Notes on Resilience
Conversations about trauma, resilience, and compassion.
How do we genuinely support individuals who have experienced trauma and build inclusive and safe environments? Trauma significantly affects the mental and physical health of those who experience it, and personal resiliency is only part of the solution. The rest lies in addressing organizational, systemic, and social determinants of health and wellness, and making the effort to genuinely understand the impact of trauma.
Here, we ask and answer the tough questions about how wellness is framed in an organizational context, what supports are available and why, what the barriers are to supporting trauma survivors, and what best practices contribute to mental wellness. These conversations provide a framework to identify areas for change and actionable steps to reshape organizations to be truly trauma sensitive.
Notes on Resilience
110: Tackling Workplace Bullying, with Deitra Payne
Workplace bullying is a pervasive challenge that impacts employee health and morale.
Join us for a conversation with Deitra Payne, who is on a mission to eradicate workplace bullying. We discuss the necessity for compassionate leadership, the definition and implications of bullying, and offer practical advice for addressing these issues within organizations.
Bullying and compassion are incompatible, and Deitra urges organizations to adopt zero-tolerance policies that safeguard employees' well-being. We talk about the psychological and physical toll of bullying, demystify it as more than just a personality clash, and offer actionable strategies to combat it, from reporting to human resources to documenting incidents meticulously.
Deitra discusses the damage that unchecked bullying inflicts and how that puts organizations at risk of losing valuable talent if they ignore the issues. We also explore the impact of workplace bullying on company culture and trust.
Dr. Deitra C. Payne is an speaker, author, entrepreneur, coach and founder of Fabulous Coaching, Training, and Productions LLC, a coaching and training business dedicated to empowering clients to transform their lives and achieve their dreams. Her mission is to help individuals and organizations unlock their full potential through personalized coaching and transformative training programs.
To learn more about Dr. Payne, visit her website at www.fabulousctp.com or email her at info@fabulousctp.com.
Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.
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Producer / Editor: Neel Panji
Invite Manya to inspire and empower your teams and position your organization as a forward-thinking leader in well-being, resilience, and trauma sensitivity.
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There should be a zero tolerance when it comes to workplace bullying, and not just say a zero tolerance when we're talking about that policy, but adhering to it. So if someone is bullying, you say we do not tolerate this, so we're going to have to terminate you. I'm just so passionate about it because of the fact that it is health harming. So what you're doing is you're harming employees' health when it comes to bullying.
Manya Chylinski:Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, manya Chylinski. My guest today is Deitra Payne. She is a speaker, author, presenter and the founder of fabulous coaching, training and productions where she empowers clients to transform their lives and achieve their dreams. We talked about compassion and leadership through the lens of bullying in the workplace. What is it, how does it feel and what can organizations? What is it, how does it feel and what can organizations do prevent it? This is a really great episode. Hello, deitra. I'm so excited that you and I are finally doing this episode.
Deitra Payne:So am I. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for asking me to join you on your podcast. This is wonderful.
Manya Chylinski:Absolutely Now, before we dive into the topic, what is one thing that you have done that you never thought you would do?
Deitra Payne:When I think about that question. It is so difficult for me and I'll tell you why, for me I always plan, I put into place goals that I wish to achieve, and so when you ask what is this something that I may be surprised about that I'm doing, I would say that there's nothing that I'm really surprised about because of the fact that I say here are some things that I wish to accomplish and I set goals for myself so that I can accomplish them. So it's not anything that, for me, that is unexpected. I would probably say that maybe I find myself in the position of maybe starting my business sooner than expected.
Deitra Payne:I've always wanted to start a business, but when my youngest sister passed away unexpectedly, it really hit home to me that tomorrow is not promised. So I began thinking that I need to get my business started. So that was the motivating factor of me really getting my business started now. Because I'm thinking to myself we know that tomorrow is not promised, so I may not necessarily have the opportunity to start my business. So I think, maybe the fact that I've already started the business, even though I've always had plans to get my business started, because of my passion for helping others.
Manya Chylinski:Right, that's fabulous. And you started it maybe a little sooner than you were expecting, but that is so wonderful. So thank you for sharing that. And you know, the theme for the podcast this year is compassionate leadership, and we are going to be talking about a very particular aspect of what goes on in an organization and we are going to be talking about workplace bullying. So, just to get us started, can you have a compassionate workplace and compassionate leaders and still have bullying in the workplace?
Deitra Payne:No, you cannot, Because if bullying is taking place in the workplace, then your employees are going to see that there is not compassionate leadership, because they're allowing it. This is their perspective. If it's happening, then leadership is allowing it to happen. We don't have systems in place to say that we need compassionate leadership and this is not happening. So it's not throughout the organization in which we see compassion, because we're seeing workplace bullying. So, no, you cannot have compassionate leadership and have workplace bullying going on in that organization.
Manya Chylinski:Okay, well, what is the definition of workplace bullying? I think we all might have an idea, but I'd like to know what you think.
Deitra Payne:Yeah, as I've read through a lot of different definitions of workplace bullying. Workplace bullying is essentially health-harming behavior. In organizations, it's one or more employees abusing other employees in that organization. So, whether the abuse is intimidation, whether it's manipulation because it takes all forms bullying, so it can be aggressive, it can be mental abuse, it can be physical abuse, so there's different types of abuse that can transpire when we're talking about workplace bullying. So it's that health harming behavior.
Manya Chylinski:As you are talking about it, I think back to an experience that I had in a workplace and realized there were some bullies and there was some bullying of me and others going on, and I always had this low level frustration that even when I reported it, the response was essentially well, that's just what that person is like, so it dismissed that I was having a difficult time.
Deitra Payne:Yes, and that's where you can see, when you ask that first question, that if someone is telling you that, oh, this is the way in which this person is, we see that there is not compassion, there is not empathy for the employees in that organization. So we don't see that compassionate leadership in the organization. If an employee is reporting bullying and is being dismissed Because anytime someone reports bullying, the response should never be oh, that's just the way that person is Because what you're doing is creating an environment that's uncomfortable for that employee to go into every single day. That's why, when we're talking about defining workplace bullying, we're saying that it's health harming. It's harming to one's health, because if you have to go into an organization every single day and be treated in that manner, then you would not want to come into that organization.
Manya Chylinski:Yes, I sat next to this person every day and at the time I didn't have the understanding of how to deal with that. So, as an employee, if you're experiencing something like that, if you are feeling bullied, what are the things that we should do as employees, to report it, to get it to stop, to protect ourselves?
Deitra Payne:That's a great, great question and I like the fact that you said you did not have the tools to really address what was happening to you, because the first thing that I would say is that, although you may not have the tools, you should be able to talk to someone and they should be addressing it right Someone within that organization. So one of the things because sometimes someone may be bullying another person and they may not necessarily know that it's considered bullying. So you may want to, if you feel comfortable addressing that person who is bullying you and let them know that your behavior is making me feel uncomfortable and I'm going to ask you politely if you can stop that behavior towards me because I just feel uncomfortable. Now, that's only if that employee feels comfortable addressing that bully. Right, because not everyone's going to feel comfortable addressing the bully and that's perfectly fine, because the only reason I mentioned that is because that bully may not know that he or she is bullying. They may not know that it's considered bullying is considered bullying. But also, you want to be able to go to human resources and report that behavior and have them look into it.
Deitra Payne:That is so important because organizations should have something in place, a policy that address workplace bullying or civility in the workplace and they should be looking into it when an employee reports it. So you should be able to feel comfortable going to human resources and letting them know what's happening to you and have them look into it. Also, you wanna keep notes right, particularly if you've gone to human resources. If they haven't done anything, you can say I gone to human resources. If they haven't done anything, you can say I went to human resources on this date to report the bullying that I was experiencing. So make sure you keep accurate notes every time you're being bullied, what time that bully went to you and whatever that bully did whether it was abusive conduct, whatever it is. You want to make sure that you keep accurate records of what's going on and what's happening to you. The date, the time, yes.
Manya Chylinski:You mentioned the workplace having a policy and someone being able to go to HR and report it and having there be a process, and, as you were saying that, I realized that is having that policy and having that process is a key piece of having a workplace that is empathetic and compassionate, because without it you are leaving it up to the individual employee to manage a problem that they might not be equipped to and in a group environment, I'm not sure they should have to be the one to manage it.
Deitra Payne:Absolutely. The employee should not have to be the one to manage it. Now, when we're talking about having a policy, you want to make sure that you're adhering to that policy. It's not just something that you have in the records that we're we're talking about workplace bullying, because this is something that I'm passionate about. This is something that I've researched. I personally feel there should be a zero tolerance when it comes to workplace bullying, and not just say a zero tolerance when we're talking about that policy, but adhering to it. So if someone is bullying, you say we do not tolerate this, so we're going to have to terminate you. I'm just so passionate about it because of the fact that it is health harming. So what you're doing is you're harming employees' health when it comes to bullying. So that's why I'm so passionate about it being a zero tolerance policy.
Manya Chylinski:I agree Zero tolerance. That is something I appreciate. That feels like that could be really difficult for some employers, because what if the person who's a bully is also a really high performer? And I say that because I had an experience in a workplace where somebody stood two inches from my face screaming at me and spitting on me and I was told nothing was going to happen to him, because he's very important to the organization.
Deitra Payne:And that's usually what will happen, unfortunately. But on the other side of that, if you're not addressing workplace bullying, then some of your other high performers may leave that organization. Because what happens with workplace bullying? It not only harms that person who is being bullied, but it also harms those around you in that organization because they feel uncomfortable with what's going on in the organization and they may leave. So you're talking about other high performers potentially leaving that organization because they're feeling uncomfortable with the fact that bullying is not being addressed. So when bullying is not being addressed, employees feel like they're not valued in that organization.
Manya Chylinski:They feel like they're not valued and you don't feel safe. And just speaking from my own experience, then I don't have as much trust for the organization. I don't trust that they're going to have my back.
Deitra Payne:Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. I agree with that 100%. Yeah, there is that lack of trust because it's not being addressed.
Manya Chylinski:I kind of want to go back to this zero tolerance policy because I think there's a lot there that holds someone accountable for their behavior and I just feel like are there employers who actually do that? It feels like it could be so fraught. I hear what you're saying and I agree. If you don't get rid of that person, then you're giving a message to everybody else. I don't know. It just feels even someone who's been bullied and really wish they had gotten rid of the person, it still feels like such a harsh penalty and such a fine line for the employer to have to walk, because then couldn't that person say you've gotten rid of me unfairly.
Deitra Payne:Well, why would it be unfairly? If you know what the policy is going into that organization, how can it be unfair?
Manya Chylinski:Yes, I hear what you're saying. If you agree to the policy and there is a zero tolerance policy and you know it, I guess a lot of workplaces just don't have that hard a line when it comes to bullying. I guess that's where I'm. The reality is that not very many people hold that line.
Deitra Payne:Yeah, and I agree with you. I don't think that there are a lot of organizations that have a zero tolerance workplace bullying policy, but also there's not a lot of organizations that have a workplace bullying policy.
Manya Chylinski:Yeah.
Deitra Payne:Yes, All right, so we need to take a few steps back here. Yeah, but that's just my perspective. I mean, there's all different ways in which you can integrate some type of workplace bullying policy, because you can have three strikes when it comes to workplace bullying if an organization does not want to be that harsh. So I mean I think that's probably more of an appropriate type of policy for most employees. You know, once you've been warned two times, then the third time you're out. So given that employee a lot of notice about his or her behavior, and if you continue it, then you know what's going to happen. So I think that's probably and probably what you're saying you feel more comfortable with is probably a more appropriate type of policy to have and in which employees will feel comfortable with.
Manya Chylinski:Because I'm thinking back to what we said earlier is what if someone says something and they don't necessarily think of it as bullying and they don't run around the world as a bully, but just do say something that's inappropriate and is bullying. So you wouldn't want to penalize somebody for a mistake versus someone who behaves as a bully.
Deitra Payne:I think that's where training comes in.
Manya Chylinski:I was just going to ask you about training what is most important to be, as we're training our leaders, to make sure that they're paying attention to this issue.
Deitra Payne:Well, that's where training comes in. You want to have training so that your leaders understand what constitutes workplace bullying, but also have training for your employees as well, for the same reason, because not everyone has a good understanding of what workplace bullying actually is. So someone may be bullying another person, another employee in that organization, and may not necessarily know that they're being bullied. Yeah, so that's why training is so important, because it will allow leaders as well as employees to understand what constitutes workplace bullying.
Manya Chylinski:I feel like when we promote people to become leaders on their teams, there often is training in the processes and the tasks that their staff has to be doing, what they need to be paying attention to and maybe less so in some organizations on the people side of it of how do you manage people, how do you have compassion as you're dealing with people? How do you recognize bullying? What do you do about it? So I wonder if sometimes you know there are very good intentions but managers just don't feel they have the tools.
Deitra Payne:I agree, because oftentimes that you will see that when we're talking about the way in which managers are being trained maybe in systems, maybe you know we're talking about technical skills, but not skills in the perspective of people and emotional intelligence, because the research says that the leaders who have emotional intelligence are those who are most effective as leaders. And when we're talking about emotional intelligence, we're talking about someone who has those interpersonal skills, someone who has empathy for someone else, someone who has an understanding of others and their emotions. So that's what we're talking about with emotional intelligence.
Manya Chylinski:You know, I think about workplace and I believe it's changing. But traditionally it's been this divide between personal life and your work life and your emotions and your supposed non-emotions that you have in the workplace. And I feel like I've had so many conversations recently about how important it is to have emotional intelligence, to have compassion, have that empathy, to treat others as humans, and I feel like we are moving in that direction where we're accepting that people can and should have emotions in the workplace.
Deitra Payne:I do agree with that, that because we're human beings and sometimes we cannot always cut off our emotions when we walk into the workplace. So, as human beings, that should be expected. But you mentioned, you know, like the compassion for others. But also we're talking about being respectful of others. We walk into the workplace with different ideas, different religions, different ethnicities, like all of these different types of diversities.
Manya Chylinski:So we're talking about being respectful to one another as well, yes, that's an important foundation for having a workplace where we can all work together and do the thing that we're all together to do make the product, perform the service, sell the item. As you think about the world of work and bullying and all of these topics that we've been talking about, what is giving you hope these days?
Deitra Payne:For me, I think, what's giving me hope people as having the ability to be compassionate, to be understanding, to be respectful, to move into the workplace with civility. So I look at just being a human being, that this is who we can be, but maybe some people may need more training and understanding in how to do this. One of the things that I always say is that we bring into the workplace our experiences, and every single person has a different experience. May not be acceptable to everyone, and that's where training comes in. It's so important for employees to have an understanding of these expectations and not just say, okay, here are the policies and we expect you to abide by these policies, but provide training, and oftentimes training is the department that gets the biggest cut.
Manya Chylinski:It's such a conundrum. We know this is important On an individual level. We know this is important, but on an organizational level sometimes there's just not that recognition of how important it really is and that is to the detriment of the organization ultimately.
Deitra Payne:Absolutely. This is to the detriment of the organization. Example bullying of employees and, as we mentioned earlier, you may have some of these high performing employees leaving. That's going to have an impact on your organization's bottom line, right? So I wonder oftentimes how many organizations are looking at the impact to their bottom line when you have employees leaving or when you have employees calling out sick when they're really not sick but they feel uncomfortable going into that organization because they're being bullied?
Manya Chylinski:Yes, I believe some organizations have a hard time connecting those, the behavior, to those metrics, and because it's not always a clear cut, it's not always clear cut. So, yeah, it's such an interesting topic and you do such fabulous work in this area. Deidre, we're getting to the end of our time. Can you tell our listeners more about yourself and the work that you do, please?
Deitra Payne:Oh, absolutely so. I've been an educator for more than 14 years. I was teaching human resource management at the college and university level. So I decided to start my entrepreneurial journey and I started fabulous coaching, training and productions where I actually do coaching and training. My tagline is empower, transform, achieve and that's exactly what I do. I empower my clients to transform themselves, to achieve their dreams. So I work a lot with women, professional women with self-confidence, with being successful in the workplace, with self-development. But on the other side of my business, I do training for corporate clients in the area of workplace bullying, emotional intelligence, diversity and conflict management.
Manya Chylinski:Excellent, and how can our listeners reach you if they want to learn more?
Deitra Payne:Sure, my website is wwwfabulousctpcom, so fabulousctpcom, and you can also send an email to me if you wish at info at fabulousctpcom. I'm also out there on social media Facebook and LinkedIn. Excellent, I'm going to put links to media Facebook and LinkedIn Excellent.
Manya Chylinski:I'm going to put links to those in the show notes to make it easier for folks to find you and Deitra. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your perspective on this topic and this was a wonderful conversation.
Deitra Payne:All right, I appreciate it.
Manya Chylinski:Thank you so much. Thank you for listening. I'm Manya Chylinski. I help organizations analyze their culture, focusing on building environments where wellbeing and resilience can thrive. Through this process, we identify areas for growth, develop strategies and create the necessary changes to build healthier, more supportive organizations. If you're ready to make a change, I'd love to connect. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your listening platform of choice. It really helps others find us. And if you want to continue the conversation, connect with me on LinkedIn or visit my website, www. manyachylinski. com. Thank you for being part of this journey with me.
