Episode 57 - Divorce, part 2 (The Process)

Divorce isn’t just a breakup with paperwork. Sometimes it’s 90 days and a signature. Sometimes it’s years of stop-and-start court dates, mediation rooms, and legal fees that feel like they never stop climbing. We sit down for part two of our divorce series and get blunt about what the divorce process actually looks like when kids, custody, and money are on the line. 

We compare two very different outcomes: a collaborative divorce that stays focused on co-parenting, and a contested divorce that drags into trial-level conflict. We talk about why hiring a divorce attorney early matters, how billable hours sneak up on you, and why “being reasonable” can collapse the minute someone starts fighting over a parenting plan. We also dig into the day-to-day reality of custody schedules, the weird double standards around dating while you’re still legally married, and how easy it is for small clauses to create big resentment later. 

From the shock of child support, alimony, and tuition obligations, to the emotional work of rebuilding a home from scratch, this conversation stays grounded in real life. We share what helped us stay connected to our kids, what we wish the system did differently, and how honest boundaries can keep you sane when you start dating after divorce. If you’re navigating co-parenting, a contested divorce, or just trying to figure out what “starting over” really requires, you’ll leave with clearer expectations and a few hard-earned warnings. 

If this resonates, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review so more people can find the series. What part of the divorce process do you wish people talked about more?

Transcript

Cold Open And Quick Banter

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Two drinks and again let's not tape before a live studio audience. Part two. Part two.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

I have a feeling you're gonna be a little bit better than this one.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Hey

Vacations, Rentals, And Family Travel

SPEAKER_01 0:34

friends, it's me, Jeff.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

It's me, it's me, David T.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

And here we are with part two of our divorce series. But before we get into that, um what what uh do you got any vacations planned this summer?

SPEAKER_03 0:45

Lake Tahoe. Nice. Yep, yeah. We've uh normally we always do a beach trip, but we've kind of been to all of them now, you know, in Florida and done the whole Gulf Shores and all that fun shit. And and finally my kids are just like, let's let's go out west and go to Lake Tahoe. Well, okay then.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Cool. Yeah. I've never been, so I have never have been.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

No. I've not the only time I've um the only time I've been there, uh my ex-wife and I we stayed in Reno, and then we it was Oh, that's a harbinger of doom. Yes, exactly. And then uh went up to Lake Tahoe and rode snowmobiles, yeah, which was that was fun as shit. And but driving down in there and everything is like, man, this would be a great little great little place to stay. So um, yeah, end of July. Excellent. Yeah, excellent. I was shocked. I mean, I'm guessing it's the off season, like, but I was just shocked. I've got no I've got no intel for you. I can't. I swear to God, it doesn't matter where I go. Like, I show up there and they were like, Well, it's the off season. I'm like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Which isn't the worst, which is not the the worst thing in the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

No, like I one time I went to Naples, yeah, like in the middle of the summer, and they were like, Well, it's the off-season now, and I'm going, It's uh cool, it's a beach town. Yeah, like how are the what is how is this an off-season anyway? But um, just shocked at like the amount of uh verbos that are available and everything, you know. Oh yeah, like it was yeah, but I that's the way I'd like to do it. I can't stand doing I like hotels, um, but when I you know it's a family trip and everything, I do the whole thing. Depends on what you get.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yeah. We when we went out to Kansas City, I can't stand it be like two hotel rooms and oh yeah, because yeah, we went out to Kansas City, we stayed at this uh Airbnb, and what I am thinking the Hyde Park area of Kansas City, and I think I kind of get the vibe it's kind of the gay district, which meant our place was very neat. And uh apologies apologies to all my gay friends out there. Um two drinks in again is a highly is a supporter of the LGBTQ plus community, so we're friends. Um anyway, no, it's it was um it was very pleasant. I have dealt with I where I've gotten soured on the whole Airbnb Verbo experience is like kind of overseas. Um yeah, yeah, that's I have been in some places that are kind of shitholes, yeah. And then I'm just like, God, you know, you're better I'm better off finding a resort or a hotel or someplace like that.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

So I get that. Yeah. It's just if it's just me and CJ, I'll probably we do the hotel thing. Yeah, you know, because yeah, that that's just more accessible. Yeah. But when you know, 15-year-old and a 19-year-old, they want their privacy, yeah. Just let them have it, you know, and I'll just sit on the deck of some some other dude's house. Right. Have fun. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

My my previous relationship and I, we used to do a lot of weekends in Gatlinburg just renting a cabin. So I miss that a lot. That's always a good thing. Virginia looks down her nose at Gatlinburg. Um, I I I I found I find it charming in its own way. But because different. Because she she looks I I just I haven't been to Gatlinburg in like a million years. Yeah, I neither. You know, I I miss eating a steak at the peddler.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

And you know, it's been a long time.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

You know, it's a good it's a good place over there. Now, um well, my my next big vacation coming up is of course Jeffrey graduates from college on July 1st. God. And uh can you fucking believe that? Nope. So it's gonna be all of us descending in Edinburgh uh that last week of June, first week of July. Awesome. And so I get there and I I actually landed inverness and I'll be scuttling on over to the Isle of Sky for two nights. And uh my goal is to go down to the school where I'm taking the distance learning class. Yeah. I've told my professor, I said, look for look for the amatigan skulking around campus. That's so cool. And uh I and she goes, Well, I said, I kind of they're doing a little like a little summer school session for three days. And I kind of thought, well, I'm not enrolled in that, but I figure you guys will probably have like a social happy hour after the class is wrapped for the day. And I just I kind of want to be there for that. Yeah, that'd be awesome. So uh we'll see how that all goes, and then I had then I'll bust on over to Edinburgh, and and then I'll have two days where the girls are hanging with me. We're gonna go hike up to Arthur's seat, and we're gonna um we're gonna, you know, and Juliana, it's Juliana's first trip to Europe ever. So she's gonna get to Edinburgh and she's just gonna mind blown.

SPEAKER_04 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Then that Friday of that week, uh the girls and their mother and their grandmother will go to the continent, and I think they're going to like the Netherlands and Denmark and Belgium. And uh and meanwhile, I'll have two days to hang with my son and just kind of whatever he needs.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

And then we'll um is he gonna stay out there or is it gonna be a really he is going to he told me his plan today is to stay out there until his graduate visa would expire, unless he gets a week a work visa at some point. He's having a hard time finding a job though.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Really?

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Yeah, he's put in to two positions at the Scottish National Gallery, which would be perfect for what he's interested in. And then he hit me with, Well, I've also applied for a training position as an accountant, and I'm like, okay, that's some serious outside the box thinking because that's genius, you know. And then he also a training program it at a law firm on like to be a paralegal, and he said, Yeah. And I said, Okay, cool. I said, I said, at least you're open to or open to options, but I just think the job market globally is just tough these days, right? So, um, so once he lands a job, I'll feel better about things. Sure. Um, and so yeah, so we're all gonna descend there at the end of the month, and then and and that'll be what we're immediately doing. Then we got plans for later this year. We can talk about some other times. Go into my whole vacation schedule and everything. People will listen to this and say it's a fucker for work.

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Well, they know you do.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Many accused me of not. So uh anyway, divorce part

Divorce Process Starts, Hire Counsel

SPEAKER_01 7:12

two. So where we left it is uh I I said on February 23rd, 2008 is when I moved out and into my apartment, and that's when we told the kids that we were going to um divorce, and I had gotten attorney and attorney by then. So we're gonna talk in this episode about the process. Now, David's story will probably be a lot shorter than mine.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

Mine's pretty quick and dry, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:37

And and I envy all of you who have that. Yeah. Um, I first of all, going into this, I would advise anyone before you step into this world of divorce, make sure you have an attorney. Um don't don't just blindly go into this and don't think that you'll be, oh, we'll just work this out and this will be peaceful because it can go south really quickly. You know, but when you're when you're talking kids and when you're talking stuff, yeah. And um so your story is shorter.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

My my story is very short. I mean, first and foremost, we've always been great parents. And and we did not let that diminish. And it was when we legitimately said 50-50, there was no like the only thing I I guess I essentially like quote unquote gave up is you know, she stayed in the house, so I had to go find a place to live, which luckily I did before the market went bat shit crazy. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

I would have been in a damn what a great time to get divorced, right? Right, yeah. I mean, I would what what year did you get divorced? 18. 2018? Yeah. Oh, okay. So okay. Yeah, and then like, so then, you know, like what I keep forgetting you're like a hundred years younger than me. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

So when but I mean COVID hit, like, and the market went like bananas, like, I wouldn't have been able to afford anything. I'd have been in a damn refrigerator box under a bridge. But but anyway, you know, that was what also was all of a sudden you had to get used to, right? Is you know half half of your normal income's gone, you know, because we were you know two-income family and we were living that way, and then all of a sudden you ain't a two-income family anymore. But um, but it was it was straight up 50-50. We agreed on the days, that was 50-50, you know, every other weekend thing, and that was it. I didn't even go to court. One lawyer, we went in there, we signed. Who was your attorney? I don't even know the guy's name. She she picked him out and I I showed up to So it was kind of a collaborative divorce. Oh, yeah. Good for you. It was crazy. Like, I mean, you know, we had enough respect for each other, and it was just like, look, you know, we're not gonna the the loss is enough. We don't have to just keep throwing you know, we're not there's no need for us to be Apollo and Ross.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

My Allison didn't see it that way.

SPEAKER_03 10:12

Yeah, my

Two Divorce Paths: Easy And Brutal

SPEAKER_03 10:13

and you know, maybe if we had as much Probably You know what I mean? Like y'all y'all definitely had a lot more than five years.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

I didn't have as much as I have now, but I mean still at that time, uh, you know, it's um it did not have to be as bitter and as brutal as it was. I got you. I feel that given the nature of the attorney that she hired, Caesar Stair. That's his job. It's his job. And and that's what I think everyone needs to realize, also, is that these attorneys are not your friends, they're here to make a buck. Oh, yeah. And the longer you can drag this out and the bigger of a mess it can be, it's just more dollars for them. The only winners in a in a hotly contested divorce are the attorneys. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:04

No, I I didn't have to do any of that shit. Like none of that.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

I had really hoped, because you know, you've got to go through the parenting class and everything when you have kids. And so, I mean, I did that immediately. Yeah. And I felt just there was initial layers of parental alienation syndrome going on from Allison. Her attitude was she felt that I never wanted to be a parent and everything. And finally I said to her shortly after I'd moved out, I said, No, I think you missed the point. It's not that I didn't want to be a parent, I just didn't want to be married to you. That's the thing. And I know, and you know, and and I know that's hard to that's hard for someone to stomach, especially a narcissist. Exactly, right, you know, and so her goal was to lay waste to everything. She partly because she felt that my parents were wealthy, that I was always gonna have my back protected, and I did. Yeah. Um if I didn't have them, I don't know how this would have turned out. Right. Um, because they loaned me money for my legal fees and everything. Yeah. And um, but my from start to finish, my divorce process was two and a half years. Jeez. Um, and I'll just I have no problem sharing combined $450,000 in legal fees. $300,000 of that was hers, $150,000 of that was mine. And that is where I wish the judge would have rebuked her attorney a little bit because that is just or or rebuked her because they just let her go crazy with a credit card, but God forbid. Let me back up. Oh, let's just let me just go chronologically here. Okay. So I get served, and they were kind enough to call me and say, hey, look, we'll meet you someplace privately. We don't want to embarrass you or anything like that. Like, we don't want to come to your office or anything like that. And I said, That thank you. Appreciate it. So I so I met them and and whatnot. And then the minute I got it, I went right to went to my attorney's office, and we sat down, we talked about it a little more. And what one of the things I had to learn quick out of the gate is you don't call your attorney every time a thought comes in your head because you get billed for that. Oh, my retainer fee kind of evaporated very quickly. Whoops. So um, I had to learn from that a little bit. And um, you know, she she wanted me, I think she wanted the plan to be one evening in a two-week period, and every other weekend is what she was looking for. So like a Wednesday evening is when I would have them, and then every other weekend is when I would have them. Really?

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

So Golly.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

So a lot of that big time.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Okay, and you know, they they also went grounds. So they at first it was like, you know, they wanted inappropriate marital conduct. I don't know if they wanted full-on adultery, but they wanted that they they were shooting for inappropriate marital conduct. They were taking you to the woodshed. Yeah, and and you know what? If I had known that that was going to be the big one of the big things we were fighting over was just what the grounds were, I would have given them adultery. I would have given I would have let them have that and just say, fine, you can have it. What fucking difference does it make? You know. Um our judge was Chancellor John Weaver. I have mixed feelings about him because he seems like a sharp guy and everything, but then like some of I I mean I think his problem was he was dealing with an orthodontist who seemed to be very unrepentant about some of the things that he had done. Yeah. And he he felt the need to kind of take me to the woodshed. Rub your nose in it. Yeah, rub my nose in it, take me to the woodshed and whatnot. Um so like how much time did from start to finish did yours take? The the however long it was you were supposed to be.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

90 days. You're supposed to be split.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Right, 90 days, I guess. Okay. Oh, good for you. So you could like start dating immediately after it was all over.

SPEAKER_03 15:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Um that's one of the things I had a problem with is that the this expectation that's okay, this could be prolonged and you expect me to be a monk during this time. Yeah, weird. Fuck you. That's not happening. You know, fish gotta swim, birds gotta eat. You know? What's the point of that? I I because technically, if the um in this case Allison was the plaintiff, that if um she wants like if she wasn't going for adultery, now she can. Because you're technically still married.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Yeah, that's a lot of it. And it can change, and and there are articles out there on the web that will say that all day, yeah, you shouldn't openly date, or you shouldn't date at all, actually. And I'm like, that's bullshit. Yeah, I it's just where I stand on it. So um the woman I was seeing at the time, we broke up during this because I don't think she was able to it was too much. I didn't I broke up with her because her demands on me, she was not seeing what I was going through at the time, and I needed to go this alone for a bit. You had too much baggage, right? So by the end of 2008, I was about to capitulate on like a temporary parenting plan, and then I found out that my ex-wife was seeing somebody. Uh

Custody, Grounds, And Double Standards

SPEAKER_01 16:25

oh who ended up being now her current husband. But his so apparent the so this is what was funny is that um his now ex-wife had left a message on our voicemail at my office, and she said she needed to talk to me about a personal matter. And one of my staff members on a Friday retrieved this and forwarded it to me, and I called her, and it was his ex-wife, and and she's like, Well, she goes, Is your wife this person, Alison Eberting? And I said, Yes. And she said, Well, she's she's having an affair with my husband. And I'm like, Well, you are now my new best friend. Yeah, hello, you were now my new best friend, and um so she you know, she gave me all the details. I called my attorney immediately and I said, Stop everything. Yeah, and so again, what I didn't like in the system is that it was okay that she was seeing him, but it was awful that I was just out on right back then. It was Yahoo Personals and um oh fuck, what's the other one? Match.com. Oh yeah, you know, good times. I'm telling you. So we'll get to that part in a minute. But even before that, like just then so so it was what we ended up with as a temporary parenting plan was I would have them every Wednesday evening and every other weekend.

SPEAKER_04 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

So five days out of a two-week period. And then in the summers, it would kind of we would go to every other week, or we would balance it out based on vacations and whatnot. And so there was one time my um dad uh was trying to arrange, you know, for the girls to come up and stay and whatnot. And he's on the phone with her. And he's like, you know, Alison, I'm really trying to work with Hugh here. And he said, he said, Listen, I understand what you're going through. And she said, No. She said, You have no idea what it is I'm going through right now.

SPEAKER_04 18:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

She said, and here's the thing. She said he will be okay at the end of the day. She because he will charm the world into loving him all over again. And she goes, and I will be left with nothing. Which I thought was a little melodramatic. You know.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

Just a smidge.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Just a smidge. You know, we're not Bill and Hillary Clinton here, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

So a lawyer left with nothing.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

A lawyer left with nothing, except her new lawyer boyfriend, you know. So anyway, so fast forward to this revelation. And so we finally settle into this every Wednesday and every other weekend thing, which then ended up being the parenting plan. So for a while it was I it was a seven and five. Seven five. Nine five. Nine and five situation over a two-week period. And then the summers would go 50-50.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

And um that's always the worst part of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

Well, that wasn't the worst. I could l uh that there was parts of that where like you say, okay, that's great. But then it would it'd be the little things like, well, then on Sundays, even if it's your weekend, she gets them for church. Right. So it said in our the word the wording was you I just hate that it's it's the you know, time short.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

Yeah. And then, you know, especially when you know that they're that those 18 years go real quick.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:55

And you know, and then you split that, right? You know, it's like, uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

That's that was that's been the worst part for me.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Well, you know, so yeah, so that's that's how that landed. But then there was also the whole, well, on Sundays you'll make them available for her to take to church. And I'm like, great. So it's not like I even really get my own weekend with them. So like if I want to dodge if I want to dodge that closet, right, I've got to take them out of town. Yeah. And um, like there was one Father's Day that like she still expected the Sunday to be the rule. I go, it's fucking Father's Day, you know. And so that was like the insult to injury. It was the little things like that. Yeah. Um, it was the way the you know, the money was getting the spear and the the money was pretty much divided divided 50-50, you know. Um and uh you know it took too long to get there. Yeah. And she was pissed off that it was a 50-50 split. She wanted more. Wow. And it ended up Caesar fired her as a client. When it was old. Yeah, I'll get into that in a little bit. So yeah, so going through 2008, it was, you know, just navigating the kids. The school web turned out to be a very pro-mom situation. Gotcha. And I called them out on that when Jeffrey finally was done with the lower school. Yeah. Um, you were not fair about this. Right. And and your teachers clearly sided with Allison a lot on things, and I disagree. I disagree with them a lot. And and your teachers, first of all, are not marriage counselors, and they certainly aren't guidance counselors. Yeah, I need to shut up. You know, we did have the children go talk to the guidance counselors, and we'd get reports, and Allison would just completely ignore them. No, that she would like the one sentence that favored what she was doing and the The rest of the paragraph could be about like the kids want to see their father more, you know? Yeah. And and like totally glossed over that. We need to not talk about the the dynamics of the divorce to the children. Yeah, yeah, we do, because this kind of affects them, you know. Right. I'm not gonna call you a cunt to them or anything like that, but I'm just gonna say, mommy doesn't want you to have want me to be with you as much as she does, and that just that's not fair. And they all the kids always agreed on that. Right. That that they they wanted a 50-50 parenting plan. Yeah.

Mediation, Trial Delays, And Huge Fees

SPEAKER_01 22:30

So it was nine days of trial that we got to. A lot of stops and starts along the way. This system is such a fucking racket. I'm telling you, I if I could go back and do it over again, I'd be a divorce attorney.

SPEAKER_05 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Those guys just they they make the money. Oh, I bet. They're just the billable hours. Yeah. And um, you know, and and um so yeah, it would be like we started, I think like our first trial date was like, I want to say it was January 6th, 2009. And then it was like, well, you know, the judge's like, well, I want the two of them to go through mediation since they haven't gone through mediation. Oh, geez. Okay. Then we come back, and then it's two days here, and then okay, well, we'll resume in like eight weeks to do another round of shit. And it just it just was ongoing and ongoing for two and a half fucking years. That's insane. And finally, I'm trying to think what happened. You know, they asked me a lot, a lot they asked me more questions about business finances and stuff like that. You know, um, what these expenses were, what those expenses were, you know, did you buy this for your now girlfriend, you know, and and uh and I and they were just running all of it up to see like what child support and alimony was gonna be like because I got hit with alimony too. It wasn't enough I got hit with child support, I had to do it with alimony for a while. Wow. And uh uh, you know, and so when I do a little thing at the end of the year, like deposit money into each of my children's 529 accounts. Oh, David, the pearl clutching from the plaintiff, the side of the plaintiff, and the and the attorney is like, oh, can you believe what he did? He deposited money in his children's college accounts. And I'm like, oh, I and I I'm I I'm kind of looking at the judge like going, please tell me you're not buying this bullshit. Yeah, why was that a negative thing? I don't know. Because because that's all they tried to do is they anything, any good thing that you do, they try to put a negative spin on it. Wow, and it was just it was insidious the way it could. And I didn't like the fact that nobody was trying to find a way to um to talk Allison down from this, her parents, the attorneys, any of them. I hold them all as complicit as to how this went and how much money it cost. I got you.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Um they were just kept throwing gasoline to her.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

I feel like that was the case here, you know. Or, well, the other part is she is just so stubborn and thick headed, like she does not negotiate, she will not negotiate. Wow, it is her way or the highway, and that's part of the reason why I'm gone. So um yeah, so so that was all a brutal process. And so during that time, you know, I I I started, you know, I was seeing someone, the the person who I broke up with, I got back together with, and and we just said, look, we'll just we'll just soldier on together and do this and and what have you. And if they want to make a federal case out of it, and so but it'd be you know, it'd be funny because like when Caesar was delivering his final arguments, he's like, because he was out having and you could see his body wind up with the motion, having sex. You know, like, oh my god, could we be more puritanical about all this?

SPEAKER_03 26:12

But like the lawyer and my cousin Vinny. Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

Yes, exactly. He um exactly a perfect analogy. That's almost kind of what it felt like. Yeah, yeah. These two ute. I'm sorry, what what's a ute?

SPEAKER_03 26:36

Movie's great. It's a brilliant movie. We came across of it not too long ago, and we just stopped. You're like, my God, this is fucking brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

But when we did that, we did um we did mediation twice, and both times, like it because she earned a nickname in the legal community as the is the weeper. Because and like, so we had Sarah Shepard, who is the other attorney that she had locked down for me getting. If I'd had Sarah Shepard, this might have gone a little differently. But um she comes in to us and she's like, Oh my god, am I like in Kramer versus Kramer? She's like, I feel like we've got a Meryl Streep like performance going on in the other room. So I didn't like that mediation takes place with each party in a separate room. I didn't like that at all. Like I feel you got shit to say, you say like against the word mediation. I would kind of feel that at all because it becomes just he said she said, you know. And and because I want you to sit there and tell me why it is you think that I am not as good a parent as you are. Yeah. Like you gotta you gotta justify this to me.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

I want the whole social network scenes.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Exactly. Yeah, right. You know, I'm not gonna question whether your last name being Albrecht is Jewish or not, you know. You brought up social network, that's just a good movie. Fucking great movie, great soundtrack, too. Yeah, it is fucking nine-inch nails without being called nine-inch nails.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Justin Timberlake in that movie. God, he's so good.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

He's really fucking good in that movie. He's a fucking good movie. Um so you know, it's funny because you take on a lot, I mean, you look at divorce movies differently as well. With all because like I remember this was before I moved out. We were watching Mrs. Doubtfire, and they had been married for 14 years when they split up. And so you guys weren't married long, right? 11 years. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

There's about to be 12.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Yeah, there's something about that 14, 15, 14 to 17 year mark that I see a lot of people splitting up at that point. And I and it's like you're about to turn 40, or you're in your late 30s, early 40s, you know, and you have kids. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's just something about that time period in your life where people kind of say, uh, is there something more to life than that? It's all about crossroads, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:58

I mean, I we hit a crossroad. Yeah, and it was like, well, okay, you know, we're either gonna fucking suck this up and be like what you were talking about, right? That that marriage that's just like I honestly not good.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Honestly, David, I did not see because I did, I weighed that. I'm like, okay, could I tough this out until Jeffrey graduates from high school? And I'm like, that would have been 28 years of marriage at that point. Who knows? Like I could I could see myself like an alcohol an alcoholic. And then you think about well, what are the assets that that I would have at this point?

SPEAKER_03 29:33

And I'm saying I'm not gonna start.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

I'm not I'm not gonna earn a single fucking dime more so that she gets half of it, you know, because I am the one that has earned all the money here. Yeah, you know, it is all me. Yeah. And and and that's and that's another problem, you know, that I have with this process is they did everything they can to have an old school type divorce war take place here in courts. I do believe that people could have made this easier, they could have tempered this a lot more, they could have talked her down.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

Um, but they like you said, they just added gasoline to the fire the whole time. And I and I yes, do I have contempt? Yes, I do, absolutely I do. I have contempt for all of that. Yeah. Um so let me think. We get into 2009 and that so we kind of like 2009, 2010, we sort of just kind of entered into a system, uh, entered into a uh a routine, and um but I held on until the very end that we were gonna get 50-50 parenting plan until I didn't.

The Ruling: Support, Alimony, Tuition

SPEAKER_01 30:38

And um so it was May 23rd, 2010. I got these dates etched in my brain forevermore for two reasons. I'll get to the second uh uh for a second reason, but um Jerry, my attorney, called me and he said, Well, I just got the ruling. And he said, So it's gonna be nine and five.

SPEAKER_03 31:00

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Means she has them nine days of a two-week period, I have them five days. He goes, You have them every Wednesday, and you have them every other weekend. Okay. And I'm like, Okay. He told me about the church requirement. And then he told me you are going to be paying her this much in child support, and then you're gonna be paying this much in alimony. In addition, you will be paying 80% of the web tuition and like 80% of ancillary shit, like uniforms and soccer fees and soccer uniforms and all that. Yeah, you won't talk about getting the fucking book thrown at you. That's that is what happened. Yep. Yikes. Yep, yep. There are so many people who know this story that are just like, okay, you really you just got prison raped. Yeah, you know, and that's over the barrel for sure. It's pretty over the barrel for sure. And um, so yeah, and and it I know it was May 23rd because it was ironically the same day that the final episode of Lost aired. And it's called the End. That's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

And so is that why you watch it every year?

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Well, it's not every year. I've only watched it through nine times, asshole.

unknown 32:23

My bad.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

And um, so you know, and in that time I'm building a relationship with my children. Um, you know, and that there's one of openness. And be because what I've always maintained, I said, and I have said this in court, that I don't I'm not gonna say that either one of us does it better. We just do it differently. We have different philosophies on this. I said, but Allison's is very dictatorial, dogmatic, my way or the highway. Mine is very collaborative. Um let's talk through this, let's talk why you feel this way. Yeah. And I mean, I'll do that with an eight-year-old. I'm happy to do that, to do that, you know. But we, you know, during this time I lived in the uh apartments um at Heritage Lake off Westland, right off the Pelissippi.

Starting Over And Dating After Divorce

SPEAKER_01 33:19

And I didn't think I'd live there for three years, but I did. Yeah. And I after I moved out from there, I blocked that whole I mean I immediately blocked that whole period out of my head. But now I can go back to it because I've driven by there. I don't drive by there often anymore. Like I don't really find myself to be on Westland all that much. And um, and I'd be like, you know, we we didn't have it that bad. We built a nice little place for ourselves. You know, I had a three-bedroom apartment. Yeah. Uh Jeffrey had his own room, the girls shared a room. Uh it turned out that wasn't the greatest thing in the world. But what the fuck? I'm not, I can't, there was no such thing as a four-bedroom apartment. I wasn't gonna pay for that. Um, you know, and we had a routine as to how we did things. And and and, you know, we built a little life for ourselves, you know. I mean, I was able to have that apartment furnished in about from the time I moved out on the 23rd of February, I had already arranged furniture and everything like that. So by the she was trying to set me up for failure by me having me have the kids for the first weekend right after I moved out. Yeah. I had beds and everything in place. Everybody had a place to sleep, or they had comforters, they had sheets, they had, they had, they had furniture to store their clothes. We we were good to go. It's a mind fuck to start over. Yeah, it is, it is, but I kind of enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

Oh, yeah. No, I you know Yes, like 100%. It was the right thing to do for both of us. Yeah. And you know, the having the kids see their dad truly happy as opposed to just some sort of zombie. Yeah, you know, and they probably didn't realize it then of just how going through the motions I was, but now they see happiness and and all that. But I mean it was still just like a oh yeah, I need a fucking frying pan.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Right. Like well, and yeah, no, and so there was a lot of me going to Target and just by here's the dishes collection, you know, and and I still have those dishes, we still use those dishes, you know. I mean it's I mean, it's it's it's amazing that just and but but I was very proud of how quickly I was able to assemble a new life for them to be a part of. Yep. And you know, and and and the problem is this is like anytime like where it was a deal where like I sacrificed one of my days to go do something for me, like go see a concert or go out of town or something like that. I just didn't like how I was it made they did that so he doesn't care about the kids at all, you know. That's the kind of shit that that and also during my court case, there was a bill going through the Tennessee legislature um that would automatically default to 50-50 parenting plans. Oh wow, unless you prove otherwise. Now, where that started running into snags is well, you have the domestic violence uh networks coming out saying, you know, and it's like, oh yeah, no, of course, because you lose money if this becomes the default. There were just so many people like it should be default 50-50. Yeah. Like, unless you can prove it. And it can't just be, oh, he raised he raised his voice to me, right, you know, right. Or he yelled at the dog one day, you know, or he spanked the children. And friends, I believe we don't spank the children enough. I stand by that. I believe this. This is why we are at in this world where we are today. My daughter's funny about it. She'll be like, oh no, the beatings with the children will happen. The beatings, the beatings will begin by saying, I have had enough.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Take it to Market Square.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Exactly. Um, so uh yeah. So I mean, we built a life for ourselves in that apartment, and and it was I thought I thought I'd only be in there for a year. Yeah. I turned out and I saw the dynamic of my apartment complex change the entire time I lived there. Like it was like this when I first got there, it was this weird little kind of bachelor singles thing. You go to the pool and like just like in this where they all went to this is where my gender kind of like just really I find I laugh at the other men at other times because like you'd like when they're trying so hard to like bring the girls in and have that smarm and everything like that. And I didn't do that at the pool. I sat there, I tanned, I read my book. That's all I did. Betsy over off in the d oh on the other side of the pool, guys like yeah, yeah, but you know, Tom, just yeah, you know, just Tom Catton. You got it, exactly. And and um, but meanwhile, one of the guys who lived actually across diagonal me from across the hall, like you know, because I started dating all these women going in and out of my place, you know. And uh and yeah, yeah. So um after I found out Allison had a boyfriend, um, I was like, okay, you know, I'm then I'm going to date, then I have the right to date. If no one is gonna hold her feet to the fire over this, then I'm free to do whatever I want. Sure. And I did. Oh lordy, did I ever. Candy shop city. I don't want to be braggadocio about here that about about my sexual escapades or anything like that. But folks, let me tell you, those of you who are thinking about getting divorced, what life is like, there is sex after divorce. There's lots of sex after divorce. And so here's the cool thing is is and and when people have asked me about well, what's it like dating out there? I said, well, first of all, this you need to accept that everyone's broken. Okay, there the capacity for change is like nothing.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

It comes down to what can you live with. Yeah, sure. And yeah, just go into it with that and and so a lot of people thought that I would probably because I was turning 40 at the time, that I would show up with like a 22-year-old on my out of out of the gate, I said, no, that is just not right, like because I don't want to be a middle-aged cliche. Yeah. And instant interestingly enough, a lot of the women that I went out with were like two or three years older than I was. And they were freaks. Oh my lord. You get people water. I get some of them going, I get some of them going, well, I'd really like to have my hair pulled. I'm like, why? Why? Why do you why do you like why? Like, I don't even want to do that to you. You know? I mean shit like that, man. No, it was and so it was a very interesting, and I met many wonderful people, uh, a good many of whom I'm still friends with. Yeah, you know, and and uh and they have all gotten married or found other relationships and whatnot. And um, but that was just a very interesting time in my life. Talk about it, you know. Um, and and the woman with whom I was involved for in a 10-year relationship after that, she was uh five years younger than I. So that's about as far young as I went. Yeah. Um, but um, you know, it was it was uh it was an interesting period of your life because like one of the things in high school and college, I never felt I had that opening line to uh break the ice and kind of start because I'm not a small talk kind of guy. I mean, I'm I'm introverted. I just you know, and despite what this people listening to this podcast or who've seen me perform in music or theater may think, I'm actually really, really introverted. Um, and so I never knew like how to close the deal or anything like that. And um now, you know, in 2008, well, hi, I'm Dr. Jeffrey Ebert. Made it easy. Panties evaporate. I could see that. And and um I joke, but but it was just like it was just different. And so what I kind of the the the pitch that I had put together is okay, so I'm coming out of see, I was married 14 and a half years when I moved out, and it was 17 years actually by the time it was final. Yeah, but I said it though, I said, look, I'm coming out of a 15-year-long marriage. Um, I'm not looking for anything serious. Right. Um, if you're looking for dinner drinks, coffee, conversation, concerts, go to a play, I'm your guy. If you're looking for something physical, I'm a sure thing. Um, I just don't want to be having the where is this relationship going conversation. Right. Yeah, definitely not anytime soon. Right. And and so everyone was pretty cool about that. Yeah. And as long as you set the boundaries ahead of time. No, and you shouldn't be able to do that. Everyone was totally good with that. And and so, and and that was kind of the beginning of the whole communication part where we're like, oh, it's great when you kind of share all of this your thoughts on things ahead of time, like it makes life really easy. Yes, it does. Got it. Okay. Put that little tidbit of information away. Yeah. So yeah, so that's that's how it rolled. Yeah, so and so that was just kind of my life for a long period of time. And then um, the woman I was involved with for 10 years after that, uh, we got back together and and we had that relationship, and it was very, it was nurturing and supportive. It it had its struggles. I'll talk more about it in the in the third episode, but uh, you know, um sadly, it was a relationship that if I were to use one adjective to describe it, it was troubled. Uh always troubled. That's no good. Um, you know, she worked in the mental health field, and I thought I and I I don't say this to be mean, but I do feel it was a case of physician heal thyself. Uh and um um there there were just a lot of issues. It was a it was a very big roller coaster ride for 10 years. I should have I should have ended it a lot earlier than the 10-year mark. Um, you know, but some you know, you sometimes you get used to what you know, and I mean it's why people stay in marriages, miserable marriages, for as long as they do, because the devil they know is better than the one they don't.

SPEAKER_03 43:28

Again, no one there's so many people out there that just do not want to put forth the energy to start over.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

Yeah, it's I I I'll tell anyone it's worth it to put forth the energy to start over if again.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

If you're unhappy, you do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

No, you do it. I mean, because again, friends, life is too short to be miserable.

SPEAKER_03 43:50

Yeah, find a way and make it happen.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Yeah, you know. Yeah, it just so by the time it was done for me, so the c how the kids responded to all

Kids’ Reactions And Post-Decree Cleanup

SPEAKER_01 43:59

of it. Um Jacqueline went in, so this was like a Saturday or Sunday that we broke it to the kids, and then Jaclyn went into school on Monday and told some of her friends, and they were all very supportive about it. And they say it'll be okay. I mean, plenty of kids have already gone through Monday, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

And it's crazy how adaptable kids are, man.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

And so Juliana, however, just comes right into her kindergarten's like, my parents are getting a divorce, you know. So it um, you know, and a lot of Allison's argument throughout the case of our divorce was just that I was not deserving of 50-50, and that you know, when I had my day off on Fridays, rather than pull them out of daycare, I would rather just take my airplane flying lessons or just have a day to myself. And uh my argument to that was right, we also have Mother's Day Out programs. The very name of those is because we're trying to give mom a break. My Friday is my day off, right? You know, like that is just when I get to have my playtime, yeah, and I need that. Yeah. And like, why doesn't anybody understand that? You know? Yeah, I don't know. And so, um, but you know, I and then Jeffrey, he was just so damn young when it happened. I mean, I it was his norm. Yeah, we dealt with some issues with him when he was in daycare and whatnot. That we, you know, we moved him around a little bit till we finally landed on a place where we could stay until he could start school. Yeah. Um, I I don't know what daycare groups are supposed to do when they say, Well, your child was a bit of a behavioral problem today. Yeah, I pay for you to manage that. I mean that was just my attitude about your glorified babysitters, okay? I mean, that's what I'm paying you to do. You fucking deal with this. I've got to work to pay you guys, okay? I can't take him to the office with me. Right. You know? Yeah. And um, but that ironed itself out once he started kindergarten. Oh you know, and so yeah. So anyway, so the whole process for me was was well, I got the decision on the 23rd of May, and then there was still the cleanup afterwards, because then we we did our motions. Well, we want you to reconsider some of these. There's some things you have put in here that, like, wait, none of us talked about this. Like, seriously, they were very insidious the way they inserted things. Like, there was this whole bit Jacqueline was undergoing kind of a speech therapy, occupational therapy thing, uh, for auditory processing deficiency. And um, they slid that in as something that I was supposed to 100% cover. Oh, wow. And insurance was her insurance, Allison's insurance wasn't paying for it or anything like that. Jeez, dude. And I just kind of and and this is what really kind of makes me notch my teeth a little bit, is that these people who ran the the therapy group, they knew the dynamic. They knew, oh, we only need to ingratiate ourselves to her. He's the he's the he's the money here. He does not have any rights to like end this on his own. Like they have to both agree. So long as we tell her that their kid still needs to be coming here, we're good to go. That's they were crooks. Absolute parent child services group, they're closed now. And the the person who owned it and ran it, she's retired. And the the therapist, I think, is probably she's retired by now, too. But they were just crooks, yeah. Absolute crooks. Parent child services group, fuck you. But like they s but but also they slid that in there, and like we're trying to get this change, and they're just like, we don't have any like the court just acted like fucking retards about this. And I will say the word retard because I can. Um and um but they were it's like it's like any change that we had requested, like everyone like the pearl clutching quite literally is like, we can't believe he's asking for this. Oh my god, can you believe the audacity? You know? And I'm just like, yeah, we just like because I saw these things as being problems later on. Right. And they were. And and so that's yeah, so that's so that was actually late in the summer that we went through that. And so then by the time we finished that up, it was August. I want to say it was August 12th that it was my divorce was final. And it was 18 months to the day. That's crazy that we were no, not 18 months, two and a half years to the day that this whole process from filing to being final. That is nuts. So um there was still more to come that will be dealt with in the aftermath. Uh and and how and how that all went. Because I I mean, I I'm sure you and I each have drama that has taken place since. I mean, yours was a really short thing, but like I've kind of gotten the vibe from you. It's like that it's still a tense situation.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

No, I mean it's gotten better, but I I mean it's gotten better. Right. It's just one of those things that I Marivel's a small world. It's a small world, I have no idea what you mean. Yeah, and you know, things said and done, yeah, it's just like acted like it, you know, it wasn't ever gonna get back to me and stuff. It's like you're gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

I'm gonna tell you what that is where I actually was lucky because we kept our personal lives on the Knox County side of the river. Yeah. And so what was going on up there really didn't have a lot of effect on because at the time all I had was the Marival office. It didn't really affect that all that much. Um I had a staff that was very understanding. Yeah.

Work Fallout, Health Scares, Part Three

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Um I'll never forget the day that I had come back from the lunch that Allison and I had, where we it was made clear, okay, we're this is our final This is our 37th peace negotiation with Iran. You know. Um it it was our it was our last pleasant uh somewhat chat, but it kind of laid out the terms of things. Yeah. That indeed we were going forward with a divorce. I remember going back to my office after that, and I called the team into my office manager's office, and I said, So here's the deal. Uh this is happening. And one of my assistants just broke into tears. And I'm seriously, uh bless her heart. And uh and then one of my other assistants said, How are you? I said, pretty fucking far from okay right now.

SPEAKER_04 50:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

And uh and so they were very that particular team, while not the best team I ever had, they were certainly very tolerant of everything I had to go through during that two and a half year period. And um, so you know, and it's it sucks because there are days where you think you're gonna go to court, and then the last minute, you know, you get a call from your attorney saying, well, nah, excuse me, and it's a Thursday. Well, how am I to you can I bill you for the lost revenue that I have have on this? Because I canceled my days to do this. Right. And I I really wish there were things in place where you could do that. Like, don't waste my fucking time here, guys. Right. You know, this isn't about you, this is about me. And I'm the client, I'm paying you. You fucking make sure, like, we have a court date set, that date stays firm. And um so, but no, the team was very tolerant about it at the time. And um, and at and and as that as it all wound down and everything became actually it became final, and then after that, my first office manager um had to leave because of medical issues, and that was like two weeks after my divorce was final, and I never saw her again. We talked a few times on the phone, and then um three years later she had passed on. Oh, geez. And uh so, you know, yeah, it was um a lot of endings took place during that period of time in my life. Uh, it was also the first time we discovered my dad had this blood disorder that would ultimately turn into multiple myeloma. Yeah. And uh, you know, and and so yeah, we had a lot, a lot going on during that time. Usually happens that way. It is. So we're kinda I think we've kind of hit pretty much all on part two. Um wanna talk about some pleasant stuff before we go on to part three?

SPEAKER_03 52:53

I think we'd knock it out.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Okay, all right. Okay, so part three will be the aftermath. And um and uh yeah, so just kind of where our lives are at and how it is. And you know, but like I think if you listen to what we've had to say on this, is that seriously, I mean, if you're just if you're just not I mean, there are no guarantees in life, and you know, we we we go into these relationships with other people and we you know we go in and we th we hope for the best, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. You only get one life, you only get one life, guys. So don't, you know, don't don't fuck it away. And uh and uh you know if you gotta bail, you gotta bail. I mean, you know, I mean I I hate to put it that way, but you know, I mean, and it's uh No, it's true though. It is what it is. All right. Oh, by the way, what have we been drinking today?

SPEAKER_03 53:44

I've been sucking down your yinglings.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

And yet you sucked down the last one, dude. So you gotta figure out what to move on there. Mango cart. I see mango cart in your future. I don't know. I've never had it. You never had it? I actually quite like it. It's a good summer beer. Okay. Urban Artifact used to make this beer called um, oh fuck. What was it called? Um fuck. Uh shit. Urban Artifact made a beer called Kaleidoscope. Oh. And it was like pineapple juice, orange juice, beer. It was like the perfect summer beer. Yeah. And it's kind of what mango cart. I've been trying to find a beer that replicates that a little bit. Mango kart's a little bit like that. Um, but I you know the other thing I found out. You know how I used to drink kataaba white zombie? Kataba doesn't exist right now. Really? Yeah. They closed their Charlotte Brewery. Whoa. And like they're like, oh, we're gonna reopen. Well, that's been like a year now, and so there's no more white zombie out there. And I'm like, you fucking microbrews just break my heart every time.

SPEAKER_03 54:47

Yeah, it's hard to get attached.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

It's it is, it is hard to get attached. Like the only group I can rely on is like Highland.

SPEAKER_03 54:54

Yeah, and that's not even I mean, that's not even a you know, you got the to me, that's like a full-on like right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 55:00

Yeah, because you got the Gaelic and then you got the cold mountain release and all that shit, you know.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

And a Gaelic ale is like a staple of every beer.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

It has been from like anytime I go to Aubrey's, that has been the beer that I get.

SPEAKER_03 55:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

I love it. It's all Aubrey's. That was before I knew anything about Gaelic, you know?

SPEAKER_03 55:16

So even better. Yeah, Aubrey's, right? Oh man, most consistent place I think I've ever had.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

Right? It's crazy. Crushed my soul when they closed the branch in Farragut.

SPEAKER_03 55:27

Is it not here?

SPEAKER_01 55:28

No. Oh, they got rid of that years ago. Oh. It's not like a salon because they didn't have the parking space. I say, you know the parking space, go to the fucking one in Oak Ridge. There's like no parking space. You just share that with Panera. It's insane. Really? It's insane over there. There's six spots, right? Yeah, seriously. In Oak Ridge, it's insane. They have no parking. Yeah, you know, and then of course, fucking the one in Maribel, that spills over into like, yeah, you know, now you're trying to pull out while the people in line for chicken shack chick or uh yeah, chicken salad chick. Chicken salad chick, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:00

It's terrible. It's awful over there.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

So, like the only one we can wholly endorse is like either the Cedar Bluff or the Lenore City ones.

SPEAKER_03 56:07

The Cedar Bluff one's pretty cool. Oh, it's pretty the one in off of Kingston Pike back in behind or paper mill. That one's awesome. Oh, yes, that one, right. Yes, that one's awesome, awesome. That is awesome, awesome. I've I I meet a lot of dentists there.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

Yeah, that place is great.

SPEAKER_03 56:22

Yeah, but most consistent food ever.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

You can count on it. Yeah, what's your go-to sandwich?

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Oh, I would the the their spicy chicken, the Raging Chagan. Raging Cajun. Yeah, man, that thing is killer.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

That's killer. Yeah, that that that slaps. For a long time, uh, I I did the strawberry salad and I would change out the uh chicken for tuna. And I would change out the honey mustard for fat-fruit raspberry vinaigrette. Nothing wrong with that. Is pretty is pretty solid. Yeah. Good restaurant. Good. Two drinks then again.

SPEAKER_03 56:51

Holy endorses. Tazzies fucking shit the bed yesterday. When? Yes. What'd they do? It just wasn't good. I like it. It's first time. What do you get? They're black and chicken sandwich, but their fries were overcooked, and I just didn't like it. Okay, and I could tell that they changed the menu too.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

You know who has the best fries?

SPEAKER_03 57:08

Chop House and Maryl, that new one.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

The one Alcoa?

SPEAKER_03 57:12

Yes. I've been there twice already. It's fucking phenomenal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

35 North.

SPEAKER_03 57:17

Oh, I don't doubt that.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

35 North have has great fries. I don't doubt that. We just ate there, we ate there uh the other night. I like that. Yeah, it's good. It's all good.

SPEAKER_03 57:25

They still doing they're not doing food trucks.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

It's all like it's all there. And and I honestly do think they have one of the more diverse menus out there that's a great spot. It's so great. Like especially for you. And seriously, they've got the solid most solid beer and liquor menu. Oh, that bar is awesome. Of any place. Yeah, it is. I just a cool bar. It's a cool bar. I have lots of love. I have lots of love for 35 North. No, our place is here either. Go there, we go to Perea for Mexican over there in the Renaissance Plaza. So anyway. Okay, guys, so we've bullshitted enough here on uh Divorce Part 2. We will go to Divorce Part 3 in our next episode. So y'all try to be decent to each other and don't run up those attorneys' bills, okay?

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Cheers.