director for faculty programming at the Center for Teaching and Learning at Washington University in St. Louis.

We talk about the reasons a class discussion can get "hot," the difference between a hot moment and a high-stakes discussion, the stakes these discussions can have for us and for our students, and strategies for preparing for and managing these challenging discussions.

Episode Resources

“Managing Hot Moments in the Classroom,” Lee Warren, 2000

“Faculty, Advocacy Groups Fear Texas A&M Firing Threatens Academic Freedom,” Alex Nguyen, Texas Tribune, September 15, 2025

“Teaching in an Election Year with Bethany Morrison,” Intentional Teaching ep. 50, September 24, 2024

Promoting Democracy Teaching Series, University of Michigan. See, especially, the instructor resources.

“Academe Has a Lot to Learn about How Inclusive Teaching Affects Instructors,” Chavella Pittman and Thomas Tobin, Chronicle of Higher Education, February 7, 2022

“Teaching in Turbulent Times,” Rick Moore, UVA Teaching Hub

“Teaching for Democratic Engagement and Civic Learning,” Bethany Morrison, UVA Teaching Hub

Transcript

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Derek Bruff 0:31

Welcome to Intentional Teaching, a podcast aimed at educators to help them develop foundational teaching skills and explore new ideas in teaching. I'm your host, Derek Bruff. I hope this podcast helps you be more intentional in how you teach and in how you develop as a teacher over time.

Derek Bruff 0:48

This semester, fall of 2025, has been a challenging one for Higher Ed. Here in the United States, the political environment is, frankly, more heated than I've ever known it to be in my lifetime. And some of that heat is coming directly at Higher Ed and its faculty. This episode of Intentional Teaching is all about managing those hot moments in our classes when just about any topic can be hot. I'm joined by two very wise teaching center colleagues, one of whom you've heard on the podcast almost exactly a year ago, and another one who is new to the show.

Derek Bruff 1:24

Our returning guest is Bethany Morrison, Assistant Director at the Center for Research on Learning and Teaching at the University of Michigan. Bethany was on last year to share some strategies for teaching in an election year, drawing on a Michigan project about promoting civic learning and democratic engagement. Bethany has a PhD in political science from Emory University and teaches courses in American politics and policy making.

Derek Bruff 1:49

Our new guest is Rick Moore, Associate Director for Faculty Programming at the Center for Teaching and Learning at Washington University in St. Louis. I met Rick when I visited Wash U last year, and I very quickly recruited him to put together a collection on teaching in turbulent times for the University of Virginia Teaching Hub. Rick has a PhD in sociology from the University of Chicago and teaches courses on the sociology of religion.

Derek Bruff 2:15

I started the conversation with Bethany and Rick by providing a bit of context and trying to define the scope of our discussion.

Derek Bruff 2:24

Twenty five years ago, Lee Warren published a short piece called Managing Hot Moments in the Classroom. Lee was working for the Derek Bach Center for Teaching and Learning at the time, and I know a lot of teaching centers have shared this piece in the intervening years. From Lee's piece, quote, sometimes things seem to explode in the classroom. And what do we do then? Knowing strategies for turning difficult encounters into learning opportunities enables us to address important but hot topics religion, politics, race, class, gender, in our classroom discussions.

Derek Bruff 2:59

I've been hearing this fall from faculty who are especially worried about managing hot topics in their classrooms, given that the current US political climate means that just about any topic could be a hot one for students. I reached out to two Center for Teaching and Learning colleagues, Rick Moore and Bethany Morrison, who regularly consult with instructors across a wide range of disciplines on managing challenging class discussions. My big question for them: what are some teaching strategies for preventing and managing hot moments in the classroom when just about any topic could be hot?

Derek Bruff 3:33

Since the three of us scheduled today's conversation, there have been a series of high-profile firings of college faculty over topics they've addressed in their courses and or statements they've made on social media about controversial topics. For example, in September, a faculty member at Texas A&M was fired, apparently for teaching about gender and sexuality in a course on children's literature. One of the students in that course filmed a student-teacher confrontation in the course, and when that video was shared widely online, Texas lawmakers called for the firing of the instructor. And that's exactly what happened.

Derek Bruff 4:12

We're not going to drill down into the details of that incident, but it is an important part of the context for our discussion. I'm not sure that there's anything we can do as instructors to prevent this kind of sting operation by a student or students determined to make trouble. But I do think there are steps we can take to work with the vast majority of students who aren't out to get us.

Derek Bruff 4:35

Bethany and Rick, thanks for joining me on the podcast today and for taking on this very challenging teaching topic. I'm glad you're here. So if we can put ourselves for the moment in the position of our students, what are some reasons that a class discussion might get hot? What can these moments look like? Rick, I'll start with you on this.

Rick Moore 4:59

Yeah, well, first of all, Derek, thanks for inviting us. This is something that I've been thinking a lot about, um especially over these this last year as kind of the political climate has has increased. And it's something that that I've had a lot of conversations with people about. To your question, I think we each come to a situation and students come to our classes with our own varying identities and experiences. Some of those are visible, some of those are not visible. So if if the people listening to this podcast could see me, they would see a cis white male. Um and we each have topics that are more personal for us because of our identities and our experience. So there are definitely some topics that are more sensitive to me. Um and I'm sure there's more topics, there are topics that are sensitive to both of you. On top of this, you know, uh we have everything that's going on in our lives on a particular day, right? Um I know that there are days that I am not at my sunny best. Um and if you bring together a room of students, however many that is, is going to be students there that have just had something terrible happen to them or at least something annoying. And putting that on top of perhaps a topic that kind of touches a sensitive identity, um, you know, can can lead to a difficult conversation. And then before I stop, I just want to add one more thing as well. Um, I mean, as we're as we're talking about, I think there are things that instructors can do to make challenging conversations run more smoothly. Um and I'm not saying that a hot moment is necessarily the fault of an instructor, but I think putting some of that work in the beginning makes it less likely that that you're going to have a truly hot moment in the classroom later.

Derek Bruff 7:05

Bethany, what would you add to that? What do these moments look like and what what might lead to them, particularly from the student's perspective?

Bethany Morrison 7:12

Yeah, um, well, thank you for having me too. I'm very happy to be here. You and I have interacted before because we've been talking about teaching for civic and democratic engagement. Um, and that's kind of where I'm entering into the discussion. A lot of the work at my center that's been done around high-stakes discussions and hot moments have actually been done by like my excellent colleagues, and I'm going to talk about frameworks that has been developed by them as they've intersected with civic and democratic engagement. And I think what Rick said about the wide range of ways in which things can get hot is important. And narrowing it in today that we're talking about hot moments because of high-stakes topics. Um, and that means topics that students care about that's important to them and important to us. And that's why they get, that's why they're hot, you know, is because of that investment, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. Um, and as Rick said, um, we can do a lot of groundwork and structuring so that a high-stakes topic doesn't necessarily have to get hot. Um, in terms of what it looks like, I think we often think about high hot moments as eruptions of anger or eruptions of tears. And I think that can happen, but in my own teaching personally, um, I kind of think that it's actually more of like an ice cold moment where students shut down and and and are shutting off. Um, a time that I thought of in terms of my own teaching was, I mean, I teach political science, so there's a lot of political topics that people care about. Um, but I think one of the most challenging times for me was when I was just getting started as a teacher. Uh, I was co-teaching an undergraduate constitutional law class at the time um Brett Kavanaugh was up during Senate confirmation hearings for his appointment to the Supreme Court. And if you if you don't recall or if you weren't here at the time, um that was a particularly challenging confirmation hearing because it also connected he had been accused of sexual misconduct, and his accuser was also testifying. And so that had the ideology component that's almost always there in political science, but then also this other layer of tension around you know sexual abuse.

Derek Bruff 9:20

Sure, yeah. So how did that what did that look like in your classroom?

Bethany Morrison 9:27

So I think first we had to decide whether or not we were gonna talk about it. And and what we decided, we you know, and this is gonna go to some of the things we're talking about later, is that there were for us, it was a valuable learning opportunity to talk about Senate confirmation hearings and that process as it was happening. But we actually decided that it was okay to let students know that it was coming and that it would be okay for them to do an alternative reading if they decided they didn't want to come or that it wasn't the right time for them. And that's how we handled it at the time.

Derek Bruff 9:59

And so the, I mean, I'm hearing multiple layers there. Uh, one, as Rick said, our students come in the room with identities that we may not be aware of and experiences we're certainly not aware of. Um there are topics maybe that are squarely on target for our syllabus. Um and ordinarily, maybe a a uh less uh tension-filled Senate confirmation hearing might be a kind of easy way to connect your course to the current events, right? But in this case, there was this whole extra layer of sexual misconduct. Um and so when you take that and intersect it with students' political opinions, experience with sexual trauma, right? There's just a lot of potential for emotions to come in or um uh deeply held student beliefs to intersect with the course material. Um and as you say, that could be an emotional outburst, it could be anger, it could be tears, but it could also be a total shutdown, a wall of disengagement as students are like, I'm not gonna participate in this.

Rick Moore 11:05

Could I jump in just for a second?

Derek Bruff 11:07

Yeah.

Rick Moore 11:07

Um Bethany, I really appreciate you mentioning the kind of withdrawal, because I think, you know, it is true that we think, like just like you said, right? We I think we think that these moments are often outbursts of anger, and those can happen, but I agree that they're often really the opposite. And my what I worry about most in my coursework is losing students. And I don't mean like losing students like they drop the class, but rather that that they're going to disengage from that class session, but more importantly from the course as a whole. Um and that's why I think it's so important that we'll, you know, as we'll talk about, do the work to kind of hopefully make those conversations um as productive as they can be.

Derek Bruff 11:52

Yeah. So I think that's a good segue to my next question. Um as instructors, what professional or ethical responsibilities do we have in moments like these? Because I think that helps informed what decisions we might make on the ground, so to speak. Bethany, how would you address that question about professional or ethical responsibilities?

Bethany Morrison 12:16

Sure. So as I mentioned earlier, my colleagues have really helped me think about this work. And they kind of, in their curriculum around the work, they really distinguish between a hot moment and a high-stakes discussion. A hot moment is an unexpected and unanticipated eruption of tension or you know, strong feeling. Um, but a high-stakes discussion can have hot moments, but those are those are intentional planned conversations about a topic that is high stakes to the students because it matters to them, because it intersects with their identity. And I want to highlight that I do think that as instructors, we have a professional and ethical obligation to have high-stakes discussions. Um, in part, I'm coming at this from my work around civic and democratic engagement. I really strongly believe that we all across the disciplines are responsible for helping students become citizens and voters and participants in our community. And that means developing these skills to talk about high-stakes topics. Um, but I also think that in general, even if we're not talking about social issues and political issues, like students are more engaged when they're considering important questions. If we're telling them things that are old and established, we're not engaging them in the things that they're going to be doing in their lives, like big questions that they're going to have to contribute to. And so I think that we have a big obligation to approach high-stakes discussions and with our students. But I think our responsibilities change when a high-stakes discussion gets hot. Um, because even with the best planning and structures, there's still the possibility of an unexpected moment of conflict or anxiety or tension. And I think the first one I would want to highlight is um that we have a responsibility related to student learning. And that responsibility is about the fact that it is difficult to learn when our hearts are racing and we're upset. And so our responsibility to find ways to cool things down before we continue and move through and um forward with whatever happened.

Derek Bruff 14:13

First of all, I should say I like this, I really like this distinction between uh a high-stakes conversation and a hot moment. Um, and that both can be present, but they're not the same thing. Um Rick, how do you think about our professional responsibilities when navigating high-stakes discussions and hot moments?

Rick Moore 14:32

Yeah, again, Bethany, I I agree with what you said that I think we have an obligation, especially in certain disciplines, where these um these potentially controversial topics are really at our core, like political science, sociology, many other disciplines as well. Um and the way I think of it is our first responsibility is towards our students. Um and that can take multiple forms. So part of it is ensuring that they have this learning experience. Part of that, too, is making sure that they're okay. I think we have a responsibility to um as much as we can promote student wellness in our classes. Um, so if there is a hot topic, I mean, that or in a hot moment, um, that does mean potentially following up with students, having some resources available for students, um, et cetera.

Derek Bruff 15:29

Um Yeah, so well, and you're getting at what I what what was in my head um in an unformed way is that we have a kind of responsibility for student learning, which means, as you say, Bethany, like like we should take on the high-stakes topics because they're important, right? And there's value in helping students learn how to have high-stakes conversations in a productive way. Um, and we have a response, some level of responsibility of care for our students. We are not counselors, we are not psychologists. I mean, maybe one or two people are, but but that's not our role in the classroom, right? We are not there as a counselor. Um, but we are there as the teacher and as a human. Um and as and as someone in the room in a position of authority, right? I think that's the other thing I think about is that if some hot moment has broken out in class, uh it's uh I have a different set of tools to manage that than my students do because I'm the one at the front of the room managing the classroom, right? Um so what does that mean for our roles? Like what how how would, Bethany, what would you say about our our roles in managing hard conversations as as an instructor?

Bethany Morrison 16:44

I mean, I think one of our roles is to be really intentional about the planning of the experience, to really think through like what's this gonna look like? Uh, what what are my learning objectives? What structures am I gonna put in place? What's my plan for the unexpected? So I think that's that's a big role for us. Um I think on top of that, um I wanted to add to what what Rick was saying, he really reminded me of our responsibility for academic belonging in the classroom and this idea that we have a responsibility to not avoid and pretend it didn't happen, because when we do, what we're communicating is that for the folks that the comment hurt or the folks that got upset, that that maybe they don't belong in the discipline. Maybe these conversations aren't for them. Um, and so I think that's what another aspect of that care dimension is our role in communicating students' belonging in our discipline, even if they're they're different.

Rick Moore 17:42

And one way I think of that is that our role is to help manage the classroom environment. Um so it's not so much that we're dictating the conversation, but rather we're creating a space with structure for us to be able to have these kinds of conversations.

Derek Bruff 18:01

Now, Bethany, uh, so I want to talk about the kind of planning phase uh in a minute, um, but I know um, Bethany, your uh your teaching center's framework uh uh for planning those discussions on potentially hot topics, in that framework, the first step is to consider the stakes. And so what what do you usually mean by that when when you say consider the stakes?

Bethany Morrison 18:27

So I think when when we say that, the we're first thinking about the students, but we're also thinking about the stakes to faculty. And I'm gonna start with the student stakes, and maybe we can come back and speak a little bit to faculty stakes. Um so when we say consider the stakes, we are saying before you jump in and plan what you're gonna do, think about what the risks are, real or perceived, um, for students uh to participating in the this discussion. Um and I think those risks can feel academic. This concern that if I voice something that the instructor doesn't like, I might be affected in my grade or my ability to continue in this major. I think that also those risks are risks that are interpersonal. What will I be rejected by my classmates or my friends because I've said something that they don't agree with? Or will I feel like I belong among them when I when they realize or when I realize that they hold an opinion that I'm deeply uncomfortable with? So there are academic and interpersonal risks, but then they're also it's also important to think about the stakes to the outcome of in the real world of the issue that we're discussing, so that students come in as people and they're people who will be impacted by social issues, rhetoric, policy, um, and decisions that happen. And and and we can't see those always. So, you know, I can, you know, Rick said he introduced himself as a white cis male, but maybe I know that, maybe I don't. But I also don't know, you know, whether Rick has foster children or came from foster parents, or I don't know, Rick's citizenship, you know, like there's a lot of things that are not visible that will relate to the stakes that they have in the conversation in the real world. And that may impact how it plays out in the classroom discussion. So that's what we mean when we say consider the stakes. And there's not like a technical way to do this. I think I was kind of thinking, you know, like how does an instructor go about it? It's not, I think it's just about slowing down. And before you jump into planning something, think through these things. Make sure that you know you're not in a situation where you find yourself in class saying, well, we all agree this outcome is good or bad. That's that's that's what we're trying to avoid is the slowing down and thinking about these dimensions and reminding ourselves that they won't always be visible before we jump in and and using that information to inform our design choices.

Derek Bruff 20:52

Rick, how do you think about considering the stakes for uh for our students first?

Rick Moore 20:58

Yeah. Um I would agree with with you know basically everything that um Bethany has already said. Um I think sometimes we need to have an a moment of self-reflection. Um and that's gonna be important, I think, when we talk about the stakes for faculty as well. But I think that self-reflection can can help us think about what the stakes are um more broadly, kind of putting ourselves in other people's shoes. Um uh not to get all sociologists on us, but I kind of think of what's sometimes referred to as the ethnographic imagination, the idea of kind of putting oneself when doing ethnographic fieldwork into the position of the people that you're working with. And I think kind of using that with students, now we're not gonna know everything. We're not gonna be able to do that perfectly. We don't um have that close of a relationship with our students, but as much as we can trying to imagine things from another's perspective, um I think can help us do the things that Bethany was talking about of, you know, not assuming that everyone feels the same way in a class, um, which sometimes can be, I think, easy to do, um, especially for those of us that might teach in areas or institutions where there's a self-selection and there might seem to be kind of a default way of thinking about the things, be that political, social, etc.

Bethany Morrison 22:36

I really like that phrase from sociology. I haven't heard that before. I think one of the things that you reminded me of was especially in places where it feels like there's a lot of homogeneity in specific dimensions. I think what can happen is this idea for some folks that the conversation feels purely academic and an intellectual exercise. And it is easy to forget for folks that there are folks in the room for whom it's like deeply personal, especially when our campuses might not have, or our classrooms might not have um visible diversity in them.

Rick Moore 23:12

I was just gonna I was just gonna add that that this this is also something difficult and challenging and in some ways very pro provocative as well. Because it's easy to imagine yourself in the roles of people that are like you or that you agree with. It's a lot harder and I would even say riskier to one's sense of self to imagine yourself in the roles of people that maybe aren't like you, and maybe people that you as an instructor, yeah. I mean, we're instructors are people too. That we strikingly we are humans. I know, strikingly, you know, it's the latest research has shown that we also are humans, and that we're going to have at times very passionate disagreements with people in our classrooms. And so kind of taking that perspective is not easy.

Bethany Morrison 24:04

Can I tag on one more thing? I love this idea of imagining and uh you know exercising empathy. But one other strategy in our toolbox, especially if this seems hard for you, is that you can ask students. You can give students an overview of the course and what we're gonna do, and then you can have an anonymous survey and say, are there topics that you're worried about? Are there things you want to keep in mind as we go through the things that we said we do in this course? And that could be data to inform you too.

Derek Bruff 24:31

Absolutely. Right, because our imaginations are necessarily limited. Um, I want to talk more strategies, but I want to circle back to this notion of considering the stakes for ourselves. And I think particularly at this moment in 2025, that's something that we may have to pay a little more attention to than we have in the past. Um Bethany, how would you how would you help a faculty member consider the stakes for themselves when approaching particular topics this fall?

Bethany Morrison 25:01

So so when I brought this up, I was thinking about some of the events that you mentioned in the introduction. Um and and how it brings to mind for me that there's a lot of ways that we vary in terms of um our power on campus. So, you know, when I think about what's happening across the country, I think about like was a faculty member working at a public school or a private school? What state is the faculty member working in? Um, are they contingent faculty? Um and I think about all of those things, and it makes me think about a piece that that Thomas Tobin and uh I think his co-author was named Pittman wrote about

Derek Bruff 25:41

Chavella Pittman, yeah.

Bethany Morrison 25:42

Exactly. Your new colleague, right?

Derek Bruff 25:44

My new colleague at UVA, yeah.

Bethany Morrison 25:46

Um they wrote a piece that wasn't about this, but it was about the fact that they could do different things in terms of flexible course policies because their students reacted to them differently. So Tom talked about how he could use policies that were flexible and and it didn't cause the students to push or to doubt the instructors' um, you know, stick fastness to the policy. Whereas where Chavella used the same kinds of policies and it put a lot more work on her plate because it felt like it gave up, like opened up the door for lots of student pushback. And this is a very different situation, but just the idea that whether or not like two instructors can do the same thing and get different reactions, and so it's important to say to ourselves just because I can do it doesn't mean another person can do it. And just because I can do it doesn't mean it's the right thing for me to do given all these things that are going on. So just giving, I think, compassion to instructors as they decide for themselves the kinds of things that that that they feel like they can risk in given their context.

Derek Bruff 26:55

Rick, what would you add to that?

Rick Moore 26:57

Yeah, it's it's interesting. When you sent us these questions, I kind of I understood it as kind of the the stakes at engaging in these um challenging conversations. And, you know, like has already been talked about, it's obviously very contextual. Um what I you know, I I I've I've heard from some faculty that um, you know, in various disciplines that they're dialing back on some topics. Um I worry a lot about preemptive compliance, where things become, for whatever reason, um no-go zones that may be core to the kinds of learning experiences that we want to provide our students, might be core to our disciplines, might be core to our own ethical and moral obligations, and that kind of just taking those out. Um there's a cost to that. Um at the same time, um, because we are all in these different contextual spaces, I think it's really important um to consider that a person considers, an instructor considers kind of where your own personal lines are um and what you're willing to risk and what happens if that kind of that bet gets called. This is something I I've done for myself. Um, and I've, you know, I've I've thought consciously about what are the things that I'm in my professional life kind of willing to not compromise on, right? Um but we all have our own situations, as mentioned. You know, we have children, we're caregivers for people, we have spouses, we have our own, you know, mental health and well-being. And we have a duty to meet those obligations as well. So it is a weird balance of trying to, I know it's not really an answer. This it's it's so complicated, right? I think we all have to kind of for ourselves find that balance of taking care of ourselves and our other obligations, and then, you know, meeting this this kind of what has now become increasingly uh uh challenging and perhaps somewhat risky dangerous space in many ways.

Derek Bruff 29:13

Yeah. And to your point about our responsibility for student learning, uh I would argue that our country could use more citizens and residents who are able to have conversations about hard topics uh productively, right? And so if we if we do shy away from that because of the risk involved, again, I I'm not gonna judge anyone for doing that, but there's a downside to that, right? There's a there's a trade-off in terms of the learning that we might foster. Um I do think a couple of other contextual variables that have come up in conversations, I think is one to think about if something were to go sideways, what policies or procedures do you have in place at your institution that might help you navigate that? Or um what kind of support would you expect from your university's administration? That's going to vary for lots of reasons. Um, do you have a faculty union, right? Are there other kind of structures or organizations that might be able to play a role in navigating something that's gotten very complicated? Um, you may do this kind of. Calculation and come down and say, you know what, this semester for this topic, we're gonna avoid the high-stakes stuff. Um, and uh, you know, I I I I can I can see making that choice. Bethany.

Bethany Morrison 30:41

I just want to add, I love all of this. I think it's it's nuanced and important. But one other thing I want to add is that it is often not a binary choice of do I do a high-stakes discussion or not. It's it is there are there are there are things we can ask students to do that are perhaps more the possibility of disagreement is higher. There are things that we can ask students to do that are a stepping stone towards this point. And so let's it's you know, I might decide. So, for example, I gave with the example I gave about um Brett Kavanaugh, we had a discussion, but I had a pathway to to not engage if it wasn't right for you. If I thought something was gonna be really high stakes, I might have uh a reflection that's independently done rather than a class discussion. Or I might, you know, want students to have the opportunity to engage with it in a you know major assessment, but I give them a couple of options so that you know there are the point is that our toolbox is graduated, and so there are there are it's not one or yeah, that's my point.

Derek Bruff 31:45

Yeah, so like are there ways that we might help students grapple with this topic that don't involve a classroom discussion that could get hot, right? Um, that's not the only way that people learn, and that's not the only learning activity we have in our courses. What about strategies, right? We've talked a little bit. I I want to try to kind of move us towards some more concrete strategies. Um, what are some techniques that you all might recommend? Um, let's start before the hot moment happens. What are some things that you might put into place before the hot moment um that might help um balance these competing responsibilities that we have? Rick, I'll start with you.

Rick Moore 32:27

Yeah, I mean, there's a there's a lot of options. Um the thing that always comes up is setting ground rules and things for discussion, but I want to back up a second and and suggest that it's a lot more than that, right? This isn't like a list that you can say, I'm gonna do these three things. Now I'm ready to talk about the most controversial topic or really anything. Um, I think the most important thing is the overall classroom environment that an instructor tries to build. Um so there's gonna be lots of things that contribute it. You know, already we've talked a little bit about feelings of belonging in the classroom. Kind of doing all of the things that we know through through research helps students succeed more generally, creating community in the classroom, creating a sense of belonging in the classroom, you know, sharing as much as you can as an instructor, personal feeling, like experiences, um, um, talking about failure, engaging, encouraging and growth mindset, et cetera. So it's it's I think it's not about so much. I mean, it is there's things that you can do that are going to help make those conversations go. But if you're not kind of if you if you prepare the ground, those were fall in fertile ground and and grow much more than if you hadn't done that. Um so so but um I think once you're kind of working to create an environment where there is an environment of trust and community, then these other things that you can do, such as working with students to create collective guidelines for discussions, can um be much more fruitful. Bethany?

Bethany Morrison 34:11

So everything that Rick said, it's it's an absolute requirement. Um that that classroom of trust, that idea that we're together in a community and we've kind of talked about together what our discussion guidelines are is crucial. Um, the the other thing I wanted to add is a separate thing, which is I think that there's a lot of power in building connections between the topics, like strong connections between the topics that are in the real world, hot, high-stakes topics, and the discipline that we're in and the course that we're in. So we called it in our retreat around the election, building course connections to the topics and helping them see how talking about the election or talking about policy or social issues actually not is not just a side note because I'm a political person and I want you to be indoctrinated with my politics, but it's actually deeply connected to the things we're trying to accomplish in the course. Um, I have an example if you would like to hear that. Yeah, I'd like to hear that. Um so in fall 2020, which was the summer after the Black Lives Matter protests and after George Floyd's death, um I was teaching an undergraduate course in political science that was about the US courts system, the theories of judicial politics and how US courts work. Um and it didn't have to talk about this topic, but I designed the course around a motivating question, which was why did the Supreme Court decline to hear a case that summer on that would revisit the law around qualified immunity, which is what protects public officials like police officers from lawsuits for excessive use of force. Um, so it's like we didn't have to do it in it. We're gonna do it. Um, and in the final paper, the students were asked to um make a theory as to how each justice voted in that decision to not hear the case. And had to back up their theory, um, their explanation with the theories we were learning about judicial decision making in a judicial politics course. Now, I I might have just gotten lucky, but I think that incorporating the current event and asking students to answer a political science question about the topic put parameters and direction around our discussion of the topic. Um it said, you know, it said we can talk about this, but here's here's the framework and here's where we're trying to get to. And so it wasn't an open conversation about George Floyd, but it was an opportunity to think about it in a framed way with the parameters and direction around it.

Derek Bruff 36:38

And you're not asking the students to share what they think about qualified immunity and how it's handled in the courts. You're asking a much more um, I don't want to say objective, but it's it's a it's a it's a little more detached, right? It's it's we're analyzing a system that's already in place. These judges made decisions, what what judicial thinking might get them there?

Bethany Morrison 37:00

Yeah.

Derek Bruff 37:01

So it's a concrete application using a set of analytical tools straight from the discipline. Um and I would imagine you're being pretty transparent with students to say these these are the frameworks, these are the analytical tools that political scientists use, and that's what we're practicing with in this in this instance.

Bethany Morrison 37:17

And it gives us an opportunity to talk about um what political science can do and what it can't do, and the idea that both of those things, what it can do and what it can't do, they're still important things. So political science, the way I was trained, is is a is a field designed to explain um and predict behavior and phenomenon. Um, it is not designed to answer questions about what ought to be, what values ought to be embedded in our decision making. And so it gave me an opportunity to say, like, you're allowed to have ideological feelings about what happened here, and those matter. Um but political science is like a place, what it's able to do, it's its contribution is to help us understand what happened. And then you can take your values and your you know ideological beliefs or wherever you're coming from, and you can use that information and you know go off and be a person that tries to affect change in the world.

Derek Bruff 38:15

Yeah. I love that notion that it's here's what the discipline can do and here's what it can't do. And both of those are important, right? We're not saying the thing it can't do is not important. We're just saying that it can't do that. And so it can maybe inform that. Um, and and so there's there's kind of value in the interplay, but but we're gonna focus on building up the things that it can do and help you understand that really well.

Rick Moore 38:41

Yeah, I think that's really interesting, Bethany. That's very similar to what I do in some of my own courses. Um, my subfield within sociology is sociology of religion. And this is a discussion that we have right at the beginning in of every class, every course. And I know this is something that happens, you know, in religious many religious studies courses as well, is defining the parameters of what we're doing. That in my case, it is about taking a perspective, a social scientific perspective, and using that to analyze this thing we call religion. And we talk about the differences between that and say theology, where one is kind of doing religion. And um, having taught sociology or religion for quite a while now, I have to say, you know, I have not had a lot of issues because I think in that situation, people also know coming into that course that they're, you know, they're taking something called sociology of religion, you know, um, and then discussing this parameter, is it's somewhat clear. And I have had people that through the co through the through the course of, you know, uh self-declose that they are evangelical Christian, that they are self-identified atheists, that they are a Muslim, etc. Um, but because the conversation is defined, kind of, kind of structured um through the discipline, I think that goes a long way to helping us have conversations that are focused again on the scholarship, what the scholarship says, what different theoretical perspectives say, and less on what personal feelings say about something.

Derek Bruff 40:22

Well, we're coming up on time, and I know there's a lot that we've left unsaid here, um, but I wanted to give you each a chance to share any any last words of wisdom or encouragement for our listeners. Bethany?

Bethany Morrison 40:37

So I wanted to go back. We've talked a lot about the high-stakes discussions and planning ahead for high-stakes discussions, but we've said this a little earlier, but even the best plan can't, you know, eliminate the possibility that hot, hot moments, like you know, flares of tension or big emotion will come up in the in the course of having those discussions. And so I really wanted to highlight um that there are really valuable in the moment resources. I valued some of the things that my colleagues have made that are actual just their scripts. And I really value this language that I can apply in the moment. Um, they have a whole category of language you can use to buy yourself some time to think. And I think those are really valuable. And another set of language around like how you know, how can I ask a student who said something pretty divisive or controversial to explain themselves or you know, to clarify, or give them the chance to say it again, or you know, language that'll help me help the class see the potential impact of the divisive thing that was said. And so I think you know, there are there are really great tools out there for in the moment, uh hot moments. And I think for me in particular, I've really valued scripts, practice language, because in the moment when I'm panicking, I don't want to go through a whole theoretical framework. I want to have tools that I can immediately call on and practice.

Derek Bruff 42:02

I love that. I love that. Yeah.

Rick Moore 42:04

If I could just echo that too, and say that, you know, we kind of had this discussion today that it's a little bit on the kind of meta level, but there is a lot of resources out there. Um, I know the UVA teaching hub has several articles actually dealing with this that point to resources um um that have the kinds of scripts that Bethany was was talking about. Um the other thing I would like to add though is to give yourself some grace. Um basically, when a difficult when a hot moment happens in a classroom, when something like this happens, it never feels good in the moment. Um difficult conversations, we call them difficult for a reason. Um and you know it's unlikely that if some challenging some moment happens in the classroom that you're gonna deal with that perfectly, that you're gonna say in the moment, oh yeah, I did I did super on that, right? Um so I think it's important that you give yourself some grace and then also find your own support network, be that your own center for teaching and learning, be that colleagues in your department, be that friends that aren't even in academia, um, take care of yourself. Um, because that's really important that you also have someone that you can say, you know what, I just had the craziest class today, and I need I need someone just to talk through it and and figure out, you know, figure things out for myself.

Derek Bruff 43:35

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, have someone you can talk that through and get a different perspective and to kind of ground yourself a little bit. And to know, especially if you have done the work to create that kind of classroom environment ahead of time, that you probably will get to see your students in a couple of days. And even if the moment didn't go like you wanted it to, the course isn't over yet, right? And so to think about and maybe we have asked that colleague to say, what can I do in my next class period? What can I do before then that might help me continue to work this well with my students? Um, thank you both. I know again, this is a huge topic and there's lots more we could say about it. Um, I will I will put a lot of links in the show notes to some of the resources that you both mentioned and that you've collected and curated uh for for UVA and for others for for anyone who wants to kind of dive into scripts and and particular strategies. But um I know a lot of faculty are kind of worried about this fall and maybe faculty who aren't used to dealing with hot moments around controversial topics. Um and so I appreciate you sharing your experience and your wisdom as a couple of folks who've had to do this for quite some time. So um thanks for being here and thanks for sharing.

Rick Moore 44:51

Thank you, Derek, for moderating. Happy to do it.

Derek Bruff 44:57

That was Rick Moore, Associate Director for Faculty Programming at the Center for Teaching and Learning at Washington University in St. Louis, and Bethany Morrison, Assistant Director at the Center for Research on Learning and Teaching at the University of Michigan. Thanks to both of them for taking the time to come on the show and sharing their experience and expertise. I learned a lot from the conversation, and I hope our listeners did too.

Derek Bruff 45:20

I have one more piece of advice, and this comes from past podcast guest Stacey Johnson, whom I worked with at Vanderbilt University for many years. Stacy told me that when a hot moment breaks out in a class, it can be useful to pause the conversation and ask students to take a few minutes in silence to write about what's happening. A prompt like, What are you feeling right now? or why is this a hard conversation can be a very useful reflection in the moment, and taking that time to write quietly can de-escalate a tense situation. Stacy emphasized that this reflective writing technique is even more effective if you've practiced it with your students before a hot moment happens. If you can find ways to weave this kind of reflection into your class discussions early in the semester, then when you really need this teaching move, your students are already prepared to do it.

Derek Bruff 46:08

As I mentioned at the end of my conversation with Bethany and Rick, I've loaded up the show notes with links to a lot of useful resources. Please check them out if you'd like other ideas for leading high-stakes discussions.

Derek Bruff 46:20

Intentional Teaching is sponsored by UPSEA, the Online and Professional Education Association. In the show notes, you'll find a link to the UPSEA website where you can find out about their research, networking opportunities, and professional development offerings. This episode of Intentional Teaching was produced and edited by me, Derek Bruff. See the show notes for links to my website and socials, and to the Intentional Teaching newsletter, which goes out most weeks on Thursday or Friday. If you found this or any episode of Intentional Teaching useful, would you consider sharing it with a colleague? That would mean a lot. As always, thanks for listening.