Notes on Resilience
Notes on Resilience explores how human experience, including adversity, shapes leadership, innovation, and culture. Host Manya Chylinski talks with people whose work, research, or lived experience reveal how we adapt, care, and create after challenge—what these stories show about the systems we build, and what must evolve.
These conversations are rooted in a simple idea: the goal isn’t resilience for its own sake, the goal is well-being. Resilience is what makes recovery and growth possible.
The show serves as field research on how people and systems recover, rebuild, and move forward.
Notes on Resilience
145: Why Your Brain Won’t Read a Long Email During a Disaster, with Mary Schoenfeldt
A steady voice can feel like a life raft when the world flips.
We sat down with emergency management expert and ICISF faculty member Dr. Mary Schoenfeldt to unpack how leaders actually help in the acute moments and the aftermath—what to say, what not to fake, and how to hand off the mic.
Mary breaks down the brain science behind crisis: survival chemicals narrow our vision, mute our hearing, and shift us from executive function into fight, flight, or freeze. That’s why messages must be short, repeated, and grounded in plain language. It’s why “I don’t know yet, and here’s how we’ll find out” can earn more trust than polished certainty. And also why expecting one person to master every phase is a recipe for burnout. S
Mary also reframes public blame and second-guessing as a predictable search for control, not a verdict on character. That perspective helps leaders stay calm, focus on their needs, and maintain humane communication.
Along the way, we talk about peer support, ethical leadership, and the small, repeatable actions that make a huge difference when attention is tunneled and emotions run hot. If you lead people—at work, in government, in schools, or at home—this conversation offers clear tools you can use before, during, and after the next hard day.
Dr. Mary Schoenfeldticis is an ICISF Faculty member and an emergency management professional who is known for her work with business, health care, government, schools, and communities. She has responded to incidents around the world including hurricanes, earthquakes, wildfires, floods, airline accidents, school and community violence, and mass fatality incidents.
You can reach Mary by email at: yoursafeplace@msn.com
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It's okay to say, boy, it's really been a hard day. And I can say that to my team because I've built this team and I've built some trust with this team.
Manya Chylinski:Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, Manya Chylinski. My guest today is Dr. Mary Schoenfeldt. She's an ICISF faculty member, an emergency management professional, been on the faculty at FEMA's Emergency Management Institute. She knows what she's talking about when it comes to crisis recovery, crisis management, and emergencies. That's what we talked about. We talked about what do you need as someone who's leading in a crisis? What do you need to be thinking about? What is the science behind what is happening and what's making it difficult for you? I really enjoyed this conversation and I think you will too. Mary, it's so good to see you. And I'm so happy that you are here on my podcast today.
Mary Schoenfeldt:Manya, I am excited to be a part of this. You and I have been working on this for a while to try to get this conversation going. And so here we are. The timing must be right for us to be doing that.
Manya Chylinski:I think the timing is right. And the timing is right for our listeners too. They're going to find out once you and I get chatting. To get us started, what is one thing that you've done in any area of your life that you never thought you would do?
Mary Schoenfeldt:Well, Mania, I knew you were going to ask that question because you gave me a heads up. So and on the professional level, we can start with that. I never thought I would get to travel internationally to do some training and to do some teaching and to do some consulting. I never conceived that that was a possibility. And on a personal level, I never thought I would raft the Rogue River in Oregon. And I did whitewater rafting down the Rogue River in Oregon. And the reason I never thought that I would ever do that is I don't know how to swim. Oh, golly. But I did. I took the risk and I had some support with some things that made that possible. I thought I was gonna die. I didn't. And so that's that's what did I think I'd never do? I never thought I would get in a whitewater raft for three days and do some class three and four rapids, but I did.
Manya Chylinski:That's that's the other thing. That is some serious rafting. I think both of those are wonderful things to have as experiences and to have not been thinking that you would do those. I'm hoping that on the white router rafting, you were wearing a life jacket. Absolutely.
Mary Schoenfeldt:Life jacket the whole time. I still thought I was gonna die, but yes, a life jacket the whole time.
Manya Chylinski:Yes. Now, I don't know what happened to you, but the last time I went white roder rafting, I got flipped out of the boat and came up under the boat, but it was only for a moment and then I was I was fine. But it is certainly surprising for one moment to be in the boat and then suddenly not be in the boat. Manya, that was that's always been my goal.
Mary Schoenfeldt:I've talked to instructors and whitewater rafting and pros who said, Oh, you need to know how to swim. I said, No, because I never intend to get out of that boat. Right. And so I'm gonna do everything possible to not have to know how to swim and to get out of that boat. So I think my my dedication to staying in that boat might be just a little bit stronger than somebody who says, oh, well, if I jump out, I know I can get back in. Anyway, just interesting conversation. And particularly since we're talking about leadership and we're talking about resilience.
Manya Chylinski:We are, and we're talking about crisis as well. And so I just was thinking as I said that, and to be clear, I did not jump out of the boat. I was in the boat, and then I wasn't in the boat from no effort of my own. And that is what happens to many people when they find themselves in a crisis. You are in the boat and you're fine, and then the next thing you know, you're in the water or you're under the boat. And as we're talking about crisis management and emergency management, how do you define strong leadership in times of crisis when someone gets flipped out of the boat when they weren't expecting it?
Mary Schoenfeldt:I think that fits very well with the with our conversation about rafting. So I think one of the most important things to know is know yourself, right? Know what your skills are, know what your strengths are. And a strong leader knows that they aren't alone, right? They are not a one-man band. One-man bands are greatly entertaining, but that's not that's not who we are. And a strong leader understands that. And they know that they have certain strengths and skills. Mine with the raft was to hang on tight. Yours with the raft was to know that you had the capability of coming back in if you came out, right? So a strong leader understands personally who they are, what skills they bring. And they also understand that they may not be the right leader all the way through that crisis, because there's some phases in crisis management. So those are those are some of the things that I think a strong leader, they need to understand who they are, they need to build a team around them, they need to trust that team, and they need to know that maybe in the beginning, that phase of command, I need to step in and do this, that, and this other thing. But a week later, the crisis is still going on, and that command presence isn't what's needed. And a strong leader understands that.
Manya Chylinski:Right. As you were saying that, I was thinking back to my own experience, not the rafting experience, my own experience with crisis. And as a victim of the crisis, I was looking to the leaders to tell me maybe what to do, but how to think about what happened to me and how to get help. And I was really relying on the leaders. So I'm thinking about it now from the leadership perspective. That's a lot of responsibility.
Mary Schoenfeldt:It is a lot of responsibility. And when I teach leadership in whatever form that takes, and it takes lots of different forms that I get a chance to talk about leadership. But one of the strong messages, and oftentimes I'll repeat it several times, is that what people need in a crisis, they really only need two things. What they need is they need information, and they need the sense that somebody's in control. Now, the information could be from that leader, no matter what the crisis is. I don't have that information yet, but we're getting it, right? That's information. So the information needs to be given more than one time. And then the other one is the sense that somebody's in control. And I think from what little bit I know from your experience, I think your experience probably illustrates that quite well. And you just said that. I, you know, I needed to know that there was somebody who knew more than I did, right? Or that somebody that was there that was looking out in some ways for my interest, even though they didn't know me, right? That's that sense that somebody's in control. So a leader's responsibility, and you hit the nail right on the head about how what a responsibility that is, is to project that sense of calm, project a sense of reassurance, having a team around them, right? And and then having the language, having the knowledge, having the um policies and procedures, maybe having a logo on, uh, you know, what lots of things that give the impression that somebody is in control. The impression it's almost in control. In a sense that somebody's in control. Um, those are the two things. We know that control is an illusion on a good day, and it really is an illusion on a bad day. But that's what people need.
Manya Chylinski:Yes. As you said, from my own experience, that is what I was looking for, and it was looking to, in this case, our civic leaders to fulfill that role. Now, you know, you see people need to kind of have that sense of calm and they need information. But as a leader, you are probably going through the same crisis yourself. So maybe not feeling calm, and perhaps it is an ongoing crisis or it was a one-time thing, but you don't have all the information. How do you manage as a leader that maybe you don't have the things that people are looking to you for?
Mary Schoenfeldt:I think you have to be honest with that, and you say, I don't have that yet. Notice the word yet. Um, and I I will get that. I'm looking for other resources. I've I've got other people who maybe I can bring in that can answer that question or can get that for you. People need to to know that they've been heard and not just that they've been listened to. There's a difference between being listened to and being heard. And if people know that somebody heard them, then they're reassured. All right. So I I I think when you don't have the answers, the answer is I don't have the answer, but I'll get it. I'll work to get whatever that answer is, or if it's possible to get that resource and make that available to you somehow.
Manya Chylinski:Saying I don't know, or I don't have the answer can be really hard for some people.
Mary Schoenfeldt:It can be very hard for some people. And that's one of the reasons why a good leader anticipates that there's a crisis around the corner that they can't see. And by anticipating that, they've already practiced saying, I I don't have the answer to that yet. They have they've they've prescripted, they have a template where they have prescripted, hi, my name is so-and-so. I am, I hold this responsibility, and uh I'm here to talk about crisis XYZ, and I'll give you the information that I can. And if I don't have what you're asking for, I'll see what I can do to get it. But that that's already scripted in some form or another, so that you're not standing in front of a room. And I've been there, so I, you know, I know this personally as well as professionally, and know that the survival chemicals have kicked in for me, standing in front of that room, right? And my brain isn't functioning the way that I want it to be functioning, um, or the way that it was functioning yesterday before the crisis happened. And by having that template, a script that has a great deal of flexibility in it, but at least is going to guide me. And the other thing that it's gonna do for me personally, and I know that there are other people that maybe do it differently, but there are others that do it like me, it builds confidence for me to know that that piece of paper is laying in front of me with my key points written on it. Yes. Right? So that's how you walk into a room, and my in my experience and and not only my own, but listening to other people. That's how you walk into a room or you answer a question on the street, or you do whatever it is that you need to do when you're in front of some folks that want some answers. That's how you say, you know what, I'm gonna give you the best I have. And this is the best I have. We don't want to make up answers.
Manya Chylinski:Yes, absolutely. Especially in most crises, the information is changing so rapidly, whether the crisis has already completed itself or you're in the middle of it, things move so rapidly. And you know, having something scripted is so important because you don't want to be standing there trying to think of what to say while people around you are needing help and information, and your own brain is struggling to focus.
Mary Schoenfeldt:Absolutely. And maybe this is a good time to talk about brain science and survival skills because that's what it's about, right? When we are confronted with an intensely emotional, shocking crisis, whatever words we want to put, our bodies are absolutely amazing. But our what happens with our brain, we have these 132 chemicals, lots of different names for them, that dump into our body that are called survival chemicals. That's the easiest way to explain them. Scientists can talk about them differently than I'm gonna talk about them, right? Um, but what those 132 chemicals do is it takes over the physiology in our body. It's not something that we can control right away. So those 132 chemicals, survival skills, they impact how much oxygen we're taking in, because it impacts our respiration. How deeply are we breathing? How fast is our heart beating? All of those things that impact oxygen impacts our ability to think. Right? So what those survival chemicals do is it really takes us from this place of critical thinking in the front portion of our brain, which is where we make good decisions, that's executive functioning, and it pushes it back, pushes us back to the mid-grain, midbrain, which is the survival brain. And so when you're talking about surviving, what the midbrain is really, really good at is it's good at looking at things from a lens of is this threatening to me? So it looks at it through a lens of fear and of protection, and those survival chemicals also push us back into the reptilian brain, which is why our heart rate changes. So when that that leader steps in front, all of that's happening for them physiologically, and it's not about it's not about those soft pieces of who we are as a leader, it's very much it's brain science, and our brain doesn't know whether or not the dinosaur is chasing us or not, and we need to get out of the way of that dinosaur. So it even does things like it dulls our hearing, it changes our peripheral vision. Because if I'm running from that dinosaur, that truly is what my threat is. I don't need to see the rocks and the trees on either side. I just need to make sure I don't trip. So those chemicals have kept us alive, right? Those that survival mode. But it takes us away from being able to take in complex information and figure out what's important in that whole paragraph that we heard, right? What's what was the key word there that we need to focus on? So the brain science is a is a critical piece, I think, for leaders to understand that there's science to this, it's not just communication skills.
Manya Chylinski:That's why keeping the message simple and repeating the message multiple times in multiple ways is so important after a crisis because people can't hear what you're saying, even if they want to hear what you're saying.
Mary Schoenfeldt:And I was just gonna turn that around and say that. If if you're the leader and you're, you know, your brain's doing all of these things in the in this survival mode, um, so's mine. Right. Right? If I'm one of the people, one of the people who's listening to you. So my brain can't take in a very long explanation about what happened, or my brain can't take in that you're telling me that there's five different places where I might be able to get an answer to my question, right? My my brain can't process that.
Manya Chylinski:Right. And I have my own experience, and I've talked about it on other episodes and different podcasts, of exactly what you were describing, tunnel vision. I couldn't hear anything, you know, other than the two bombs exploding. I couldn't hear anything. And then in the aftermath, just not being able to understand messages I was seeing and what people were saying. And I was looking for messages and I couldn't find them. And if they were there, I didn't see them. And think about that layer, that biological layer of what was actually happening to me. And I can so distinctly remember feeling it. And something I always, this is an aside, but something I always find really frustrating in these days of social media when something bad happens, and we see it on the news, and now we see videos, people on the internet saying, criticizing somebody's reactions. Oh, you ran past somebody who had fallen, or you did X, Y, or Z. And I think they it's that person didn't have a choice. They were doing what biology was saying, which was get out of here. Not, you know, sure, do some people stop and help? Yes, but that's a whole different mechanism. For most of us, it's I just need to get out of here. It's not I'm in caregiving mode. Right.
Mary Schoenfeldt:But and and let's take that a little bit further in that what is what need is being met by that person who's saying who's who's pointing the finger and blaming, right? Because obviously the need of the person who ran by is survival. What's the need of that person who's pointing the finger? Well, there's a biological need to that as well. And here's what that uh what that biological need is to that. And that is what those chemicals do is it makes us fearful, it makes us feel alone, it makes us feel vulnerable, it makes us feel completely out of control, right? And and that's when the survival chemicals kick in and we run by and we do what we do. The person who is blaming or pointing a finger, they need to feel back in control, also, right? And so their way of being back in control is if they can point a finger at me because I didn't do or I did something, whatever, whatever that might be, if they can point a finger at me as the leader, and they can say, Well, Mary messed up. If Mary hadn't done it that way, I would have been safe. So what that does is it increases their sense of safety, it increases their sense of being in control or having some control within their environment. And then they can go, oh, well, then obviously I'm I'm not at risk because it wasn't, it was her fault. And if she did it differently, then it will never happen to me again. So that's the biological science need, Manya, from the other side of that. Yes, is now I feel better, and now I feel like my world is, I can understand it better. It's somebody else's fault. So that scapegoat, and that's one thing with leaders, leaders need to understand they are they're wearing a target, whether they know it or not. And whether it's fair or not. Well, it's it's oftentimes not fair, most of the time. I, you know, I would venture to say all the time, but I won't go that far. But no, there is a very predictable pattern to crisis that is behavioral and psychological for anyone who is impacted with that crisis. And so that means the people on the street as well as the leadership. And one of those stages, I call it a roller coaster, but from gee, we can do anything, it's the Boston strong, right? It's that look at us, we can do amazing things. But once we peak in that kind of honeymoon phase, if we can do anything, the downward picking up speed on the roller coaster is called disillusionment. But that's where I can point the finger at somebody and I can say, if only they'd done it differently, I'd be okay. Because that downward picking up speed is anger, it's depression, it's frustration, it's blame, it's and who's in the middle of that, right? The leader is. So understanding that that is not about you, right? Um, and it's not gonna happen in the first two hours or 10 hours, probably. It's a little bit longer than that, but understanding that you know what, that isn't about you, it's about a predictable reaction to crisis, and it's about this the science. And so, yeah, that's a that's a fascinating piece. And and when I think about what do leaders need to know, or what would uh what do I want them to know? That's one of the things that when people start pointing fingers and throwing rocks at you, yeah, there's always things that you might have been able to do differently. You might have been able to word that differently, or you might have worn a you know different suit or tie, or you know, fix your hair differently, or kept your glasses on or taking them off, whatever. But it isn't, it isn't about you. It's about the predictable nature, and it's any crisis, any crisis that um takes us on this roller coaster ride.
Manya Chylinski:I appreciate you describing it as a roller coaster and can see so many things as you were describing that. You know, you think about the initial response in a crisis is largely reactive. Okay, this thing has happened, we implement our plan, we do X, we we stop this, we start this, etc. But how do you move from that reaction into understanding the long-term recovery that's needed? And here I am thinking that this roller coaster metaphor continues because I feel like there's also a desire that we just get past this and then everything will get back to normal and we don't have to think about it again. And that's that's our want, right?
Mary Schoenfeldt:That's our need. We want to be able to put it put it aside. We want to be able to go back to that moment before, that day before, where we had lots of time to ponder about decisions and look at policies and procedures and do all those other other things that we do in what an emergency manager management we call the blue sky days, right? So we we want to go back there too. This is exhausting. Crisis is is exhausting, and I'm tired because lots of of new demands, the chemicals have have kicked in, and now they've left me absolutely depleted, and you know, I haven't seen my family, or you know, I haven't been able to walk my dog, whatever it is. So we want it to be over. So that's that that's one of the first things I think it goes back to knowing yourself and understanding uh just understanding the dynamics of a crisis. So, first of all, understanding that, yeah, you know, I'm I'm ready to be done. But but the disaster isn't ready to be done. Yes. And also understanding that it might not be me that needs to lead now that the response is over. Right. And and I said that there's like there's four phases to crisis. Well, the the first one is command, no question about that. Step in, read the read the template, give the information, do what needs to do, wear your logo so people have a sense that that somebody is in control. I mean, if you have a logo, but whatever, whatever that that image is. But then as we move from that response piece on through in into short-term or midterm or even long-term recovery, that crisis in the need space change. So the first phase is command. So step in and do what you need to do there. Second phase of any crisis is coordination. So, and that's about relationships, right? That's about knowing who has what resources and being able to put those pieces together. It's a big puzzle. Being able to put those puzzle pieces together in a way that makes sense, right? So the second phase is really about relationships. And I don't know a single leader, I've never met one, and I'm certainly not one that has everything it takes to lead all the way through initial response on into long-term recovery. So that goes back to let's build a team, right? Let's let's know who else has the skills that might be needed beyond mine, and then giving them the trust and building their credibility as we pass off, as we move from my leadership to your leadership, because you're better at all this relationship stuff than I am. Then I have a responsibility as a leader if I stepped in as command to say, I've I boy, I've I've got the best hands I can put you in, and it's Manya, and she's the one now that I'm gonna turn and I'm gonna ask her questions. Well, that's a handoff that my credibility now becomes your credibility. And so the second phase is is coordination, third phase is empathy, and that's understanding that people are scared, people are off balance in in their emotions and physically and life, right? So understanding that people have some needs of some sort, and so that's the third phase. And that may not be me, and it may not be you, right? There may be a third person on our team that's better at being able to say, I know this is really hard, isn't it? We didn't think this would ever happen in our community, but it did. Now let's think about what we're gonna be able to do about it, let's work together to do about that. That's the empathy. And then the fourth phase of that crisis is called a new reality integration. And that's somebody that may be a fourth person. Maybe it's maybe it's one of us, but maybe it's a fourth person who's able to say, boy, this really changed the way that we do business. And that's as a family, that's as a person, that's as a company, that's as an agency, that's as a community. Our world isn't the same, but this is what it looks like as we go forward. And these are some of the things that that we see have happened as a result of that. These are some of the things that we see down the road, and that's that new reality integration. So when you look at crisis, many, and you're looking at leadership, the one-man doesn't work. Yeah.
Manya Chylinski:I appreciate you talking about those phases and what you need in a leader at each phase. That had never occurred to me. I I suppose I had generally thought maybe the same person can't do all of the things, but it's so clear from your description of what is needed at each of those stages. That would be a superhuman who would be able to have all of those skills and have the time to be doing that kind of thing. Right, yes. Mary, we are getting close to the end of our time. And I'm curious when you when you think about crises and the response to crises, what is giving you hope these days? Oh, what an interesting question.
Mary Schoenfeldt:What is giving me hope? I I think the hope comes from we keep learning more. And we keep learning more about the brain science, we keep learning more about what crisis really is. And we're moving towards, we're not as far there as I would like us to be. Yet, but we're moving towards a place where it's okay to say, I don't have the answer, right? That we're making being human and whatever, you know, and all of the flaws and whatever that might be. But we're getting to the place where it's okay to say, boy, it's really been a hard day. And I can say that to my team because I've built this team and I've built some trust with this team. I'm not going to say that. Maybe I'm I'm not going to say it in the same way to my community, but we're getting to a place that we're looking at peer support teams, more and more peer support programs and lots of lots of professions. We've had them in fire and police, um, but they're also in the airline industry. That's one of the trips that I'm going to do this next, the this next spring internationally, is go talk with the airline industry. And it's about peer support. So we're making these conversations, and thank you to you for your podcast and getting helping to get that conversation out there into what I call a kitchen table conversation. So I that's what gives me hope that we're learning more, we're getting more honest about what it means to be in crisis. I I worked for a police agency many, many, many, many, many years ago, and we had an officer involved shooting. And the response from administration was to hand the officer that was involved in that officer-involved shooting $20, tell him to take an hour off of his shift and stop by the liquor store on his way home. Now, I don't ever hear that anymore. So that's what gives me hope is that our leaders, and in that in that instance, obviously the administration was the leader there. Our leaders understand what it means to be compassionate, what it means to be a good leader in crisis, and what the skills are, and what the limitations are, and how to make that so that leadership truly is what's needed in the moment. Right.
Manya Chylinski:Mary, thank you so much. I I want to say that this conversation is giving me hope. Knowing that you are out there training people how to deal with crisis just gives me comfort that people are going to be getting it right. The people certainly many people do get it right. And the people that you're training are some of those people who are getting it right. So thank you for the important work that you're doing. Um, and and before we say goodbye, can you please share with our listeners a little bit more about who you are and what that work is?
Mary Schoenfeldt:Well, who I am, I am a retired, I say I'm not retired, I'm repurposed emergency management professional and been around a long time and I've learned a lot of lessons that other people have learned in a hard way, and I'm able to then take them somewhere else. So I'm a you know, trainer and a consultant in obviously leadership skills of all kinds, but but with my passion about crisis leadership. I do a great deal of work with um disaster psychology, disaster mental health, all volunteer and come to your community through a nonprofit that I'm a part of to help following your crisis or to help follow um following your disaster. Do a lot of work with schools and community in just managing crisis, everything from planning and thinking and reviewing plans to um actually responding. Teach a lot of leadership, whether that's change management, whether that's ethics. And that's that's a whole nother conversation about leadership ethics that I everybody needs to hear. And so those those are those are some of the things that that I do. You can find me. I don't have a website, but you can find me by my email, which is your safeplace at msn.com. Have that, I've had that email ever since my very first one, and and it still very much fits. Yes, it does. That's what I do, Manya. And and being repurposed, I pick and choose what's important for me to work on. And uh talking about crisis leadership and making sure that we've got folks who understand that role, all that it is and all that it isn't, is important to me.
Manya Chylinski:Well, thank you for that. I'll put your email address in the show notes so folks can reach you. And uh, Mary, thank you for this conversation. I've learned so much and I've really enjoyed talking with you.
Mary Schoenfeldt:It has been great. And Manya thank you so much for the invitation. And and um let's do it again. I'm on board. Let's do it about compassion or let's do it about some other topic. I would I would love to do that.
Manya Chylinski:I am on board. Count me in. And I want to say thank you to our listeners for listening to this episode of Notes on Resilience, and we will catch you next time.
