67: Advocating for Resilience--Personal Struggle to Mental Health Reform, with Bobby Temps

Sometimes, a single voice can ignite a movement.

In the second in the series, Advocating for Resilience: Empowering Mental Wellness, we talk with Bobby Temps, whose petition for mental health education changed the landscape for England and Wales.

Join us as we discuss the intersection of personal passion and advocacy, revealing how individual experiences can lead to transformative policies and a society more in tune with mental well-being. Bobby and I unpack the emotional cost of advocacy and the critical nature of self-care and community support to sustain our efforts. If you've ever felt the burnout of fighting for a cause close to your heart, this episode will resonate deeply, offering insights on balancing drive with rest and realism.

Join us for a heartfelt exploration of the tenacity required to push for systemic change and the intricate dance of resilience, compassion, and trauma-sensitive leadership.

Bobby Temps is a mental health advocate, podcaster, model, and producer. Learn more about Bobby on his website, and by listening to one of his two podcasts:

• Mental  In which Bobby and guests break down mental health stigma and discrimination.
•  Dating Games  The place to hear comedians and other funny people discuss the realities of modern dating

Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.

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Producer / Editor: Neel Panji

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Transcript

Bobby Temps: 1:16

I have no interest in being impartial on the topics that matter to me. Mental health stigma is bad. It harms people. It holds people back from getting support. I'm not going to stay neutral on it, and so for me it's such a strength, these personal connections. You know that it is not some kind of coincidence that so many people working in mental health have this deep connection, this real passion about it, and not for nothing you're implying that you'd need it because there's so much work to do.

Manya Chylinski: 1:50

Hello, welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, Manya Chylinski, and my guest today is Bobby Temps. He is the host of Mental Podcast, which is designed to break down mental health stigma and discrimination. He is also known for successfully petitioning for mental health education to be added to the curriculum for schools across England and Wales, and he is an amazing mental health advocate. We had a wonderful conversation about the topic of advocacy for this episode in our new series, advocating for Resilience.

Manya Chylinski: 2:31

I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. I know I did Listen to Notes on Resilience on Apple Podcasts and subscribe, and we'd love for you to leave a review too. And hey, I'm really curious would you recommend this show to a friend? If not, would you be willing to let me know why? Send me an email right now and tell me what's stopping you from recommending Notes on Resilience to your friends. What can I do to make this the kind of show you would recommend to your friends? I want to make a show that people really enjoy and brings value to their lives. You can email me at Manya@manyachylinski. com or fill out the form in the show notes.

Manya Chylinski: 3:12

Thanks, bobby, I'm so excited to get you on my podcast. It's so good to see you.

Bobby Temps: 3:18

It's so nice we were having a lovely little catch up before. It's been a long time coming. We both have active lives, so yeah, it's great to be here.

Manya Chylinski: 3:26

Yeah, well, before we dive into the important topic that we're talking about today, I ask all my guests this year this question If you could have dinner with any historical figure, who would it be and why?

Bobby Temps: 3:42

so the one that immediately comes to mind is Nina Simone. She's a massive inspiration to me and a lot of that is to do with you know what she achieved. You know as a visionary, of course, with music, but also with advocacy in her own. You know fields. You know particularly civil rights and human justice in the states, and I find her kind of spirit and her relentless drive incredible. When she was so up against the times and there's a documentary about her on Netflix where I believe it's her daughter talks about her always being in Congress with herself but rarely being in Congress with the world and something about that really speaks to me. That you know so much of what we're both passionate about is looking to the future and what we would like to see change and knowing that how important you know, both personally and professionally, mental health is, but not always seeing that reflected in the world. So there's something about her striving, even though there was so much pushback, just continues to inspire me.

Manya Chylinski: 4:52

Oh, I love that. I wish I could make these dinners happen for people. They're just so amazing. Thank you for sharing that. So we are talking about, as you said, advocacy and looking into whether it's formal advocacy or grassroots advocacy, looking at how we shape policy and how we shape the world when we're looking at trauma and mental health and wanting to uncover some insights and how we can continue to be changing this world to make it a better place. And I couldn't think of anybody I wanted to talk to more than you, bobby, for lots of reasons, but one big one is that you successfully petitioned to get mental health on the curriculum in schools in England, and I know that was an incredibly long, intense effort. But can you just give us the overview of what does that look like?

Bobby Temps: 5:55

For sure. So it's something that was very personal to me. I'm mainly known as a mental health podcaster and, by extension, known for this campaign, and that, like many people that have a big connection to this topic, comes from a very personal place and for me it was so obvious. I guess it's that idea of like being congruous with yourself. It was so obvious to me how important this was and then, again and again, I would have conversations like that through my work, through the podcasting, and have it affirmed why is this not on the curriculum? Why do we learn so many things and why is there not just a lack of parity but the zero for so many people growing up about mental health?

Bobby Temps: 6:45

And yet we've had such strides in terms of physical education and that was really the seed of it, and from there a petition was a way to galvanize and organize that support and we passed 200,000 signatures, which makes it one of the largest petitions of the year and indeed it's considered by the British Parliament. When you get 100,000, they have to formally respond and potentially organise a debate from there. So that was kind of the catalyst to sort of drive this thing forward. And of course it brought about a lot of important conversations. I got to host many of them myself. I got to be involved with you know, government as they began to plan this and then, in the midst of the pandemic, in September 2020, it finally launched launched. It had been commissioned previously, but it was such a light in a really difficult year to see that, even with all the people going through especially, in many ways, young people that were having their schooling, their routine, their sense of structure and, to an extent, safety, all undermined, to have this thing launch for a new school year in 2020.

Manya Chylinski: 8:02

Wow, and what's so telling to me is the number of signatures you got, like how important an issue this is to people, that and now they had an avenue to share that, hey, this is an important issue. Well, congratulations on that success. It's huge and, as you know, is going to make the difference in so many people's lives by helping young kids in England and Wales, you know, learn more about mental health and then, as they get older, hopefully we'll continue to use those skills. Then, as they get older, hopefully we'll continue to use those skills. So I've thrown about the term advocacy a couple times. What is advocacy to you?

Bobby Temps: 8:46

For me I think a lot of my definition at this stage comes from a very practical place that we can feel so overwhelmed by the state of the world currently.

Bobby Temps: 8:59

There are so many issues where we're aware of, you know, to a whole different extent, like seeing what's happening in Palestine and having that, you know, literally live streamed in a way that we've we've never seen before for that kind of catastrophe, and we were talking off air about how easy it is to get burnt out when campaigning, when being an advocate, and so I guess my answer comes from that place of.

Bobby Temps: 9:21

For me, it's been choosing the my area that I will speak up and I will not hold back my opinion on any topic, but I choose the one where I have the expertise, I have a certain amount of contacts and possibility to make change around me and I really focus on that. And so that's been the thing that I can't change everything in the world as much as I would love to, but I can take something, and for me this has been one of the kind of defining missions of my life is mental health, education and setting young people up with the tools that you know, frankly, I wished I had, and you know from there. No doubt it has so many positive repercussions, not just for the individual but how we interact and empathize with each other. You know, I don't think I'm making a crazy leap to say if we're all better at empathy, if we're all better at caring for each other and looking after each other, why wouldn't that go as far as making wars less likely, making genocide less likely?

Manya Chylinski: 10:31

as far as making wars less likely, making genocide less likely, absolutely. But you know you talk about sort of the personal side of it and I think as advocates, most, if not all of us come at it from a personal perspective. This is the thing that I wish was different in the world for me or for my loved one, because I see what happens when it isn't the way that I want it to be. But how do you even approach that to be able to make meaningful change? We all are dissatisfied with something I would imagine in the system in the world, and many, many, many of these are incredible causes that would benefit all of us if they were changed. But that's a big thing. How do you approach that?

Bobby Temps: 11:15

Yeah, absolutely no. There's definitely an intimidating nature to how much we would love to see change. And you know, I would want to start off by, you know, first off, affirming this personal connection that sometimes and it is, you know, part of stigma, and that's a big part of my work my podcast is all about campaigning against stigma there can be this stigma around having this personal connection that somehow it can be a mark against your, you know, credibility or your impartiality in some way. I have no interest in being impartial on the topics that matter to me, like mental health. Stigma is bad. It harms people, it holds people back from getting support. I'm not going to stay neutral on it, and so for me it's such a strength, these personal connections. You know that it is not some kind of coincidence that so many people working in mental health have this deep connection, this real passion about it, and not for nothing, like you're implying there, you'd need it because there's so much work to do. So absolutely be passionate about it, have that connection. So first I'd affirm that and then, in terms of making those changes, it is finding, okay, what facilities are available to me, and that includes the people around me, my connections. It's not with what we've been talking about.

Bobby Temps: 12:42

A petition was a really clear way that paid off very well in terms of a lot of my campaigning clear way that paid off very well in terms of a lot of my campaigning. I couldn't have done that on my own. I had incredible people I worked with. I had the support of so many people following the campaign. I got MPs you know, members of parliament from across the UK to support it, of different parties. This all added to the credibility that I'm not just some random guy trying to do it all on my own, because that doesn't lend as much credibility when trying to create systemic change. You know it works with, you know, a force of people behind it, so personal to us. There can be an emotional toll of doing this work.

Manya Chylinski: 13:37

So how do you balance doing the advocacy work with taking care of yourself and maintaining your own well-being?

Bobby Temps: 13:45

Well, that has been a difficult lesson to learn. Being Well, that has been a difficult lesson to learn. You know, for me it has been a lot of burning out at many points in my life and each time being like we can't do this again and then doing it again. So it's not been an easy lesson to learn.

Bobby Temps: 14:02

But you know, if people take anything away from this, you know I would hope it would be that you, there is change that you can make. It is possible. It doesn't have to be everything, but you can choose something and you can have an impact. You can't do it all alone. The answer isn't I do 80 hours a week. The answer is find people around you, get that support. Reach out, make meaningful connections. And you know there are already people in power that want to make change that you can band together with versus going out alone. And you see that a lot that people try and take on everything on their own and when you, like you said, it's personal. It is difficult emotionally to talk about a topic so passionately and not everyone will get it. But they're not the people you're trying to reach.

Manya Chylinski: 14:55

And you know, I often think of advocacy and policy together, which they do go together, but not exclusively, and you know you're talking about don't go it alone. So advocacy work could be as simple as educating other people that this is something that's important. One of the most powerful things to me was when I heard somebody repeat back to me something that I had said that I had never heard anybody else say, and I thought, well, I don't know if they heard it from me, but it's out there now and people are now thinking about this issue in this way. That happens to be the way that I think of it, and so I thought, all right, well, we're building the army or we're changing the world one person at a time. You know we're changing the world one person at a time.

Bobby Temps: 15:48

Yeah, no, no, no, it's true, it makes such a difference and you know, I think you know that's that's another part of this conversation when making change, it doesn't just look like one thing. You know, we started off the conversation talking about mental health education. But indeed on your podcast, every episode you do, you're having meaningful conversation that somebody may have never heard that topic being addressed in their life before and that could sit with them for the rest of their life and inform big decisions, inform how they treat others, inform whether or not they seek support or become the support for others or become the support for others. So we can't under stress that in a world of kind of statistics and global news, the local, personal, communal effort is so vital.

Manya Chylinski: 16:39

Well, and you mentioned the number of signatures you got for your petition. Those were individuals who learned about the issue, people you made an effect on through your own podcast, through your own work, you know, through the work of others. So, yeah, I mean it is important work and it's easy, I think, for me anyway, as an advocate, to forget that sometimes the little things can have a big impact. You just aren't necessarily going to be able to measure that.

Bobby Temps: 17:09

Yeah, well, this is it. You can't always see it, it doesn't mean it's not happening. So you know 200,000 people signing a petition. They're sharing it with friends, they're bringing that conversation home with them. You know that is so meaningful in itself, before the education even got enacted. There's so much there about this many people talking about and thinking about a topic and coming together and even just the affirmation of seeing your beliefs reflected. You know how many times I have people write in to our podcast and you know they're so grateful that we addressed a topic because that particular condition. They've had it for their whole lifetime and they've never heard a mature, informed conversation about it. Or we have so many people that listen to the show because they have a family member or friend with a diagnosis and they want to understand more, or they want to know how to be more sensitive to their needs and that is part of the solution right there. You know that is making change.

Manya Chylinski: 18:13

There is so much power in hearing somebody share their story and realizing, oh, I'm not alone, that's happened to me, and I've been feeling like I was the only one and I know that personally. And how amazing it was to have that feeling of, oh, no people know about this, it's just we don't talk about it. And now I need to look for these people, find these people.

Bobby Temps: 18:39

Oh, they're out there. There's no stopping me talking about mental health. Now, you know I am like it's it's fun, but it it's also like there is a serious point there. And you know, one of the things that does still get me emotional, you know, when I think about it, is that I have, with my work, not only got to, you know, making impact in other people's lives, and that is that is so difficult to wrap your head around. You know the millions of kids going through an education system or the millions of downloads we've had for a podcast. You know, to try and kind of wrap your brain around that is really tricky.

Bobby Temps: 19:17

I never kind of went into this for my, my own sort of personal stuff, but inevitably these conversations bring a lot home to you. And the one thing I think about all the time is that I've had this opportunity, I've made this opportunity really to create a life and an environment for myself where emotions are not off the table, where not only do I have the space to talk about mental health, including my own, it's beyond that, it's an expectation. If I don't talk about mental health, if I don't talk about my feelings as a young man who wasn't taught that that was acceptable or even how to do that. If I don't talk about that stuff now, there are people out there that will be disappointed. Talk about that stuff now. There are people out there that will be disappointed and that is such a flip of the script on how I grew up and what the little me really needed.

Manya Chylinski: 20:13

Oh, I hear you. That just rings so true to me as well. Well, what are some of the things that you do to maintain your motivation as an advocate I motivation.

Bobby Temps: 20:27

You know it's, it's tricky because it does vary, you know, and I think there's there's some shame to be zapped out of that you know that there are times when we are going through things in our lives or, you know, more exhausted one week than the other. And just because we're less motivated about a topic, it's no core reflection on us. It us, it's human. You know, and I've had to learn not even to forgive myself, that I don't need to be forgiven for this week I have to psych myself up to do a recording which normally I'd be excited to have that conversation and generally when I get into it I'm still excited. But you know, we're all people, we all go through different moods and that's very much part of the human experience. So, you know, motivation for me is, you know, setting fair expectations for yourself. You can't be happy all the time, you can't be motivated all the time, and you know so. So maybe there's there's days where it's like, okay, well, today I am copying and pasting pitch emails to people and maybe tomorrow is the day I do something more taxing. But, most importantly, there are also days where you do nothing and that has been very difficult to learn.

Bobby Temps: 21:39

I genuinely as strange as it might sound to some people, I grew up not really knowing what people did on their days off. I came from a very kind of workaholic, centric family and I very much took that on. Has that been a part of my success? Yes, but rest has also very much been a part of my success. So, again on the motivation piece, you don't have to be working all the time. You don't have to be working all the time. You don't have to be motivated all the time. You'll find it's a lot easier to just go with your natural state, your natural flow of emotions, than it is to set impossible expectations Because you know what It'll ruin the time when you are motivated, because you'll be too busy thinking about not doing enough yesterday.

Manya Chylinski: 22:21

Yes, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. I know that early on, I also had to learn that it's okay to not be doing something every single day. It really is okay to rest or think about other things. It doesn't mean that the cause isn't important. It just means that I am also important and my health is important. So what advice do you have for people who might be looking to become an advocate for a cause that they believe in?

Bobby Temps: 22:49

I'd say an important step is to very much look at what's already out there. You know there can be this impulse to sort of see how systemic a lot of gaps in support can be and want to jump in and try and solve all of that and set up your own thing. There are so many incredible services, platforms already out there that can be a great kind of step in to see, okay, how can I, yes, answer this. There's so much work to be done, so a great starting point can be there. So for myself, the first mental health role I ever had was volunteering with Samaritans, which is a suicide prevention hotline in the UK and Ireland, and that was not not only incredible to be a part of and gave me such a network of people with shared the shared cause and vision and interest. You know that, that great kind of social piece. That was really uplifting, but also it very much still informs the work I do today.

Bobby Temps: 23:49

You know a lot of the listening skills that benefit me as a podcaster or even just benefit me when I'm, you know, having difficult conversations with policymakers. I don't try to. You know I've got to listen to what they're saying in order to best get my point across. You know, those skills were first honed in that voluntary role where I got free training and I got to do, you know, quite minimal hours, for the incredible impact that it had on my life. So you know that would be the starting point. You know, the same way I always say to people go be a guest on some podcasts and then start your own. You'll learn so much from that and then you know you'll see how they conduct an interview, the little affair chat that they have, what that's like.

Manya Chylinski: 24:30

You know, these are the pieces you can't know unless you dive in right, you know, as you were talking, it reminded me of something I think about every once in a while. So if you just look at the space that you and I are in mental health and trauma and you think about the number of organizations nonprofits, for example that exist to take a bite at one piece of the project, and the number of people who are advocating every once in a while, I think how come, with all of this work and all of this effort, we still have to be advocating. We haven't made enough systemic change that we can just say you know, great mental health done.

Bobby Temps: 25:19

And I, you know, I don't know if this is a blessing or a curse, I don't think it ever will be done. But then also, you know that's the very nature of it, right that there's always going to be ways that we want to evolve this conversation, you know even in the years I've been doing this kind of work.

Bobby Temps: 25:38

You know so much of the language has changed, and I agree with so much of the language changing, and I also give you plenty of ideas how I think it will continue to evolve. So it's never going to be done, but it's also not meant to be done. We need to continue to evolve how we look after each other better. That's what it comes down to, and you know. So that kind of actually is something that brings me hope as opposed to trepidation, and you know I absolutely could talk at length on how much I would love to see change, but also I can tell you about all the things that have already changed, like in your, your questions that you sent over.

Bobby Temps: 26:15

Um, you were thinking to you know, maybe bring up the topic of self-care, and you know that that's a term that even in the last few years, we've seen how that's been a mental health specific term that most people don't know to now being a very common phrase that is so common it's now co-opted by marketing, like what could possibly be the opposite of stigma than all the big companies jumping on board to try and make money, jumping on board to try and make money, like it's. You know self-care is now so lauded that it's monetizable as opposed to being some kind of niche mental healthy term. So you know it is. It is great to see and having a bath, but that's not the whole story. So there's still progress to go, but I'm delighted that people now know what self-care is.

Manya Chylinski: 27:17

Yeah, Well, I appreciate that perspective. I know I sometimes can get caught up in the frustration of that feeling, but I like the idea of well, let's look at how far we have come and look at this as a positive. So we're going to have to wrap up. What are your final thoughts that you want to share and make sure the listeners know about advocacy, about you, about your work?

Bobby Temps: 27:36

Oh, final thoughts. See, now, that's the most difficult question. That's such an open-ended one. Final thoughts, that's such an open-ended one. Final thoughts. You know, I think if anything's kind of rung through in the things I've said today, it probably has been. You know, looking after yourself, you know, and that is an essential tenant of self-care, this idea that you can't pour from an empty cup, you know the airline analogy is, you know you've got to fit your own oxygen mask first and we can't forget that. You know.

Bobby Temps: 28:08

I think that the listeners of your show know how important advocacy is and I'm glad that they're tuning in to learn about the next steps. So we're on the same page there. There's a lot of work to be done. It's important work. Part of getting that work done is minding the people doing the work each other like. Otherwise, you know, if nothing else, there's a deep irony there. If we're all running around trying to change the mental health of the world and we're not doing that for ourselves, we're kind of uh, we're kind of pulling back on our very own mission. Right, and you know, and it and it's not just like colloquially. You know, burnout is a systemic issue across healthcare, across advocacy, across campaigning, public speaking, you know so many of the areas we're involved in. This is an issue, and so I guess yeah, really that is what's on my mind today, as someone that's not had a lot of sleep on Paddy's Day weekend and is looking forward to going to bed early tonight yes, because I deserve it, you know.

Manya Chylinski: 29:13

You absolutely do, and we picked an interesting day to do our recording me not thinking at all about St Patrick's Day and how that might impact. So, before we wrap up, tell our listeners how they can reach you and your podcast and learn more about you.

Bobby Temps: 29:30

Sure, absolutely. So. I'm proud to say I'm quite Google-able at this point. So if you search Bobby Champs, b-o-b-b-y-t-e-m-p-s is my name, so, either in your podcasting app of choice or just on the world wide web, then, uh, all my links should come up to my podcasting, to my campaigning. You can still sign the petition. The petition's still there, um, and the work is not done. I would like to see it expanded to ireland, where I live. Uh, I was living in the uk at the time the petition starting, and Scotland and Northern Ireland included in that as well. So, yeah, it goes on, it continues.

Manya Chylinski: 30:12

The work continues. Bobby, thank you for the work that you do and for sharing with me and our listeners today. It's just been so great to talk with you.

Manya Chylinski: 30:22

It's been a delight, thank you. Thank you for listening. I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I did. So if you'd like to learn more about me, manja Cilinski, I work with organizations to help understand how to create environments where people can thrive after difficult life experiences, and I do this through talks and consulting. I'm a survivor of mass violence violence and I use my experience to help leaders learn about resiliency, compassion and trauma-sensitive leadership to build strategies to enable teams to thrive and be engaged amidst difficulty and turmoil. If this is something you want to learn more about, visit my website, www. manyachylinski. com, or email me at manya@manyachilinskicom, or stop by my social media on LinkedIn and Twitter. Thanks so much.