143: Self-Compassion as a Superpower, with Massimo Backus

What if the key to becoming a better leader isn't about mastering others, but mastering yourself? 

When executive coach Massimo Backus joins me on this episode, he shares a revolutionary idea that's changing how we think about leadership: self-compassion as a leadership superpower.

Most of us have been conditioned to believe that being hard on ourselves drives success. We push, criticize, and demand perfection, convinced that self-compassion would somehow make us weak or complacent. 

Yet research tells a completely different story. People who practice self-compassion are actually more resilient when facing adversity, more accountable for their mistakes, and better at learning from setbacks. \

Massimo shares how our relationship with ourselves influences every other relationship in our lives, including how we show up as leaders. 

"I am a human being and that is enough." This simple yet profound statement offers a new foundation for leadership—one built on humanity rather than superhuman expectations. What would your leadership look like if you approached yourself with the same kindness you offer your team? How might your organization transform if psychological safety started with how you treat yourself?

This conversation offers a refreshing perspective that could change everything about how you lead—starting with how you talk to yourself.

Massimo Backus is a speaker, author, and executive coach who built his practice based on the radical idea that self-compassion is a leadership epiphany. His book is Human First, Leader Second.

Website: https://massimobackus.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/massimo-backus/

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Chapters

• 0:00 The Impact of Self-Compassion
• 5:20 Self-Compassion: The Lowest Common Denominator
• 12:09 Breaking Free From Old Coping Mechanisms
• 19:07 Trauma and Workplace Pressure
• 27:06 A Declaration of Self-Compassion

Transcript

Massimo Backus: 0:01

People that practice self-compassion, have a regular practice of self-compassion are more resilient in the face of adversity. They are more likely to take accountability for their mistake, misgivings or contribution to a negative situation.

Manya Chylinski: 0:19

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, Manya Chylinski. My guest today is Massimo Backus. He has built a successful executive coaching practice based on the radical idea that self-compassion is a leadership epiphany. He's also the author of the book Human First, leader Second. We talked about compassion, leadership and the importance of self-compassion. You are really going to enjoy this episode, massimo. I'm glad you and I are talking today. Thank you for being here.

Massimo Backus: 0:56

Yeah, me too Pleasure.

Manya Chylinski: 0:57

Before we dive into the topic, I'd love to hear from you what is one thing that you've done in any area of your life that you never thought you would do?

Massimo Backus: 1:09

Well, that's a fun question. If I'm being honest, I think there's been many points in my life where I've dreamed a lot smaller and surprised myself, but I think most recently, you know, is publishing a book. Writing and publishing a book I mean, as a kid I didn't even read books. I'm dyslexic and it just wasn't even a part of my identity books, or reading or talking about them or anything like that accomplishment. I think many, many past versions of myself would be blown away and pleasantly surprised by what we've accomplished. What we've achieved.

Manya Chylinski: 1:52

Oh, that's great to hear. Writing a book is an amazing accomplishment and I like how you phrased it. About thinking about a time when you dreamt smaller than just was a reminder to me to about dreaming big and going for the tough calls, going for the things you never imagined you could get the freedom that you have to find at some point to be able to dream big.

Massimo Backus: 2:15

But I've also found that there needs to be some self-acceptance when you realize maybe I don't want that anymore and to let those dreams go and not see that as a as a failure. But you know you're just in a different place in life and maybe it no longer interests you, or maybe you now have a better understanding of what it would take to accomplish that and it doesn't match up with your priorities. So yeah, I I think it's easy to talk yourself out of having big dreams Pretty easy to do that.

Manya Chylinski: 2:50

Yes, it is easier than I wish it would be sometimes. So you and I were talking about compassion today and compassion and leadership. And just to get us started, why is it important that our organizations or our workplaces, that we, even be thinking about the topic of compassion?

Massimo Backus: 3:11

I think that the topic of compassion in the workplace and organizations is something that's been well-traveled over the last number of years, and thank goodness it is necessary by definition, at least in its current form. And historically, the organizations that we work in and spend so much of our time in are defined by the people in them. They are an organization of people. That is what makes them exist. And even if you look at it in the context of the business, the business operates because of the people that are doing the work to make that happen and so because it is defined by people, compassion is to not think about it as a nonstarter, because compassion is about recognizing our humanity. So you look at, an organization is defined by people. That means that it is, by definition, humane.

Massimo Backus: 4:07

It's not mechanistic, it's not a machine. We can only optimize to our limitations, and we do have limitations as people, as much as we hate to recognize that. But that is part of our humanity. A limitation we have is our mortality. We're limited, we're all going to die. These are just truths that we accept, and yet we always try and optimize against those in this very mechanistic fashion.

Massimo Backus: 4:30

And the recognition that compassion needs to exist in organizations is just a recognition and acceptance of our humanity. That's in it. What I think is often missing in those conversations around compassion is self-compassion. Not only need to recognize humanity in other people, but I think first and foremost we need to be able to recognize it in ourselves, because then we are coming from a place of humanity, we are coming from a place of empathy, we're coming from a place of understanding and curiosity and connection, and these are all buzzwords that we talk about, but it's just noise in the system if we just talk about it and we're not practicing it. And at the end of the day, we're really most responsible for compassion towards ourselves first and foremost. Right.

Manya Chylinski: 5:17

Now, in your work with your clients, do you find that that self-compassion piece is difficult for people?

Massimo Backus: 5:31

Yes, it's incredibly difficult for people. People can have a pretty visceral reaction to the idea of being nice to myself yuck or going one step further, which is where I'm oriented, which is not just liking yourself but loving yourself. Gosh, that is very uncomfortable. It can make people's skin crawl. I'm a certain leader. I'm happy to do that for the people, but I'm not sure that I'm worthy of that same treatment. And it begs a really powerful question, don't you think?

Manya Chylinski: 6:00

Yes, which is why, yeah, yeah, I've had experiences of utter lack of compassion for myself, and one thing I have done when I've caught it, when I've recognized that's what's happening, is I have said to myself those words. I just said about myself, to myself, in my head. Would I say those to my best friend if she came to me with what's going on? And the answer is always oh, no, of course I would not speak to her that way. So why do we speak to ourselves that way?

Massimo Backus: 6:39

You wouldn't say that to a friend, but you also wouldn't even think it. If your friend made a big mistake, the first thought would have been you wouldn't think you dummy right. But for ourselves, that's our first snap judgment. So the first indication that we're in need of self-compassion is if you can answer the question, that is, if I treated others the way I treat myself, would I have friends? For most people the answer is no. And if the answer is no to that question, then okay, we have an obligation, we have a responsibility, we have a duty and an opportunity to learn how to do that.

Massimo Backus: 7:13

And one of the things that makes it very challenging is that we're not aware of it in the first place. We're not aware that we're doing it because we've always been doing it, and when you're so used to talking to yourself in one way, it's your norm, it's just a Tuesday, so it's hard to become aware of it. And then you have to recognize that there's been this counterfactual belief that is, my success is linked to the fact that I'm hard on myself, that I'm successful because I push myself and I'm hard on myself and I don't rest on my laurels because I'm perfectionistic, because I want more, because I strive for excellence, and the way I do that is by being hard on myself, which is a myth, but again it feels like a truth to us because it's probably been there for a long time and has gone unexamined.

Manya Chylinski: 8:05

Right. I think that's the key those last two words gone unexamined and it is possible to push yourself and achieve and still have self-compassion right.

Massimo Backus: 8:19

Oh, manya, this is the exciting thing about self-compassion it seems to be one of the least known about psychological constructs and yet if you look at the evidence, it is so powerful. People that practice self-compassion, have a regular practice of self-compassion, are more resilient in the face of adversity. They are more likely to take accountability for their mistake, misgivings or contribution to a negative situation. There have been studies with married couples where it ends in divorce. Those couples that practice self-compassion. Each party was more likely to come to the table and say here's how I contributed to this marriage not working out. Just think about that for a moment. That's powerful. That's not pointing the finger and saying it's your fault. Obviously, you may have those feelings, but it's also saying but how did I contribute to this? Not in the way of beating myself up because it's all my fault, but it's a relationship and there's always. You know, every part in your relationship contributes to that relationship.

Massimo Backus: 9:20

When it comes to learning, and someone's ability to adapt and learn from setbacks is increased when there's self-compassion. When it comes to collaboration in organizations, it creates a greater degree of psychological safety because someone recognizes that they are not defined by the event, by the mistake, or their idea wasn't accepted in the discussion and therefore they're not worthy of the team accepted in the discussion and therefore they're not worthy of the team. They're able to recognize that that moment is not defining of who they are, their quality, their contribution, and it goes on and on and on the benefits of this, and I think that it is the lowest common denominator of effective leadership. It enhances our capacity in all ways, but it is all about our relationship to ourselves. It's not for anyone else's consumption.

Massimo Backus: 10:09

You know what I mean, and I think that's the part of it that that feels antithetical to what it means to be a leader or what it means to be in community with other people. There's myths around it that it's selfish to be self-compassionate, or there would be a form of self-pity. And it's not based on the research of it's actually building resources and accountability, so that it's not a sign of weakness. It's actually a tremendous sign of strength, which I also think is evidenced by the fact that it's very difficult to do so, you know, for people that are like well, I need to struggle a little bit to know that I'm working for something that's meaningful. Try and try and be kind to yourself when you've made a mistake. It's not easy and it will test you in new ways.

Manya Chylinski: 10:53

You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking we have such a hard time accepting this piece of who we are, and it's who we all are and it's how we're wired. Why is it so hard to have those thoughts about ourselves, to be compassionate, to be fair to ourselves?

Massimo Backus: 11:16

That's the trillion-dollar question, and there are commonalities, but it's unique for each person and the commonality is that it comes down to some source, some sense of I'm not enough. That looks different for each person. That story was created differently for each person, based on their upbringing and their family, and it could be some form of trauma for some people and you know, I think that real serious trauma. And then I think there's being human and living your life can be traumatic, right, I just think it can be hard, just that alone, even if everything's going your way. But it stems from that I'm I'm not enough, that that those moments of rejection, those moments of not being seen, heard, loved, appreciated in times when you need it. And so we create mechanisms for ourselves to achieve those things, because fundamentally, all people want to be seen, heard, appreciated and loved. All of us. We go about it differently, but it shows up in pretty consistent patterns, because what we're looking for is what is the behavior? How do I need to show up in the world? Who do I need to be in order to get that? Is that I do I need to be people pleasing? Do I need to be controlling? Do I need to be perfectionistic? Do I need to be the smartest person? Do I need to be in order to get that? Do I need to be people pleasing? Do I need to be controlling? Do I need to be perfectionistic? Do I need to be the smartest person? Do I need to be quick-witted and funny? Do I need to be a wallflower and not speak up? What is it that you learn to do as a coping mechanism? And I call them our well-intentioned, misinformed protectors. Well-intentioned, because these mechanisms develop to help us out. They're trying to help us, give us what we need, which is this sense of being seen and appreciated. They're misinformed because these oftentimes develop on our children, yes, and so you've got a 10-year-old who's come up with this mechanism and it's pretty effective. It works. It works all the way into adulthood. It works, until it doesn't work and we realize it doesn't work because the marriage fell apart, the job didn't work, you got feedback from your team that you're not showing up the way that you think you are, and then we get confronted with reality that, oh, this is a pretty outdated model that I'm operating with, but it's what I've always known and it's never been examined, because it's what I've always known and I've got a career of success to say that it works. So why would I let that go? The devil, I know.

Massimo Backus: 13:40

For this other idea of being kind to myself. Well, that just does not sound like a recipe for success. It's how people tend to look at it on its surface and, by the way, I think it's really important that I am not some genius who discovered this. I mean, first of all, this idea of self-love and self-compassion has been around for millennia and is deep in Eastern traditions. But my discovery of it came because I was a cynic of it and skeptical of it and my old coping mechanism stopped working for me and I failed and I felt bad and I got to a point where I had to surrender all of my judgment and my high-minded ideals of what I thought it meant to be successful and say well, maybe the self-love thing is worth exploring because everything else I've tried isn't working.

Manya Chylinski: 14:32

Right, as you were talking, I was realizing what we need Now. Not everybody who in the workplace, or managers or leaders goes to business school, but what we need in the MBA programs is a mandatory course called you Are Enough, where we help people see that and you're right, these are patterns that develop as we are learning to make our way through the world and if they're not serving us and it's important to recognize them. So, yeah, I want to see that class in MBA programs.

Massimo Backus: 15:08

Me too. Me too, I'd like to see it for elementary school students. I wish it didn't take me so long to learn this. I wish that my clients don't come to discover it themselves in a point of crisis or pain, like what would be possible if it was something that they always knew how to do and you're never done. There is no finish line. There's no day that you wake up and you're like well, I don't have to do that anymore. I mean, it is an ongoing practice and there are periods of time that I've got a great relationship with myself and there's periods of times where I don't, and I just have to keep coming back to it. But I also know that it is a relationship. I back to it, but I also know that it is a relationship. I've been married for 16 years. I love my wife dearly. It takes a lot of work and it will continue to, and I don't mean work like it's labor. I mean it takes effort because I care, and the relationship with ourselves is no different and yet is often an afterthought.

Manya Chylinski: 16:09

Yes, as if we all suppose it's just supposed to work.

Massimo Backus: 16:16

Exactly. Yeah, it's just supposed to be that way. And then we get those glimpses where it's like, oh, I'm having a good day, or things are going my way. You know that feels great. But oftentimes the question we should be asking ourselves is are things going my way because of my environment? Because the external conditions are giving me this validation? I got the promotion. People compliment me on this. These things are going well for me, by the way. Those are wonderful things. But what would it be like if you didn't need it? You didn't need it. What would it be like if you were liberated from the need of external validation from others because you had a practice to give yourself the validation and the love and support that you need? Right? Have you ever given somebody like a really thoughtful, meaningful compliment or form of recognition and they just kind of like brush it off?

Manya Chylinski: 17:06

Yes, isn't that? Interesting yeah, because you know that people want to hear that but they can't take it. No, it is. It can be very difficult, and I myself have struggled. I'm better at it now, but it was sort of oh yeah, great Thanks. And now on to our next thing. Thanks for saying that. Good, Now what else?

Massimo Backus: 17:34

Or I know something I would do, which is quickly say something nice about them, to just to make it even. And then it's not about me. Yep, yeah, and yet that's a moment where you're being seen right. So the very thing that we want and we get it. We're not comfortable having it.

Manya Chylinski: 17:46

I love human behavior when we just at on the abstract level, thinking about the things that we need and respond to and don't respond to and all of the things that we're talking about. It's so fascinating how we sabotage ourselves sometimes. Now you mentioned external factors and earlier you said the word trauma. So that is, one can be fully self-compassionate and then have something happen that brings a trauma or is a traumatic incident, and people don't like that word trauma. I know that in my own work because that's something I talk about and it's really a trigger for people. But it is a real thing that happens. So how do we balance that? What do we do about that?

Massimo Backus: 18:38

Well, when you say that people don't like trauma and it's not that I disagree, but what do you hear about it that people don't like? Because that's what I get really curious about what does it mean to people that they don't like?

Manya Chylinski: 18:50

In a couple examples I'm thinking of, people have replied with well, I've never experienced a trauma, or we don't have any trauma in our organization, and yet I know from what we've just been talking about that that's not true, that something has happened that is clearly traumatic, so it's I think it's a defense mechanism.

Massimo Backus: 19:41

Yeah, I think it's. It's a defense mechanism. I think that maybe trauma has an association of weakness or a victim and again, some people who have been through trauma are victims. I think we need to kind of separate. There's the real kind of capital T trauma and then there is just the trauma of going through life If you are in a very high stress environment.

Massimo Backus: 20:10

The other day I was just driving in the car with my family and I was partially in a cross in a crosswalk and it was like really really busy downtown area. I didn't know exactly where I was going, the light wasn't turning and some guy crosses the street and he like slams on the hood of the car and you know, and, like you know, flicks us off. I had a visceral reaction to that Right. I felt that in my body Now I don't need to go to a therapist as a result of it. I wouldn't say that I was fully traumatized, but in that moment there was like wow, that was a visceral reaction of my fight, flight, freeze response was triggered right. Those are the types of moments that happen to us. That's not unique to me Maybe the being in the crosswalk part that was bad on me but my point is, those types of things can happen all the time and they can be these little trauma-type triggers.

Massimo Backus: 20:59

Then you put somebody in the organization and you say, okay, now there's a power dynamic, this is your livelihood, this is how you pay your bills. You have a manager. This person has authority over your performance. They're the ones that are going to be saying whether you got a promotion or not, or whether you get your names on the list for the next set of layoffs, and there's a lot of pressure in that dynamic. And then you say there's expectations. And now you're being compared to your peers and you're in an environment where maybe you don't feel like you can be fully honest about everything that you're feeling. What sort of pressure cooker does that put in people? So to try and say that there isn't any sort of trauma in that, it's getting hung up on the word trauma and less like.

Massimo Backus: 21:38

Well, what is the experience that people are having? Yes, and that's a common experience with those that are spending their weekends, you know, ruminating and having a conversation with somebody at work, but not actually having the conversation with them, and they're, you know, they're at their dinner table with their family and they're ruminating about some work thing. This is a visceral thing. Your cortisol levels are elevated as a result of this and that would map to trauma responses. So unfortunately, we live in a time, mania where words can just the definition of them can kind of be co-opted and used for a whole variety of things, and then we lose the plot. And so I typically, when I'm working with people I don't like let's make sure we're talking about the same idea and we can call it whatever you want to call it. If it doesn't work for you, that's fine, but let's, let's describe it so we know we're still talking about the same thing and let's put it in language that works for you Well, and that gets at something.

Manya Chylinski: 22:38

I think about a lot and talk about a lot, which is how important the role of communication is, right, making sure you're both on the same page. You're talking about the same thing, whatever words you're using, because if I say trauma and you think that has to be violence and disaster, but I'm thinking it just means like kind of what we were talking about, the sort of everyday experiences that we have, then we're already coming at it where we don't even have the same understanding.

Massimo Backus: 23:09

Yes, and it makes me think of how the people that use different terms can sometimes misuse them. As somebody who spent my career working in leadership development, there is no shortage of tools and concepts out there, right? I have seen many of these tools and concepts get weaponized. Take a personality assessment like DISC. Okay, someone says that they are a high D. That means that, oh, that says that I'm really direct. That's what my assessment says. So they go into a meeting and they're like a bow in a china closet and they're just kind of firing off directives and they say this is just me, because I'm a high D.

Massimo Backus: 23:46

It's like well, just because your profile suggests that you might be direct does not give you permission to be an asshole, so you're weaponizing it, and I see this happening time and time again, and it's the same is true for self-compassion, and so I do think that when people are saying this is traumatic for me as a mechanism to separate themselves or as some sort of like form of manipulation within a relationship, I think that's really troublesome, right? So we have to be able to be accountable for him. How are we using this? And it is no one's place to say what is traumatic for another person. You know, we need to keep that for ourselves, but we do need to be very careful about how we label that, as if someone else is the cause of it. Right? Yes, we have to own our feelings. Is what I'm saying.

Manya Chylinski: 24:33

Yes, yes, I come from a place in my own experience where something truly awful happened. I had no control over it and that is difficult. To experience a trauma like that and then at some point, working through all of it, realizing like, okay, and I'm responsible for how I move forward from this. Now, those were certainly not thoughts I had early on in the experience, but eventually came to recognize, oh yeah, the classic you're responsible for your own feelings. You can't make somebody do something, but you can choose how you respond and that if you actually, if and when someone actually experiences an objective for most people would believe this is a trauma. It is hard to get to that point of remembering that the feelings are my own to deal with and my own to manage.

Massimo Backus: 25:30

Yeah, and I think it's important for people to ask themselves if they feel like they're on the receiving end of it. Have they ever been on the contributing end of it? I'm pretty sure that throughout my career as a manager, I've created some traumatic experiences for people that work with me. It is something that I can't go back in time and change, something that I have to take full responsibility for and be able to forgive myself for it. I have to take full responsibility for and be able to forgive myself for it, but I also feel like if I'm going to do that, then I need to forgive the people that have been contributors of that for me. Yes, again, very difficult things to do. This is not easy work, but when you can let that go and then you come back to just what is it that I'm responsible for is truly a liberating place to be, because you and I both know the sad truth is no one is thinking about us as much as we're thinking about us Exactly.

Massimo Backus: 26:23

So the more time we spend thinking about other people, it's reciprocated. And to what end? How do we wake up in the morning and feel good about who we are? How do we end our day with gratitude and appreciation for what we got to experience? In conversations like this? What did I get to do today with this time that I have on earth? And I see that there's a trend and we're moving closer to this, but a large part of it is being able to talk about it from the first person in our own experience and not push it on other people, and that's another risk that I see. Is this work for me? I've been transformed. You must do this and, as someone who is an evangelist for self-compassion, I try and put it in the context of. This is my experience. If any of this sounds interesting to the people, try it out. You don't have to. You could spend the rest of your life thinking that you're not enough or you know um, believing that, um, you need to suffer to succeed.

Manya Chylinski: 27:21

that is, that's everyone's choice, but when you find another way, it's about an invitation as opposed to instruction right, I appreciate that, and we all like to be invited to do things, and nobody likes to be told what to do.

Massimo Backus: 27:36

Yeah, yeah, can I share something with you, mania?

Manya Chylinski: 27:39

Please do.

Massimo Backus: 27:40

So I was giving a keynote opening keynote a few weeks back and as a part of it I read a declaration of self-compassion that is in my book. That's my own declaration of self-compassion, to kind of claim it and say actually I want to be proactive in the relationship that I have with myself because I know that it influences every other relationship I have. Those relationships matter most. And when I finished kind of reciting this during the keynote, one of the people in the audience raised their hand and said would it be OK if we read this all together? I mean, could we make this our declaration? Could we all read it out loud together?

Massimo Backus: 28:19

And so 150 people read this declaration out loud together. And at the end of it there was a collective awe in the room and there was an emotional response that many people had, maybe a little bit of sadness of oh my gosh, I didn't know. That's what I needed, I've been hard on myself but also a sigh of relief, to just put it into words, because sometimes the first step is the scariest and sometimes just saying these things the first time is the scariest, but to do it in community like that, it was beautiful. I mean, it was a very moving experience to witness and just be a part of.

Massimo Backus: 28:57

That sounds so powerful. It really was. It really was. So I just want to share that for others that might find it to be helpful. And this declaration comes from the work of Bob Dunham at the Institute for Generative Leadership. And here it is.

Massimo Backus: 29:16

I am a human being. I'm only a human being. I'm not Superman or Superwoman. I'm not perfect. Perfection is only a story good for suffering, and I've been living that story my whole life. But now I see that it's just my story and I can be the author of my story rather than a victim of it. This old story is just an echo of an old conversation that got trapped in my nervous system and has been haunting me ever since. But it's not the truth, it's just a story. I'm not a machine. I'm a human being, and human beings are finite. I can't know everything, I can't do everything, I can't please everybody, but I can do a lot. I can make invitations, I can make requests, I can make offers, I can produce actions with others to create a shared future that we all care about and make it happen, and that is pretty freaking amazing. So I hereby declare a new story that I am a human being and that is enough. Thanks to life.

Manya Chylinski: 30:31

Wow, I got chills listening to that. I can imagine what it was like in that room. And, massimo, that is the perfect way for us to end this episode. But before we go, first of all, thank you so much. Can you please share with our listeners a little bit more about yourself and how they can reach you?

Massimo Backus: 30:54

Thank you, Manya, and this has been a pleasure for me as well. Massimobackus. com. Massimo Backus on LinkedIn. And if you are curious about self-compassion and specifically how does that fit into your role as a leader, please check out my book Human First, leader Second. And I view this as an invitation for other people to have the epiphany that I had and that so many of my clients have had, and it's the epiphany of self-compassion that it opens up a door to so many possibilities and it costs nothing to be kinder to ourselves, but the impact is priceless.

Manya Chylinski: 31:32

Yes, absolutely Well. Thank you so much. I'll put those links in the show notes and thank you for being here today. And thank you to our listeners for sticking with us through the episode, and we will catch you on the next one.