The Many Paths to Your Family with Leslie Lopez

She spent six years trying to become a mother. Male factor infertility caught too late, a stillbirth, egg freezing, a divorce and then gestational surrogacy in the middle of COVID with a therapist who was not trained in Assisted Reproductive Technology (ART). 

What Leslie Lopez found on the other side was her daughter - and her calling.

Leslie is an independent mother and host of the Mothers in Arms podcast, whose mission is to address the emotional side of the reproductive journey. Today she joins Dr. Susan Fox to talk about what the fertility world gets right and what it gets wrong. 

Learn why male factor infertility is still being caught too late (at home tests can fall short) and what "test, don't guess" really means when morphology and DNA fragmentation are the issue. 

The words “childless” and “child-free” are not the same.  Hear from Leslie why that difference matters. 

Understand the importance of having a therapist trained in ART. 

Discover the importance of sharing with your donor-conceived children the right information at the right time.

This episode is for you if:

• you're navigating infertility and feeling alone
• you're considering surrogacy or donor conception and don't know where to start
• you've been through ART and felt like the emotional side was an afterthought
• you're an “independent” parent or thinking about becoming one
• you're wondering when and how much to tell your donor-conceived child their story
• you're in the fourth trimester and seeking mental health support

Support your fertility journey with Preconception Plan at Health Youniversity. Learn more here: https://healthyouniversity.co/programs  

Mother in Arms Podcast : https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mothers-in-arms/id1768849257

Donor Conceived Community: https://www.donorconceivedcommunity.org/ 

US Donor Conceived Council: https://www.usdcc.org/ 

IVF and Surrogacy Calculator (Tsong Law): https://www.tsonglaw.com/ivf-calculator

Gift of Surrogacy Foundation: https://www.giftofsurrogacyfoundation.org/ 

Carrot Fertility: https://www.get-carrot.com/ 

Embrya Health: https://embrahealth.com/ 

Resolve Support Groups: https://resolve.org/get-help/support-groups/ 

💻 About Susan Fox: https://www.healthyouniversity.co/about

Take your 5-Element Fertility Quiz:  http://yourfertilityquiz.com/

Detox to De-Stress:  View the FREE Masterclass on the importance of detoxification to prepare for a healthy pregnancy:  https://susanfox1.easywebinar.live/gentle-detox

Learn about our program entitled Your Fertile Health: https://www.healthyouniversity.co/programs

Schedule a Fertile Health Assessment: https://www.healthyouniversity.co/your-fertile-health-call

Let us journey with you as you navigate your fertile health. Connect with me:

🎧 iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/health-youniversity-with-dr-susan-fox/id1592763186 

🔊 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/08U9QJf...

📸 Instagram: @dr.susan.fox

💗 Facebook: ...

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Thank you. Welcome back to Health University, where we talk all things fertility, pregnancy, and postpartum, and the pre-perimenopause time frame. And I'm so so so so so excited to have Leslie Lopez with us who's going to share her personal story and and and really help create the environment for advocacy around getting this the support you need, getting the resources that you need, creating the community that you need so that you are growing your family exactly as you desire. So welcome, Leslie. Thank you so much for being on the show today. And I can't wait to really roll up our sleeves, open up our hearts, and dive into this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I love diving into conversations like this with people who are so passionate about it the way I am. How could we not be when it affects our life and when we've walked through roads that we stumbled on, why not help somebody else with guess what? There's other ways, there are resources for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Yes, I couldn't agree more. I think that those of us who understand for however however our understanding has come to pass, we do have an onus to sort of look behind, reach back, help out, help up. We do not need to be recreating the wheel. We do not need to be sort of at arms locked as opposed to arms linked with each other, trying to get the help that we need because we know one in six people are struggling with fertility. That's a whole lot of people who really need help before they even know they need help. And we want to be able to provide that before it becomes a bit of a roller coaster or a rabbit hole that we know people many people have been on.

SPEAKER_01 1:49

So that's right. That's right. Um, June is men's health month. Is that right? And and health isn't just about physical, right? It's the physical and the mental. And for me, I had a very unique story on how I became a parent, but my ex-husband did suffer from male factor infertility, and we didn't know. Back then, you know, they were checking male sperm. Now it's certainly more of a protocol. Um, but this is all about 15 years ago when I started all of this, and we didn't. It was a little too late. By the time they checked my ex-husband's sperm, my eggs were gone, right? I was limited the amount of embryos that I had. And I can honestly say that when you're married and one person isn't is suffering from infertility, and and maybe the other person doesn't know, right? You don't know until everybody gets checked under the hood.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Exactly. Um test, don't guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

That's right. And now there's even so many more tests at home that you could do, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:55

You don't have to there are, and I'm I'll put a well, I'll put a little, a little caveat or red flag around that because there, there's while thank goodness there are more at-home tests, that it's a great first step. Um and because I've seen too many people rely on that home, that at-home test that is oftentimes fewer parameters, and they think they're fine and they think they've done their due diligence, but but they haven't tested the the thing, usually morphology and DNA fragmentation that is the problem for um for male factor in most cases. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Seek a professional for sure. Go to go go go to the doctors. Um but it in in that when we were physically checking, right, the sperm and all that, we were not going for mental health support, right? That end of it really, I can see, made us push our dream of a family down, right? Oh, it's not possible, put it away. There was no discussion about it. There was no like, hey, but you're older than me. Why, you know, or hey, you know, I really want this. Um, I understand it's gonna cause us to not be able to travel, not be able to do this or that, but you know what? It's what I what I wanted. I didn't speak up enough. And I really regret that at that time, you know, I lost some years.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm very sorry. And I and I think that can oftentimes be the dynamic. And I and I even want to venture to guess that it's not just an I want, it's because the the want is more than a want, right? It's not, it's not like you know, I I want a new sweater. Kind of want. Like there's there's such an existential, visceral pull that is like this, this really, I'm not, I have to, I have to un uh unearth every stone to make sure that I that that that my my dream of a family is is possible or or not. For some people, we know that it becomes a not so, but it, but at least if they know that they've done all that they can do, then then their life has not felt unfulfilled.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

That is so on the nail the way you describe that. And I I remember at the time feeling childless, right, without having the choice, made me armor up and protect myself and think like, well, this is uh, you know, this is the way I'm supposed to be. Like, don't um I felt prodded and pulled when people would ask me, Why aren't you a mother? How many kids do you have? You know, the social stigmas of I should be having multiple children at that point in my life, it really played with my psyche. Um and it's important to note, right? Being child-free is not the same as being childless.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Yes. No, boy, could you repeat that, please? Because that really bears repeating.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

It bears repeating. I mean, you and I did advocacy with resolve on this topic alone is not everybody has the choice. You can choose to be child-free, but you cannot choose to be childless. Yeah. And the way that we talk to individuals that are childless really needs to be more, we need to be more aware of it. We need to be more woke about it. You can't just ask people like, so do you just have the one? Or hey, is it just you two? The word just to me, it's almost like I know.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

It's it well, it's diminishing, right? You know, it's it's kind of like when you when you're going to the restaurant and it uh, you know, and and they oh just one, and you almost hear them say, Oh, poor you. When it's like, I just want dinner. And I can, and I'm the only one who's going to eat the dinner I order. But this is but but but being childless is a very different just because it it pierces what you just want more than anything in the world is to is to be able to have that child. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Even still, to your point, even still, I'll walk into a restaurant with my daughter, and the hostess will say, Oh, is it just you two? And one time my daughter said, Mommy, are we waiting for somebody? Like, even to a five-year-old, that statement didn't sit right. Like, why are we not enough?

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Like, right, right, right, right. Yes. And so, and so I really think that you are highlighting a very important part of our whole social construct is that we really need to be more thoughtful and considerate and take a beat and look each other in the eye when we're having these kind of questions or statements, and just not let sort of unthoughtful, I don't know, I want to just say word vomit, you know, spew out of our mouths, um, because it can be very, very hurtful. Are you opening to share more detail about your personal journey? Because um, I I I'm remembering as as as you as you shared, so and it and it was and I because I remember you shared with our um representatives um uh when you were trying to you know share the importance of advocacy that and uh that was very courageous of you. So please.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Yes, so I mean, when when we discovered that not only did I suffer from a dysfunctional cervix, is how my infertility was labeled, but that also my ex-husband suffered from infertility, not having any more viable sperm. Um years later, right, after years of not allowing myself to have that dream, um, we were able to get to a point where we considered donor, male donor sperm and what that looked like and what we were trying to find there, and um, how would we explain it to people and all like all of these questions sort of getting on top of actually doing it? But here we went forward and um it was really important for me at the time my ex-husband was Jewish, and so I needed to find a Jewish donor. And when you go into the database, right? Jewish ancestry, I had a very narrow window of options of what was there for me versus other nationalities on multiple websites at the time that I knew to look for. Today it's it's a whole different world. But um I found uh after after going through this experience of like online dating, you know, which felt it felt very weird swiping right and left with my, it just it was weird. But we were able to get to a place where we agreed on what the quality, the utmost qualities important to us were. And um kind of a long story short in a way, uh, when it takes it takes a while, right? You create the embryos, that takes a while, then you have to wait for a surrogate, that takes a while. Um, it played a toll on my marriage. You know, me being very excited and waiting for for the opportunity for a surrogate to come up. And my ex-husband, having already had a grown daughter, um, you know, father box checked, you know, not quite on the same rhythm as me. Yeah. Um, when it came time for it to be, here's your surrogate, signed the contract. We were not on the same page. And it was a difficult choice to make, but I I did choose it was kind of at that point, six years of holding down my I do want to become a parent, it was just the light was there, I needed to do it. And it was, it was very, very challenging. But um, you know, to just sort of step away from everything you loved and knew and built, but knowing that this is a part of my legacy was I spent six years trying to do this, right? There was something there, and um I I embarked on this journey. Um, I had an agency that had been around for a while. Um, however, halfway through my journey, my agency representative retired. And so I went from having someone by my side that was holding my hand that felt comfortable, and to someone I didn't know was younger than me, just got um a promotion at the agency, and I just it felt like I fell through the cracks. Um nobody really read to me the fine print of, by the way, I and maybe because people don't all experience it, you know, but choosing to have a child through the world of assisted reproductive technology does come with a lot of societal, as you said, word vomit. You know, uh I got things like, oh, that's not God's way. Um, why are you playing with God's nature? Um, you know, things like, oh, how are you gonna feed that child? You know, um, or even when I remember, I'll I'll never forget the weeks, the months after she arrived, and I'm, you know, pushing my daughter through COVID. Oh, that's right. It was COVID, first and second season.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Because why, why not add another layer of complete, never-before experienced drama and trauma?

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yeah, that isolation of COVID, right? And uh being like, you have to stay indoors, you can't touch anything, you gotta cover up, and then braving a walk in a stroller, right? With the child that I had like covered, you know, don't let COVID get in there. Um, and then it was like the people that had just seen me walking are suddenly seeing me with a child, right? And they're like, hmm, but you don't, you your body doesn't look like it just gave birth, or hmm, why is there nobody walking with you? Or, you know, just you can, I literally got asked by strangers. It's so weird how people feel they have the right to ask you questions and they don't even know you.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah, yeah. Oh gosh. Well, I I I hope that the the well, I can't say that I just hope because I can feel this is a case of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Um 100%.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, explaining it, you know, I I did have a mental health therapist at the time who was not trained in assisted reproductive technology. I know now that there are psychiatrists, there, that this is doctors, you you spend time learning on the specific nuances of what this whole world means and does of people that are donor-conceived, people that going through surrogacy, IVF, all of it, it's it's not quite the norm. And so I found myself talking to my therapist with sort of like updates and showing her like this is how it works, you know, and not really getting into the gosh, I feel alone, I feel judged, I feel scared, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

How did you address how did how did you care for yourself or and and or who uh came in and and and you know partnered up with you to care for you with you on what you were going through?

SPEAKER_01 14:33

You know what? I I ended up letting go of that therapist. Um I did not, I just I knew it wasn't working for me. And I I didn't have another therapist for a while. I really pushed through it. I wanted to really, uh, I was scared that if I talked to the agency therapist that my surrogate had, which was there for me, by the way, um, it was something that was there, but not having the knowledge, I thought if I talk to her, she's gonna think that I'm not strong enough for this. They're not gonna give me the baby. They're, I mean, it's silly, but that's literally what I thought.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Those are it's not silly because those are the real questions that a psyche asks, because the psyche is not being logical, the psyche is being emotional, and so that you were unable to feel comfortable enough to ask the air quotes silly questions that could have given you a little, you know, a deeper breath and another feeling of support, and that the you know, the bottom was not was not up, it fall gonna fall out from under you, and they were not going to refuse to give you your baby because you have these these questions or concerns, which every woman has. A person, I need to be, I need to be mindful of my pronouns. Every person has um, you know, w when when preparing to be a parent for the first time. I I I'm so sorry that you went through all of this alone, and clearly you have you have fortitude built from within, and maybe your your the the the your the past, the people who have come before you provided enough for you. Um because you know, here you are. And how old is your child?

SPEAKER_01 16:20

She's five. She's five now, you know. I'm in I'm about to turn 50, so this was all happening in my mid-40s. And to your point of perimenpause, right? That came to me, you know, having infertility and and having all of these body hormone uh things going on. Um, after she was right after she was born, I had a major hormonal imbalance and I had a period that would go on for like almost two months. And it was like, how do I get myself one during COVID to a doctor, you know, like and with a newborn? It was all, you know, who's no, there wasn't um, you know, we went you weren't uh vaccinated yet and all of this, right? And um, so yeah, that's it's true.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

And this is this is a a cohort of of people who it's and it's a common cohort, right? You know, women in their mid to late 40s who are you know one step in the one foot in the fertility side of the bridge and one foot in the pre-perimenopausal side of the bridge. And so we it we do really have to support both because it's literally a step. And that step could be, you know, a day, a week, a month, a year. I mean, that is a very um uh fluid time frame. So, and and frankly, you know, that you bled for two months kind of gives me a little bit of a cringe because that that is you are potentially like bleeding as opposed to menstruating and have you know that's right.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

It was that's right. They put uh it's a hormonal IUD inside. And um it's funny and that point right there lets me know. Recently, you know, I know some women don't realize that the OBG, the OBGYN you have when you're young, when you're trying to become pregnant, that's not the same OBGYN you go to in your 40s, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:15

You know, exactly. Please connect with us for a fertility assessment call at the link below. We'd love to learn a bit about you and share our resources. And make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel so that you never miss an episode. There are there are there's a reason for the specialty along every step of this hormonal path. And so, yes, those who are helping you uh with contraception or are different perhaps from those who are helping you with delivering your babies, uh different from those who are helping you with this most critical time frame, in my opinion, the pre-perimenopausal and menopausal time frame. And I use that pre-intentionally because you know, before a woman is actually technically in perimenopause, there are often just signs and symptoms that are showing up, like this incessant bleeding, like for someone else, you know, chronic insomnia, like for someone else, um joint pain or headaches or you know, uh irritability out of the blue kind of thing. And we can sort of that's right.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yeah, I felt all those things. We can be um get ahead of it, right? Um and not getting ahead of it when you have an infant in your hands, it's not a good combination, right? And and so this fourth trimester that I didn't know about, you know, and if if the agency talked to me about it, I didn't hear it. You know, there was no handout or checklist of going through it. But, you know, and at the finish line, this very tough finish line, you know, you sort of you can't hear much because you're still going through your own trauma of being at that point before and having that loss. And your your body and your heart are going through the, oh, this is I remember when, or am I gonna jinx myself, right? So I personally, I didn't nest, I didn't get the nursery ready, right? I didn't try on the carrier, I did not open up the car seat and see this is how the car seat fits in there, right? There's all these things that it's sort of you're afraid to.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah. Oh honey, I'm so sorry. I'm really sorry that you that you that you had to go through all of this alone. And and that's the point of this conversation, right? You did, and and because you did, you're committed to that others do not have to do that. Um, and I and I can't think of a single human being on the planet who would say, you know what, never mind, I'll choose to go the hard way. Um because the hard way is just a brutally hard way. So yeah, don't don't don't do that. So so let's talk about the advice you give to someone. So people who are listening now who are either trying to conceive naturally, going through IVF, considering, you know, uh donor egg or sperm, considering a gestational carrier. Um, what do you want to make sure that they, you know, maybe in steps A through D, um you want to make it keep it simple.

SPEAKER_01 21:24

Right, I mean, yeah, keep it simple, right? But um, I mean, what I think first it starts with education, right? Just knowing your ovarian reserve and what that really means in terms of age, you know. Um, it is it is good to capture those eggs when they're fresh and young, right? Yeah, and and what does that mean, right? 35 after 35, it is, it does mean you're a little, it's a little harder, right? Um, but it doesn't mean that there aren't resources, right? It doesn't mean that you can't do it. There are so many ways to create a Family. Families come from so many different paths. You don't have to be, you know, one percenter to have a surrogate, have a surrogate journey. You know, you could take out a loan, you could get grants. There are so many organizations now that do provide this. You just have to know where to go and sign up for all of them, right? There's insurance that you need. And one big thing is legal. Um, some people do independent journeys and some people go through agencies. Either way, having a legal team that's looking out for your best interests, the intended parents, the donors, the gestational carriers, everybody needs to be represented because these types of journeys, they come with bumps and scrapes and burns. That's just part of it. There's no way it's going to be smooth sailing. Yeah. Right. And so hearing the word lawyer can even sound like it's like that sounds expensive.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Well, and and it can be, but again, there are ways to mitigate the costs and through grants or loans or other support structures. But it's a lot more expensive not to have done that due diligence because in the world of you don't know what you don't know, that's a very expensive void to fill. So I'm hearing you say first, not and again, not in any particular order, but but but first make sure you know your own health, that your your own ovarian reserve, and not just the reserve, the count or your FSH or your AMH, but how's your health? Because the quality of those eggs are going to be a mirror, a reflection of your health. What's your stress like? Are you covering your body with petrochemical because it's got all of the fragrances and the phthalates and the so forths? Um, are you are you eating organic because those toxins will accumulate all the way down to the level of your ovaries and we'll see those markers in your follicular fluid that are inflammatory that are injuring the eggs that are trying to grow. So there's much, I say this because there's much you can do. So get started now. And and again, if you're listening, and and if this conversation you know is either maybe not for you at this time, think about who it's for. Think about someone in their early 30s, um, late 20s, early 30s, who's who who's who maybe is just getting out of college, probably had a whole four or six years, maybe longer, of beer, pizza, late night partying, stressing, and all of that. Like that person's resilience is much more um attuned to getting healthy, you know, could to by by taking out the the bad guys and putting in some of the good guys. Um so so do those things. And then if you're down the road of um of you know surrogacy or gestational carrier, you know, get your get your legal support that is for you and your family. And when you think about it, if you're not don't think about doing this for yourself, you're doing this for your family, for the baby who is coming in, and and you know, wanting to ensure that he or she or they will be able to um not have to you know kind of be bouncing around 100%.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Um, to your point of inflammation and physical, but uh inflammation of the mental, right? Like I think that was really important. I I people would say, Oh, you want to go get pregnant, go on a vacation, stop worrying. And I what I think what they're trying to say, right, is your cortisone levels, right? Like that to me was would have been so much more like, oh, that's something I can do.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

Like exactly to be able to hear it and learn it, as you say, to the point of uh education. If you understand that someone telling you to go take a vacation is not um dismissive or blasé, but actually can be restorative and helpful and healing, then you'll be more willing to do it and you'll have the agency to do it because you understand.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

That's right. Um, I also recently came across um this sort of, it was it's called uh IVF and surrogacy calculator app created by uh Song Law Group. It's a legal firm that helps with adoption and surrogacy journeys. And I I thought it was incredible. It's something I could have used when I was going because it tracks two different timelines, right? The weeks post-transfer and the gestational weeks. They're not the same, and they both need to be looked at in IVF journeys and in surrogacy, right? And so, you know, my daughter came early. What did she come early or was she on schedule, right? I didn't know, I wasn't prepared. And it's very cool to be able to go in there and be like, oh, this is how it really is in real time. This is what she's looking like in the tummy over there. Not in my tummy, but over there she's a pea. Over there, she's a lemon, right? And I could have used being able to hold that. Maybe it was just on a phone.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Well, it helps with the bonding. I mean, because in so doing, then you're more inclined perhaps to say, okay, I'm gonna open that car seat because now she's a watermelon and I better get this car seat right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Like not being in COVID so out of mind, two hours away. Yes, there was space time, but not having that option to be more involved. Um, I could see how this app gives hope, gives it's something, right? It's something that I didn't have back then. Um, and I think that that's a little bit of uh what we intended parents. And as I'm a heterosexual intended parent, right? A lot of people hear like, oh, you did that independently. That what does that mean? You gave up on, you know, love. No, I didn't give up on love.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

I just knew that contrary, I would say. I mean, you you you gave yourself over to love.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

I like that. I like that. Um, but on the topic of love, right? My boyfriend who is co-parenting my daughter and I, now we're going into, we're navigating judicial parentage. And it brings up, well, how are we going to tell our daughter that one, she, you know, he's not her biological father, too. She's donor-conceived. When do you talk about this and how does it come up? And talking to psychiatrists in ART, listening to donor-conceived individuals, there's incredible resources, um, nonprofit organizations that focus on this. Um, I've heard some horror stories of donor-conceived individuals never being told, finding out on their own uh for health reasons or through social media.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah, and and they feel and they they they report feeling so um so lied to, you know. Um and then what does that do with trust for all of their relationships? If if the trust of their primary, excuse me, relationship of parents has been so terribly marred, how you know, how do you heal from that and then learn to trust again? So yeah, and I I would love to add um links for for some of these resources that you're you know mentioning, or links to your site that would have the um the resources as well, because I'm sure that people who are like, Well, well, what are these resources? And if we just start prattling them off, then for sure. Yeah, yes, so we'll make add the links. We'll make sure that they're in the show notes and that there are references so that you're not out there going, well, you know, she mentioned you know, resources. What are they?

SPEAKER_01 30:12

No, I give these resources to my boyfriend, you know, to the point of it's men's health month, right? Uh Mr. Fitness, I call him. Um, but yeah, it not it's not easy getting him to talk to our counselor. It's not easy, you know, to get him to open up the app and check in. But it is important. I don't want to rob him um of that feeling of, oh, that's not my dad, right? Like I don't want that for either of them, right? So it will take effort on his part to be open-minded to listening to this stuff, even though he's in his mid-40s and maybe that's not something that he did before. But we started the groundwork, we started it.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

Because because we've we've never done something before until we start to do it. And then so he's now in that in that sort of uh slice of the pie of I don't know what I don't know. So let's my response is let's let's open that door, let's start to find out. Yeah. So that so that you can start. We're languaging creatures, humans, so you can start forming the language around how you will communicate this with your daughter so that she is able to grasp it at whatever age range, you know, you begin to you know give her some information that so that it doesn't feel quite so disorienting. And of course, you're not going to unload the whole story, you know, um, you know, on day one. But the salient pieces that she can start to work with, because they'll only probably raise questions that your answers will help flesh out all she needs to know right now. And then at some point she'll you know kind of go, okay, that's good, skip away and let's go play now.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

So that happened the other day, you know, when I talk about my story of how I carried her via surrogacy, you know, sometimes this happens like at the park again when strangers don't really like they just ask questions. But I was sort of forced to talk about um, you know, that I didn't carry her. And here's my little five-year-old and another little five-year-old with their eyes looking at me like, what is that? Like, what do you what does that mean? So I was like, okay, here we go. My my smart cookie daughter. I just have to tell her. And so I was like, Well, Elise, um, mommy's tummy wasn't working the way it needed to, and so I needed to get somebody else to help me carry you. They this family helped bring you here.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

And it was done. And she's like, good, thanks, gotta go swing natty. Go, that was it. And so, and she understands that now about you know, some tummies work and some tummies don't. She has a choice to be a parent or not. She knows that right now.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

Beautiful, beautiful, that's amazing. That's amazing. And you know, I was thinking, as you mentioned, you know, people, people being people, sometimes not thinking before they ask questions that might not be appropriate. I think at possibly as we uh as as we take that breath and respond to them as though they were the the child, you know, it becomes yet another educational opportunity as opposed to an insult of, you know, almost like, what are you thinking? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:20

So it's a fine line. It's a fine line to not want to go like exactly, exactly. Um, and and and just be like, that's right. It happens a lot too. Like now in navigating new schools, you know, you see people that have more than one. And those of us that do have one child, you know, still get the questions of where are the rest of your kids or why? And and and so st it's a constant. Everybody needs to know just why I why do you need to ask that question? Like, how about asking where do you live or other other points that were here? Do you live close by the park? What are your favorite flavors? I mean, there's so many other questions.

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Exactly, exactly, exactly. And I think as as we can uh as we can respond with calm, humor, and and honesty. Like, you know, that's actually not a question I really feel comfortable responding to right now.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

How about if we go to a different question? Because I'd love to engage in conversation with you, just not that one. Um, I I think that, you know, the because we don't have to always automatically, and I think as women, I think it's important for us to remember, we don't have to always automatically respond to the questions that are asked of us. We can pretty much make the decision to say, that's not a question I'm really wanting to answer right now. Let the how about if we find a different conversation to have?

SPEAKER_01 34:42

That's right. And it doesn't make you rude, it really doesn't. I mean, you're not trying to like go like that to somebody else. Honestly, I think the tone you use is everything because I've missed the tone. I've definitely at the beginning was a little more.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

They were actually pushing on some very deep, deep pain points. So um, and and and now I imagine those pain points have have softened a little bit. They're not quite as sharp and heartbreaking. Uh, they're they're more aching, um, perhaps, so so the the response isn't quite as as uh jarring to your own psyche. That's right. To get back to the conversation about, because because you know, I I I feel as though I I somehow diverted the conversation in unintentionally away from mental health and support. I'm of the opinion that if anyone is struggling with anything at any time, and I should I should listen to hear myself speak because I could use it, you know, getting the support of someone. Ideally, it's a licensed therapist who's you know kind of trained and credentialed and can hear nuances and things that maybe you know your friends or your loved ones or your counselor or pastor or whatever can't hear. But even if it's not, if it's not a trained psychotherapist or psychiatrist, um, you know, finding someone to really just kind of say, you know, would would you be my sounding board for something? I've got something going on. I really think that COVID certainly um did a number on all of us, you know, in terms of finding uh ways to navigate isolation, but I think that it also revealed just how how uh devastating isolation is, you know, to our whole health. Yeah. So so talk to me more about what what are your recommendations for mental health, resilience, and support?

SPEAKER_01 36:45

I feel when I heard other people having walked in my shoes of infertility, the struggles that others are willing to share, right? The group community, I found a lot of solace in community. I found resolve, I found advocacy day, I found people that were willing to say, I'm struggling to have my family. I still don't have a quote unquote fairy tale ending. Um, I'm here, this is me. Like just all the variations that come out of an IVF journey, they don't all necessarily end in a pregnancy or in a family, but it it it creates resilient people. It creates this, we call ourselves, right? The worst club with the best members. And it's I think that that has always to this day, still, when I hear the stories of people that are trying to create a family and and and are having a hard time, whether it's military families or LGBTQ families, just all all walks of life, that has been a huge support for me.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Yeah, yeah. And I and I want to um go back and kind of highlight or explain Resolve, and I'll put that link as well. You know, Resolve is a United States national organization that is all about the emotional support, the community support, the advocacy, the gut, you know, sort of uh the the getting behind, you know, govern governing uh statues and laws and things like that, that were statutes and laws that allow for um you know uh family building for all. Um and it's that and that is how we met. Thank you for reminding me. And um it's such an important community, and it is it is you know, the it's accessible you know, free. So so I think I think there might be a membership fee, and perhaps perhaps in you know, sort of individual support groups may have memberships, but they but they may not as well. Um that's right.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

There are some that are con that are free, and there are some that do require a bit more, but um the one with advocacy day, this may be it was a little different. Um, but but having the opportunity to speak to a lawmaker and say, please, please sign this bill. Like it does this and this and that, you know, whether that law gets changed or not, knowing you can do it again and again, right? That's hope.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Yes, exactly. It's hope, and it is, well, I'm I'm a Chinese medicine doc, so like it is, it is qi infusing, it is energizing, um, you know, so it and then it wants to propel us into, you know, what else can I do? Who else can I help? Who else is, you know, sort of like me or needs me or something like that? And and really at the end of the day, that then becomes, you know, our legacy. And speaking of legacy, if if you were to say, you know, I've been through so much, and I will bear witness that you've been through so much, and you like really are uh some kind of amazing poster person for you know that that that the possibilities are there if you will, if you will want to continue to turn every stone to get there, and there's always the the opportunity to say, you know what, I'm done. And there is no failure in saying I'm done. You know, we each have our own walk, but legacy, destiny, what is it that you would hope that your your legacy would be for having gone all through all you've gone through?

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Gosh, uh besides my I mean it's easy to say my daughter is my legacy, right? But but no, like I just feel like I don't look like you know, I I don't have the background of somebody that could have, you know, if you told me this when I was 13 years old, I would have never really, what are you talking about? I'm Lathina, I come from five brothers and sisters. My mom is one of 11, my dad is one of 10. Latina people need to be fertile myrtles, right? Like this would never happen to me. And I feel like that also when I was talking to women in their 40s around me when I was doing it, it was a big, I it was a big wake-up call for my girlfriends that were around me and for myself of I need to be more aware of the words I use around people who don't have children. I think that's that's been the biggest thing because even though I have my child now, I was not able to have a second child. I was not able to grow my family. I waited too long, right? Um, and so that that with my boyfriend doesn't have biological children of his own. He's my daughter is his daughter. And so also that line of being, for lack of better words, woke, um, are just sensitive and um knowing that he's becoming, he's he's sacrificing his lineage, I you could say, to be a part of hers. And what does that mean? What is that relationship for people who who who are in those types of shoes who don't have the opportunity to have biological children, but do have the opportunity to parent in one way or another? I didn't know that you could do that. I didn't know that, you know, families don't have to come the traditional way.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Yeah. So and so that that that is your legacy. You are living the legacy of that families don't have to come the traditional way, and really that being a family, whether that whether there is one child or 13 children, um, it it's it is it is complete um exactly as it is. And you know, I'm I'm a I'm a single, I I I raised my daughter, I was divorced from her dad. So we, you know, she was it was just the two of us in in my my home. Um so I I understand a lot of what you're saying. Um we were we were uh unusual in the whole you know raising from kindergarten through through high school um uh uh picture, if you will, because it in in the suburbs of San Francisco Bay Area, you know, it was pretty typical to see, you know, you know, a few children, all you know, uh parents either together or not. But um, but yeah, I I I feel all of what you're saying, and I and I really feel uh so our our family was complete. Um you know, it's it and for and there were many years where I didn't feel that because I felt as though I should be giving her a sibling and so forth.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

But um yes, yeah, but I think and and I should put my my fine print with families don't all look the same. We we we get we take different paths to get there, but still I want to make sure that everybody is legally supported, right? Like, yes, we're gonna do this, but I want him to have the rights to her, right? I want her to have the right to choose. Everybody needs to be able to be protected, whether I stay, whether we stay in each other's lives as partners, we're committing to stay in her life as parents. And so, regardless of, you know, what happens with us legally, I just want to make sure she's set up. It takes a village to raise children, right? Uh, why not have that all set up for her now, as well as when I'm not on this earth?

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Yeah, that's beautiful. That that and there's legacy again. It's you know, uh that's the whole definition of legacy is you know, what do we leave behind when our time here is done? And so ensuring that she is cared for um is is such a is such a gift that we'll continue to to give her, you know, uh after you've finished your your walk on this earth, and may that be not for a very, very, very long time. Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

Well, you know, that's the thing. I think I was like, am I gonna be around and see her grandchildren? Am I gonna be, you know, and so I've definitely been trying to be healthier, right? All the things of less caffeine, less alcohol, like all of the things that are gonna keep me on this earth longer, to be to be um, you know, I just more regulated in in my character to her, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:46

Yeah, beautiful. That's beautiful. Well, we're about ready to wrap up. And and is there anything that I haven't covered? Because uh we've covered a lot.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Um we did, we covered a lot.

SPEAKER_00 45:57

And thank you for being so so transparent, so heart-opening in this conversation. But is there anything that you want to make sure that the viewing and listening audience leaves uh with uh that we might not have touched upon?

SPEAKER_01 46:09

I love how you do that, Susan. That was beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you. Well, so viewers, listeners, thank you for your time. We know that you could spend it anywhere. We know that there are more podcasts or or social media posts than than we know what to do with. So we are very, very grateful that you chose to spend some time with us. Once again, you know, one in six people are struggling. So if any of this resonated with you or reminded you of someone, please share. Please share. Your share may be the very thing that helps keep someone else out of the predicaments that we uh had touched upon earlier today. So thank you for your time, and we will see you at the next episode of Health University. And we close out each episode since we call it Health University with class dismissed.