122: Compassionate Leadership in Uncertain Times, with Keri Ohlrich and Kelly Guenther

What if the secret to effective leadership wasn't having all the answers, but rather creating space for genuine human connection? In this enlightening conversation with Keri Ohlrich and Kelly Guenther, co-founders of the Abbracci Group, we explore the transformative power of compassion in the workplace.

The dialogue begins with a fundamental truth: people want to feel cared for, regardless of whether they're at home or at work. Despite this simple reality, many managers struggle to show genuine empathy and vulnerability—often because they've been conditioned to maintain professional distance or believe they must always provide immediate solutions to every problem.

As Keri points out, it is hard to fully listen as humans, especially in our hyper-connected, distraction-filled world. Yet this skill becomes increasingly crucial in times of uncertainty. Kelly emphasizes that managers needn't have answers to every question; sometimes their most valuable contribution is simply acknowledging, "I don't know what's going on, but as soon as I have information, I'll share it with you."

The conversation navigates the delicate balance between compassion and boundaries. Contrary to popular belief, these concepts aren't opposites—in fact, clear expectations and boundaries are themselves compassionate acts. Without them, managers risk becoming ineffective "besties" rather than leaders who can guide their teams through challenges.

Perhaps most compelling is the business case for compassion. When employees don't feel cared for, engagement plummets, discretionary effort disappears, and eventually, customer experience suffers. It might not happen right away, Keri warns, but eventually you will lose customers, clients, and revenue.

Through personal stories and practical insights, this episode offers a masterclass in human-centered leadership that acknowledges our shared vulnerability while maintaining the structure necessary for organizational success.

Keri Ohlrich and Kelly Guenther are the founders of Abbracci Group, co-authors of  “Whatever the Hell You Want," and hosts of The Breakout podcast.  Dr. Keri Ohlrich has over two decades in HR leadership, and embodies a passion for transforming workplaces into thriving ecosystems. Kelly Guenther brings a holistic approach to people and talent, focusing not only on the organization but also on the individuals who create teams.

Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.

Chapters

• 0:00 The Power of Listening in Leadership
• 4:57 Vulnerability: Managers Being Human
• 9:58 Navigating Difficult Conversations
• 16:17 Setting Boundaries in Compassionate Leadership
• 22:26 The Business Case for Compassion
• 29:49 About The Abrachi Group and Beyond

Transcript

Kelly Guenther: 1:15

Managers like to be able to be a point of refuge, a place of I can tell you the answer and I can give you this information and you can do what you need. I think sometimes it's being okay to say you know what, I really don't know what's going on. As soon as I have information, I'll share it with you and showing a bit of vulnerability. I always love when managers can be vulnerable with employees because it shows that they're just as human and they have just as few answers sometimes as we do.

Manya Chylinski: 1:43

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, manya Chylinski. I have two guests today Keri Ohlrich and Kelly Guenther. They are the co-founders of the Abbracci Group and they share a passion for helping people transform and become their best, most authentic selves. They do this through projects in people and talent coaching, talent management, and they are the authors of the book Whatever the Hell you Want, which I love that riddle and they're the hosts of the podcast the Breakout. I really enjoyed my conversation with them of the podcast the Breakout. I really enjoyed my conversation with them. Kelly Keri, I'm so excited to have you both on my podcast. Thanks for being here. Thank you, we're so happy too. And I'm going to start with you, keri. What is one thing that you have done in any area of your life that you never thought you would do?

Keri Ohlrich: 2:38

Okay, well, two things came to mind, so I do like to break the rules, as you know, manya. One is writing a book. Never thought I'd do that. And then, after the first book, I never thought I'd write a second book. So there you go. Now there's two, and then also starting my own business. I never thought I'd do that. So here we are talking about books and business. Oh, fabulous.

Manya Chylinski: 3:00

Well, thank you for sharing that. And, kelly, same question to you.

Kelly Guenther: 3:05

For me. Definitely writing a book Never thought that was in the cards for me Certainly starting a business, and I would add a third is moving across the country. I never thought I would do that and it's the best decision I ever made.

Keri Ohlrich: 3:23

But what's so funny about that, I have to say, is Kelly, when she was talking to my husband a long time ago, he asked her if you were to move, where would you ever move? And she said California. And again seemed like that is a ridiculous dream and whatever. And now where are we California?

Manya Chylinski: 3:37

Yeah, oh, that's amazing. Yeah, and you together, you said three things that are a lot of things people don't think they're ever going to do because they are hard. Starting a business, writing a book, moving across the country each of those is something hard to do. So congratulations for both of you for doing something difficult and bringing your amazing thoughts and wisdom and business into the world. Thank you, let's dive in, and, kelly, I want to start with you. Why do you think compassion and empathy are important to bring into the workplace?

Kelly Guenther: 4:17

Because, being a human myself and having worked all of my life, it's people want to feel cared for. They want to feel like someone has their back, that someone's advocating for them, that someone sees them beyond the role, of the title of the position that they're in, which certainly is why they're there. But people hire for culture, fit. They hire for all of the intangibles, not just the technical, and so for me to work so hard at recruiting someone for a role, bring them in and then to not act with compassion and integrity and with treating them as a human that they are, that's going through a lot of things in their life is a detriment to actually an employer brand. So there are so many reasons why managers and employees alike need to treat each other with compassion and empathy. Thank you for that.

Keri Ohlrich: 5:05

Keri? What do you have to add to that? I just think Kelly said it. It's that the caring word.

Keri Ohlrich: 5:10

We all want to feel like someone's listening to us, that someone cares about us in our romantic relationships, in our friendship and at work. That doesn't get turned off. If you think about your friendships and your relationships. What are your best friendships and relationships? They're people who listen to you and who care about you and are there for you. That doesn't stop when you walk into your place of work. So you also want to feel like do they have my back? Do they care for me? Do they listen to me? It's the same thing and when Kelly and I do employee engagement surveys, one of the questions is doesn't my manager care about me? Am I listened to? And you will see in the written comments my manager doesn't care. My manager takes credit. My manager doesn't listen to my good ideas. So it doesn't change and it's really hard to do. Don't get me wrong, but that's really what people want and they'll put up with a lot of stuff if you care about them and you listen to them.

Manya Chylinski: 6:07

Right, Well, to dig a little deeper, Keri, why do you think we still are having the conversation about how important this is and you're still getting those kind of responses where my manager doesn't really care about me?

Keri Ohlrich: 6:20

Let me take just the first part of it. It's really hard to do. It's hard to do in relationships, it's hard to do at work, it is hard to fully listen to someone, it is hard to shut off everything and not see a text message or a team's chat, or you're distracted because something else is going on. So to fully listen is just a hard thing to do as humans, to fully listen. And then as managers, we've been told for quite a long time to separate your life. When you come in and be a little bit more robotic and don't ask any personal questions and don't get into their personal life and kind of assume we leave everything at the door and then come in as robots or like the TV show Severance, that you get severed.

Keri Ohlrich: 7:09

And then you come in and now and Kelly and I really saw the change during COVID because your personal life couldn't help but bleed through because people see your background. Oh, I didn't know you liked the Raiders as a football team. Oh, I didn't know that you ran Ironman or something like that, because you have a picture behind or a poster and now all of a sudden it's personal. And so we saw quite a few managers start to ask more personal questions, because you almost couldn't help it, because you had to know how are you feeling, how are you doing, and so there was more emphasis on it. So we've seen the shift, but it is still hard work. So it's hard work, naturally. And then we've been told for so long not to be personal in the office, so that's a hard shift for managers to do.

Manya Chylinski: 7:58

That is a hard shift, you're right, and I think about the bumpiness of COVID when we were switching over to virtual and suddenly people's kids or pets would be in the call, whereas before that was no, no, no, we can't hear your kids, we can't talk about them. To now like, oh, who are they? Tell us more about them and really, as you said, coming into people's homes in a way that we don't typically in our work environment. Well, kelly, to follow on that, what do you think we're not doing in leadership training, that is, making it in leadership education, so that we're still having to have these conversations for this kind of compassion in the workplace?

Kelly Guenther: 8:46

I think there's a comfort level that, to Keri point, is not necessarily. People Managers sometimes aren't even comfortable to ask the question, in part because there's a list of things that they have to do. The to-do list doesn't go down. We always talk about people. Leadership takes at least an extra hour of your workday, if not more, depending upon how many direct reports you have and if you're already someone who isn't maybe in love with the idea of people leadership or I don't want to get too personal because I don't want to know too much about somebody or maybe no one has ever demonstrated what that looks like for them.

Kelly Guenther: 9:21

They come with a lot of baggage themselves, and so sometimes it takes suspending the disbelief and trying something new to really see how powerful it can be.

Kelly Guenther: 9:31

In fact, just yesterday I was talking with an employee who had recently, in January, had some surgery done and was in the process of recovering, and she's, you know, back to work now and I said you know how you doing, How's your recovery? And she's like oh, it's going so well. Thank you so much for asking. And it's those little things where people will will pick up on the fact that you asked about something that you might have not even thought to remember, but you did and you remembered me and that made me feel special. And it's those little things that maybe give that employee the extra jolt to do the work, or to you know, the B12 shot to get through the day, or just the you know gosh, someone cares about me. I think managers underestimate the influence that they have on their employees, and if they only stopped and took a minute to think about what that one simple question could be, it could change. It could change everything.

Manya Chylinski: 10:20

Yes, and I appreciate you mentioning how it doesn't have to be a huge change. Just to start with. I know someone who works similar kind of things that we do and says that so many times she'll have employees say nobody has ever asked me what works for me, what I want, what I need, and just the fact of asking makes them feel cared for.

Kelly Guenther: 10:50

Yeah, and when I've, when I've asked managers why they're struggling or what makes them, what prevents them from doing it, they'll often say, well, I don't know what they're going to tell me and I'm like so what if they? What if you don't know the? You don't have to know the answer. They're telling you about how they're feeling their day. They're just asking you to listen and you don't have to come with the answer to every question. And if they do tell you something and you feel like you need to do something about it, talk to HR, talk to your manager, talk to someone else.

Kelly Guenther: 11:15

But sometimes people just really only want to be listened to and you don't have to come with a game plan, strategy of how to have a one on one and asking somebody how are you doing today? Like you don't, and I'm a planner and I'm a structured person. So if I say that, I really think that you can. You can give it a shot yourself. So, to answer your question, all the training in the world you could give it to somebody. But if a manager isn't feeling comfortable themselves asking the question, it doesn't matter how much training you offer.

Keri Ohlrich: 11:45

I just want to add two things to that. Kelly, you help one. As managers we're kind of we're taught a little bit too that we have to have the answers. So if the employee comes to me and has something, I have to figure it out. And I can do that. If it's a Microsoft Project, excel sheet type of thing, right, and it's very specific to my technical expertise.

Keri Ohlrich: 12:06

But ooh, feelings, or what if they're just sad today? Oh God, what do I do? And so that's one reason people don't want to ask too, because I feel like I have to have the answer immediately. I can't say I don't know, or just oh wow, that's tough and that's it. You don't have to solve the problem, you don't have to, you just have to listen, like Kelly said. And then I think one thing that Kelly and I talk a lot about is that self-awareness. So if you're in a bad place yourself as a manager and maybe no one listens to you, you or you're going through some hard times, you might not ask questions of someone else. If you're not very aware of your own feelings and emotions, you probably won't ask someone else. So managers have to do a lot of self-awareness. So Kelly and I work with them. You got to get right with your own baggage, as I like to call it, or what do I come in to work with in order to really listen to someone else? And that's also hard. Self-awareness is hard.

Manya Chylinski: 13:04

That is hard for everyone and it's definitely hard to go from not really thinking about that to now having to think about that and I know that people can be afraid in any part of your life to ask how are you feeling. Know that people can be afraid in any part of your life to ask how are you feeling, because none of us like difficult conversations or they wouldn't be difficult.

Manya Chylinski: 13:25

Right, Talk about having difficult conversations, and if somebody could be inside my brain when I'm having one of these conversations, the number of times I'm having to kind of step out of the conversation, say, no, you need to listen. Yes, this is awful, but you need to listen and that's a skill that I have developed and I know not everybody wants to develop that skill or sometimes have two conversations Because, as Kelly said, sometimes it can be as easy as how's your recovery going?

Keri Ohlrich: 14:00

Good and they move on. But sometimes they might say let me tell you, and then your hour meeting is, half hour of it is taken up by talking about the recovery. And so, as a manager, you have it in the back of your head saying oh, oh, oh God, we have like 15 things to do and you have to quickly be flexible, because if this person can get it out and talk to you, I guarantee, then they're like oh, okay, and then they can focus for the rest of the day. If they can't get it out, then it might hinder their ability to do their work. So, as a manager, you do have Madhya, just like you said. You have this whole conversation going behind you saying, okay, keep listening, keep listening, but the work will get done. I swear it will get done. You kind of have to trust it. I'll listen and then we'll quickly pivot and talk about what needs to get done. But you are having two conversations. You have two people in your head really, as a manager, I'm lucky if I only have two people in my head.

Manya Chylinski: 15:23

So I talk about trauma and this is something that not a lot of people hear about. So many, many people come to me to share their stories because now I'm someone who they know, they can trust and they can listen to, and I have heard some stories that are incredibly difficult, and I think about this conversation in my head like, oh, I don't ever want to remember a word of this difficult thing this person is saying, but I have to be here right now and I have to listen, and it can be quite difficult. So, kelly, we are in a unique time in terms of our political and social climate. How do you think that is impacting leadership styles in organizations?

Kelly Guenther: 16:13

Well, I think there's a lot of uncertainty and your emotions. I know my emotions can change if I choose to look at the news or not, and so I've chosen to really remove myself from looking at news, for the most part because for me it's largely depressing and I want to be the best version of myself for the people I work with and bring the best part of who I am to the table. So, for me, someone had once shared with me the expression protect your peace, and so what is it that you can do to protect yourself from things that you know are probably going to influence you in ways that are not maybe as positive as you'd like, but yet it's still being able to be present and realize that there are a lot of people who are struggling with this. If you're struggling with it, there's probably a lot of people who are struggling with that very same feeling, and I may not be bringing my A game every day. Even before all the political stuff that we have going on, it was normal for people to maybe just have a bad day. They slept horribly the night before, or their kid was keeping them up, or whatever it is. So I think that, with a tremendous amount of uncertainty.

Kelly Guenther: 17:17

Again, managers like to be able to be a point of refuge, a place of I can tell you the answer and I can give you this information and you can do what you need. I think sometimes it's being okay to say you know what, I really don't know what's going on. As soon as I have information, I'll share it with you. And showing a bit of vulnerability. I always love when managers can be vulnerable with employees, because it shows that they're just as human and they have just as few answers sometimes as we do, and so when you can expose and share a part of yourself that is vulnerable to an employee, I think it really creates a stronger relationship. The connection to manager is the number one reason why people leave jobs. Manager is the number one reason why people leave jobs, and so to be able to give yourself the opportunity to not have the answers, I think is even more humbling than it is to have the answers. So I don't know if that answers your question completely. That does.

Manya Chylinski: 18:10

That does. And Keri I'm so curious about because, kelly, you mentioned vulnerability, which I think is such a key, and it's so difficult for not just managers but for us as people. And, Keri, what do you think about the concept of vulnerability and why it's so hard, especially in a work environment, to open ourselves up like that?

Keri Ohlrich: 18:34

Yeah, well, it does go back to how we were originally trained as managers. So you're not supposed to show vulnerability, you're supposed to have the answers. You don't cry, you don't do anything. And I think now, when you mention environmental issues, political issues, kelly and I are in Southern California so we had people, clients, who all the fires.

Keri Ohlrich: 18:56

So think, if you show no vulnerability as a leader, right that, like, people are in a horrible state, they're in a traumatic state, they've lost their homes, they have no good drinking water, they don't know what's going on. And as a manager, you're like okay, we're going to get to work today, what? So, like I said, we have clients in the LA area who are absolutely impacted and it continues to impact them. And the manager one of the managers is so lovely because she just talks to people and she's like I know it's hard, this is what we're doing. We also have to provide service to our community. So how can we do that? And I guarantee those employees are like, oh, she understands, now, it sucks, it's horrible. Employees are like, oh, she understands, now, it sucks, it's horrible, but we're all going through it.

Keri Ohlrich: 19:43

And so that that vulnerability, that's a big, that's big vulnerability, but even a smaller vulnerability, like Kelly was saying, how to sharing, protecting your peace. So maybe I don't look at news during the day, maybe I make sure I'm getting good sleep. Maybe I've had managers say how's your eating? Now, it wasn't like to shame, it was kind of like are you okay, make sure you eat today. If it's a stressful day, just some reminders. And that's vulnerability too, just on a smaller scale. It doesn't have to be the LA fires, but it can be. This is how I'm. You know I'm struggling with sleep too. This is what I do. I've gotten some really great ideas on sleep and eating and exercise from just sharing that with managers, coworkers. That's vulnerability too.

Manya Chylinski: 20:30

Yes, it's amazing the things you hear and learn when you let yourself be vulnerable.

Kelly Guenther: 20:37

Yes.

Manya Chylinski: 20:38

In almost any context. I feel I've learned so much from you know, being open about what's going on with me, and I'm curious. We'll start with you, kelly, and then I'd like you to answer to you, Keri. But that makes me think about the concept of boundaries. So you know we're talking about leaders and we know they already have a lot on their plates, and then we're saying you also need to be vulnerable and you need to help, have compassion and you need to listen to your employees. Where do boundaries fall in all of this?

Kelly Guenther: 21:09

I think it's important to establish them One because if you don't model the behavior, employees will have a difficult time modeling the behavior and actually feeling comfortable doing the things that maybe will help them protect their peace. So if I, as a manager, am emailing at all hours of the night over the weekend and my expectation is and I maybe have no expectation that employees get back to me, but here we have employees who are feeling the need to email at midnight or Saturday afternoon when they should be enjoying their weekend and just having some downtime, assuming that it's not an urgent crisis. I talked to many managers who think, well, I have no expectation that the employees will get back to me. I'm like, but have you told them that? Have you said that to them? And is it something that you can't? Can there's? Is there a part of it where you can control that message? Can you delay send? Cause there's a great feature now in Outlook and a lot of other programs where you can delay send so it sends it like nine o'clock on Monday morning or something, so that you get that scratch itch of.

Kelly Guenther: 22:07

I need to get this out, but I don't have to have someone now have to wait. Do I spend time with my family? Do I just sit and do nothing? Do I go for a walk with the dog or do I answer this email because I feel the need to? So if you can establish boundaries and model it and then hold yourself accountable to it, I truly believe that employees will follow. And I think it's as simple as saying hey guys, I'm not expecting anything from you over the weekend or in the evening, unless it comes with urgent in the subject line or something. I think that's a great way that managers can model it, but it does take some time to flex that muscle and to do it. If that's not something that's inherently natural for you, I think to agree with Kelly on you have to model those behaviors.

Keri Ohlrich: 22:53

And then I was thinking too of people who maybe then they take up your entire one-on-one talking about their recovery from their injury. And then I have an issue with my kid and the entire hour now is spent and as a manager, you're like okay, I asked, I'm listening, but there's no work getting done. Uh-oh, Now, that's not. I violated this boundary of just all we do is talk about personal stuff. And so I love, as managers, make sure you have goals, because even at the end, you can still take five minutes and say thank you for sharing that with me.

Keri Ohlrich: 23:28

Remember, we still have these things and you know, maybe you don't say it quite like that, but just, oh, and how's this going with this goal? Because this is due on Friday, no-transcript. So you still have to manage performance and you still have to set clear expectations. If you can do that, then you can maintain those boundaries. If you don't, and you become your bestie and you're like but I understand Kelly, you know Kelly has trouble sleeping, Okay, so Kelly doesn't have to come in until 12. What, Wait? What? So goals and goals and expectations are you have to have that clearer than you can manage within.

Manya Chylinski: 24:28

Yes, I. Somebody told me one time that in especially in the work environment, that boundaries are compassion. Yes, and I love that, and both of what you've just said reinforces the importance of that. So, Keri, we'll start with you. What do you think is the biggest risk organizations face if they don't embrace compassionate leadership?

Keri Ohlrich: 24:52

I think they have an engagement issue, so people won't be fully engaged. So when you don't have a fully engaged workforce, they don't work as hard, they don't give extra effort, your productivity is less than if your productivity is less, you don't have as much revenue. We all have examples galore, I'm sure, of customer service. When you call and you think they hate their job, it just comes through. Versus when you have someone you think, wow, they must love working there because they just have a great attitude and maybe the culture is pretty good. So they might not see it immediately, right, they might not see it immediately, the company meaning. But if you don't have leaders who care and don't act like good kind of humans, then there will be a downstream effect you will lose customers, you'll lose clients, you'll lose revenue. It might not happen right away, but eventually you will. People just don't want to work there.

Manya Chylinski: 25:49

Right, absolutely, kelly. What are your thoughts?

Kelly Guenther: 25:53

I think the discretionary effort definitely goes down. Some people will go to the ends of the earth, but they might just say you know what? This is a nine to five job for me. I'm not really going to do any more than I can I have to. Their heart may not be into it. So where they might have given 100% in or 120% in something, a B is good enough. I'm not going to really do extra. I'm not going to go and do all of the normal things I would normally do. Maybe I'm not going to have as many meetings or I'm going to cut out at three o'clock on a Friday rather than so.

Kelly Guenther: 26:23

People make choices themselves and it comes through in the work product, it comes through in the relationships they have or don't have with people. So the performance can take a hit, unfortunately because of those very things. So again, I don't think managers really quite realize that employees look to them for everything. Whenever a message is received, whenever a message is sent from, like, a CEO, or they look to the manager. How should I respond?

Kelly Guenther: 26:50

And if you're like God, this sucks, I mean your employees are gonna take that same bent. They're like oh my God, I'm scared, I'm terrified, and that's the last thing you want to do is instill fear unnecessarily. You may not have all the answers, but you still, as a leader, need to model courage and listen. I'll get the answers for you. I'm not exactly sure what this means, but let's just continue doing the great work that we do, and as soon as I have information to share, I'll let you know. It does take extra time to think about that, though. You probably do want to go in your office and say, oh my God, have that with a trusted group of people that you can be like that with, but not your employees, because they need to see the version of you that is modeling what it means to be a true leader.

Manya Chylinski: 27:32

Right, and I appreciate that throughout this conversation we've talked about that. It's okay for leadership to not know the answer and to be honest about that, and I do see there's such a fear of saying I don't know or admitting you don't know because we're afraid of what it says about us.

Keri Ohlrich: 27:52

Yes, yes, it is so, especially the higher up you go, because you're supposed to have all the answers, yeah, and if you don't, then people like well, why are you in the C-suite? Why?

Manya Chylinski: 28:04

are you?

Keri Ohlrich: 28:04

a director you don't even know. Oh, why are you there? So I get it. It gets tougher and tougher.

Manya Chylinski: 28:11

So you guys. We're at the end of our time and I'm crushed by this because I so love talking to you and we could make this a multi-hour podcast episode, but we're not going to do that because I keep them short. So, kelly, can you tell us a little bit about your work and your company and your book, so we can make sure that people can learn about you and reach you?

Kelly Guenther: 28:39

So Keri and I founded a Brachi group now almost eight years ago Best decision we ever made. We're a boutique consulting firm, so our specialty is HR, but we also do team building, coaching, organizational development, change management, anything really affecting people and how people think and how people perform and behave and act, and all that good stuff. And Keri has written a book called the Way of the HR Warrior, which is just that how to bring your best HR warrior game to the workplace and be the best resource for both employees and leadership. And then together we wrote a book called Whatever the Hell you Want and it's really that I mean we try to keep our titles very on point which is really just living your life on your terms, busting out of the boxes that maybe yourself or others have put you in societal expectations, family expectations, maybe expectations you placed on yourself for where you wanted to be personally, professionally.

Kelly Guenther: 29:34

So each of those things and what we do together is it fuels me every day, gives me a purpose and a sense of I. I have something to offer that may be unique and different, and I like to think that every conversation I have with people is helping people see that I really do truly care about them because I do. I mean, I didn't get into this profession because I wanted to do investigations all the time and I wanted to, you know, do terminations I'd never. I hate that. I feel bad about myself whenever those are happening, but I really got into it because I want people to find the best versions of themselves and that's what our company is about, Keri can you add to that?

Keri Ohlrich: 30:13

No, I can't, because Kelly did it so perfectly and wonderfully that I don't.

Keri Ohlrich: 30:19

I was just thinking, kelly, the book, the whatever the hell you want, is really steps outside of HR, because we've learned so much from people and their struggles, because we have so many conversations with them and career discussions and what held them back our expectations, back our expectations and it's funny once that word is in our world so much, and Kelly and I again wrote this book on it.

Keri Ohlrich: 30:46

I find it everywhere. So if you look at movies and I was watching the White Lotus because I'm trendy, like everyone else watching the White Lotus and one of the characters in there was very upset and he was talking about the weight of expectations, and in my head I'm like we have a book for that. And then I had to remind myself it's just a TV show, Keri, it's okay, but you see it in so many movies and the plots of TV shows. Because I am weighed down by the expectations that others have put on us and what people think I should do, and so it makes me happy that we've at least put something out there to try to help people break through, break out of that Absolutely.

Kelly Guenther: 31:23

And to be able to work with your best friend every day too. Oh yeah, that too.

Keri Ohlrich: 31:27

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

Kelly Guenther: 31:28

Yeah, it's pretty cool. We know each other so well and, yeah, so it's really great to to truly partner with someone that is your best friend.

Manya Chylinski: 31:37

That's amazing, and it's not something a lot of people have. So no, we're very lucky, we're very lucky.

Keri Ohlrich: 31:42

It's so cool that you guys have made that work?

Manya Chylinski: 31:44

Yeah, all right, so I guess we're going to have to say goodbye. Thank you so much, Keri and Kelly, for being here and sharing this conversation with me.

Keri Ohlrich: 31:53

Thank you for having us. We love it. We Thank you for having us.

Kelly Guenther: 31:54

We love it. We love you. Thank you for being such a great interviewer, too, and showing your vulnerability. Really appreciate everything that you bring on your podcast.

Manya Chylinski: 32:01

Thank you so much, all right everyone. Thanks for listening. Thank you for listening. I'm Manya Chylinski. I help organizations build compassionate, resilient teams that thrive by creating environments where well-being is at the core. Often, people reach out to me during times of crisis or significant change, but the truth is that building a healthier, more supportive workplace can prevent issues before they arise and empower your teams to thrive no matter what challenges come their way. If you're ready to make a meaningful change, I'd love to connect. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your listening platform of choice. It really helps others find us. And if you'd like to continue the conversation, connect with me on LinkedIn or visit my website www. manyachylinski. com. Thank you for being part of this journey with me on LinkedIn or visit my website, www. manyachylinski. com. Thank you for being part of this journey with me.