183: Zero Gray Leadership, with Kirk Driver

Ambiguity from leaders can teach people to hesitate, to gossip, and to lower their standards. 

I sit down with Kirk Driver, a 34-year veteran of the Fort Worth Police Department and the creator of the Zero Gray Leadership system, to get practical about what clear leadership looks like when the stakes are high and the pressure is real. 

If you lead a team, manage a department, or simply want a healthier culture at work, this conversation is packed with tools you can use immediately. 

We talk about why confidence is so often mistaken for arrogance, and how life experience, military training, and plain old maturity can shape the way a leader walks into a room. Kirk shares a simple but powerful framework he learned early on: mission, people, self. We talk about what that order means in the real world, how morale changes when leaders take initiative, and why self-care is not indulgent; it is operational. His point is clear: if you do not protect your resilience, your judgment and your relationships pay the price. 

Kirk’s distinction between head failures and heart failures gives leaders a fair way to coach, correct, and hold the line without crushing good people. 

Kirk Driver is a keynote speaker, a 34-year veteran of the Fort Worth Police Department (ret.), and the developer of the ZeroGray Leadership system to help organizations eliminate the internal organizational ambiguity that is often a barrier to team success, while promoting absolute accountability through all rank

Zero Gray Leadership: https://www.zerogray.com/

Email: kirk@kirkdriver.com 

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Transcript

Removing Ambiguity Starts With Standards

Kirk Driver 0:01

Biggest goals is to remove any and all ambiguity you can inside that circle. Because I can control that. What does that mean? That means clear set standards for my people and that I'm following those standards. It means that I don't let this guy slide on the standards because he's my biggest sales leader.

Meet Kirk Driver And Zero Gray

Manya Chylinski 0:25

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, Manya Chylinski. My guest today is Kirk Driver. He's a 34-year veteran of the Fort Worth Police Department, and he has developed the zero-gray leadership system to help organizational ambiguity, which can be the barrier to success. And we talked about ambiguity. We talked about the importance of being transparent. And we talked about what does it really mean to be a leader and what are the important things you need to be thinking about? I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. Kirk, I'm so glad we're talking today. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me on, Mania.

Confidence, Success, And Being Misread

Manya Chylinski 1:07

To get us started, I ask this of all my guests. What would the title of a book about you be if your worst enemy wrote it?

Kirk Driver 1:17

Oh wow. All right. Uh well, let me call my ex-wife and and and find that one out. If my worst enemy wrote it.

Manya Chylinski 1:24

Yeah.

Kirk Driver 1:25

Thought this was a PG program. It is PG, so your answer has to be uh that blankety blank is so full of himself.

Manya Chylinski 1:35

Okay.

Kirk Driver 1:36

Enemy, you know, my worst enemy. Go ahead.

Manya Chylinski 1:40

Well, yes, it is your worst enemy. So for me, the question is always thinking about who would my worst enemy be? But I feel like you maybe went to that person quickly in your head.

Kirk Driver 1:50

Oh, I know I've got several, you know. So that but the they it's a resounding theme. No, it's you know what? And that's it's interesting you bring that up because there's a difference in arrogance versus being confident, being outgoing, projecting. Okay. And also when you throw in being successful. My um, and then I I mentioned an extra, I say that in jest, but um, I remember years ago, so I um I'd gone through a bad divorce, got kids, you know, they were they were young, and I don't fast forward a couple years, and I've always had, and I'd heard this a long time ago, I've always had this sitting in the back of my head, success is the best revenge. And and and that doesn't mean I'm sticking it in your face that I'm successful. That means me go out and strive to be successful, doing everything I can, focusing on making myself better in in all realms, my you know, physical, financial, status, but not in the I'm trying to get to the elite guys, but but I'm trying to become a better person all the way around. So fast forward a couple years, and I'd I'm in a new relationship, I've got a new, I literally moved into a new house. I uh got a new a new vehicle, and I was about to promote. And and I had the children, so the ex comes over to pick them up, and they're like, Mommy, look at daddy's new house, and you know, isn't that cool? He has a pool and you know, all that stuff. And the next time I I see her to make a kid pass, she is just ugly to me. And then and and for like the next two or three times, it's just ugly. I mean, just total, just really ugly to me, being a jerk. And finally, after about three or four times, I called her out on this. I said, Why are you being such a jerk to me? We've been cool for the longest time. And she's like, Suck it up, don't be a you know, blankety blank, et cetera, and storms off. And then she calls me a couple days later and she said, You know, I've been thinking about it, and you're right, I have been. She said, When the kids showed me your house, that just kind of snapped it. She said, I expected you to do well after we after we split. I just didn't expect you to do this well this quickly. And and yeah, I'm not doing this, and that's the beauty of that success is the best revenge. You focus on your success, it takes you out of stewing on that, you know, what went sour. And so she's like, I didn't expect this from you. And and inside I'm thinking, well, I didn't do this for you, and I'm not even thinking of you when I'm doing this. I mean, I'm not sure, not to be crude, but you know, you're well, I think horribly of you. Well, I don't think of you. And so that's when I come up with that blankety blank thinks these.

Manya Chylinski 4:55

Yes. Well, what's interesting, you talked about confidence and being sure of yourself and and how it can be hard for other people to understand where that's coming from. And I think sometimes we ascribe arrogance or that someone is doing something at us, sort of rather than they're just doing it. And I think it's pretty easy, depending on the circumstances, to misunderstand that if you don't know the person very well.

Kirk Driver 5:26

Sure. And and a little background on me, I was a nerdy band kid at high school. Okay. I played played football in middle school and and and the start of high school, but ended up gravitating toward the band. And I was a concert bassoonist of all things. Six foot three, skinny as a rail, big old nerd, big nerd. And I joined the Marine Corps out of high school, and that changed things because the Marine Corps, they strip you down, strip everyone down. That's that's their formula. We're gonna strip you all down where you are worthless. Well dung at the bottom of the ocean, as they say. Okay, and then they build you back up as a team to where by the time you graduate boot camp, man, you got pride in your step. I'm a United States Marine. And you come out, and people are like, oh, he's he's a Marine, he thinks he's all that, you know. Well, that's what they put into you. It's confidence in your abilities. Now, over the years, that's been tempered over the last what 38 years, that's been tempered with maturity and growth and humility that comes along with that. But at the same time, when I walk into a room, yeah, I'm scanning the room. I'm I'm as they say, on the room.

Manya Chylinski 6:43

Yes, yes, absolutely. And walk in the room like you belong, even if you don't think you belong.

Kirk Driver 6:50

Exactly. And I will tell you, I have had imposter syndrome for years because I started stepping into rooms that were outside my comfort zone.

Manya Chylinski 7:02

Yes, I so hear you. And I have a sort of switch. Like the switch is okay, now I'm on. I'm in this room, I need to be this person, which is a very different person than I am at home alone, or if we're just sitting we're out at dinner.

Kirk Driver 7:20

Exactly. And so would you say that person is arrogant? Well, no, but they portray an air of confidence and wagger, if you will.

Manya Chylinski 7:33

Right. And someone could interpret it as arrogance, where in in where in my head, I'm like, okay, like how how much longer do I have to be like this?

Kirk Driver 7:43

And I get that.

Manya Chylinski 7:46

Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that.

Mission, People, Self As A Leader

Manya Chylinski 7:49

And everyone's had a moment in their life that changes how they think about being a leader or how they think about taking care of other people. What was one of those moments for you?

Kirk Driver 8:01

I think the first one I was in um so I was in the Marine Reserve. I got activated to go to Desert Store. I was about uh early 20s. And I'm I'm a sergeant in the Marine Corps, and uh we're overseas. Um I'm not gonna tell the whole long story, but I end up running a detail on the short on the on the port at the port offloading cargo. And uh and I came into a situation where I made a command decision. We were eating cold chow three meals a day, and I had an opportunity to to get us warm food on the ship that came in. They have a galley, and I'm you know, I go in to use the restroom inside there, you know, use a washroom, and it's like it's a galley and it's empty, but you know, hey, you know, it's and and they're like, Yeah, it's well, can we use it? Yeah, just sign a chip and we're good. And I talked to the ship's captain, and but I but I did this on my own, which and so all of our guy, and I shared that, so all of our 70 some odd people were going to, you know, 10, 15 at a time, rotating through. And then the captain who was over the entire pirate saw this. He kind of flipped out, like, who authorized this? You know, so I get called to meet him up in front of him, you know, sir, yes, sir. And you know who told you you could do this? Did you do this? Yes, I did. Who told you you could do this? I took it on myself. Well, explain yourself. And I said, you know, guys are eating cold meals. I saw an opportunity to get them a hot meal, and and frankly, their morale is skyrocketed since then. Sure. We talked for a little while, and uh in that conversation, he says, Let me tell you something. He said three words mission, men, me. In that order, you take care of your mission. That's that's what we're here for. You take care of your personnel. This is Marines in wartime. It's it was men, but translate that to you know, corporate America. You take care of your core mission, you take care of your people, find out their needs, you you you learn about them, you listen to them, okay, you watch them, and then you take care of yourself. You have to have self-care on the back of that. So mission men, me, or you know, mission people self, you know, however you phrase it. And that stuck with me forever. And so every time I've been in a leadership role, we got to take care of the the mission, I gotta take care of my personnel. What what drives them? Intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. If I can tap into their intrinsic, oh that's that's far greater than any extrinsic value you could you could feed them. Okay. And then take care of yourself. And that taking care of yourself, it means when I'm stressed out, I have to take time to decompress. I have to I have to work out. I movement, movement is essential for me. I sit to, you know, two or three days, I feel like sludge. And and that creeps into my mental awareness and everything else. So um that self-care is just huge. But that was the that was the first one that really struck home for me.

Manya Chylinski 11:26

Yes. So were you in trouble?

Kirk Driver 11:30

No, he said it actually, and I thought, man, I didn't, and and I think he thought at first when I shot up, you know, who told you you could do this? It's like, sorry, I took it on myself. Well, why did you do that? And it's like, because we're getting cold meals. We've been here three weeks, and and we have two MREs, you know, the pre-packaged military food, and a sandwich truck comes with pita bread on and some mystery meat that we don't even know it is by a dude who don't even speak English, right? Or in Saudi Arabia for crime island. So, and and and and that was it like mystery meat, mystery cheese on pita, here you go. Not and not even vegetables, and it's like, here's an opportunity to get my guys, and like the you know, the the meals were things like turkey and dressing and mashed potatoes and green beans, and you know, like like a good hearty meal. And these guys were again, they loved it. And when this captain, when I explained that to him, he's like, You did a good thing, and and good on you for taking the initiative, and and and I appreciate you looking after your people.

Manya Chylinski 12:37

Yeah, nice, very nice. Well, I was worried you got in trouble, so I'm glad you didn't.

Kirk Driver 12:41

Yeah, I thought I was going to, but no, I didn't.

Procedural Justice And Public Trust

Manya Chylinski 12:44

Um okay.

Kirk Driver 12:45

But there's been so many leadership lessons. A lot of people don't realize. So I've got 34 years law enforcement, and I rose up through the ranks to captain. It's the highest rank in my agency that you can test to the rest, above that are appointed ranks, and it's all it's political at that point up. And people in general get that the military breeds leaders, they're constantly training, whether it's your your enlisted ranks or your officer ranks, they're always pushing leadership training. People don't realize that police and fire service do the same because for for a couple reasons. Number one, we roll up on the scene of this major accident, or or you know, houses on fire, or you know, robbery or whatever. We have to the even the base officer has to lead the people who are there. When the cops show up, everyone knows do what the cop says. Well, you just cop needs to know what to say.

Manya Chylinski 13:44

Right, right.

Kirk Driver 13:46

It's not just a policy thing on okay, we are going to do XYZ as far as the law enforcement aspect, but but especially in today's era, it's not back to, and I'm gonna date myself, but back to the old dragnet, Jack Webb, just the facts, ma'am. Yes, watched on Nick at night, right? Way back in the day. Um, it's it's not that anymore. It's we have to have a relationship with the community. There's a thing in law enforcement circles now called procedural justice. And basically what that means is yeah, you're going to jail, but I'm still, or you're getting the ticket or whatever. But I but if I explain to you the why, rather than just snatch you up and I'll tell you when you get there, well, that there's a there's a difference. And and getting and and if you're telling the community why you're doing those things rather than having that distance, makes things so much better. And you're seeing an evolution in law enforcement towards that.

Manya Chylinski 14:49

Right. And it's, you know, a couple things you said. One is I think, you know, as a civilian, when somebody in a uniform shows up, fire, police, EMS, it feels like, okay, great. There's somebody here who knows how to deal with this thing that I've never dealt with before. Even if, in fact, you've never dealt with it before. But we do look to you and folks like that as the as the people who know what's going on and the leaders. So it's good that them to hear that that is also something that's encouraged and discussed, that you are a leader in these, in these kind of roles. And I did, I had an experience where I saw somebody who was being arrested. And well, I believe they were arrested. I didn't see the whole encounter, but they kept saying, Well, what why? What did what did I do? And the officer wouldn't tell them. And but they kept saying, But I didn't I didn't do anything wrong. What are you telling? What are you saying that I did? And um, and they never said, and just sort of made sure the person left with them. And there were a lot of us around, and everybody was a little dumbfounded, and and it just was so frustrating because maybe they couldn't say it because there were other people around. I I know nothing of the situation other than I could imagine being in that person's shoes and feeling maybe she absolutely knew what she had done, but maybe she had no idea.

Kirk Driver 16:21

Well, and okay, so to that, regardless whether that person knew what they did, what about all the bystanders? I don't know what I did, I don't know what I did. She may very well, however, so she snatched up the rest of the people. Oh man, he snatched her up, wouldn't even tell her what she did. Whereas if the officer you did this and that's why we're doing this, the rest of the public knows it. You know, that's that's kind of like if we're fighting someone, they teach us the words coming out of your mouth are stop fighting, stop fighting. Because the rest of the public knows, oh, this person's fighting the police. Yeah.

Manya Chylinski 17:02

Well, we're getting to into topics like transparency. And as a leader, I mean, in this case, we're sort of looking at the police officer, the fire department as a as the leader in the situation, but in any situation, as a leader, if you are clear about what's happening or why, it's so much easier for people to accept it or try to make changes or what have you if they know what's actually happening.

Kirk Driver 17:32

Interesting that you mentioned

Ethics, Standards, And Moral Courage

Kirk Driver 17:34

that. So uh I retired March 1st and I started doing keynote speaking, and I've developed a leadership system that I call zero gray leadership. And it's about that exact thing that you're talking about. Clear, transparent communications, removing the ambiguity, the ambiguity, uh zero gray. So, you know, I'm gonna take you way back, and and I've been told, oh, people don't relate to this anymore, but Stephen Covey, seven habits. Uh, it's it's back in the early 90s.

Manya Chylinski 18:06

Still out there, yeah.

Kirk Driver 18:07

So, and and one of the things he talks about is you draw this circle. Everything inside the circle I can control. Everything outside the circle is outside my control. Outside the circle, there's a ton of ambiguity. Inside the circle, per my leadership system. You're your one of your biggest goals is to remove any and all ambiguity you can inside that circle, because I can control that. What does that mean? That means clear set standards for my people and that I'm following those standards. It means that I don't let this guy slide on the standards because he's my biggest sales leader and pushing the numbers forward. But yet, Tammy down the hall in accounting, I hammer her for the same thing that I'm letting him slide on. You know what I mean? It's like the the star sales guy, he uh he gets drunk and chews out a vendor one night at a conference. Okay. Ah, but man, he's putting the numbers up. And if and if I fire him, which it is a fireable up pet fence, if I fire him, I'm gonna lose out on those numbers. And I say, have your ethics set ahead of time. And and it starts, all of this starts, and I've said this numerous times. You can't lead anyone else. Don't even think you're gonna lead anyone else until you get your own moral compass set. Gotta have your morals aligned and and and and you need to know ahead of time. You need to set back by yourself, game plan, do it with a friend. But what am I gonna do if I encounter this situation? What am I gonna do if the boss says, hey, I need you to fudge these numbers? Yes, it's illegal. Yes, you could go to jail if you're caught, or even not, you know, even if it's something that, okay, yeah, you know, let's say Jane and John are doing the same work, and Jane and John are pretty equal in performance. But John, the boss gives him a six percent raise, and Jane only gets you see the difference, but it's having that moral courage to say to your boss, hey, why are we doing this? And it could be flipped, it could be the other way. But the point being, finding that when you see the disparity, call it out and and remove that ambiguity.

Manya Chylinski 20:27

I think for some people that's really hard to stick to their moral compass. And you know, we think about now you've got whistleblowers, and but I I find that an interesting term because these are the people who are sticking to their moral compass and for the most part, and saying, hey, this is this is wrong. And we don't always reward that.

Kirk Driver 20:50

Correct, correct. We don't, and oftentimes they get punished. Oh, this guy's making trouble. Well, the next opportunity I get to find a policy violation, I'm gonna get rid of him. And what I say, you know, because so put yourself in that position. You're working in you're working for a company, you're making decent money, and you see something wrong. And if you say something about it, you're gonna get fired.

Manya Chylinski 21:12

Yeah.

Kirk Driver 21:13

I gotta pay the bills.

Manya Chylinski 21:15

Right. And we put people in these awful positions.

Kirk Driver 21:20

So, how do we avoid that? I think it comes down to the individual to have the responsibility. It's easier to it's easier to say no when you've got the financial means. You know, when I came on the department this years ago, uh our chief, he came from LAPD, and this guy was just, I mean, man, he was a command and control hardliner. But he famously told his deputy chiefs in it, and people still talk about this. He said to them, Don't ever take a chief's job unless you can afford to walk away. Because if you can't, then city management owns you. And and you will be put in an ethical dilemma. And your finances are going to come to bear on your decision. So I say, especially to the younger guys and gals out there, save, save, save. Get that six months. I know, you know, oh, you know, they say you should have six months to a year of savings behind you. Well, in case you lose your job. Well, how about this? Let's make it more personal. Get that six months to a year of savings under your belt sitting in there so that you can be true to your moral compass without fear of going hungry, should you lose your job overdoing the right thing.

Head Mistakes Versus Heart Mistakes

Manya Chylinski 22:35

Oh, so interesting. I'm curious how this relates. So on your website, I read you talk about head failures and heart failure.

Kirk Driver 22:44

Failure of the head versus failure of the heart. Okay, so let me let me give you the backstory on this. Harking back to my Marine Corps days, they have the thing called the commander's intent speech. When the commander comes in, new guy, new commander comes in, he takes charge of a unit. He or she gives a speech, and that is basically here's our mission, here's what we're striving for, and here's your guardrails. If you find yourself outside of all training, all policy, and everything else, if you do these things, you're gonna be okay. You might get scuffed up a little bit, but you're gonna be okay. I heard about that when I started moving into leadership positions in the police department. I started giving my commanders intent speech. And there's several parts to it. The first well, not the first, but the second part of this, the first is just for you know police officers, okay? Um, but the second part is universally applicable. I believe there are mistakes of the head and mistakes of the heart. A mistake of the head, my heart is in the right place. I'm trying to do the right thing, and I've violated policy. Okay. Well, to me, that could be a training issue. It could be a policy failure, but this person is trying to do the right thing. And I say policy failure, meaning the policy neglects the need to do this type of, you know, do this, et cetera. You know, well, it's if we're talking black and white and we're stepping outside of the rules, if you will, then well, do we need to keep that rule? That's that's that's a valid question. Or do we need to have you know a clause written in, okay, in this case, you know, you can violate. So that's a mistake of the head. And the point is, the intent of the person making that mistake is to try to do the right thing by the customer, the client, the the company, whatever have you, he or she is trying to do right. Okay. Mistake of heart, on the other hand, is it's wrong. You knew it was wrong. And almost 100% of the time it's for personal gain. I can't steal from the company. I can't take off hours early and go to the bar or go to the golf course and put that I worked eight hours that day on my timesheet. Those are mistakes of the heart. And in my world, I've got no use for that. Those type of issues, uh, that that when an employee is doing that uh disciplinary action, and if we can't correct it, they're gone. And and most of the time, they're gone. Right.

Manya Chylinski 25:28

That's I like that distinction of we all make mistakes, absolutely, and thinking about what is the motivation, that's not the right word, but well, and I think I said this to you as before we started recording, which is this is exact absolutely head versus heart. Many people say my name wrong. But if I believe they're trying to say my name correctly, then I'm fine with that. If I believe someone's trying to be a jerk, then then I'm upset about it. But you know, I will answer to a lot of things that are not exactly the name Maya.

Kirk Driver 26:08

Sure. I

How To Reach Kirk Driver

Kirk Driver 26:09

get it.

Manya Chylinski 26:09

Um, Kirk, we are at the end of our time, and I'm sad to say that because I'm so enjoying our conversation. Before we log off, please tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself and what you do and how they can reach you.

Kirk Driver 26:24

All right. So I've developed a leadership system called Zero Gray Leadership, and it is about removing all the ambiguity in your in your organization and in your workspace. Uh, you can reach me at zerogray.com. That's the American spelling, uh, G-R-A-Y. So zerogray.com. And uh there's contact there. You can also uh email me at kirk at kirkdriver.com.

Manya Chylinski 26:49

Excellent. I will put those links in the show notes to make it easier for folks to get in touch with you. And thank you again. I have so enjoyed our conversation.

Kirk Driver 26:57

Oh, and you second part of that, you ask, What am I doing? I I do keynote speaking. So right now, uh bread and butter is keynote speaking on this topic. And I'm also developing out workshops and small team coaching to support all this.

Manya Chylinski 27:13

Excellent. All right, thank you for that.

Kirk Driver 27:14

Thank you very much. I enjoyed our time.

Manya Chylinski 27:16

Yeah. And I want to say thank you to our listeners for joining us, and we will catch you next time.