Do you like Supernatural Then and Now? Well, one of our guests called Denim-wrapped Nightmares their "bratty, little sister." And you know what? Accurate! 🥂
Join SPN family newcomers, Berly and LA, as they recap the Warner Bros. CW TV series, Supernatural, episode by episode. Over drinks, they'll discuss lore, gore, and what they adore about the Winchesters and their adventures.
As a way to keep in touch during the 2020 pandemic, Berly and LA started podcasting with their debut, anything-goes talk show, The Tipsy Exchange. During those discussions, Berly and LA realized that they most enjoy talking humorously about TV/Film, mythology, suspense, and hot guys.
A Supernatural podcast seemed a natural fit. It's a match made in heaven... or hell. You decide!
If you choose to drink, please do so responsibly. CW/TW for violent and lewd commentary; listeners beware! 🔞
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
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Supernatural Season 2, Episode 5, Simon Said recap 🔮 Sam's visions lead the boys to Andy Gallagher (Gabriel Tigerman), a sweet stoner in a dirty van who can make anyone do anything he says, on Denim-wrapped Nightmares, a Supernatural rewatch podcast. And Dean likes him so much he... gives him the Impala?!
Sam has a vision of a man killing a stranger, and he's convinced it's tied to the Yellow-Eyed Demon. A trip to the Roadhouse gets Ash and his janky laptop on the case, while Jo eavesdrops on Dean and gives him a hard time. Ash finds a match in Guthrie, Oklahoma: Andy Gallagher, born in 1983, just like Sam (and Max from Nightmare). Other people, with no reason to hurt anyone, keep doing terrible things, and Andy may not be the only one in town with a gift.
Episode Highlights:
The happy man in the baggy suit, right up until his phone rings
Jo playing REO Speedwagon's Can't Fight This Feeling (subtle, Jo), and Dean getting caught singing it in the car
Ash's Dr. Badass is in door sign (and his pants situation)
Andy strolling out in slippers and a women's silk robe, chill as fuck
Andy Jedi-mind-tricking the debt collectors (we want this power)
How quickly Dean adores Andy, even after Andy swindles him out of his Impala ("He full-on Obi-Wanned me! It's mind control, man!")
Andy's very dirty van (when were those sheets last washed?)
Some genuinely disturbing scenes, including the gas station
Still no answer on what John whispered to Dean
In the lore segment, we ask whether mind control is real, from Aristotle's art of persuasion (ethos, logos, and pathos) to the origins of brainwashing in the Korean War, The Manchurian Candidate, and the CIA's MKUltra experiments and Operation Midnight Climax, which we first covered in Asylum.
Sam: "Hey, Ash, we need your help." Ash: "Well, then I guess I need my pants."
Your turn, hunters: If you had Andy's power, what would YOU make people do? And are you as charmed by Andy as Dean is? Tell us in the Spotify comments, leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts (it's how new hunters find us), or send us fan mail. Bonus points for fandom fun facts we missed.
Denim-wrapped Nightmares is a Supernatural rewatch podcast hosted by Berly and LA, breaking down every episode of the Winchester saga with lore deep-dives plus cast and crew interviews. Special thanks to David Fesliyan and Fesliyan Studios.
Subscribe, leave a review, and, if you choose to drink, please drink responsibly.
Join the hunt at linktr.ee/dwnpod where you can find links to socials and sign up for emails. Until next time, cheers!
Berly:
Welcome to denim wrapped nightmares a Supernatural rewatch Podcast where we explore the TV series episode by episode.
LA:
over drinks, we'll discuss the lore of gore and what we adore about the Winchesters and their adventures.
Berly:
I'm burly, and I'm a new fan of the series.
LA:
I'm LA, and I'm here along for the ride. Hello. Hello Burley.
Berly:
We are whipping through these season two episodes.
LA:
I know when you were like we finally get to hear what daddy said. I was like, it's only three episodes after this it it is and we still don't know what he said.
Berly:
We still don't know. They showed it in the little recap thing that they do before the episodes that showed daddy Winchester whispering into Dean's ear and so I was like, Oh, they're gonna true. Yeah, they're gonna tell us I thought that's what the tease was.
LA:
I guess that was the lot was that the season finale?
Berly:
Was the season premiere.
LA:
It was a season premiere.
Berly:
So you're right. It's only been a few episodes. But I want to know, I know. I know. We didn't get to find out in this episode, either. I know. I'm sure we'll find out before the end of the season.
LA:
We'd better should I recap next. What's wrong with me? Last week's episode.
Berly:
If you want to try and recap next week's go for it but we haven't watched it yet. So I don't know that you
LA:
would do what I meant to say was should I recap the last episode?
Berly:
Yes. Let's let's revisit where we were before we talk about where we are today. Okay,
LA:
Dean and Sam investigated the death of a college student had who had been a college student who had come back from the dead, that her pervy friend brought her back from the dead so that he could have her and keep her in his basement. But she decided no to take revenge on the people who had done her dirty when she was alive. And the emogene ended up taking her out, literally pinning her back into her casket, so that she could not get out and get be alive again. They had some bonding moments. They want to see mom's grave. Left dad's dog tags their dean opened up to Sam at the end of the episode that, you know, he feels responsible that dad died and he shouldn't be he shouldn't be alive. He should have died. And, you know, he's angsty grief still grieving. Yeah, that was kind of a very short recap. There's a lot of angst. Yeah.
Berly:
Lots of angst between these Winchesters Yeah. Well, this week was the fifth episode of season two called Simon said, it opens up where we see a scene. There's an older gentleman, well, older gentleman walking down the street. He looks so happy. He's so happy, but he needed a tailor. Yeah, his pants were too big. Yeah, it was. The suit was oversized. He needed a good tailor, but he just seemed like a pleasant individual, smiling, winking at people having a great day. That he answered his phone. He's just like, okay, all right. Sure.
LA:
He was like it almost like he was like, stunned when the person started talking.
Berly:
Like something changed. Yeah, for sure. Definitely, for sure in the demeanor before answering the phone versus when he was on the phone, right? He goes into a store. And he's talking to somebody who clearly knows him well, and he's asking about buying a gun. And the gun salesman is like, what do you want? Okay. I mean, I guess and so he specifically asked for a certain gun. The guide gives it to him, and he asks, you know, what kind of bullets go in the gun. So the guy pulls out ammunition shows him that he loads the gun. And the gun salesman is like, whoa, you cannot be doing that in here, Doc. He's calling him dogs. So Dr. Jennings is this character's name? And he just keeps saying it's okay. It's okay. It's okay. While he's loading the gun and doing all this stuff, and people around him are clearly going What the fuck is going on? So then he shoots the gun salesman before he turns the gun on himself.
LA:
Yeah. And before he says, before he does it, he says it's okay. Again.
Berly:
Yeah, that's okay. Just it's okay. Assuring everybody the whole time. It's okay. It's okay. Okay. Well, it turns out this is a vision that Sam is having. We switch over it, Sam, he's in the sink, splashing water on his face breathing heavily after having had this vision. were apparently at a gas station. Dean kind of kicks in the door and was like, what's going on? We need to hit the road. And then he sees Sam space sees that Sam's freaked out and he's like, what, what's going on?
LA:
What's wrong baby bro?
Berly:
Tell me all about it. Baby brother. We cut to Sam and Dean and the Impala. They're discussing the vision discussing what they want to do next, and Sam is recommending that they go to the Roadhouse. Let's go there where there's other hunters. Let's get some help. Let's talk about this further. Dane isn't really wanting them to to that he is concerned that if they go to the Roadhouse and start talking about how Sam has premonitions and a roomful of hunters, that that that's gonna cause a problem yeah, that people might want to come after him. But Sam is pretty insistent, saying that he believes that this is all connected back to the yellow eyed demon which they are still wanting to track down and get vengeance upon for the death of their mother, the death of the Jessica, and now the death of their father. They have a little correspondence where Sam makes a joke of Oh, so you think I'm a freak? And Dean kind of smiles? A little wink. It's like you've always been a freak. Anyways, they end up going to the Roadhouse. Anyway, so Sam gets his way. At the Roadhouse, we see Joe she's hustling somebody over a video game, and she wins his money. And he's like, Hey, that was my room money for the night. And she laughs and says, has been sleeping in your truck tonight. And Elon kind of tells the guy you should have checked the high scores before you did that. And it turns out it's all Joe. So the guy kind of did it to himself. Dean and Sam walk in Joe immediately goes into somewhat flirtatious mode with Dean you know, you couldn't stay away. Could you? And Sam walks in is just like, Where's where's ash? We need to talk to ash. Where is he right now just kind of pushes past Joe whenever she tells him where he is. Dean apologizes for Sam. He's like Sorry. And they go back to where Ash is hanging out in a room with a sign that says Dr. Badass, and he has a sign that can be flipped to be is in or is is out. So that was funny. We got another nip slip. I wasn't as excited about this nip slip. But kudos to you. Ash. What was he doing? No complaints. But yeah, what were you doing in there that you were literally bought out? strobe light going off? He apparently didn't have his pants on.
LA:
I don't think I want to know who knows. We won't ask
Berly:
questions as you do you. After ash comes out, he brings out his big janky laptop. And Sam is telling him things to look up. You know, he's telling him to look up this Blue Ridge bus line because it was something he saw in his vision and asking him to look into all kinds of things. They figure out that the area where Sam's vision occurred is most likely Guthrie, Oklahoma, based off of everything he looked up. So then Sam asks, If he'll look for demonic signs or omens, ashes, like nah, there's nothing. And Sam says, Okay, will you search the area for a house fire in 1983 and a baby's nursery on the night of the baby's six month birthday? And just Dean feared people look at Sam, with what the fuck kind of expression and ashes basically like that's really fucking specific. Why would I be searching for something like that? Sam and Dean both just kind of insists like, Just do it? Yeah, yeah, just do it. Joe is hanging around in the background kind of watching what's going on lurking around, just lurking around waiting for Dean to look her way. I don't blame you, Joe. I don't blame you one bit. She puts on REO Speedwagon. So I Can't Fight This Feeling anymore. Good song.
LA:
I mean, could she be more obvious?
Berly:
I didn't think about that. And Dean kind of teases her for her song selection. While Dean and her chatting Joe brings up. Isn't that the same way your mom died? What do you guys were talking about over there? I was eavesdropping. I heard what y'all said. But Dean replies, you know, it's just kind of a family thing. Basically mind your own business. Yeah, politely. But still, right around the time that Joe is teasing Dean for being afraid of her mother if he were to run off with her or something like that. Ash, and Sam announced that they've got a match. So we need to go. Dean basically says bye. See you later. Joe's obviously disappointed, but they get in the Impala. And what are they listening to? REO Speedwagon. I Can't Fight This Feeling.
LA:
It's just Dean singing
Berly:
it. Oh, it wasn't even planning. He was just thinking it's a good song. Yeah. Sam kind of teases him about it. Dean says, No, I heard the song somewhere. I just can't get it out of my head like I don't know. Whatever. What do you got? What do you got? Try to change the subject. And Sam, let him know that Andrew Gallagher in Oklahoma was also born in 1983 lost his mother in a fire like all the same markers as Sam and Max, who we met back in season one. Sam also brings up that almost every time he's had a premonition, it tends to be about one of the kids that the demon came after. And so he's thinking this permission is tied to Andrew, because Andrew is linked to the demon just like Max was Dean agrees that they'll go look into this Andrew Gallagher fella, and they don't have a home address, but they have a work address. So they had that way. We cut to a diner and there is Tracy, this is where he used to work. Apparently, Tracy is pouring them coffee and talking about Andrew telling Dean and Sam, you're not gonna get anything out of Andy. You guys never do. She assumes they're tax collectors or bill collectors or something like that. And let's Dean and Sam know that people always come around and after our conversation with Andy they just leave with nothing and so they may as well not even bother. But Sam and Dean say that they're actually lawyers representing a great aunt who passed away and left Andy all this money so she tells them look for a van with a barbarian woman riding a polar bear. And you'll find Andy Sure enough, they find the van in town and Dean comments that he's starting to like this guy. We see Andy leaving some apartment that's up and there's this woman and lingerie leaning out the window waving goodbye to them, which I liked Andy so I've decided the backstory for that is that she's she's a sex worker. But Andy just kind of talked his way out of having to pay. Oh, yeah, I don't want to think that he mind controlled her into Yeah, he just he just scammed her out of getting paid. Yeah. Which still isn't a good guy thing to do, but it's better than the alternative.
LA:
Yeah. When I like that he walked out and like slippers and then like a women's silk robe. Yeah,
Berly:
yeah, he immediately down the street just rolling up it just chill as fuck. He walks into some guy who's walking by with a coffee talks to the guy, the guy hands on the coffee. You're just happy as could be this handy guy. During all of this, Sam and Dean are still talking about the premonitions and that all these kids are killers and psychos where Sam is voicing his concerns about everything and the potential connections with everything and Dean telling him he's wrong, but that's not going to be the case. By the time all of this conversation is happening, Andy happens to run into Dr. Jennings from earlier who we saw in Sam's vision and Sam recognizes him right away. So Dean and Sam split up Sam gets out of the Impala to follow Dr. Jannings. And Dean follows Andy, who's gotten in his van and driven off Dean's following him in the Impala. Not too long after following Andy. The van stops, and Andy gets out of his van and comes over and starts talking to Dean about baby about the Impala and how much he loves it and how 67 was impalas best year and oh, it's a manual, blah, blah, blah just Dina's loving it, loving the conversation. And then Andy just says, yeah, it's great. Can I have it? And he goes, Yeah, man. Sure it gets out of the car. And let's Andy, get in the Impala and drive away. It was funny. He's driving off and Dean is watching him walk up, kind of a look crosses over Dean's face after a certain second. It's like what? Wait a minute. What just happened? Yeah. So Sam, who's following Dr. Jennings sees the doctor answer a cell phone call. So he rushes into the store where he saw the doctor go into buy a gun and sets off the fire alarm and everyone leaves. So Sam, thanks. I did it. I stopped it. Sam has run into dean at this point and Dean is explaining that he gave Andy the Impala. He said that Andy full on Obi wan to me. It's mind control. Then the doctor gets another call and steps out in the street in front of a bus and gets hit by a bus and killed Yeah, awful. So back at the diner Andy walks in. And the other guy who works at the diner his name's Weber is asking him Hey, what's up man what's going on and holds up his hand for a high five. But Andy just like walks right past him. Like he has nothing and go straight to Tracy. Andy is obviously upset telling her that Dr. Jennings has passed away. He's upset he wants to see her. And she says I'm glad you did and takes his hand and tells them I miss you. There's obviously something going on here between Tracy and Andy Tracy tells him about Sam and Dean and how they were in the diner looking for him earlier. Sam and Dean in the meantime have found the Impala handy just left the keys in it so they were able to pick it up. Just drive off with it. Dean was very upset like apologizing to the car and everything. They talked more about Andy and Dean says that he can't seem to work his mojo just you know from afar. He needs to actually be able to talk to you. You're hearing his voice and then Sam recalls that Dr. Jennings got a phone call before he walked In front of the bus, he has called and said something but Dean is not vibing with it. Yeah, he's just like, No, I don't think so. I don't think Andy is our guy. He doesn't seem like a killer to me. Sam's not buying it just yet, but Dean is pretty convinced that that Andy's not their guy. They go check out Andy's van and find that there is like a disco ball like it's a shaggin wagon in the back man. Like he's got blankets. There's a bong back there. Dean admires the painting of a tiger on the wall inside the van. Sam sees some books in the back. I didn't write down all the author's that Sam was listing off, but they were big ass books. So we're dealing with hippie dippie pothead intellectual, intellectual type here, not screaming psycho killer. Back in the Impala Sam is going through papers trying to figure out what's the motive here? Why did Andy want to kill Dr. Jennings? And it turns out that the doctor is squeaky clean, nicest guy. The vibe you get from him when we first see him at the beginning of the episode is dead on Yeah. So he's kind of I don't understand why would you want to kill him? And again, Dean is just it's if it was like, I don't think it was Andy, which is kind of upsetting Sam. He's just like, what this is like the mind control guy. And we saw somebody just step in front of a bus. We know that Andy can mind control. What is wrong with you, like do the math. You're Dean, why do you not think it was? And again, Dean is just pretty insistent. I just don't think it's Andy. Right? At that moment, Andy literally comes to the window and says, Hey, why are you guys following me? They're doing like kind of echoing effect on his voice so that we can so that we the audience know he's using his mind powers. And it's working on Dean. Dean is just spitting the truth. And he says, Tell the truth. Dean is straight up. We have demons. We have ghosts. We're here because we think a demon infected you. We think it's messing with my brother too. And I keep telling him it's fine. But honestly, I'm scared. Dean just spills his guts while Sam is still trying to lie and just looking at Dean like what the fuck is happening. And so the mind control is not working on Sam. Sam gets out of the car to try and get the mind control guy away from Dean who was just blabbering everything all their life secrets. There was even one point where Sam goes, Dean shut up and Gene goes from I'm trying. Sam gets out of the car and kind of leads Andy away from Dean. I think I already said that. But uh, well, and he's starting to ask Andy questions, you know, all the questions. He was asking Max and everything and Andy's basically like, how did you know that I don't know what's happening. And while Sam is talking to Andy, he starts to have another vision of a woman setting herself on fire at a gas station. While Sam is having his vision. He's getting a headache and kind of leaning over Andy's like, I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's wrong, Dean gets out of the car comes over to check on him. And while this little commotion is going on between the three of them, and he trying to figure out what the fuck is going on, Dean tried to find out what the vision is about Sam trying to actually talk about what the vision is about. We hear sirens in the background. So this time, Sam had the vision in real time. While the events were happening. There was no leeway for them to have time to stop anything. It was already happening. Dean goes to the gas station and confirms this call Sam and lets him know. And they figure out you know, Andy was with them. He is not the one who called them. They were literally talking to Andy while this was happening. So they're thinking okay, if it's not him, who else could be doing this? They have a conversation with Andy where they tell him everything. Sam explains his premonitions and all of that. Andy says, you know, that sucks, man. This sucks, bro. When I got my powers, it was like I won the lottery. Yeah. And Sam asks, you know, with your powers and everything, why are you still living in a van? Why are you still because he could be doing a lot more. But turns out Andy's a good guy. He says I've got everything I need.
LA:
He doesn't need some money to pay off those debts. So those debt collectors so coming around
Berly:
inherently not he can just tell a debt correct that collectors to fuck off and they do. Get Some Money Man. Dean comes back and tells Sam and Andy both about who the victim was the woman at the gas station. It was Holly Beckett, but ash had called Dean while he was heading back. And it turns out that Holly Beckett gave birth back in 83 same day that Andy was born. So ash had looked into stuff like they asked and he figured out everybody who had had a baby, you know, back in 1983 Around the same time as Sam's birthday after more conversation. It turns out, Andy was adopted. And this was actually his birth parent. And they figure all this out, or they don't figure it out, they kind of figure it out, put two and two together, then they go to the public records office to get it all confirmed. And it's so funny. Like, Andy talking to the public records guy just like, Oh, it's fine. We're fine. Everything's cool. Sending him out of the way. And Dean is just like, This is awesome. He loved having Andy there to just be like, Oh, you're just gonna let us do this. They're at the Public Records Office. They confirm everything. Holly Beckett is actually Andy's birth mother. All the killings that are going on have to do with Andy Dr. Jennings got killed because he's who delivered Andy and who helped set up the adoption and everything because Holly was just a little kid. And they confirmed that Andy actually had a twin brother. And so Dr. Jennings separated the two brothers. Whenever he put them up for adoption, they are able to get a picture of the twin brother, and it's the Weber guy who wanted the high five back at the diner. And he is explaining how he showed up like, six, eight months ago in town, it was just suddenly acting like he was my best friend didn't think anything of it. And we find out that Ansan Weber he wanted that when says type of brothership brothership brotherhood. Yeah, that's the word I want. Brotherhood. He wanted that codependent bullshit. Yeah. wanted them all to himself. He did. He didn't want anybody getting in the way. In the meantime, and some Weber is at the diner with Tracy, the woman who works there who we saw kind of have a moment with Andy earlier, he confronts Tracy, basically saying, Hey, I know that you and Andy have something going on. I know there's something still there. I know you used to go out. Back at the Public Records Office, Sam starts getting another vision where he's seeing Tracy standing on the edge of a dam. And she's crying, obviously scared but jumps over the edge. Then we come back to real time and some is has basically kidnapped Tracee from the diner. And it turns out he has the same mind control powers as Andy so he was the bad guy all along. It wasn't our sweet hippie Andy. Yeah, Dean was right. On his
LA:
brother. His powers seem to be a little more advanced than Andy's
Berly:
right, because he's able to do some mind control without using his voice. Yeah. So we're on the damn anthems. Being real creepy in the car telling Tracy you believe you can fly. And you might be scared, but you're gonna believe it and you're gonna do it. But Sam and Dean pull up behind him just in the nick of time. Sam and Andy go forward to confront andsome and try to help Tracy Dean stays back while they're trying to do all of this. That kind of tackle and some and I think it was Andy who put duct tape over and some mouth. They're trying to talk to him. But that's when he uses his mind control to get Tracy to knock Sam the fuck out. And that's when and some does the whole villain speech right where he's talking to Andy about, you know, I had to kill them. They tried to separate us we should be together. And I want us to be when says I want us to be brotherhood. I want us to be codependent and Andy is just going What the fuck are you talking about? While they're having this argument? Dean is sneaking up along the ridge. He's got a gun. He's totally planning to take anthem out. And then anthem does this creepy thing where he turns around, and it's like I see you and starts mind controlling Dean from far away. And Dean moves the gun as if he's going to shoot himself. But then Andy picked up Sam's gun and shot anthem. So we cut to black for a commercial. And then we come back and it's daylight. The police are talking to Andy and he's telling them and some shot himself. You all saw it. You all know what happened. And they're like, yes, yes, we do. Took care of that. And Tracy is sitting on like an ambulance or something. But she won't look at Andy. So that's kind of sad. Yeah. Andy kind of says, I've never had to use my mind control on her before. I've never done it until last night. He's like she's scared of me. She won't even look at me. So Andy's finally feeling some of these repercussions of his power, I guess. I'm not sure what else the point of that was. Sam gives Andy his phone number and basically says you know if anything else comes up, get in touch with us. You're not alone. Right. And as they're walking away, Sam just like I guess I was right. He's a killer after all. Dean says he was a hero. Yeah, quit being fucking ridiculous. Bottom line. According to Sam he wasted somebody is not a foaming at the mouth Psycho is what Dean said he was pushed to into that so, Sam's trying to make it black and white. You're either a killer or you're not Dean's trying to get Sam to understand there's gray here. Yeah, he is not somebody he was. He's not like and some who just decided oh, I'm gonna go I use PayPal like he it was it was he was trying to save Dean try to save Tracy trying to save Sam. Yeah, it was trying to save everybody really? He did. He did he did. Sam also, you know, when Dean's trying to make him feel better about everything Sam's like, I know you're scared to okay, I'm scared. I'm freaked out. That's why I'm saying this. I'm terrified. I'm going to end up having to hurt somebody. And I know you're scared too. You admitted it. And Dean tries to be like, that was just the mind control, whatever, like get over it. So they're going back and forth. Still, they really aren't on the same page quite yet. In the meantime, they get a call from Elon that they've got some more news. So they go back to the Roadhouse. Elon asks the guys if they want to tell her about their last hunt, and dangerous as No, no offense, it's a family thing. And Elon says Not anymore, and pulls out a bunch of papers, because ash found a whole bunch of shit. Turns out that Andy, his adopted mom's house burned down on his six month birthday. Just like Sam's. So Elon has kind of put it together that you guys think this all has to do with the demon, don't you? Sam just opens up and it's like, yes. Dean is still hesitant. He doesn't want to bring other hunters into this. He wants to have it just be with the family. But Sam is obviously wanting to get help from other people. If we can get this demon why not do that? Ellen gets pretty sassy with Dan Dean. She's like mind your mouth. Your mouth was what wasn't mind your mouth? Mind your mouth with me, boy, something like that. So Ellen says no secrets are half truths here like this is going to be we're going to talk about this. We're gonna figure this all out together. Ellen asks if the other psychics are dangerous and Dean says no, not all of them. But Sam of course chimes in some of them are you know, which Sam chill out? Like I understand Max was dangerous, but he was also severely traumatized. Yeah. Cut the guy some slack. It ends with them trying to figure out did everyone's house catch on fire? Did everyone have it happened six months after their birthday. But it turns out that andsome the twin brother, his mom didn't die in a fire. So that breaks the pattern. And andsome whenever he was being creepy, and talking about oh, we're gonna be together. He mentioned the yellow IDM and actually came and talked to him. So he's the only one who's literally had conversation with a yellow eyed demon. But also he's the only one whose mother didn't get burned alive. Which you know what? Maybe she wasn't a very attentive mom. Yeah, maybe whenever he was a baby on his six month birthday and was crying. She just said fuck it and rolled over and didn't go check on the baby. And so that's why she survived. Yeah, who knows. But anyways, they've kind of figured out there's not necessarily an exact pattern here. Which means it could be a lot more people than they were originally thinking. That's kind of where it ends that Sam and Dean are going to get more help from ash, Joe and Ellen, and try to track down these other psychic children who are affiliated with yellow eyes and figure out what the fuck is going on. Yeah, they still don't have an alternative on how to kill yellow wise, true. But I guess probably the hand you're dealt and they're going to try and figure out where he is and actually accept some help from these other hunters now.
LA:
Yeah, good.
Berly:
I adored Andy. You did and I adored how quickly Dean adored Andy. Yeah,
LA:
those cute.
Berly:
He's just like, I don't know. I don't I just don't think even after Andy swindled him from his Impala. He was still like,
LA:
I just don't Yeah, I mean, he's just like smiley with Andy. Yeah,
Berly:
I liked that. I liked that little dynamic there a lot. I thought this episode was cute. I thought we were gonna get more out of it. Same Yeah. Especially with all the things they were reminding us about. In the beginning. I thought that there was going to be more information by the end of the episode, but it's nice to finally meet another child. You've been wanting to meet another one since max. So we've got Max and Andy now. I wonder how that was gonna be. Well, we did how to Max. Max. Oh, Max and andsome right. So it was three total? Yeah, only one has been left. Yeah. Still alive. Yikes. So I wonder how many more there is going to be after this.
LA:
Oh, it was pretty terrible. Watching that lady. Put gasoline all over herself. Yeah. On fire. That was awful. It was
Berly:
pretty terrible. Dr. Jenkins in the store getting the gun that stuff like there was some things that were just not pleasant, but I wouldn't say boring, right? More disturbing. Yeah. Overall, it was a cute episode. This isn't going to be one. I know. This isn't going to be one of my favorite ones by the end of the season, but it was cute.
LA:
Yeah. So for the low war. We looked over are like mind control stuff. Yeah, that was Andy's gift or whatever. Mind Control is that real? Well, we're starting, I'm going to start out with the art of persuasion. Oh. So persuasion is best defined as a process whereby a person's attitudes or behaviors are influenced by another person and enables you to argue for or against ideas, decisions, and actions that have a material impact on you, your associates and customers. It began with the Greeks who emphasize rhetoric and a lacuna elocution at the highest standard of a successful politician. All trials were held in front of the assembly and both the prosecution and the defense rested as they often do today, on the persuasiveness of the speaker. Aristotle identified three basic elements to every persuasive argument in which you learned this in school ethos, logos, pathos,
Berly:
I might have heard about that in school, but I wouldn't say I learned it.
LA:
Well, the ethos is the credibility, knowledge, expertise, stature and authority of the person who was persuading, logos, the appeal of logic, reason and cognitive thinking. And the pathos is the appeal to emotions, the non cognitive non thinking motivations that affect decisions and customs. So when you're trying to be persuasive, they say, to get your way, you need to ask yourself these three questions for your credibility, your logic and emotions. Do I come across credible? Is my position logical? And am I appealing to the other person's emotions? So these are the three things you kind of need to do when you're trying to persuade somebody and change their mind but not necessarily control them. Okay, so then we kind of did, we delved into brainwashing, because there's no real, no technically no real mind control that we know or that we learned in our research. But journalist Edward Hunter, was the first to kind of sound the alarm on brought brainwashing tactics. He said brainwashing tactics force the Chinese into ranks of the Communist Party. And he sounded this alarm in 1950. And he ended up writing a book about it and describe how Moussa dongs, they don't I probably say in that room, Red Army use tariff terrifying ancient techniques to turn the Chinese people into mindless communist, automate, automate Adam automatons, automatons got it. And he he coined this as hypnotic this hypnotic process is brainwashing, a word for word translation from z now the Mandarin words for wash and brain and warned about the dangerous applications that could have. But the process was meant to change your mind radically so that its owner becomes a living puppet, a human robot without the atrocity being visible from the outside.
Berly:
I mean, that sounds like mind control to me. Yeah. And rain
LA:
story is a tell a story that we tell to explain something like we can't otherwise explain. The term has multiple definitions that change depending on who was using it. For Hunter, he actually turned out to be an agent in the CIA's propaganda wing. And it he's said it was a mystical oriental practice that couldn't be understood or anticipated by the West. But for scientists who actually studied the American POWs once they returned from Korea, brainwash, oh, my god. Brainwashing was altogether less mysterious than the readily apparent outcome that they had been tortured.
Berly:
Was it CIA? who also did like MK Ultra?
LA:
Yeah, I wasn't gonna go too much into all that. Because I mean, I feel like we've talked about that before. But yeah, like MK Ultra, the Midnight Climax, and then like the LSD experiments back in the 60s, and yeah, we did talk about that recently. Yeah. But yeah, those were all. But it was all it was all the CIA. Right, right. And it's all them experimenting with trying to control control mines and use it for like, basically, weapon them, weaponize them, you know, and there was some concern on the part of the American military about what happened to the POWs and whether they had been manipulated to be what, which would later be known as a Manchurian Candidate. Oh, yeah.
Berly:
I've never seen that.
LA:
I think I've seen parts of it, but I'm nursing the whole thing. There's, well, there's original and a remake, too.
Berly:
I don't think I've seen either of them.
LA:
Aside, Marsha Holmes, a science historian at the University of London's hidden Persuaders project. She said that there they weren't sleeper agents, but again, she said they had just been extremely traumatized and tortured. And in the early 1950s, the debut of the military's militaries studies into cycle logical torture debuted and instead of concluding the American soldiers needed rehabilitation, military directors came to a more ominous conclusion that the men were simply weak. Oh my god. So they became less interested in the fantasy of brainwashing and became worried that the men couldn't stand up to torture. And this resulted in the survival evasion resistance escape program meant to inoculate men against future attempts at psychological torture by using those same torture techniques in their training.
Berly:
That is horrifying. Yeah, that's pretty fucked up stuff.
LA:
Like we were saying you can look into all the other stuff or our lovely government has done to people and on innocent people annoying people to Yeah, like people in prisons, minority prisoners of war minorities. Yeah. Yeah. pretty terrible.
Berly:
I'd much rather just deal with Andy. Yeah. And his van. Oh, that man dirty van. Oh, like when were those sheets washed last? I don't want to know Yeah, I don't want to know. Well, it's close it out. We have a quote from whenever Sam and Dean got to the Roadhouse and they first went vegan on ashes door.
LA:
And Sam says, Hey, Ash, we need your help.
Berly:
And ash says well, then I guess I need my pants. Cheers. Thank you for listening to denim wrapped nightmares.
LA:
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