Postpartum Hormone Tracking: When? Why? How? with Rose Mackenzie

She had a baby. Then her cycle disappeared — and nobody told her what that actually meant, or when it might come back, or whether she could get pregnant again before it did. Rose McKenzie has spent over a decade helping women understand their hormones in the moments when they feel most invisible: irregular cycles, postpartum, perimenopause. And she'll tell you plainly — the postpartum body is not a mystery. It's a system coming back online. The problem is nobody's watching the data.

Rose is the clinical manager at Mira and a natural family planning practitioner with more than 10 years of experience helping women use hormone tracking not just for fertility, but for whole-body health awareness. Today she joins Dr. Susan Fox for a conversation about what's actually happening to your hormones after birth — and why tracking them postpartum is one of the most informed things a new mother can do, whether she wants to conceive again, avoid conceiving, or simply understand her own body.

You'll learn why your hormones don't flip back on like a light switch after birth — and what the slow train analogy actually tells us about your return to cycling, why ovulation can return as early as eight weeks postpartum even while breastfeeding — and why that matters more than whether your period has come back, what the Lactational Amenorrhea Method (LAM) actually requires — and why almost everyone gets "kicked out" of it sooner than they expect, why a positive LH surge is not confirmation of ovulation — and what progesterone has to do with it, what "cycle wonky" means and why your first one to four cycles back are not your baseline, what the teeter-totter between prolactin and the body's drive to ovulate looks like on a hormone chart, how intentionally disrupting your nursing pattern — carefully and with support — can help jump-start ovulation for those trying to conceive while still breastfeeding, why tracking postpartum hormones led to two PCOS diagnoses that conventional medicine would have missed entirely, what Mira actually measures and why an LH strip alone doesn't give you the full picture, and why Mira is data — not a diagnosis, not a treatment plan, and not a standalone method for avoiding pregnancy. 

This episode is for you if you've just had a baby and have no idea when your hormones will return or what "normal" even looks like right now, you're breastfeeding and want to understand whether pregnancy is actually possible for you right now, you want to conceive again and aren't sure if your body is hormonally ready, you've been assuming your period has to come back before ovulation does, you're curious about natural family planning and want to understand how hormone tracking fits into it, or you want to stop floating around postpartum and start actually knowing what your body is doing. 

Support your fertility journey with Preconception Plan at Health Youniversity. Learn more here: https://healthyouniversity.co/programs  

💻 About Susan Fox: https://www.healthyouniversity.co/about

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Detox to De-Stress:  View the FREE Masterclass on the importance of detoxification to prepare for a healthy pregnancy:  https://susanfox1.easywebinar.live/gentle-detox

Learn about our program entitled Your Fertile Health: https://www.healthyouniversity.co/programs

Schedule a Fertile Health Assessment: https://www.healthyouniversity.co/your-fertile-health-call

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello and welcome to today's episode of Health University, where we discuss all things fertility, pregnancy, and postpartum, perimenopause and the preperimenopause phase. Today we're going to focus on that postpartum timeframe, and I'm delighted to have with us Rose McKenzie, who's going to talk with us about the importance of hormone tracking during this postpartum timeframe, how, when, and why. She's the clinical manager at Mira and assists healthcare professionals and providers to successfully use MIRA with their patients. With over 10 years of experience as a natural family planner, Rose has extensive experience assisting women using Mira Monitor for hormone monitoring and health promotion, including for women tracking their hormones in a regular cycle or irregular cycles and postpartum. This is what we're covering today, postpartum amenorrhea or chemo-induced menopause, as well as natural perimenopause. So, welcome Rose. Thank you so much for coming. I know we just had a conversation not too long ago about using the importance of using a hormone tracker like Mira for the PCOS person who has irregular cycles. And then somehow in the course of that conversation, it came up about the importance of using it postpartum. And it truly, it was like one of those light bulb moments for me. So I really appreciate you coming back and teaching us like what why, when, and how would we consider using hormone trackers in that postpartum timeframe? So welcome.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yes, thank you for having me be here. I think postpartum is actually PCOS or postpartum are one of my favorites because those are two time frames when people don't usually understand their hormones as well or they feel less confident. And I always want women to understand what their hormones are doing, what they're supposed to be doing, and how you can track them. So happy to have this conversation too.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Beautiful. Yes, yes. So uh we we started by saying, you know, we think about the hormone tracker being for fertility. That was our last conversation. Why would a person consider using a hormone tracker in the postpartum time frame?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Well, so believe it or not, your hormones always matter. And so if you're from puberty to menopause and you have ovaries, even if the ovaries rates now are being, let's say, suppressed because you've just had the baby and you're breastfeeding, you're not just zero. Your hormones are not zero. Although sometimes when you're postpartum, you might feel like your hormones dropped off the clean path.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

Yes, indeed.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

So it is I like to give the analogy of like when you've had the baby, you have your hormones come crashing down to nothing. Well, low, I should say. Not nothing. But it's like a stopped train. And then when your hormones start picking up again, it's not like a light switch where your hormones just turn back on and they start pumping out like they were before, and you have regular cycles. It's much more like a slow-moving train. The train has to start picking up speed, and it's like, oh yeah, this is what I'm supposed to do. And it's not just perfectly clear the first time. And so that's why hormone tracking can be really helpful for those who are maybe avoiding a pregnancy or hoping to achieve in the future? Are my hormones starting to pick up and are they starting to become coordinated? What's happening here?

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Yeah, beautiful. And yes, that was actually one of my thoughts is that you know, sometimes we don't realize in our postpartum timeframe because you know, a person is lactating and nursing, uh, that she could still fall pregnant. And so at what point in that postpartum time frame might she wisely be considered beginning to track hormones to see is she ovulating? Does it look like there might be an ovulation this month so that she can make her choice?

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah. So surprisingly, a lot of people don't realize that ovulation, even while being postpartum breastfeeding, can be as early as eight weeks. Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Up to about two years, we consider normal. So if you're really trying to avoid a pregnancy, it would be important to start testing right away. If you're someone who you want to loosely know what your hormones are doing, then you might have a little bit more time. If you're someone trying to achieve, then maybe you're anxious to see when those hormones again are coming back. But really, again, a hormone return and having periods again really is anywhere from eight weeks to about two years that we consider physiologically normal if you are breastfeeding and lactating because of that high prolactin. So again, I know that might be shocking for some listeners, but I always like to warn people, I'm like, there's myths out there. You're gonna hear, oh, you're breastfeeding, you can't get pregnant. Exactly. And the next person will say, Oh no, you're going to get pregnant. Yes. And there's, you know, the kind of fear both ways. Um, and so I always like to just clarify and say, Well, you can only get pregnant if you're ovulating. Correct. It's not just about the period, right? Because you can ovulate before you have your first period.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

So depending on the while your one would typically ovulate before having your first period. So you could be ovulating without realizing it. So yeah. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

And of course, you could conceive on that first ovulation and then never get a period and instead get a positive pregnancy test.

SPEAKER_02 5:14

I have had that occur for patients, and um and you know, they they have been thankfully happy about it, and yet, you know, I know that that's not necessarily right for every family to go right into child number two. And it's also hard on a body for that's just my two cents, is to is to really think about planning number two. It can be soon after number one, but if you can really take that time, knowing your cycle, to like really recover from that first delivery. Again, especially if you're if you're considered if you're still going to be breastfeeding, you've got this, you know, this second strain on your body, this second, you know, um uh uh uh withdrawal, if you will, cash withdrawal from the bank from the ATM from the body's ATM.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Yes. Oh, I said I I love babies, but I say they are the cutest, healthiest parasite you're ever gonna have that just depletes you.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Yes, exactly, exactly. So, so so a mama's nursing and and she's releasing that prolactin hormone so that she's lactating. How does that interfere with or or affect the hormones that one would see in the mirror tracking device? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

So prolactin is, you know, naturally built in the system to give our bodies a break so that we don't just start ovulating and conceive again. And so it's meant to suppress ovulation, suppress the hormones. And so what we typically see in the postpartum amenorrhea patient or someone who's parspartum breastfeeding, not having cycles, not having ovulatory events, no periods, the hormones are low and generally fluctuating, but not coordinated. So in the beginning, they may just all be, I don't want to say flatlining, but not dynamic, meaning that they're not having ups and down patterns like an ovulatory patient would. But then eventually I call it the teeter-totter or the tug-of-war, where the prolactin is high, but the body's like, I want to ovulate, and it tries, and then the body's like, no, you're breastfeeding, and it tips back, and then you tip again, and this teeter-totter back and forth. And I say, eventually the body's gonna win because the body's always wanting to ovulate. That's its optimal state, is ovulatory patterns, and so it kind of finally overcomes, or you know, if you think about a train going up the hill, it gets over the top of the hill and it's like, okay, we're doing this, and then you start ovulating again. But because you've been on this journey, the hormones are not always perfectly primed and ready to go. And so if you are someone, let's say, actively trying to conceive, your first ovulation back may not be even coordinating healthy enough to even conceive on if you wanted to. So, of course, some patients do and want to, and some accidentally do conceive on their first ovulation.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

Um, but the hormones are we see more times than not, they're not perfect. And that makes sense because again, prolactin is still working. You just kind of tip the scale enough that it's like, okay, we're gonna do this.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yeah, one one little one got out of the gate to to kind of prime the pump, if you will. So again, to like re-return the system. Okay, so is when when would I mean given that it could happen of as we have discussed, that you could ovulate without menstruating, uh when when would someone then be begin to track? I mean, ideally, because I know that that is that is uncommon, right, to have someone you know ovulate before a menstruation. It it can happen, it does happen, but it's not the most common practice of our bodies.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Yeah, I would say as someone returning to cycling, I would say it's actually the majority of people will ovulate first, but most will not ovulate normally, optimally on their way back. Right. So sometimes we actually look at the data, you know, someone will be tracking and they'll say, Yeah, I see some estrogen changes. Maybe that was my LH surge. So they think I ovulated, but the progesterone is just really not coming through. They're like, Did I ovulate? But then the period comes and we're like, that was it. That was your attempt, and now we know the the pump is primed, it's going to do it again. Um, so so this the signs are not always as perfect. Um, but to to go to your question of like when do we start tracking? Well, you can start tracking as soon as you want, but I would say if someone's in their head, like, how do I know? Well, it's never harmful to test, right? Just information gathering. But if you're someone maybe on a budget or you're like, I'm not ready to test again. Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

I'm otherwise busy. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Yes, I have a very small baby who depends on me. Um, then really consider do you meet lactation amenorrhea criteria? So there is an evidence-based protocol called LAM LAM Lactatial Amenorrhea. The criteria is very strict, I will forewarn you. Um, but that protocol, if you meet the criteria, then you have less than a 2% chance of pregnancy without testing. Uh, because you meet the criteria.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

So just to give people an idea, this means you don't mind because people are going to be then googling what is lamb.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Googling what is lamb. So it's a um protocol based on the fact that you are exclusively breastfeeding, um, which does mean exclusive. So the baby's not getting calories from somewhere else, so no formula feeding. It's also, again, very strict. It doesn't mean that you have to meet this criteria, but if you want to say I'm I'm infertile because of it, it's pretty strict. So yeah, um, unfortunately, you can't be pumping and feeding, or you can't be half pumping, half direct feeding. You have to be exclusively baby at the breast to meet that criteria. And the baby has to eat often, every six hours at night, at least every four hours during the day. And the the baby has to be less than six months old. And you cannot have had a bleeding or a period. Okay, so it's and again, I'm not teaching you lamb right now. So if you're listening, please go research it.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Look at the eye to talk with your dying about.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's where some of the myths come from. People be like, Well, I I was breastfeeding, I thought I wouldn't get pregnant. Isn't there a method for this? There is, but again, it's very strict. And I always with my own clients, I joke, I'm like, everyone gets kicked out of this protocol at some point. Some people are just earlier than others. Yeah. Some people get kicked out after a week, you know. Maybe you have you and your spouse go on a date night and you leave baby with someone else. Well, you might have just gotten kicked out if you fell out of the criteria. Other people fall out because their baby turned six months old, or they have a great sleeper and the baby sleeps more than six hours at night. So then you know, as soon as that baby sleeps six hours and one minute, you haven't nursed often enough to be in the criteria.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

So very interesting. I mean, isn't it just so brilliant how how smart the body is. Dial it in so discreetly and concisely that you know, just one deviation and and and beware, because beware either way, you know, be beware, beware that you may get pregnant and hooray, you may get pregnant if that's your if that's your choice.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Oh, exactly. It's information. So I always want people to know that um breastfeeding in and of itself is not actually what prevents you from getting pregnant. It's actually if you are ovulating or not. And some women breastfeed night and day and they still ovulate very quickly after having a baby. And other people, they may only be nursing once or twice a day and it still holds their cycles back and they're not ovulating. And so it really depends on the person. Um, and I like to say how sensitive they are to prolactin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

That I I I wouldn't just take a moment to sort of repeat, I think that bears repeating, right? That that the the potential for getting pregnant is not a function of prolactin levels or whether you're breastfeeding or not. It is a function of did you ovulate? And that's again where the hormone tracking comes in. So, what would it look like? You know, so someone hasn't had a period, like how does she know where to begin in the tracking?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah, you can actually just begin tomorrow. You get your supplies in the mail, you start testing tomorrow, you find out what's happening. One day does not tell you anything, it's a trend. Do you see hormones that are being suppressed likely from prolactin, or do you see estrogen fluctuating up and down? Again, that kind of tells me that the teeter-totter is happening. The ovaries, the ovaries are trying to get in the in the ring.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

And then when you see coordinated estrogen with an LH surge, now you know that there's enough coordination between the ovary and the brain that it's saying, hey, do this. And then you have to see if the ovary responds. And that's where it gets a little interesting, where this uh probably how we came up last time during the PCOS conversation, because there can be these attempts to ovulate that fail. And they're pretty rare outside of hormone imbalances like PCOS and being postpartum breastfeeding. They're more common to happen in these two time frames where the body's like trying, but then for whatever reason it doesn't actually succeed. So just having, let's say, positive LH test strips does not tell us that you're ovulating. That just means that the brain triggered to ovulate.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

But you got to see if it actually happened or not, which tells you when the progesterone rises, that's your solid confirmation. Um, or if you don't have conclusive progesterone, which can happen sometimes when again the body's just not really ready to make good progesterone, then it may be the period that comes quite quickly afterwards, which can again shock people. They're like, but I just tried to ovulate. Why four days later am I getting a period? Is this even possible? Yes, yes, it is.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Yeah, exactly. It's almost like it's uh cleaning house, if you will, getting ready for the next cycle. And and really, I mean, that is it is important data because it means get ready. It's quite likely your next cycle will be a an expected cycle with with you know a rise. You're back. Exactly. Exactly. You're back. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah, and and I will say it's not always first ovulation is normal as well. We actually, when I teach clients, I warn them your first typically one to four ovulations are not optimal, and that's fine. So with that information, you can decide. Some couples will decide, well, we're not gonna actively can try to conceive until we see that the hormones are now optimized again, and other people use that information to time intercourses, still try to conceive. So you have the information, you decide what to do with it. Um, but I always like to warn people cycle one, what we consider like you've ovulated, you had your first period, now you're in cycle one, that first time frame. I officially call that cycle wonky, you know, super scientific. Cycle zero. So, so that first real cycle that you have, if you used to have beautiful, let's say 30-day cycles, 35-day cycles where you could predict when you'd ovulate, predict when your next period comes, don't be alarmed if it takes longer for your body to ovulate that cycle because it still has to overcome prolactin again. So the follicular phase, the buildup to ovulation, does tend to take longer.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

That was my next question. So so in postpartum, also don't be alarmed. If you had that perfect diagram of the 28-day cycle with the 14-day peak, um, then then it it is not an it is not abnormal or aberrant when you're in postpartum to have a longer follicular phase. That's what you're saying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

And even then a short luteal phase, which we know is something we track very closely when we're trying to conceive. And so I kind of tell, but that's why I mean wonky. I'm like, one's too long, one's too short. Like, what's going on? This mismatch. Um, but these are all physiologically normal processes because again, your body's returning back to optimal. And again, for most people, it's not the light switch. No, have I seen someone who moves right back into regular cycles? Yes, but I'll say they typically tend to be the person that they're further out. They are more um uh closer to you know a year mark or past a year. I see. And they they tend to return to a normal pattern faster than the person who's getting their cycle back at three months.

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah, yeah. Well, and and that kind of makes sense, right? Because I I I just am imagining physiologically, you know, the the the orchestra is being tuned in that year, right? And it's and it's easier for it to be finely tuned, well tuned, if you're a year out, as opposed to three months out.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah, and if you think about you've now had time to recover physically, mentally, emotionally, you've also had time to rebuild your nutrient stores, you're likely getting better sleep now. And so it just makes sense that the body has kind of a smaller hill to overcome to get back to ovulating normally.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Yeah, wonderful. It anything that I'm not asking about, because I knew that this is a this is a uh you know a subject, as you say, near and dear to your heart. Yeah. And and it and for the most part, while I've had a couple in the 25 years, you know, of women who who have gotten pregnant very soon after giving birth, um, and thankfully they were happy about it, most don't want to, and for the right reasons. So so is it so is there anything, um, any other uh words of wisdom that you would want to share about either the the concerns or the or the well shall I say not concerns or sorry, the the the the uh uh up-leveled awareness someone might want to have if if if the desire is to have a child sooner. Or um, yeah, I'll I'll I'll leave it at that. Please connect with us for a fertility assessment call at the link below. We'd love to learn a bit about you and share our resources. And make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel so that you never miss an episode.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

I have a couple of things on both sides of the equation. So, the one, if you are someone who were breastfeeding but now you stopped, please be aware that you will almost like most likely ovulate before that period comes. And so if you're in a state where you're trying to avoid or trying to conceive, be prepared for the ovulation first, not the period. So that's a tip for you. If you just weaned or you are actively weaning, just think the less you're breastfeeding, the less hill you're making. So your body's gonna go over that hill a lot easier, the less you're breastfeeding.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Yeah, yeah. And then can I interrupt for just one second to say, you know, weaning does not mean you have stopped entirely. If you're if you're lowering your prolactin, you are opening that door a little wider for the other FSH to come on in and say, okay, let's let's go.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

Okay, I interrupt. So please continue.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Yeah, sometimes people ask me, well, they they don't like this feeling of the unknown, of what's happening. And I'm like, well, when you're watching the hormones, you actually see what's happening on the underlying layer, right? What's happening in your body with your hormones? And there are some other helpful things to track, like, is your baby sleeping better now? Are they going longer periods between nursing? Um, there are some things that I like to say, they're not causation, but they can be associations to when your cycle comes back. So when did your cycle come back last time? Is your baby nursing differently this baby than the last baby? Of course, when it's your first baby, you don't have that piece of information. Um, but also is there something that disrupted your nursing pattern? So I I like to give the example of, you know, maybe the whole family gets a stomach flu and you are down and out. And if you just imagine you're probably not snuggling up with your baby as much as you usually do while you're in the stomach flu situation, and your nursing's probably disrupted, you're dehydrated. That event sometimes actually prompts you back into cycling when you recover because of that shift in the pattern. And so sometimes I always have people like write down, you know, keeping track of things is helpful to look at in hindsight. You're like, oh yeah, I just got my first ovulation and period. I look back. Well, in the last four weeks, this, this, and this happened.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Those can be helpful, you know, pointing you in the right direction so that you're not just like caught off guard.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

So once again, then the beauty of tracking, you know, sooner than later gives you uh data to reflect upon, you know, in hindsight. Oh, that's right. This makes sense because these events happened. Yes. And and and so therefore you can kind. Predict, you know, that you know the next event will happen, like it like ovulation.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah. So I've seen people, you know, they reach out to me and they have um higher estrogen than they used to have. I'm like, well, did anything change recently? And then they go back in their notes and they're like, oh yes, the baby started eating a lot more salads. And you might think, well, I'll remember this. Well, I hate to say it, but you will forget a lot of details. Like, when was it that the baby slept three nights in a row? You're not gonna remember anymore. Um, and sometimes it really is that break at night when your body does not have stimulation to make more prolactin at night. Your body's like, oh, I always like to joke, your body's like, oh, you must be ready for another one. You just have a break. You're on a break.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

No matter that you're just sleeping.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

It's yep, yep. And I always like to say, you know, sometimes we're like, why does the body interpret it that way? But that's how physiologically it's set up. And so that kind of leads me into if you're the person who's like, when will my cycle come back? I just want it to come back, either to conceive or for predictability, um, but I still want to keep breastfeeding. There are actually things that you can do to kind of help your body overcome prolactin. Now, I would definitely consult with like a lactation consultant to make sure you do this well. But some people will intentionally disrupt their nursing pattern just enough so that their body can start ovulating again and then they resume their normal nursing pattern. So for some people, you know, that's what that look like. Yeah, that could be for one week you um your pump you have stored milk, for example, and someone else feeds the baby during the night. So you sleep solid and you're not having the stimulation of prolactin during the night. And sometimes, you know, for some people a few days, other people a week of intentional um lowering other prolactin like that can help. But again, if you're someone who um barely makes enough breast milk and you're struggling in that area, please work with a lactation consultant to make sure this would work for you because you don't want to end up behind the eight ball and and be struggling with demand um afterwards.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Um but sometimes really just jump starting, getting you to ovulate again, then you can resume breastfeeding and the body's like, I'm already doing it, I'm just gonna keep doing it, even though the the demand of nursing is back.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Right. And and and warning or or awareness, heightened awareness, this means that you are able to get pregnant again while nursing. While you know, yes, prolactin is being released. Yes, you're nursing and you're ovulating. All systems are go.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yes. But I I need to make sure I mentioned that some women do suffer from lower estrogen while they're breastfeeding. And so if you've been trying to conceive, but you're breastfeeding, it could be from breastfeeding, right? You are having to overcome prolactin still. And so um, some women actually find that they they struggle to conceive, even though they're ovulating because the hormones are still not um not optimal. So all those are things that you as the user have to decide what's the most value to me. If um you're like, I need to conceive, I want to conceive, then you have to weigh out am I going to wean in order to get my hormones to return to full capacity? You know, those are decisions that no one else can make but you. Um, but have the right people in your corner, the right, you know, um, whether that be a lactation consultant, your um other colleagues and and people that um work around you to help you reach those goals.

SPEAKER_02 25:34

So and now we didn't talk about in this in this uh episode yet. What is MIRA testing and why does it matter?

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, so MIRA tests your four main reproductive hormones, FSH, LH, estrogen, and progesterone. And we specifically measure the breakdown of the main form of estrogen in the circulating bloodstream, it's estradiol. We measure the breakdown of estradiol in the form of E3G, and we measure the breakdown of progesterone in the serum form when it breaks down in the form of PDG. So when you're not ovulating, your progesterone will be low because there's no ovulation to make a corpus luteum. Um the estrogen can fluctuate, LH can fluctuate, and FSH, when it starts doing its job again, can start being in the picture again. But again, right away you might just be kind of low on most of them.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

And then if one is low on most of them and wants to get pregnant, the the message is to interrupt your breastfeeding so that you can lower your prolactin and then see how that shows up differently on your charts.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah, if that is your goal, then you're gonna have to do something to remove the suppression, which is typically, you know, what what is the suppression? Breastfeeding creating prolactin, so you'll have to disrupt that pattern in some way. Um, you know, other people, there's lots of strategies here. So I don't want to say the only ways to do that. Some people will do kind of um medication to trick the body. So we think about um some people will do a course of progesterone to kind of put your body into a luteal phase. And then when you stop it, in theory, you'll get a breakthrough bleed or withdrawal bleed, and then your body might be like, oh, wait, I do something next. Sometimes that can work. Other people will go more aggressive with other meds. Um, but again, you would need to work with a really good provider to make sure that you're in good hands. Uh, this is not like a do-it-yourself at home kind of scenario. The one you can do at home would be your breastfeeding pattern.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Yeah, yeah. That's not that's that's great advice. Anything else that I haven't asked about, I that that we want to make sure that the viewers and listeners you know know about? And I'm this might be this might this might not be appropriate, so but forgive me in advance. You know, I'm always the one to apologize after. But is there in in the data, is there a sign or a time where you say, oh, you know, when somebody waits six months and then and then you know we we see the change in the tracking, that's the sort of the optimal time to begin because we know those those eggs have been you know really growing at the right rate and producing estrogen and so on and so forth. Because we what we don't want to do is say, go for it because you're ovulating and then create stress and heartache because that, you know, while ovulation has occurred, as you said, estrogen may not be produced to such a degree as to create a successful and healthy pregnancy.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Yeah, so it's not really a time frame, it's really what are the hormones showing. So someone who has um prolactin may experience low estrogen leading to ovulation. So instead of that beautiful mountain that we see, and then the LH surge comes in, theirs may be pretty flat, and then they still get the LH surge, and then progesterone is kind of weak. And even it can be fascinating, the person gets better estrogen after they ovulate than before. Those are signs to me that we have not optimized the hormones yet. And so that could put you at risk for more difficulty conceiving and or even miscarriage risk because the hormones are not primed. And so that may mean that you're not maturing your follicle well, and that follicle that's not quite perfect is then not making a good corpus luteum. You know, they're not can be very connected.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Right, exactly. So that's when you'll see, you'll see perhaps like chemical, like a chemical pregnancy. Something tried to happen, but there wasn't enough lining and there wasn't enough progesterone to hold the lining. So I'm I'm really grateful that we're having this part of the conversation as well, because sometimes you know, um, when we don't know, we can just be very uh, you know, enthusiastic about saying, oh, I'm seeing, you know, I'm seeing the the LH surge. That must mean it's go time. So I'm gonna repeat again so that the viewers and listeners can really hear this. If you're not seeing a uh the data with with with mirror that that you're actually getting that rise in progesterone, then the lutinizing hormone surge, then the progesterone spike, that you may want to hold off. You may want to just you know give your body that month to, oh, of course it's a little difficult because the progesterone spike would would have been later in the game, but but but if you're not seeing the estrogen rising beautifully in that beautiful curve, um you may want to hold off and just say, okay, let's let's let this body have another cycle to regulate. To normally itself, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

And and I'll clarify again because I do the same thing. You accidentally said progesterone twice instead of estrogen, then progesterone. So I'll summarize it one more time. So we want to see, um, I've heard some providers call it like the tripling of estrogen, meaning that you are at a lower state, and then you want to see it to get much higher mountain of estrogen than the LH surge, and those should be related to each other, like that's how the body's supposed to function. And then we know if it works, your progesterone goes up. And so if you're missing that estrogen change, then you might be thinking to myself, I might not be in an optimal state to conceive right now. And so again, you take that information, you decide what you want to do with it, but now you know these hormones are not perfect yet. And and by perfect, I mean they're in the right reference range, they're coordinated with each other, not a specific number. There is no there is no perfect hormone number. It's much more of a range. I like to say, like the Goldilocks and the three bears. You don't want them too low, you don't want them too high, you want them right in the middle to work just right for you.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Excellent, excellent. I I learned a lot myself about the the benefit, the importance of using the hormone tracker to to you know measure, observe the estrogen uh curve to make sure that it really is providing that mountain image um uh and and that the you know that uh an LH surge, which you just get on those the other strips, is not necessarily an indicator for um that this month is go time. So anything else that we missed in the conversation?

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Yeah, I'll just give one last encouraging piece of information that um again, most people will say when you're postpartum, you just kind of you float around until something happens. And I really want to challenge that perspective that instead you really can be very informed, you can see your information. And I've had the privilege of actually finding hormone abnormalities that then got um uh a workup and a diagnosis while they were postpartum breastfeeding, which we think the two women I have in my um in my mind, they both got diagnosed with PCOS. And I'm I know you might be thinking to yourself, well, they had a baby, they must have been ovulating. Well, yes, you can develop a metabolic syndrome like PCOS at any point in your reproductive time frame. And sometimes you were doing just okay enough that everything was fine, but being postpartum, all of a sudden you suppress things and then you are out of sync, and then you end up in more dysfunction. And so, how Mira helped me with both of these patients is when we looked at the data, we were like, this just doesn't make sense. So, for the one, she was having LH surges every few days that really physiologically doesn't make sense. And so when she went and got her workup done, they found that she had undiagnosed PCOS with low vitamin D levels, high insulin levels, you know, problems that because she was postpartum breastfeeding in conventional medicine, they likely would have not done anything yet. They would have waited, said, When you're done breastfeeding and you get your periods back, let me know, then I'll do some blood work. Because this patient had data, she could say, I'm concerned because, and she lists out the things that we had found. They did the blood work, did the ultrasound, found she had P2S. She got treatment well before her period ever came back. Beautiful. So it really is again, this is health promotion for you.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Exactly. It it extends beyond baby the next baby. I was gonna say baby number two, but it might be beyond. Yes, because because you know, hormonal disruption, or I don't know if that's the right word, hormonal changes occur through pregnancy and through postpartum. And of course, I'm envisioning the mama who's you know kind of eating, eating quick carb try while while nursing, trying to provide that carb. Trying to survive. Exactly. And doesn't know she has low vitamin D. And so it's a it's a true setup for PCOS. So that's that's actually very cool. So, listeners, viewers, there are so many reasons why there's benefit to knowing your hormonal activity postpartum. Does it have to happen in those first eight weeks? Not necessarily. If you're curious, it can. Um, but but certainly if you either want to uh set yourself up for a healthy next pregnancy sooner than later, let's go. Let's do the let's use the mirror hormone tracker. If you want to avoid a pregnancy too soon and you want to, you know, have your family uh spaced for a longer period of time, also a real reason to use the mirror tracker and know your hormones.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

So yeah, and just a quick note on that, because I want people to know Mira in and of itself cannot, it's not FDA approved to avoid a pregnancy. So you would need to work with an instructor who's trained to do this, which there are plenty. You'll look up um Marquette method, which is an NFP method that's approved. We're using Mira as a tool, because what they'll do is they'll teach you what's gonna happen. What are your hormones gonna do? How do we know that they're suppressed? How can you know that you're currently in an infertile state? Um, the worst thing I I would not want to have happen is you think, oh, I'll just purchase Mira, I'll use it, I'll know I'm infertile, and then unintendedly get pregnant. Yeah, I don't want that to happen. So work with someone who understands the data. Currently, the only ones that I know that are kind of certified to use Mira to avoid a pregnancy is um it's called again Marquette method NSP instructors. And you can just Google that and you'll find it.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

I'll put it in the show notes so they can easily find it. Yes, thank you for that. Yes, I really appreciate you highlighting that. That you know, Mira is Mira is data, it is not a diagnosis or a treatment plan. So what it was so um, yeah, take that data to someone who is able to help you. But and it's wonderful to know the data yourself. I mean, I think that's the beauty of Mira, is that it gives this person agency to say, oh, I'm getting I'm big, I'm understanding this now. I'm understanding my body and my hormonal activity in a way that would uh otherwise be impossible because we can't get blood draw every, you know, every day. No one wants that. Exactly, exactly. So, yes, thank you for saying that. It is it is a it is a source of data that then can be used with the right professional. So thank you. Thanks, Rose, for taking the time, giving us this education. Is there anything that the folks should know about? Like how do they get of course I'll put the how do they get mirror links because I'm uh I'm an affiliate with it, but but is there a way in which, for instance, they can you know access course material or or you know educational material on the Mira site?

SPEAKER_01 37:16

As a user, you'll purchase Mira, you'll get your little QR code to get set up in the app, and then the app will actually prompt you with tips in it. And so if it says you have an LH surge, you can click on the what does that mean? And you can learn things. But again, Mira is a great direct-to-consumer product, meaning we want you to have the data. You can use that data to achieve a pregnancy by timing intercourse correctly. But when it comes to actual treatment, that's where providers come in. If it's to avoid a pregnancy, that's where providers come in. You will learn a lot. But the key to ultimate success, I do say, is working with a provider who understands the value of Mira.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you so much for spit spending this time with us, giving us, uh, getting us a little bit smarter and and and helping to either uh avoid a pregnancy too soon postpartum or to or to enjoy a pregnancy sooner than later postpartum. So again, viewers, listeners, we know you could be anywhere listening today. Thank you for spending the time with us. Please like and share so that this can in important information can get around because it's not a conversation many people have. We tend to silo, okay, infertility or fertility, pregnancy, postpartum, and then we just kind of like ignore what's next. So let let's all let's all be smarter and take better better care of ourselves and and each other. So please do share. So thank you so very much, Rose. I have a funny feeling we'll be back talking about something else and like the perimenopausal time frame. I think that's going to be our next because it's there is a pre perimenopausal time frame, right? Where people can start, it's they're not quite there yet, but they can they can see it coming, they can hear those hoof beats. So that'll be our next conversation. So until then, I really thank you for your time. Viewers, listeners, thank you for your time as well. Take good care.