136: The Kindness Bank, with Ali Uren

No one will listen to you and really embrace you unless they know that you're there with the right intentions.

Ali Uren, founder of Kiikstart, challenges conventional thinking about what truly drives workplace success.

The episode introduces Ali's powerful concept of the kindness bank--a framework where leaders make daily deposits through acts of generosity, attentiveness, and support. These deposits create a reserve from which leaders can draw when difficult conversations arise. 

Ali also explores adversity intelligence, the skill set, mindset, and attitude that allows individuals to transform challenges into opportunities while maintaining well-being. Compassionate leadership creates the conditions for adversity intelligence to flourish, providing teams with the resources needed to bounce back (and forward) from setbacks.

The conversation tackles why leadership development often fails in organizations worldwide. We frequently promote individuals based on technical prowess rather than leadership capacity, creating a fundamental disconnect between expectations and reality. Ali points to a critical gap: decision-makers often view learning and development as mere information transmission rather than a strategic business driver.

For those seeking practical ways to measure compassion in the workplace, Ali offers surprisingly simple but profound questions: 

• How kind was your manager to you in the last two weeks?
• How did that kindness show itself?"

These straightforward inquiries provide concrete data points for assessing a leader's compassionate impact.

Visit Ali's website Kiikstart.com and connect with her on LinkedIn where she shares daily content on developing people and businesses.

Go to https://betterhelp.com/resilience or click Notes on Resilience during sign up for 10% off your first month of therapy with my sponsor BetterHelp.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing Ali Yaren and Compassionate Leadership
• 4:50 The Leadership Skill Gap Problem
• 10:35 Navigating Resistance to Compassion
• 14:32 Adversity Intelligence and Workplace Resilience
• 19:12 The Kindness Bank: Measuring Compassion
• 24:40 Hope and Generational Opportunity
• 28:04 Closing and Connect with Ali

Transcript

Ali Uren: 1:14

No one will listen to you and really embrace you unless they know that you're there with the right intentions. So we can see how we're interacting with one another differently. So we have to be able to measure it and assess it. So we need to have a base point to work from. So I'd be looking at again how kind were people to me once I know how to define what kindness and compassion means.

Manya Chylinski: 1:41

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, manya Chylinski. My guest today is Ali Uren. She is the founder of Kickstart and she works with leaders and teams to make skills work harder every day. To make skills work harder every day. We talked about compassionate leadership and adversity intelligence and something called the Daily Kindness Bank. I think you're really going to enjoy this episode, ali. I'm so excited. Thank you for getting up early for our call today.

Ali Uren: 2:18

I'm glad to be here and thank you for allowing me to come into your world sometime.

Manya Chylinski: 2:23

To get us started, my question this year for all my guests what is one thing you have done in any area of your life that you never thought you would do?

Ali Uren: 2:36

There's quite a few, but I will say a personal one, and that's get married. Oh, okay, I don't know if anyone has said that before, but I didn't think that would be part of my life. And yeah, 20 years this month, we're doing, we're doing well. So yeah, I know people probably share professional ones, but from you know, I've done lots of things I probably didn't think I'd do. But yeah, that's one from my life that I don't necessarily think would be part of it.

Manya Chylinski: 3:02

Wow. Well, congratulations on your 20 years. That's great Thanks, and people share all sorts of personal and professional. So you are right in line with people being a little surprised at what they turned out to decide to do.

Ali Uren: 3:20

I still surprise myself.

Manya Chylinski: 3:22

So today we're talking about my favorite topic, which is compassion in leadership. And just to dive in and get us started, what do you think is something that an organization should be thinking about when they want to embed compassion into their culture?

Ali Uren: 3:42

There's a lot in this, but I actually think they need to start looking at how people are connecting together right. So compassion is obviously about relationship and connection, and so the first part, or one of the first things to think about, is getting real about people's reality and how they're currently connecting to one another in the workplace. That is where I'd start. As I said these. You know there's so many areas we could go, but we actually need to get a real understanding of people's current workplace reality and I start there and I would start there, building a picture around that.

Manya Chylinski: 4:17

Yes, absolutely. What do you think leaders most misunderstand about their role in creating that compassion and building an environment with psychological safety?

Ali Uren: 4:31

Yeah, I think it's spoken about a lot, but I don't think it's particularly understood by people. I think there's a lot of talk about it, yeah. So I think really and I'm just talking, obviously, from my own professional lived experience but I don't think we understand a lot about it. I even think we talk about trust a lot and don't always particularly understand what that means and how it needs to show up.

Ali Uren: 4:52

Yeah, so I think we need to understand at a fundamental all those concepts, at a fundamental level, to then be able to understand what our role is, and I think, you know, at times we underestimate the responsibility that comes with leadership as well, that people are looking at us, they're seeing how we behave, how we show up, and I think the leaders need to understand that it's a responsibility and they sit the same. Yeah, but they need to have a really deep understanding of what psychological safety is, how to create it, what trust is Even though we speak about it a lot, I don't think we always understand how to cultivate it, and I think that that's really where I think, and I think sometimes maybe we are sold a myth about what leadership is in itself too right, like I think people think the leadership and think well, I didn't, I think it was going to be this, you know. So I think sometimes we fantasize what it is rather than the reality of it as well.

Manya Chylinski: 5:51

One thing I've talked about in other episodes is how we build leaders within an organization, which is we often promote people because they're really good at their jobs, they're really good at the tasks they've been hired to do, and we promote them into leadership roles and maybe don't give them the training that they need 100%.

Ali Uren: 6:15

And I think I'd use the same analogy that you know, it'd be like a really top grade NFL player, nfl player, for example, uh, that then moved into coaching. They're completely different skill sets, yeah, and attitudes and mindsets and traits and characteristics that you need, and I think we don't. We make a lot of assumptions about what people have because of their past experiences and those assumptions and bias are very dangerous. Yeah, and I I feel for people because I've seen it, I feel for, you know, people that comes back to how we recruit and so forth but that people are right where we're putting them into these roles because of history and because they've been great in a particular skill set or particular space, and it doesn't translate without deliberate, intentional approach to developing that person as a whole, holistically. Yeah, it's a huge issue. That's, that's global.

Ali Uren: 7:07

I think we're seeing that, regardless of where, we're not bridging the gap very well. Um, unfortunately, why not? I think because the decision makers even above don't understand development. I don't think they do. You know, I'm talking a lot about people understanding things today and that's just the reality of it. Right, and I'm here to bring solutions as well, but I think people you know we've got people making decisions that are not in people and culture, they're not in recruitment, they're not in development yeah, they're not from development. Yeah, they're not from a business development background, and I come from a different sort of place with L&D. So if you don't understand the craft and the purpose of it, then you don't know where to identify where those gaps are. Yeah, and that's where we've got, I think, the disconnect between the people that are making decisions, and I also think, too, we need to be honest about what is influencing our decisions. You know, how do we decide, what's the criteria for who is in the leadership roles? I think that needs a serious revisit in how we're doing that as well.

Manya Chylinski: 8:13

So it's a little bit of a training issue.

Ali Uren: 8:17

It's a huge L&D issue. It's a huge. I like to I tend to avoid the term training and I'll use the term learning and development more. Yeah, and I think there is not an understanding of the power that L&D is not just about the transmission of information or knowledge or intel. It's actually a serious strategic business drive. It's a marketing tool discussion for a whole other podcast but it is actually a serious business driver and until we start to look at it from that perspective, we'll always undercook it right, We'll always downplay it. Yeah, We'll never really give it the serious attention and the kudos that it deserves when it is done right, when it is, you know, coming from a place of influence, real influence and impact. Yeah, right.

Manya Chylinski: 9:08

In your experience working with leaders, do you get a lot of resistance to the idea of compassionate leadership as a general concept and and how do you deal with that if you do?

Ali Uren: 9:22

yeah, look, you'll get resistance for lots of reasons, right? Not because you do. These people bring their past and their present with them, and you know there's a lot of reasons. So, for me, when I do face that and I don't take this personally, as I said, you know, my work can be in quite an interesting space at times in terms of it asks people to dig deep and put them different, and that's not always comfortable for people in the beginning, right? So resistance is part of that sometimes. So, for me, I always start with genuine dialogue and asking respectfully curious questions when I like to refer to them, and that means understanding I'm just going to go through a couple and share with the listeners is understanding what's behind resistance. I think we always.

Ali Uren: 10:09

I think a lot of people will tend to rush to try and fix that and not be comfortable and sit with it. Yeah, so it's always oh, ignore the resistance, quickly, come up with a solution quick. Oh, people are resistant, oh, I've got to move on and move past that, where I will sit in it. And I think that comes down to also being confident, and not arrogant, but confident in myself, and prepared to ask, like I said, respectfully curious questions that are different. So I'll always find out what is behind the resistance, right? So why are people feeling? What are their fears and concerns? Why aren't they embracing it? And the other thing is you know what would need to happen to remove that resistance? I do ask that question what would need to be true? How do we work together to do that? And I think that that conversation right away starts to diffuse it as well.

Ali Uren: 11:23

Um, I'm very out front around my motive and intent for asking those questions too, so people don't think I'm coming in with a particular agenda. I'm very upfront around that and and we just have very honest, adult, mature dialogue around it, because there's no point in me trying to think I'm going to know how to fix it unless I understand people's perceptions of reality, right? So asking those questions that open up that dialogue, it is a superpower and it is a skill set people can learn, and I do think we've underestimated the power of different conversations as well. So that is how I start. I always start conversations when I meet people over a really good coffee or tea or whatever they like, so I create quite a social environment at times, too, to have those discussions, and hey, that does amaze them. So I'm very mindful of the environment and while it's genuine, it is with you know, intent and planning as well too, and I just find setting up a different experience um has allowed me to move through those roadblocks as well too okay, thank you for that.

Manya Chylinski: 12:30

You talk about something called adversity intelligence.

Ali Uren: 12:36

Yes, and.

Manya Chylinski: 12:36

I'd love to learn more about what that is, and where does that fit when you're thinking about compassionate leadership?

Ali Uren: 12:44

Yeah, absolutely, and I thank you for, as I said, allowing me the opportunity to create the link between compassion and adversity, because at first it may not appear that obvious, but it is so. Compassion, I think you know it's important that we understand well what is compassion. How do we define it as well? Yeah, and compassion to me means that you, particularly in the learning, development and building a pain perspective, is that we allow our teams to have the resources, the capacity, the capability to be able to fight smart, and compassion is about making sure that your team, you know, as I said, has the environments and the mindset and relationships to respond to when things don't go right. Because they don't. Yeah, we have projects that fail, we have people we don't like, we have roles we went for. It never happened.

Ali Uren: 13:41

You know, we are living in complex times and so compassion for me, and particularly in the L&D space, is making sure that we allow our people to have the opportunity to be able to not just bounce back but bounce forward from those challenges in the workplace and diversity.

Ali Uren: 13:58

Intelligence is a skill set and a mindset and an attitude that allows people to use gaps, threats, risk, challenge problems differently and constructively to create new opportunity and in the process, to be able to look after their well-being as well and make different decisions, be it in their personal life, but also in business. So it's a space that I've worked in really since day one, 18 years ago, when I created the business, and it's something we know a lot about EQ and IQ but I'm sure is that third missing piece in the mix and is really the game changer for leaders and for teams in terms of being able to keep pace and respond to what is happening in our workplace as well and life. You know this is more than just the workplace. This is about allowing people to show up as they wish.

Manya Chylinski: 14:55

Right, this is more than just the workplace. This is about a way of paper sharpness, right. Well, again, I've had so many conversations of. The workplace is the same as our life like there's an artificial designation between there's personal things and there are professional things, and in some respects, yes, there certainly are, but in as human beings, we just bring our full selves to both of those arenas and that's an artificial distinction to be talking about that something would only happen in the workplace.

Ali Uren: 15:23

Yeah, 100%, 100%. And I think, because of what we're seeing and the ways in which we're living, some of the pressures that we're seeing externally, it is no longer realistic to say, well, you door, do you know what I mean? Like you can't, you just don't right. So how do we um create an environment where and I do talk about workplaces being hangings, fagons of creativity and and also safety, but of support, and I think leaders have a real responsibility and colleagues have a responsibility to one another to create those tables and while also meeting commercial outcomes and I think that's critical but I do think, and I've seen some amazing personal outcomes for people because of the skill set that they have built, they're working together and doing their work different.

Ali Uren: 16:10

Those skill sets, mindsets, attitudes, have had an impact back on how they live their life. And so, therefore, you can see it's a circle, right, because if I'm living better, if I'm healthier, be it physically or mentally, in my relationships and so forth, then I show up differently back in the workplace too, right? So, back to your point, and we've seen this right. We've seen leaders who have been under immense pressure take the learnings around aq and apply it to their life, which in turn has been, you know, and for some it will be drugs and alcohol, for others it would be weight and lifestyle and diet, um. But that has positively impacted on how they're showing up the decisions, they're making their connections and their relationships back with their people and we can't deny that they are left.

Manya Chylinski: 17:00

Sometimes I hear the criticism that there's no way to measure compassion or these so-called soft skills, which I reject that term. But what metrics or indicators do you think can really measure whether a culture is truly compassionate?

Ali Uren: 17:24

Yeah, that's interesting, and I think it comes back to measuring what compassion is. Yeah, and compassion will mean different things for different people and different organisations as well too. So I think if I was saying, how do I measure anything and I do a lot of measurement around impact and people always say, oh, it's hard to measure that well, no, no, it's not if you know, but when you know how you can do it. So there's one question that I heard actually I can't even remember. There was a ce CEO who owns a teeth cutting store in the UK. That is a bit of a legend in the UK. I cannot the name escapes me, but he was interviewed and talked about what matters and who they look for in terms of leadership, and my question, when they do a review on their team, is how kind was your manager to you in the last two weeks?

Manya Chylinski: 18:11

Oh.

Ali Uren: 18:12

Right. So I wish I could. If it comes to me, it comes to me, I'll absolutely share it, but it stuck with me. How kind was your manager or your leader to you in the last two weeks? Right? And that is the one question that they ask to measure how their leaders are largely performing and how did that kindness show itself? And we need to start asking you know, measuring leaders by it, but then measuring each other by it as well too. And I think once we understand what compassion means because we have to get clear around the definition of it then we can start to map back against that criteria too. Right, so we can start to measure it.

Ali Uren: 18:51

I definitely think how we can measure and I mean we can either do that through 10 discussion, depending on the nature of the conversation, or through one-on-one as well too. That's why leaders have to be able to build what I call the kindness bank. A kindness bank, if I can just talk about that, and I'll come back to measuring it but the kindness bank is a bank that leaders need to make daily deposits into, and that will be through actions, behaviours, making space, making time for people, being generous. I think generosity is something that we can measure and it's critical and generous in how they show up, how they share their intel, their wisdom, how they're developing their talent either through coaching or mentoring, and how they're developing their talent either through coaching or mentoring, and how you make mistakes. But the kindness bank is something that I think about, where I'm making daily deposits in that bank. When the time comes and you're having those challenging conversations, you're having to deliver news that maybe people don't want to hear you withdraw from that you can take from that kindness bank because people know who you are. There's a great quote that I love that says don't tell me what you know until you show me that you care Again.

Ali Uren: 20:02

Another one I heard driving my car about eight years ago. Truly, I did on the radio and I can't. It was an interview and I'll never forget it and I just let's start there. No one will listen to you and really embrace you unless they know that you're there with the right intentions. So we can see how we're interacting with one another differently. So we have to be able to measure it and assess it. So we need to have a base point to work from.

Ali Uren: 20:30

So I'd be looking at again how kind were people to you once I know how to define what. You know what kindness and compassion means. How did people show up for you? Yeah, were people generous in terms of helping you, providing resources to you, providing intel and support to you. Did you have a query? Did you have a challenge? Did someone make time and space to listen to that? Yeah, even compassion is asked. A little different question yeah, even. Not just feedback, but the type of advice that people gave you. Did the leader? What sort of valuable advice did you get in the last two weeks? Did your colleague share something with you that made the difference to how you did the role?

Ali Uren: 21:07

Yeah, and so for me, they are ways that I would be measuring how compassionate we are because, as I said, compassion is more than there. There have a cup of tea. You know compassion is. Is it, is it? You know it's, it's, it's a real strength. Right, and I said I hate soft skills. It's power skills, they're human skills. These are the ones that, as I said, we make space for to listen to someone where it's challenging. Compassionate also means if one of your team members is struggling personally, have you got the ability? I'm not saying you need to fix it, because you shouldn't do that, because there are some areas where we need to be the conduit between ourselves and professionals. But have you created a space where, if someone is struggling with mental health, for example, that you can act as a conduit and help, support them to be able to get that, that expertise as well, too? So compassion is making space for truth, telling um and and making sure that people have input and influence over what, what they're doing right.

Manya Chylinski: 22:12

It's so interesting to me that somewhere somebody put the notion in our head that being human and having human emotions and reactions is soft and has no place in being in business look for me.

Ali Uren: 22:30

I've always put the soul and the personality and it's made the difference to people coming back and wanting to work with me right like through really challenging, um, you know, stretch learning and development. Um, they'll come back because it's it's enjoyable and it's soulful and it's real, and we talk about real things, you know, and I think compassion is about sharing yourself as well too, and we talk about real things, you know, and I think compassion is about sharing yourself as well too. Yeah, we talk about vulnerability a lot, but what is that right like it's we? We must show up where relevant and appropriate, but show ourselves too, you know.

Ali Uren: 23:00

Generosity is about, uh, speaking, mentoring, you know, around our stakes as well, as is what is great and what has worked well, yeah, but that's that sharing of intel that makes the difference, you know, that allows someone to do different. That is, for me, in developing with other people. That is compassion, that is care, and I think you're right, I don't get it and I think, more than ever, we need, really, we need, soulful workplaces. We need workplaces that keep their eye on the commercial prize and, at the same time, are doing good with people and creating those environments that are actually creating places of wellbeing. And I'm also here to challenge that notion that we can't do both, because we need to do both and we can Right.

Manya Chylinski: 23:48

Well, I love your concept of the kindness bank. It's essentially building that trust and building that relationship and like thinking of it that way that you're making deposits into your bank.

Ali Uren: 24:01

Making deposits into the bank and therefore, as I said, when you might be the bearer of not such great news, people understand who you are and so that might be an intent and therefore you're minimizing the negative fallout that can come with that. But if you have not made deposits, you don't have much to draw from Right, and that's what we're seeing as well.

Manya Chylinski: 24:24

Ali, we are getting close to the end of our time and I wish we could go on for much, much longer. But I'd love to ask you just what is giving you hope, right?

Ali Uren: 24:35

now I'm always hopeful. I think that's the superpower. No, it is because and I think that comes back to being out and just reset, and hope for me is that I just think the possibility of what we can do when we start to develop our people in different ways, what the outcome and the impact can be. I'm hopeful that the world will start to not be coming from such a fear-based place and that you will see those opportunities. I think it's slow, but I think we're moving there. I think for me, it's hope to be able to create, to continue creating, and I'm hopeful that, yeah, that we will see when we, as I say, when we learn different, we'll do different, and I think that, with different generations also coming through, I think we have time to. You know, there's an opportunity to reset as well.

Ali Uren: 25:26

So I think it's a mix. You know, we've got five different generations now in the workplace, almost both here in Australia and the US, and I think I'm hoping that when we facilitate that generational difference in a way that's useful, that we're going to really start to see some real creativity and different thinking come through. And I'm hopeful and I want to be part of nurturing that too, because I think we're going to do some really different stuff. So I'm hopeful and I want to be part of nurturing that too. We have to do some really different stuff, so I'm always hopeful. You know I have my moments where I'm up one slightly, but you wouldn't be in this game if you weren't hopeful that we can do so much more and be part of the solution.

Manya Chylinski: 26:04

Absolutely Well. Thank you for sharing that and before we log off, can you please tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself and how they can reach you and learn more about you?

Ali Uren: 26:16

yeah, absolutely so. I've been on a mission for the last 18 years through the company kickstart um, k-double-i-k-s-d-a-r-t. To actually work with leaders in terms to make skills work smarter. So I make sure that when we are upskilling our people, that we repurpose wisdom and skills back into the business for new opportunity. So, for me, I make sure that the organisations that I work with they own the outcomes and the impacts so they become independent and are able to, like I said at the beginning, fight smart regardless of what is coming their way. So that's me in a very sort of nice little box.

Ali Uren: 26:55

I'm a prolific writer and creator on LinkedIn. I show up every day, most days during the week, with original content around how to think different about how we develop not just our people but our business and how the two connect together. So really focusing on entrepreneurial concept and thinking, but really with building that adversity intelligence skill set so that we think different around gaps and threats and risk and do something constructive with it. So please connect me, send me a message, follow me, get involved. I'm going to be doing something exciting soon which I'll share with you around a global. Send me a message, follow me, get involved. I'm going to be doing something exciting soon which I'll share with you and you around a global affinity group, which will be exciting, so I'd like to put that out there and have people join me. But yeah, please come be part of the conversation and then, ultimately, we can create those solutions as well too.

Manya Chylinski: 27:49

Oh, thank you so much for the work that you're doing and for sharing, and I'll put links in the show notes for folks. And thank you again for joining me, ellie, it's been a lovely conversation.

Ali Uren: 28:01

Great to be part of it and thank you for getting me in. My brain is now awake at 6.30 in the morning here in Australia and I'm very grateful for the opportunity and I hope our paths will cross again soon.

Manya Chylinski: 28:11

Excellent, and thank you to our listeners for listening to this episode of Notes on Resilience and we will catch you next time.