Rich Devine’s Social Work Practice Podcast

Relationship Based Practice in Child Protection: An Insurmountable Problem? (EP.2)

November 02, 2022 Richard Devine
Rich Devine’s Social Work Practice Podcast
Relationship Based Practice in Child Protection: An Insurmountable Problem? (EP.2)
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode I explore whether, in child protection, to build therapeutic relationships. I argue that social work is inherently conflictual, which makes this difficult and explore how we can build meaningful and impactful relationships. 

The essay can be found here: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/2022/10/31/relationship-based-practice-in-child-protection-an-insurmountable-problem/

Any questions please contact me on richarddevine87@icloud.com

Connect with me on: https://twitter.com/RichardDevineSW

Follow my blog, where you can be sent fortnightly blogs on topics covered on this podcast: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/

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Welcome to rich divine social work podcast. I am rich and I am a social This podcast is about practice related issues. Self-development and transformation. It will give you knowledge, ideas, good practical tools for being an effective social worker. Supporting you with assessment skills, direct work, dealing with conflict and importantly, helping you make a positive difference in the lives of children and families. Today we are. Going to be looking at a. Article that I recently. Published through an organization called gaps. Um, the article's called relationship based practice in child protection. An insurmountable problem. Before. Uh, I go into that, however, I just wanted to acknowledge the positive reception and feedback from the original. And first Podcast episode that I did. It really makes a difference and is, um, Very welcome to receive such a positive feedback, especially when you put yourself out on something like this, and it was the first time I'd ever done it. And so I just wanted to give a special thanks to. Louie Spragg Kelly McKernan, Charlie food Carol Ann mum to Amber. That's the name on her Twitter? Tony Tonkin, Rebecca K. Helena who goes by the name of how five Pheon Evans. Um, Tim Fischer. Um, backed-up and Carmen. Common is a peer researcher and a parent advocate. She's doing some pretty work at the moment with cascade research. I would definitely check out the work of Tim Becker and Carmen who kind of, uh, collaborate in a lot through. Uh, ablation or activism, they have a, they have a website with lots of resources. And webinars that you can access some of which I've been apart And also Vicky from social work sorted. Um, again, who who's offered further encouragement. Some of the feedback has been incredibly positive in the, in the previous podcast. I talked a little bit about how. My childhood experiences have left me. With the lens of inadequacy or of worthlessness. And, um, I've done a lot of work over the recent years to try and overcome those underlying beliefs. And one of the things I've noticed is if I receive positive feedback, I find it a little bit. Intolerable. In the sense that it doesn't fit with the underlying belief that I have about myself. And so I have, uh, in bill innate. Tendency to want to. Reject or dismiss the positive feedback because it doesn't fit with the conception of myself. And so I've been trying to work recently at receiving. Feedback more positively. Because. I think it's an important skill to try and cultivate. I remember a colleague of mine who, if you compliment it, Uh, on the way that she did a piece of practice or a piece of her writing. She received it really positively. It was a pleasure to provide her with positive feedback. And so when, when, when you are offered that. I suppose I'm trying to, um, Receive it gratefully. And, um, and allow it to be. Be received. So I am going to move now on to. The article that I wrote. And I'm basically going to read the article and maybe add some commentary as I go along about my thinking at the time of writing And the first part of the article begins with a reflection or an account of me during a visit. It's it's not a specific It's an amalgamation of visits that I've done over the years. In order to ensure, um, And, uh, on nymity. That's a hard word to pronounce. So I'll I walked up to the short garden path of the home. I visited. I held an a four sized envelope containing and latter. That I anticipated would devastate the parents to whom I delivered the letter. As I approached my heart raced. I was tense and every fiber in my body was telling me my anxious state would dissipate. If I walked in the opposite direction. I attempted to Darren regulate my heightened emotional state, but all I managed was to conceal my underlying state from visibility. I knocked on the front door. It jerked open and the mother Katie quickly glance before Sheraton. Not f-ing today. I've already told you, I don't want you here. Before I uttered a word, the door slammed shut as quickly as it was opened. I braced myself and knocked again. Katie opened the door. The skin was clammy, her eyes puffed up and her hair and brushed and greasy. She swayed, leaned on the doorframe to study And I concluded that she was probably intoxicated. Isabelle. A three year old girl with curly blonde hair and piercing blue eyes leaned around the doorframe inside the home. He looked at me, coily smiled and wondered back into the living room. Katie glance that the latter venomously asked, what is this? With trepidation. I told Katie that we decided to enter into pre proceedings. The final stage before court proceedings issued and removal with Saul. Due to our ongoing concerns that is about, and the lack of progress with the child protection I held up the envelope, which is snatched out of my hand, ripped into pieces. Katie shouted, frats and bourbon abusively. I stood there for what felt like an inordinately long I was gripped by fear and demobilized, but I was also indecisive about how to respond. Should I attempt to weather the storm and negotiate with her. Or shall I accept that now isn't the right time and leave. I eventually decided on the latter. As I turned around, I saw Isabelle standing on the safer with her forehead pressed against the window. She peered out onto the garden path. Our eyes crossed each other. She looked sad and scared. Yet. She also appeared in different as if this was normal. The barrier. The borrower. Of insults and threats continued until I stepped back into my car. And in the article. I go on to say, how realistic is it that I can form a therapeutic relationship in such a fraught context? How can I make sense of the golf experience between this encounter and the idealized concepts haven't promoted in the social work literature. Ideas, such as co-production collaboration, empowerment, and anti discriminatory in practice. Ideas such as unconditional positive regard, genuineness and empathy. Often I need to act self protectively to fulfill my start to two duties. In this instance, the inhibition and concealment of my emotional state. What pretends the mental gymnastics must. I partake in to believe that I could practice, for example, in a client centered ways, advocated for by Cole Unconditional positive regard is surely belied by the contents of the letter. The stipulate dictated did not change. She could lose a child. Congress would almost antagonized Katie. And made me vulnerable to retaliation. Empathy for the distressed experience by Katie. Would cause debilitating anguish or potentially hinder. My capacity to safeguard is about effectively. Despite what I consider to be the impossibility of fully importing relationship based client centered psychotherapeutic approaches into child protection, social work. I do not believe we should constrain our ambition. And commitment to upholding the principles derived from those fields. In this essay. I will explore how we can integrate into what I will refer to. As integrated principle. Principle-based child protection. A new term that I use to encapsulate the ideas in this piece. Just a side Integrated principle-based child protection is probably not the most. Endearing of terms. And if anybody has any other. Terms that are more appealing than please do. Let me know. Integrated principle-based child protection draws upon the ideas such as those developed by Cole Rogers. And Winnicott. However it also involves confronting the reality that statutory social work is fundamentally conflictual. Therefore I integrate concepts such as negotiated casework. Skillful use of authority. Intimate child protection, practice and good authority and purposeful dialogue. And those concepts derived from the work of James Barba, Andrew to now, and Suzy assets. Uh, highly focused on Donald Forester and they've been quite important influences. Uh, in my thinking and in my practice. The key principle of integrated principle-based child protection is that compassion. Is a manifestation of understanding. Therefore, I will apply this to making sense of parental difficulties. And dealing with resistance or deny. So that's the kind of introduction to this essay. And what I'm trying to get at is that there seems to be a disconnect in social work between some of these somewhat idealized notions of. Therapeutic relationship building. And it, and I think we put an inordinate pressure on ourselves. That is ultimately. Uh, Difficult, if not impossible to realize in terms of thinking that we can use our relationships in order to bring about change in relation to some of the issues that parents are experiencing. That caused them and, um, that children difficulty. And so I think that we need to recognize that this fundamentally. If there's fundamental difficulties and conflict that occurs within the child protection context. Um, and that needs to be the kind of starting point in which we think about how do we effectively do our work? In a way that is compassionate and thoughtful and understands parents difficulties. The other thing. I would say is that this is. An essay about the ways in which I learned to navigate. Relationships within the child protection space and to build collaborative relationships with the parents that I was working with. And I'm using These. Uh, theory and research to support. Um, And articulate the way in which I went out and did the work that So I'm trying to reflect my experiences and the way that I practiced and using the theory and the research to help explain the approach that I adopted. So it's a kind of bottom up practice. Led. Explanation of how to work with parents. But I use quite a lot of research and important thing is to help articulate that. So the next section is called statutory social work in conflict. Uh, primary source of conflict arises from the fact that most parents who are social workers are involved with do not wish to have a social worker. Ferguson. How many focus and then his colleagues consider this. In quotes, one of the most difficult, important, and yet under analyzed dilemmas in social The conflict of interest arises because the state intends to intrude upon private family map matters. Yeah, the parents do not wish for the intrusion to occur. The state justifies intrusion under the, or species of safeguard than the child. However, there is often a dispute about the legitimacy of concerns. How would by the local authority about the child? Now I'm reading that it does feel like. I've used slightly unnecessarily. Complicated language. To basically say that a lot of parents don't want us involved in their lives. Because at the legal duties bestowed upon local authorities and it's ministered by social workers, parents find the involvement of social workers, threatening. Anxiety mistrust and fear cause tension and friction and breed hostile grant for building relationships. As observed by lady Hale. And this is her quote. The aspiration of developing a partnership between children's services and families with children in need proved very difficult to retrieve. The trouble is that if efforts to work with the herpes run into difficulties, The local authority can always resort to care procedures. And the family In addition to being fed by Manny families, social workers are considerably bound by This deprived, the relationship of two key ingredients. Psychological safety in time. How much could I realistically achieve therapeutically with Katie when she was vehemently, opposed to the reasons for our involvement and was frightened about what I represented. Or when I could only visit at most weekly. If I were to measure my competence as a social worker, based on the degree to which I built a therapeutic relationship, Katie. I would quickly feel demoralized and disillusioned. And this. Gets at the heart of one of my concerns about relationship based practice. And the way in which social work is sometimes. Talked about. Is that. Places an Um, an unrealistic set of expectations on social workers. Who they can quickly feel. Um, demoralized or inadequate when they're not able to cultivate the relationships that some of the literature and the taxes, um, promote or encourage or. Uh, claim that is, is able to be achieved. So the next septum. Is called parents difficulties, denial and resistance. So the first part is just recognizing fundamentally that the relationship is, has a degree of conflict from the outset more often than not. Because we have some concerns about the children. And so we. Argue that we need to be involved to understand those concerns and do an assessment or to intervene to improve. The conditions for the children. And the parents are often in denial or don't agree with the concerns. And even if they do agree, they don't want us involved because they're fearful about the implications of what our involvement might mean. So the next section, parents difficulties, denial and resistance. In addition to recognizing the conflict is built into the relationship. It is also crucial to understand how a parent has come to experience the difficulties that warrant statutory involvement. As well as explore the rationale behind resistance and denial. Otherwise social workers run the risk of blaming parents for their difficulties. Paternalistically telling parents what needs to change under the misguided belief that once this is pointed out, they will change. And taking it personally, when a parent is evasive or dishonest. And if you want to. Look at the way in which. Social workers have been observed to speak to parents. Then I would highly recommend. Looking at the work of Donald Forester. And if we, if you want to look at how parents can, how social workers can sometimes take it personally, when a parent is evasive of this office, then I would recommend. Looking at the work of Harry focus on. So how do we conceptualize parents difficulties? How can social workers make sense of the actions of those who cause harm to children in a way. That does not negate the harmful behavior. Yeah. Facilitates compassion. First, I think we have to admit that the division between us and them is an illusion or a false construct. Suppose we had been brought up at the same time in the same place and the same family. In that case. There is an inevitable probability that we would function in the exact same way. Spiritual teacher Eckhart totally captures. What has otherwise been described from a neuroscientific perspective? But Eagleman gap all And suppose ski. And this is one of my all time favorite quotes by echo. And it's in the essay. If her past where your past, her pain, your Her elaborate of consciousness, your level of consciousness. Then you would think and act exactly as she does. With this realization comes forgiveness, compassion. Peace. Extending compassion to those that harm children intentionally or unintentionally can be talented. Because it feels like we are making the behavior acceptable or de-value in another person's perspective. In other words. It can feel like we are overlooking the harm done to So therefore this requires professional maturity. One of the ingredients. Of integrated principle-based child protection. This approach requires another ingredient to integrate it. Principle-based child protection. Humility. I have to accept that under the right conditions, I have the capacity for malice and harmful behavior. I recognize that if I have Katie's experience and found myself in her position, I would be Harley and abuse at the social worker standing in I would also struggle with an alcohol addiction to deal with the unbearable, psychological distress. Associated with traumatic childhood mammy. And a lack of family and social support. The next section is called denial and resistance. There are two types of denial, which I will refer to situational and psychological. Many parents are fearful of social work intervention. They often overestimate the powers available to social workers, causing them to believe that their children can be easily removed. In other cases. Where children are subject to a child protection plan or pre procedures. The potential for care proceedings will often feel like a real possibility. In both instances. The families can easily conclude that Sharon concerned or requesting how it will be used unfavorably against them. This can result in disputes whereby the parents vehemently deny or minimize the issue and social workers confined themselves, spending a lot of time trying to prove and demonstrate how a parent is incorrect. This is situational denial. I'm always amazed that. Not that parents don't try to deny or minimize or conceal because it's. Quite clear. That they've got compelling reasons in order to. Consider or minimize, especially in the context of believing that we can easily and readily remove their children. Which is quite a common view that parents have of our ability. Our abilities and our powers. I'm more surprised that. Parents are able to be open. And share some of that concerns and to have the courage to do that, even when there's a risk of. Um, Consequences in terms of our involvement. Moving on. With the. Essay psychological denial functions. So this is the next type of denial. Function self protectively to conceal the self. Aspects of function and the often called shade. For example, a parent like Katie who misuses alcohol might experience many difficulties looking after their child. They might also find it to be the most effective and only available solution to cope with the loneliness. And or emotional distress related to past experiences. The pain of recognizing the harmful effects alcohol use might have on her function and parenting and children can sometimes be too much to tolerate. To deal with this. Some parents tried to minimize or deny its effect on themselves or others. There were also many aspects of our functioning that is unconscious, unconscious. Such as being emotionally disconnected, anxious, or relationally coercive. We develop ways of coping in our childhood and because these strategies developed early on. They become habituated and psychologically bedded. Consequently, we can become completely unaware These two, two types of denial. Situational and psychological Can be compounded by a parent's experience of past abuse and trauma that compromised their capacity to trust. Regulate their emotions and distress and communicate effectively. Therefore, we have to recognize that there are many intense, psychological and social international pressures. That make denial a compelling response. And they're unquote him from. At the called work in we've denied. Child abuse by a hundred to now and Susie assets on the best books. I've read in terms of practical application. I've A blog at the beginning of the year called Top books or something to that fact. And it was on that list. A parent who attempts to deceive, minimize, or denies concern, therefore often has a logical basis. Even if it undermines the development of a trusting relationship. Acknowledging the underlying reasons is critical because if social workers feel personally hurt or let down by this, then they might unconsciously channel those negative feelings unhealthily into the relationship. So I think what I'm trying to encapsulate there is this often. Lots of good reasons. Why. A parent might want to deny or minimize or resist our involvement. And we don't always need to take it personally. In terms of them trying to deceive us as individuals, but rather their attempt into. Resist. What, what they think that we represent. And some parents, even when we try and convey to them that we're trying to work collaboratively and in partnership. And the last thing we want Is to remove the, children's still find it hard to develop trust. And I'm not saying that this is always the case. There's lots of social workers. I've worked with who do incredible work. Um, under unbelievably difficult conditions. But I suppose I'm trying to. Make the case that my experience, there's lots of good reasons that parents might. Want to dismiss or minimize the concerns and our job, I think to some degree is to at least acknowledge the reasons why they might want to. Minimize or deny. What's happening for them. So the final part of this. Article. Is called integrated principle-based child protection. Relationships and statutory child protection are often fraught with conflict and. Emotionally demanded, provoking a range of negative emotions. The challenge is to show compassion when for reasons pertaining to their own situation. Apparent acts in a way that causes a social worker to feel frightened, anxious, or incompetent. It is easy and arguably quite obvious to state the social workers must be compassionate towards parent. When a parent approaches social workers for help, this can be more straightforwardly achieved. However, this is more challenging when a parent is involved on an involuntary basis. And he's resistant or abusive in highly personal ways. I believe it is possible, but it requires that we dispense with the idea that social workers can function as course I've therapists. And I quote here. The work of James Barba. Who I happened to. Read. As a result of. Reading Harry Ferguson's book. Called child protection practice. And in that book, he referred to the often forgotten work of Dames, Bob barber. And he has a brilliant book called beyond casework. So he writes in place of helping. In place of a helping. Or fair reputed relationship. Then the foundation of social casework within voluntary clients is working is a working relationship where in client and work are prepared to work. Towards a speedy resolution of the problem and a reinstatement of the client's Liberty. So that's where we can form collaboration. Where we think about. Often, if you ask parents. What do you want to happen? They'll say I don't want you involved in my life. And that means then we have a shared goal because we don't want to be involved unnecessarily in the lives of So we can say great. We don't want to be involved in your life either. So how can we work together to show that there isn't these concerns and that. You're doing everything you can to bring up your children safe and happy. So that we can then reinstate the client's Liberty in terms of our buzz words, which is basically. Withdrawal statutory involvement. I suggest we confront the reality that conflict is an inevitable feature of child protection, social work. And from that position, consider how under these conditions we can support parents to improve their lives for themselves and their children. To this effect, I will summarize several principles. Of integrated principle-based child protection. Number one. The commitment to. Enter the internal world of others' feelings and personal meaning is so completely. That we lose all desire to evaluate in the chapter. That's a quote by Carl Rogers. We are genuinely curious about the reasons for parents difficulties. For example, I might ask Katie, what relief do you find in alcohol? How does alcohol help you cope? That's reminded me actually of a quote by Gabrielle Matay and he suggests. To ask, not why the addiction, but why the pain. And he makes a compelling argument about. Substance misuse being a solution to resolve underlying distress. So we're generally genuinely curious about the reasons for that difficulty and the reasons for that dissatisfaction with social work involvement. We seek first to understand then to be understood. Social workers do not need to agree with a parent to validate their perspective. Often, but not always this interpersonal act lessons, a parents fair softens the parents tonight. And creates an openness to discuss in their problems. It is important to note that resistance is not just a product of the person. But he's also influenced largely by the relationship between the past and the worker. And again, I would refer you to. The work of Donald Forester and his colleagues. His book, motivational interviewing that he wrote with David Wilkins and Charlie Whitaker. Is a brilliant, brilliant. Accessible book. Number two. Hold and onto multiple perspectives. Returning to Katie and her daughter, Isabel, this would involve a compassion towards the mother's behavior attempt. And to appreciate that I only get, might be motivated by a profound fear of needing to change. Or losing her child. A parent can be frightened and frightening to borrow a term from. Mary main. Be a recognition of the harm experienced by Isabelle being cared for by a mother dependent on alcohol and behaving aggressively towards the social worker. And see, acknowledging the feelings experienced due to Katie's aggressive behavior. And using appropriate outlet to share emotions such as supervision. So as not to allow them to influence the relationship negatively. Empathy for what a parent and their difficulties. Does not need to be traded off with a focus on the child. So we can have empathy for the parent and their difficulties. Even though those same difficulties are what's causing harm for the child. And then we can also be sensitive to the impact. That the child on the child of the parents difficulties. In my experience, what separates the perpetrator of child abuse from a victim of child abuse is the passage of time. Put simply and to quote Patricia Crittendon. Today's parents are yesterday's children. Principle number three. These are like sub principles and principles that support compassionate and ethical practice. A commitment to understand in the parents' perspective. Uh, focus on the child and the desire to act ethically, irrespective of the conditions. In addition to professional maturity and compassion. I consider the following coverage. It takes tremendous courage, tenacity. And for, to, to, to undertake the task of statutory social work. For example, courage to knock on a family's door for the first time. Speak to a child about abuse or harm. Explain to a parent why we are concerned and to return to a visit when we. When a parent has been abusive or difficult. Or unkind towards us. Wisdom. Involved now in the degree to which we can influence outcomes for children and families. It sounds obvious. But we can't make a parent change and knowing where and how we can influence is an important skill to develop. She military for what is achievable? There is. In a hundred to now as words. No perfect practice in ideal solutions. Furthermore. Uh, social worker can never eradicate risk. And to believe so is to place. And then in Samantha put expectation burden. On ourselves. Instead a social worker's job is to lessen risks sufficiently enough to enable the child not to be exposed to excessively high levels of That is an important distinction to make. I'll just repeat that again, because I do think that is probably one of the most important lessons. Of my career. And. Our job is to lessen the risk sufficient enough to enable the child not to be exposed to excessively high levels of harm. So it's not possible. I don't believe often. To completely eradicate the level of What we can do is offer support for the parent. And hopefully support the wider system. To mitigate or reduce the extent of the risk such that the child can remain within the parent's care. Number four. Social workers are always working in a legal context. Parents need clear explanations about the process under which social workers are working As well as expectations regarding change of what will happen if change does not occur. Davis. Writing back in 1994, he wrote a book called the essential social worker. I book that was recommended to me. By Donald Forester. He asks, whether it's feasible for a social worker to implement statutory processes. And I'll quote him now. I gain the family's confidence. I convey the personal warmth and genuine genuineness implicit in her professional's role. He answers on and bake you asleep. It has to be done. And the evidence suggests that it is by no means impossible to achieve. Provided the social worker was crystal clear about the nature of her role. And the duality of her roles. I completely wholeheartedly agree. And one of the more interesting findings in the research is that a failure to be clear about the concerns is often received unfavorably by power. The final principle that I detail is that safeguarding children depends on effective support to. For parents to resolve their difficulties. In my opinion, practical case work is the most effective way of achieving Social workers are limited in their ability to intervene with a parent therapeutically. But we can assist them in accessing services. We provide them with practical support. In addition to helping parents change, we can also look to change the context. As a way of improving the life of the child, especially if a parent is not ready to change. Suppose Katie wasn't ready to address around coal use. In that case. I could look at ways to support the family or professional To lessen the risks associated with her substance misuse. I actually have a little bit of a, an example of there from my own experiences. When I was about. 10 or 11. We had a social worker come to our house. At the time. I have no idea. Y the social worker was distant. But now looking back retrospectively. I recognize that it was probably linked to my dad's drug and alcohol use. And my mum at the time had depression and chronic fatigue syndrome. The social worker came round and visited. Our family. And she spoke to myself and my brother in our living room. And then I never saw the social worker again. But after that, Soon after that I began attending. Young carers. And young carers. Was is a group for children living at home with parents who have difficulties, where they have to take on some caregiving role, or maybe there's a sibling. And I went to young carers from the age of 10, 11, 12. Up until I was 16. I'm free young carers. I access the weekly group. I had one-to-one counseling and I got to do loads of activities during school holidays and at half term. And I went on some brilliant camps. And then when I was 16 and I was too old to continue accessing young carers. I became a volunteer. And that then supported me when I went to college to begin my journey into social Now that social worker. Had no idea the impact that she had on my life. And I think about that quite a lot. When I think about filling out. Another referral form. But actually sometimes the best thing that we can do for children is to. Provide them access to another service that could be involved with them in a long For a long time. And. The point I want to make is that. That social work can make no changes to my lived experiences at home. My dad still use drugs and alcohol. My mum still had the issues that she had. But she gave me access to a wealth of support and. Uh, activities. The significantly ameliorated the impact of those experiences. So that's kind of what I'm. Point into here. So to wrap this up. While this does not include all the principles. For example, I think the intensity of the support should be matched to the intensity of And we should focus on the critical cause of concern and change. I have also not considered the role of the organization in providing emotional containment and support for social workers. Suffice to say, this is paramount. Nevertheless, I hope it provides a flavor of the principle and relational approach. Be an advocate. And a short conclusion. In this essay, I have sought to outline how we practice statutory social work with transparency. Compassion professional maturity. Citi courage and wisdom. I think case management instead of being devalued should be elevated. As an ethically sound and effective way of helping children It involves integrating different approaches, adopting a principled approach and ensuring that parents are provided with relationships and support that maximize the chance of change so that children can reside with. Enough safety in that parent's care, healthy and happy. So there we have it. That's the end of that. Assay. I'd be interested to hear. Your thoughts and comments about the essay and the experience of listening to it on a podcast. And weapon that's. Something that I can continue doing. Moving forward. I would also really welcome. Questions. To be sent in. Uh, because one of the things I'm thinking about is having like a Q and a session at the end where if you're a frontline social worker and you have a certain query or question or an issue that you might Struggling with, or you're unsure about. That you can then. Send them to me and I can have a go at answering them. I thought that might be quite a cool thing to do. So many fans for listening to this episode. If you haven't already, then please consider subscribing or sharing with your colleagues. And please, please leave a comment. Positive or negative. All feedback is very welcome. And finally, like I mentioned a minute ago, if you have any questions, Eva as a frontline practitioner that you would like me to answer on the podcast or just more generally, then please do. Uh, get in touch. I would love to hear from you.