S2E11: How to Create Truthful Marketing Claims -- ft. Mike Maynard, CEO of Napier

Main Insight:
Focusing on truthful claims in marketing enhances credibility, builds stronger customer trust, and leads to more effective campaigns that resonate with B2B audiences, ultimately boosting brand reputation and fostering sustainable client relationships.

Guest Bio:
Mike Maynard is the CEO and owner of the Napier Group, a PR-led, full-service marketing agency specializing in the B2B technology sector. Under his leadership, Napier Group works closely with clients to develop strategic campaigns that drive impactful results and deliver a significant return on investment.


Step-by-step process to ensure that marketing claims are accurate:

1. Before Starting a Campaign, Learn About the Products:
   In highly technical industries, it's crucial to get product managers and engineers to brief you on the product details. Use these interviews with product experts to create a comprehensive briefing sheet for reference within your organization. This briefing sheet should serve as a "source of truth" for advertising claims and be continuously fact-checked by everyone involved. Creating this briefing helps writers on the marketing team communicate effectively, as they need to understand the information to put it in their own words, and the briefing sheets can also be repurposed as marketing content. 
2. Build the Campaign with Long-Term Considerations:
   When creating your campaign, focus on developing a strategy that supports long-term goals and sustainability rather than just immediate results.
3. Seek Feedback from External Reviewers:
   Get input from people outside of the campaign, whether they are other members of the marketing team or from other departments. This external perspective helps refine the nuances of the message, making it more effective and clear to your audience.
4. Find a Knowledgeable Fact-Checker:
   Identify a fact-checker who thoroughly understands the product, possibly an engineer, to ensure the marketing claims are technically accurate and clearly conveyed. This step ensures that all claims are valid and aligned with the product’s capabilities.

SIGN UP FOR THE EMAIL NEWSLETTER at forwardlaunchdigital.com/podcast

Chapters

• 0:33 Introduction to Honest Marketing
• 4:31 The Importance of Truthful Claims
• 6:10 Common Pitfalls in Marketing
• 8:40 Legislation and Ethical Marketing
• 9:19 Long-term Thinking in Marketing
• 11:56 Balancing Honesty and Promotion
• 20:07 The Power of Testimonials
• 24:10 Case Studies and Their Impact
• 26:05 The Consequences of Dishonesty
• 29:31 Handling Mistakes in Marketing
• 32:45 Factors Leading to Misleading Claims
• 35:38 Integrating Long-term Thinking
• 36:05 Steps for Accurate Marketing Claims
• 40:02 Collaborating with Technical Experts
• 41:56 Building a Culture of Honesty
• 47:12 The Role of Clarity in Marketing
• 47:43 Conclusion and Contact Information

Transcript

WEBVTT

00:00:34.214 --> 00:00:39.774
All right, I'm sitting down today with Mike Maynard, and we are going to talk

00:00:39.774 --> 00:00:44.514
about creating truthful claims in the marketing sphere.

00:00:44.954 --> 00:00:50.254
So Mike is the Managing Director and CEO of the Maynard Group,

00:00:50.494 --> 00:00:54.934
which is a PR and marketing agency specializing in B2B technology.

00:00:55.414 --> 00:00:59.974
So Mike, I'm super excited to chat with you and dig into your background.

00:01:00.414 --> 00:01:03.554
All right, so cool to be on the podcast, Kira. Thank you. you

00:01:03.554 --> 00:01:06.434
yeah would you mind telling us a little bit about

00:01:06.434 --> 00:01:09.614
how you got into your

00:01:09.614 --> 00:01:12.794
current role and like your your background in marketing and

00:01:12.794 --> 00:01:19.074
why you're passionate about it um yeah so it's a bit of a long story um i started

00:01:19.074 --> 00:01:23.694
off my career as an electronics engineer so i was designing electronic systems

00:01:23.694 --> 00:01:27.634
i realized i wasn't a great electronics engineer but i was really good about

00:01:27.634 --> 00:01:30.074
talking about technology and about electronics.

00:01:30.574 --> 00:01:34.634
And so I moved into a technical sales role, they called it application engineering.

00:01:34.914 --> 00:01:41.594
So I worked for a company selling silicon chips, including a big American semiconductor company.

00:01:42.134 --> 00:01:47.034
And then I sort of realized, you know, I was running the applications team in

00:01:47.034 --> 00:01:49.774
Europe, and kind of it was a case of, you know, for promotion,

00:01:49.954 --> 00:01:52.254
you can either go to the US or you can try something else.

00:01:52.334 --> 00:01:55.194
And I thought, I'm gonna try marketing you know that that'll be

00:01:55.194 --> 00:01:58.354
a an interesting thing to do it still plays to my strength of

00:01:58.354 --> 00:02:01.234
talking a lot and so i moved

00:02:01.234 --> 00:02:04.274
to become european marketing manager and then

00:02:04.274 --> 00:02:10.434
about five years in to being european marketing manager i i went on a training

00:02:10.434 --> 00:02:13.714
course at the end of the training course we we all had a few beers of course

00:02:13.714 --> 00:02:18.614
and somebody said oh you should run your own agency and i think what they were

00:02:18.614 --> 00:02:22.134
saying was you know what mike i really wouldn't want to be your boss.

00:02:22.534 --> 00:02:24.674
But they said, you know, you could go out, you could run your own company.

00:02:24.714 --> 00:02:26.834
It'd be great. And I thought that'd be amazing, but it'll never happen.

00:02:27.334 --> 00:02:32.054
And then about two months afterwards, the agency I was using actually approached

00:02:32.054 --> 00:02:35.114
me and they said, you know, the two founders are looking to retire and sell.

00:02:35.714 --> 00:02:38.774
And would you be interested? And of course I thought this is great,

00:02:38.834 --> 00:02:41.054
perfect timing, you know, a little bit of luck.

00:02:41.514 --> 00:02:43.774
And so I bought an agency. I bought

00:02:43.774 --> 00:02:48.194
an agency in 2001 and, and started off thinking, well, how hard can it be?

00:02:49.059 --> 00:02:51.179
How hard could it be? It was really hard.

00:02:53.819 --> 00:02:58.239
It was really hard. I managed to buy an agency that specialized in technology

00:02:58.239 --> 00:03:01.059
around about three weeks before the dot-com crash.

00:03:02.079 --> 00:03:05.919
So the timing was not ideal. And it's tough.

00:03:05.979 --> 00:03:09.399
It's tough running an agency. Even having done some marketing on the client

00:03:09.399 --> 00:03:12.499
side, it's really difficult to run an agency.

00:03:12.519 --> 00:03:15.739
It's a different environment. a month you know if you work i'm

00:03:15.739 --> 00:03:18.819
sure listeners here absolutely will know

00:03:18.819 --> 00:03:22.479
this depending on their role you know if you work client side there's a lot

00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:26.899
of internal things you need to do and actually you're doing perhaps less marketing

00:03:26.899 --> 00:03:29.979
than you might think particularly as you get more senior but if you work on

00:03:29.979 --> 00:03:34.819
agency side it's all about delivering marketing activities and so it's a very

00:03:34.819 --> 00:03:38.279
different approach a very different philosophy and it took me a while to learn.

00:03:39.419 --> 00:03:42.319
Okay okay so how are things

00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:45.919
going nowadays like has there been any any

00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:49.739
change since when you took over the company to now and

00:03:49.739 --> 00:03:52.559
yeah well great question i mean we're 22 years

00:03:52.559 --> 00:03:55.539
older so we've survived 22 more years that's that's

00:03:55.539 --> 00:03:58.479
great um and actually we've grown quite a

00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:03.119
lot as an agency so when i acquired the agency was about seven people and now

00:04:03.119 --> 00:04:08.499
we're about 37 people so we've grown quite it significantly we bought a couple

00:04:08.499 --> 00:04:13.679
of agencies and we've also grown um through you know organic growth and developing

00:04:13.679 --> 00:04:18.019
clients um so business is doing well you know bigger management team,

00:04:18.659 --> 00:04:23.339
people based you know not only in the uk now but also we have an office in the

00:04:23.339 --> 00:04:28.459
states in silicon valley and yeah the the agency's done well it's it's actually

00:04:28.459 --> 00:04:31.079
you know i've been lucky to to get That's where I am.

00:04:32.036 --> 00:04:37.016
Yeah. Sounds awesome. Sounds awesome. And so I know you wanted to talk a little

00:04:37.016 --> 00:04:41.056
bit about honest marketing communication.

00:04:41.396 --> 00:04:46.916
So could you tell me like why that particular topic is important to you and,

00:04:46.956 --> 00:04:51.456
you know, how it melds with your, your experience running your agency?

00:04:52.496 --> 00:04:58.156
Yeah, it's a great topic, Kira. And I think a lot of people in B2B actually

00:04:58.156 --> 00:04:59.916
understand the importance of honesty.

00:05:00.276 --> 00:05:05.676
You know, I, as I said, I started my career as an engineer. So I was the target audience.

00:05:06.156 --> 00:05:10.156
And now I'm trying to reach those same people. And I remember when I was an

00:05:10.156 --> 00:05:15.116
engineer, you know, people, they didn't like fluff, they didn't respond to,

00:05:15.216 --> 00:05:19.316
you know, exaggerated claims that frankly, were patently untrue.

00:05:19.536 --> 00:05:24.436
And I think this is true to a large extent of a lot of business to business marketing.

00:05:24.896 --> 00:05:28.716
You know, people don't tend to make impulse purchases and B2B.

00:05:29.076 --> 00:05:31.756
There tends to be groups of people, you tend to have to make a case.

00:05:32.456 --> 00:05:37.296
There's a process. And that process has been brought in by the companies buying

00:05:37.296 --> 00:05:41.916
the products or services to slow it down and to make sure people think.

00:05:42.556 --> 00:05:47.336
And so if you make either untruthful or even exaggerated claims,

00:05:47.876 --> 00:05:50.976
at some point that gets discussed during the buying process.

00:05:51.016 --> 00:05:56.396
And people are very open to say, actually this isn't true and there's nothing

00:05:56.396 --> 00:06:01.496
i think that that is going to kill the chance of a company making a sale than

00:06:01.496 --> 00:06:05.656
someone in that buying committee or decision making unit turning around and

00:06:05.656 --> 00:06:10.376
going yeah what they're saying isn't true it undermines the credibility of the supplier.

00:06:11.256 --> 00:06:14.116
And what we're seeing now is we're actually seeing a change

00:06:14.116 --> 00:06:16.896
in the world you know the internet now means that

00:06:16.896 --> 00:06:20.136
it's very hard to hide things if you're not truthful and so

00:06:20.136 --> 00:06:24.016
i think it's not just b2b it's now b2b and consumer where truthfulness

00:06:24.016 --> 00:06:27.896
actually really matters okay it really

00:06:27.896 --> 00:06:30.836
matters and what do you what do you

00:06:30.836 --> 00:06:35.656
think are some of the common you

00:06:35.656 --> 00:06:41.816
know pitfalls companies fall into or common like scenarios that you might see

00:06:41.816 --> 00:06:51.116
where a company is making less than honest claims in their in their marketing or sales efforts.

00:06:52.096 --> 00:06:58.696
Yeah, this is fascinating. And I actually feel most companies don't go out to be dishonest.

00:06:59.156 --> 00:07:02.956
I mean, some companies go out to hide things they don't want their customers

00:07:02.956 --> 00:07:06.036
to know about, but most companies are not going out to be dishonest.

00:07:06.096 --> 00:07:11.416
So what happens is people talk about a product and then they start hyping it up.

00:07:11.816 --> 00:07:16.736
And we're marketers, right? We don't just want to go, yeah, this product is okay.

00:07:17.016 --> 00:07:21.396
I mean, there was a great film back in the 80s. You're way too young to have seen it.

00:07:21.476 --> 00:07:26.056
But back in the 80s, there was a film called Crazy People where they got people

00:07:26.056 --> 00:07:28.096
in a lunatic asylum to write a marketing copy.

00:07:28.216 --> 00:07:30.456
And they just literally wrote factual copy.

00:07:31.263 --> 00:07:36.903
And, you know, I mean, one of the most famous lines from it is Volvo,

00:07:37.043 --> 00:07:38.543
it's boxy, but it's good.

00:07:38.963 --> 00:07:42.303
And at the time, Volvos were really boxy. I mean, more than they are now.

00:07:42.423 --> 00:07:46.643
And it was patently true and incredibly funny.

00:07:47.143 --> 00:07:50.563
But I'm not sure that really gets buyers excited about Volvo.

00:07:51.023 --> 00:07:54.963
So, you know, we're not suggesting that you've just got to list facts.

00:07:55.163 --> 00:07:58.723
I mean, that's not what I'd say. But I think what people try and do is they

00:07:58.723 --> 00:08:00.823
try and present the product in the best light.

00:08:01.263 --> 00:08:04.243
Which is what you know that's the purpose of marketing and then

00:08:04.243 --> 00:08:07.183
they get carried away and then they start pushing and particularly

00:08:07.183 --> 00:08:10.223
in b2b sometimes people actually make claims

00:08:10.223 --> 00:08:13.123
about very technical things that maybe they don't understand maybe

00:08:13.123 --> 00:08:16.863
they're not a technical expert and then they might you know make a claim that

00:08:16.863 --> 00:08:21.143
they think is correct but then isn't so to me i think it's like pushing those

00:08:21.143 --> 00:08:25.823
boundaries and people push a little bit too hard and at the moment you know

00:08:25.823 --> 00:08:29.603
that there are some sanctions obviously people might not buy your product you

00:08:29.603 --> 00:08:31.283
know if it's an appetite an advert,

00:08:31.423 --> 00:08:33.643
paid advert, you might get that advert banned,

00:08:33.903 --> 00:08:35.843
you know, that sort of thing happens, particularly in the UK.

00:08:36.363 --> 00:08:40.103
But moving forward, I think there's going to be more and more legislation.

00:08:40.763 --> 00:08:45.603
And at the moment, you know, going through the EU is something called the Green

00:08:45.603 --> 00:08:48.903
Claims Directive, which I think advertisers need to really understand.

00:08:49.503 --> 00:08:54.443
And basically, that is saying what you can and can't do in terms of making claims

00:08:54.443 --> 00:08:55.223
around sustainability.

00:08:55.963 --> 00:08:58.143
And I think we're We're going to see more and more of this legislation.

00:08:58.963 --> 00:09:02.823
And yes, the penalties are painful, but to actually be prosecuted under the

00:09:02.823 --> 00:09:05.803
legislation, I think will cause a lot of reputational damage.

00:09:06.003 --> 00:09:10.043
So companies need to be aware of this, and they need to be thinking about how

00:09:10.043 --> 00:09:14.283
they stay within the law, because the impact of being prosecuted is going to

00:09:14.283 --> 00:09:18.243
be far greater than someone revealing that maybe you stretched the truth a bit in an ad.

00:09:20.135 --> 00:09:23.435
Yeah, it's always good to be like forward thinking, like,

00:09:23.475 --> 00:09:27.875
because I think maybe companies are like very reactive a lot of the time or,

00:09:27.895 --> 00:09:36.035
or it might be a cultural thing where you're trying to make the best decisions as a business leader.

00:09:36.035 --> 00:09:41.075
I mean, generally, most business leaders I talk to seem to have that mindset.

00:09:42.695 --> 00:09:47.915
But you're mainly thinking in terms of like, oh, well, how many customers am

00:09:47.915 --> 00:09:48.875
I going to need next year?

00:09:48.975 --> 00:09:51.775
What are the number of sales I need? Which obviously you have to do that.

00:09:52.755 --> 00:09:58.715
Nobody's saying that's a bad idea. But there's like a second dimension or a

00:09:58.715 --> 00:10:02.575
second viewpoint to look at everything and evaluate all your decisions through,

00:10:02.695 --> 00:10:07.175
which is, you know, am I making a decision right now that's going to be good,

00:10:07.335 --> 00:10:11.635
like not just over the next couple of months or the next year,

00:10:11.715 --> 00:10:14.335
but what about longer term into the future?

00:10:14.335 --> 00:10:19.775
And that might lead you to think about things that are not a law right now,

00:10:19.855 --> 00:10:22.575
because right now it's like be legally compliant, obviously.

00:10:22.895 --> 00:10:27.915
But what about five years from now? This is a trend where a lot of people are doing this thing.

00:10:28.235 --> 00:10:31.615
More and more laws are being passed in an area.

00:10:31.835 --> 00:10:36.395
And maybe we need to be taking a more critical look at our different processes

00:10:36.395 --> 00:10:41.135
and investing in things to prevent those issues from arising.

00:10:41.135 --> 00:10:47.375
So here and here's one thing that I mean, I could personally like relate to

00:10:47.375 --> 00:10:50.895
because with the with the honesty and marketing,

00:10:51.015 --> 00:10:56.615
because when I got into like my first full time job post college,

00:10:56.915 --> 00:10:59.935
it was like doing marketing for a tech company.

00:10:59.935 --> 00:11:04.195
And it was just kind of like you described, like it's so like you're just like

00:11:04.195 --> 00:11:09.055
this kid who's like fresh out of college and like you just got your first job

00:11:09.055 --> 00:11:11.175
and you don't know anything about like.

00:11:12.095 --> 00:11:16.295
I mean, it's one thing to like learn a totally new product. Then you got to

00:11:16.295 --> 00:11:18.995
learn like all these different industries you're talking about.

00:11:19.215 --> 00:11:23.955
You got to learn like all these. You have no idea what these technical specifications are.

00:11:24.135 --> 00:11:27.295
And so they might just give you a list of like, oh, here's the talking points

00:11:27.295 --> 00:11:30.755
for our product. and how am I supposed to verify that?

00:11:30.815 --> 00:11:32.475
I barely understand what you're talking

00:11:32.475 --> 00:11:36.635
about when you get beyond just the surface level of what this does.

00:11:36.815 --> 00:11:40.115
So how do you reconcile that?

00:11:40.455 --> 00:11:47.195
I mean, as a marketer at varying levels of a team, I mean, that happens when

00:11:47.195 --> 00:11:51.555
you're new, that happens when you're working with clients,

00:11:52.015 --> 00:11:55.455
doing marketing for somebody else. How do you...

00:11:56.730 --> 00:11:59.890
Make sure that you're holding yourself to

00:11:59.890 --> 00:12:03.850
a high standard of being honest when you're not totally informed

00:12:03.850 --> 00:12:06.850
on everything that's that's going on or it's

00:12:06.850 --> 00:12:11.010
just very very difficult to educate yourself that's such

00:12:11.010 --> 00:12:14.550
a good question and you know i think if you

00:12:14.550 --> 00:12:17.490
look at it it's not just people are new i mean in a

00:12:17.490 --> 00:12:20.270
lot of sectors you know products are becoming more and

00:12:20.270 --> 00:12:23.150
more complex and it's impossible to be

00:12:23.150 --> 00:12:26.430
an expert on the products you're marketing you know in in

00:12:26.430 --> 00:12:29.750
our sector you know we work with semiconductor companies they're

00:12:29.750 --> 00:12:32.530
these silicon chips right that there's a handful of people

00:12:32.530 --> 00:12:35.510
in the world who really truly you know understand how

00:12:35.510 --> 00:12:38.310
they're built and what they do and pretty much

00:12:38.310 --> 00:12:41.450
none of them are marketers they're all engineers so i

00:12:41.450 --> 00:12:45.190
think the only way you can do it is through communication and you've

00:12:45.190 --> 00:12:48.510
got to be talking to people you've got got to be making sure that you're

00:12:48.510 --> 00:12:51.630
checking what you're doing back with the stakeholders in

00:12:51.630 --> 00:12:54.370
your company and particularly where it's technical and you're making

00:12:54.370 --> 00:12:57.310
technical claims i mean validating you

00:12:57.310 --> 00:13:00.950
know what are effectively factual claims to make sure that you're not saying

00:13:00.950 --> 00:13:05.610
something that's incorrect is super super important and it takes time and it

00:13:05.610 --> 00:13:09.610
takes involvement of the people who actually know and understand which might

00:13:09.610 --> 00:13:14.890
be the product people might be the engineering teams But I think they can really help and they,

00:13:14.930 --> 00:13:18.570
they can direct you and as you start doing it more and more,

00:13:18.670 --> 00:13:22.490
you'll actually learn more and more about what's okay and what's not okay.

00:13:23.010 --> 00:13:26.830
You know, and we're all familiar, you know, people that they want to make their

00:13:26.830 --> 00:13:29.930
product sound as good as possible. It's really important to them for the product to be successful.

00:13:30.250 --> 00:13:35.810
And I want people to, to be positive about their products, but at the same time,

00:13:35.810 --> 00:13:40.470
you know, make sure that what you're doing is not something that someone's going to look at and go.

00:13:41.970 --> 00:13:45.570
Don't know I can really trust that vendor because that's not strictly true.

00:13:46.250 --> 00:13:51.870
I mean, what we're seeing is more and more companies are choosing suppliers rather than products.

00:13:52.752 --> 00:13:57.132
But by that, I mean, you know, as a company, generally speaking,

00:13:57.492 --> 00:14:01.712
when they're buying B2B, they want to buy suppliers that are going to have a

00:14:01.712 --> 00:14:05.392
long-term relationship with them rather than keep chopping and changing for

00:14:05.392 --> 00:14:07.712
every single, you know, new requirement.

00:14:07.892 --> 00:14:09.432
So they want long-term relationships.

00:14:09.892 --> 00:14:14.012
Long-term relationships are built on trust. They're not built on misleading people.

00:14:15.472 --> 00:14:20.592
Okay. Okay. That makes sense. I mean, that makes sense.

00:14:20.752 --> 00:14:25.652
Like if I can imagine if I were like evaluating different companies to work

00:14:25.652 --> 00:14:30.412
with, I'm not just looking at, oh, this, what are the technical specifications?

00:14:30.672 --> 00:14:35.472
It's just kind of like, it's also a matter of like, do I trust who I'm working with?

00:14:35.552 --> 00:14:39.132
Do I trust, like if one thing is wrong, do I trust that all the other things are accurate?

00:14:39.232 --> 00:14:43.432
And then if I can't trust it, it's hard to advocate for it.

00:14:43.512 --> 00:14:47.172
So I'll probably just start looking at the next best option. it's

00:14:47.172 --> 00:14:50.112
a different company you're so right and i think

00:14:50.112 --> 00:14:53.252
i think when when companies buy from a

00:14:53.252 --> 00:14:56.292
supplier that they then find has you know maybe exaggerated or

00:14:56.292 --> 00:14:59.872
misled them in some way whether it's deliberate or not um all

00:14:59.872 --> 00:15:03.492
that supplier's doing is getting a short-term benefit short-term sales

00:15:03.492 --> 00:15:09.512
but mortgaging their future they're basically saying you know we're gonna destroy

00:15:09.512 --> 00:15:13.292
our future we're gonna have poor results because we're gonna let people down

00:15:13.292 --> 00:15:17.892
and ultimately i guess that that That is the issue with any kind of claim that's

00:15:17.892 --> 00:15:22.332
not entirely truthful is ultimately it leads to your customer feeling let down.

00:15:22.772 --> 00:15:24.712
And that's not a good customer experience.

00:15:25.452 --> 00:15:30.972
Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess, how do you strike a...

00:15:32.452 --> 00:15:36.932
How do you strike a good balance between underselling your

00:15:36.932 --> 00:15:43.872
product due to maybe not fully understanding the marketing claims or just having

00:15:43.872 --> 00:15:50.032
low confidence in whether or not your very specific technical details are right

00:15:50.032 --> 00:15:53.512
versus overselling and potentially misleading people?

00:15:54.152 --> 00:15:57.712
I love that because I think you're right. As I said earlier,

00:15:57.972 --> 00:16:03.212
I don't believe marketers necessarily go out to mislead. I think often it's inadvertent.

00:16:03.332 --> 00:16:07.112
And equally, I've seen products that have been undersold.

00:16:07.412 --> 00:16:11.752
And clearly, the marketing team has not understood either the benefit the product

00:16:11.752 --> 00:16:16.652
offers or what that benefit means to the end customer. They've not recognized what's important.

00:16:17.952 --> 00:16:21.992
And so I think one thing you shouldn't do is you shouldn't be running scared

00:16:21.992 --> 00:16:25.432
of actually presenting your products in the best light, because that's what

00:16:25.432 --> 00:16:27.492
you need to do as a marketer. you need to be positive.

00:16:27.912 --> 00:16:32.092
And so I think it's more about, you know, looking to push those boundaries,

00:16:32.732 --> 00:16:36.612
looking to be as positive as possible, and then getting someone to go and effectively

00:16:36.612 --> 00:16:39.772
fact check it for you and make sure you haven't gone too far.

00:16:39.992 --> 00:16:45.232
But if us as marketers, we're not looking to push hard and to present the product

00:16:45.232 --> 00:16:50.292
with, you know, all the features and, you know, make it clear as to what the

00:16:50.292 --> 00:16:51.772
potential opportunity is.

00:16:51.792 --> 00:16:54.752
And not every customer is necessarily going to, you know achieve all the

00:16:54.752 --> 00:16:57.432
potential benefits but if we're not doing that we're not

00:16:57.432 --> 00:17:00.232
doing our jobs so you're absolutely right you know we shouldn't be

00:17:00.232 --> 00:17:02.932
sat there terrified of making claims we should be out

00:17:02.932 --> 00:17:07.772
there making claims and you know building messaging that really gets people

00:17:07.772 --> 00:17:12.292
excited about our products and our services but what we need to do is make sure

00:17:12.292 --> 00:17:16.212
that before we run them they are checked and they are checked by somebody who

00:17:16.212 --> 00:17:20.532
is not in the marketing team as such who has you know, other responsibilities,

00:17:20.652 --> 00:17:21.732
things they care about more.

00:17:21.792 --> 00:17:26.472
Um, and they're concerned about the long-term future and the long-term reputation of the company.

00:17:27.672 --> 00:17:34.232
So as a business owner, as someone who does, you know, what you do,

00:17:34.312 --> 00:17:37.872
like, how do you set that up so that,

00:17:38.582 --> 00:17:42.342
you're making sure that all the claims that you guys are making are accurate.

00:17:43.122 --> 00:17:48.862
That's a great question. And for us, it's really hard because we're a service provider.

00:17:49.042 --> 00:17:53.022
So we're providing something that's intangible and something that,

00:17:53.042 --> 00:17:57.022
you know, although you work to achieve consistency when you're a marketing agency

00:17:57.022 --> 00:17:59.442
and you want every client to receive the best possible service,

00:17:59.642 --> 00:18:04.042
there's certainly a difference in at least the way that services are delivered

00:18:04.042 --> 00:18:06.762
based upon, you know, which individual is managing the account.

00:18:06.922 --> 00:18:12.262
So So there is inevitably some degree of variation in the experience from client to client.

00:18:12.382 --> 00:18:15.882
And obviously, our job is to make sure we give the client the experience they want.

00:18:16.022 --> 00:18:21.182
Some clients might want somebody who's super, super enthusiastic and crazy keen.

00:18:21.362 --> 00:18:24.142
And on the other side, there are other clients who are like,

00:18:24.262 --> 00:18:27.942
you know what, just give me a bit of a break. This is too much.

00:18:28.502 --> 00:18:33.922
So I think what you need to do is you really need to look at what you've done

00:18:33.922 --> 00:18:38.622
for clients in the past or customers in the past. and then use that as a way

00:18:38.622 --> 00:18:41.582
to describe to what you can do for future customers.

00:18:41.982 --> 00:18:46.742
And that works really well with services because ultimately services tend to

00:18:46.742 --> 00:18:48.262
be fairly consistent in time.

00:18:48.782 --> 00:18:53.482
But it also works really well with products because typically what you've got

00:18:53.482 --> 00:18:56.422
is you're offering a product to a customer.

00:18:56.462 --> 00:18:59.562
You've then got a new product you can offer to a new range of customers.

00:18:59.762 --> 00:19:04.822
So what you can offer is that previous experience plus the additional benefits of the new product.

00:19:05.202 --> 00:19:10.782
And as long as you really, you know, hammer down to exactly what happened with

00:19:10.782 --> 00:19:14.762
that previous customer, why they loved you, and then what the new features are

00:19:14.762 --> 00:19:16.822
really going to mean to potential customers,

00:19:16.922 --> 00:19:22.282
I think you can create compelling stories that really excite customers and prospects,

00:19:22.622 --> 00:19:27.182
but at the same time, are not going to leave you, you know, open to that risk

00:19:27.182 --> 00:19:31.162
of letting customers feel let down or feel that you over-promised.

00:19:31.482 --> 00:19:34.442
And so you're going to to build that trust and that trust is going to build

00:19:34.442 --> 00:19:39.022
that long-term relationship, which ultimately is going to build those bigger profits. Yeah.

00:19:40.122 --> 00:19:45.982
I've been a fan of like testimonial based marketing for a while,

00:19:46.102 --> 00:19:51.702
like just passively, like as I come across that as a, a, a useful strategy to

00:19:51.702 --> 00:19:53.962
kind of lead with testimonials.

00:19:53.962 --> 00:19:57.302
I don't think that that's something that everybody thinks about.

00:19:57.402 --> 00:20:01.322
Like you might think about, Oh, what's my headline first or what's my,

00:20:01.322 --> 00:20:05.882
You know, what, like sitting around in the back room, what's our marketing copy

00:20:05.882 --> 00:20:08.342
going to be? How are we going to describe this new thing?

00:20:08.482 --> 00:20:15.122
But, you know, starting with collecting a testimonial or better yet,

00:20:15.182 --> 00:20:19.962
like a longer kind of case study with more details or an interview of a previous

00:20:19.962 --> 00:20:21.662
customer, depending on what it is,

00:20:21.762 --> 00:20:24.062
could be really powerful to lead with.

00:20:24.062 --> 00:20:28.522
Because for one thing, it's totally impossible to be dishonest.

00:20:28.962 --> 00:20:31.162
You're literally just, unless you're.

00:20:32.551 --> 00:20:35.431
Intentionally manipulate it or like if

00:20:35.431 --> 00:20:38.531
you if you just literally like interview a customer and then

00:20:38.531 --> 00:20:41.931
take the the audio or video or transcript of

00:20:41.931 --> 00:20:44.791
it and then just put that somewhere that's like

00:20:44.791 --> 00:20:47.831
the literal most honest review of your product that can

00:20:47.831 --> 00:20:51.211
possibly exist and like people tend

00:20:51.211 --> 00:20:54.111
to describe things better in

00:20:54.111 --> 00:20:57.031
their own words like once they've experienced something as

00:20:57.031 --> 00:20:59.651
a customer than they do when they're trying to sell it like i

00:20:59.651 --> 00:21:02.271
think most people most marketers could probably relate

00:21:02.271 --> 00:21:08.111
to that where if you're like recommending something you've done or used to a

00:21:08.111 --> 00:21:13.731
friend versus like if you try to communicate your own thing that you're selling

00:21:13.731 --> 00:21:18.611
it's like very different language you use it's like more more casual when you

00:21:18.611 --> 00:21:20.311
describe it to a friend it's like more,

00:21:20.971 --> 00:21:27.471
simple and straightforward it's like easier to see communicate to them in a

00:21:27.471 --> 00:21:30.931
way that's you know what their reaction is going to be and you're not really

00:21:30.931 --> 00:21:32.851
thinking about it as hard.

00:21:35.051 --> 00:21:38.911
Do you agree with any of that i absolutely

00:21:38.911 --> 00:21:41.871
i mean i think if you if you look at different

00:21:41.871 --> 00:21:44.991
sectors you know a lot of the service sector

00:21:44.991 --> 00:21:48.271
and particularly actually marketing services are very

00:21:48.271 --> 00:21:51.171
testimonial driven so a lot of agencies will have

00:21:51.171 --> 00:21:54.271
a lot of testimonials that's mainly because their product's

00:21:54.271 --> 00:21:57.531
not very tangible you know we're going to do marketing for you it's going to

00:21:57.531 --> 00:22:02.031
you know make your messaging better how do you really feel that as a product

00:22:02.031 --> 00:22:06.831
so you've got to you know explain it in the context of a previous client um

00:22:06.831 --> 00:22:12.171
but we work with a lot of companies that make physical products and there it's much harder,

00:22:13.017 --> 00:22:18.097
And the issue is, is actually getting a customer to publicly endorse you is

00:22:18.097 --> 00:22:20.877
really difficult. I mean, that's a huge commitment from that customer.

00:22:21.757 --> 00:22:27.137
And, you know, it's a very time-consuming process to make them feel that it

00:22:27.137 --> 00:22:29.197
benefits them as well as you.

00:22:29.357 --> 00:22:34.397
So what you need to do is you need to allocate a lot of time and a lot of resources to do that.

00:22:34.537 --> 00:22:38.837
And not everybody does. Not everybody wants to spend that much of their marketing budget on it.

00:22:38.837 --> 00:22:43.957
But if you do it it's incredibly compelling because as you say that the the

00:22:43.957 --> 00:22:48.957
person who is providing that endorsement is going to speak in the same language

00:22:48.957 --> 00:22:50.497
as your potential customers,

00:22:51.317 --> 00:22:55.577
people you know want to know that someone who's like them was successful because

00:22:55.577 --> 00:23:00.077
they bought that particular product or service so to me it's super important

00:23:00.077 --> 00:23:04.597
i mean actually you know this was probably one of the ultimate testimonial thing

00:23:04.597 --> 00:23:09.957
that you know examples i sat on a call today we We were talking to a new division of a client.

00:23:10.157 --> 00:23:12.657
We work with a big enterprise client, so we've got lots of divisions.

00:23:13.437 --> 00:23:17.597
And one of our team was just describing this most amazing project.

00:23:18.117 --> 00:23:22.397
And he was describing in detail that he'd run it, and he was talking about how

00:23:22.397 --> 00:23:25.237
he'd done it and what it did and how it worked and the rest of it.

00:23:26.097 --> 00:23:30.257
And it was absolutely compelling. But what made it really compelling was it

00:23:30.257 --> 00:23:34.097
was actually a case study from the same company. So the people we were talking

00:23:34.097 --> 00:23:36.677
to could pick up that phone internally or send an internal email,

00:23:36.817 --> 00:23:39.037
talk directly to the person we work with.

00:23:39.257 --> 00:23:45.777
So as we pitched, there was no way that our associate director could do anything

00:23:45.777 --> 00:23:47.217
other than tell the absolute truth.

00:23:47.577 --> 00:23:51.877
And the client knew that. And the fact they can easily fact check,

00:23:51.937 --> 00:23:56.397
it just made this case study compelling because it worked. It was a great story.

00:23:56.477 --> 00:23:57.737
It was a very positive project. checks.

00:23:58.097 --> 00:24:02.997
And I think that, you know, the fact we had to be honest and everybody knew

00:24:02.997 --> 00:24:05.497
we had to be honest, made it even more compelling.

00:24:05.597 --> 00:24:09.377
So the honesty made it, you know, super compelling.

00:24:10.577 --> 00:24:14.837
So this was a very large company you were working with, and then you worked

00:24:14.837 --> 00:24:19.517
with one division and got a case study and then went somewhere else and showed it to them?

00:24:20.257 --> 00:24:24.177
Absolutely. So yeah, it's a global company. It's got divisions all around the world.

00:24:24.177 --> 00:24:27.417
And yeah we took a case study from someone

00:24:27.417 --> 00:24:30.537
who i pretty much guarantee nobody on the call actually knew

00:24:30.537 --> 00:24:33.737
personally and presented it to a different division

00:24:33.737 --> 00:24:36.617
but it really showed them you know how

00:24:36.617 --> 00:24:39.617
we could work with them and of course you know the great thing about that case study is

00:24:39.617 --> 00:24:42.337
it also covered all the issues about how they had

00:24:42.337 --> 00:24:45.137
internal processes and how we had to work with those and so

00:24:45.137 --> 00:24:49.637
they immediately knew that we could navigate those internal processes so you

00:24:49.637 --> 00:24:54.077
know all of it was was really valuable but to me the compelling thing was we

00:24:54.077 --> 00:24:59.857
absolutely had to be truthful and so anything we said they they could validate

00:24:59.857 --> 00:25:02.857
so we we gave them you know the good and the bad,

00:25:03.617 --> 00:25:07.297
and hopefully it's one we haven't found out if we've won that pitch yet but,

00:25:07.857 --> 00:25:11.517
hopefully it's something that will actually contribute to us winning that business.

00:25:12.459 --> 00:25:20.079
Okay. So that's an interesting study on how knowing that your claims are going

00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:25.639
to be under very high scrutiny and fact check can change the culture of the team.

00:25:25.719 --> 00:25:29.419
Not that your team didn't care about honesty to begin with. It's just making

00:25:29.419 --> 00:25:31.759
everybody a little bit more self-conscious, right?

00:25:32.499 --> 00:25:37.439
Yeah, absolutely. But I think, you know, the reality is, is that in the way

00:25:37.439 --> 00:25:40.739
we're connected today, there's always a good chance, particularly through LinkedIn,

00:25:40.819 --> 00:25:45.019
that someone has a connection to the case study you're presenting.

00:25:45.679 --> 00:25:49.659
So case studies are compelling, but you've always got to think there's a really

00:25:49.659 --> 00:25:53.119
good chance that someone might know someone on LinkedIn who then knows the person

00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:54.099
we did the case study with.

00:25:54.259 --> 00:25:58.459
So when you're pitching, you actually, with case studies, you really need to be truthful.

00:25:58.859 --> 00:26:02.659
And I don't think it's any different from, you know, facts that can be validated.

00:26:02.719 --> 00:26:05.239
People can validate case studies relatively easily.

00:26:06.159 --> 00:26:11.719
And this means that most case studies are actually quite truthful because ultimately

00:26:11.719 --> 00:26:15.539
if you don't tell the truth, you're not going to, you're not going to be successful.

00:26:15.719 --> 00:26:18.399
You're going to be found out. And then you'll start pulling that case study

00:26:18.399 --> 00:26:20.999
from your website and it all gets very horrible.

00:26:21.639 --> 00:26:26.159
And I think this is the importance of being as truthful as you can.

00:26:26.939 --> 00:26:30.759
Is that ultimately there are consequences for not being truthful.

00:26:30.959 --> 00:26:33.039
Whether it's intentional or not, there are consequences.

00:26:33.539 --> 00:26:38.259
And you've just got to remember that any short-term benefit you get is almost

00:26:38.259 --> 00:26:42.699
certainly less than the long-term pain you'll suffer from the consequences of,

00:26:42.719 --> 00:26:46.579
you know, whether it's inadvertent or not, putting in something that's not entirely true.

00:26:47.159 --> 00:26:54.019
Okay. And you mentioned that you've created,

00:26:54.339 --> 00:27:07.119
or I guess you mentioned that your team has gone out to get testimonials from previous customers.

00:27:07.199 --> 00:27:10.599
And in this B2B, very, very technical

00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:15.819
landscape, it's a whole project that you have to invest money in.

00:27:15.819 --> 00:27:19.459
And so how do you, like as a business owner,

00:27:19.579 --> 00:27:27.039
navigate how much to invest in, you know, collecting case studies and how have you,

00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:34.559
you know, oriented your team and your priorities around making sure that you're

00:27:34.559 --> 00:27:37.579
getting those and incorporating them into your marketing?

00:27:38.439 --> 00:27:43.599
So that's a great question. If we look at Napier, we actually don't have a case study budget.

00:27:44.199 --> 00:27:48.719
And we have a rule that wherever we can get a case study, we want to get a case

00:27:48.719 --> 00:27:50.519
study. We'll spend the time to do that.

00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:53.279
Because they are so powerful, they're so important.

00:27:53.899 --> 00:27:59.099
And they're also important for clients as well. I mean, clients want to be part of our case studies.

00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:03.939
They want to be showcased as these are some of the best projects we've worked on.

00:28:04.299 --> 00:28:08.559
So we do that as much as possible. Obviously, there are some companies who won't

00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:11.819
let us use their name publicly. That's fine. That's their policy.

00:28:12.756 --> 00:28:17.036
But the reality is, is the cost of getting a case study is tiny compared to

00:28:17.036 --> 00:28:18.056
the cost of doing the work.

00:28:18.416 --> 00:28:22.996
And I think what we see with, you know, some of our clients is that they're

00:28:22.996 --> 00:28:27.496
a little bit reluctant to put the effort in, and particularly when they get told no.

00:28:27.676 --> 00:28:31.996
And I think that's important, is when you're trying to create case studies,

00:28:32.116 --> 00:28:35.876
and you're talking to customers, and you're asking them if they'll give you

00:28:35.876 --> 00:28:39.716
a case study, you'll get a lot of no's, and you'll also get a lot of yeses that

00:28:39.716 --> 00:28:40.856
don't turn into case studies.

00:28:40.856 --> 00:28:44.016
And there's all sorts of things that potentially along

00:28:44.016 --> 00:28:46.736
the road can stop you know the case study

00:28:46.736 --> 00:28:49.836
actually happening approvals product issues you

00:28:49.836 --> 00:28:53.396
know let's be honest everybody has issues with their product from time to time

00:28:53.396 --> 00:28:58.336
you may have a customer who's very keen to do a case study and then hits a problem

00:28:58.336 --> 00:29:01.776
because you've got an issue with delivery or whatever and that case study goes

00:29:01.776 --> 00:29:06.636
on ice so it is a numbers game and that's important but i think once you've

00:29:06.636 --> 00:29:08.576
got those case studies, you want to share them.

00:29:09.016 --> 00:29:13.976
And for me, I don't find it very difficult. I find it really easy because actually

00:29:13.976 --> 00:29:16.196
I'm talking about all the things I'm really excited about.

00:29:16.496 --> 00:29:20.816
The case studies are all the bits where I go, this is why I'm running an agency.

00:29:21.536 --> 00:29:25.676
I've had Chris, I've had Ed, I've had anybody else and they've done this project.

00:29:25.856 --> 00:29:29.336
It's been amazing and the clients loved it and it's all been great.

00:29:29.436 --> 00:29:31.996
So to me, talking about case studies is the easy thing.

00:29:32.256 --> 00:29:35.376
I never never have a problem with that and equally you

00:29:35.376 --> 00:29:38.976
know if we're doing email campaigns if we're doing social anything else

00:29:38.976 --> 00:29:41.816
you know we want to get those case studies in partly because we

00:29:41.816 --> 00:29:45.156
know they help but mainly because we're actually really proud of them um

00:29:45.156 --> 00:29:48.156
so i think i think that's easy the the difficult

00:29:48.156 --> 00:29:51.996
bit is really taking the knockbacks okay okay

00:29:51.996 --> 00:29:54.836
another thing that i'd like

00:29:54.836 --> 00:29:58.596
to tackle a little bit is as you know

00:29:58.596 --> 00:30:03.396
as a marketer suppose you usually unintentionally

00:30:03.396 --> 00:30:08.896
but make a mistake or you miss you you find out that one of your claims is misleading

00:30:08.896 --> 00:30:14.156
like have you ever come across that scenario like with your business or any

00:30:14.156 --> 00:30:18.696
of the businesses you've had as clients and then like how do you handle that

00:30:18.696 --> 00:30:20.116
once you've made that kind of mistake.

00:30:20.716 --> 00:30:23.736
That that's a great question and i mean

00:30:23.736 --> 00:30:26.636
i haven't really seen a major issue with that with any of our clients

00:30:26.636 --> 00:30:30.796
i have with with some other companies in the industry and actually even put

00:30:30.796 --> 00:30:35.056
in a a complaint to one of the regulators in the uk about a competitor who was

00:30:35.056 --> 00:30:40.036
issuing a statement which to be fair when they started the campaign was true

00:30:40.036 --> 00:30:44.136
but two years later was no longer true so i've seen it happen,

00:30:44.236 --> 00:30:49.916
I always believe that when you look at PR or marketing and there's a problem,

00:30:50.036 --> 00:30:52.836
the best PR or marketing advice is fix the problem.

00:30:53.834 --> 00:30:56.594
Don't try and hide the problem. Don't try and market your way out of it.

00:30:56.634 --> 00:30:59.814
Just fix the problem. If you've made a mistake, say you've made a mistake.

00:31:00.974 --> 00:31:06.554
It's really that simple. So if you're running a campaign and you realize that

00:31:06.554 --> 00:31:11.554
it's not true, you might say, we have the fastest, the best,

00:31:11.594 --> 00:31:13.174
the biggest, the whatever product,

00:31:13.414 --> 00:31:17.474
and then you find out a competitor has actually leapfrogged you, just stop the campaign.

00:31:18.154 --> 00:31:21.274
Just be honest. If people ask you, why were you saying that?

00:31:21.354 --> 00:31:26.614
We've made a mistake. You know, don't try and pretend that it's anything other

00:31:26.614 --> 00:31:28.534
than an error and just move on.

00:31:28.714 --> 00:31:31.914
And this really comes down to the trust issue.

00:31:32.334 --> 00:31:35.894
And I believe trust is one of the most important things in marketing.

00:31:36.214 --> 00:31:39.674
And if you can build trust, you build that relationship with the customer.

00:31:39.734 --> 00:31:43.794
And ultimately you build that long-term relationship that's going to be far

00:31:43.794 --> 00:31:45.374
more profitable than a short-term sale.

00:31:45.834 --> 00:31:48.694
So I think building trust is important. important

00:31:48.694 --> 00:31:52.394
and there's been numerous studies that say if

00:31:52.394 --> 00:31:55.234
you make a mistake and own up to it you can actually build

00:31:55.234 --> 00:31:58.514
more trust than if you don't make the mistake in the first place so you

00:31:58.514 --> 00:32:01.314
know i don't think worry about making the mistake and i

00:32:01.314 --> 00:32:04.234
don't think worry about apologizing just be right out there

00:32:04.234 --> 00:32:08.334
and go we're an honest company and we messed up this time we're not going to

00:32:08.334 --> 00:32:13.654
do it again and and that makes a huge difference in terms of building a reputation

00:32:13.654 --> 00:32:18.654
and making people believe that you are honest and you are somebody who really

00:32:18.654 --> 00:32:22.734
cares about the truth in marketing rather than just trying to get a quick buck.

00:32:24.474 --> 00:32:28.974
Okay, that makes a lot of sense. I think that applies to a lot of things.

00:32:29.894 --> 00:32:33.914
You know, one thing I'd like to dig into a little bit is like.

00:32:35.758 --> 00:32:41.478
And I mean, we talked about this a bit, like what are some scenarios where people

00:32:41.478 --> 00:32:43.358
make less than accurate claims?

00:32:43.438 --> 00:32:45.638
I guess I want to dig into that a little bit more.

00:32:45.778 --> 00:32:53.578
Like, what are some of the factors that you think happen in B2B companies that

00:32:53.578 --> 00:32:56.018
then lead people to making,

00:32:56.258 --> 00:33:04.278
you know, oftentimes unintentionally, but like marketing claims that are not completely true?

00:33:05.178 --> 00:33:09.578
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I think, you know, every situation is slightly different.

00:33:10.238 --> 00:33:14.478
But obviously, pressure is probably the main thing that causes these problems.

00:33:15.138 --> 00:33:19.718
And it's either pressure to really push a product that's super important for

00:33:19.718 --> 00:33:24.818
the company, or it's pressure to get campaigns created in less time than you

00:33:24.818 --> 00:33:27.078
really have, or you really need, sorry.

00:33:27.458 --> 00:33:32.018
So I think, you know, quite often, pressure causes people to do that.

00:33:32.058 --> 00:33:34.978
That's not to say, you know you have to remove pressure that

00:33:34.978 --> 00:33:37.918
that clearly isn't something you can do in in a business environment

00:33:37.918 --> 00:33:40.678
but i think you know marketers need to be

00:33:40.678 --> 00:33:43.858
mindful that where there is pressure there's more

00:33:43.858 --> 00:33:49.478
chance of making a mistake or there's more chance of going yeah this isn't really

00:33:49.478 --> 00:33:53.718
true but let's go for it we'll give it a go you know see if anyone notices and

00:33:53.718 --> 00:33:57.158
so i think in those situations marketers need to be a little bit more mindful

00:33:57.158 --> 00:34:02.498
and think about you know is this really the right thing for the company in the long term.

00:34:02.878 --> 00:34:08.558
And to me, we've mentioned this two or three times, but the key thing about

00:34:08.558 --> 00:34:11.258
truthfulness is building long-term success.

00:34:11.958 --> 00:34:15.938
And it's all about the long term. So I think if you're thinking long-term rather

00:34:15.938 --> 00:34:18.898
than short-term, the duration of the campaign or the next year,

00:34:19.018 --> 00:34:22.318
I think you're much less likely to make those mistakes.

00:34:23.380 --> 00:34:26.940
Okay. So how can you kind of ground yourself,

00:34:27.200 --> 00:34:32.160
you know, let's say as a marketing leader in the long term, how do you make

00:34:32.160 --> 00:34:39.300
that like part of your like day to day or month to month kind of considerations?

00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:43.680
And how do you integrate that kind of long term thinking into your team?

00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:49.160
Yeah. And that's a real challenge when you get to the enterprise, I think.

00:34:49.720 --> 00:34:56.920
If you look at CMOs in the enterprise, they typically have a shorter tenure than CEOs.

00:34:57.460 --> 00:35:01.900
And so they're actually pressured quite a lot. The quarterly result really matters.

00:35:02.640 --> 00:35:05.080
And it's really difficult. You've got to be good.

00:35:06.120 --> 00:35:08.760
It's not an easy thing. You've got all these short-term pressures,

00:35:08.900 --> 00:35:11.000
but you've got to think about the long term.

00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:13.880
I think it's very different when you get to smaller companies.

00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:15.860
Typically, people stay there a lot longer.

00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:18.980
And I think, you know, if you're in a smaller, mid-sized company,

00:35:19.680 --> 00:35:23.620
their people really do want the company to be successful long term.

00:35:24.160 --> 00:35:27.480
And they really do think about the long term rather than the short term.

00:35:27.820 --> 00:35:32.100
You know, you can have situations where the business is under pressure and everything,

00:35:32.260 --> 00:35:34.040
you know, shrinks to a shorter term.

00:35:34.380 --> 00:35:38.680
But I think people want to, you know, want to really do a good job generally.

00:35:38.680 --> 00:35:43.220
I, you know, whether they're pressured as a CMO in an enterprise and they feel,

00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:47.660
you know, I'm judged by my quarterly results or whether they're in a smaller

00:35:47.660 --> 00:35:50.400
company they've been with for years and hope to, you know, complete their career

00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:52.580
there, people want to do the right thing.

00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:57.280
And I think it's a matter of just taking a breath, taking some time and,

00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:01.240
you know, really having that as a part of your checklist in your campaign.

00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:04.860
Is this going to, you know, help the company's reputation in the long term?

00:36:05.798 --> 00:36:13.238
Okay, that makes sense. And so I would like to kind of go step by step now,

00:36:13.378 --> 00:36:17.338
like, if let's say you're talking to a B2B marketing leader,

00:36:17.418 --> 00:36:26.258
and they want to ensure that themselves and their team and all of their marketing

00:36:26.258 --> 00:36:28.558
claims are accurate and truthful,

00:36:28.758 --> 00:36:34.118
then step by step, what would you have them do in order to start incorporating that?

00:36:34.958 --> 00:36:41.678
That's a great question. I think it's hard to have a standard five-step process or whatever.

00:36:41.998 --> 00:36:47.058
But I think the first step is before you actually start a campaign,

00:36:47.118 --> 00:36:48.238
you need to learn about the product.

00:36:48.638 --> 00:36:52.178
And in some industries, that's not too difficult. In other industries that are

00:36:52.178 --> 00:36:54.418
highly technical, that might be actually quite a challenge.

00:36:54.918 --> 00:36:58.478
So get the people who really understand the product, the engineers and the product

00:36:58.478 --> 00:37:00.678
managers involved in briefing you.

00:37:01.638 --> 00:37:06.238
Understand the product. But then build that campaign with that thought for the long term.

00:37:06.938 --> 00:37:11.518
Then I would absolutely get people who are outside of the campaign to look at the campaign.

00:37:12.038 --> 00:37:15.518
So that might be other people in the marketing team who are not working on this

00:37:15.518 --> 00:37:18.118
particular project, or it might be people outside of the marketing team.

00:37:18.218 --> 00:37:22.338
But get them to look at it and say, the way you said that, that sounds like

00:37:22.338 --> 00:37:24.538
this, which doesn't really feel quite right.

00:37:24.678 --> 00:37:30.098
So sometimes it's the nuance of how you say things. and that's a problem because

00:37:30.098 --> 00:37:34.698
typically when people see those issues it's not just that the claim you make

00:37:34.698 --> 00:37:39.338
may be misleading but it's probably not very clear and therefore it's probably not very effective.

00:37:40.358 --> 00:37:43.778
So I think, you know, getting people outside to come and give a second opinion.

00:37:44.038 --> 00:37:47.078
And then lastly, of course, you know, get someone to fact check it.

00:37:47.238 --> 00:37:51.758
And in our world where you do have, you know, very technical claims being made,

00:37:51.878 --> 00:37:55.378
you know, quite often that needs an engineer to be able to actually go and understand

00:37:55.378 --> 00:38:00.398
what the claim means and then say yes or no as to whether that's entirely truthful.

00:38:00.578 --> 00:38:05.018
So I think make sure, you know, that that last stage is get someone to fact

00:38:05.018 --> 00:38:06.958
check it who really understands the product. it.

00:38:07.178 --> 00:38:14.258
And I think if you do that, you know, you're very much going to eliminate these accidental claims.

00:38:14.718 --> 00:38:18.458
I think if you're, you know, somebody who decides we're going to go out,

00:38:18.518 --> 00:38:21.838
we're going to make these claims, we actually don't care whether they're truthful or not.

00:38:22.178 --> 00:38:25.778
I don't have a step-by-step process for you to not do that. You're going to do it, whatever I say.

00:38:27.698 --> 00:38:34.538
Yeah. So your agency does marketing for other tech companies. That's correct.

00:38:35.078 --> 00:38:40.078
That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. So when you're working with clients,

00:38:40.618 --> 00:38:45.798
you essentially have to learn all about their businesses like without,

00:38:45.998 --> 00:38:49.378
you know, having you're starting from scratch each time as opposed to being,

00:38:49.418 --> 00:38:52.658
you know, some full time employee who's worked there for years.

00:38:52.818 --> 00:38:58.258
So I would imagine that it's a lot more challenging to get to know the technical

00:38:58.258 --> 00:39:02.158
specifications and nuances and then accurately communicate that.

00:39:02.158 --> 00:39:05.518
It yeah i i mean to be fair there

00:39:05.518 --> 00:39:08.218
is an issue although if you look at you know some of

00:39:08.218 --> 00:39:11.338
the account managers we have you know they've been working with

00:39:11.338 --> 00:39:15.318
clients for longer than the marketing teams have we tend to have teams that

00:39:15.318 --> 00:39:19.358
stay for a long time at napier it's very important for us that people stay because

00:39:19.358 --> 00:39:23.918
we need them to learn the clients so it is an issue but it's not as big as you

00:39:23.918 --> 00:39:29.258
think but the other thing is you know i i'm an engineer i i've designed electronic

00:39:29.498 --> 00:39:33.098
circuits, I've helped people design complex circuits, I've done technical support.

00:39:33.358 --> 00:39:35.858
You know, I'm an engineer, and I know...

00:39:36.730 --> 00:39:40.810
That there's a huge amount of things that I cannot understand that are way too

00:39:40.810 --> 00:39:41.990
technical for me to understand.

00:39:42.190 --> 00:39:45.870
And you need an expert. And so one of the things I'm forever banging on about

00:39:45.870 --> 00:39:51.070
is make sure you get the expert in the client to really help you when you create campaigns.

00:39:51.490 --> 00:39:55.310
And that expert is not somebody who's in marketing, that expert is somebody who's in engineering.

00:39:55.810 --> 00:39:59.930
And to me, that's really important. And actually, if we look at our clients,

00:40:00.450 --> 00:40:02.650
they really care about getting the claims right.

00:40:03.110 --> 00:40:06.910
And they care about getting the claims right, right? Because they know that

00:40:06.910 --> 00:40:10.770
if you get them wrong and you mislead people, that's a bad thing.

00:40:10.910 --> 00:40:12.690
But also these guys are smart.

00:40:12.950 --> 00:40:16.910
They know that, you know, if you're getting claims wrong, you'll also not actually

00:40:16.910 --> 00:40:18.610
claim the full capabilities of the product.

00:40:18.870 --> 00:40:22.270
You'll miss out on an opportunity to highlight some benefits.

00:40:22.430 --> 00:40:26.430
So they really care about making sure we get the details right.

00:40:26.670 --> 00:40:31.710
And we work across Europe and, you know, Germany particularly is a very engineering-driven

00:40:31.710 --> 00:40:33.090
culture. It's very technical.

00:40:33.610 --> 00:40:38.530
Believe me, if you do anything in Germany that is not absolutely technically

00:40:38.530 --> 00:40:40.390
correct, people will call you out on it.

00:40:40.710 --> 00:40:44.150
And companies don't want that. Companies are not stupid. They don't want to

00:40:44.150 --> 00:40:49.590
be seen as communicating in a way that either makes them feel untruthful or

00:40:49.590 --> 00:40:51.050
makes them feel a little bit dumb.

00:40:51.450 --> 00:40:55.330
And so our clients are great. They want to help us. They give us access to,

00:40:55.450 --> 00:40:59.170
I mean, literally some of the smartest people in the world in their sectors

00:40:59.170 --> 00:41:05.710
and that works really well for us okay so as you're at what point in the,

00:41:06.190 --> 00:41:09.530
either stages of business negotiation

00:41:09.530 --> 00:41:15.270
or after you've onboarded client do you start requesting hey can i work with

00:41:15.270 --> 00:41:20.450
you know your your lead engineer who's like really deeply understands this product

00:41:20.450 --> 00:41:25.230
or like how do you go about negotiating making sure that they're incorporated

00:41:25.230 --> 00:41:27.630
right into the team and like integrating their advice.

00:41:28.782 --> 00:41:33.322
I mean, ultimately it's, it's not a negotiation. If clients want us to do our

00:41:33.322 --> 00:41:36.722
best work, they need to give us access to the people who have that technical expertise.

00:41:37.362 --> 00:41:42.522
Um, and that's true of, you know, any agency, um, in our sector.

00:41:42.822 --> 00:41:47.382
So we're really upfront about it. Uh, and we're very much, you know,

00:41:47.382 --> 00:41:50.102
there to say, this is how we work.

00:41:50.582 --> 00:41:53.662
This is what we need. You know, if you want us to create some content,

00:41:53.842 --> 00:41:55.862
this is who we're going to need to be involved.

00:41:56.682 --> 00:42:01.362
And like I say, it's non-negotiation. And generally speaking, from the client side,

00:42:01.622 --> 00:42:05.942
it's non-negotiation either because they know their products are really technical

00:42:05.942 --> 00:42:11.262
and they want those technical experts to be involved to make sure that they

00:42:11.262 --> 00:42:12.982
communicate in the best,

00:42:12.982 --> 00:42:18.002
most positive way they can and build that long-term trust that everybody's looking for.

00:42:18.482 --> 00:42:20.722
Mm-hmm. Okay. That makes sense.

00:42:21.462 --> 00:42:30.562
And yeah, I guess the other piece to this is like, Like, within your marketing team,

00:42:30.882 --> 00:42:36.922
like, how do you as a leader, like, encourage or more than encourage,

00:42:37.122 --> 00:42:41.602
but, like, also, like, build the system so that everybody is thinking about

00:42:41.602 --> 00:42:44.062
honest communication at all times?

00:42:44.062 --> 00:42:48.982
And like, do you have any like checks and balances, you know,

00:42:48.982 --> 00:42:57.702
built in to where people are independently evaluating whether or not what they're saying is accurate?

00:42:58.562 --> 00:43:04.502
I mean, that's a great question. So, you know, we talk about our values and

00:43:04.502 --> 00:43:08.422
we actually care about our values. It's not just something we put on a poster on the wall.

00:43:08.622 --> 00:43:11.702
And one of our most important values is openness and transparency.

00:43:12.262 --> 00:43:16.142
And you'll hear people, you know, just going openness and transparency in the office.

00:43:16.382 --> 00:43:22.622
And it's very important that everyone, you know, doesn't try and hide things. They're very open.

00:43:24.137 --> 00:43:28.037
But equally, I'm not going to say we're going to go in and fact check deeply

00:43:28.037 --> 00:43:31.237
technical claims for all our clients, because we don't have those experts.

00:43:31.577 --> 00:43:35.097
So it's about process, not necessarily about what we do.

00:43:35.437 --> 00:43:41.297
And as I say, that process, and when we create content, we actually have a fairly

00:43:41.297 --> 00:43:45.357
formal process where we talk to the client, we work out what we're going to

00:43:45.357 --> 00:43:47.357
do, we then get a technical briefing,

00:43:47.677 --> 00:43:52.857
we then generate a briefing sheet, which to a large extent is simply replicating

00:43:52.857 --> 00:43:56.197
what we're told in the briefing call, but we actually get it written down.

00:43:56.297 --> 00:43:57.977
That briefing sheet can then be checked.

00:43:58.197 --> 00:44:02.557
So before we start creating the content, we've actually checked that the source

00:44:02.557 --> 00:44:08.597
material that we're using, you know, we've understood and we've actually expressed in a correct way.

00:44:08.937 --> 00:44:12.877
And then if that works, then generally speaking, the generation of whatever

00:44:12.877 --> 00:44:16.797
content it is, whether it's a blog post or an article or social media post,

00:44:16.957 --> 00:44:22.597
then that becomes much easier because that briefing sheet absolutely crystallizes it.

00:44:22.617 --> 00:44:26.337
It crystallizes it in the mind of the people who are actually running the project.

00:44:26.417 --> 00:44:29.177
This is not something written by, you know, people outside of the project.

00:44:29.237 --> 00:44:31.837
This is written by the people who are doing the project.

00:44:31.897 --> 00:44:35.877
So they've got to get it right before they can go and actually start creating things.

00:44:36.397 --> 00:44:40.417
And I think again, you know, and I'm sure I've said it before in this discussion,

00:44:40.917 --> 00:44:42.817
you know, it's important to take a breath.

00:44:43.477 --> 00:44:46.817
And, you know, I love the title of your podcast because Because I think it's

00:44:46.817 --> 00:44:48.397
very important to be mindful in B2B.

00:44:48.537 --> 00:44:52.517
You know, you mustn't just rush in and do stuff, which is always the temptation,

00:44:52.717 --> 00:44:53.437
particularly for agencies.

00:44:53.837 --> 00:44:56.577
You know, you want to produce things that clients feel good about.

00:44:56.977 --> 00:44:58.757
But that's normally a terrible strategy.

00:44:59.157 --> 00:45:03.117
What you want to do is you actually want to think. And it doesn't have to be,

00:45:03.137 --> 00:45:06.317
you know, hours or days. It can be relatively short period, a couple of breaths.

00:45:06.697 --> 00:45:10.517
Just make sure you're doing something right. And I think that's super important

00:45:10.517 --> 00:45:14.797
to be mindful as you go into the start of any project. project.

00:45:15.577 --> 00:45:19.837
Yeah. I love your idea of, I'm sure you weren't the first person to do it,

00:45:19.857 --> 00:45:23.097
but it's the first time I've heard of it, of doing this like briefing sheet

00:45:23.097 --> 00:45:25.157
from the interview of the technical expert.

00:45:25.397 --> 00:45:29.497
And that's the source of truth that everybody goes to, everybody fact checks,

00:45:29.637 --> 00:45:32.777
everybody refers back to in all of the marketing campaigns.

00:45:33.737 --> 00:45:36.977
Yeah. And I mean, sometimes you have the clients say, we want to write the briefing

00:45:36.977 --> 00:45:38.397
sheet and they want to do that.

00:45:38.737 --> 00:45:41.657
That's fine. they'll give us the clear information in a form that's

00:45:41.657 --> 00:45:46.397
very structured so we we can use it but but if there's any clients listening

00:45:46.397 --> 00:45:51.037
to this podcast actually that's not the best way to do it the very best way

00:45:51.037 --> 00:45:55.297
is to give us a verbal briefing and then get us to write that briefing sheet

00:45:55.297 --> 00:46:00.697
because that shows that we as the agency have understood what your expert has said,

00:46:01.515 --> 00:46:03.915
Because we're having to write it effectively in our own words.

00:46:04.395 --> 00:46:10.335
And to me, that's a super effective way of ultimately training us and getting

00:46:10.335 --> 00:46:15.095
us to the point where we are in a position to be able to be really clear, really compelling,

00:46:15.195 --> 00:46:17.795
and also really accurate, which matters.

00:46:18.615 --> 00:46:22.095
Okay. And how long is this brief? Is it just one page?

00:46:23.115 --> 00:46:27.055
That's a great question. So it varies. that it's

00:46:27.055 --> 00:46:30.955
about a two-page document normally but it

00:46:30.955 --> 00:46:34.695
varies in terms of what you're trying to achieve how technical

00:46:34.695 --> 00:46:38.695
it is what information you need and you can literally get briefing sheets that

00:46:38.695 --> 00:46:43.115
are longer than the final piece of content without any problem at all and that's

00:46:43.115 --> 00:46:47.275
great and actually what that helps us do generally is to create different versions

00:46:47.275 --> 00:46:50.915
of the content so you might create a very long briefing sheet that's for a technical

00:46:50.915 --> 00:46:53.695
article somebody writes that it gets published,

00:46:53.775 --> 00:46:56.395
but then you can use that briefing sheet to create a blog post or,

00:46:56.435 --> 00:46:57.955
you know, other content as well.

00:46:58.035 --> 00:47:03.675
So I think, you know, the length of the briefing sheet, it's what it needs to be.

00:47:03.735 --> 00:47:07.215
It doesn't have to be the longer, the better, but certainly I think trying to

00:47:07.215 --> 00:47:08.495
cut corners doesn't work either.

00:47:08.775 --> 00:47:12.715
I'm capturing everything you need and being clear about it is really important.

00:47:13.035 --> 00:47:15.435
And again, it comes back to clarity. You know, I think a lot of.

00:47:16.341 --> 00:47:19.841
A lot of issue around truthfulness is around lack of clarity.

00:47:20.321 --> 00:47:25.541
And ultimately, lack of clarity in marketing, generally speaking, is less effective.

00:47:26.021 --> 00:47:32.141
The clearest, most definite marketing messages cut through, and the woolly,

00:47:32.241 --> 00:47:35.521
vague, fuzzy ones really just don't get any attention at all.

00:47:35.601 --> 00:47:39.941
So getting that clarity is important, not only to make sure you're accurate,

00:47:40.121 --> 00:47:43.241
but also to make sure that you can really create compelling content.

00:47:43.941 --> 00:47:48.981
Okay, that makes sense. All right. I love this conversation.

00:47:49.181 --> 00:47:53.701
Thank you so much, Mike. And just as we're wrapping up, I'd just like to shine

00:47:53.701 --> 00:47:56.841
a spotlight on you. So are there projects you're working on?

00:47:57.001 --> 00:48:00.781
Are there places that people should get in touch with you or get in touch with your company?

00:48:02.481 --> 00:48:06.581
Yeah, so I mean, people are very welcome to get in touch with the company.

00:48:06.681 --> 00:48:11.281
The company's website address is napierb2b.com, N-A-P-I-E-R,

00:48:11.481 --> 00:48:14.641
B, the number two, the letter B, .com, obviously.

00:48:15.341 --> 00:48:20.201
We're an interesting company. Actually, interestingly, I'm no longer the owner

00:48:20.201 --> 00:48:21.921
of the company. The employees own the company.

00:48:22.361 --> 00:48:26.421
So if you're a marketer, you want to come to work for a company where you're

00:48:26.421 --> 00:48:30.161
actually the boss of the boss, come to Napier. That'd be great.

00:48:30.781 --> 00:48:34.241
I also, as people will have gathered, if they've got this far and listened to

00:48:34.241 --> 00:48:38.521
me for this long, I love talking about marketing. I'm very happy to connect with anybody.

00:48:38.921 --> 00:48:41.181
You know, love talking to people who are new in the industry.

00:48:41.601 --> 00:48:44.681
I think it's great for people to come in. So anybody new in the industry or

00:48:44.681 --> 00:48:47.881
thinking about coming into marketing, love to talk to you as well as people

00:48:47.881 --> 00:48:51.001
who, you know, have been working in the industry for a long time.

00:48:51.241 --> 00:48:55.181
You can obviously reach me on LinkedIn. I think that's the standard podcast answer.

00:48:55.901 --> 00:48:59.881
But actually, you know, if you want to contact me, the smart people will have worked out

00:48:59.961 --> 00:49:04.581
that my email address is mike at napierb2b.com so send me an email i will reply

00:49:04.581 --> 00:49:10.101
all right thank you so much mike for sharing all your advice well thank you

00:49:10.101 --> 00:49:12.541
so much for having me on the podcast i've really enjoyed it thanks kira.