Mindful B2B Marketing | Business Growth and Social Impact (Former: Forward Launch Your SaaS)

S2E10: How to start proactively doing marketing as a small business owner -- ft. Ram Prasad, CEO of Delence

• Keirra Woodard • Season 2 • Episode 10

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Main Insight:
Ram Prasad, a small business owner, explains how embracing structured marketing strategies, such as leveraging LinkedIn and consistent content creation, led to doubling his company's revenue, and emphasizes the importance of viewing marketing as a long-term investment for small business growth.

Guest Bio:
Ram Prasad is the CEO of Delence, a company specializing in providing fractional CTO (Chief Technology Officer) and CPO (Chief Product Officer) services to businesses. With a strong background in technology, Ram has recently developed a passion for marketing, particularly in the context of small business growth. His expertise lies in bridging the gap between technology and marketing, helping businesses scale effectively by leveraging tailored tech solutions and strategic marketing insights.

Step-by-Step Advice for Moving Away from Referral-Only Business Growth

  1. Prioritize Business Growth: 
    • Allocate a marketing budget and consider hiring marketing professionals. View marketing as an investment in your business's future. This helps you avoid inefficiencies and leverages expertise to craft a more effective strategy. 
  2. Identify the Right Social Media Channel:
    • The first crucial step is to identify the most effective social media channel where your target audience is most active. This decision should be based on where your potential customers are likely to be found. For example, if your customers are tech startup CEOs, they are more likely to be on LinkedIn or Twitter rather than Instagram or Facebook. Start by focusing on one or two platforms to ensure your efforts are concentrated and effective.
  3. Consistency in Posting:
    • Once you have identified the appropriate channel, the next step is to post consistently. The ideal frequency for most businesses is at least two to three times a week. Consistency is key because posting regularly helps keep your brand top of mind with your audience. Ram emphasizes that the goal isn't to aim for a viral post but to build a presence over time through regular and consistent posting. He recommends setting aside a specific time daily or weekly for content creation and posting to maintain this consistency. Understand that marketing requires patience and consistent effort, much like gardening. Focus on nurturing your strategy and be prepared to commit for several months before expecting significant outcomes. 
  4. Create and Share Original Content:
    • It’s important that the content you post is original. Original content reflects your unique perspective and experiences, which is more engaging and valuable to your audience. Ram advises against simply copying content from others or using generic content generated by tools. Instead, use your own experiences, such as summarizing a customer interaction or a recent project (while maintaining confidentiality), to create content. This approach ensures your content is authentic and resonates more deeply with your audience.
  5. Measure and Adjust:
    • After establishing a routine of consistent posting, the next step is to measure the effectiveness of your posts. Pay attention to the feedback you receive, such as likes, comments, and shares, to understand what content is resonating with your audience. However, Ram warns against overthinking this process. Instead, focus on experimenting and adjusting your content based on the feedback and engagement you observe. The key is to keep iterating and improving your strategy rather t

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[0:33] All right, today I'm sitting down with Ram Prasad, and we are going to talk about why marketing is important to small business growth. Ram is the CEO of Delence, and I'm super excited to chat with you today.


[0:50] Same here, Keirra. I love this topic. It's a new passion of mine. After years of technology focus, I've started falling in love with marketing. So, yeah, excited about this conversation. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about how you started Dellens and why you kind of got into this space? And what does Dellens do also? Sure. So Dellens provides fractional CTO and CPO services.


[1:23] CTO is Chief Technology Officer and CPO is Chief Product Officer services to customers. Our clients are typically seeded startups or small businesses looking to augment their technology, their company with technology or product leadership on a fractional basis. So I started this sometime early 2016. I was working full-time as a VP of engineering at a growing technology company here in the Houston area. When a CEO of a technology company reached out, he wanted to recruit me into his organization. I was not ready for a change. So then he offered me, he said, why don't you work part-time for a few hours a week? And so that's how I got started. I was still engaged full-time, and I was spending a few hours in the evenings and weekends working with this customer, solving his specific problem that he reached out to me for.


[2:25] That's how it got started. One thing led to the other. He gave me some additional referrals after a successful engagement. I got referrals, and some other referrals came in. And before I knew it, I was operating a business, and that's what we've been doing since 2016. So it grew organically and it was a service that people needed.


[2:48] And so that's how they started. Well, that makes a lot of sense.


[2:53] And so what was your growth trajectory with your company? Like, how did you promote it to begin with? And how did that change over time?


[3:05] Sure. I was not really thinking of this as a business. Like I said, it grew organically. It just happened when the first prospect, a customer, reached out and I started it. So i was just taking it as a business as an opportunity for self-employment it started off a few years i i was a solo solo entrepreneur where i was working on one project after the other and so i spent a few years doing that again then as through the through the first after a couple of years of doing that again a customer asked me for some assistance in some other project work I needed to hire a team for that. So that it came, it led to me hiring a team to deliver the project that the customer asked me for. Again, one thing led to the other. A point came where I could not handle all the workload. So then I had to reach out to other consultants like people with equal experience as mine to help service the clients so it just grew because it I'd reached the threshold of what I could handle as one person and then it grew from there and that's how it's growing even today you reach some limit then you need more people and then you need more resources and then it grows, So that's what happened in the initial years.


[4:34] Earlier this year, in 2023, actually late 2022, early 2023, I realized I was


[4:43] offering something of value based on customer feedback, customer requests. And so I recognized that it is not sufficient to do a great job. More customers need to have access to the service. There was a demand for it. So I decided I needed to let the world know that we exist. So in addition to doing a good job, you need to let them know. So that transformed late last year, where I decided to have a focus on marketing and started marketing Delance. And then consciously, as opposed to just waiting for referrals or just doing a good job or occasional marketing. Like if I meet somebody, I would just, you know, in a networking meeting, I would informally mention that I'm offering this service. But those were not scalable marketing solutions. Those were one of things. And that was sufficient to generate income. It was sufficient to hire a few people, but it was not sufficient to scale and grow and be recognized as a business entity on its own. So that's what I decided to do in late 2022.


[5:58] So, yeah, I think a lot of small business owners are, you know, in this mindset of, you know, they start something, they're really proud of their work, they're getting lots of referrals, and that's how all of their business is growing. And then it takes a mindset shift to think about your business as a business entity that needs its own promotion team. It's a totally different way of getting started than, you know, getting some investment. So what kind of triggered that mindset shift for you? And what would you tell other entrepreneurs to do if they were in your position? Sure. So the mind shift trigger happened because as I was talking to people and customers, they told me that the service was valued. you.


[6:48] So I was constantly hearing that. And so, especially in the last, especially during the COVID period, there was a spike after an initial downturn, it actually turned out to be an increase in volume. I got a lot of positive feedback that this is something that they needed. They were waiting for this, they had this gap in technology or product leadership in the organization that they needed to fulfill, and they were not able to recruit or hire a resource at a full-time level. So when I heard this continuously, and when I looked back at how my business was growing, it grew organically, I recognized that there were more people who needed this service. And so that's when the mindshare occurred. I said, okay, people want it. Some i'm offering something valuable so might as well and then i was also ready in the sense that i had done this for a few years i was comfortable doing this i knew i knew what it takes to for a successful customer engagement so i had built processes that were scalable across multiple customers i had built you know internal internal uh.


[8:00] Cookbooks so to speak run here here is how to do it so I had the foundation in place so then I felt it was time to go beyond just onesies and twosies it was time to go beyond that and and offer this to a wider variety of customers okay okay so what what specifically did you do to kind of transfer from that referral-based, you know, business growth to some kind of structured marketing program that was like repeatable? What did that look like for you and your company? Sure. So the first thing is leveraging social media to be recognized as an expert in the area. So that's step number one. And I'm still working on that. But so to come to be so that's the first thing so i i so i have a newsletter that i publish once a month on fractional ctu and cpu services then people can subscribe to i conduct a weekly podcast where i interview top product and engineering and startup leaders so that i'm viewed as an And so I interview them. So people, customers know me as somebody who has a lot of connections and a lot of access to resources that go beyond just myself.


[9:30] And I publish on my channels, LinkedIn, social media. I've chosen LinkedIn right now to focus my energies on. And I publish two to three times a week on a variety of topics, on a mix of information that is useful to my prospective clients, but also a little bit of promotion. And I mix a little bit of personal matters as well, just so that they know that I'm a human being. I'm a person. So it's not just promoting the business, but it is also sharing information, a little bit of promotion, but also providing a personal touch of me and my family, how we spend our time, how the family influences my success. And just so they see the whole person because the business is a relationship business. It's really customers who come through relationships. So you have to establish a relationship. So the more they know you. The relationship is more open and more topics of interest that come up. So, yeah.


[10:38] So were you kind of the only person doing these marketing activities like on your team? Like how many people were working in your company around the time that you started actively doing marketing?


[10:53] Yeah. So I have half a dozen CTO consultants on various different engagements. I have around 10 technical resources working on projects, but the marketing is, I have a marketing assistant who helps me do the routine tasks of following up on emails, following up on messages, but I'm drafting the, you know, getting the images together and that kind of activities. But in essence, I hired that person. I hired that person. So that person was not part of the team, but it was mostly me because nobody, and this is an experience I've learned, nobody sells better than the founder of the company in the early stages of the business. So I've not scaled my marketing organization yet, where it goes beyond me. But I'm in the early stages of marketing my business. So right now, it's predominantly me.


[11:54] And of course, there are tools out there. I leverage all the available tools out there to do a better job. But from a person focused on that right now, it's me. But i'm hoping it'll be beyond me i have it'll be beyond me but i do have marketing help in terms of marketing guidance i i have a marketing consultant i reach out to who provides high level strategic directions maybe some initial pointers so there's a yeah so but he that marketing consultant is not in-house team it's a consultant i've engaged just like people engage me for or technology or product, I've engaged a marketing consultant to help me with strategy and approaches.


[12:41] So when you started doing this, it sounds like you started a lot of different things at once. And like with it mostly being like you generating the content, maybe with some help from your marketing assistant. So how did you manage your time? You know, you're already like the CEO of the company. You've got all these people to manage. How are you finding the time to post on LinkedIn and host a weekly podcast and all of that?


[13:08] That's part of the marketing strategy. That's part of the marketing strategy. Your customers have to know, and your competition has to know, that that's what it takes, that you have to do everything. Thing that that the that they that they that's so so you have to find time so if i do a podcast if i do a i organize a monthly entrepreneurial meetings i do content i'm busy i'm busy as you can imagine but that's part of customers confidence in knowing that and i'm not compromising on my client deliverables as well.


[13:50] And my customers know that. My customers know that. And so it's a matter of, and that keeps me, that excites me. That doing that actually excites me. But in terms of time management, yeah, you have to manage time very well. You have to manage time very well. So I have a focus, start a task on a client or a customer activity or a marketing activity, focus 30 minutes on it, take a two-minute break, two to three-minute break. The next 30 minutes is whatever the next priority is, whatever the case might be. Either it's a customer, in 30 minutes, activities are bursts of activities. So in the 30 minutes I'm focused, I shut down my emails, I shut down my text messages, focus on the task at hand, whatever it might be. Get on to the next time, 30 minutes. So it's a burst of 30-minute time slots where I'm focused intensely on a particular task before I get on to the next task.


[14:50] So there may be a 30-minute burst of activity where I'm focused on my emails. So then I check my emails for the next 30 minutes, answer all the emails, and then that's my email time. Then in the next 30 minutes, okay, I have a client project that I have to do. So I work on that, coordinate the activities necessary, but I'm focused on that particular activity 30 minutes at a time. So that's how I learned how to do it. The other thing that's important that I have learned over time is in order to do any kind of business, especially for early startups where they might be doing it in addition to their regular employment, is to have high levels of energy. So you need to allocate time for exercising, eating well. So that's very important because you might want to do all kinds of things. But if you're tired at the end of the day.


[15:49] Then it doesn't matter what you want to do. It does not matter. You just cannot. You just cannot. So eating right. And for me, exercise is, so I spend an hour a day on yoga. So the first thing I do is get up from 6 a.m. to 7 a.m. in the morning. I am doing yoga. So it's consistently doing that. And so for everybody, it's different. For me, yoga works because it stretches the body, it stretches all parts of the body, it stretches the, it works out for me. But whatever works out for you, whatever works for you to give you high energy is what you should do. So you should find an exercise that you can sustain and interest in. I tried a variety of different exercises, running and gym and stuff like that. I could not continue that over an extended period of time. I got tired of it or I got bored of it. It is, it was not me. It was not me. So everybody, you have to find out what's right for you, but that's part of the trick. That's part of the trick. So yoga every day for me.


[17:03] And that gives you the energy. So seven o'clock on the dot, you stop. And then your next 30 minute slot, whatever it takes, whatever it is, if it's eating breakfast, eat that with full intensity. Focus, focus, focus on breakfast. You don't eat breakfast along with seeing your iPhone. So you enjoy your breakfast, you enjoy your cup of tea, you enjoy, you focus on that, you enjoy it. If you're spending time with your family, you focus on that and do that. So whatever it is, avoid distractions. That keeps the energy high and you can accomplish a lot more with intense focus for 30 minutes.


[17:45] Well, that kind of reminds me of that author Cal Newport. I've read a lot of his books, but he's all about deep work and living a deep life, which gets misconstrued in the media sometimes, but it essentially is just about what you just said. No matter what you're doing throughout your day, you're present and you're focused on it so that you're not just distracted and being pulled in 15 different directions. When you're sitting down eating dinner with your family, you're not checking social media or, you know, ideally, you're not text messaging back and forth with your coworkers trying to get some project done. Like if and you try to if that's not possible at the moment because of other people's priorities. And over time, you try to structure your life that way and set more boundaries or make upgrades in your career to where you can do that. So, yeah, I think that's an interesting way to look at it. Yeah. And I try that. There's a constant battle of going back to bad behavior, so to speak, for lack of a better term. But that's the goal. That's the goal. You try that. You try that. And it actually helps you. But independent of that, some exercise to start off your day that works for you, that you can sustain, keeps the energy level high.


[19:08] Okay. And so I'd like to switch gears a little bit and then talk about it in the context of someone who maybe is an entrepreneur and wants to get into marketing despite like not having a background in it.


[19:27] Like what kind of step-by-step actions would you tell them in order to, you know, start implementing and moving away from just like that referral-based marketing? Sure. So firstly, social media is the place to start. Digital marketing is the way to start in most cases. So step number one, if I would think about from a sequential step number one, is find the channel. Because it takes a lot of energy to post on LinkedIn, to post on Instagram, media, YouTube. There is no shortage of social media channels available.


[20:06] So find the channel. Focus on the channel. And try to, when you're getting started, focus on one, maybe two at the most. At the most so that the way to find the channel is where are your where is your audience who are your customers so first step i guess the preface is who are your customers who's likely to buy your product and services have a starting point there where do these customers live so my customers as an example predominantly live in on linkedin so my customers are you know the ceos of growing tech startups they either on linkedin and or on twitter predominantly i mean they you don't find them on posting on instagram publicly or facebook or snapchat they are on and so so step number one find the channel step number two whatever you do be consistent so it's it's not one post that that becomes viral, I mean, I've never had a post that goes viral, I'm still waiting, and everybody, you don't shoot for the viral post. So step number two is to post consistently.


[21:26] So, consistently, the ideal for most businesses is at least two to three times a week. I mean, if you can post every day, power to you. The more, the better.


[21:38] But whatever you choose, and minimum is two to three. I mean, anything less than that, it does not get traction and people forget about you. So, you need to post at least two to three times a day and more if possible. Two to three times a week, I mean. so so find the 30 minute slot focused on marketing where you are posting making social media so that's the step number two is okay between 11 and 11 30 every day put in your calendar that you will focus on posting something so take that time and there are several tools available right now to help you create material, to help you with identifying materials. But it has to be, posting is not just copying and pasting from some content somewhere. It's not just asking chat GPT to generate some content. It is not reposting somebody else's content, but posting is creating original content. Now, sometimes people may say, oh, I don't have any original content. Everyone does. Everyone does. We are having this conversation a summary of this conversation is a content I'm doing some work with a customer without diverging any confidential information it is content.


[23:02] Everything I do and everything people do can be content, so if you think of it that way everybody has original content everybody has original content so two to three times a week, be consistent. It's like yoga every day. It does not take, you don't see the difference in one week or two weeks or three weeks, but you see it over months and years. So the impact of that is not one viral post, but cumulative posting every week.


[23:40] So that's the second. So you post. Then once you are doing that, The third step is to adjust. You will get feedback. Oh, I don't like this post. I don't like, you can measure the feedback, whether how your posts are doing, what kind of posts are doing well, what gives you reaction, what is giving you customers. You can measure all of that. So do not break your head into what's the right kind of post I should do or who should do that? Who should I target? What kind of, who is it? How many likes do I get?


[24:12] No, it's hard to, what I think will generate maximum response gets the least sometimes. I don't know. I don't know. So you measure. So third is just do something, because if you overthink it, you may do nothing. So measure what you do and adjust accordingly. So those are, you know, anything more than three recommendations is hard to digest. So I'm going to stop at three.


[24:41] It sounds good what was the business growth i guess or like the amount of you know referrals and clients that you were getting you know each month or each year prior to actively doing marketing and then after you did it what was the the change and the result Sure. So my revenues have roughly doubled in the past year. So until 2022, more than doubled. Until the end of 2022, I was at a certain number in revenues. 2023 has seen my revenue double. And I have to attribute all of that growth to the marketing effort. I mean, there is, it has, and it has, the number in 2022 was similar with marginal increases. I mean, I have had marginal increases every year since 2016. But except they were doing the early, in the year 2020, there was a slight dip actually, a significant dip in the early stages of COVID. The pandemic, there was a significant dip. But besides that, there's a gradual increase. But in 2023, compared to last year, and the year is not over yet. The year is not over.


[26:01] And so, and I have to attribute that entirely to the marketing. A lot of my, I got several of previous clients who knew I, who might have forgotten that I existed, meaning they know about me. I have done work for them several years back, but the engagement was over. But with my active presence in social media, they felt that they needed my service again. Came they they felt that there was a need for that i mean they they had they had a need but seeing my social media posts and my so they i had several previous clients come back into the organization as customers i mean they were passive clients and i would send them occasional messages like happy new year and happy fourth of july and stuff like that i would send them over the years.


[26:58] But so i had several of those come back i had a couple of new customers as well you know just out so all of these they were so a lot more inbound inquiries resulted and i haven't and all of it attributed in some form or fashion the focused marketing that i did and this is the this was the plan i mean i didn't expect quite frankly the results but i had not projected in that fashion, I just decided it was a thing to do. It was the right thing to do. I met a marketing consultant who I've engaged, who told me that's the only thing to do. So I took it on faith. And I said, Okay, I have nothing to lose. Let me try. Let me try. And no, it is so. So I'm looking forward to next year now.


[27:46] Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a pretty remarkable growth story. With With this content you're posting on LinkedIn, it's your LinkedIn profile is like how big it's just filled with like past clients or are you actively connecting with people? Like how are how are people even seeing your post? Yeah. I am constantly, that's part of marketing. I am expanding the network. So I attend, like I told you, I attend, I conduct a podcast every week. So then I get a new connection, people who come into that podcast, who are guests of mine. So I build that connection. So I have a marketing assistant to keep track of all that. So who comes to the podcast, send a message, request a connection request.


[28:34] So that's part of the work. So I'm definitely expanding the network through that. I'm looking at influencer sites, people who are influencers in the industry. And I actively put comments, provide value with my own comments to this. So that some of the connections come through that but yes it's an ongoing increasing the number of connections so i've doubled the number of connections i have right now, it wasn't large before you know because i wasn't actively focused on growing that it was people i knew and people anybody who sent me a connection request is who i would connect with or you know or if i met somebody but yeah right now i'm focused on growing that i mean it's it's It's a small base, relatively smaller base. I don't have tens of thousands of connections. It's a smaller number, relatively smaller number, but it's growing. It's also growing. But yeah, there's an emphasis on that as well. And that's part of the strategy to grow your brand.


[29:41] So with any of the marketing efforts you've done so far, have you encountered any unexpected challenges? Or are there other pitfalls that, you know, other entrepreneurs who may be in your position might encounter if they attempt this? I think there is a risk of trying to do too much in a distracted fashion. I mean, when I say too much, what I mean is go overboard with LinkedIn, with Twitter, with Facebook, Instagram, and all with one person. So then you then you will be distracted so start so that's one challenge i did initially start off with linkedin and twitter i am because it's only me i'm scaled down and focused only on linkedin right now but i need to get back to twitter at some stage so i i did i tried to do both so that's That's one of the challenges. And it is necessary. It is necessary. So it's something on my plate to do that I have to do. But maybe as the company grows some more, I can get some assistance in that and then do that. Yeah. So doing too much too soon as far as marketing efforts. The other one is not spending money on marketing.


[31:06] Because the challenge today is there are a lot of do-it-yourself approaches. And in principle, that is correct. You can, you have, there are enough of tools and knowledge available to do it yourself. But if you're not a market, so if I were to do, if I did not reach out, if I did not have the marketing consultant to provide strategy and directions and some nudging here and there and some assistance there if i were to do it myself, me not being a marketing expert i would have to spend a lot more time and energy learning the basics so so the other so that's a pitfall where you could not be so it's it's marketing you have to spend your budget wisely without a doubt so it helps to have revenue coming in because i'm not i'm not i'm spending money that is based on revenues that are coming in so it definitely helps to have revenues coming in but nevertheless you put a reasonable budget but have a budget have a marketing budget and you should view marketing as an investment in the future it's like i like to equate this to gardening you can't go in the viral post would would be like the fruit on the tree. So on day one, if you focus on the fruit.


[32:31] You will not, it's hard to get the fruit just by looking at your seeds, but you have to focus on the water, the soil, the fertilizers, the prevention against the hailstorm and hurricanes. You have to protect your plant and you have to tend to it. So the focus should be on tending to the plant and maybe the fruit will show up. Hopefully it does. Hopefully it does. But you cannot imagine the fruit from the seed. And so that's equivalent to the viral post example. So one of the challenges is not seeing immediate results.


[33:17] So that's a challenge. So you have to make sure that you stick with it. So one thing that I think trips up a lot of business owners to where they never see this growth is like, they just don't see the value in doing active marketing. So you said it's doubled your business growth. You said, you know, clients were telling you, oh, this is so valuable. And that just kind of triggered that mindset shift for you. Is there anything that you would say to encourage an entrepreneur who's maybe in this mindset of, I really, I don't need marketing to like go ahead and like invest in it like what what are what are some of the things that they might be missing with their current mindset well the biggest thing is consistency so if you do it for three weeks and stop and take a break for a week and then do it for two weeks and then take a break for four weeks.


[34:19] That's what I have seen. I mean, I have done that before from 2016 to 20. So I've been in that boat myself, post inconsistently. When you do that, you don't know whether you're getting the results or not.


[34:38] So that's like putting it, watering once a week, forgetting to water, forgetting to put fertilizer. So you do it inconsistently. And guess what? Your fruit is not coming through so you have to do it consistently so if anything so you cannot measure the results until you do it for at least a few months so you have so the the advice i would give the recommendation and i and having done this myself and knowing the difference it makes versus posting consistently i know and i i know that only three to four to five months after doing it the first three months i'm doing it on faith i'm doing it on faith so you have to go through that period where you just believe that to be true so give you so i that's hard to do that's hard that's hard to visualize and imagine but six months the other thing is okay post consistently that's important i mean that's the key if nothing else without that you're it's i I don't think it's going to work.


[35:44] But once you post consistently, then things on, once you've made the commitment, I'm going to post it twice or thrice a week, then you have to adjust what you post. But that's the second step because you have to measure what works, what does not work. But independent of that, you have to post.


[36:05] And it's better to post something, but it has to be, you know, you can take, Obviously, you can take information from a variety of sources, but what you have to post is there is something unique about what you're sending the message that's different from what somebody else could send a message on. So it has to be, if it's a generic, if I could post or you could post the same information, it's not unique. But if it is something that only I can say because of my specific experience, and everybody has that specific experience, it's not unique to any one individual. Visual so then you but you so you have to do that so you have to consistently post original content.


[36:45] That and then see the results six months later.


[36:50] Okay. Well, thank you so much, Ram, for your advice and your insights. As we're wrapping up, I'd just like to shine a spotlight on you.


[36:58] Is there anything you're working on? Anything you'd like to promote? Anywhere you'd like people to get in touch with you? Sure. If you're a growing startup and if you have product delivery or product strategy challenges, Dellens can help you. With their fractional CTO and CPO services. As I mentioned, I'm actively on LinkedIn. So you can always send me a message on LinkedIn. Search for my name, Ram Prasad Delance. You'll find me. You can also go to my website, delance.com. D-E-L-E-N-C-E.com is a contact us button there. You can also reach me that way. But yeah, send me a message on LinkedIn and happy to provide. We have a free consultation to talk about your product delivery and product strategy questions. Happy to assist you. Okay, well, thank you so much.


[37:50] You're welcome, thank you. And thanks for the questions here. I enjoyed conversing.