189: The EQ Advantage, with Rich Hua

If you’ve ever watched a brilliant, high-IQ leader stall out, you’ve seen the real bottleneck: the way they relate to people. I sit down with Rich Hua, founder of the EPIQ Leadership Group and former chief EQ evangelist at Amazon, to talk about emotional intelligence as a practical leadership skill that improves trust, influence, resilience, and business results. 

Rich shares his own journey from socially awkward, achievement-driven nerd to someone who had to learn empathy, vulnerability, and connection the hard way through marriage, parenting, and leading large teams. 

We dig into what EQ actually is, why so many corporate cultures over-index on IQ, and how that becomes a ceiling at senior levels. Rich also breaks down how he made EQ feel relevant inside a highly data-driven environment, including the moment an internal talk unexpectedly sparked massive demand and helped grow an EQ community across Amazon. The takeaway is clear: emotional intelligence is not a personality trait you either have or don’t have. It’s a learnable set of skills, and believing otherwise is one of the most costly limiting beliefs in leadership. 

Then we connect EQ to one of the biggest workplace pressures right now: AI transformation. Rich explains why most AI initiatives fail for human reasons like fear, mistrust, and weak communication, and why executives often misread how employees actually feel. We also talk about stress and decision-making, including how unmanaged pressure can shrink clear thinking, and what EPIQ leadership looks like when EQ and IQ work together. 

If you want to lead change, keep your people engaged, and make smarter calls under pressure, this conversation will give you language, tools, and a path forward.

Rich Hua is a keynote speaker and the founder of the EPIQ Leadership Group, which helps executives and organizations build adaptable, resilient, and innovative cultures that are both high-performing and highly human. 

Website: https://www.richardhua.co/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richhua/

Email: rich@epiqleadership.com

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Transcript

What Makes Leaders Inspirational

Rich Hua 0:01

Inspirational leaders, which means that they had high expectations and they had high care and high trust. Right? When you put those two together, of course, that's where you're gonna get the best out of your people. They're gonna be the most loyal, they'll have a bias for action, they'll be willing to go the extra mile.

Manya Chylinski 0:20

Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience. I'm your host, Manya Chylinski. My guest today is Rich Hua. He's the founder of the Epic Leadership Group and an expert in building emotionally intelligent cultures of innovation at scale. He is formerly the chief EQ evangelist and worldwide head of epic leadership at Amazon. And he was even the expert advisor to the Amazon Alexa team as they were working with Alexa Plus on empathy and emotional intelligence. We had a fabulous conversation about EQ, how important it is, how to get it. I think you're really going to appreciate this conversation. Rich, I'm so glad to see you here today. Thank you for being my guest.

Rich Hua 1:06

It is a pleasure to be here with you, Manya. I really look forward to our conversation.

A Personal EQ Origin Story

Manya Chylinski 1:10

To get us started, what would the title of a book be about you if your worst enemy wrote it?

Rich Hua 1:21

I love that question. My worst enemy. The insult would be, wow, what a nerdy guy. You know, I mean, he really had very low EQ and didn't understand people. It was socially awkward, had a lot of issues. But in the end, he got revenge because he actually developed the exact skills that were needed to be able to thrive and succeed. And so it'd be a little tongue-in-cheek, but uh that might be my worst enemy or my best friend who who actually came up with that. Could be either one.

Manya Chylinski 1:55

Oh, I love it. And I appreciate your story because you I think you learned emotional intelligence, maybe because it was something you were struggling with.

Rich Hua 2:07

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I'd say, you know, I'm a total nerd uh and very proud of it, actually. I grew up with uh very sort of uh much focus on the cognitive, you know, IQ side of things. And a little bit about me, I I admit I came to America when I was four years old and I came from Taiwan, and I was incredibly socially awkward. I didn't understand how to make friends, I didn't understand the culture, I didn't even speak English. And so I had a really tough time. And so for uh several decades, I actually really avoided everything that had to do with emotions or feelings, which of course hurt my ability to make friends and get to know people. And so I focused a lot on IQ and I realized, you know, I'm actually pretty smart. I'm actually a super nerd, right? I worked really hard at school, I got straight A's, I actually got a perfect score on the SAT. Uh, I got into every college I applied to, studied electrical engineering, computer science at Berkeley, and I was ready to be, you know, live the great greatest alert nerd's life. Uh and then I did something that completely messed up my plan. I got married. And uh my wife really didn't uh didn't really like that whole nerdy side. Uh I mean she she enjoyed the the knowledge part of it, but she was looking for something else like emotional connection, empathy, uh, vulnerability, understanding. And I didn't have those capabilities. And so I needed to learn those in my 20s and and ongoing ever since then, in order to have the kind of relationship I wanted to have with her. And then when I had kids with my kids, and then ultimately with you know all the people that I was really trying to connect with, work with, and support.

Manya Chylinski 3:49

Right. Wow. Okay. You answered my next question, and I'm hoping you have a second answer for this very same question, which is that is clearly a moment in your life where you had to think about your life and things a little bit differently. So you've also, I'm sure, had moments where you have to think about being a leader or how to take care of other people differently from the way you were doing it. What's another moment like that for you?

Rich Hua 4:19

Yeah, um, there is actually a really uh poignant moment.

Learning Emotions Through Mission Work

Rich Hua 4:22

So um, right out of college, instead of going directly into engineering, I actually became a missionary. Uh and so I wound up serving for several years in the Philippines and then here in the San Francisco Bay Area for another couple of decades. So my first job and career was actually working with people's deepest emotions and hopes and fears and and and and and and and you know, desires and purpose. So uh, you know, the IQ side was grossly insufficient. I was trying to analyze and help people purely sort of cognitively, and I realized that, oh my goodness, that's like 20% of the whole thing. The other 80% was this thing called feelings and emotions and desires and pains and challenges. And so, from a career perspective, I realized that I was really lacking in this whole realm of uh dealing with and understanding people's emotions. And so, so EQ really, uh, you know, I use Daniel Goleman's definition, right? It's self-awareness, it's self-management, then it's empathy and social awareness, and then relationship management. And so that became a vast majority of my job in helping other people. And I also led actually a large organization, like thousands of people all over the Pacific Northwest. Uh, and so working with all those other leaders, I realized too that uh, you know, a great strategy and great data and all that, hey, that's fine, but that doesn't actually motivate people. What motivates people are the things really on the emotional side that really have deeper meaning to them.

Manya Chylinski 5:54

Wow. I'm so curious. As someone who was leading a large group of people and you were thinking and talking about EQ and emotional intelligence, and how does that fit into the corporate world we have today that seems to not want to talk about emotions?

Rich Hua 6:13

Yeah.

Why IQ-First Leaders Get Stuck

Rich Hua 6:14

Um, so that's uh I love that question because uh, you know, for my career trajectory, I did that for about 23 years, and then I pivoted back into the corporate tech world um basically uh, you know, over a decade ago, about 13 years ago. And so I went to Oracle and I went to AWS. And at those places, I was actually uh I saw something that I'd seen uh really pervasively in my previous role too, which is no matter what uh amount of experience you have, what level of leader you have, all the way up to C-level executive, most people indexed very heavily on IQ. But the thing holding them back was never that. It was something else. It was on the EQ realm. It was their lack of awareness, it was how people perceived them, it was not being able to influence, it was not having kind of empathy that would inspire other people. There's something on that. And uh to quote Marshall Goldsmith, in almost every case, what got them here won't get them there. And so maybe they were able to get to a certain level, even a C level uh level, uh, you know, sort of role with IQ, but then then they were stuck. And it was EQ. And uh so I saw it everywhere I went, and so I started teaching people those skills. And uh and Amazon really blew up, right? It went from me going around talking about it to literally a movement that uh engaged one and a half million people, all said and done over a seven-year period. And so it was both within Amazon and also a lot of Amazon customers that I got to work with all over the world. And so what I realized is that um very data-driven, IQ-focused, engineering type, nerdy people like myself, actually all do want to be more emotionally literate and proficient. They just one were never taught it uh in school, and two, they weren't really given permission to express it. And three, they didn't understand the connection between that and their success, right? They all want to be successful, and there's a myth that, well, if I'm kind or I'm empathetic or I'm self-aware, then that will actually be a detriment to my goals rather than something that actually accelerates me towards them. And so I was able to draw the line between these skills and your success and meeting your goals. And it's like, hey, winner, winner, chicken dinner, right? Like people start going, wow, let's go for it. This this is this is awesome. So that's that's a lot of what I was able to do.

Manya Chylinski 8:41

Okay. I imagine you didn't go from it's Monday and everybody's you know, perhaps struggling with their EQ. And then on Tuesday you tell everybody about it, and on Wednesday, everybody wants to take the class. What did you say, or how did you help people understand how important this is?

Rich Hua 9:01

Yeah.

How EQ Became A Movement

Rich Hua 9:02

So um, you know, at the end of the day, uh, a question that I would often ask audiences is how many of us here would like to be more successful? I mean, you know, everyone raises their hand. How many of us would like to be happier? You know, most people raise their hand. How many of us like to be healthier? Most people raise their hand. And then my response would be I have something that can help you get there.

Manya Chylinski 9:24

Right.

Rich Hua 9:24

And so I always started with the goals. It wasn't like, would you like some EQ training? Would you like to be more emotionally intelligent? I mean, you know, people like, no thanks. That sounds kind of scary, or either scary or or irrelevant. And so I start with a goal. And when I met with senior leaders, especially, the billion-dollar question I'd always ask is what business challenges could be solved if there were greater connection and understanding, right? Uh, or resilience, fill in the blank, right? And so, you know, leaders are trying to solve business problems. They're not paid to be nice people, they're not paid to make people happy, they're they're not, you know, they're paid to actually solve business problems. And so when I brought it to them and I helped them realize you can solve your business problems by actually being a more empathetic, inspiring, connected leader, they're like, oh, awesome, that's great. Right. And so that was how I did it. Um, and the um really the the sort of origin story to Amazon was I gave a talk at our sales kickoff back in 2020. And the reality is that people thought it was kind of a goofy topic and the organizers weren't sure who was going to attend. So they put me in a room for a hundred people. And um, you know, I'm like, hey, I'm just happy to have the opportunity because no one's ever talked about this before, right? This is like a brand new idea and topic. The day before the talk, so many people tapped on wanting to attend my session that the organizers called me up and said, uh, we need to put you in a room for, you know, like slightly more people. And they put me in a room for a thousand people. And it wound up being standing room only. People turned away at the door. And at the end, I got a standing ovation for like five minutes. It was like a seminal moment, right? And then it wound up being the highest-rated and highest attended breakout. And then the next year at uh Sales Kickoff 2021, the same thing happened, but with 2,000 people. And so this provided a data point. Like people are really looking for this, they appreciate it, they want more of it. And uh, what actually happened is people started coming coming up to me and saying, Can I help you? Like, you have started something here. I want to join this thing. And I didn't even know what the thing was, but it was actually a movement. Uh, it was an EQ movement to help people be happier, healthier, more successful and deliver business results. Right. And so we we had dinner in Chicago in 2021, it was like me and about a dozen people, and that eventually grew to a community of 70,000 people across all parts of Amazon globally. And so it was a flywheel. This community actually really created uh the conditions for a more emotionally intelligent leadership culture uh in a very large organization.

Manya Chylinski 12:01

Right. Right. And once it's sure there was a tipping point in some in there somewhere where a certain number of people had it, and then it probably just exploded to um to more folks. That's amazing. That's a tremendous number of people to have impacted.

Rich Hua 12:17

Yeah, yeah, it is. I feel incredibly grateful, right, that I had the chance to to do that. And and to your point about tipping point, um, I say the launch was that talk in 2020. That was the genesis. And we had this sort of theory of change that if you can get about 20% of the people in any organization to actually behave differently, that actually tips it. And more and more people do that. And now that has to be across all levels of leadership, can't just be like grassroots or even the senior, can't be all the top and all the bottom. It has to be kind of across the spectrum of roles and leadership levels. And so what we did was we created these uh micro and mesocultures all across the company, right? Like Amazon is a very, very strong macro culture, right? It's defined by the 16 leadership principles and it's very, very well known. It's kind of world famous, you know, right? Customer obsession, deliver results, earn trust, bias for action, et cetera, et cetera. So we were creating these cultures that aligned with that and supported those. But there are their own versions of it, sometimes across organizations that were tens of thousands of people. Because the leader at the very top, all the way to the uh people and you know, sort of who are newer and less tenured, all understood that behaving in a highly emotionally intelligent way would actually help the organization thrive and their colleagues be more successful. Um, so once we got, I'd say the tipping point was probably getting a good number of VPs who are leading large organizations to say, yes, I want to sponsor this. I believe in it. This is gonna actually uh make a difference.

Manya Chylinski 13:54

Right, absolutely. You never want to be the only one of something, the only one who's championing something in the organization or the only one who looks a certain way in the organization because you don't you have to represent the whole class, and it's harder to make a change until you start bringing people on board. Yeah, yeah, that's right. Exactly. Absolutely. Okay.

EQ Is Learnable Not A Trait

Manya Chylinski 14:16

So, what question about emotional intelligence do you think we're still not asking?

Rich Hua 14:22

I think it's a similar question to what people have been not asking the whole time, um, which is um why is this so critical to my personal and professional success and the success of everyone else around me? It's considered a nice to have rather than why is this critical? Why is this absolutely essential to me being able to thrive as a as a person and as a leader? Right. And so what I did was I uh put that before a lot of people. They're like, consider this, look at the data, right? Understand the research and also just your own personal life, think about what is holding you back from that there you want to get to. And again, very few people said, Well, you know, I'm not smart enough. I'm just I'm just lacking IQ. It's always something else, right? And so when they did that, you know, just even simple reflection, they realized, okay, there's something that we can help you with. And the other thing that went along with it, realizing that emotional intelligence is a set of skills, it is not just something you're born with, and that's one of the biggest myths, right? A lot of people like, well, you either have it or you don't. Oh, you know, that person over there is really empathetic. I just don't, I just don't have that gene. So sorry. Rather than go, no, no, no, no. I mean, there is a genetic component, but the vast majority of how we behave and how we, you know, exhibit these is in fact a skill set. And you can learn them and it will be beneficial to you and everyone else around you.

Manya Chylinski 15:55

Right. And I've heard that as well. Oh, you're great at that. I'm not fill in the blank, I'm not emotionally intelligent, I'm not creative, I'm not whatever. And I I just I always find that such a fascinating self-analysis because it's always putting themselves in a bad light. It's always you're doing this amazing thing, and I could never do that thing.

Rich Hua 16:19

Yeah, yeah. It's it's like a limiting belief, right? And so I I want to bust

EQ As The Key To AI Change

Rich Hua 16:23

that myth. Now, now the other thing, actually, too, in today's world, specifically, that people are not asking is how is emotional intelligence relevant to AI transformation? Yes. Right? Everybody and their grandmother is trying to do this thing called AI transformation. And the reality is 96% of organizations are failing at it, right? That is based on Atlassian's uh, you know, recent report. They found that 4% of companies are actually experiencing some kind of transformation. 96% are not. And and the big uh the biggest reason is not they're lacking technology or they don't have the right, you know, large language models, or they're using, you know, uh uh basically one type of technology versus another. It's not. It's it's squarely in the human realm, right? It's things like lack of earning trust. It's things like, you know, we we are not communicating in a way that allows us to actually aggregate the benefits we're individually getting out of AI and creating brand new workflows and ways that we, you know, collaborate, right? It's not providing the space uh to be able to actually learn and practice and experiment, even fail so that we can you know fail at the right scale, so that we can move forward together. It's all these human elements. And unfortunately, a lot of people are are just you know, they're they're running the IQ playbook. You know, some somebody at the top is like, I've got a great strategy, everyone should just do it. I'm really smart, you know. Just go ahead and go with the plan, you know, and now realizing, you know, this isn't exactly what people are feeling and thinking. And I mean, the the research is just astounding, right? It's it's um like there's a recent research uh from from Writer, it's an AI company. Um, and they found that almost 30% of people admitted to actively uh sabotaging their company's AI efforts. And um, and you know, I mean, no surprise why, because they they think or they fear that, well, if we adopt AI, then guess what? I'm gonna lose my job. So uh I'm not gonna go along with it. In fact, I'm gonna oppose it. Right.

Manya Chylinski 18:31

And some companies, some companies have even said, we're we're we want to replace you with AI, we want to replace this process with AI, and not talked about how can we reskill you? How can we keep you and have AI improve on what you're doing? So many people talk about having AI replace humans.

Rich Hua 18:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, and uh, you know, that that tends to um uh make Wall Street happy and boost your stock price uh temporarily, but it definitely does not earn trust or or um you know that sense of um long-term commitment to what you're trying to do, right? And there isn't there is an empathy gap, right? Like 76% of executives believe their employees are really enthusiastic about AI. Um but boss but but Boston Consulting Group found the actual answer, the number is actually 31%. So so three-quarters of executives think everyone's super happy, but like only one third really are. So there's definitely a gap between what's really happening and you know what leaders think. And so that is that's all EQ, right? It's understanding.

Manya Chylinski 20:11

Wow. This I'm so glad you brought up AI because that's so much on people's minds these days about the workplace and the culture of the workplace. And I get so frustrated when I hear those stories of companies talking about we're letting off people so we can have AI do it. And I keep thinking, well, AI is a tool, and humans still need to be involved, and you need humans who you know understand it and also understand the business and are empathetic and and resilient and all of those things. And I feel like some organizations are kind of uh sabotaging themselves by thinking AI is the answer.

Rich Hua 20:52

There's there's a lot of pressure. I mean, I know we're I know a lot of people listening are senior leaders and you know they they have responsibilities. And the challenge is that you have these boards that are pushing the C level executives, usually the CEO. You need to do more with AI. I read in the news that company XYZ got a you know 40% increase in op, you know, efficiency. Why aren't you doing it? Like where are your where are your metrics? And so they feel this immense amount of pressure. So they're pushing these initiatives down, and then everyone at every level is feeling an incredible

Stress Shrinks Thinking And Judgment

Rich Hua 21:25

amount of pressure and stress. And the challenge is uh people don't know how to manage it well because they're lacking in in maybe the EQ proficiencies that will help them be more resilient and think more clearly and manage those pressures. And so they're making poor decisions, right? I mean, you're seeing all these things in the news, like, oh, we used all our tokens for the whole year in in three months. Well, because we're token maxing, everyone just use as many as you possibly can, you know, that'll be great. I mean, when when you look back, you're like, what who thought that was a great idea? You know? Um, and so you just you you just do these things because when you're under stress and you don't know how to manage it correctly, uh your IQ actually drops. So there's research that's found that when you're maxed out on stress and you're not managing it well, your your your thinking capabilities literally decrease by 50 to 60 percent. And so you become dumber, right? And so the the the key to being able to be an epic leader, which is what why I call my company EPIQ, right? It's EQ plus IQ, is you must have both if you're going to sort of think clearly and make good decisions. And so It's a tough one out there.

Manya Chylinski 22:35

It is. And it sometimes feels it's a little easy to talk about it and say, well, you should be doing this because of course it's important. And I appreciate that you bring up the kind of pressures people are under. And but you know, when you brought up the boards, it didn't even occur to me, yes, that is that's a whole different kind of pressure coming down. And they are are just trying to protect the bottom line.

Rich Hua 23:04

Yeah, that's right. And so the the belief that you can actually be successful in business while being an emotionally intelligent leader is what I try to help people understand. And I've seen so many incredible examples of that. I mean, you can read them in the news. I mean, obviously there are a lot of negative ones, but there are positive ones, right? And um and I've seen many of those at Amazon and leaders who really, in many ways, they're the ones who uh had the greatest success because they understood how human beings work, right? And um, they were inspirational leaders, which means that they had high expectations and they had high care and high trust. Right. When you put those two together, of course, that's where you're gonna get the best out of your people. They're gonna be the most loyal, they'll have a bias for action, they'll be willing to go the extra mile, you know, they're invested, take ownership. Without that, you just got a bunch of mercenaries who are gonna jump as soon as they can. Right now, right now, because of the sort of um job market, a lot of people are sort of handcuffed to their companies, right? They're like, I uh, you know, it's a bad job market, so I'm gonna stay, but like they're staying not because they want to, because they have to. And as soon as things shift, guess what? They're all gone, man. I mean, you know, we're just kind of waiting for uh that to happen. And so long-term leaders who understand the emotional side build obviously longer lasting companies that can really succeed.

Manya Chylinski 24:34

Right, right. Absolutely. Rich, this has just been such a fabulous conversation. Thank you for sharing so much. We're getting close to the end of our time. Wanna throw out the final question, which is what question did I not ask you that you want to answer? You want the listeners of this episode to know?

Rich Hua 24:54

I think the fundamental one is that in this world we live in, we do need to continuously grow and improve and learn. I mean, learn to use AI, become really proficient at all that. I mean, that, but that's table stakes. Like it's becoming more and more commoditized. It's it's like saying, I know how to use Microsoft Office, like, or I know how to use the internet. Like, what okay, that's that's great. I mean, yeah, so does everyone else, right? I mean, that's what's happening with AI. I know how to use AI, I use you know, blah, blah, blah. What's going to be what always really has been, but what is becoming even more differentiated

Human Skills That Stay Valuable

Rich Hua 25:35

is these human skills. It's things like adaptability and resilience and empathy and influence and inspiration. So, so take the time to work on those things because it really does matter. Right. And they will be the competitive advantage or the differentiator in this world where where everything that can be automated, you know, is is getting automated. And so um, I guess that the two pieces of advice I just give in terms of that is, you know, read good books and be around good people. Those are the two things that will influence you the most. And so, you know, Daniel Golman's Emotional Intelligence, Mark Brackett's uh, you know, dealing with feeling, and Travis Bradbury's Emotional Intelligence 2.0. I mean, those are kind of like the three foundational books I recommend. Read at least one of those books. Yeah. And then find people who can help you right grow in these things. And it can be, you know, accountability partners or just you know, EQ buddies. It can really make a big difference. So um, that's that's what I'd say.

Manya Chylinski 26:36

Well, thank you. And now before I let you go, please share with our listeners a little bit about yourself and your work and how they can reach you if they want to learn more.

Rich Hua 26:45

Yeah. Um, so I'm the CEO and founder of the Epic Leadership Group. And as I mentioned a little earlier, it's spelled EPIQ, and it stands for EQ plus IQ. And is based on this idea that you must have both harmized together expertly if you want to succeed and thrive as a leader in today's age. It's not one or the other. You must have both. Um, and so what I do is I help leaders in organizations develop the capabilities to be able to be epic leaders and epic professionals. So I do that through keynotes and workshops and consulting and advising. So my expertise is really building epic leadership cultures, right? Not just uh you developing skills on your own. So I've done this across Amazon and across thousands of other organizations that uh you know I've had a chance to work with in that role. So you can contact me um, you know, at uh on LinkedIn, uh, connect with me on LinkedIn uh or follow me. And uh you can also email me directly at rich at uh richardwa.co. So I'd be uh happy to hear from people who want to learn more about epic leadership and how that can help them uh thrive and succeed.

Manya Chylinski 27:53

Oh, wonderful. Thank you. I will put links to those in the show notes to make it easier for folks to get in touch with you. And Rich, thank you so much. I have so enjoyed our conversation.

Rich Hua 28:02

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Manya, for this opportunity. And I hope it really does make a positive difference for people.

Manya Chylinski 28:08

Thank you. And thank you to our listeners for checking out this episode of Notes on Resilience. We will see you next time.