Certified Fertility Doula - Get the Support You Need with Jess Tims

In today's episode of Health Youniversity, we explore something that doesn't get nearly enough attention on the fertility journey: the kind of support that holds you together while medicine does its work.

Dr. Susan sits down with Jess Tims — certified fertility doula, Reiki master, and founder of Her Fertility Support — whose path to this work came through her own two-year experience with unexplained infertility. What she couldn't find then, she's now dedicated to creating for others.

You'll learn what a fertility doula actually is (and how it's different from a fertility coach or therapist), why the research Jess presented at the American Society of Reproductive Medicine confirms that feeling supported genuinely improves outcomes, how to find a certified doula in an unregulated field, what the internal dialogue of "I'm broken" does to the body (and how to interrupt it), and how support comes in many forms: 1:1, group, or fully self-guided.

This conversation is for you if you're navigating IVF or preparing for it, if you've experienced pregnancy loss and need a safe place to process it, you're a high-performing woman who needs to show up in the world and go through fertility treatments, or if you simply want to understand the difference between fertility coaches, doulas, and therapists.

Website: https://www.herfertility.support/podcasts/her-fertility 

💻 About Susan Fox: https://www.healthyouniversity.co/about

Take your 5-Element Fertility Quiz:  http://yourfertilityquiz.com/

Detox to De-Stress:  View the FREE Masterclass on the importance of detoxification to prepare for a healthy pregnancy:  https://susanfox1.easywebinar.live/gentle-detox

Learn about our program entitled Your Fertile Health: https://www.healthyouniversity.co/programs

Schedule a Fertile Health Assessment: https://www.healthyouniversity.co/your-fertile-health-call

Let us journey with you as you navigate your fertile health. Connect with me:

🎧 iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/health-youniversity-with-dr-susan-fox/id1592763186 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Hello and welcome back to our episode today of at Health University where we cover all things on the reproductive health spectrum from fertility to pregnancy and postpartum and perimenopausal into the menopausal years. And today we're going to be focusing on fertility, and we're going to be focusing on a very important aspect of considering support through your fertility, especially if you're going through an IVF process, by using a fertility doula. And so we have today as our special guest Jess Timms, and I'm going to turn my head to the side a bit while I read your bio. Jess is a certified fertility doula, and I'll want to know more about that, a Reiki master and founder of Her Fertility Support. She hosts the Her Fertility Podcast and serves as a peer advisor with Resolve, an ad advocating for inclusive, accessible, and holistic fertility support for all individuals. She has a passion for supporting others on their fertility journey so they can find their own power during a time that oftentimes can otherwise feel powerless. So welcome, Jess. It's so nice to see you. We've had the pleasure of having some conversation off-camera. Um, and I'm delighted to see you again. Tell me how did how did you become decide to become a fertility, uh, a fertility doula? What does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

Yeah, thank you, Dr. Fox. It's such an honor to be here and to share more about what fertility doulas are and do. And it was really born out of my own experience with infertility. Um, it took me over two years. I had the classic unexplained infertility and found myself really frustrated. You know, as a as a doer, as a type A personality, I wanted answers. And it was a time where I just felt really um dark. Like it's really the best way I can describe it. I didn't feel like myself. I felt very out of control, um, which I didn't didn't like. Um, and that's the type A. It's the type A. And so looking back on it, you know, I was I worked with my doctor, I learned a lot, um, and was able to conceive. And I have a beautiful, he's now six years old, so a really active son. Um, but looking back on that time, I don't recognize myself, right? It was just these, these really dark years. And I I just thought there had to be a better way, right? There had to be a better way to navigate that time with someone with support. I wasn't really someone that gravitated to like a group, like a support group. So a much more personalized one-on-one type of support. And that's how I found my path to being a fertility doula.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Okay. So, what is a fertility doula and how does that differentiate itself from other fertility support experts? Like for there's, you know, there's nursing support and things like of that nature. But what distinguishes a fertility support doula? And why would somebody be choosing a certified? And I think that's really, really important because you know, we we do need people who have the expertise that they wish to have in order to really help support us best.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Yeah, I agree. I come from a lot of education. I'm a master's, I have, you know, I was an auditor before I got into this. So certification was really important to me. Um, and so a fertility doula, you know, most people, most people don't know that support is available. And there is so much support available, whether it's a fertility coach, like you mentioned, fertility doulas, of course, there's therapists who specialize in fertility. But what differentiates the doulas is we are really the person walking beside you on this journey. It's very personalized. You have access to your fertility doula typically through, you know, all the modes of communication, whether it's text and phone call, video sessions, in person. Um, and it's somebody who's educated. They're a non-medical professional, but they are absolutely educated in fertility, education, awareness, but they also have education in emotional support.

unknown 5:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

So it's much more of this. I like to say we hold space and walk beside you on the journey where we might be, you know, we might be making recommendations here and there, but it's really to hold that space for that emotional journey. Um, because you know, a lot of times you want to talk with someone about like what might seem like a silly question, or you want to share your experience, but it might be too personal to share with family and friends, or you might just not want their feedback. And so a fertility doula is really creating that space and carving out that space. Um one difference, you know, I get a lot like what's the difference between this and a fertility coach because they are very similar. Um, but we don't always have an end goal, right, when we're working together. So with a fertility doula, of course, we want to get pregnant, right? Like that's typically the goal. But it's also about just holding the space in between. So really carving out that container so that you can have that human connection and experience in the container and then go about living your daily life and being able to show up at work as yourself, be able to show up in your relationships as yourself because you're giving yourself that that time with Adula to process and get all that energy out.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Okay. Okay. And so if if I'm if I were to sort of try to restate it in a way that would make sense to the way my brain works, also type type A, um, I I call it A minus anymore. Age, age, age is gonna be a minus. Um it seems to me that a fertility coach is going to help like check the boxes, you know, so you know, these are your meds, this is your schedule, let me help you understand the process. Whereas a fertility doula is is almost between a cross between a coach and a therapist, maybe, maybe not not providing you know professional therapy per se, but providing, as you say, that space, that container, so that the person going through the fertility journey can actually unpack, unload. If there's a need for it for a therapist, I presume you'd be making, or you if you perceive a need, you'd be making that referral and so forth. But yes, you I I see your point, and I know, and I know it personally from having helped women throughout the years, that it's really challenging to be going through the fertility journey and having the rest of your life be present. I hear so often people saying, well, well, well, when I finish my fertility, when I finish my embryos are frozen or my eggs are frozen, then I'll get back to life. And I will, and we've said this off camera before, your life is happening right now while you're going through it. And and frankly, you know, oftentimes we find that the outcomes are either as successful or not based upon how well you feel supported and how then therefore your cortisol can be lowered and inflammatory markers can be down and all of that.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Yeah, absolutely. And it's so interesting when I I knew what I wanted to do, right? When out of my own experience. And so I looked at becoming a therapist, and I am a huge fan of therapy, and we absolutely recommend that when it's needed. And I my my really close cousin is a therapist, and so her and I talk about this all the time. The thing that stopped me was the limit, the limit of a licensure. So therapists and their licensure have to maintain uh a distance in the relationship, and that's part of their protocol, and it's a beautiful um distance to maintain so that they remain objective and all of that. And as a doula, I can I can be closer with you. I can you can text me when you need to. You can reach out when you get that negative pregnancy test, and we'll have our scheduled session, but in that moment you have access as well. So it's it's a little more got it, um, of a softer approach.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Yeah. So it's so they have it's it's not wait until your next appointment. They can they can actually ping you if something's really kind of going um a little sideways and they and they can't wait till the next appointment because yeah, again, what's happening now is happening now. So yeah, got it. So who who would be the if if you could design the perfect uh person for you, client for you, who would what what what would I say her, what would her life look like? When would she contact you? Um, and yeah, I'll just leave it at that for the time being.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, it's such a great question. It's probably my most common question, like when does somebody work with you? Who is that? And it's really somebody who's ready to get support for themselves. Um, and so that ranges. I've you know worked with people who are preparing for pregnancy and they want to make sure they have all the information possible and somebody to have like be a sounding board. And then of course I work with people as they're navigating IVF because IVF is a process that nobody expects to be going through and it is so new. And so having so many new experiences and having somebody be able to walk beside you. Um, and then of course, I I have a real special space in my heart for people who've experienced loss and navigating that with someone. Um for me, I to answer the question of like who's the most ideal, if I could create her, she's someone who wants to remain in her power while she's taking on this challenge of infertility that she didn't expect to have. Um, but she wants to remain in that power and be really clear as she's making decisions moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah, that's great. I mean, I I can really feel the advocacy behind it. So it really does let this person uh not go down the rabbit holes of wondering, am I doing the right thing? Because she's able to bounce these ideas and suggestions and guidance and data off of you. Yeah, that's wonderful. And yes, you you make a very salient point that nobody says, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go through an IVF journey to you know to bring my babies into the world. Um, it is it it it starts as a trauma of sorts. And you know, even the most resilient of people are are not immune to the the various impacts of it. It's as you say, it's a new language, you're actually, you know, you're mixing medications and injecting medications and all of these things that can feel quite scary because because they're new and foreign. So I think having someone that you can just say, okay, it's 10 o'clock at night, I'm mixing my meds, am I doing this right? And then just being able to, because sometimes if you're trying to ring up the you know the the nurse on call, you're in you're in a cue of five, perhaps. Or yeah, and and and or you'll get referred to the YouTube video, but that's not you've already you've already watched the YouTube video and that's not getting giving you the answer you need. So I I think that I can really, really feel the value in this. And then if someone were to say, okay, um, you know, I've been trying to conceive, I'm thinking possibly it's time to, you know, go into the IVF route because I know I want you know multiple children and I'm 35 years old. I'm just kind of creating a picture. When when would that person call you? Before she calls the IVF center, after she calls the IVF clinic, um, or does it not really matter?

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Yeah, it doesn't really matter. Everybody's process is their own. Um, and I I think the beauty of the fertility doula, really training and certification is we're equipped to support you at any stage in the journey. Um, my background is in communication. I have a master's in communication, and so a lot of this is around this like internal dialogue of like, I'm gonna go use IVF, what does that mean about me? You know, that internal loop that keeps playing, and then that conversation with your doctor, and how are you asking the question? What questions do you need to ask? Then the relationship with your partner, because that becomes a whole dynamic. And so being able to have this person with you beside you, whether that's virtually or physically with you or available on call, it can help really make it such a clearer process. Yeah. And so it's at any point. Um, but ideally, right, like the ideal situation would be they're building their support team before they're going into IVF. Right. Um, to of course make that first IVF cycle as successful as possible, right? Like you mentioned, having that support. We have research to show that support decreases cortisol. And I'm a big believer in the mind-body connection and all the things. So absolutely we're not separate. Yeah, they're definitely not separate. Um, so the sooner you can build that support team, or even even if it's one session, right? And you just want to get some some information before you go in, I think it's a great way to set yourself up.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And as as you were speaking of all of the various relationships, you know, uh another one is, and then you need to get up the next morning and lead your team, or you know, or or present a case, or be or be in the ER. If you're in ER, like you know, that like this affects people from all spectrums of life. It has no bias toward education, race, um, any any of these things.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

So yeah, I think that that's I just got the full body choose because I do I currently have an ER nurse as a client, a doctor as a client, CEO, actress, model, right? There it does not matter. And and typically it is high performing women who have to show up in the world as their authentic, wonderful, powerful selves. And then this journey can take a lot of that. So it's really being able to continue being you in this process because you have a container and someone to support you.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

So, how do what what is the the certification process? Like what does it mean to be certified? Because again, people can have amazingly well-intentioned desire to be supportive, and if they don't have the education, they they may create more trouble, Frank, or conflict or yeah, problems.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

100%. And I think especially in this field with fertility, there's information coming out all of the time, right? We are advancing year after year. What I what I learned four years ago when I got certified is different from what I'm learning now. Um, so the the unique part about doulas um is, and I'm definitely on the advocacy side of this, and part of my work is to help regulate this profession. Um, doulas in in general, they are not regulated on a national level. And so there is a challenge in that, um, in that you can call yourself a doula without being certified, right? That's what that means. Um, and so it is essential that you find a doula, regardless of if it's a fertility doula, birth doula, postpartum doula, death or bereavement doula who is certified because they don't have to be to call themselves that. Unlike you know, most professionals, um, you need that to call yourself that. So it's essential that you find someone that's certified. Um, there are certification programs all over the world for fertility doulas. Um, what I will say is the one that I went through years ago was pretty limited in the knowledge. So I actually created a new certification program, which is how her fertility support was born. Um so yeah, it's you know, we live in an information-rich age and women need more than information. And so most of the certifications available are wonderful information-based certifications.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

Please connect with us for a fertility assessment call at the link below. We'd love to learn a bit about you and share our resources. And make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel so that you never miss an episode.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Um, but there was this missing piece. This, this well, I will never forget this. I recently got certified. I'll share a brief story. And um my first call, right? Like a first client call, I was so excited. And I get on the call and she just asks me very clearly, she goes, How can you support me with the pain I feel after having a miscarriage? And I was like, Well, you know, I have all this information, right? Like I have all this stuff I can share with you about your psychal health and your hormones, and but I had no training for that part, that emotional part. So that led me into more training and more years of learning, which I love to do, but it also created a new certification. So her fertility support, we certify fertility doulas. Um and it is a mix of, of course, Western and Eastern medicine modalities, but also how to hold space and emotional support for people.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

Beautiful. Well, we'll be sure to have that link in the show notes because and and that is available for, as you say, people who are already certified as fertility doulas. So, folks, if you're listening and you're saying, wow, I'd like to get in on that, you might need to get certified first. Is there a um, in fact, you will need to get certified first if I heard you correctly, is there a um national resource of certified fertility doulas? No. No. Oh wow, okay. So it's a bit of a needle in a haystack kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Yeah, so it is an emerging field, as I like to say. So I sit on the board for the there is a national doula certification board. And I sit on, I'm a board member, and um they only certify birth and postpartum and bereavement doulas. So I'm actively working to have fertility doulas be recognized under that. Um, and it we're getting there, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Like we're getting there, but it starts because it has to start. So yeah, wonderful. Okay, well then I'm sure people can uh uh find a certified fertility doula through you. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's it's it's a network before it becomes an organization.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

So yes, and that's what it is. It is a network. Um, there is an I will say there is an international um fertility coach association, which I'm also a part of. And so we're building it. Um and you know, we really recognize the need for regulation and you know, certification around this profession because it is so needed.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah. Okay, that's great. You know, you talked about advocacy and and off-camera and in in prior conversation, we talked about the delightful um um elevation of the profession, of the uh complementary and integrative medicine profession within the reproductive medicine field, and you were invited to speak at the most recent American Society of Reproductive Medicine event, which is a huge deal. So tell us tell us about that, tell us what you spoke about, tell us how it went.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Thank you. Yeah, it was it was a highlight of my year to speak at the ASRM conference, and I got to share my research on how support impacts the fertility journey. So we already have research to show that having support benefits your fertility outcomes, right? And so what I was able to share was that it doesn't matter the type of support. So across I lead a group, I have an online support group that's free for anybody who's interested in that. Um I'll share that resource with you. Of course, I do one-on-one support and I have a self-guided support system as well, regardless of the type of support. As long as you feel supported, your outcomes will be benefited. And I do think it takes a leap of faith for people. And this is really where the conversation around the research landed at ASRM, where it takes a leap of faith to advocate for yourself and ask for support. And you might not know that it's available, or you might try one thing, right? You might, you might try a support group and it wasn't for you. And it's continuing to find the thing that works for you, and you will. It just might take a little more effort. And so really lowering the barriers and the conversation at ASRM was around how can practitioners help lower those barriers and make sure that their patients are feeling supported. And if they're not, how can they help find them resources or guide them to that? And I was blown away by the receptivity of the community there. So it's, you know, it's doctors, it's reproductive endocrinologists, it's all of these amazing people in the field. And they fully believe in the support piece and they're looking for resources. And I was blown away by how receptive they were, and it was a very wonderful experience.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

That's beautiful because that that that is that is a progression. You know, that was not the case 23 years ago when I started in the field. It was very much, well, maybe this can help you de-stress, but it has but you know, apples and oranges, you know, it don't don't even don't even think that it's going to change your outcomes. And then years, decades, you know, research, you know, double blind research was able to um prove that in fact it does improve outcomes. And thankfully, grassroots, the patients were demanding more than stim my follicles, retrieve my eggs, make my embryos, transfer the embryos. Um, because they they had an innate understanding of how well they felt during the process would determine how successful was their outcome.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

That's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

It's such a beautiful, you know, conception is. Such a sacred process, right? And I am a full believer in the technology we have. It's so fun living in 2025 where we have access to so much technology information that when you remove that human connection from the experience, it becomes really tricky. And you're separating from that, you know, that inner connection. So we're trying to bring all that together. Yes. Right. It doesn't, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

You said that beautifully. So we've got all the data, but we are we are human still. So we can consume all the data, but but if if we're not consuming it and getting support as a human, we're not assimilating all that data as it even perhaps as it was intended. We're not eliminating the wasteful data that doesn't really apply to us because again, in the overabundance of data, sometimes we're getting inundated with things that are not even applicable to our story. So yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, it is natural. Yeah, I think that I think we're gonna, I hope we're gonna see more and more and more of this as you know AI continues to take off, a bit of a balance of the scales of yes, AI, pleased, you know, uh it's it's got so much to offer, but not at the cost of you know, tech not not technology at the cost of humanity.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yes, I agree. Yeah, so well said. And I think we're starting to tap into what you've always known, right? With really the eastern side where it is all connected and we can't separate it.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

And yeah, we we giggle a little bit when when science discovers you know a system that we just had a different name to, and all of a sudden it's a new discovery that we've got these pathways, and we kind of just you know snicker a little bit behind our hands that saying, yes, we've always called that the San Jiao or something like that.

unknown 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

This intercon, and it is about the interconnectedness. And the other thing in the Chinese medicine field is at which I think is so beautiful, is that we don't rely on a diagnosis. We would say the diagnosis is a name for insurance policies given to a pattern of imbalances that have happened perhaps for decades, perhaps in utero, perhaps you know, generational. So you know, so it it it as opposed to naming the diagnosis and treating the diagnosis, we want to restore balance to the whole system because we are a whole system, including, as you mentioned, mind-body, you know, what what our mind thinks will affect how our body uh behaves or responds.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Yeah, absolutely. And for me, it's so important. Like, if women are listening to this and hearing this, like I know the experience so well of like you're in it and you want you want that, right? You want the holistic approach. You also might be using these technologies like IVF, but it's in your daily walk of life, right? That you are thinking that something's wrong with you, or right, like what's wrong with me? I'm broken. I my body's not doing what it was designed to do, and you just have this internal dialogue that is so degrading, and then that you know elicits all of these emotions like shame and then fear and grief and all the things. And so you don't have to sit in that alone, right? There are people like you, Dr. Fox, who can like help the body, people like me who can support you through it, and it's just being brave enough to really elicit that support and go seek it out. And I believe, especially as women, we weren't designed to do this all alone.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

We certainly weren't designed to do it all alone, and we and and and we've been conditioned to to you know uh follow the the sort of the male pattern, if you will. We we refer to it as the young that sort of can do, pull up your bootstraps, you know, put a put a smile on your face and get it done when there's just too much to get done for one person. We're we're you know, we're not supposed to be isolated this way, and and the a fertility journey can feel so isolating. And sometimes we may not be having conscious negative self-talk, but when some but then you know you're at the Thanksgiving dinner table and someone's saying, Oh, are you gonna try it? Or when's the next one gonna come? And you're and you know, it's a it's a a twist of the knife in your heart because you know you're just gonna say, Oh, you know, maybe, or make it, you know, if everybody laughs about, oh, have a glass of wine and take a vacation and it'll happen when they don't know what you've been going through. So having someone who, as you say, sits with you, witnesses you, honors you through the process, I think takes a lot of the burden of the process away. So you can just, you know, have your own agency, improve your chances of success, and then really, you know, be able to trust and and again be present with the pregnancy and not and not worry, like, oh, did I miss something along the way?

SPEAKER_01 28:15

100%. Yeah. You know, pregnancy is always right the goal, and we love that when that happens. But for me, the best thing to hear is when they say I feel better. Yeah. I'm like, okay, great. Like I feel better. It's just like, yes, we're we're doing something right here.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Well, and I would, I I I don't know if I can't substantiate this, but uh, but I believe it with every fiber of my being that if a woman is pregnant and is not feeling safe and conscious, I mean, that is going to affect the the you know, sort of the nervous system of the baby as well. I mean, they're communicating with all of the uh, you know, neurotransmitters and is there adequate blood flow or is there inflammation? So really getting that support you need. If it feels too weird to get it for yourself, get it for your baby. Because we can oftentimes do for our for others what we don't always feel at liberty to do for ourselves. So to to I I want to be mindful of your time and the viewers and listeners' time, but to recap, people can see you in person, uh and then and or they can take your course and have a DIY kind of thing, and or they can attend um drop-ins for for Q ⁇ As that you're doing. And all of this is uh accessible through your website. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Yeah, everything is at herfertility.support. And yes, we have uh it's all available virtually. So we would meet on a video call for one-on-ones. We have a virtual support group support that meets once a month. It's a beautiful space. We call it the fertility support circle. Um, and then we have a self-paced, guided. If you're really the DIY type and you want to do this on your own, I understand because I was like that. So we have a DIY support, it's a library of resources for you. Um, and yes, it's very accessible. Like that was one of my biggest goals was you know, you don't have to be a celebrity to get this type of support. And so you can do a single session, a session package, whatever works best for you. It's very flexible and customizable. It's buffet style. Buffet style.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah, you want when you say, you know, a DIY, I'm a DIY person as well, and not necessarily by for any other reason uh than time, right? We live, we do have the squeeze of time and space. So my program as well, I mean, there are lots of membership programs out there, and I thought this people there there is a population of people who absolutely don't need another membership or another appointment. And if they can just self-pace, and again, I think that builds agency and empowerment. Um, I there's there's a lot of value to that, and then get the coaching if and as you need. And you know, if we've if we've done our courses well, they probably won't need very much of that because it's it's right the the coaching is right there in the in the modules themselves.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Yes, yeah. I have a question for you if we have a few minutes. Imagine the yang being the masculine, and I'm I'm so on board with that. Is there its equivalent or it's other sign? Yes, yin.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

We have the yin and the yang. So the yin is the more okay, if you would say divine feminine, it's darkness. You know, think of the where where do our ovaries live? They're deep inside, it's watery, it's kind of mystical and invisible, but we know it's there because we ovulate. And yang is more of the sort of the it's brighter, it's external, it's more about the sun and the visible. And of course, when you think of our different gonads, we know what ours are on the inside and theirs are on the outside. So, yes, I mean that that that that's a very, very brief description, but yes, that's and that's why we we all have some yin and some yang within us. That's when you see that kanji sign with the white and the black, and the white has a dot of black in it, and the black has a dot of white in it to complete that full circle. We we are we are always all of it, and our goal is to be in balance and in harmony with the yin with the yang and the yang with the yin so that we can really feel um whole.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

That's what it's all about, and that's why I wanted to ask because it's such it's such a I I could talk to you about this all day. It is, you know, it just feels so complete, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Because it is so thank you. Oh, my pleasure. I could uh likewise, I could talk all day. It be and I think uh also because it feels um it feels of course that you know, people hear this and they go, oh, of course, because we feel it in our bones, in our viscera when we say something like, are you, you know, are are you more, you know, outbursting, angry, or are you more you know inward and depressed or something like that? You know, we we know these things. Um, and so it's I think that's where the uh Chinese medicine is so brilliant in that it doesn't try to uh it doesn't try to make too difficult the understanding of what's happening and what's maybe going a little sideways, and what's going a little sideways is is the direction to how we can get back to balance again.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

So beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah. So I want to thank you for your time. Again, we could chat all day, but we all we all we all live in that time space continuum as well. And so, viewers, listeners, thank you for your time. Jess, Jess's information will be in the show notes, links to her website where you can then access all of the courses and the other uh the other offerings she has. We know your time is valuable and we appreciate you spending it with us. We also know that you are probably one in five people who may be struggling with what I refer to as sub-fertility. I don't like I try not to use the word infertility because I think it can be a bit of a um a stop, you know, a or an exclamation point for that matter. Um so please share, please share this episode with at least five people. You know, like, comment. We will want to take into you know into consideration any comments, anything that we may have uh not clarified or anything that you might want that we haven't explained. So um do do feel free. This is this is a conversation that we're having with you. So thanks for thanks for sharing in the conversation. Jess, thank you so very much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Thank you, Dr. Fox. Pleasure.