Notes on Resilience
Conversations about trauma, resilience, and compassion.
How do we genuinely support individuals who have experienced trauma and build inclusive and safe environments? Trauma significantly affects the mental and physical health of those who experience it, and personal resiliency is only part of the solution. The rest lies in addressing organizational, systemic, and social determinants of health and wellness, and making the effort to genuinely understand the impact of trauma.
Here, we ask and answer the tough questions about how wellness is framed in an organizational context, what supports are available and why, what the barriers are to supporting trauma survivors, and what best practices contribute to mental wellness. These conversations provide a framework to identify areas for change and actionable steps to reshape organizations to be truly trauma sensitive.
Notes on Resilience
121: The Business Case for Compassion, with Cynthia Pong
What happens when a leader admits they've made a mistake?
This vulnerability forms the bedrock of trust in modern organizations. And trust is in critically short supply. The psychological contract between employers and employees has fundamentally fractured, leaving many professionals feeling disposable rather than valued.
In this conversation with executive coach Cynthia Pong, we explore how compassionate leadership creates the psychological safety necessary for high-performing teams and the need to invest in measuring and developing compassion as a core competency. We discuss practical metrics for tracking psychological safety (like the number and types of questions team members feel comfortable asking) and examine how organizations can rebuild trust in small, meaningful steps.
The stakes couldn't be higher. As Cynthia notes, companies will lose out on A++ talent, who will go to a competitor because the competitor has a better culture. With five generations in today's workplace and values-driven Gen Z employees entering the workforce, compassionate leadership is essential for organizational survival.
Cynthia Pong, JD, is an award-winning executive coach and speaker who empowers women of color leaders to advance their careers into positions of power. She is Founder and CEO of Embrace Change, working with a team to provide specialized coaching and training programs for high-performing women of color up to the C-suite. She is the author of the book Don’t Stay in Your Lane: The Career Change Guide for Women of Color.
You can learn more about her company on the website or LinkedIn.
Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.
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Producer / Editor: Neel Panji
Invite Manya to inspire and empower your teams and position your organization as a forward-thinking leader in well-being, resilience, and trauma sensitivity.
Please subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your listening platform of choice. It really helps others find us.
#trauma #resilience #compassion #MentalHealth #CompassionateLeadership #leadership #survivor
As the leader of my company, I've had to admit mistakes to people, and I certainly have made a lot, and I will make more in the future. There are things and times where you make a judgment call. You're maybe under pressure, maybe you're not. Whatever, we all make mistakes and those mistakes have ramifications sometimes. So it is then my responsibility as a leader to own that and then figure out how do I make it right to the best that I can right. So that's all. I think that it is Easier said than done.
Manya Chylinski:Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, manya Chylinski. My guest today is Cynthia Pong. She's an executive coach and speaker who empowers women of color leaders to advance their careers into positions of power. She's also a Forbes contributor and an author, and we had the best conversation about compassion and leadership. The biggest risk to organizations how do you measure this? Because we know how important that is and I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation, cynthia. I'm so excited that we are recording this conversation of ours.
Cynthia Pong:Me too, I'm delighted to be here. I've been looking forward to this for a while.
Manya Chylinski:To get us kicked off. What is one thing that you've done in any area of your life that you never thought you would do?
Cynthia Pong:love this question and I thank you for starting with it because I think it's such an interesting way to not do the usual small talk, or what have you? Um, so I thought about this for a while. I was like what thing do I choose? I'm very bad at choosing one thing only. So I, my mind kept going back to this one memory, which was hiking the inca trail. For a while I was like what thing do I choose? I'm very bad at choosing one thing only. So I, my mind kept going back to this one memory, which was hiking the Inca trail in Peru. So, yeah, I did that many years ago now Can't remember exactly how many years.
Cynthia Pong:Also, we talked about how time is like seemingly meaningless now. But, um, I went many years ago with a friend of mine, when I was in my first career as a public defender, and it was this big trip that we geared up for, literally, and we were there, we were hiking the trail for, like it was like a four day hike or something, but we were in Peru for, I think, two weeks, like two full weeks. But the reason I chose it for the thing I never thought I would do because one, of course, I thought I would do it at some point because I planned the trip, you know, so it wasn't like a total surprise, but I will say it was one of the hardest things like because the altitude is so high there when you're taking one step you're like short of breath and I had, you know, I'm a person that is privileged not to have really felt that many times in my life and it literally was like why can't I breathe, breathe, why can't I take this step? It's not that hard because I'm looking at it and I'm like I've done harder hikes before, but because you're already that high up, I mean Mania, it was so hard and like.
Cynthia Pong:Meanwhile the 20 year olds were like bounding ahead and like already at the next rest point and I was like at the back with my walking sticks. You know our delightful guide, who's a woman, so I very unusual there was only like a few women who are the guides, mostly on our men. I still keep in touch with her. She was really kind to just like be at the back with me, but but you know, I made it through. It was an incredible experience. I don't know if you're a big outdoorsy person, but that is incredible that you did that.
Manya Chylinski:I am not a big outdoorsy person but, as a friend of mine said she described herself I'm not outdoorsy, but I'm outsidey. So I like to be outside, walking, doing things, all sorts of things outside, but I'm not a back country. But I'm not a back country put a pack on my back and sleep in a tent person like that is. So. I'm so impressed with people like you who are able to do that and, as you say, the challenge with the Inca Trail is the altitude, so I'm doubly impressed that you were doing that.
Cynthia Pong:I. Part of me is like, oh, I kind of want to go back because, like I went with my one friend and my spouse, you know, didn't get to see it. So like part of me is like, oh, I kind of want to go back Cause, like I went with my one friend and my spouse, you know, didn't get to see it. So like part of me is like, oh, we should go and like do it again. But I'm like I can't do that now. Like who am I joking? I yeah, no, not realistic. Let's just stick to the local hikes around the Hudson area.
Manya Chylinski:Yes, exactly Like a day pack. I can do that. I can do the day, yeah something more flat.
Manya Chylinski:That's kind of my speed now, Awesome Well thank you for sharing, and I think that ties a little bit into our conversation on compassion and empathy and having compassion for ourselves and recognizing when we can and can't step out of our comfort zone. When we're talking about compassion in an organizational context, we're thinking about workplaces or other organizations. What do you think is the first step that an organization should take to embed compassion into the culture, especially because we've got a lot of organizations that we can look at now that historically have been more transactional or hierarchical, which is antithetical to compassion?
Cynthia Pong:yeah, right. So I I thought about this and I took it very literally, your question, um, and so I'm gonna and I also believe in like micro steps and really trying to, you know, baby step into things, especially if it is a big change, because we live in so much chaos already at baseline, everyone is like so much so stressed out, like you don't know who's got what past traumas, like it's really intense right now, you know. So that's also demonstrating and showing compassion for other people and where they're at. So the first step is to accept and to know, recognize and accept that it's going to be messy, like this process you're about to embark on. It's going to be messy, you're going to make mistakes or feel like you made mistakes and it might be mistakes and air quotes or it might be mistakes, but I think it's actually kind of like. The radical first step is to acknowledge that and to try to continually embrace that, because in so doing, you are embedding thread of compassion and a through line of that from the very beginning, which is that, like you're trying to embark on a new thing, it's going to be very different. You don't know how it's going to look.
Cynthia Pong:None of us have a crystal ball and it could look any number of ways you might also have. Like it could have a crystal ball and it could look any number of ways you might also have. Like it could be a tough journey, you might some unexpected negative things could happen along the way. But like, if we don't hold that compassion for ourselves and each other and what we're trying to do jointly, then it's kind of like, well, what, what is the point anyway? And also to be clear, I'm not suggesting that people flip from like okay, you have a hierarchical org chart and culture like, completely to like a flat organization, you know, overnight or whatever, I forget the one, the kind of org structure is very rare, but it's like pods, you know, and like I think it was like that, that shoe company of course I'm forgetting the name, oh, zappos, yeah, yeah, they do.
Cynthia Pong:You know what I'm talking about. It's it's not oligarchy, it's like so oligopoly or something that there's some term where it's like pods of decision making or something. I'm not suggesting that that's doable for, frankly, most organizations, but like the first step understand it's going to be messy. And then I think too is like, come up with a plan, like your first plan, like kind of, if you're writing, you do the like shitty first draft, like what is your version of that for a plan of how you are going to embark on this transition, and really I think it has to come down to just talking about it. So let me stop there, because there's a lot. What do you think?
Manya Chylinski:Well, one of the traps I think any of us get caught up in when making a change is seeing the end goal and realizing it's a lot of work to get from point A to point Z and forgetting that really the first step is point A to point B be, and that can be, as you said, pulling together a plan that doesn't have to be perfect, or the first step could literally be deciding that this is what you want to do.
Manya Chylinski:Yes, no you're absolutely right, yep, and certainly organizations these days like to be moving fast and if they're public organizations, they've got quarterly results they need to be showing, and so I think there's this bias, for we want it's not going to show results in three months.
Cynthia Pong:Right, I know, and how do you even go about thinking of how do you measure it? You know what I mean. It's not something necessarily like that. I mean I would argue you can absolutely measure it, but it is something that takes time. Measure it, but it is something that takes time and I think we had talked about kind of before this. There is that pressure. I think it's not only fear, it's also a lot of stress around it, which is, again, antithetical to what this endeavor is kind of at its core. But understanding that a lot of companies with the culture that they have and or I don't't know, I guess, the commitments that they have made to shareholders, to whoever you know the board, etc, it just it makes it extremely challenging, I'll just say, to put it lightly, to embark on this because, yeah, like they just want what are the results, what is the productivity? You know what?
Manya Chylinski:all that stuff right, and we're going to get a little deeper into the measurement in a little bit, but it's not a straight line. Build compassion for every, for every compassionate word. You say you build one more widget. It's. It's not a direct line. One thing I've been talking a lot with leaders recently is the concept of vulnerability, because I think that is basis for building a culture where your employees trust you, and thus that is the compact, you know, the basis of the compassionate culture, and I think that is something that's very hard for any human, definitely hard for leaders.
Cynthia Pong:I mean, if, also, if there's any Brene Brown heads out here, you know, like, yeah, I think it's so it really underpins the whole kind of idea around this. But, like you, you can't, in order to do the brave thing and try to shift how our workplaces are, do anything that goes kind of against the grain. We do have to, I, we do have to. I think we do have to be vulnerable, because otherwise you're going to be fake. And if you are fake in how you talk about things, people pick up on the inauthenticity and that does not build trust and in fact it breaks trust. And there's already so little built-in trust in companies and organizations today.
Cynthia Pong:Mania, like, I think my first Forbes article for the leadership strategy, like contributor column that I write was about how the social contract is, the psychological contract at work is completely broken. Like post pandemic. There's no more feeling of like, yeah, we get that, this is a transaction, I'm coming here to do this work in exchange for the pay, but like there's no feeling that employers are ever going to actually help and support their employees when things go sideways. Because we saw what happened in the pandemic and we saw. You know, we're experiencing what's happening now and so that trust is so broken and I think, I mean, it's going to take a long time, I think, to rebuild that.
Cynthia Pong:But you have to center the vulnerability at the beginning of that, because it requires that you acknowledge that we went through this reality where, I would argue, mistakes were made. You know which? I'm not against mistakes, we're human, but that's the entire thing about it. We have to be able to own that, because if we're going to pretend it wasn't, that we did not make some mistakes along the way, you're just breaking the trust more and more. What do you want? You're never going to have an engaged workforce, you're never going to have people that want to go hard for your company mission, and you're just going to churn them out.
Manya Chylinski:So I so appreciate what you say about mistakes. I see such a fear to own up to making a mistake when we all do it and certainly some mistakes have more serious consequences than others Absolutely. And yet I have so much more respect for someone, in whatever role, in whatever level of our society or an organization, who owns up to oops, that's not what we intended. Let's fix it. I'm sorry. I don't know if we ever had that, but it feels like if we did, it certainly has been lost.
Cynthia Pong:Yeah, I'm not going to lie here. I'm going to say part of it is because I'm a trained lawyer. I don't practice anymore, but I became a lawyer so I could be a public defender. I think a lot of it has to do with lawyers and how litigious we are, because if you say something like I'm sorry, it can and depending on the situation, it will come back to bite you in a lot of ways and I think that that's a real pragmatic, tricky position that a lot of leaders are in.
Cynthia Pong:I understand that point of view as well. Like sometimes there are things that you cannot say, or that you can't really say directly, or that you know legal won't let you say, or like you know what I mean. So I fully understand that and I also have empathy and compassion for that, because this is a system we're all in. We did not individually build this thing. We are now in it. We are all kind of, to varying degrees, forced to be complicit in it. Some of us are, you know, in different places with that, but it's not a blame game either and I want to make like that's very antithetical to the compassion approach as well. But, like also, you can have accountability and you can have, um, dare I say, reconciliation in these processes.
Cynthia Pong:I mean, I will just say also, like I know I talk a good game around this, but as the leader of my company, I've had to admit mistakes to people. You know what I mean, and I certainly have made a lot and I will make more in the future. There are things and times where you make a judgment call. You're maybe under pressure, maybe you're not, whatever, we all make mistakes and those mistakes have ramifications sometimes. So it is then my responsibility as a leader to own that and then figure out how do I make it right to the best that I can right. So that's all. I think that it is Easier said than done.
Manya Chylinski:Absolutely. As you were talking about lawyers and our litigious society, it reminded me I had a conversation with somebody in an industry who specifically said we on the front lines who deal with customers, are prohibited from saying these kinds of things because it would open us up to lawsuits, even though these kinds of things are the things that the people calling us need to hear and want to hear and but we are prohibited from saying that because it would open us up to a lawsuit. And I certainly can't change that whole industry, but I it just feels, as you said, we are all in a system that none of us individually made but we all contribute to and we are all the recipients of and it can be so hard to make those changes. And I know you and I both talk about making systemic changes and it feels like we're pushing that boulder up the hill.
Cynthia Pong:Sometimes I say most of the time, but at the same time, like doesn't mean we don't, you know, keep trying, and that it's kind of like resilient strategies for people who are doing this too. We got to make sure that we fill our cup and, you know, we don't burn ourselves out and things like that in the process. But I love this example of what you're saying. I think it's a really great opportunity to talk about middle spaces or like middle ways, third ways, etc. Because sure, if that customer service person cannot say these five things or whatever, the long list is probably 500. But you know they can't say those five things. They want to still support this client or customer. Also, they know that it's good for business if they do.
Cynthia Pong:What are the other ways that they can still do that? So, at a bare minimum, I think that we bring a certain approach, energy, vibe, how we talk about it to an interaction, even if it's typing through a text, even if it's, you know, through a screen or what. We bring something to that. So I feel like for you know, the person who's frustrated because they're like I can't say this to my direct report, but I actually really want them to know, but like if I say this my, you know someone's going to come down on me, right, like if you are simply there with the energy that is supportive to this person and you give them space for them to speak and be heard and know that they are seen by you and that you hear them.
Cynthia Pong:Right, the customer service, client service person could do that as well. Right, like things that are just like I hear that or like you know whatever they're allowed to say. Right, but the version of that that's really neutral. That is just neutral, affirming that you hear and see them at baseline. I actually think that can go a long way.
Manya Chylinski:I think it was more traditional in the past that work was work and home life was you left it at the door. And now it's much more that people are expecting work to be a community. And when we are part of a community that doesn't recognize what's going on with me individually whether that's trauma, which is something I think about a lot, or regular old stress but if I'm in a community and doesn't recognize that, then I don't want to be part of that community anymore.
Cynthia Pong:I think that is what a lot of people are grappling with is the sense that, yeah, in a way and it's something I've like thought about or wrote about in the Forbes article too but it's like and it's something I've like thought about or wrote about in the Forbes article too but it's like we want our team members, our employees, in our companies, we want them to kind of like go hard for the company, basically right, like do your best, advance the work you know, be productive, engaged, et cetera. Like move, move the needle on all of this forward for the company. But it's like then, if you're going, it's almost like there's like a predictably unpredictable or something is like a book from years ago about like behavioral psychology and stuff. I don't know if you ever read that book. I did not. I need to go back and reread it or just revisit this part.
Cynthia Pong:But one thing that stuck out in my head was that when you combine social and transactional dynamics, weird things happen. So, for example, if I was like Manya, do you want to come over to my house for dinner? And you came over for dinner and then at the end I presented you with a bill as if you were at a restaurant. Okay, things would get weird If you went to a restaurant and you were like thanks for having me over and then you left without paying Also weird, right. So I was thinking about that when you were describing this, because this idea of like community work, it creates like this mishmash of expectations, and I'm not saying either way is like right or wrong. I don't think it's like that at all. It's kind of just like what is the reality that we're in. My expectation on one side is that this is more going to be like this sort of exchange, but on the other side, it's treated like this sort of exchange. Those two things being different, you're going to have issues.
Manya Chylinski:Absolutely, and I think. I think we are having issues and that's one of the things that we're seeing in the workplace. We are having issues and that's one of the things that we're seeing in the workplace. Now, do you think we're doing a good job in leadership development, whether that's within an organization or in formal education, in preparing leaders to be compassionate within their organizations?
Cynthia Pong:Oh no, I do not. That's not to be like hypercritical, because I can't even think of most of the time I hear from our clients and community clients on both sides like they don't even have basic first time manager training. So if we were to talk about how to be a compassionate leader I mean aside from the work you're doing I really struggle to think of where that would be happening. And you know, of course, and embrace change, we have like a leadership accelerator and like it's kind of embedded in, like our approach. But you know, we're on the fringe right, like I'm not going to pretend like we're kind of in the middle of the mix of it all, but I don't think we do nearly enough about that.
Cynthia Pong:I think one of the big missteps is, even when we think about leadership development, we are thinking only about those skills and the tools, like you know, the same kind of frameworks and rubrics from decades ago that I think are really outdated for nowadays, where it's just like you're this kind of leader and you're that kind of leader, like your leadership style or like whatever things like that that I don't know they really apply so much nowadays where workforces are distributed, you've got five generations in the workplace, like it was my frustration actually with like not finding leadership frameworks, that I felt like resonated with our clients, that I created a leadership styles like a personalized style, like buzzfeed style, personality quiz thing for leadership styles that specifically speaks to women of color and non-binary people of color and stuff. But I think there's a lot of room for improvement there. Basically, and I'll stop because that was a lot.
Manya Chylinski:No, that was great and I do see that challenge, as you said. You know I find it interesting. People will say, yeah, I think compassion is important, but it's not something we invest in, and and I understand that because, to get back to what you were talking about earlier about the measurement, I think it is difficult for companies to recognize how it's going to bring them value and be better for the bottom line, because there isn't that direct connection. So what metrics or indicators do you use and do you recommend for organizations when they're trying to measure how to embed compassion in their culture?
Cynthia Pong:I love this because I'm also big into like let's measure things. You know you're not going to know where you're at and you're not even going to be able to see like the winds along the way if you don't have some kind of measurement right, because our feelings can change like the winds along the way if you don't have some kind of measurement right, because our feelings can change like the direction of the wind. So one thing here that I think is like a big bucket is that's connected to the compassion in the workplace. Is, you will like, if in a workplace that has a practice I won't say culture, I'll just say practice of compassion, you're going to have more increased psychological safety. That's what I have found. That's what I think is kind of like an implied finding from like Google's Aristotle project that they did a couple years ago, where they were, like you know, the most productive teams, that the number one factor is they had high psychological safety, by which I mean, you know, people on teams felt safe to ask questions, to ask real questions, to ask questions that someone else might be afraid was a quote, unquote, dumb question. To make mistakes, to take a risk, knowing that if they did that and things went sideways, they would not be shamed, they would not be punished, they would not be judged, they would not be mocked all of that kind of thing, which I think again is very closely tied to this entire like compassion, culture and practice thing. So one thing you could do is you could look at, okay, when we have a team meeting, let's say we start, you know, in January of one year, just get baseline right Before you kind of start anything in a typical team meeting with this particular team, how many questions are being asked and what are those questions. And you just write them down or whatever. Like you know, if you're using your ai note taker, like it'll be in there, what have you. And then maybe, um, once a month, when you have this meeting, you like keep measuring that and then you can kind of see and I bet you will see there, like over time there's going to be some evolution there. Either you know the number of questions might change or the type of questions might change. Like, if you look at that data I know it's not exactly well, it is actually both quantitative and qualitative if you look at that you're gonna find something. And it's like, even if you don't, then like you're. You've got other metrics too right.
Cynthia Pong:So I think there's that at a larger org level, looking at um churn, are people staying? Are people leaving? Are people who are staying, is their productivity going down? Um, because there's a lot of people now, because of how the job market is. They're not necessarily leaving, but you're not getting their best work, not by a long stretch. They're just there because they know what the job market is like and they're biding their time until they can leave. So you know, like, looking at numbers like that, of course it can be confounded by other factors, but those type of things are where I start. I would start. What about you?
Manya Chylinski:yes. Well, what you said the, the meeting, the measuring the questions in the meeting I think is brilliant, because that absolutely gets at. Do people feel safe to ask questions? And then do they feel safe to challenge you and ask those deeper questions? Seems to me that high turnover almost only says you aren't a psychologically safe organization and you don't have trust and you don't have compassion, because you know there's certainly people turn over for sort of I'm going to quote regular reasons, but it seems to me if you've got a high turnover, it's entirely because they're dissatisfied with the way they're being treated in the company or by their manager. Right, we hear that people don't leave the company, they leave their manager. But that makes it all the more important to be training our managers on how to manage and to do so with compassion and empathy. All right, well, we are almost at the end of our time. It went so fast, I know it went so fast. Well, tell me, what do you think is the biggest risk to an organization if they don't embrace compassionate leadership?
Cynthia Pong:I also want to loop in something that I thought of just now when you were sharing, which is that I think there are some business models, to be totally honest, where the business model is to turn people out very quickly, at least out of some roles, but not out of all roles. So there's some nuance there and I, you know, I'm not like condoning that as a business model either. I just think that that's kind of part of the reality in some places. But there are costs to that too. Which ties me back into the answer to this question, which is there's serious cause to like not thinking about, not even asking the question, or like at least setting an intention to try to be, like a little bit more compassionate in the leadership and in the culture at the workplace, which is that you're going to lose out on talent. Like you are, you are not going to get your A++ talent for those positions that you know, I know, like you're not gonna have A++ talent in like every single role, nor do most organizations necessarily need that, but you do need it in key places, and if you don't have some of that, there's going to be people who will vote with their feet and they will go to your competitor because the competitor has a better culture. You're also going to burn people out faster, like if there's no understanding of of the real life, hardship, past trauma, current trauma that people are going through 100%, 90% of them. They're thinking during the day when they're on the clock for you is, how are they going to get out of there and when?
Cynthia Pong:And then I'll say the third thing is we are on the cusp of, or like in the middle of, this kind of silver tsunami where a lot of people with a lot of knowledge and organizational institutional knowledge and value are retiring or they're going to retire soon.
Cynthia Pong:And we've got Gen Z coming up and they're very different. They're very different from millennials, different from I mean, I'm like on the cusp but I'm culturally more like Gen X. So there's like a lot going on there and there's different expectations and demands for different kind of groups. I think kind of roughly ages of people. So the trend like values is extremely important to Gen Z, like even more so than the young millennials, and they will let you know. So it's kind of like leadership beware, if you don't have a plan for how you're going to bridge that you're going to have a bunch of, you're going to have the vacuum in the leadership and then you're gonna have a bunch of people who are there who are just completely not equipped to take on the leadership mantle that you need them to, and that's going to ripple out.
Manya Chylinski:Absolutely so. What is giving you hope right now?
Cynthia Pong:That's not the million dollar question. Like I'm very aware that I need to find ways to fill my cup because, as someone who naturally is sort of a pessimist, plus I'm a New Yorker, plus I'm, you know I still have lawyer brain in my head. Like I'm very quick to see the negative. You know what I mean. But like in the work that I do, the coaching, the like employee engagement work, like the training I, I my cup is filled when I talk to like people like you who really get it, you know, when we're doing work where I can literally see that we are, if not actively making things better, in that moment which I would argue we are we are at least making things less worse for people.
Cynthia Pong:You know what I mean, because I can't go, our team, can't go in for any engagement and just like wave a magic wand and change the culture and the systems that particular team is in, for example. But we can help them feel supported, Like we can communicate to them that they matter, we can show them that they are seen and that they are heard and that they are stronger than they think and that they bring so much value, even more than that, and they're not just, like you know the sum of their labor that they can provide for a company. That's the stuff that gives me hope and that keeps me going, because I know that that's going to be increasingly more important as we go into this future.
Manya Chylinski:I know that that's going to be increasingly more important as we go into the future, absolutely, and that's the perfect thought for us to wrap up. So, cynthia, thank you so much for joining me and sharing your wisdom with my listeners.
Cynthia Pong:Thank you so much, Manya. This has been really really great, and thank you for doing all the work that you do. Thank you.
Manya Chylinski:Thank you for listening. I'm Manya Chylinski. I help organizations build compassionate, resilient teams that thrive by creating environments where well-being is at the core. Often, people reach out to me during times of crisis or significant change, but the truth is that building a healthier, more supportive workplace can prevent issues before they arise and empower your teams to thrive no matter what challenges come their way. If you're ready to make a meaningful change, I'd love to connect. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcast or your listening platform of choice. It really helps others find us, and if you'd like to continue the conversation, connect with me on LinkedIn or visit my website, www. manyachylinski. com. Thank you for being part of this journey with me.
