116: Compassionate Leadership for the Modern Workplace, with Lori Pappas

What does it take to authentically lead with compassion? 

For Lori Pappas—entrepreneur, humanitarian, and author of "The Magic of Yes"—the answer lies at the intersection of self-awareness, organizational alignment, and redefined success metrics. She shares her journey from successful entrepreneur to humanitarian, revealing how addressing personal trauma enhanced her ability to lead with authentic compassion.

We discussed a framework for compassionate leadership built on three pillars: 

• System alignment (ensuring compensation, recognition, and promotion systems reflect compassionate values)
• Communication (seeking first to understand rather than be understood)
• Metrics that incorporate human well-being alongside productivity measures.

"Employees are brilliant," she emphasizes. "The mistake many leaders make is relying only on their management team." This approach not only improved operations but created such profound connections that 30 years later, her former employees still implement and value the leadership principles they learned together.

Ready to transform your leadership approach? Discover why Lori believes employee turnover is the greatest risk of non-compassionate leadership, and how building trust—sometimes literally through trust falls in Ethiopian huts—creates the foundation for teams that innovate, adapt, and thrive through any challenge.

Connect with Lori at www.loripappas.com or through her Facebook group The Wise Woman Sisterhood. Her book The Magic of Yes: Embrace the Wise Woman Within is available at Bookshop and Barnes & Noble.

Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.

Chapters

• 0:00 Compassion in Leadership and Metrics
• 3:17 Lori's Journey and Personal Transformation
• 6:28 Communication Challenges in Leadership
• 11:14 Measuring Compassion in Organizations
• 15:28 The Risk of Neglecting Compassionate Leadership
• 23:13 Resources and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Lori Pappas: 1:15

Really need to start adjusting what you're measuring and what success looks like. So if you want to lead with compassion, those metrics, or what you're measuring against and what the goals you set, need to have a compassion element.

Manya Chylinski: 1:39

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, manya Chylinski. My guest today is Lori Pappas. She is an entrepreneur, a humanitarian and author of the book the Magic of yes. We talked about compassion and leadership, the role of communication and the role of metrics in building a compassionate organization. You're really going to enjoy this conversation, hi, lori. I'm so happy that we're doing this episode today. Thank you for being here.

Lori Pappas: 2:14

Oh, it's so much my pleasure.

Manya Chylinski: 2:15

I'm very excited. Okay, before we dive in to the main topic, what's one thing that you have done that you never thought you would do in any area of your life?

Lori Pappas: 2:28

Quite frankly, that's a pretty easy question for me, because I've always been known for what I can do. I started a business as a single mom, grew it successful, sold it, retired failed retirement, but started a humanitarian organization, was successful, and now I'm finally, after two failed marriages, absolutely live with the love of my life. So all those things, though, are really related more to doing and now, with writing this book and being on these podcasts and putting myself out there. It's not about what I can do, it's about who I am, it's the being and being somebody that had a traumatic childhood and then developed a suit of armor that allowed me to kind of have lizard skin and navigate in the world of man. Having shed that lizard skin, the insides are exposed, and I never really thought that I'd ever be comfortable in my own skin, and particularly to the point of sharing what it's like being in my skin with other people Make sense.

Manya Chylinski: 3:53

It does make sense. Yeah, thank you for being so open about that, and you have had some amazing experiences, so for our listeners, you need to read so much more about what Lori has done. We're talking today about compassion and compassionate leadership and resiliency, and you have done so many things. You've had your own company, you've worked with these nonprofits, you are an author. How have you thought about the concept of compassion in the organizations that you've been part of and the organizations that you've led?

Lori Pappas: 4:31

I think it started really early days and it started when I was a salesperson. I was one of the first salespeople in the United States that was female and, being an overachiever, I had to overachieve, and the way that I did that was I was able to visualize what it was like to be the person sitting on the other side of the desk, and so once I had the picture of what their life was like, what their decision-making process would be determined, the different factors, the different elements of their decision-making practice, I could just sell to myself because I was that other person. That started in my early 20s and somewhere I learned the acronym WIFM. What's in it? For me, the W-I-I-F-M. Now, the important thing to understand is the me is the other person. So if I were to try to convince you, I would really want to understand what your motivating factors are and what it was like to walk in your shoes, and that was very successful.

Lori Pappas: 5:46

However, I remember when the Rwanda genocide was happening and I saw that on TV and it really, really bothered me that I couldn't feel these people's pain. I mean, I knew that I was sitting there watching and that what I was seeing was horrific, just like so many things today are. But I felt a separation between me, the watcher, and the person that was being the victim. The person that was being the victim and that led me to the path of studying anthropology and understanding more and more the behavior of mankind, and so I really got big in that in my 50s at that point in my life. But the thing that allowed my for-profit business to be successful because I started it as a single mom with two little kids and no money was that I really understood that everything had to be in alignment. But if I wanted my employees to treat my customers well, I needed to treat my employees well and I needed to make sure that the compensation system, the recognition system, the promotional system, everything was in alignment so that we were congruent, and that in itself, I believe, leads to compassionate leadership.

Lori Pappas: 7:16

I believe leads to compassionate leadership Because when you really want that alignment, you need to figure out what are the components. Even though in that period of my life I wasn't really feeling so much because I hadn't dealt with my junk from my childhood, I was operating more as a objective operative versus what I would describe as a compassionate operative I was determined to reach the goal, so it was getting everything in alignment that helped me do that Now in my humanitarian life. By then I had dealt with all my junk of my childhood. I was a feeling person. I had been able to activate empathy and compassion in myself, and it was much easier and much more effective, and that's why I was able to relate to these very, very primitive people who really hadn't been able to relate to Westerners previously. It was the compassion that allowed me to do that.

Manya Chylinski: 8:25

Yes, I appreciate you mentioning the importance of you tapping into your own compassion and empathy and understanding it in yourself, and how helpful that is as you're dealing with others. I imagine it's quite difficult to have compassion for someone else if you are finding it hard to have compassion for yourself.

Lori Pappas: 8:50

I think the only reason I was able to be successful that first half of my career in doing that was because I was so goal oriented to live that life on the outside. But I myself wasn't as congruent and in alignment as what I've been able to be since I dealt with my own trauma of my past.

Manya Chylinski: 9:20

Yes, an earlier guest of the podcast I'm not going to get the quote exactly right but mentioned that you know we look at leaders and we look to them to have the answers, but in fact so many of us as adults are still responding to things as if we were toddlers that we have not necessarily gone through the kind of work that I think you're talking about.

Lori Pappas: 9:45

That you went through, and the disconnect and how hard it can be to be compassionate and empathetic to others when you yourself are not able to feel that, you know, I remember back when I was, our company was growing very, very fast and I had to bring in another layer of management and I had a customer service manager who was in my office one day and I don't know, I knew that we weren't in a really good connective relationship. I mean, there was something off and I just wanted to figure out what it was. And he said you know, lori, you're like the Good Samaritan you see somebody suffering along the side of the world, you stop, you give them food and water and then you walk off. So you've done your good deed, but they're still not whole. They haven't been made whole, but in your mind, you've done your good deed and you've walked on. And we're still sitting there trying to figure, put our pieces back together again.

Lori Pappas: 10:54

Because when I confronted them on saying, well, what if we change the process, so that it was like this versus that and we'd have a better outcome, and blah, blah, blah, have a better outcome, and blah, blah, blah, they sometimes felt devastated because I was by asking them to change their process. They felt that they were being, that they hadn't measured up. Yes, for me. I thought well, good job, lori, you didn't attack the person. You didn't blame anybody. You just talked about changing the process and you moved on, but they hadn't processed like I did, and that's a difference.

Manya Chylinski: 11:35

Yes, and that's such a great example of how difficult it can be sometimes to communicate, times to communicate, and we know fully what we mean and our intention, and there are so many times when the person who hears it which is the other half of the communication equation they hear it differently. They don't hear it the way that you meant it. They hear it as perhaps a criticism of the way that they have been working versus a genuine approach to say let's make this better. I guess how much of this compassion and leadership that we're talking about and the struggles for communicate that we're talking about, how much do you think this is that as individuals, we struggle with finding that compassion for others versus really something as simple and fixable as a communication issue.

Lori Pappas: 12:33

Well, I think it's definitely a communication issue, but I don't think communication issues are simple. Okay, I think they're really complicated. Complicated and I think that whole issue of coming to a conversation carrying your own emotional baggage or carrying your own agenda. So, when two people are trying to communicate and one party is putting forth their position while the other party is just thinking about how they're going to defend the opposite position, they're not seeking to understand. They're seeking to be understood and the real key to communication is seeking to understand, is seeking to understand.

Manya Chylinski: 13:26

Yes, and I think we all have examples from our own lives of that disconnect and wanting to be understood, and I myself have a mantra that I say to myself when I catch that I'm trying to figure out what the next thing I want to say is, and I just say you have to listen. And I say that inside my head so that I stop thinking about whatever it is the next 20 things that I want to say and actually listen, and I have seen differences in the way that I'm able to communicate.

Lori Pappas: 14:02

Yeah, it's so important and good on you. I mean if, if more of us would do that, we'd be in a whole different spot.

Manya Chylinski: 14:14

Yes, let's be fair, I don't do it all the time. I have absolutely been caught figuring out my next thing to say and not hearing what you're saying at all.

Lori Pappas: 14:23

Right, I totally agree and I know mine right now is trying to remember to beam loving kindness to somebody that I'd just as soon see drop over or that they just aggravate me to no end. And I'm trying so hard these days to just beam loving kindness, trying so hard these days to just beam loving kindness, and it's a struggle, and it's not something that comes easy.

Manya Chylinski: 14:54

Agreed these days there, if one pays attention to the news, there's a tremendous amount of division. Their stories talk about how far apart we all are, when in fact we all have a lot more in common than we like to admit. But we can get so caught up in focusing on those differences. So good on you for having that approach, because we know that can be very difficult.

Lori Pappas: 15:21

Let's say I want to have that approach. Yes, that's my goal, I want to have that approach.

Manya Chylinski: 15:28

So, as someone who has been a leader in organizations, what do you see as the greatest failures in how we train leaders and what we ask them to do when it comes to preparing people to lead with compassion?

Lori Pappas: 15:46

Well, I think we've become too gold ribbon and maybe our metrics really aren't compassionate metrics, but they're doing metrics. When I was growing Job Boss, my for-profit company, I found that the only way I could keep my fingers out of the pie was having good metrics. And you start with doing metrics which really aren't compassionate metrics and you really need to start adjusting what you're measuring and what success looks like. So if you want to lead with compassion, those metrics, or what you're measuring against and what the goals you set, need to have a compassion element. There needs to be a compassion element for it to happen. I mean, nothing happens if you don't have intention. Things happen. You know what I mean, but you're really not marching towards the goal that you set out unless there's intention.

Manya Chylinski: 16:51

You bring up metrics, and that is a good point. I was just having a conversation with someone about how do you measure compassion or resilience in an organization in a way that makes a difference to the leader, who has pressures to increase productivity, turn around so many widgets, et cetera. What can you measure that would make a difference there?

Lori Pappas: 17:17

Well, you know, I think one of them really has to do. One real key element is that employee element. Not only employee retention, but employee happiness, and how, to what degree, do employees feel like they're contributing and making a difference? I remember I used to do a lot of surveying, and not only surveying the customers but surveying the employees, and we used to also do peer reviews and I had a peer hiring program program. I actually even had an industrial psychologist that interviewed employees before I hired them so that I could see whether or not they would fit into the type of team I was trying to build.

Lori Pappas: 18:09

So I really believe that it has a number of different elements. Feed into what your goal is. Number of different elements. Feed into what your goal is, and I urge people to take the time to discuss with their employees what that would look like. Employees are brilliant. They know a lot, and I think the mistake a lot of leaders make is that they have a tendency to rely on their management team. What I found was that it was really important every month for me to go to breakfast with every team and hear directly from the employees. They're the ones on the ground and it didn't take that much time, then that starts helping to define the path and what path needs to be adjusted.

Manya Chylinski: 19:02

Yes, I know of someone who talks about that employees will say nobody's ever asked me what do I need to be successful, what do I want? What do I care about? What do I want, what do I care about? And I think in many workplaces, many organizations it's transactional or it's hierarchical and we don't necessarily think that those questions matter. But I think, and I bet you think, that those are actually the core questions we should be asking.

Lori Pappas: 19:35

Oh, absolutely, and you know, one of the things that I think helped me learn these things was coming at it from a salesperson's perspective, because salespeople often compensated on performance, and so I had just this phenomenal sales team and I knew, okay, with this individual, she would respond to recognition. This individual, she would respond if I made sure I asked her opinion this individual, she would respond for this or that. So determining what the driving force is behind the employees then allows you to achieve phenomenal things.

Manya Chylinski: 20:22

Yes, and I can imagine people thinking that's great. That takes a lot of time.

Lori Pappas: 20:28

Well, the one thing that's really interesting to me is that I sold my business when I was 49. I was 49. I'm now 75. So a long time ago. And now that I coming out with this book, I reconnected with my sales team that I had worked for me back 30 years ago, and they talk about how that method and our relationship made all the difference in their career and they brought it forward, and that makes me really feel good. It does. It makes me feel good that somehow I was able to help them have a more successful life, even when we weren't still in a tight connection. But what's interesting is so I was successful in the US doing that, but when I started my charity in Ethiopia, oh my God, it was a whole different ballgame, because that culture is that you have to say yes even though you mean no. It's like really, really difficult to get underneath and figure out what needs to be done. But here in the US, with the US employees, it's not hard. Yes, it's not hard, yes.

Manya Chylinski: 21:56

Well, what a tribute to the work that you did and the compassion that you had that all these years later, those team members remember what they learned and were living those principles even moving on from working with you as a leader.

Lori Pappas: 22:16

Oh yeah, and they're fabulous. They're just fabulous people. They're great. I just love every single one of them. I mean, they're the reason why I'm sitting here today. They helped me become successful. We tapped into each other, but I certainly can't take all the credit.

Manya Chylinski: 22:35

I think you can take some of the credit. All right, so we're getting close to the end of our time. And one final question what do you think is the biggest risk to an organization if they don't embrace a compassionate leadership model?

Lori Pappas: 22:53

Oh, I think it's employee turnover, and you've got to have good employees, I mean, and your employees make your business, they really do. You can have the most phenomenal little widget, but that little widget is going to go out of date. But if you've got a team of people that are really a team and have trust and leverage off of each other, you're able to come up with a new widget or a new service or this or that. It gives you the flexibility and it gives you so many minds that are able to focus on the problem when you run into challenges. So I think that the biggest risk is employee turnover and dissatisfaction and then I think, ultimately you're doomed.

Manya Chylinski: 23:45

Yeah, absolutely. You said one of my favorite words, which is trust.

Lori Pappas: 23:50

Yeah.

Manya Chylinski: 23:51

That's such a core to building a compassionate workplace.

Lori Pappas: 23:56

Right, you know just a quick thing. So I remember I was over in Ethiopia and we were doing this training and it's in this little hut and it's hot, and you have all these employees and I'm trying to bring forward some of these methodologies that had helped me out in my past, and so remember that, trust, fall where you stand on the table and you just fall backwards, as so I was trying to get these guys to do that and we got there, but I was the first one that had to stand on that table and fall back into their arms. And then they got it, but it was like, oh my God, what is this crazy woman doing? So countercultural.

Manya Chylinski: 24:41

Well, I think about that. I'm not sure I've ever done a trust fall and I'm already feeling like nervous just thinking about trusting someone enough to do that. Oh well, lori, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you. Before we go, let our listeners know, please, a little bit more about yourself and how they can learn more about you and your work and it's just simply lauriepappascom, so that's l-o-r-i-p-a-p-p-a-s.

Lori Pappas: 25:23

All those p's are peter, and so I have a facebook group called the wise woman sisterhood. I have a newsletter called sticky thoughts, which provides glimpses into the lives of extraordinary ordinary women, and got a facebook page, trying to have my Instagram's a little iffier than my Facebook. But everything is under either Lori Pappas or the Magic of yes, and my book, the Magic of yes Embrace the Wise Woman Within is now available on Amazon and Barnes, noble and every place, and all those links are on my website, so the website's really the place to go.

Manya Chylinski: 26:02

We will put links in the show notes to make it easier for folks to get in touch with you. Lori, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us today. It was such a great conversation. It was very fun.

Lori Pappas: 26:13

Thank you so much.

Manya Chylinski: 26:16

Thank you for listening. I'm Manya Chylinski. I help organizations build compassionate, resilient teams that thrive by creating environments where well-being is at the core. Often, people reach out to me during times of crisis or significant change, but the truth is that building a healthier, more supportive workplace can prevent issues before they arise and empower your teams to thrive no matter what challenges come their way. If you're ready to make a meaningful change, I'd love to connect. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcast or your listening platform of choice. It really helps others find us, and if you'd like to continue the conversation, connect with me on LinkedIn or visit my website, www. manyachylinski. com. Thank you for being part of this journey with me.