113: The Emotional Source Code of Organizations: Finding the Why with Dov Baron

Are you curious about how emotional drivers shape workplace culture and foster connection? 

Join us in this thought-provoking episode as we engage with Dov Baron to explore the concept of emotional source code and its significant impact on organizational dynamics. We delve into the importance of compassion and understanding and how we approach each other with curiosity rather than preconceived notions, we pave the way for richer interactions and a more harmonious work environment. 

Dov highlights the rising need for emotional intelligence in leadership, particularly in light of the increasing organizational pressure to cultivate a sense of community. He also addresses the emotional hunger many are currently facing, made more apparent by the pandemic--with work now often deemed the primary community, leaders must navigate the complexities of fostering belonging and support. 

This episode provides insights and practical strategies for reframing our approach to leadership.

Dov Baron is a speaker, facilitator, podcast host, author, and founder of Dov Baron International. He is an expert on creating cultures of belonging. He makes a difference by helping leaders tap into their emotional source code--which is what gives individuals their meaning, drives their actions, and determines results.

You can learn more about him in his website www.dovbaron.com, listen to his podcast, The Dov Baron Show wherever you get your podcasts, connect with him on LinkedIn, or email him at dov@dovbaron.com.

Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
• 11:43 Breaching Bias and Finding Compassion
• 26:28 The Emotional Source Code Explained
• 44:03 The Importance of Purpose in Organizations
• 56:13 Navigating Current Political Divides at Work
• 1:06:43 Conclusion and Call to Action

Transcript

Dov Baron: 1:15

We have to get to your emotional source code so we can find the why within your, why, the purpose and meaning of your organization, because that's what bonds left and right, that's what pulls the division together.

Manya Chylinski: 1:33

Host Manya Chilinski. My guest today is Dov Baron. He's a speaker, facilitator, podcast host, author and all-around interesting guy. We talked about creating cultures of belonging, of compassion and the emotional source code. You're going to really enjoy this episode, hi Dov. Thank you so much for being here. I'm excited to have you as a guest.

Dov Baron: 1:59

Thank you, mania, I'm looking forward to it very much. I really enjoyed our previous conversation in Vegas, and now we get to go deeper.

Manya Chylinski: 2:13

Yes, because our conversation in Vegas has to stay in Vegas as the ad campaign goes. Before we dive into the content, I ask everybody this year what is one thing that you've done that you never thought you would do in?

Dov Baron: 2:28

any realm. I would say that the thing that I've done, that I never thought I would do. I mean, it could be as simple as eating Brussels sprouts, which were my worst food ever. Like even the thought of them made me nauseated. My wife makes Brussels sprouts that I just love. They're delicious, so that's one. And for me it's really interesting because part of my work is about breaching the bias that we all have, biases that we bring to things, and there's something that can help us to breach the bias. So my wife helped me to breach the bias about Brussels sprouts and it becomes a wonderful metaphor for life, right? It's like what are you looking at that you've got complete disdain for that. If you met someone else who would bring you a different way of looking at it, you would see it differently. So I think Brussels sprouts is a great example.

Manya Chylinski: 3:17

You know what? I love that example because I also used to feel that way about Brussels sprouts and don't even get them anywhere, don't even have them in the room if I am dining. And now I've made them, I order them at restaurants. I enjoy them very much and I appreciate you talking about how we've all got things to overcome, so it doesn't have to be a big thing that you thought you would never do.

Dov Baron: 3:47

Well, as I said, I think it's a great metaphor for anything. There are things in your life that you think are really big, until you meet someone from the other side. Years ago, I spoke at the UN and I was invited to speak there with somebody I'd worked with who was a neo-Nazi, and he had been a neo-Nazi. And here we are speaking in the UN together about the fact that I had assisted him. And we were invited to speak because by birth I'm Jewish. What a dichotomy, right. And so obviously, how could? And the person who was interviewing us on stage said how could you possibly help somebody who was advocating for the annihilation of your race? And I said because I wasn't helping a neo-Nazi. And they go what do you mean? Wasn't he a neo-Nazi at the time? And I said, yes, but that's not who I was helping. And they said I don't understand.

Dov Baron: 4:40

I said when he joined that movement he was 15 years old. He was a highly intelligent, highly articulate, creative human being who needed an outlet and needed a community that supported him. He found it in the neo-nazi movement. He's obviously not there anymore, but he found it. And I said and I was that same kid at 15. I was highly intelligent, highly articulate, needed an outlet. We just found different places.

Dov Baron: 5:06

So on the surface of it is I hate brussels sprouts. In the context of it is I hate my mother's brussels sprouts, which are boiled to death and and are gray, like there's a context. So I I'm definitely not in favor of people who want to fight for the annihilation of the Jewish people Of course not. But the context of it is who is that person? What's driving them? And I think that that's a good clue for all of us in anything that we approach. If we're going to be more resilient in our lives, that's one of the ways, instead of going, oh it's wrong or it's right, it's left or it's right, it's good or it's bad. No, hold on a minute. What's underneath? What's the context?

Manya Chylinski: 5:44

Right. Thank you for sharing that story. And fundamentally, you're talking about compassion for other humans, absolutely, and we can find it very difficult to be compassionate when someone believes something so different than we do.

Dov Baron: 6:01

Well, because we're tribal Human beings are tribal we operate out of right, wrong, left, right, good, bad. That's not true. It's just what we do, it's the automatic, it's the knee jerk. But as an evolving human being, you get to choose whether to follow your knee jerk or whether to think deeper. And that thinking deeper is to look for context, and you can't have context with anything until you embrace my religion, which is curiosity. We have to become profoundly curious. What if this is not the end of the question, but the beginning of the question? Oh, you are a right-wing Trump supporter, okay. Or you are a left-wing wingnut Okay. Whatever it might be, you know, it's either side. What's underneath that? What's underneath that? What's underneath that? Oh look, we're the same. That's what compassion is.

Manya Chylinski: 6:59

Yes, it is. I love your focus on curiosity and I will let out a little bit of what we talked about in vegas, which is when we were talking. I wrote that down during our conversation and underlined it and put an exclamation point next to it. That is something that I also believe in, and so hearing you say it just was so inspiring to me. You know, I think a lot about compassion in an organizational setting. So we as individuals have our own behavior, we're responsible for, etc. How do we bring that to the organizations we're part of and perhaps a workplace? How do we translate that curiosity and that compassion that we all have at least a little bit of in our personal lives into an organizational setting?

Dov Baron: 7:52

I think that the simplicity of it is we've got to stop thinking about organizations as a collective. It is a collective, but we have to understand it's a collective of individuals and so if we're not willing to focus on the individuals that make up the collective, we're going to assign something to the collective. That's not true for the individual. A lot of people go oh, you know, everybody who's a mega person is a nut job. Well, that's not true. Are there some nut jobs? Sure, but there's some nut jobs in my supermarket. You know what I mean. There's nut jobs everywhere. So it's not true of the individuals. It might be true or appear to be true in the collective. We have to do is to apply compassion, we have to have curiosity, and here's what it's about, and this is what I want everybody to grasp for a moment and I work with leaders around the world and this is what I say to them when dealing with your company. I want you to understand one thing Put this at the front of your mind in every conversation. And they go what's that? You're solving a problem, it doesn't matter what it is.

Dov Baron: 9:00

Everybody you meet is in pain and it's trying to feel better. How can I help them feel better? So, first of all, you know they might even feel better. I got to know what they're in pain about and they may not know, but it's acting out in the fact that this person is a control freak who's micromanaging everybody who's underneath them. But that means they're in pain. How can I make them feel better, safer, part of this organization, so they don't need to micromanage in order to feel safe?

Dov Baron: 9:31

So it's that understanding the compassion starts with the curiosity about.

Dov Baron: 9:36

I wonder what this person's pain is and how are they trying to feel better. When you walk down the street and you see that guy on the alleyway who has got a needle in his arm, you might judge him. When you go out at night and you see that girl who's falling over drunk in a miniskirt, and you might judge her. But is she or he different than the person who is volunteering at the church seven days a week? Different than the person who is volunteering at the church seven days a week? No, they've just got different coping mechanisms and one of them might be more socially acceptable than the other, but everybody's trying to feel better and you might go. Oh, I applaud the person volunteering and I disapprove of the person who is doing drugs, but everybody's in pain and having compassion for that allows you, as a leader in your brand, to say how are we serving to assist people and alleviating their pain? It's not meeting this consumer need. What's the pain we're healing? That's profound and that's what brings compassion to an organization.

Manya Chylinski: 10:36

Yes, I so appreciate you mentioning that, the pain points. If you are in an organization and you're in the marketing function, it's all about what are our customers pain points. So you know what is the thing that we need to solve for them and we think about that on that level. What's your pain point? I'm thirsty. What's the solution to drink this particular brand of juice or cola? I don't feel like we've expanded that to think about humanity, to think about the other person, the person that we're working with. I like that approach of thinking of everybody as trying to ease their pain.

Dov Baron: 11:14

Yeah, I mean, the happiest person you meet is in pain. Yeah, and that's really difficult for people to grasp. It is Particularly in this smiley face, north American mentality bullshit which is oh, I'm great, everything's fine. F-i-n-e Upped up, insecure, neurotic and emotional that's the acronym for fine right. The truth of the matter is it's not about.

Dov Baron: 11:39

So let's be clear. I am not advocating for you going to work pissing, moaning and whining and being the victim. That is not the answer. No, it's about you are responsible for self-management. You are responsible for self-knowledge and self-developdevelopment and making yourself better, but understanding that you need the compassion to walk into everyone else's life, understanding that they may be holding a facade, that they feel they need to survive. They got to put on the smiley face and always be happy and always do all the nice things for everybody else, because that's the only way they can survive. It's not because they're horrible people, or even because they're fakes. It's because it was a coping mechanism learned inside of their emotional source code as human beings to survive. That's it. Once you get that, it's like okay, this person is not a vindictive asshole or this person is not trying to be a martyr. They're just trying to survive. And what is survival? Easing my pain Right.

Manya Chylinski: 12:41

You know you talk about. This is an individual thing that we're talking about, and you talked about the concept of the collective. And if we're thinking about workplaces or the organizations that we're part of, what is the disconnect that we don't want to think about or accept the humanity of the people who are making up the collective?

Dov Baron: 13:09

Oh, that's easy. People don't want to look in the mirror. If I see it in you, I got to look at me, yeah, yeah. If I just see it in you, without judgment, without making you wrong or bad, then I got to be willing to look at me. Here's my central philosophy of my work.

Dov Baron: 13:24

You don't live in the world, you live in the mirror. Everything's a reflection of you, everything's showing you a part of yourself, and through that you can look at Vladimir Putin and go he's an asshole, is he? Yeah, but is that asshole in me too? If I can judge it, I can see it all right, or I can say this person is this or this person is that. But you know, the beauty, the magnificence in the world as well, is a reflection of me. But we don't want to do it because we don't want to look inward, and and so that lack of compassion is nothing more than a fear. Comment again if I, I look at me. But if I look at me, I can also see the beauty, I can see the magnificence, I can see the deep greatness that I've disenfranchised, that I can bring forward in compassion, in curiosity, in boldness, in love. Nothing is one-sided Right.

Manya Chylinski: 14:18

There are people who do look at life that way, right, and they are compassionate and they can see, they can accept others for where they are. It feels, though, it's often a struggle, so that I believe there are a lot of people who aren't in that position. What aren't we getting right, I don't know, in leadership, development programs, in schooling, in the way we raise people, that it's still so hard for us to accept other people's humanity.

Dov Baron: 14:47

That's a great question. Thank you for asking it, because I think I need to give people a context that maybe they've not grasped. I know that I didn't for a long time because I've been working with leaders and organizations for 40 years. So the interesting thing about it is this If you're of a certain age, you can remember if not your own, you can remember your dad or even your granddad being part of a bowling club, or your mom being part of a bridge club or your granny being part of a bridge club, and there was all these kind of clubs and groups and communities that people were part of, and to some degree they have faded over time. And then COVID came and they got eliminated right. So now I don't have a community, so I'm emotionally hungry.

Dov Baron: 15:38

Human beings need community. This is not a debatable thing. This is this neuroscience on it. We need community, but now the only place I go is work. I mean even people who are very social.

Dov Baron: 15:51

Even though we can all officially go wherever we want to go and do whatever we want to do, people are not going out the way they went to go out before. They're not being as social, they're not being as socially active as they were. People are not going out the way they went to go out before. They're not being as social, they're not being as socially active as they were. They're not part of the communities. So now there is the.

Dov Baron: 16:07

We've forgotten that work is now the community, and that's a shit ton of pressure, by the way, for the organization, because the organization's like Jesus.

Dov Baron: 16:15

I just want to make a couple of quits, I want to make a couple of bucks, do okay and want to make some profit for my stakeholders, but the truth is that now there is a lot of pressure to be a community, that Gen Z and millennials want to go work, to work and be with their friends Like they want to go to work and be friendly, whereas in my generation it was like I'm going to go to work.

Dov Baron: 16:37

I don't like the person at work, but it's okay, I'm just doing my job because I want a paycheck so I can go home and spend time with my family and be in my communities, whether that's my church or my social clubs or whatever it might be. All of that has now been put on work. Now there's another place that gets put on and that's partnership, and this is why relationship is so bloody difficult is because now I don't expect you to be my lover, my best friend and my confidant and also my hired comedian who's going to make me feel better, right? So you've got these two places where there's so much bloody pressure. That is very difficult. That's the context that's missing around this subject.

Manya Chylinski: 17:20

Well, let me ask you the things that you're talking about. We're talking about the pandemic. We're talking about generational shift in the way people are looking at work. But I think we can argue that, just looking at workplaces, I think we can argue that there hasn't necessarily been a lot of compassion in that environment for a long time.

Dov Baron: 17:39

No, there's never been. That's my point. There's never been. But we had other places to go get it, so we weren't as desperate. Okay, I see what you're saying. Now we don't have those places. If you're a leader in an organization and you're not putting it into that environment, you're dead in the water, because people want community, so they'll go work somewhere else where they can have a community. You're absolutely right. It's never been there. It's been there less than it was, than it is today, but people had other resources.

Manya Chylinski: 18:08

They don't have those anymore. Right, that's a lot of pressure on leaders in a workplace.

Dov Baron: 18:13

It's a ton of pressure and it takes and this is why I keep explaining to people it doesn't take intelligence, it takes emotional intelligence and emotional maturity. And that's why, you know, when I I remember talking about this almost 20 years ago saying to my clients who were leading an organizations about how they need to develop their emotional intelligence and emotional maturity, and blah, blah, blah, and they're like I don't want to be my my workers therapist and I want to, don't want to be my my workers friends, and I'm like, well, get over it, sorry, get over it, cause you got to know that that's where it's going. And I was absolutely right and I didn't know about a pandemic and I wasn't trying to be right. It's just that I can see the evolution of humanity and what we're doing and as we get more and more isolated from others, wherever we land is where we're going to place the most demand. That's why, like I said, the primary relationship is under so much demand.

Dov Baron: 19:07

It's so difficult. It's like I'm supposed to be your best friend and your lover and your therapist and your cheerleader and I'm supposed to kick your ass Like hold on a minute. It's too much, I'm out. It's too much, dov'm out. It's too much Dov.

Manya Chylinski: 19:21

Let's switch gears a little bit from where we just were. I mean, we've been talking about our current work situation, the pandemic. What do you think about the current political climate? Without getting into too many details, it feels like we are very divided in a lot of ways and I fear that's going to be impacting our workplaces and our organizations and our ability to relate to each other, and I'm curious your thoughts.

Dov Baron: 19:53

Divisional thinking is going to impact the workplace, no doubt about that whatsoever, however. So the research is that 83% of people are not politically divided. 17% are very loud and very divided, and so what happens is the silent majority which is the rest of us who were saying, are like yeah, you know what? I don't agree with them, but it's fine. We've got some things in common and, as you know, I've written many political reports and such, and one of the things I talked about in there was, if you look and examine the people who were like, oh my God, you know, like, keep that man away from me. As in Donald Trump in 2015,. Some of those people voted for Trump in the 2024 election and some of the people who were he's the best thing since sliced bread and he's God's gift were like guy's a maniac. So people can shift their perspective, right, they can shift that, but what's the truth of it is that we have to, as leaders, we have to say what is the appeal? That's what's more important. What's the appeal? So I wrote a report on how one of the major groups that were disenfranchised by the left were men in the last election, and I'm not saying that that's what won the election towards Trump, but it certainly helped because he understood how to go after the bro Right, the bro vote, and he was helped by his son, barron, who is a Gen Z, and told him how to get to Gen Z. It was a smart political move. It was very good.

Dov Baron: 21:42

We're always like looking for our little conclave to support us as opposed to looking for what is underneath, and so when we have this division at work which is and again I was saying this to the leaders I work with after the election happened and I said here's what you're going to know on January 20th. You're going to know On January 20th you're going to open the doors to your business, just like you do every other day, and you're going to be more aware than you've ever been that there are people in there who are Trumpers and there are people in there who are not, and they're in your company and you can either fire all the nots or you can fire all the Trumpers, but you're still going to be minus 50% and with over a million not enough workers in the workforce today. That's why the unemployment numbers are so low. It's because there's not enough workers. It's not because there's great jobs. That's part of the illusion again. So you're going to be short of workers if you get rid of half that group.

Dov Baron: 22:39

So what you are going to have to do is find out their common ground. And again the leader's like oh my God, I've now got to be the bloody negotiator and I've got to be the therapist. Yep, you do, get over it, you do. So. You've got to find out what do we have in common? Now they go well. I don't think we've got anything going Well.

Dov Baron: 23:06

If got anything going well, if you've got an organization, you have an opportunity to find it. And they go well. How?

Dov Baron: 23:09

What is the meaning and purpose of your organization? If I know the meaning of your purpose in your organization and I'm left and you're right, or you're you're left and I'm right but the meaning and purpose of our organization and what it's doing for people is more important than my political view. I mean, I'm like, yeah, I want to make. I want to make this difference to the vets. I'm making it up right To vets, and whether I'm left or right, I really care about that. So, yeah, I can put my political views to the side because this matters more.

Dov Baron: 23:35

And so this is why, when I work with organizations. I'm saying we have to get to your emotional source code so we can find the why within your why, the purpose and meaning of your organization. Because that's what bonds left and right, that's what pulls the division together, that's what made America great and always has made America great is because the common was this American dream, and the division now is that the American dream is falling away. That was the common before. It didn't matter whether you were Polish or you were Irish, or you were Ukrainian or you were Russian, or you were Jewish or Catholic. It was this common central message. And that's what we have to do as organizations we have to pull a common meaning together that will allow people to come together.

Manya Chylinski: 24:21

Yes, absolutely. I appreciate that, thinking about the purpose and the meaning behind the organization, as, even if it's the only thing, the one thing that you have in common with somebody that you're working with, Well I mean.

Dov Baron: 24:36

So the thing about it is what we've done in. I've been brought in for some very high level negotiations between in the C-suite, where there's been a couple of people who were like, look like they could have caused a collapse of an organization, and it's been very iffy. And we've done the work and just got to what is the why within the why of the organization? What is the emotional source code of that organization? And then I do the same thing with each of the executives and we find the common overlap. Once we find the common overlap, it's like, oh, okay, now I get it.

Dov Baron: 25:11

So now it's not a difference in opinion, it's a difference in style. Yes, oh, you're a dove, you. You come at things very boldly, Whereas I'm not a Dov. I kind of like to meander and think about them for a couple of days and I get irritated with your boldness and your jump to it-ness and you get irritated with the fact that I say yes and go away and think about it and then I'm coming back with no, that's a style difference. It's not a difference of opinion. It's a difference of opinion. It's a difference of style.

Dov Baron: 25:39

We can both come to the same place with a slightly different understanding. Maybe that will broaden both of us if we can understand the context of style. And that again is emotional intelligence and emotional maturity. Emotional intelligence is not emotional maturity, no more than intellectual intelligence is emotional intelligence. Those are different things. You can have emotional intelligence intellectually, you understand it, but you've got the emotional intelligence of a stick because you don't know how to be with people. You understand, oh well, this is them and this is how you manage that, but it's got nothing. If you don't have the compassion, the empathy, the curiosity, you're not putting it into action.

Manya Chylinski: 26:18

Right Now. We're getting close to the time we have to wrap up, and you have mentioned a few times the emotional source code. Can you talk about that please?

Dov Baron: 26:28

So everything has an emotional source code. That means you, me, humans, individuals, collectives, as in XYZ Inc, your company and even your nation has an emotional source code. The emotional source code comes back to between one and five words usually, between one and five words usually. So it's the underlying driver of that individual, of that organization, of that nation, and it's not based on what's going on contemporarily. So if I say to people what do you think the emotional shortcut of America is, they go oh, it's division. No, it's not Absolutely, it's not. That's contemporary, that's not what it goes back to. If you were to guess what do you think it is, what would you say? If you had one to three words of what America? The emotional source code, like the base driving thing of what is America, what do you think it is? What would you guess?

Manya Chylinski: 27:28

Well, the first word that comes to mind and it's right there in the name is unity.

Dov Baron: 27:33

Right, it's interesting, but it's actually freedom, oh, okay, okay, the thing that everybody fights for, freedom. So you may remember a speech that started with I have a dream that one day that speech is called the. I have a dream speech, right? The only word that's mentioned more than dream almost two to one, is the word freedom. Let freedom reign. Freedom is the emotional source code of America. That means it's the most manipulated word. So if you are trying to create division, you say they are trying to take away your freedom. Yes, right, it works in England, right. Not, I saw, I did. I did the emotional. Take away your freedom. Yes, right, it works In England, right. So I did the Emotional Source Code of America, I did the Emotional Source Code of America, of England. What would you think America or England is? Oh, england not Britain.

Manya Chylinski: 28:24

The word that comes to mind is comfort.

Dov Baron: 28:27

Oh, that's interesting, it's superior. Oh, because they're the last great empire, they were the superior. We know better, dear we, you know, we don't understand it, we're almost better. So if you, you know, you speak to that superior authority. You know, oh, that's just the french, you know, we understand. Oh, they're not very classy, it's the americans, right, it's superior. It's down your nose, even if you're working class. If you're working class, the upper class looks down their nose at you, but even if you're working class, you look down your nose at the French or the Germans or the Americans. That's how you work the English population.

Dov Baron: 29:07

So everything comes down to this singular word, or not necessarily singular, but this short sentence. It can be five words, and once you find that, you can tap into what drives anything. Now, where does the emotional source code come from? It comes from the emotional impact at the beginning. So in the formative years of America, it was all about freedom. In the formative years of creating the British empire, it was about being better. In the formative years of creating the British empire, it was about being better than we're going to sort out those people over there. You know, they're a bit uncouth, right, superior. So it's the same thing with us is this formative years created this emotional source code.

Dov Baron: 29:51

Now your emotional source code is built in order for you to survive the environment you grew up in, to survive the lunatic asylum called your childhood. Now you might go well, I had a perfect childhood. No, you didn't. That's a lie, nobody did. But I'm not saying it for you to shit on your parents or them. It's just that you had to build something in order to cope.

Dov Baron: 30:14

What you did was you created something called the anatomy of meaning. You gave meaning to whatever things were. So you might have given the meaning to candy in your family as very bad, you know, because you had these very green, very leftist tree hugging people who said sugar is poison. Okay, you might've grown up with candy. Is is a reward and loved, right? So the meaning can be very different. And what's interesting is the meaning for two children in the same family can be vastly different. Yes, right, my meaning for my family versus my sibling's meaning is hugely different. Right, because my willingness to explore deeper has made a difference. So now, on top of your anatomy of meaning, you've built your identity. So now we're at the third level.

Dov Baron: 31:00

Identity is the central hub and it is the number one addiction of human beings. There is a neurochemical response to it. It's much more powerful than heroin. It's much more powerful than even your desire for life. People go. Well, isn't that the most important thing? Won't we behave in a primal way if our life is threatened? Yep, we will. But even more than that is identity. People go. How can you say that? Well, have you ever met anyone, or never heard of anyone, who was willing to strap a bomb to themselves and die for their identity? And they go. Oh yeah, shit. Identity is the number one addiction. Identity drives beliefs and values, and beliefs and values drive behavior.

Dov Baron: 31:41

That's the five levels of your emotional source code. When we're trying to change things, we often only operate in the first two levels, and so it fails. So when they bring me in to work with a company to help them find the emotional source code and build the purpose, I'm building the culture by virtue of going through those five levels, does it shake things up enormously? Does it always make them more successful? It does, and I always say to them it's not my job to try and make you more successful, but it definitely will. But it was going to rattle the cage before it does it. We're going to make people self-eject.

Dov Baron: 32:16

Yes, exactly like I tell people all the time stop building thick walls. Build a razor sharp thin wall and push people off. It doesn't matter which direction they go in, they're in or they're out, it's okay, but you want to make sure that the people who are in they get it. This is what we're about. Then you don't have division. It's like okay, this is the commonality. Yeah, I'm left, you're right, but we are driven by this Freedom. Yes, okay.

Manya Chylinski: 32:43

Yeah, wow, oh, thank you for going into detail on that. And as a last piece, can you let our listeners know how they can find out more about you and your work?

Dov Baron: 32:56

Thank you for asking. I appreciate that you can find out more about me at dovbaroncom. That's my main website. There you'll find my Curious Chronicles newsletter, which I write for, chronicles newsletter, which I write for, and it's pretty in-depth and good, insightful stuff that ranges from geopolitics to understanding your own psychology and curiosity. I also write a newsletter every Tuesday on LinkedIn. Yes, I'm a lunatic. I write way too much and do too much.

Dov Baron: 33:25

I also have a podcast. It's called the Dov Baron Show. You can find the Dov Baron Show wherever you get podcasts and I interview scientists, politicians, entertainers, leaders of all ilks. Next week, on Monday, I'm interviewing the ex-commander of MI5 and MI6. So that gives you a clue, but I've had neuroscientists on there, political candidates including the people who are running for president, et cetera, so it's pretty fascinating as well as neuroscientists and artists. It's amazing. So you can find me there and you can find us on YouTube and really I mean, if you just Google Dov Baron, you're going to find more than you could possibly need. And, of course, there's a great resource page on dovbaron. com where you can find my books and my articles and my special reports.

Manya Chylinski: 34:13

Excellent. I'll put links to those things in the show notes to make it easy for people to find you. Dove, thank you so much for being here. This has been such a fabulous conversation.

Dov Baron: 34:22

Thank you so much for inviting me. It's a pleasure and an honor. I look forward to future conversations with you and I wish you very well and for your listeners. Please stay curious, my friends. Stay curious. It'll change your life. And one more thing Please remember that Manya and her team that includes Neil thank you, neil do a lot of work to bring this show to you. I want you to go to wherever you listen to the podcast rate review, subscribe to the show and share it with others. It's not a one way street here. Live in reciprocity and generosity. Let other people know if you found value in this show. Let people know about that, whether it was my episode or any other episode. And, by the way, you can reach out to me personally, dov@ dovbaron. com, tell me what you got out of this episode. Let me know. Did it make a difference to you? Share it with somebody else. If I can help you reach out, I'm here.

Manya Chylinski: 35:16

Awesome Dov. Thank you so much.

Dov Baron: 35:18

You're welcome.

Manya Chylinski: 35:24

Thank you for listening. I'm Manya Chilinski. I help organizations build compassionate, resilient teams that thrive by creating environments where well-being is at the core. Often, people reach out to me during times of crisis or significant change, but the truth is that building a healthier, more supportive workplace can prevent issues before they arise and empower your teams to thrive no matter what challenges come their way. If you're ready to make a meaningful change, I'd love to connect. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your listening platform of choice. It really helps others find us, and if you'd like to continue the conversation, connect with me on LinkedIn or visit my website, wwwmanyachilinskicom. Thank you for being part of this journey with me.