105: Building Trust with Janice Brathwaite

What is the difference between empathy and compassion?

Join us for an enlightening conversation with Janice Brathwaite, the CEO and founder of Workplace Transformations, as she shares her journey from a disengaged consultant to a passionate executive coach championing compassionate leadership.

We discuss why compassion involves taking proactive steps to improve situations rather than merely sharing in someone’s feelings, the role emotional intelligence plays in leadership (which is often sidelined for strategic and operational prowess), the skills leaders need to foster effective and empathetic team interactions, and the role of psychological safety in enhancing organizational health and employee well-being.

Explore the hurdles faced by new leaders when they do not get sufficient training and the role of coaching and mentoring in nurturing their growth. Janice sheds light on the communication gap between executive leaders and frontline teams, emphasizing the necessity of understanding one's audience to bridge this divide. 

You can reach Janice on her website or on LinkedIn.

Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.

Chapters

• 1:14 Compassion in Leadership
• 5:33 Leadership Development and Communication Skills
• 15:05 Leadership Challenges in Remote Work

Transcript

Janice Brathwaite: 1:15

I have to give leaders some grace and understanding that they're human beings. You know, like that's what I wanted people to read into this. These are human beings you're talking about. They're not robots, they're not. They have feelings, they have problems, they have family, they have kids. You know all of those kinds of things and the pressure of being all things to all people is really really a lot and that's what kind of makes the leader kind of crumble really.

Manya Chylinski: 1:44

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, manya Chylinski. My guest today is Janice Brathwaite. She is the CEO and founder of Workplace Transformations and she's also a certified executive coach, and she uses her skills to help leaders identify and embrace new ways of working and thinking. We had a fabulous conversation about compassion in leadership and a little bit about management by walking around and how that can help leaders become more compassionate. I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation, janice. I'm so excited to talk with you and you are starting out our 2025 season, so thank you for being here. Thank you, that's an honor.

Manya Chylinski: 2:36

This year. The question I'm asking everybody as we start is what's one thing that you have done that you never thought you would do?

Janice Brathwaite: 2:47

One of the things that I did was back in early 2000s I started a little consulting business. I had left the for-profit world and I was going out on my own and I realized after I started, especially doing the training piece of it, that I really didn't have the passion for it. Oh, I said, well, maybe you'll get that feeling. And I wasn't getting it. And so I said, well, if this isn't something that you feel like you're passionate about, you probably shouldn't be doing it. I closed the business down and I swore to myself I'd never do it again. And here I am.

Manya Chylinski: 3:27

And here you are.

Janice Brathwaite: 3:29

Here I am doing it again. Hit home with me, because it really is true. You have to be passionate about what you do to do it.

Manya Chylinski: 3:37

Yes, especially as an entrepreneur, if you don't have that passion, it's not going to be as successful as you want it to be. Exactly, very true, absolutely Well. Thank you for sharing that and thank you for doing what you do. It is important work, and we're going to be talking a little bit about that today. We're going to be talking about compassion in leadership, which is something that I know that you and I both care a lot about helping change the world in that way, and I guess you know what do you think leaders most misunderstand about what compassion and leadership actually means.

Janice Brathwaite: 4:19

I think when they hear compassion, they somehow equate it with being weak, that for some reason I'm going to be looked at as somebody who's kind of wishy-washy, if you can put it that way, because they don't really understand what compassion is. I took a course through the Compassion Institute, which is a really great organization for people that want to get more information about being compassionate. I never really understood there was a difference between empathy and compassion. Empathy is putting yourself in someone's shoes and compassion is wanting to do something to make it better for that person Not just feeling what they feel, but actually doing something proactive.

Janice Brathwaite: 5:05

And I think the other thing is, a lot of times leaders don't know what to do. They're not really trained in emotional intelligence. They're mostly trained in strategy and operations. When they go to take a course, a leadership development course, it's usually all about you know how we can get more money and be more successful in the business, but they don't really talk about how these leaders are going to interact with their staff. What is that going to look like? You know doing case studies and rather than just talking theory. When I first became a leader, I had no idea what I was doing. You know somebody said, ok, you idea what I was doing. Somebody said okay, you're doing a good job, now you?

Manya Chylinski: 5:42

can be a supervisor Right and good luck to you.

Janice Brathwaite: 5:46

Exactly. And what I found was when I started doing it, I was making all these terrible mistakes and I said at one point Janice, you're either going to learn how to do this or you're going to get out of it, because you can't keep doing this. So I went to my organization and I said I'd like to take some courses in leadership, and I have to say it was the best thing that I ever did. I did a lot of reading, but I also had an opportunity to go and sit with other supervised managers, leaders in groups and talk about the challenges that it is to be a leader or lead people getting the training.

Manya Chylinski: 6:28

I feel as if new managers get training on the tasks they need to accomplish and the business processes that they need to know how to do, and less training on how to deal with people, and this compassion piece is a part of that kind of training.

Janice Brathwaite: 7:01

Yes, and I think the other thing is I'm really an advocate for coaching. I feel like a lot of times coaching, mentoring, whatever you want to, however you want to phrase it is really important for young leaders and young people. Leaders I always say that you know, I've seen this actually play itself out A long time ago. I knew the CEO and they came into this company and I said to them to myself you know, they really need some guidance. They really don't know how to do these things and I think having it's well worth the expenditure that companies have. When you're promoting someone, give them a coach for six months to a year. And when I talk about a coach, I talk about somebody walking side by side with you, somebody you debrief with after a meeting, talk about how well you answered that question or how well you interacted with that person. So I think the other thing is, you know, looking at assigning, like I say, it doesn't have to be a coach, it could be a mentor to new people coming into the management. Supervisor leadership role yes.

Manya Chylinski: 8:10

Do you think it's a lack of awareness in terms of the importance of this kind?

Janice Brathwaite: 8:16

if you can't do that, whatever change you're going to make or what you're suggesting they do or their organization do, is not going to be successful.

Janice Brathwaite: 8:41

I found that out working in organizational culture. I stopped with the CEO and I work with the senior leadership team and I work with other people in the organization. But I talk to that person first because I want them to not only know what I do, I want to know what their challenges are, what their concerns are, so that as I continue to talk to people in the organization I can kind of see if there's a synergy between what they're saying is a problem and other people are saying is a problem.

Manya Chylinski: 9:10

Right. I think from the leadership position is a very different picture of what's going on in an organization than the frontline workers. And I recently had a conversation with someone where we talked about the difference in what a leader and in this case we were talking executive leadership person, the difference in what that person thinks they're saying and what the employees hear, and that disconnect especially can be problematic when you're thinking about the softer skills like empathy and compassion. The example he gave was someone saying something that was perhaps perfectly appropriate to say to a friend or a family member, but came off as very wealthy and privileged to a worker who wasn't able to take a vacation, didn't even make enough money to take a vacation. So that is a fascinating piece to me, that difference between what leadership thinks is going on and what employees think is going on.

Janice Brathwaite: 10:17

There's a big discrepancy between different levels in the organization. That's what I find At the top. Usually at the top I hear things like everything's great, we're moving forward, we're doing really well, the organization's going well. And then as I start to slowly make my way to the next level, I hear a little bit of discontent, but not too bad. But by the time I get to the managers and the supervisors and the front line, it's a whole different story. It's like you're in a whole different environment or a whole different company than you thought you were, because you're hearing this wonderful story up here, but you're hearing something totally different.

Janice Brathwaite: 10:51

And I think the biggest challenge for most people in general is communication. You could ever over-communicate and I was also thinking about that thing you said about taking something and saying it, thinking it's benign, and really you've got to know your audience. You know like it's like anything else. If you're going to speak in front of a group of people, you want to know who those people pretty much who. They are, not the name, but you want to know what they're doing as far as work or whatever. But you can't. This is such an important subject and such an important thing that organizations like you know, I was doing some research and I found out that you know you can use things like retention and recruitment and looking at feedback from the staff and pulse surveys and things like that to keep your finger on this, because I don't think you can just do it and walk away. It has to be an ongoing thing. It has to be an ongoing thing.

Manya Chylinski: 11:51

Absolutely. I agree with you and I think there's a desire as there are for us humans in so many ways, for that one fix, that one pill that's going to help me lose weight, or that one thing that I do one time and that means the rest of this is going to be the way that I want it. It is an ongoing process and if we're thinking about this and we're thinking about compassion and mental wellness, what can leaders do to embed that into the culture and have it not be a one-off training?

Janice Brathwaite: 12:33

One of the things that came to mind, something I used to do I worked for in banking at one point in time and I had 70 people in the department and I used to do I don't even know if I knew the name at the time, but I did management by walking around and one of the things I would encourage leaders to do is get up off of that soft desk chair and get out and talk to your people, if you really want to know what's going on. And I'll tell you a story. When I did this, as I was doing it over time, someone told me that they had a drug problem. I would have never known that and then, so that we could get them the right treatment and the right opportunities for treatment. It's amazing, and it's not just going in and saying, hey, how's the job going, it's talking about their family. You see a picture of their family up on a. You know something and say, oh, is that your daughter? Oh, you know. And then you start that kind of conversation. They get to know you, you get to know them and they get to know you, you get to know them, and I think it's powerful, powerful and leaders won't do it. I won't say they won't do it.

Janice Brathwaite: 13:37

I think I wrote a newsletter about leadership wellness and leaders feel like they're stuck in this place, that they have to be in all day long and they can't really get up and do anything else. The phone's ringing the guy in the newsletter that I wrote about. He said that he wishes he had closed his door more often and just had some time to himself to kind of regroup, because you always feel like you're on the line every minute for decision making and all the rest of that, and so-and-so wants this and so-and-so wants that. I think that I really encourage leaders to get out there. Get out there and find out what's going on and do it in a way that's nonjudgmental.

Janice Brathwaite: 14:21

But I think you also have to set the psychological safety piece of this too. Absolutely you have to let them know that you know I'm not here to you know I'm here because I just want to get to know you and tell me how things are going, tell me how you're doing, how do you like the job, blah, blah, blah. But you have to have that environment where people feel like they can speak up, and there's a lack of a speak up culture in the work world today there were so many people out there with great ideas changing organizational changing ideas and they're not allowed, they feel like can't say it because it's going to be looked at and put down or you know you don't really like working here. You're talking about the organization when in fact you're just trying to make it better for everybody.

Manya Chylinski: 15:06

Yes, you've said a couple of things I want to follow up on. The one is talking about management by walking around, which I think is so valuable for the reasons that you enumerated. How do we do that kind of management, make those kind of connections, when we're thinking about a hybrid environment or a remote environment? What are the challenges leaders face in those kinds of environments to building those relationships that are so important?

Janice Brathwaite: 15:40

Well, one of the things that always bothered me in the virtual world and hybrid world was when I was supposed to have a meeting with my boss and they would cancel it. And if you do that enough times, you send a message that you really don't matter. Everybody else matters. So I think being very intentional about if you're going to meet with an employee they understand the reason for the meeting but that you make that meeting unless something terrible happens and you can't do it. And I think you have to be more cognizant of that. And in a virtual world, people are sitting back and they're looking at you and they're making decisions about everything you say and every move you make. So I think you have to be cognizant of that too as well, watching what you say and also watching how you interact with them also watching how you interact with them.

Manya Chylinski: 16:31

Another piece that I wanted to dig into is you know, we talk about leadership and that's kind of a general term. We're talking about the executive team, we're talking about managers and we put a lot of expectations on individuals as they get higher up in the organization. So it's easy enough to sit on the outside and say leaders need to be more compassionate. And then a particular leader may feel I don't have time to think about X because I've got shareholders' expectations and I've got these other productivity requirements I have to focus on, and it probably feels to some leaders like we're just adding one more thing onto their list of things to do.

Janice Brathwaite: 17:19

I think they have to really understand what's in it for them, this pressure that they're feeling now. If they maybe did some of these things and were more compassionate with their staff, maybe they wouldn't be so burdensome. Maybe you're carrying all the burden and you really don't need to do that. So people want to know well, how is this going to change me? You take a course, you know what am I going to learn? How is this going to affect me? And I think it's the same thing with leaders. You have to really. I mean that's why, when I do like organizational culture assessment stuff, I actually have a feedback session with the top leader in the organization to get them to, so that they're not so shocked by what they might see later on and they can kind of talk about yeah, you know, I see that or no? I don't think that's true or no. I don't think that's true. But I think you have to really somehow get them to understand that their work is more burdensome than it needs to be, because they are trying to be all things to all people and they can't do that.

Janice Brathwaite: 18:23

As far as work is concerned, yes, I've seen more people going out on medical leave, at least in the past year or so than I've ever seen in my career yeah, people taking time off because they just were burnt out, they couldn't do it anymore and they would go home for three months and then come back and walk back into exactly the same place they were in before. So there's a physical component to this too. As far as leaders or staff and how they, I think suffering is too strong a word, but suffering in certain ways and not being able to really express, address whatever needs to be addressed, and that's what usually pushes them out on medical leave. At least that's what I found. I mean, some of it is other things, but a lot of it's emotional.

Manya Chylinski: 19:16

Absolutely, and we know the connection between mind and body and the stress that you're under leads to all sorts of medical conditions and mental health conditions. You mentioned earlier psychological safety, which is a term that might be new to some people. I think we perhaps intuitively know what it means. But in terms of an organizational setting, what does that mean and how can that be fostered within an organization?

Janice Brathwaite: 19:50

So psychological safety is, I hear, as I believe is about trust, building trust and which allows people to say and do what they need to get done. So, for instance, I remember not that many years ago that I was having a conversation with a senior leader about a decision that had been made and the person turned to me and said you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Really, put me down, you need to sit in your humility. Those were the exact words. Yeah, I remember them so clearly because it was like what? And I said to myself well, there's no psychological safety here, because if I got this senior leader actually CEO saying this to me, then I'm just going to keep my mouth shut because obviously I'm going to get in trouble, right?

Janice Brathwaite: 20:47

Somebody told me I'm a disruptor and I think I've always been a disruptor. I don't like the status quo and I'll question when I think something's not quite right. You don't have, you're not built that base of trust. And if that leader had said to me well, you know, janice, I hear I see some points, some of your points why don't we continue this discussion and see maybe there's another way to approach this? We've been a whole different ballgame.

Manya Chylinski: 21:14

Right, you wouldn't even remember that conversation, probably.

Janice Brathwaite: 21:18

No, and I think it goes back to leaders don't know what to do. It's a lot of times they don't know how to read and they just fumbled around in the dark most of the time.

Manya Chylinski: 21:32

Yes, I think in some ways, most of us are just fumbling around in the dark most of the time, and we know we're fumbling, but we somehow expect other people to have it all together.

Janice Brathwaite: 21:44

Yeah, that's true, you have to give. That's why I wrote the thing about wellbeing, because you have to give along with responsibility. You have to give leaders some grace and understanding that they're human beings. That's what I wanted people to read into this. These are human beings you're talking about. Yes, they're not robots, they're not. They have feelings, they have problems, they have family, they have kids, you know all of those kinds of things. And the pressure of being all things to all people is really really a lot, and that's what kind of makes the leader kind of crumble really when they feel like I have to be all things to all people.

Manya Chylinski: 22:23

Yes, that's an impossible position to be in for anyone. And what metrics or other indicators could organizations use to measure whether they really are compassionate and they're really building a culture of wellness?

Janice Brathwaite: 22:42

Well, I actually got to do some research on it because that was a really good question and I had not thought about metrics around compassion, but one of the things they talked about is look at absenteeism. If the absentee rate is dropping, that could be an indication that whatever the compassionate things that you're doing are working. Also, retention Look at your turnover numbers. If your turnover numbers are starting to decrease, there's another clue that maybe there's something different about this thing that we're doing right now. So we need to keep it up. Those are a couple of things that are available. I mean, you can certainly do pulse surveys and you can do psychological index I think there's one on a psychological safety index, but to see, and then you could compare. Well, this is where we were then. No, no, no, we're like here we're doing something right, right, exactly we were then.

Manya Chylinski: 23:42

Now we're like here, we're doing something, right, right, exactly. As we're getting close to wrapping up, I'm curious your thoughts about our current political and social climate and how that's influencing leadership styles in organizations, and are we at risk of losing the compassionate leaders that we do have?

Janice Brathwaite: 24:00

Well, I always said I'll go back to the time, covid, when great resignation happened close to the, during COVID. I think that COVID was a blessing and a curse. If you were paying attention, the curse, obviously we know what that meant was. But the blessing was that we gave people a time to think about what they wanted in life, what kind of environment they wanted to work in and all of the things that they felt like in their life going forward. They wanted to see happen. And then they asked themselves is where I am right now, like that? And if they said no, then they said, well, I'm going to move on. Move on and do to some other place.

Janice Brathwaite: 24:46

Today you have like the quiet quitting, you have the great retraining, you have all kinds of things going on, but I think that one of the things oh, the other thing is coming along is the five generations in the workplace, and there's one on the horizon, another one coming in. That is something that has to be dealt with. I'm going to be talking and doing a keynote speech and I am going to talk about ERGs employee resource groups around ageism, Because I think that the people that suffer the most in this particular case are the new employees and the older employees, the people in the middle, they're okay, pretty okay. So I mean there's lots of things really need to be looked at and, again, doing good training that's impactful for your leaders, including the compassion piece of it, but the emotional intelligence piece of it too. I've had a little emotional intelligence training and I've been surprised that I've done it with doctors. I've been very surprised at times that they didn't really they didn't touch that medical school.

Manya Chylinski: 25:54

We don't do a lot of that training anywhere in our education system in general, that training anywhere in our education system in general. We rely on individual families to have taught this and we don't all know how to do this stuff, so it's disappointing, but it's not surprising to see some of the challenges with emotional intelligence when we're looking at folks in leadership positions. Janice, we are at the end of our time. Thank you so much for being here. Please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, what you do and how they can reach you.

Janice Brathwaite: 26:32

Okay, well, I have a company, an organization, called Workplace Transformations, and it's really about transforming workplaces, which is exactly what it says, using things like organizational culture and value-driven hiring and things like that to kind of make a turn. I got involved in this because I was doing it at Play's last place that I worked for a few organizations. I really loved it and I see such value in it that I'm always preaching about it because I think it's important. But we have a website, wptransformations. com. You can ping me on my LinkedIn. If you're on LinkedIn, I'm on there at least 10 times a day. Yeah, and I hope that people will take advantage of the great things that we have to offer. Yeah, and I hope that people will take advantage of the great things that we have to offer.

Manya Chylinski: 27:22

Wonderful, and I will put links to those in the show notes to make it easier for folks to get to you and Janice. Thank you again. This was such a wonderful conversation, Thank you. Thank you for listening. I'm Manya Chylinski. I help organizations analyze their culture, focusing on building environments where well-being and resilience can thrive. Through this process, we identify areas for growth, develop strategies and create the necessary changes to build healthier, more supportive organizations. If you're ready to make a change, I'd love to connect. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast on Apple podcasts or your listening platform of choice. It really helps others find us. And if you want to continue the conversation, connect with me on LinkedIn or visit my website, www. manyachylinski. com. Thank you for being part of this journey with me.