124: Your Leadership Superpower Isn't What You Think It Is, with Melissa Robinson-Winemiller

What makes the difference between leaders who inspire innovation and those whose teams merely go through the motions? The answer might surprise you.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller, author, speaker, and leadership coach, reveals that empathy—far from being soft or unnecessary—actually requires tremendous courage and drives measurable business results. In this fascinating conversation, she unveils that there are actually 43 different types of empathy across eight categories, challenging our simplified understanding of what it means to truly connect with others.

"Empathy is what you feel, compassion is what you do," Melissa explains, offering a crucial distinction that many leaders miss. Without first understanding what people actually need, even well-intentioned actions can completely backfire, like the infamous pizza party solution to burnout that leaves many employees feeling more disconnected than ever.

The business case is compelling: Ernst & Young studies show organizations leading with authentic empathy see 87% higher productivity, 86% greater innovation, and 82% increased profit. Insincere attempts at empathy produced worse results than no empathy at all.

As technology and AI continue transforming how we work, Melissa argues that genuine human connection becomes more valuable, not less. "Organizations either evolve or become obsolete," she warns. "What they're risking is becoming obsolete as managers... they're not going to be the innovators."

For leaders feeling overwhelmed, Melissa offers a surprising starting point: self-empathy. Many achieve leadership positions through technical excellence rather than people skills, then struggle to connect authentically with teams. By first understanding themselves, leaders build the foundation for extending empathy to others.

Whether you're a seasoned executive or aspiring leader, this episode provides both the practical framework and compelling business case for leading with genuine empathy in an increasingly technological world.

Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller is an author, speaker and leadership coach who has conducted in-depth research into the use of empathy in leadership. She is on a mission to change the world of communication for the good of humanity.

Learn more about Melissa and her work on her website, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.

Chapters

• 0:00 The Power of Human Connection
• 5:25 Understanding 43 Types of Empathy
• 10:23 Empathy vs Compassion in Leadership
• 17:25 Hard Metrics: How Empathy Drives Results
• 23:23 Self-Empathy: Where Leadership Begins
• 28:43 The AI Challenge and Future Leadership
• 31:49 Hope in the Next Generation

Transcript

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 1:14

The more we lean into technology, the more we lean into using AI, and we're going to use it more and more. It's a great tool for what it's good for, but the more we do that, the people who can actually understand and connect with people are going to be the ones who are in demand. So organizations either evolve or become obsolete, and what they're risking is becoming obsolete as managers right, Just cranking it out. This is the machine da, da, da, da, da, da, da da. They're not going to be the innovators. They're not going to be the forerunners people are looking towards. It's going to be the people who can actually understand and connect, whether that's with the people in their organization or their customers.

Manya Chylinski: 2:00

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, manya Chylinski. My guest today is Melissa Winemiller. She's an author, a speaker and a leadership coach and she thinks and talks about empathy and emotional intelligence. Today we talked about what is the difference between empathy and compassion. We talked about why it's important in organizations and for leaders to have empathy, and a little bit about adaptive leadership. I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation, melissa. I'm so glad to get you on my podcast. Thank you for being here today.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 2:37

Well, thank you so much for having me. I mean, not only do I feel that you and I have a lot of chemistry and we we work together well, but there's so many commonalities in the things that we believe in and the causes that we put our shoulder behind, so I'm thrilled to be here, thank you.

Manya Chylinski: 2:53

Yes, I'm thrilled about that too. I love finding folks where we've got that same approach to life and business and the world around us. Before we dive in and talk about the things that you and I do, what is one thing that you've done in any area of your life that you never thought you would do?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 3:14

Get a second doctorate.

Manya Chylinski: 3:16

Oh my.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 3:19

When I finished the first one. If you had asked me, I would have said I would rather eat glass than ever go back to school. But here I am, Wow.

Manya Chylinski: 3:28

So you're actually Dr Dr Melissa Robinson Winemiller.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 3:32

Yeah, almost. I'm finishing up my dissertation now, so I'm a doctor and three quarters.

Manya Chylinski: 3:49

Wow. Well, that's a lot of work, I know, and very impressive, so we look forward to being officially able to call you Dr Doctor. You and I, as we mentioned, talk about similar kinds of things empathy, compassion. What do you think are the first steps that an organization should take to really embed those qualities into their culture?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 4:11

So I think when we're talking organizationally, the first thing to do is to really understand what each is and what they do, because people tend to have this big ball of empathy, sympathy, compassion, and they're really very different things that do very different things between human beings.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 4:29

So empathy is connection between humans. We tend to understand it as the I feel what you're feeling kind, and that is one kind. But there's actually 43 different kinds of empathy. Oh, okay, yes, this I did not know. Yep, they fall into eight broad categories. This is what my second doctorate is in.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 4:49

So if there's any doubt that I, like, am passionate enough about this to actually, you know, put my money where my mouth is, that's the proof, because I think this is that important that I wanted to dig in and study it. And these are the little things that float to the top that nobody else really knows, you know. So, yeah, 43 different kinds. They fall into eight broad categories and as an organization, they need to understand that what empathy is is it's about human connection. So it can be cognitively right. I logically understand what you're feeling. I just don't feel it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 5:23

It could be self-empathy, actually being able to understand and connect with the self before you connect with other people, which I find is missing a lot in organizations. It could be affective or emotional empathy, which is the I feel, what you feel. But the point is that first we have to have connection. Then, once you have that connection and understanding, then you can move to compassion, which is the action. Empathy is what you feel, compassion is what you do. So first you have to understand what each thing is and how each thing works and then you can really start to use it, because it can make organizations just supercharged if you actually know what you're doing.

Manya Chylinski: 6:01

Wow, okay, also just as an aside. Now I really want to read your dissertation, so please let me know when that is available.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 6:09

I would be happy to.

Manya Chylinski: 6:12

You just helped us understand. Empathy is what we feel, is what we do. What do you think leaders most misunderstand about one or the other, or that whole bundle of the concept?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 6:28

First, they think that having empathy makes you weak, that it makes you soft, that it's touchy, feely, that it's all about the feelings, and that's that's not true. The thing with empathy is let's talk about emotional empathy, right? Let's say that I'm feeling what you're feeling, and usually that's in response to a dark emotion, right? Death, despair, depression, grief, something. If I'm walking into this and I know I'm going to feel those dark emotions, that takes courage, because I already know that I'm going to be uncomfortable and I'm doing it anyway. So it does not make you weak, just the opposite. You have to be very, very strong to be able to do it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 7:07

The other thing is that they think it doesn't have a place in organizations because we're supposed to leave this at the door. Right, all feelings stay at the door. But that's also not true, because if businesses are made of people, stay at the door. But that's also not true, because if businesses are made of people, then being able to understand and connect is going to be your superpower, especially in an age of technology where there's less and less human connection. The people who can really do this and do this well are going to be the ones that are going to be set up to be the superstars of the next era.

Manya Chylinski: 7:35

What do you think is the block when people think this doesn't belong in business? I think there's historical context, but I'm curious why are we still at a place where there are people who live in this world that you and I are living in who still believe that we need to leave empathy and compassion at the front door?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 7:56

So, first of all, not all countries believe that way. This is very much an American point of view and I think a lot of it comes out of our the way we're teaching our leaders. There were two studies done, I want to say like 2000,. 2007, and they actually went into MBA programs and ranked had the students rank like 10 different attributes that they thought were important for leaders, and you know they include motivation and communication and all this. You know all the stuff that you're actually taught and for both studies, both times, in all institutions, empathy ranked dead last, and it's because we don't train our leaders to use it. Of course they're not comfortable. We don't talk about it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 8:41

Now, if you think about other countries like they start teaching what's called social emotional learning, sometimes as young as six, all the way up to the age of 16. They're learning empathy and they're learning it in a social context, so they already understand what this is and how to use it. It isn't like it's something that's forbidden as part of what they bring in as leaders. So I think it's it's. We, detrimentally, don't teach this and we kind of set it aside, even with our young kids all the way up to the MBA programs. So then, when you get into these organizations, of course these leaders aren't going to be comfortable using it. It's never been a question, right.

Manya Chylinski: 9:18

And I think you used a word that I want to dig into a little bit. You said comfortable, and I think this is human psychology. But we do a lot to avoid discomfort and I sometimes give workshops in having difficult conversations, in communicating around these topics, and sometimes that means you have to hear difficult things or you have to have difficult conversations and it is hard to have a difficult conversation, or they would just be conversations. I had a manager tell me in a completely different context, but it's something I've adopted now. They said if your toes aren't curling when you're having this conversation, you're not asking for enough. And I have had conversations that are very uncomfortable about difficult topics, emotional topics, and I feel my toes curling and I think, okay, I'm, I am getting at something that's really important and this is so uncomfortable.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 10:27

Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's just like we were talking about if you're feeling dark emotions that someone else feels, you are going to feel uncomfortable. If you don't feel uncomfortable, that means you have no empathy, and that's a whole different conversation. Now we're talking dark triad psychopath, sociopath, narcissist, machiavellians, and that's a problem.

Manya Chylinski: 10:48

Well, yes, that is another problem which might be beyond the scope of what we're talking about today.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 10:56

Yes yes, absolutely so. But if you feel uncomfortable, it's actually a good thing, because it means are involved, you do care, and that means you're in the right place, because we want people who care.

Manya Chylinski: 11:09

Yes, well, given the lack of these kind of topics in MBA programs and, I think, in general in a lot of our leadership training, there are more and more people who are focusing on this, but still generally it's not the topic. We are failing our leaders in the way that we train them, and how can we fix that?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 11:37

Well, first of all, we need to decide that this is valuable as a society, as academic institutions, as leaders. If our academic institutions are businesses, they are going to give students what they need and what they demand at a certain level. So if all of these teachers are coming, or these leaders are coming out of these big MBA programs and saying we needed training on this, we needed to know more of this, we want to be able to be empathic leaders, the schools will start integrating it. So once we value it enough to be able to say we need to know this, we'll get it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 12:16

The other part of that, too, that I think people leave out is the actionability of empathy, which is compassion. Compassion is the action, but people are like oh, I have empathy. 95 to 98% of the people have empathy. I have empathy yes, most of us do, and there's biological reasons or neurological reasons, there's environmental reasons, but we're hardwired to some degree. Some people have more than others, but it's there. Great, you have it. How do you use it now? What do you do with it? It's like having a treadmill If you don't use it, you're not going to get any results.

Manya Chylinski: 12:52

Right and I have said, probably on other episodes of this podcast, similar. I think most of us have compassion, we have empathy, we have that capacity, most of us will act on that with certain people in our lives family friends we will have empathy. Certain people in our lives family friends we will have empathy, we will support them when they need help, etc. And it just somehow stops at the door to the office in many cases obviously not every single case and I find that frustrating. And what's also frustrating is we have seen studies that show things like when you lead with compassion, when you are inclusive of the types of people that you bring into your organization, these things positively impact the bottom line that you know go, go, go top down. I'm the boss, I'm in charge, you do what I say, you show up when I show up command and control model. That still is dominant, even though we have evidence that different types of leadership can be just as valuable, if not more so.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 14:12

Absolutely, totally, I mean. So I'm a big fan on adaptive leadership, which means I'm not a transformative leader, I am not authoritarian leader, I'm not a this kind of leader, I'm not that kind of leader. I'm able to change my leadership based on the people and the situation, because through empathy I can connect and understand what my people need. If you have someone that's command and control, they're not necessarily thinking of anybody else, they're just thinking of what their leadership is. And again, I don't say that with any judgment at all the leaders that lead in these ways lead in those ways because in the past this has found them success, so they stick to what's worked. It's not that they're bad people. For the most part it's that this is what them success, so they stick to what's worked. It's not that they're bad people. For the most part it's that this is what's worked.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 14:57

So let's tie that back into the business metrics that you were talking about, because I actually have a book coming out that talks about how leading with empathy raises innovation, productivity and profit.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 15:35

And this comes from two studies that were done fairly recently by Ernst Young, where they put out surveys to employees, to leaders, to different people, looking specifically at empathy. So this was in the wake of the great resignation and they wanted to, you know, find out what was going on and why all this big shuffle was happening, and what they found out. So I don't remember the stats exactly. Remember the stats exactly. But if you actually lead with empathy, it raises, like, your productivity by like 87%, your innovation by 86% and profit by like 82 or 83%. And this study was so seminal that they did it again in 2023. And what they found is that by then, people had heard about empathy and they were starting to use it, but the people who did it insincerely found worse productivity, innovation and profit, because people can smell it and employees don't want to be part of that. So I mean, it's right there. Your hard metrics rely on your ability to understand and connect.

Manya Chylinski: 16:40

Wow, I definitely want to look up those studies because it is you know. I've had leaders at various levels say you know, yes, compassion, empathy, these things are important. Are we going to invest in them? It depends on what else we're investing in and it depends on what else is going on. So if something goes wrong and we need to fix it, then we're going to jump in Some places, and some leaders I've talked to seem a little less likely to jump in without a specific impetus.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 17:15

Unfortunately, these sorts of things empathy, compassion, that sort of thing for whatever reason, gets relegated to HR, and this is not something that a department takes care of. I mean, this is a cultural thing. This is something that's embedded from the top down, and whether the people in the top positions want to think this way or not, they are always on stage, someone is always watching. So if they lead with empathy, people will see that and the culture will drip down from the top. If they don't lead with empathy but yet they tell everybody else they should do it, it's not going to happen.

Manya Chylinski: 17:51

Yeah, it's so true with so many things that authenticity matters.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 17:57

Yes, and insincerity is obvious.

Manya Chylinski: 18:01

Yes, it definitely can be. So, talking about the study and talking about they actually have some statistics here for organizations that are trying to figure out where do we fit on the scale? What might we need to change? What are the kinds of measurements they should be looking at?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 18:21

Well, I mean, it really does come back to productivity, profit, innovation. You can look directly at your bottom line and see a difference when you're using empathy. But the first place to ask would be your employees. Look at your employee satisfaction scores. What are they saying? I mean assuming that we're in an environment where people feel free enough to tell the truth, because if you're under extreme command and control, that's not going to happen. But what about your employee satisfaction?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 18:47

I had a director that I was working with. He went and he took over his department or whatever, and his employee satisfaction scores were terrible. So he's like OK, so what do I do? And I'm like all right, you're going to have to foster connection and understanding. So what I suggest you do because if they see you, they can learn to know and like and trust you is to go and see your people every day.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 19:11

I don't expect you to have a four hour long conversation. I expect you to take 10 minutes away from your computer to walk down to where everybody's at, say hey, how's it going, what's happening? To walk down to where everybody's at say, hey, how's it going, what's happening? Do we have anything we need to talk about today? How's your baby, how's your job, what's happening? And it will do you good to get up from your computer for 10 or 20 minutes once a day. So this is a win-win situation.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 19:32

Over time, those employee satisfaction scores went up and as people started to trust him, they started coming to him for ideas about how to change the productivity of what was going on in his department, because they're boots on the ground. They know what's going to make this better. Because they trusted him to talk to them. They innovated through these different methods which brought productivity up, which brought up the profit in his department, and the kicker is that this happened within about 30 days. Because these people are already thinking about this. They are starved for someone to come in that they can trust, that they can know and they can like. So this had all been percolating for who knows how long. It just took the right conduit.

Manya Chylinski: 20:15

Wow, that is the dream to see a significant change in that short amount of time. And, as you were saying, that I think about I've heard so many people talk about. We answer surveys and nothing happens from them. Or we do these employee engagement surveys and we never hear anything. Nothing ever changes after we do it. So why bother to do it? And I think these are tied together right. If you're the kind of company that's doing the survey, because you're supposed to do the survey and not really caring about the answers the employees know that.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 20:55

Well and I think maybe this is a place to talk about dark compassion or misplaced compassion as well you have to have the empathy first. If you don't understand and relate to people and know what they need, you can't take the appropriate action right, and compassion is the action. So let's say you don't really know what your employees need, you're just going to take some kind of action that you think is what they need. The morale is down. Everybody has had enough. We're post-COVID in healthcare. So all the memes and the stereotypical. Let's have a pizza party. Everybody is angry, the morale is low. Half of them are gluten intolerant and you didn't know that these three people don't even want pizza. They don't necessarily wanna be around you.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 21:40

So you've taken this compassionate action, but without employing empathy first, and you've actually made the situation worse and worse. Yet, as the person employing that compassion, you're probably left confused. Well, I thought I was doing something nice for them. I don't understand how it fell so flat. You're right, you don't understand. Empathy is understanding and connection, and again, I say that with no judgment at all. Just that's how it works. Unfortunately, you can end up making a bigger misstep than not if you employ compassion without first employing empathy.

Manya Chylinski: 22:12

And it's so important to ask people what works for them. Yes, that in so many different areas. Just that simple question. And as adults, I understand that if you ask my opinion on something, that does not mean you're going to do it the way I want you to do it, but it does mean that I believe you have listened to different input when you made the decision, and that, to me, makes all the difference.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 22:42

Yes, yes, I run into that barrier a lot too, that this idea that having empathy means you don't have boundaries, and that's not true. These are businesses. They have got to be run, not run into the ground. You have to have boundaries. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions, that's part of it. But that doesn't mean you can't seek to understand. And one place I've actually had really good luck with leaders is by explaining. You don't necessarily have to feel it, because as a leader, if you're taking on everybody's emotions, you're going to burn out. If you employ cognitive empathy, I logically understand, I can think through this and understand. It's still empathy. You cognitively understand what's happening, so you don't have to let your boundaries down and take on all of this emotion, which it would be too much for anybody.

Manya Chylinski: 23:35

Absolutely Especially. Think managers, the number of people or you know, c-suite leaders, the number of people who are below them. You just have to have those boundaries. I know somebody who says having boundaries is compassion and I love that and we were talking in a particular instance, but it makes so much sense. So if you could implement one leadership practice, traditional or non-traditional, to really promote empathy and compassion in our organizations, like at a scale that we've never seen before, what would that be?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 24:15

Starting with self-empathy. A lot of these leaders get into their positions not necessarily because they're the best leaders. It's because they get the most contracts, they bring in the most money, they're the best technically. So they get into these leadership positions and a lot of times they know they're not the best technically. So they get into these leadership positions and a lot of times they know they're not the best leaders. But they're thrown. All these different leadership books and all these different leadership practices and it's all external. It's coming at them, coming at them, coming at them. But what they need to do is start to understand and connect with themselves.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 24:45

Okay, I'm having trouble with this. I'm not necessarily the best leader. Where do I begin with this? Who do I talk to? Who will tell me the truth, kindly, so that I can actually implement it? Because if you can't show empathy for yourself, how can you show it for anybody else? These are very motivated, high self-actualizing people who are very, very good at what they're doing, but because they expect that from themselves without self-empathy, they can tend to expect that from others without empathy, and then it propagates itself.

Manya Chylinski: 25:14

Yes, I say this all the time, but as I dig into these topics and we talk about things like self-empathy and having empathy for others, the more I'm surprised that we ever communicate as successfully as we do. I am not surprised when we have miscommunications or people don't understand. It is more surprising to me that we ever get anything done.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 25:35

Do you know about the Grammarly State of Business? Communication Report.

Manya Chylinski: 25:38

No.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 25:39

According to Grammarly Harris, last year we wasted $1.2 trillion with a T dollars in this country alone in bad communication.

Manya Chylinski: 25:49

I fully believe that and I think the number is smaller than it really is.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 25:55

It's only gone up, I mean, over the years, and with the addition of AI it's actually worse, because AI doesn't understand us. It's a pretty good facsimile, but it's not going to connect and it doesn't understand, so it actually garbles things even worse.

Manya Chylinski: 26:10

No, it's like a really eager, smart 15 year old. Doesn't understand the world at all and is just trying to make you happy. So some of the time they're going to get you a lot of the way there, and other times you're thinking what of the way there? And other times you're thinking what?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 26:34

Yes, so quick story about my journey with AI, which has been an ongoing love-hate relationship. I was trying to pull up a quote about empathy for something I was doing and I'm like, find me a quote because it's a great web scrubber. I mean it'll go through and pull all sorts of stuff like that as fast as anything. So I'm like I want this quote. I want it to kind of say this, I want it to be like this, and it's like, okay, here's a quote and it hands it to me. I'm like, okay, great, who said that? And the response was I did yes.

Manya Chylinski: 27:13

Great. Thank you, chat GPT. Here's a cookie. Now I need a real quote. I had a similar experience where I attributed a quote to Abraham Lincoln and I thought, well, that's so interesting that Abraham Lincoln said exactly the words that I'm looking for. It is certainly possible, but let me just push back and did Abe Lincoln really say that, or did you make that up? Oh, I just made it up, cause it seemed like something he would say oh, my, that's when I got, that's when I started thinking of it as just this really smart 14 or 15 year old, but whose whole job is trying to please you, that they're just going to come up with something. That's an answer. It doesn't matter if it's real or not.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 27:55

Yes, and again, if it could have intent it wants to please you, or what it doesn't, but you know if it did.

Manya Chylinski: 28:03

I know All right, so we certainly could also have a very long conversation about AI and its role here. Well, what do you think is the biggest risk to organizations if they don't embrace empathy and compassion and this way of leading their organizations?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 28:21

I think that is the biggest risk is not integrating it.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 28:25

The more we lean into technology, the more we lean into using AI, and we're going to use it more and more. It's a great tool for what it's good for, but the more we do that, the people who can actually understand and connect with people are going to be the ones who are in demand. So organizations either evolve or become obsolete, and what they're risking is becoming obsolete as managers right, just cranking it out. This is the machine dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah dah. They're not going to be the innovators, they're not going to be the forerunners people are looking towards. It's going to be the people who can actually understand and connect, whether that's with the people in their organization or their customers. So they actually stand to lose a lot, because once an organization becomes obsolete, that's it. Nobody talks about the buggy whip industry anymore.

Manya Chylinski: 29:12

That is very true. Nor does anybody think about it ever. Nope, they're obsolete, all right. So we're getting close to the end of our time and I'm curious what is giving you hope right now?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 29:29

What's going on with the younger generations? They are not willing to settle the way some of those of us in Gen X and the older have, and they're actually pushing back and saying I will find another job, I will look elsewhere, I don't have to commit to this for my life and just take it elsewhere. I don't have to commit to this for my life and just take it. If I'm being very honest, as a Gen Xer, I feel we've let the generations behind us down because we were like we were told stand up and just, you know, do what you do. And you're doing what we did at your age and you'll eventually come into yours and all of that. And that hasn't happened. And now we're standing here going what happened? Well, the generations behind us see that and they're like no, I'm not willing to do that. So that's what really gives me hope.

Manya Chylinski: 30:19

I love that. I love thinking about that. It's the kids who are going to save us, is that?

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 30:25

the message. I think they will. I think that's why they're getting such a bad rap is because they may actually be the ones to save us.

Manya Chylinski: 30:31

Right, absolutely Well, melissa, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. Before we end, please share with our listeners a little bit about what you do and who you are.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 30:43

You bet. So I'm actually an author, a speaker and a leadership coach specifically with empathy and emotional intelligence. Which is something we didn't even get to today was the connection between emotional intelligence and empathy. I do have a book. It's already out for pre-sale on Amazon. It's called the Empathic Leader how EQ Via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit, productivity and Innovation, and it will be released on July 15th. So it's coming really fast, and I did a TEDx talk about a month ago which should be going live any minutes and I would love to have people chime in on that conversation. It's actually about self empathy and self judgment, so I think it's one that I hope will have a lot of value to kind of everybody.

Manya Chylinski: 31:30

Wonderful Well. Congratulations on the book and the TEDx. Those are both big projects and they're both a great way to get your message out into the world, so I'm so thrilled for you.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 31:39

Thank you, I'm excited too.

Manya Chylinski: 31:42

Right, well, thank you so much for this conversation today. I look forward to talking with you again, that'd be fantastic, and thank you again for having me on.

Melissa Robinson-Winemiller: 31:50

It's my honor.

Manya Chylinski: 31:51

Thank you for listening. I'm Manya Chylinski. I help organizations build compassionate, resilient teams that thrive by creating environments where well-being is at the core. Often, people reach out to me during times of crisis or significant change, but the truth is that building a healthier, more supportive workplace can prevent issues before they arise and empower your teams to thrive no matter what challenges come their way. If you're ready to make a meaningful change, I'd love to connect. If you haven't already done so, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcast or your listening platform of choice. It really helps others find us, and if you'd like to continue the conversation, connect with me on LinkedIn or visit my website, www. manyachylinski. com. Thank you for being part of this journey with me.