150: Leaning Into Anxiety, with David Rosmarin

Anxiety doesn’t mean you’re broken; it means you care. When stakes rise, that surge of energy can sharpen focus, rally teams, and improve decisions—if you know how to work with it. 

We sit down with Harvard Medical School psychologist David Rosmarin to unpack a practical, research-grounded approach any leader can use to turn anxious moments into traction.

David explains what anxiety really is—both the body’s activation and the mind’s appraisal of threat—and why chasing zero anxiety backfires. Instead, he offers a clear framework. We also talk about the cultural shift organizations need: stop pathologizing normal stress and start building simple rituals that make conversation safe and useful. From a team paralyzed by AI fears to a company-wide workshop that turned nerves into unity, David demonstrates how reframing anxiety as evidence of care can transform outcomes.

You’ll learn a straightforward scale to gauge everyday activation versus clinical concern, how to run quick check-ins that reduce silence and guesswork, and why leaders who pretend they’re never anxious often drive unhealthy coping across a team. The result is a playbook for resilience: fewer knee-jerk decisions, more clarity in crisis, and a culture that treats uncertainty as a space for skill, not shame.

Dr. David Rosmarin, PhD is a Harvard psychologist, keynote speaker, and founder of Center for Anxiety and the author of Thriving with Anxiety: 9 Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You. He is a trusted expert who delivers insightful, science-backed commentary with clarity and compassion. He has been featured in TIME, The Harvard Gazette, Good Morning America, over 40 leading podcasts, and has delivered two widely viewed TEDx talks.

Visit his website or connect with him on LinkedIn.

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Chapters

• 1:29 Meet David H. Rosmarin
• 2:13 Writing For The Public
• 4:14 Defining Anxiety Clearly
• 7:57 From Stigma To Signal
• 9:52 Culture Change Inside Companies
• 12:19 Pause, Identify, And Reflect
• 16:55 Building Skills, Not Suppression
• 22:24 Reframing Team Stress As Care
• 24:57 A Simple 1–9 Anxiety Scale
• 27:57 The Four Steps Summarized
• 29:02 About David And How To Connect

Transcript

David Rosmarin: 0:00

When you create a culture in a company or an organization that embraces anxiety, what you can do is reframe that the feelings that people have are actually a sign of allegiance and a sign that they are giving it their all.

Manya Chylinski: 0:15

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, Manya Chylinski. My guest today is David Rosmarin. He is an associate professor at Harvard Medical School. He's the founder of the Center for Anxiety and the author of the book Thriving with Anxiety: Nine Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You. We had a fabulous conversation about what anxiety is, how important it is that we listen to what it's telling us, and what leaders can be thinking about what anxiety means for them. I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. David, thank you for being here. I'm so excited to talk to you today.

David Rosmarin: 0:55

Thanks for having me. What a really looking forward to this conversation.

Manya Chylinski: 0:59

The first question we start off all my guests is what is one thing you have done in any area of your life that you never thought you would do.

David Rosmarin: 1:08

I never thought that I would uh write a book for a popular audience. I thought it would be uh primarily academic and clinical work. And uh for many years that was the case. And then the COVID pandemic happened, and you know, I realized the importance of getting beyond the ivory tower and writing for a broader group. So that's just one that comes to comes to mind.

Manya Chylinski: 1:29

Well, I love that you have multiple things to choose from. Um and I'm curious, what was different writing for the general audience than the academic audience?

David Rosmarin: 1:37

A lot of the piping is behind the walls, if you will. Like, you know, coming at it from you know, over 20 years of working in the in academia, you know, 15 years at Harvard, and also working in the clinical space, there's a lot of technical thought. And uh, whether that's research or whether that's you know clinical methods, and those have to be translated almost like an ambassador into you know the lingo, the lingo franca, as they say, that's a process to sort of make things more accessible and make them relatable, um, to tell more stories as opposed to citing more data. And it was a real transition for me.

Manya Chylinski: 2:11

Oh, interesting. I bet it was fun.

David Rosmarin: 2:13

Yeah, it was. It was certainly, you know, a challenge and an invited challenge and something I'm now hooked on, already working on the next one. Uh yeah.

Manya Chylinski: 2:22

Excellent. Well, that sounds fabulous. And I have a background as a writer, so I'm always interested in the process of writing. And so thank you for indulging me with those questions.

David Rosmarin: 2:32

Pick the right example.

Manya Chylinski: 2:34

So today we're talking about leadership and crisis and anxiety, which I know is something you know very much about. And just to get started, what do you think makes a strong leader in a crisis situation?

David Rosmarin: 2:52

Sure. So I'm gonna answer it from my specific angle. There are a lot of things that can make people a strong leader. I think one, honestly, is some anxiety and the acknowledgement that they're feeling a certain way. You know, the reality of being a leader is that stuff's gonna happen. There's gonna be pressure, there's gonna be crises, there's gonna be issues. Um, it is lonely at the top, as they say, and that responsibility comes with struggle on some, sometimes, maybe more often than not. And the question is not whether that struggle happens, but what do you do when it does and how do you handle it? I have a four-step process for turning anxiety into your friend, not your enemy. I think that's uh one way or one pathway to doing so, but ultimately it's not about getting rid of that anxiety and getting rid of that pressure. It's not about um leaning away from it. The whole process is about leaning into it and learning to use it in a constructive way. So that that, at least from my standpoint, is uh one thing that the leaders need.

Manya Chylinski: 3:55

Right. Absolutely. Well, to so that we're all talking about the same thing. Can you explain what is anxiety?

David Rosmarin: 4:03

Sure. Uh it's familiar to me. I imagine it's familiar to most of your audience. On the physiological or physical side of things, which is one part of it, there is the uh rapid heartbeat and and uh sweaty palms and uh unexplained sweating and uh you know cotton mouth, lump in your throat. But really, what it's coming from is a cognitive space or your thoughts where you're perceiving there to be some sort of a danger, some sort of a threat. Um, and again, in leadership, that's going to happen. You're gonna have threat, you're gonna have danger, you're gonna have concerns, you're gonna have issues, you're gonna be facing that. Um, there are also behavioral aspects of anxiety. Most of all, we either fight away against it or we flee from it. Um, there are some pros to those, but uh I think we do need to take a different approach if we're gonna really use anxiety in a constructive way, which is where my my four steps comes in.

Manya Chylinski: 4:56

Right. Well, raising my hand, absolutely have experienced much anxiety and have learned, I think, many of many coping mechanisms and many ways to treat it like my friend and like it is great, giving me information that I need in the moment.

David Rosmarin: 5:13

That's that's the path. That sounds great.

Manya Chylinski: 5:16

Yes, um, it is not fun at times. But you know, as we're I think it's something people are afraid of, the concept of anxiety.

David Rosmarin: 5:26

Very much so. And it's not just a concept. Uh, we over-pathologize it, when we stigmatize it. I wouldn't even say stigmatize, we overdiagnose it. Um we've come to believe in our society that any aspect of anxiety is a disease or disorder or something's wrong with us. And I don't think that's true. I think that people, when they're doing something which is meaningful, when they're doing something which is challenging, when they are um engaged in um in processes that are new and that are novel, that are uncertain, they are going to feel some apprehension. You know, you're gonna have uh secretion from your adrenal glands, you're gonna have uh, you know, adrenaline's gonna seep into your bloodstream, and there's gonna be neurobiological processes that are helping you, frankly, to adapt, but they are uncomfortable. And we have come to pathologize that process as opposed to recognizing that it's actually necessary to function at a at an optimal level. And then the question doesn't become how can I get rid of these this curse, but how can I use it in a in a constructive way, which is to your point from before.

Manya Chylinski: 6:28

And that's interesting because it's a biological process, like breathing, maybe not exactly like breathing, but I think we put so much stigma on it and are so afraid of it when it's something that happens to everybody at some point.

David Rosmarin: 6:45

Yeah, I mean, I think the reason we do it is because it's uncomfortable. So it makes more sense than the breathing. Um, but there's another aspect, which is that we want to be in control. And uh the nature of anxiety is that it's alerting us to the fact that we're not in control, and that's that's aversive in our society. Interestingly, other societies are not like that. And when you have societies that are more tolerant of uncertainty, lo and behold, their levels of clinical anxiety are actually substantially less.

Manya Chylinski: 7:11

Oh, wow. Okay. I didn't realize sort of closely it was tied with that sense of control. Um, and so if we're talking about leaders, and you're talking about, you know, we need to be paying attention to that anxiety. How, what kind of practices or structures should we be creating for leaders to be helping them understand their anxiety and manage it rather than be overcome by it as they're especially dealing with a crisis?

David Rosmarin: 7:40

Yeah. Um I think this is a place where whether it's consulting or whether it's coaching or whether it's keynotes can come in. Often leaders who have been through more significant anxiety have a psychological savviness and can introduce their teams to this through uh I would call it culture change. I think there has to be a culture change within corporate America, just like there does in the education system and even in the healthcare system where I am sort of situated, where we don't pathologize anxiety. We sort of look at it as a human emotion and an aspect. Now, just to be really clear, at a certain point it can become disordered, very much so. And clinical anxiety is something I'm very aware of and know, have clinical expertise in how to deal with, uh, whether that's panic disorder or obsessive compulsive disorder or uh you know aspects that are when it's really interfering with your life. But within a corporate setting, most of the time we have to learn how to use our anxiety, for example, to connect. Uh, I'll give you a concrete example from a team that I was consulting with where there was a real threat to the company. Um, and a lot of companies are in this state now with AI and with you know emerging emerging trends. And the the team was feeling anxious and not communicating about it, and it was actually making things worse. So we just held a session really after a keynote, had a keynote to introduce these ideas, and then afterwards had a you know workshop session for them to just connect with each other around their anxiety, and it actually became a point of unification in the team as opposed to point of division. Once you were able to, they were able to talk about it, it actually became like, oh, I'm feeling that way too. And here's what we can do to support each other. Um, very human, very human and very healthy as opposed to how can I get rid of these terrible feelings, um, which is usually what we do.

Manya Chylinski: 9:24

It is. And what you said is so important that we often feel alone when we're feeling these feelings and and afraid to tell somebody else about them. And when we realize other people are feeling the same way, it really changes the picture.

David Rosmarin: 9:38

But 100%. That takes uh so much air out of the balloon, as I like to say. Can you connect with another person about our feelings as opposed to making it a point of division?

Manya Chylinski: 9:49

Absolutely. So, you know, you're in this example you were talking about, you know, they're the they're dealing with something difficult. How do you use that that feeling that you've got, that anxiety, that apprehension, balance the urgency that you feel that you need to act immediately, and also when possible, pause and take time to really understand what's going on. How do you find that balance?

David Rosmarin: 10:16

Well, I wouldn't call it a balance at all. I think pausing and taking the time to find out what's on is exactly the opposite of feeling like you have to respond to it with urgency. And in fact, it's my first step, which is identify to identify the root of your anxiety. Um, I have a rule for myself, and I think that it's something that I encourage, um, whether it's, you know, coaching clients or people doing concierge mental health with me, or certainly in my keynotes, I speak about this a lot. When you feel anxious in a certain day, within 24 hours, go for a walk for at least 10 minutes and just process like what made me so anxious at that time. Often people will just keep working really hard, they will push themselves even more, they will sort of double down on whatever isn't working, they'll distract themselves, um, they'll reach immediately for uh for the Xanax, which has its place, by the way. But like, I don't know if it's the immediate move always, um, as often it is. And instead of actually saying, like, why did I get so anxious? Like, what really am I concerned about? What's at the root of this? And instead, when you take that approach, what you do is you're using anxiety. I like to say you're using it as a flashlight to shine into yourself and to understand like what's making me tech care. So that is the first step. And from a non-reactive, non-judgmental, just inquiry place, like what's going on.

Manya Chylinski: 11:38

Right, right. Well, I think you said two really important words, non-reactive and non-judgmental. And I think we can be really, maybe I should only speak for myself, be really judgmental that I shouldn't be feeling this or I know how to deal with this. Why am I feeling so apprehensive?

David Rosmarin: 11:56

It's exactly the point, you know. And and I and by the way, for parents in the audience, the people often do this with their kids. The kid comes home and they're feeling anxious and they're like, is everything okay? You know, as opposed to like, what happened? Which is much more just using anxiety to understand and to connect, as opposed to like to try to control it. Um, and I think we need to shift our honestly, it is a cultural shift. We have to shift our our gut response to anxiety to be something much more normal and human as opposed to a problem and a pathology in every case.

Manya Chylinski: 12:30

Right. So, in addition to the work that you are doing to help us make that shift, what else do we need to be doing to make that shift?

David Rosmarin: 13:06

Well, like I said, it is it is a culture and it takes time. Um, I think that when teams have some skills to do this, for one of the groups that I'm working with, one of the companies I'm working with now, they asked me to put together a, they have a group coaching program in-house and they asked me to put together a uh two-hour um sort of a staged process for them to go through with their staff. So I'm sort of training the trainer, if you will, and created a um basically essentially it's a half hour on each of the four tools. One, two, three, four, two hours, and um maybe a little less, 25 minutes, opening 10 minutes, opening closing 10 minutes, and uh they'll be using it. So I think you know, it's like anything. If you want to learn how to ride a bike, you get a bike and you have to practice. You want to learn how to use AI, then you gotta sign up for a course and you have to start. And I don't think emotional, I was gonna call it management. I don't think emotional awareness and becoming, you know, psychologically mindful is like is different than any other skill. Like it's you have to see what you need to do, learn the skills, practice them, and then reap the benefits.

Manya Chylinski: 14:12

It is the same as any other skill, but I don't, I feel like we don't think about our emotions or dealing with our emotions in that way. It's as if we act that we just should always know how to deal with what's going on.

David Rosmarin: 14:28

Yeah, I 100% agree with you. I would even say more than that. We think that anytime our emotions are stressing or upsetting, that something's wrong with us, and that there's a clinical process here that needs to be repaired, as opposed to this is an aspect of myself that needs to be managed. Now, if it's interfering with your life, then yes, by the way, like, you know, I just got a call this morning from somebody who's not getting out of bed for two days, and they are not able to work, and they are depressed to that extent and anxious to that extent. And and that's a different game, but but most of the time it's not like that. Most of the time, it's something that you carry around with a pit in your stomach and you sort of just grin and bear it. And then when you're going to bed at night, then it sort of starts up again and hopefully it doesn't keep you up for too long. You wake up with like a little bit of stomach upset, and throughout the day, you're like a little bit off kilter, but like you sort of trudge through. That's the anxiety that we can use. That's normal anxiety, at least for a leader. That's gonna be part of the package.

Manya Chylinski: 15:29

Right. Well, I came to a place in learning how to deal with my own anxiety, um, after which I sure I didn't necessarily deal with before the bombing, but learned much about after surviving the bombing. And I got to this place where I will say to myself, like, okay, I'm uncomfortable right now, but I'm safe. So it's, you know, I could deal with whatever's happening. And at some point I may need to figure out why I'm feeling anxious. But in this moment, I just need to acknowledge that I'm feeling something.

David Rosmarin: 16:03

That must have been quite the quite the journey for you, and quite the journey for you.

Manya Chylinski: 16:07

It was quite the journey for me. And it's been fascinating learning so much more about how we it's about human behavior and human emotions and how we manage them or don't manage them or wish they would go away and don't do anything about them.

David Rosmarin: 16:25

Right.

Manya Chylinski: 16:26

Um, okay.

David Rosmarin: 16:27

That's exactly that's exactly the MO, but um, it's not helpful. I think it's making the anxiety epidemic substantially worse. In fact, it's the main cause of it in my mind. How we've uh our failure to deal with anxiety is making it have a resurgence in big ways.

Manya Chylinski: 16:44

Yes. Something I talk about in my talks is that the more you try to pretend something isn't happening, the more it's probably going to let you know that you need to pay attention to it.

David Rosmarin: 16:56

I guess so. The irony.

Manya Chylinski: 16:58

Okay. So anxiety is something that leaders can use and it's necessary in those reactive moments. You know, when you're working with organizations, how do you help them take that information and make meaningful long-term change?

David Rosmarin: 17:16

Um, it's a process like any other, but I think once you get at it, it's fine. You know, one of the things I've really tried to do over the last five years or so since I started this um pathway of taking the clinical and research knowledge that I have and using it more for a popular audience is simplifying the message. Uh even my last book was nine as uh thriving with anxiety, nine tools to make your anxiety work for you. And I realized nine is way too many. It's just too many things, you know. And I do think each of the tools is helpful. I use them myself on a regular basis, you know, in my consulting work and coaching. Like I'm certainly helping people to access those tools and sort of thinking in my mind, you know, it's there's one, two, three, four, five, six, and seven, eight, nine, sort of different groups of them and how they work. And then I realized like last year that this needs to be simplified. And four steps is where it's at. So that that's one of the reasons why I have like step one, step two, step three, step four, keep it simple, know what to do, practice it. And I think that that's one of the things that's missing often when it comes to conversations about anxiety or conversations about emotions, even broader. It's just so complicated. Like it becomes such a dark layered discussion and contextualized about relationships. And that's not false, but it's not helpful. Like we need a clear path that works and is based on research and has helped thousands of people and can be used in almost any single situation you are in. And like, hey, B C D, like, what do I do? So, so developing that has been has been so much fun and also just helpful to people, the feedback that I'm getting. And so I think that's one of the the probably the biggest thing we have to do is simplify the message, keep it clear, and give people a path that works.

Manya Chylinski: 19:07

Well, as you were talking, I was thinking, uh, you know, these these come these conversations about emotions and thinking can absolutely be incredibly complex because we start to go down the path of all the reasons and and things. It's it made me think of uh when you uh do something like you want to repaint your bathroom, and next thing you know, you have to entirely renovate your whole house because you fix the bathroom and then you have to do the hallway, and then you have to do every room that touches the hallway.

David Rosmarin: 19:36

Right. Right. And this doesn't match with that.

Manya Chylinski: 19:39

Exactly.

David Rosmarin: 19:39

And then they ran out and then they ran out of the old tiles and now you have to retile. Right. We've all been there. Uh, but I but I think the uh you're right. Like that's it doesn't have to be that complicated. And I and it doesn't have to look bad at the end of the day. Like you can have a process and then you can build from there. Like start with the core, and then you know, like every business is built, same thing.

Manya Chylinski: 20:00

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I think one thing that I've seen and I've heard from people is the fear that acknowledging something like anxiety or um that you're having difficulty somehow means you're going to be diagnosed with a mental illness. And there's still such a stigma about that that people are afraid of even touching it for fear that they're going to be called mentally ill.

David Rosmarin: 20:27

Yeah, that's bullshit. It is. It's flat out bullshit. There's nothing else to say. I'll ask you a question. Do you know anybody in the last two weeks or month who has had zero anxiety? No. So, like, why are we stigmatizing something that every human being on the planet has? Do you have you ever met a leader who had no anxiety, who didn't have a moderate level of anxiety? No, I've met leaders who pretend they don't have any anxiety.

Manya Chylinski: 20:52

Okay, that I've seen too.

David Rosmarin: 20:53

Plenty. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. And frankly, that's worse. And a leader who doesn't acknowledge their anxiety usually has a drug problem or an alcohol problem, narcissism, or just complete denial, and there's something even more significant going on. But I shouldn't generalize that much. I'm saying it's a little bit in jest. But you need to be aware of what your threats are. And if you're leading a corporation or an organization, there are going to be threats. So you're either aware of that and the emotional fallout that there is, or you have ways of avoiding it, which are probably not that healthy.

Manya Chylinski: 21:26

Yeah, interesting. About the maladaptive coping, I think we've we've all either tried some of those or really wished we could try some of those.

David Rosmarin: 21:34

That's true. I think that's true that we've all have our maladaptive ways of dealing with whether it's anxiety or other forms of emotional pain. And I also think that it doesn't have to be that way. And if we have a pathway that actually helps us to use it constructively, then that's probably better.

Manya Chylinski: 21:51

And to be fair, in my own path, it was coaches and teachers and leaders and therapists, varying degrees, who helped me figure out the way through my own and how to deal with my own and how to, you know, treat it as information or as that flashlight, like you mentioned. It wasn't something I just figured out on my own as I was dealing with anxiety.

David Rosmarin: 22:18

I wouldn't expect people to figure it out on their own in the culture that we live in. I think that would actually be very odd if they did. I think that that's um this is this is very counter-cultural to us. We pathologize anxiety. In fact, leaders often see anxiety as a risk, not only to in terms of stigma, but also in terms of financials. Like now am I gonna have to give people time off? Am I gonna have to ask less of them because they're having anxious? I think that the actually the opposite is true. Because when you create a culture in a company or an organization that embraces anxiety, what you can do is reframe that the feelings that people have are actually a sign of allegiance and a sign that they are giving it their all. And I and I've seen some companies do this in an amazing way when they're launching a new product and people are anxious and stressed about it, then the leader comes in and says, Think I'm this is exactly why you're here. You are stressed, and that's why you are on my team. Because we're in this together and we care about what we're doing, and we are going to surmount this. And if you didn't feel stressed, then wouldn't be a good indicator. So it's just a matter of how you look at it. What's the lens?

Manya Chylinski: 23:20

Exactly. And I appreciate that reframing of if you didn't care, you wouldn't have that feeling. And so what do people get anxious about? It's always what they care about. Always. Yeah. Interesting. And I think how do you help leaders understand that that that anxiety in their team is is not a bad sign?

David Rosmarin: 23:40

It's a conversation, not much more than a consultative conversation. I mean, sometimes people have really had this message um drilled into them from all different angles, and that's you know, obviously a longer process. But I think from a systems standpoint, it's not hard to have some basic cultural shifts that are gonna be supportive for 90-95% of a workforce.

Manya Chylinski: 24:07

Right. You just have to be ready, you just have to want to do it. Yeah, just like anything else. Yeah. I know you make it sound so easy, and I know that it is not a complicated process.

David Rosmarin: 24:19

Well, when we're talking about clinical anxiety, it's not. I mean, then it gets it gets like this person this morning who can't get out of bed who I'm you know have to deal with later. Like that's that's not gonna be easy. That's not gonna be even simple. There's probably three or four really complex things, and I'm not gonna just take a four-step process and throw them at the time. I know that like that's that's psychopathology. We're dealing with somebody who's you know clinically depressed and anxious to the point of significant dysfunction. And I have the tools to be able to do that, but that's that's where nine, not even nine tools can do that trick. Like that's you need you need a you need a uh really a toolkit. But that's not what we're usually dealing with, at least not in the corporate sphere.

Manya Chylinski: 24:59

And I think that example is helpful for our listeners to understand, kind of to put where does your anxiety fall on this scale? If you've been able to get out of bed and you're simply anxious then about the outcome of a project, then that's information. You are still functioning. Um, I think there can be fear when you feel that overwhelming feeling. Um, it's just so bad. And we don't have a scale to understand where it falls on the on the spectrum.

David Rosmarin: 25:32

Well, um, one scale that I've shared in the past, which is pretty simple, is one to nine. One, two, and three are low, four, five, six are medium, and seven, eight, nine are high. Usually in the seven, eight, nine range, it's something which is interfering with your life. Not always, but almost always. Four, five, six is can be an area that leaders are in, certainly, especially during periods of high stress. Uh, and a one, two, three is very normal. The goal is not to get to a zero. That doesn't that's not I don't think that's healthy, in fact. But the goal is to learn to use whatever level of anxiety you have in a constructive way. Um theoretically, even if it's uh on the high end, although that's obviously much harder to do, but certainly if it's on the low end and indeed in the middle end middle range too, one can learn skills to do that.

Manya Chylinski: 26:21

Okay. Oh, that scale is really helpful. Thank you for sharing that. And we are getting to the end of our time. So what is one question you wish I had asked you, and how would you answer it?

David Rosmarin: 26:35

I don't know, we talked about so much. Um, you didn't ask me what my four steps are. So that's a good way to wrap up. Identify the core root of your anxiety, what is making you tick, identify. Two is to share, share your anxiety with another human being, which we spoke about a little bit, but when you do that, you put to create a point of connection with them, to share it with intention. Three is to embrace your anxiety, not to fight it, but actually to lean into it and to allow it to happen, to allow it to increase your resilience, which it will do if you just let it sit as opposed to trying to get rid of it. And four, the hardest one for me is to let go and to recognize the limits of our control, um, and that it's not a bad thing, it's just a human thing. Um, so identify, share, embrace, and let go are the four steps. It's based on my TEDx national talk from 2024, which has um at this point close to a million views. So that's kind of cool.

Manya Chylinski: 27:29

I am one of those views. I really like the talk. So thank you for that. Sure. And thank you for joining me today. Before we let you go, can you tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself and what you do? Sure.

David Rosmarin: 27:41

Uh so I'm a clinical psychologist and an academic. I'm at Harvard Medical School and associate professor. I've been there for 15 years. I also founded the Center for Anxiety, which has offices in New York and Boston. We serve of we've serviced over 10,000 patients and families with clinical anxiety and clinical anxiety concerns. Uh people can reach out to me uh by my website, dh R O S M A R I N D H Rosmarin.com. I am on LinkedIn as well, D H R O S M A R I N, D H Ros Marin. Um, I would love to hear from people, love to hear from your listeners. Uh, please engage, tell me what you think about this, about the other work. I do post regularly on LinkedIn, so fun content, I think, for uh uh thought leaders, for um leaders of companies, I should say, and others in the uh in the HR, in the uh human resources about anxiety and other mental health matters. And uh just love to stay connected with you and your listeners and appreciate you having me on the show.

Manya Chylinski: 28:37

Oh, thank you so much, David. I appreciate having you and and getting this insight into anxiety and how how we can use it. And thank you to our listeners for tuning into this episode, and we will catch you next time.