135: Leading with Soul, with Karen Ansen

When a disability care organization struggled with high turnover and poor morale, today's guest, Karen Ansen, suggested flipping its organizational chart to put frontline caregivers at the top. 

The organization transformed its culture and operations by asking employees directly what they needed.

Karen is an employment lawyer and leadership coach who brings humanity to high-conflict employment situations. As an attorney who deals with terminations and workplace disputes, Karen creates space for authentic communication while managing legal risks. She coaches leaders through their fear of legal repercussions while addressing the underlying issues. By unpacking how organizations reach breaking points, she helps clients avoid repeating painful patterns.

Karen's wisdom comes from personal experience—she's felt the sting of workplace conflict and knows the toll it takes. "Every person you've ever talked to has a terrible war story about what happened to them at work," she notes. "And I often say to people, 'don't let this be your story.'" This perspective shapes her unique approach combining legal expertise with soul-centered leadership practices, including breathwork sessions for executives.

Ready to transform your approach to workplace challenges? Explore how compassionate leadership can strengthen your organization while maintaining appropriate boundaries. Your team deserves nothing less.

Karen Ansen is a heart-led employment lawyer and leadership coach who believes the greatest transformations—whether in workplaces or in life—begin with listening deeply and leading with compassion. With decades of experience supporting aged care and community care leaders through complex challenges, Karen brings a rare blend of legal wisdom, emotional insight, and soulful presence to everything she does.

She is the founder of Ignite HR & Employment Law and Ignite Your Purpose, two values-based businesses that blend compliance with care, structure with soul, and leadership with deep inner alignment.

Learn more about Karen on LinkedIn and by visiting the Ignite HR & Employment Law website.

Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.

Chapters

• 0:00 Compassionate Leadership Introduction
• 3:23 Karen's Unexpected Business Journey
• 8:28 How Organizations Build Compassion
• 15:30 Legal Approaches with Human Connection
• 21:23 Flipping the Org Chart Upside Down
• 26:19 Leadership Through Genuine Communication
• 29:32 Closing Thoughts and Contact Information

Transcript

Karen Ansen: 1:15

What people need is to be able to work at their absolute best and use all of their skills, but be confident that managers, that they're dealing with the leaders, that they understand them, that there is open communication and that they are able to raise issues in a way that they feel safe to do so.

Manya Chylinski: 1:38

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, manya Chylinski. My guest today is Karen Ansen. She's the founder of Ignite HR and Employment Law and Ignite your Purpose

Manya Chylinski: 1:51

two

Manya Chylinski: 1:51

values-based businesses that blend compliance with care, structure with soul and leadership with deep inner alignment, and those are the topics we talked about on the podcast today. I think you're going to enjoy this episode, karen. So good to see you today. I'm excited to be talking with you.

Karen Ansen: 2:11

Thank you so much, Manya. I'm really excited to talk to you today. I love that you gave me the questions up front so I could actually have a think about it.

Manya Chylinski: 2:21

Absolutely Well, that first question what's one thing that you've done in any area of your life that you never thought you would do?

Karen Ansen: 2:29

Oh, wow. Well, it was definitely open a business, definitely a business. So I'd always been one of those people that was driven, and I didn't know why I was driven to do all the different things that I did, and I think a lot of the time for me it came from a place of, I guess, insecurity, wanting to be somebody in the world. I worked in the government for a long time and I really felt like I wasn't living my purpose. I did that particularly because I had small children, you know, when I was young, and it was a secure job and if they were sick, I could have the day off and my husband was working he's a bit younger than me, so he took a little bit of time to get going. Yeah, so we've been married a long time, so we've built this kind of life, but it was actually 2019, which you know what happened in 2020. And so it was December 2019.

Karen Ansen: 3:29

And, with the most clarity I have ever had in my life, I resigned from my job. I was working 60 or more hours a week and they'd brought in someone into my team and placed them there really in a way that they hadn't been honest with me. So they were there to basically improve or financially improve the section that I was working. I was heading up actually I was, but that I was working, I was heading up actually I was leading it, but it was the most money they'd ever made from that particular. It was called the employee relations team, so I had a team of they weren't lawyers I was the only lawyer, they were mostly HR professionals anyway. So I just I remember this day and he took all my admin support away from me and I was traveling at the time in those days, because where I lived some days I would travel four hours for one meeting and do one meeting and travel home again In the crazy old days before we could do everything by teams and wherever.

Karen Ansen: 4:35

And so it was the most clarity I've ever had. And he said to me you have to do your proposal. So I was sitting up till nine o'clock at night doing proposals, you know, for consulting jobs and things like that, and I just said I quit. I didn't speak to my husband about it, I didn't, I didn't say anything, I just went, I quit, and I was. It was, there was no anger, it was just peace. Yeah, I just said, okay, what to now? But, interestingly, a couple of times in my life when I've made decisions like that and I, I second guess myself.

Karen Ansen: 5:09

And so the three months after that which COVID for us was a big thing in February 2020. And it was so. I came out December, january, and what had happened? When I left, they, actually they tried to sue me because they wanted me to sign a deed of indemnity to say that I wouldn't steal their clients. So that, absolutely, even as a lawyer, I was absolutely heartbroken that the company that I worked for and basically, you know, loved and worked with them closely and really, yeah, loved my job there. Yeah, I couldn't believe that they would think that little of me, that they would have to do that.

Manya Chylinski: 5:54

So yeah, wow, what a big change and came about for some interesting reasons, but I love that you felt that clarity. Sometimes, when people make that kind of decision, I'm not sure they always have that exact clarity, so that's good to hear.

Karen Ansen: 6:11

It's funny because a few times that I've had a coach in my life and they always ask me that question, because you know how people always say you hear it a lot go with your gut, go with your gut. And I never knew what that meant, right, I mean, I think my head overrides my gut all the time. I'm like, okay, the sensible part of me goes don't be stupid, don't make decisions that are going to be damaging to your life potentially. But they always ask me when are those moments in your life where you've had absolute clarity at you?

Manya Chylinski: 6:45

yeah, and those there's a few moments in my life where I was like, absolutely 100%, I know this is the right thing to do yeah, well, and I love what you, what you are doing now, what you turn this into, which is helping leaders listen and lead with compassion, and so that's the reason you and I are talking today. But what do you, just to get us started, what do you think is the most important step that an organization should take to really build in that compassion?

Karen Ansen: 7:18

What people really need to do is take stock of where they are. I think a lot of the time there's a lot of pain and people. Leaders spend a lot of time in the difficult parts of the job, which is the people leading place. They find they come to a place in their life where they're an expert, for example, in their field, and they think, oh great, you know, people are not born leaders. They're not born leaders in terms of they learn how to do it through all sorts of ways.

Karen Ansen: 7:52

But the one thing that I know works for organizations is when they pair it back, because everyone's worried about compliance, all of the things that take you into that hierarchical kind of transactional space, and what really needs to happen is people need to pair back all of the things about the organisation that aren't working and start to find emotional connections and start to find that purpose. What is it that we're here to build? Because people don't join organisations because they've got the best compliance background or whatever. They join because they're human beings and they want to be seen and they want to be heard and they want to be valued. They want to excel in their jobs. And to excel in your job, you need leaders that actually know who they are and are able to lead in that compassionate way.

Manya Chylinski: 8:48

Now it's so interesting that I think it's interesting that you are an attorney and you come at this from the perspective of employment law and that's what you focus on and you're thinking about the legal side, but you're also thinking about how to lead people and how to be brave and authentic and have compassion. And I'm so curious not that lawyers can't have compassion, but I don't think of employment law as also thinking about compassion. So I'm curious about that piece of your work.

Karen Ansen: 9:23

Well, because what I realized was at first, when I first started in this job, I was modeling something that I just didn't even know who I was at the time, and when I say that it was a version of me that I thought would get the job done. But what I realised was that when people are walking into the types of issues that I deal with I mean I guess I should explain Most employment lawyers, most employment lawyers you deal with the most difficult people and I'm known for unfortunately in some ways or fortunately in some ways dealing with the most difficult, most convoluted situations where people have have gone so off track with the and people are so frightened that they're going to get there's going to be a big legal case and it's going to be very expensive, for example, when boards and CEOs fall out or whatever. That is the kind of thing that I deal with every day, but often there's a journey that people go through to get to that point and so, whilst I will sit with the board, for example, if they're the people that have employed me to resolve it, I always bring in that. Okay, how are you feeling about this right now? How did we get here? Okay, there's always a point where I say to them I never want you to have to go through this again, so let's unpack how we got here and so bringing in that compassion, bringing in that awareness, bringing in that consciousness for that person is really important for me, and also setting them up for success for next time.

Karen Ansen: 11:17

So when I walk away from that job, there is no question that they understand their behaviours and the things, and often it's a fear of real communication, of authentic communication, of the ability to deal with difficult things and avoiding conversations that they should have had along the way. And that is the piece for me, that is the goal. That's where I can say okay, and I'm one of those people. I've always been that way. My parents used to hate it, but I can't change it. That talks about the elephant in the room and I don't know how people don't talk about it.

Manya Chylinski: 12:03

I hear you. I'm not the person who always talks about the elephant in the room, but I think I can a little more than most people. But you said the word earlier. There's a lot of fear, and it sounds like from what you're saying, from both sides when we're talking about something that has gone wrong with an employee and something that has gone wrong on the leadership side, and I think we're just really good at avoiding talking about difficult topics.

Karen Ansen: 12:33

Well, see, the thing is you push someone into an outcome right, for example. So all of the letters that right, for example. So all of the letters that I write, absolutely designed to wear away. For example, I'm dealing with a case at the moment that a very difficult aged care case, and this has been going on for years and years and years, this behaviour in this particular organisation, and I review all of the of the behaviors and then I sit and review all of the responses, all the reactions of the, the documentation around it. I pull together a letter and it's usually quite scary and the person who's receiving it is very clear.

Karen Ansen: 13:17

For example, if we're going to what they call a show cause in this country, which is show cause why we shouldn't terminate your employment, but in the background, I'm coaching the HR manager. I'm talking to the CEO about their fear around okay, what if they take a spron for dismissal? And I'm coaching them on okay, so this happened back then. We probably could have moved him on then, but now we've got someone who's very ingrained in his position and he does not want to leave and he's going to go kicking and screaming on the way out, however. So I talk about all of those things and then I go okay, because you have to work with people's risk frameworks, right. So with my clients, I've got very, very, very good clients in terms of how I at the moment, because I've worked with them so much, they know, they know what I'm going to ask them and they always go oh, here we go again.

Karen Ansen: 14:11

It's not a feedback thing, because people hate feedback. I know that a lot of the time they don't want to hear the negative feedback, but I don't do it in a way that's diminishing who they are. I always say to them I know you did the best you possibly could do. However, we're here in this situation. Let's put it all on the table and decide what the best outcome is and where's your risk framework.

Karen Ansen: 14:31

Do you want to move him on? I'm happy to help you if you do end up in court and we can resolve it, because, at the end of the day, where are you, this person's, got to go or can they stay? Can we work with this person? Because I'm also a believer that people can have redemption and I believe that once these things are all out on the table and if people show compassion on both sides and they're able to see each other and say, okay, let's try and resolve this. I think relationship, and like any other relationship in your life, can be made better through conflict, through healthy conflict and through honesty and being able to just to be able to forgive, I guess, and move on and put all the stuff behind you, because when you're in the fight, you've got no chance of doing that.

Manya Chylinski: 15:24

Right. Imagine that once legal gets involved, once there's a fear of a case or someone needs to be dealt with in a particular way, that it's much harder for people to access that compassion and understanding and empathy because there's the fear of if I say something that's going to give them more fodder for the legal case.

Karen Ansen: 15:51

That's right. Yeah, that's right. I mean, quite often we, we go to to a place where an exit strategy where you do it without prejudice, so it doesn't matter what's said in that process in terms of there's no legal standing in terms of the without prejudice negotiations but that's quite often something that I do too. I say to people where are you on the spectrum of I'm looking for a job and entrenched in my position, you know, and quite often they'll go well, I'm actually looking for work. So, you know, if I could get an exit, I'd be happy. Yes, exactly. And look, nobody, ever, ever, ever.

Karen Ansen: 16:58

Every person you've ever talked to has a terrible war story about what happened to them at work. And I often say to people don't let this be your story, don't let it be your story. It's only a small part of the story. And yes, you've got a position, you know. And yes, you feel you've been wronged and yes, you've had all these things, but learn from it and move on. You know, I know that. I know it's difficult to do because it's happened to me. I know that I've carried those stories with me for years in my life. You know about the terrible things people have done, but it's just not worth it. It's really not worth it.

Manya Chylinski: 17:33

Wow. So the work. It's so interesting the work that you do and how important compassion and clear communication and willingness to be vulnerable are. What do you think is necessary in an organization, like policies or structures that would support those kind of compassionate decisions?

Karen Ansen: 17:55

So I mean I had to think about this question. When you say policies and structures, so I think that the main thing that people need to do is throw out the idea that there's got to be control, got to be a structure in the organisation that supports the way that you do business and clear lines of communication and the way that people not everybody's, like me, that I'm not a believer in, I don't have when I've got staff, you know, I have a flat structure. It's not hierarchical in any way. I think that a lot of people what people need is to be able to work at their absolute best and use all of their skills but be confident that the managers that they're dealing with, the leaders that they're dealing with, understand them, that there is open communication and that they are able to raise issues in a way that they feel safe to do so. So those sorts of things in organisations are important. So I'll give you an example of one of the things that I've done in the past is that one of the areas that I work in is the disability sector, and it's a huge sector in this country. We have lots of organisations. It's not as regulated as aged care, but it's getting there.

Karen Ansen: 19:25

But one of the things that I did, we did a workshop with executive team and they were struggling with the communication and they were finding that the carers on the ground weren't well, they weren't staying. There was high turnover, there was all these other things going on was high sick leave, there was bullying, there was all this other stuff. And so what I said to them was was your organization is very hierarchical. You've got your CEO and your board of directors and you've got all this, this layer of upper management, then another layer. Then I said how, why can't we look at turning your organization on its head and put the carers at the top? Really, they are your bread and butter. They're the ones who are delivering the service on the ground. They're the ones making you the money, they're the ones doing. Why can't we do that and start with what is it that they need? What is it that they need from you? And they kind of looked at me and went, oh God, that's a bit. And so what we did? I started calling them. We started calling the carers and I said to them what is it that we need to do better? How can we support you? What is going on in terms of? Are you getting enough support? Are you getting what you need? What is it that the organization could do? And, yeah, they literally flipped their organizational structure on its head and changed the whole way that they operated.

Karen Ansen: 20:56

And there was a lot of what didn't fix it overnight, I have to say, but I can say that they are in a much better place in terms of because your service delivery part was the most important part and that was the piece that was being missed, because the people weren't. They weren't being supported on the ground, they didn't feel there was high, they were just a number. They couldn't get hold of anybody when they needed them. They're out in the field.

Karen Ansen: 21:23

All these things, some of the things that they told me, I was just gobsmacked that you know they couldn't get. They couldn't get hold of someone. For example, they had all these situations where they needed someone to help with medications or whatever it might be, and they'd be ringing and they'd get this, this line, and it would be someone in admin. Oh, I don't know how to help you, and it was like, okay, let's put some structures, this, let's see what it is that we need to do to change it, and I think that is compassion in action is understanding what your organisation needs and doing what that is. Whatever that is, to make sure that you live those values.

Manya Chylinski: 22:04

Right. One really important piece of that story is why don't we ask people what they need? And I think in some organizations certainly we get stuck in leaders quote unquote know what you need versus I'm going to ask what you need.

Karen Ansen: 22:26

But the thing is there's got to be trust in that asking too. There's got to be enough trust in somebody to actually say what they need, because if the organisation hasn't done enough work and that organization had it was interesting because the lady that was managing she was operations manager. I think she rang every single employee on their birthday. Every single one. Wow, so they knew her it was. I mean, I love birthdays, birthdays are my favorite thing, so I would be chuffed if someone rang me on a birthday.

Karen Ansen: 23:03

That kind of attention makes a difference it really does would be chuffed if someone rang me on a birthday. That kind of attention makes a difference, it really does. I know it just sounds so simple, but it's not. It's was really impactful. So there was, there was enough trust there for them to to come from that place of. Okay, I know you feel like you're not being listened to, but give us a chance. Give us a genuine chance. Yeah, it's funny because I was doing. I was last year.

Karen Ansen: 23:31

I was a bit, I was a bit lonely, actually because I've been working on my own for a while now. I've got a couple of contractors that work for me but I'm working on my own and I took this job and it was flying around the country pretty much meeting aged care workers about their rosters and the reason that they would employ an employment lawyer to do that is because our country in in aged care is quite unionized, and so we met with, oh, I mean, over a thousand. I think I would have met in that sort of two months that I was working. It was like I was flying everywhere. It was so funny because quite often all the people that work in the industries that I've worked in non-English speaking backgrounds they don't have, they come here because we don't have people with certain skills, so we hire a lot of nurses from Nepal and all over the place. You probably have the same thing in the US and the interesting thing was is that there was the first time anyone had ever spoken to them about their roster.

Karen Ansen: 24:38

Now a roster forms part of. I don't know how much you know about hierarchy of needs, mas hierarchy of needs a roster forms part of the very basis of how you make your money right. So it's very it's. It's the foundation on which you you work, and they were so grateful to see somebody and talk to them about it. I mean, all the things came out about how they were a grandma and they really wanted to look after their grandson on a Monday and they'd never been game to us and all their children start at 9am. But they were leaving them at the gate at 8.30 and they were really worried about them. Could they please start their shift at 9?

Karen Ansen: 25:19

I mean, those conversations they'd never had before and I mean, yeah, it was actually life-changing for me as a person because I always deal with, when I'm going into a lot of these places, you know, the worst possible case scenario someone's died, someone's been injured, there's a horrible bullying case, there's all of that stuff. But what I loved about that was that it was so human and the leaders had so much compassion in those moments because they were talking about their grandkids and they're. You know, I've got an elderly mother that I care for at home and I'm struggling to do the night shift, so maybe I could only do two, but perhaps I could pick up a couple of mornings, because she's really good in the morning. That kind of stuff. Know it was.

Manya Chylinski: 26:07

It was life-changing, to be honest, yeah well and it goes to what we were saying that you know, if you just ask people, you're going to get some really useful information. Karen, we are at the end of our time and before I let you go, can you let folks know a little bit more about your work and how to reach you if they want to learn more about you?

Karen Ansen: 26:28

Sure, yeah, so I have two businesses. One is Ignite HR and Employment Law and the other is Ignite your Purpose. And I was so excited when I, a couple of years ago, when I registered Ignite your Purpose, because for me it was all about the journey that I've been on to get to where I am, to become all of who I was always meant to be get out of the. I call it getting out of my own way. So you know, I run leadership group programs and it's really about all of the skills to be able to support you, to be that authentic leader. And I do speaking tours and things like that, mainly in aged care, but it's other industries as well. But, yeah, and I do breathwork sessions, group breathwork sessions. I did one last year at an aged care conference.

Karen Ansen: 27:19

That was hilarious, Because normally I talk about compliance and they're there with an auditorium full of people doing breath work, talking about the benefits of manifestation and visioning.

Manya Chylinski: 27:32

Oh, I love it. I love the sound of that. Well, thank you so much for sharing and thank you for this conversation. I'm so glad we got the opportunity to chat today.

Karen Ansen: 27:42

Absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much. Bless you. Hopefully we'll stay in touch.

Manya Chylinski: 27:46

Yes, we will, and I want to also say thank you to our listeners for joining us today and I hope you enjoyed this conversation and we will see you on the next episode.