182: Trust-First Leadership In The Age Of AI, with Tamar Cohen

A CEO calls employees “low-value human capital,” companies brag about AI while cutting people loose, and somehow, workers are told to just be resilient.

To be honest about what that does to trust and what leaders can do differently, I sat down with Tamar Cohen, founder of Halo Effect, to talk about the real human cost of fear-based management and the very real business costs that follow.

Tamar shares two stories that changed how she thinks about leadership: one boss who responded to a scary personal moment with a simple, powerful line, “Tell me what you need, I’ll get it for you,” and another who pushed her to deliver a high-stakes presentation while she had pneumonia. We use those extremes to distinguish between supportive and dehumanizing leadership, especially in high-pressure environments where burnout is always lurking.

From there, we dig into resilience as momentum, why trust is a lagging indicator, and why layoffs don’t magically create efficiency when the people who remain are disillusioned and overloaded. 

We also talk about the AI bubble and what it really costs companies, from data cleaning to training to massive infrastructure bets, and why the promised ROI can be harder to reach than leaders admit.

Most importantly, we lay out a practical, human-centered AI operating model: be transparent, bring employees into decisions about the AI tools you want to use, invest in real upskilling, map processes before automating, and communicate clearly about how roles will evolve. 

If you care about employee experience, organizational culture, the future of work, and leading through AI without breaking trust, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share with a leader who needs it, and leave a review with the best (or worst) leadership line you’ve ever heard.

Tamar Cohen is the CEO and Founder of HaloEffect. She doesn’t talk about employee engagement, she’s working to replace it. She equips leaders with a new operating model for work experience in an era where AI, distributed work, and trust erosion are reshaping how people contribute. With a background in CX, EX, and organizational design across global enterprises, she translates complex workforce signals into strategies that drive retention, performance, and belief in the workplace.

• Email: tcohen@myhaloeffect.com
• Website: www.myhaloeffect.com 
• LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/tamarcohen

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Transcript

Human-Led Leadership Teaser

Tamar Cohen 0:01

CEO by design had a human-led approach. So they brought in as part of their operating style the idea that they want to lead with the employee. They want to lead with the customer. That very kind of like human experience structure was part of their founding culture.

Welcome And Why Trust Matters

Manya Chylinski 0:28

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, Manya Chylinski. My guest today is Tamar Cohen. She's the founder of Halo Effect. She equips leaders with a new operating model for work experience in an era where AI, distributed work, and the erosion of trust are reshaping how people contribute. And that's what we talked about. We talked about the concept of trust, we talked about resiliency, and we talked about how AI doesn't have to mean lots of layoffs. I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Tamar, I'm so glad to get you on the podcast. Thank you for being here today.

Tamar Cohen 1:12

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited for this conversation.

When Your Face Tells On You

Manya Chylinski 1:15

To get us started, what would the title of a book about you be if your worst enemy wrote it?

Tamar Cohen 1:24

I'm trying to think of how to say this without needing to bleep it, but it would be something along the lines of like, what the F is her problem? And the reason why I think that that's what it would be is my face has a tendency to talk on behalf of my brain, hold things back. It kind of can still reveal what's going on. And so I have a feeling that then I've actually been told, you know, people have sort of said to me or about me, then you know, like the hell is her problem.

Manya Chylinski 1:59

I don't know. Well, thank you for sharing that. And I will admit to you and our listeners, I have a similar problem. I'm not sure it's a problem, but a similar issue. Um, and back in the day, pre-COVID, when most of our group calls were phone calls, right? They were conference calls, it didn't matter so much. And then we switched to video calls.

Tamar Cohen 2:24

And I just have to, I mean, thank God for having the Zoom kind of uh split screen so that you can at least like monitor your face.

Manya Chylinski 2:31

Exactly. Oh, well, thank you so much for sharing that.

A Boss Who Made Flex Work

Manya Chylinski 2:36

And everyone has a moment in their life, I think, that changes how they think about leadership or how they think about taking care of other people. What was one of those moments for you?

Tamar Cohen 2:50

Yeah, I had a few. Um, my background is really varied, starting from art history and going into public relations and then financial services, really just all over the map. And so I've had I've worked in industries of all types, companies of all shapes and sizes, managers of all different styles. And, you know, I think I learned early on that you can't please everyone. You have to kind of learn who your manager is, what they look for, what their style is, and you sort of learn to be a little bit of a chameleon. And I think that's just part of evolving on a job. But I think, in terms of really understanding, I have sort of a moment of good leadership that I can tell you. When my son was first born, he was uh doctors actually thought he was autistic. And it turns out he wasn't. But we had, oh my God, like every week was neurologists and tests and psychologists, and we went to different therapists and therapy. I mean, it was a nightmare. And I was working at a pretty high-powered multinational global bank, and was really kind of, I'd just been promoted to an almost executive position. And I so I was really making my mark and a female in the business where it was really not common. And in fact, when I got pregnant, there was definitely this rolling of the eyes, like, well, you know, we have a rollout coming out, you know, and it's like, okay. But afterwards, when I sort of brought forward with a lot of fear to my boss about the fact that, you know, this was in 2024. So this wasn't uh common, but I asked if I could work a day remotely, if I could take one of the new laptops that they were handing out because they were new, and maybe if I could get a BlackBerry, because that was also new at the time. But would it be possible just so I could manage everything that's going on with my son along with um my job? And I have to say that my boss didn't ask any follow-up questions. His comment, and I will never forget, is tell me what you need, I'll get it for you. And in 2024, sorry, in 2004, in an investment bank, by the way. So this is not known for their sort of collaborative um work from home style. And it was, and it was a big deal. It was challenging. Um, I had to take a couple of conference calls from a coffee shop in Little Italy in the Bronx because my kid's school that he had to go to for an hour was right in that area. So it was weird and it was uncomfortable. And I know many times there was a lot of uh just connection challenges, but we made it work and he was willing to make it work. And that was for me everything because it saved me having to decide can I continue in this job? It saved me from having to choose between work and my kid, you know. I mean, so that was that was a huge moment for me.

Manya Chylinski 5:56

Wow, that's such a wonderful response. And so much of what people want to hear when they walk to their boss's office with those very fears that you had, that's fabulous.

Tamar Cohen 6:10

It was fabulous because I he didn't have to. And even though, like on the human side, you know, yes, of course we should, and we're saying that with the 2026 lens, of course, but back then working from home was cumbersome and it was challenging, and there were security risks, you know, because we didn't have, you know, a lot of the systems in place. But I also can tell you a similar story on where it happened in the opposite.

The Pneumonia Ultimatum

Tamar Cohen 6:37

I bet you can. It's like when we plug one of the many. Um, but what you know, probably the most impactful one was um it's actually almost part of my burnout story. But um, you know, I'll just sort of fast forward where I had we were getting ready to deliver a pretty significant presentation to senior leadership, and uh we were um doing our run through to the executive of the group. I had pneumonia. I had 104 temperature, I was delirious, I couldn't move. And my boss said, if you are not in the office delivering this, I'm I'm letting you go. Like you have to come in, find a way, and you have to deliver the um the presentation. And so I got out of bed. I remember crawling to the shower and like just somehow getting myself together. I took a cab, went to the office, went to the meeting. I'm not sure I was even speaking English. I know that I was completely incoherent. I was dizzy. I was, and I remember and I'll never forget her face after delivering whatever it was I delivered. She was furious, furious, and was sort of trying to explain to her I shouldn't be here. Like I'm infecting all of you by virtue of being in this room with pneumonia, and uh went from there to the doctor to the hospital. Like it was it was that bad. And she still threatened to fire me because apparently I did such a poor job and really reflected poorly on the uh on the organization.

Manya Chylinski 8:13

Oh, that's a horrible story. Oh, I'm so sorry that you went through that. It's well, I guess I just I don't understand what goes through the mind of someone who would say something like that. And I guess some of this might tell us why you think a lot about employee experience and the future of work these days.

Tamar Cohen 8:37

It's honestly it's how I got here. When I reflect on the managers that I've had, when I reflect on how I've gotten my best work done, who's brought it out of me, who did it through fear, who did it through partnership and collaboration, I got very specific with myself on what makes it work. I then brought those best things into my leadership practice, right? So as I started leading, and I've made so many mistakes along the way, too. I remember at one point, even losing my temper at one point because just everything was going wrong. And, you know, one of the guys on my team, I mean, poor guy was just the messenger telling me something. And I yelled at him. And then afterwards, I went to him, brought him back into my office, and just please, please, please accept my, you know, and I just really apologized. I took him out for a drink that night when we resolved it, and you know, I just then realized, okay, so I have to work on my, you know, my temper, and I have to work on these things. And I kind of made sure that each mistake became a learning experience. I'm sure I still nobody's perfect. I'm not perfect. I know I still make mistakes, but I see it in offices, in workplaces all the time.

How Bad Managers Shape Leaders

Tamar Cohen 10:03

I'm seeing it so much more these days as well, with this uh kind of fear-based leadership, with this um approach to almost a dehumanization, right? So last week there was a um CEO of a of a major bank who referred to his employees as low-value uh human capital. And that was a term used to demonstrate how AI could provide more uh impact on doing some of the back office jobs. That's no, no, no. No, no, no. That's not once you kind of get into that way of speaking, you've now lost your connection to your people, to the people, to the very human beings that are delivering on your behalf that are actually making your company run.

Manya Chylinski 10:51

Right. And one thing that I always find frustrating about uh someone who says something like this is quite often they will get you know incandescently angry if someone treats them the way that they are treating uh people. And I I just find that so frustrating. I understand where that comes from, but it's so you said the right word though, dehumanization. And uh And these days with the rise of AI and this bubble we're in, I think there are leaders who seem to be grateful that they think they can replace people with AI.

Tamar Cohen 11:30

I yeah, you know, I uh yes, I think I I'm reflecting on that word grateful because I think that that's a really interesting term. They I think that's reflected directly in the 4 a.m., 6 a.m. emails that get sent out, the fact that all access is blocked immediately so that there's no opportunity to even allow for questions, let alone a conversation. These uh that word grateful, I think exactly right. You know, how do we deflect the discomfort that we know we're creating and sort of make it somebody else's problem? You're now let go, you've been told, you're shut off, that it is it is now your problem.

Manya Chylinski 12:12

Yes. And we're seeing so much of that right now, so many um layoffs for companies that are recording record profits. So that's the I will benefit from this, not you, which again is so frustrating given that all of us are human and we're bringing our human selves to work, and that dehumanization is just so frustrating to me. I it's not where my brain goes, so it's hard to understand how somebody's choosing to behave like that.

Tamar Cohen 12:43

And the thing is that most people want to work. Most people want to do good work. Most people want to show up and drive value and deliver value. They want to have purpose and meaning in what they do and how they do it. You know, so this idea of we're gonna give you back, you know, so much free time. Okay, but if I'm not working, I don't have money, I don't have anything to do with that free time. I want to work, I want to deliver, I want to contribute, I want to be able to play a role in the evolution of whatever. You know, of course, that's not all people, and you can always find the examples of some of the bad, the bad seeds, the bad apples. But at the end of the day, most people, at least in the research and the work that I've done, are genuinely excited to contribute. And we're taking that away, and we're creating even more distrust by leaning into these, into this negative language, into this me first approach, and then shutting the door on any ability for conversation. That's the thing, is like we're cutting it off at almost every single lane to be able to engage human to human. And that's a huge mistake. That's going, it's going to come back uh and bite us significantly.

Resilience, Trust, And Layoff Fallout

Manya Chylinski 14:05

And I see this as one of those examples of companies, uh organizations saying we're gonna do what we need to do. You, Ms., Mr. Whoever employee need to be resilient. We as an organization don't need to care about that, but you personally need to, and we'll do whatever we need to do, and you have to deal with it. So, what do you think a role of resilience plays in these kinds of interactions?

Tamar Cohen 14:33

So, I guess it depends if we're talking about the resilience of the company or the resilience of the employee. My personal definition of resilience, I think of myself as a resilient person. I think of resilience as the ability to keep moving forward, right? So even when you're on your heels, when things are, you know, sort of coming at you to recognize this isn't the way it will always be, but how can we figure out momentum? One of the things that I've was taught as a lesson early, early on is if you're moving, you can always change direction. If you're standing still, you're stuck. You know, it's analysis paralysis. So as long as you're moving, you can then figure things out and action generates action. And that's what I see resilience as. I think a resilient organization really operates under the same models, right? When you're cutting off access, when you're cutting off trust, when you're cutting off sort of future, because this is all short-term thinking and planning ultimately, the company is going to get stuck. That's when the bubbl that's when the bubbles burst, when you're not sort of thinking about what is the longevity or the sustainability of these policies, of these programs. There's um trust ultimately is a lagging indicator. You can't get it back, right? I mean, think about any relationship you've ever been in, right? When somebody breaks your trust, the amount of effort and work that it takes to build it back, and sometimes it never really does. There's now always that kind of like broken contract. And so organizations, even at the large kind of small end meta um, you know, perspective, but the big end too, you know, it's uh bringing trying to bring people back into the office with that same energy, that that level of productivity and efficiency and effectiveness. Um people are not going to want to do it. And they're they don't do it. They don't do it. In fact, there was a stat that I saw recently that um with all of these layoffs, there's short-term uh stock gains, and obviously the leaders get their names um mentioned that that brings up, you know, overall from a PR perspective. But um job performance actually drops 20% um overall. So you're actually not gaining the efficiencies that you think you are. You're actually losing every time you announce another layoff.

Manya Chylinski 16:55

That's an amazing statistic. And I wouldn't have guessed it was so much. And I get so frustrated when I hear about layoffs for this very reason, because I I have known for a while that it it's not usually, it doesn't usually end up making a difference for the company, a positive difference. Um and it it uh it disillusions the employees who stay, it they have to do more work. So now we're talking about potential burnout, maybe their reputation takes a hit, but it's all in service of the stockholders.

Tamar Cohen 17:30

It's all in service of the stockholders. Yep, basically, and especially these days, how can we reallocate our funds for more AI build-outs? And the amount of return that's required, by the way, to validate that spend is becoming almost an impossible threshold to meet. Can you explain more about that? Basically, the amount of money that is being spent on tokens and um access for companies to do the work that's required, plus the investment in AI data centers, plus all of the uh training on the systems that you need to do. There's a lot of data cleaning that has to be done in order to get this um AI work going, right? So there's all of this sort of quiet investment that has to happen. And the return that's required, I can get the number to fill in the blanks, but the amount of that's required to be returned is you know, for the billions that they're spending in order to actually return true profit and make these uh make these investments profitable is in the trillions. And that's an almost impossible ask.

The AI Bubble And ROI Reality

Manya Chylinski 18:44

Absolutely. Um so for we're we're in this AI bubble, we you know, at a certain level have to accept that it's happening. How can a company you know still nurture its people, uh keep its people, work with them, make sure their experience is as you know positive and supportive as can be while still thinking, how can we take advantage of this AI bubble? I mean, they have to be able to live together, right?

Tamar Cohen 19:13

They do. So I've seen a number of companies take some really smart

Build AI With Employees, Not To Them

Tamar Cohen 19:17

steps. The companies that I've seen really find interesting ways to keep their employees cohesive and keeping maintaining that trust. So the first thing that they do is they're transparent, right? So they don't lie and say, you know, we're never going to have layoffs, so don't worry. It's more about how do we actually bring this all together, right? How do we find the right AI tools that will help you do your job? How do we make sure that you are um you know brought to the table to help us understand how these different pieces connect so that there's they're part of the conversation? There's they do um a tremendous amount of training. So, how do we actually train, upskill, and bring people again to understand and actually contribute? And this is the third thing, how do they contribute to the AI strategy? So, from the contribution perspective, what I've seen, and it's it's been fantastic when um when it's done well, is to actually map out all of the processes that each team works on. What do they do? What is the structure? How does it come together? What are the intersection points? What are the current uh breakpoints, right? Where is the process undermining some of the outcomes? Where is there too much bureaucracy? How do we actually start to remediate that? Build the AI around those processes. You've now also, by the way, trained the employee to some extent because they now have laid out, mapped out what they're doing, how they do it. That then trains the model. They get to have that hands-on experience. And that becomes, again, a little bit less fear-based because now it's not something that's being done to them, it's being done with them. They can then see the role that they can take. And then the fourth thing that happens then is you know, pretty clear communication on what is the strategic change. So, as roles are going to evolve, what does that mean for you? For you, you know, if somebody is, you know, being AI'd out of a job to some extent, well, you know, what are the things that you do contribute that we can maybe reposition or restructure, right? It's not just about replacing, but how do we evolve? And I think that's really looking at those frameworks, the companies that have really leaned into each of those have done phenomenal jobs at retaining their employees and getting so much further faster than anything that's done by mandate, and certainly anything that's done out of uh fear.

Manya Chylinski 21:52

Right. Well, just listening to you talk about the four things that are really important, I could instantly get a feel. For, you know, yes, this company trusts its employees and that transparency and communication and actually asking people for their input about what's going on. Those are so important for anything. But I'm so glad to hear that there are some companies who are getting it right when they're thinking about the AI picture.

Tamar Cohen 22:18

They are. And what I'm seeing also is, you know, especially around the training, because training can very often just be a throwaway, or uh, you know, we're just going to create some little webinars and have you watch them in your off time. But they're creating very specific training moments. So it's either in the flow of work, they're um creating coaches and mentors so that there can be kind of in-the-moment kinds of questions, you know, either how do I or what do I do or how does this work? But then there's also training days. Um, I there's one company I know specifically, they created almost like a college um curriculum structure, and they designated half of every Friday to learning. So they're allowing employees to actually step away from the day-to-day on a Friday afternoon, which makes sense, to focus on their learning. And it's a dedicated time. And uh it's yeah, and it works for them. It's been working very well.

Manya Chylinski 23:17

What do you think is the one or two qualities that the leaders of these kind of companies have, that the leaders of the companies who were just laying people off and and not being transparent, et cetera, than those leaders have?

What Human-Led CEOs Do Differently

Tamar Cohen 23:34

I think there were really two things that I saw. The first one is these were smaller to mid-sized companies, you know, so maybe about 7,000 employees max, I think in uh 7 to 10,000 max. And so there was a connection, there was much more of a connection between the executive leadership, the CEO, and in some cases, even the board, with the company. Um, so there was definitely more of a connection in every case. The second um commonality was the CEO by design had a human-led approach. So they brought in as part of their operating style the idea that they want to lead with the employee, they want to lead with the customer. That very kind of like human experience structure was part of their founding culture and they leaned into it.

Manya Chylinski 24:36

Okay, I have so many things going through my head, but we are actually at the end of our time. So before we go, can you share with our listeners a little bit more about yourself and what you do and how they can reach you?

Halo Effect Resources And Closing

Tamar Cohen 24:51

Um, so uh Tamar Cohen, and uh I have founded a company called Halo Effect, and we really focus on the workplace and workforce. What we do is really focus on developing a culture, helping companies uh create behaviors that they want to see manifested in the organization, how teams can work best together to really develop an employee experience that ultimately drives customer experience. So, how employees can work together, how do we optimize the workplace for them so that you can then deliver on your ultimate customer outcomes. So that's what we've been uh focusing on. Uh for more information, I'm at my website is at uh my haloeffect.com. And we've got a number of assessments and tools there, a lot of articles and other content. So very easy to kind of download our perspective, learn something, hear a little bit about what we think about different topics going on. And yeah.

Manya Chylinski 25:49

Oh, excellent. Thank you so much for sharing that. I'll put links in the show notes to make it easier for folks to find you. And thank you again for this um fabulous conversation and very timely given what people are thinking about and afraid of right now. Yeah, I appreciate it. Thank you so much. And thank you to our listeners for checking out this episode of Notes on Resilience. We will catch you next time.