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Safe Money Radio with Brad Pistole
Safe Money Radio host Brad Pistole is a nationally recognized Financial Professional who specializes in planning that protects principal from stock market volatility and creates guaranteed lifetime income. Listen here to receive insights from Brad and hear what he has to say regarding retirement income planning.
Safe Money Radio with Brad Pistole
American College of Financial Services (Horizons Conference) 2026: Part 2
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The most expensive retirement mistakes are rarely about picking the wrong stock. They usually come from blind spots: taxes you did not see coming, income tools you never learned, and assets you forgot to count. From the sold-out Horizons 2026 conference, I’m sharing Part 2 of a special interview series with four nationally known retirement planning voices: Jamie Hopkins, Dr. Wade Pfau, David McKnight, and Don Graves.
Jamie Hopkins explains why most people are visual learners and how clearer visuals can make retirement planning simpler and more actionable. We also dig into “pay yourself first” as a foundation for retirement income security, plus a surprisingly powerful idea for the next chapter of life: retirement as your chance to rebuild community on purpose instead of living inside the “accidental communities” created by school and work. He also shares practical ways he teaches his kids real money skills using modern tools and hands-on experiences.
Dr. Wade Pfau brings the conversation into advanced retirement tax planning, including how to think about Roth conversions through the lens of current income, spending needs, and lifetime tax rates. We talk about real-world “cliffs” like IRMAA Medicare premium surcharges and why paying the lowest lifetime tax can matter more than avoiding taxes today. David McKnight then walks through tax-free wealth planning concepts, including how an index universal life insurance policy may serve as a volatility buffer to help manage sequence-of-returns risk and provide additional long-term care options. Finally, Don Graves makes the case for housing wealth and reverse mortgages as a legitimate fourth bucket that can strengthen cash flow and create more tax-smart withdrawal choices.
Subscribe to the podcast, share this with someone nearing retirement, and leave a review with your biggest retirement tax question so we can address it next.
To learn more about Brad Pistole and the Ozark Retirement Group, please visit www.ozarksretirement.com
Why Market Risk Matters
SPEAKER_08Where the market goes up, where you go up. Where the market goes down.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to State Money Radio with your host, Brad Pistol. Brad is a retirement income and tax planning certified professional, primarily serving clients in the Midwest, but he's sought after nationally for his expertise in helping people secure their retirements. Mr. Pistol is a licensed life insurance professional in approximately 20 different states, and he specializes in working with people who are near retirement and those who have already retired with wealth management, income planning, and asset protection strategies using life, health, long-term care, and annuity insurance products. And now, here to talk with you about securing your retirement, it's your host, Brad Pistol.
Horizons Series And Guest Lineup
SPEAKER_06Well, hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you missed last week's show, you're gonna want to go to YouTube and type in Brad Pistol, Safe Money Radio. Make sure you listen to part one because this is a four-part show and series. I recently attended the American College Horizons event in 2026. It was sold out. Financial advisors and economists from all across the country were there, and I was blessed to be the person who got to interview many of the keynote speakers. And so there are 13 different interviews that we're sharing on the show, on radio, and on podcast. The first part was last week. This is part number two. And on today's show, we're going to be interviewing Jamie Hopkins, Dr. Wade Fowl, David McKnight, and Don Graves. So without further ado, let's jump right in with Jamie Hopkins. Jamie is a best-selling author, he's a financial services advocate. He's the chief wealth officer of WSFS and Braun Mahr Trust. He's the founder of FinServe Foundation from Braun Mahr, Pennsylvania. Jamie is an incredible person. I've interviewed him in the past. He's been on the show. I interviewed him at Horizons in 2025. He is a certified financial planner. He's a CHFC, a C O U, and an RICP. He taught in the RICP program. He was one of our planning specialists there who shared his time and his expertise and was a professor to me, so I was thankful to sit at his feet. And so I'm so honored to start off the show today with my good friend Jamie Hopkins. Let's listen to what he had to say. Well, here we
Jamie Hopkins On Visual Planning
SPEAKER_06are in the afternoon of day two at Horizons in your number two with the American College with I always like to say the Jamie Hopkins.
SPEAKER_05I appreciate that. Yeah. There are some other Jamie Hopkins out there, though.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, but there's only one the Jamie Hopkins. The author of the new book. Yeah. So we're gonna put this up here. We're gonna be talking about this some today. So tell everyone they want to know. You mean they see you all over the place. Every time I turn on any type of social media, there's Jamie somewhere. What what in the world do you do every day?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, well, the funny part is I don't do that much social media, but I am a little bit of everywhere. I think it's a very good example of kind of that flywheel. You do it, and people are like, How much do you post? I'm like, almost never. It's usually somebody else posting something that I did, and then I just reshare it or like it, and sometimes I don't. But uh yeah, my day job is I I run a decent sized wealth business. So we're about 400 people, about 97, 98 billion of AUM, AUA. But we are like an 85% trust business. So most of the time we're actually working with other financial advisors, family offices, RIAs on helping set up trusts for the wealth clients out there. And so that's the that's really the day job. Hopefully helping inspiring the team and getting out of their way. Uh, you mentioned uh before we hopped on, I'll I'll leave this one because a couple people have heard me say this before, but uh my son asked me what I do for work, and he said, Well, uh, aren't you the boss? I said, Well, it's kind of like this, right? Like, I'm the boss, but I work for you. And I was like, So, like, I run the house, but I really work for you. And he was like, Oh, that makes so much sense. Yeah. So that was a good way to explain it.
SPEAKER_06I like that. Well, I know I've seen from all the things you do, you've got a great team that you work with, and so that's awesome.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06So tell us about what inspired the new books. Again, we want to put this up here. I love this. Your retirement sketchbook. I know you've done a lot of writing and a lot of drawings and a lot of the stuff that you've posted before, and you did that in this book, which is very unique. So talk about it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I don't think there's anything else like it out there in our space. And hopefully more people adopt it and start using it. But the whole inspiration was that most people are visual learners. You know, a lot of the people watching your show are gonna be literally watching it because they like to see things. Yes. And when I asked rooms, like how many people are visual learners, you'd see like 80% of hands go up. And I just kept thinking, like, we're doing a disservice to our clients in this industry by not creating more visuals in the retirement space. And and it was kind of dumb luck in my own style. I just learned that writing, like and drawing these little pictures and charts, and I'd scribble them, and people engage with them. I did that when I was started at American College, and people used to joke, like an RACP, I would write on the screen and draw all over it. And I was one of the few people doing that back in like 2011. You know, you weren't really having that engagement on the screen, but I got an iPad, I'm drawing, I'm circling, I'm drawing out examples, and that kind of caught on. And so I wanted to take that and the content that I've had from the last 20 years around retirement planning and put it into kind of one piece. So uh I called up Bonnie Trickle, who's a great retirement expert too, and just said, Hey, you want to do this with me? Because I'd gotten stuck. I like outlined it, I wrote like 12 and actually drew them myself, yeah, and then just stopped for like nine months. And I was like, without an accountability partner and somebody helping drive me, I won't finish it. So got it uh up and out about a month and a half ago uh now. It's had a great reception. We hit USA Today top 10 and LA Times number three. We outsold a couple on the New York Times. We didn't get picked because there's kind of they have their like they pick famous people. So even though you call me the Jamie Hopkins, the New York Times still, I'm just a Jamie Hopkins to them.
SPEAKER_06Gotcha, gotcha. Well, one of the things I mean, I've already gone through and highlighted a lot of stuff. I ordered a few of the books for the office and I wanted to give to my clients. And I know this. So one of the things you talk about in here is a concept that people hear a lot, but they don't know what it means.
Pay Yourself First For Retirement
SPEAKER_06So you talk about number 44, pay yourself first. Yeah. Paying yourself first isn't selfish. In fact, it's the smartest way to make your future you get the retirement you deserve. What are you talking about? What does it mean when you pay yourself first?
SPEAKER_05Well, I think paying yourself first, the best visual analogy of this, since we want to be visual, is being on the airplane and write the masks come down, you're supposed to put it on yourself first. If you don't take care of yourself, you can't take care of anyone else. Great leaders, your own retirement. The other thing I always say is nobody else is saving for your retirement. Kids aren't saving for your retirement, your friends not saving for your retirement. If you don't do that and you don't take care of that, nobody else is gonna do it for you. So I think that's really important before you think about, you know, the next college for the kids or the grandkids or gifting something or buying something, take care of yourself first. Obviously, you could take that concept a lot broader. I think it's health, it's you know, making sure every once in a while you are doing something selfish for yourself, right? Where you're having enjoyment out of the money you're spending. I think all those concepts fall into that one.
SPEAKER_06We know yesterday we met in the lobby and you had been out taking care of yourself, you went on your run. I did. So you have to make the time, and it's so difficult, it's easy when you get to my advanced stage of life to go, okay, how do I have the time to go to the gym today? But you find the time. And back in my earlier days, I would always, no matter where I went, no matter what conference I was on, I would go run during my lunch break and take the time. So you gotta do it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, what when I'm doing that consistently when I'm traveling, you're just a lot better off. Traveling can be draining, what you're eating, your sleep schedule, the hotels, the beds, right? All those things together, and even like all the stimuli, just interacting with people. So I think working out's really important. I usually try to eat sushi at least one time when I'm traveling, at least it's like somewhat consistent for me, even though the fish will be a little different. Uh but yeah, try to find some of those consistencies when you're out and about.
SPEAKER_06Good. That's good. So, unique question. You've got 125 different retirement planning lessons from financial experts. Is there one or two that jump out at you that you were maybe more passionate about than others that made you I don't know?
SPEAKER_05I think there's about three that when people read it, they gravitate to a lot. So,
Purposeful Community After You Retire
SPEAKER_05one, I talk about this idea of uh accidental and purposeful communities later on. Yes. And that's been a concept I've talked about for years, but it's uh I guess I just kind of like reword it. I'm sure there are people that uh there's research on this, but they don't talk about it in the same way. So what I say is most of our communities in life were accidental. Like you went to school and your friends were the people in your dorm room, and like it just like happened, right? Like that's who your friends are. That's an accidental community. You didn't pick those people. Um, same thing, you go to work, and for the most part, unless you're a business owner and you're picking your team, a lot of people show up to work and they're just friends with the people they sit near or that get put in their division, and that becomes part of your community. The only time I can think of in life where it is okay to basically reset every community you ever had is when you retire. You're allowed to move across the country, you can never talk to anybody from work again, you can go find a new church by moving. It is about the only time I can think of where it's just totally socially accepted to say, we're just gonna move across the country and retire. Best of luck, it was great knowing you. And because every other part in life, it's like if you've cut those relationships, it feels like it's socially unacceptable. Right. You know, even from school and things like that, you're kind of expected to have some connection. When you retire, for whatever reason, it's just hands off. And if Brad, you want to move to Arizona, move to Arizona. And so I think it's a great time to be able to step back and say, well, what type of people fill me up? What do I want to be involved in, whether it's my church or my school or my family or this group of friends? And maybe you have people that were always draining to you and led you to bad areas, and you can get rid of them at that point. So I think this focus on purposeful community is a really powerful point. That's a little different again from some of, you know, we've got all the saving and investing for retirement and distribution strategies, so don't think it's not in there. But a handful of the, you know, more behavioral ones I think are the ones that people gravitate to. I love it.
SPEAKER_06Last thing, I know, because we're kind of short on time, so I want to ask about your kids, and here's why.
Teaching Kids Money Skills Early
SPEAKER_06You got three kids, and the last time we were together, you mentioned something you did with an app, and I remember you looked on your phone. Well, it's so important to the younger generation. We're taking care of our first world first, and we're in the world of finance, but what are you doing to train the kids so that they because schools aren't teaching them anything, we know this. So, how are they learning about finance?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'll give you a couple different things that I have been really powerful for me. So, one thing I joined this group called Rebel Dads a couple years ago. It's been the best thing I've ever done. Okay. And uh it's a group of CEO entrepreneur dads, and we go with our spouses, some people bring their kids, but really just to be a better spouse and father. So the Greenlight uh that's the app came out of that too. Okay. Um, and then funny enough, the bank that I work at, we actually offer it to all people for free so they can use it. If you're uh you know a bank and client of Wisfish, you have free access to Greenlight. Greenlight, you can get cards for your kids, which are essentially debit cards, load them up by points if they do chores. And so when they go to Disney or travel, we give that to them, and that's their budget for everything outside of like dinner and travel. If they want to buy some like lollipop in the middle of the afternoon, they make that decision with their money. What's super interesting with that one is they spend less. It's wild watching it. It's very hard for me to put parameters like don't spend, but when I give them the card and say it's on them, they're like, oh, well, if I spend this now, I can't buy something later. I love it. So that's a great one. I've taken all three of them into a bank to set up their first banking accounts. Now, I think one day that's gonna be gone, just the reality of the world. Um, it still might be 20 years out, but one day that's gonna go away, I think, and brick and mortar's gonna change. But I thought it's important for them to have that experience of sitting there and having the account opened and like being any physical place because that memory is very different than setting up an account online. Uh the last one is I do take them to work events with me. So I've taken all of them to a travel event with me to see me on stage or interacting with clients or whatever it is. They have all traveled with me. And that's really important because that understands like what you're delivering and how you're impacting people, yeah, right, to how you make money. Because I think we talk about money and I could go through some of the investing things and that they're learning, but then you do want to tie that like this is why we go to work, this is how we impact people, this is the value we're adding to the world, and because of that, we're getting compensated for it. And I felt that's a really important one at a young age.
SPEAKER_06So good, so good. Jamie, we are so appreciative of your work with the American College being a professor in the RSCP. I got to sit at your feet and watch a lot of the training that you did there, and so we just appreciate you taking your time. You're a very giving person. I see you talking to everybody all around you. You'll stop and talk to anyone. So we appreciate you. And if you're watching, if you're listening, you want to go get your copy of your retirement sketchbook, 125 retirement planning lessons from financial experts from Jamie and Bonnie. It's great information. Jamie, thank you so much for joining us today.
SPEAKER_05Thanks for having me on at Horizons again. It's a great event from the American College.
SPEAKER_06Absolutely. Well, there you go, friends. There's no one like Jamie Hopkins. We're so grateful for him taking the time to share his expertise, and you definitely want to check out the new book of his. It is incredible. If you need our help, you can always call us at 866-780-7233. Or just go to Ozarksretirement.com and click on the contact us button. Since I have to take a break, now would be a great time to call me for a complimentary copy of my best-selling book, Bulletproof, the Safe and Secure Retirement Income Plan. And I'll also give you a copy of my Safe Money kit. My number is 866-780Safe. That's 866-780-7233. Isn't it time to stop exposing your retirement to market risk? You're listening to Safe Money Radio with Brad Pistol.
SPEAKER_00Hey, it's Glenn Beck. Can you feel it? America's pride is on the rise again. And right here in the Ozark, the same pride lives on in how we protect our families and plan for the future. That's where Brad Pistol, president of the Ozarks Retirement Group, comes in. Brad's a certified financial fiduciary, and most importantly, a trusted neighborhood who's helped countless Ozark families find financial independence. Call Brad Pistol from the Ozarks Retirement Group at 417-581-9222. That's 417-581-9222, or Ozarks Retirement.com.
SPEAKER_01Now back to more Safe Money Radio with your host, Brad Pistol.
SPEAKER_06Hi, this is Brad Pistol, a tax planning certified professional through the American College, and I love reminding you each and every week what my good friend, America's IRA expert, Ed Slott says. Remember, it's not how much you make, it's how much you keep after paying your taxes that counts. Now let's get back to the show. Well,
Dr Wade Pfau On Retirement Updates
SPEAKER_06if you're just now joining us, we're sharing several different interviews that I recently did in Orlando at the American Colleges event that was sold out, Horizons 2026. And now we're gonna have my good friend Dr. Wade Fow on the show. He's been on many times over the years. He's the founder of RESAProfile.com, that's retirement income style awareness. We give this free of charge out to all of our clients. He is the creator of retirementresearcher.com. He's a principal at McLean Asset Management, and he's a professor with the American College. Joining us from Dallas, Texas through the Orlando event, here is Dr. Wade Powell. Well, hello everyone. We're so excited to be here at Horizons Conference with the American College for year number two, a sold-out year. And our very first guest today of 13 people in a row that we're going to be talking to today, Wade, Dr. Wade Powell. Thank you so much for joining us today.
SPEAKER_04Thank you, Brad. It's great to be with you again.
SPEAKER_06It's always good to spend time with you. And you know, I saw something very exciting this past week. Retire with Style just had one million downloads.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's right. That's a podcast I do with Alex Margage. We've been going for four years now going strong. One million downloads. That's quite a celebration for us. That's something.
SPEAKER_06No, that's that's pretty fantastic. Well, I've been on for a long time. And I you know I was a guest on the show. I had my son on the show, it was a lot of fun, but it is neat to, it seems like everyone has a podcast now, and here we are podcasting from the American College Horizons. And so it's neat to be able to sit down and just hear so many different thoughts from thought leaders and people all across the country. You've had all kinds of guests on the show.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah, yeah. Probably a lot of the same overlapping, I guess, with you. Yeah, absolutely. It's been a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Well, I want to talk about this. We've got this here with us, and not just retire with style, but your book, the retirement planning guidebook, I always say this is the Bible for retirement planning. There's not anything that is not covered in the book, and so this is the 2026 edition, and you don't know it yet, but you're gonna sign this copy when we get done today. Thank you so much for your support for that. I appreciate all the things you write in. So you did some updates. We were talking about this at breakfast this morning. You did some updates this year. What did that include?
SPEAKER_04Right. So the third edition, and if you are looking for the book online, make sure you do get the third edition. I cut a hundred pages out just trying to make it more readable, reader-friendly, didn't lose any of the important content, but just trying to provide a better reader experience. And then there were a lot of tax changes last year, so I had to do significant updates to the tax planning chapter to account for all the new provisions and the new tax legislation from last year.
SPEAKER_06Yes, it's always something is you know, Congress writes everything in pencil, we say it's permanent in pencil until they meet again. But a lot of changes. And so if you read a book from last year, which was great, or the year before, which I've got all your copies, they're in the office, but always want to update it with the newest one because it's got the updated edition in there. So yeah.
SPEAKER_04Absolutely, yeah, and new changes with the new H55 plus bonus deductions that are available, and absolutely pays out with income and adds a new dimension to doing Roth conversions and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_06It does, and that brings up something interesting. You know, I was just at an edge slot event here about 10 days ago, and we're always studying the new tax law, and they had something I'd not ever seen in any of our manus before it was 50 different questions to consider a Roth conversion. And
Roth Conversions And Lifetime Tax Strategy
SPEAKER_06they said there were 60, but they cut it back to 50 for us to study. And like, what are some of the things that someone needs to think about when they consider whether or not they should do a Roth conversion if it's right for them?
SPEAKER_04Well, you need to first figure out where you're starting from. So what income is already coming in, then you need to know what your expenses are. Because before you can even think about Roth conversions, you have to cover your spending needs. Then you're at the point where you can consider do you have some capacity where you can do the Roth conversion and voluntarily paying taxes then? Because you can do so at a reasonably low rate, I can better set you up for the future when required minimum distributions begin to not get hit by that list of surprises. Hey, I don't want to spend that money, but I have to pay tax on it. And it could have some pretty devastating tax implications with all the other aspects of the tax code, with how social security is taxed, how your long-term capital gains tax and ordinary Medicare premium surcharges a certain income special phase up of tax deductions. If you're using the portable care network, when you hit 400% of the federal property line for income, you suddenly lose $1 more, you lose all your subsidies. So there's a lot that you want to think about if you have opportunities to better set your self up for a better long term.
SPEAKER_06Yes, and with that, what you're talking about, and also ARMA, it's a cliff regime. So you go over one dollar, it's not provisional, it's you're off the cliff and you fall into the next trap, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but ARMA I talked about it's it's a hundred thousand percent marginal tax rate on the dollar of income. Because one dollar can lead to about eleven hundred dollars per person for the first fresh over that happens.
SPEAKER_06Wow, that's so many, so many different things to think of, and you brought up a good point yesterday. I got to go to one of the only two or three classes I'll get to go to because I'm interviewing so many people. And I went to the panel that was on tax planning versus tax preparation, and Jeffrey Lubine and David McKnight and uh Robert Powell, a lot of great people, but they talked about paying the lowest lifetime tax. Sometimes we get caught up in I don't want to pay taxes before they're due. I want to wait, I want to defer, defer. But why is it maybe better to pay taxes now versus the future?
SPEAKER_04So it really boils down to being able to pay at a lower rate. So if I could pay tax at, say, 12% now, doing so voluntarily, if that helps me to not pay tax at 22% later, then I get a better financial outcome over my lifetime. And it's not just minimizing taxes, but really maximizing after-tax spending in month and looking for those opportunities to pay taxes at lower rates lays that foundation for more after-tax spending in months over your lifetime.
SPEAKER_06Well, I want to ask you a question I don't think I've ever asked you, but I ask a lot of people, and it's uh just a matter of opinion. But do you think taxes will go up in the future or down in the future?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I don't like to predict those kinds of things, but I mean certainly the preponderance of evidence and where we are with debt and everything points to the idea that we will have to experience tax increases at some point. When or how that will happen, I can't say, but sure, yeah, we have an answer on that that needs to be paid down at some point.
SPEAKER_06Well, I asked that for a reason because yesterday in the class uh they asked that, and they said just based on looking at hands in the audience, it looks like about 99% of people think that taxes are gonna go up in the future, not down. And said, ironically, how many of you are doing tax deferral right now? So you're deferring your taxes, and you've all said you think the taxes are gonna go up in the future, so maybe. It's one of those things that will stimulate some thought. If we think it's going up in the future, why would we defer and want to pay the taxes later? Unless you think your income's really going to drop significantly and then the tax change wouldn't make a difference. But maybe a good idea to pay some taxes now.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, if you're still working and if you're in the higher tax brackets now, even if tax rates go up in the future, it'd still be lower for you when you're retired than than in your peak earnings. Absolutely. I mean your peak if you're retired already, it's it'd be a great opportunity to pay some taxes now before rates go up.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. Well, I know you speak all over the place. I see you all over the place. So what are some of the things that you seemingly get asked more than anything else? What are people always picking your brain about?
SPEAKER_04Oh well, yeah. I mean, yesterday at the conference we had an ask me anything session, and some of the areas where I've done a lot of work are like how much can you spend from investments in retirement? So it's like a 4% real safe. That's a popular question. Sure. They ask me about annuities. Is there a role for annuities in a retirement income plan? I've written about reverse mortgages, so I can get questions about that. And then the tax spending, like we've been talking about now, that a lot of people are interested in how to structure how to really dive in deep, figuring out those tax money from conversion decisions.
SPEAKER_06I love it. Well, I'm a I'm a huge annuity advocate, so I'll ask you that as we wrap
How Annuities Support Income Plans
SPEAKER_06up. What would the role be? And I know there's more than one, but what are some of the roles annuities can play in a lifetime income plan for a retiree?
SPEAKER_04Well, the way I look at it, and I know you're a big advocate of the retirement income style awareness, so looking at some folks who just they don't resonate with annuities, but if you're looking for safety, protection, commitment to a strategy, the research I've done really shows like the math behind it. The role annuities can play is part of your fixed income allocation, which is a fancier name for bonds. Like instead of having stocks and bonds, you keep your stocks, but you transition some of the bonds into reliable lifetime income through the annuity. And then that annuity becomes a workforce to cover more of your spending in retirement, putting less pressure on your other investments, giving your other investments more opportunity to grow, and that can really lead to better retirement by by incorporating that lifetime income, the power of insurance and risk pooling into the retirement income strategy. So those it's more like for people to have a style that sees value in having reliable income from annuities. The investments rule will say you're you're giving a upside to do that. Right. It's really not the case. You keep your stocks, it's not an all-or-nothing decision, and it's not a matter of selling stocks to buy annuities, it's really repositioning some of your fixed income assets into reliable life, I mean.
SPEAKER_06I love it. You know, on the plane on the way here on my second flight, I got an email notification from someone who had taken the RESA. So, for those watching, retirement income style awareness that he created with Dr. Alex Margilla is we've been using it for years, and I love it. And so this is a client that's out of state that's in Arizona, and they took the RESA as a beginning step of what is your retirement income style, and it came back in protected income. And so now we're gonna have conversations with them about what does that mean and are your assets in the right location in order to accomplish your goals. So another great tool uh through Alex and also Dr. Wade Fowl of the Retirement Income Style Awareness. So we're grateful for that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and thank you. You've been a big supporter of it, and I know you've used it in your firm. If anyone's listening, we can definitely uh reach out to you to take their research.
SPEAKER_06Absolutely, contact us anytime, and so we're grateful for you being here joining us today. We know you're busy, you're gonna go speak here in just a minute, and uh we'll have several more guests coming to you here live at the American College, year number two in Orlando, Florida. Thank you so much for joining us today. Well, friends, it's always great to have someone like Dr. Wade Fowl on the show to be able to interview them with all the other guests on the show. Such an incredible person. If you need our help in any way with your financial planning, please go to Ozarksretirement.com. Just click on the contact us button. I will personally reach back out to you and get in touch with you regarding a free financial consultation. Ozarksretirement.com, click on the contact us button. This is Brad Pistol, your host of Safe Money Radio. I'll be right back after this informative message. This is Brad Pistol, the host of Safe Money Radio, right here in the Ozarks for the past 15 plus years, and I'm so excited to announce the formation of the Ozarks Retirement Group right here in Ozark, Missouri. This team of advisors and financial professionals can cover all of your retirement income needs. We have financial experts who can help you with your Medicare, your Social Security Planning, your investment planning, tax planning, and of course, your safe and secure guaranteed lifetime income plan. We've been located in the same office complex for the past two decades, just one block east of Lambert's behind Simmons Bank. And no matter what your need is, we can help you. We are retirement income and tax planning certified professionals through the American College of Financial Services. Call us today for a free financial consultation. Our number is 866-780 SAFE. We are the Ozarks Retirement Group, and we are here to assist you with all of your retirement planning needs. Our number again is 866-780-7233, and there's always someone standing by to take your call. Hi, this is Brad Pistol, the host of Safe Money Radio for almost two straight decades. I'm a retirement income certified professional, and I love talking to you each week about developing your safe and secure retirement income plan. Now let's get back to the show. Now I'm excited to share with you an interview with David McKnight. Many of you know David McKnight. You read his book, The Power of Zero. He's a best-selling author. He's had a lot of great books out over the years. He has a brand new book that I interviewed him about at the conference. It's The Secret Order of Millionaires. Seven Principles for Building Tax-Free Wealth. From Arlington Heights, Illinois. And many times he's from Puerto Rico. That's where he spends a lot of his time. But so excited to share with you the interview with David McKnight. So, David, take it away.
David McKnight On Tax-Free Wealth
SPEAKER_06Well, here we are at the American College Horizons event, year number two, sold out, and we have another very famous person, good friend David McKnight, here with us today, whose brand new book just released. So we're going to be talking some about this: The Secret Order of Millionaires, Seven Principles for Building Tax-Free Wealth. David, thank you for joining us. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. If you will tell everyone a little bit about your power of zero background, how that I've heard you tell the story several times about how that took off, just throwing it out there on Amazon, and then what do you know? Here it went. So the tax-free guru, though, talk to us about that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I took uh over about 10 years, I developed a whiteboard presentation I would give to groups. And then I was in a Tom Hegna meeting and uh he was doing his paychecks and play checks talk. Yeah. It was great. I loved it. I was just fell in love with everything that Tom does. And at the end of the presentation, he says, Dave, he didn't say Dave, he told the room, he told the room, he said, if you wish that a client had been here, and but they couldn't, but you want them to get this presentation in book format. I've got uh the book for sale in the back of the room for $20 each. And it just hit me like a bolt out of the blue. I've got to commit my own presentation to book format. And so that's that's what I did. I basically disgorged my presentation onto paper. It took me about three days to write it, and I threw it out on the Amazon, crossed my fingers, and just hoped that people would buy it. And here we are. It's uh sold way more copies than I ever dreamed possible. Uh so I feel very, very lucky that it's gotten the traction that it has.
SPEAKER_06I've given away, I don't know how many copies of it, and I remember the tax train, zero tax trains coming, your DVDs and videos. I bought all your books, and so I appreciate it. The the Guru book from last year. Guru Gap, right? Guru Gap, great book, and so much good information. Tell us what inspired the new book, The Secret Order of Millionaires.
SPEAKER_02Well, the Secret Order of Millionaires really is aimed at some of the younger generations. So this is the millennials and the Gen Z. So anyone anywhere from age 15 to 45, so that's a 30-year gap. And and in my research for the book, I found that uh those two generations generally are behind the wealth curve. They've got less money accumulated uh by this point in their lives relative to Baby Boomer and Gen X forebears, and they've got higher debt-to-income ratios. They've just generally uh sort of lagging where they probably should be. And so I wanted to write. So all my other books really focus on people that have already accumulated wealth. And so I wanted to ask the question hey, if somebody wants to start out and do it the right way, yeah, how do they do that? Yeah. So I created seven principles uh that are really time-tested, not anything that I really invented, but these are time-tested principles that made our parents and grandparents wealthy. Yeah. And so I want to say, hey, what can we do to bring these principles in a very accessible way to these younger generations? And so this is not a boring business book, it's actually uh like a financial novella and uh like a cross between Dan Brown and M. Night Shyamalan. It's got a really cool absorbing plot, and the principles are embedded within the pages of the story, so they're reading a cool story and unwittingly absorbing these really important principles along the way.
SPEAKER_06And it's like a parable. I mean, I I I love it. I started it last night. I told you I ordered my books, you know, pre-ordered back a long time ago, and they came in right as I was when I was already gone for this trip. So they're back at the office. So but I'm thankful that you gave me a copy here and we're able to share this with all of our viewers and listeners. You definitely want to get a copy of this. So, but now let's talk about some of your other work, some of the things you do, because you really specialize in the tax-free planning for the future. Right. Talk about what type of tax issues you see coming down the road in this great country of ours.
SPEAKER_02Well, the reality is that most people have the lion share of the retirement savings squirreled away in 401k's NIRAs. That means they got a deduction on the front end and they've got to pay the piper somewhere down the road. And it could be five, ten, fifteen, twenty years from now. And so the idea behind what I what I preach really is that uh based on the fiscal trajectory of our nation, we believe that tax rates, even 10 years from now, could be dramatically higher than they are today. Yes. Um we're on this really apocalyptic debt trajectory. We were talking a little bit beforehand how uh Penn Wharton recently came out with a uh study that said that by 2043 we're gonna have 200 percent debt to GDP. Wow and if we don't rewrite our fiscal ship of state by then, that no combination of raising taxes or reducing spending will arrest the financial collapse of our nation. And they said that could happen as soon as 2040 when the debt to GDP is 175. So what we're basically saying is look, if you got money in a 401k and IRA, you've entered into a business partnership with the IRS, and every year they get to vote on what percentage of your profits they get to keep. Not a great business partnership to be in. So we're saying, hey, look, let's systematically reposition those assets to tax-free while tax rates are historically low, so that by the time tax rates do potentially rise over time, you've done all the heavy lifting, then can then take that money out tax-free.
SPEAKER_06And that could be Roth Conversions to some point. It could be using specialized types of accounts like in in um IULs.
IUL As Volatility Buffer And LTC
SPEAKER_06Absolutely. Index universal life insurance policies, which I own several of. And so talk talk to us a little bit about how that works because, like an annuity, a life policy can be given some bad press where people are like, oh, I don't need life insurance. There's all kinds of reasons for why they think they don't. I have too much money, or it doesn't matter, she's gonna get a pension. We don't need life insurance. Talk about the power to life insurance that people miss the boat on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, there's a couple applications for cash value life insurance that I really, really like, particularly in the IUL context. Um, the first one is what we call a volatility buffer or volatility shield. I got a book called The Volatility Shield where I really dive into it. It's also a financial parable. Uh basically the idea is that if you can accumulate three to five years worth of living expenses within that IUL by day one of retirement, and then in the year after a down year in the stock market, instead of drawing money out of your stock market portfolio while it's down, you live out of your IUL. Yes. Okay, and what that does is it gives your stock portfolio a chance to recover before you take further distributions. And that act alone can increase the sustainable withdrawal rate on your stock portfolio from 4%, we've all heard about the 4% rule, right to as high as 8%. So in other words, the I mean, the long and the short of it is if you're only taking money out of your portfolio when it's up, then your sustained withdrawal rate is much, much higher. It's double what it could normally be. And so that's I think one of the greatest applications. I mean, cash value life is a particular IUL, it's safe and productive. You can't protect yourself from volatility using an account that is exposed to volatility. So that the great thing about the IUL is it's it's got historical rates of return between five to seven percent net of fees. So you can grow your money safely and productively. When you take money out, it's gonna be there for you when your stock market is down. And um, if you're trying to save three to five years worth of living expenses by day one of retirement, and you can't Susie Orman actually likes the idea of the volatility buffer, but she says put it in a savings account where it's already in zero point nothing, right?
SPEAKER_06With no death benefit, that's it.
SPEAKER_02But if you can grow it at five to seven percent, you're gonna have to put less money in there along the way to be able to get to the point where you have three to five years worth of living expenses. That means more money can stay in your stock portfolio and grow productively over there. And so that's the first real um real uh sort of um context in which I really love using IUL. The second one is this whole idea of being able to use your death benefit in advance of your death for the purpose of paying for long-term care. I love that. It's huge. People don't like traditional long-term care insurance. It's expensive. It's a use it or lose it, it's hard to qualify. You could live to be 120, but if you have a bad back, a bad hip, a bad knee, you may not even get accepted. So, this whole idea that you can get a life insurance policy where you can access the death benefit before you die for the purpose of paying for long-term care, that's uh that's probably 75% of the people of my clients that have cash value life insurance. That's their primary motivation. They they love that component of it. And if they die peacefully in their sleep 30 years from now, never having needed long-term care, someone's still getting a death benefit, probably their kids or their grandkids. So it's just a great way to cover the long-term care of bogey without the heartburn that goes along with traditional long-term care insurance.
SPEAKER_06I love that. And for me, the the biggest thing with that concept is now it's you signed up for it when you did qualify, you got your traditional long-term care, you thought it was the best thing for you, but then you keep getting these rate increase notices that are 15, 18, 20 percent returns, uh rate increases, and they're like, I can't, I can't afford to pay, what what what do I do? And so they either have to cut benefits, as you know, or drop it all together. And so that's what's driving a lot of it is the unbelievable cost of long-term care. So now people are looking for different vehicles to park their money into. Right. And you talked about something that's powerful that that volatility buffer, taking money out of an IUL and using it in a downward market to keep you from the sequence of returns risk. Is that taxable or tax-free when you take that money out of it?
SPEAKER_02That's a great question. I'm glad you brought that up. It's actually tax-free. If you take it, you can actually withdraw your basis uh completely tax-free. It's after tax dollars. Uh I prefer to loan it, so you just take a loan. And if you've got the right type of policy with the right carrier, it can be a net zero percent loan. So um, I've never been real good at math, but if they they they do actually have to charge you a rate of interest, but they'll credit it right back to you into your account. So uh if they charge you three and they credit three back, like I said, never been real good at math, but plus three and minus three gets you to zero, so it's a net zero cost loan. So that means that you don't have to pay it back if you don't want to. You can pay it back, but you're not required.
SPEAKER_06And and if you don't pay the loan back, what happens?
SPEAKER_02Nothing really happens because there's no interest accruing. There's it. So there's no real penalty for not pay paying it. But some people do like to pay it back, but hey, look, if I've got a if I take out $150,000 to pay for my lifestyle in any given year, and I have to pay that loan back, like in some cases, like a whole life policy, you want to pay a loan back because there's a net interest rate that's accruing. If I got to take money out of the stock market that's growing eight to ten to pay off a loan, you know, that's opportunity costs over the course of your lifetime. That's why I love this the the you know the the the IUL because with the right carrier you can take it out tax-free and cost-free. And that means you're not required to pay it back, which means you can leave your money in the stock market growing and compounding in a very productive way.
SPEAKER_06I say this to people all the time because they'll say, Well, we we want you to do for our family whatever you're doing for yourself. Sure. We know you're successful, so what are you doing? And I'll say, Well, this may throw you for a loop. I own a lot of annuities, own eight annuities, they're great to structure. I also own a lot of life insurance policies, and I put more than $100,000 a year into them. And they'll say, Into a life insurance policy? Well, why are you doing that? Then when I start talking to them about these long-term care like benefits, the ability for chronic illness, critical illness, to be able to withdraw that instead of having to purchase a long-term care policy, like I didn't know they could do that. I didn't know you could take loans tax-free and not have to pay taxes on it like you would from an IRA. So it's just lack of education. People just don't know that it's there. When someone can get educated, which they can through your information, The Power of Zero, such a great book, such great information, and uh I'm thankful that you're doing this for young people. Because as we I was talking to Jamie Hopkins before this, and he has three kids, and we were talking about educating the younger generation because they're not getting taught this in school. So we're so grateful for you being here, for you sharing your inforcate your information with all the people here here at Horizons and just all the work that you do. Thank you so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_02Megan's a pleasure being here. Thank you.
SPEAKER_06Thank you. You'll definitely want to check out David's new book, The Secret Order of Millionaires. You can get it on Amazon. And if you need our help, just reach out to us anytime, ozarksretirement.com and click on the contact us button. Well, I must take a short break. This is Brad Pistol, and you're listening to Safe Money Radio. Let's pause for some exciting announcements.
SPEAKER_00America's pride is on the rise again. And right here in the Ozark, the same pride lives on in how we protect our families and plan for the future. That's where Brad Pistol, president of the Ozarks Retirement Group, comes in. Brad's a certified financial fiduciary, and most importantly, a trusted neighborhood who's helped countless Ozark families find financial independence. That's 417-581-9222, or Ozarks Retirement.com.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to Safe Money Radio with your host, Brad Pistol.
SPEAKER_06Hi, this is Brad Pistol, the host of Safe Money Radio for almost two straight decades. I'm a retirement income certified professional, and I love talking to you each week about developing your safe and secure retirement income plan. Now let's get back to the show. And now we're going to wrap up the show today from Horizons 2026 with my good friend Don Graves. He is a fellow RICP retirement income certified professional. He's also in the Irma Group, income related monthly adjustment amount certified planners. He is a reverse mortgage specialist, a public speaker, and an author, and he's from Philadelphia. So let's listen to what Don had to say at Horizons 2026.
Don Graves On Housing Wealth
SPEAKER_06Well, here we are coming back. We're back together again. Yes, we were. Good to be back. So Don Graves has been a guest on our show many times over the years. We've been at a lot of conferences together, whether it's Horizons or EdSlot conferences, and I just appreciate his friendship and his expertise in so many different things: tax planning, tax-free income, reverse mortgages. So tell us a little bit about yourself, Don. Tell us what you do every day.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm Don Graves. I'm in greater Philadelphia. I've been in the reverse mortgage space now 26 years. Can you believe that? Wow, 26. Oh my gosh. So what I do is I primarily help financial advisors understand the importance of housing wealth in order to strengthen retirement outcomes for their clients. And particularly the reverse mortgage, which as you know, and can be a little bit scary to the advisors and irrelevant to most, but scary when you mention the word.
SPEAKER_06Well, it's just something that just doesn't come up in our training for the most part until I started working with the American College and went through RICP and TPCP. You go through these things and go, oh, there's a whole block of wealth here that we ignore. We don't even talk about it. Like how to use your home and the equity in your home in a tax-free way. It's like something that didn't come up. Everything's more 401k, IRA driven. So talk to us about this missing element that most people don't even ever even talk about.
SPEAKER_03Sure, the reverse mortgage, first of all, uh you ever mentioned the barbecue? You know what happened. And uh three people dove under the table, three people left the table, and y'all Janey, who done some tie, made a shank out of a plastic knife and fork and came at you. It's just dangerous. Don't say reverse mortgage or a nutty. Don't say it. You mentioned it. But I tell folks, I said, I asked this question. If there was a way to increase your cash flow in retirement, to use your home to increase your cash flow in retirement, would you want to know how it works? And most people are like, yeah. I said, if your home could be turned into a reserve fund that was growing tax-free at 6-8% that could potentially surpass a million dollars that you could use to supplement or support your other retirement goals, would you want to know how it works? And so I began to ask questions like that, and folks would look at me like the old sitcom, what you talking about, Willis? Yeah. I say, listen, um, the modern reverse mortgage started in 1961. There are 24 other countries outside of the United States that have it. We relate to the party, became under the auspices of the federal government in 1988. So I remind people it's not new, it's not dangerous, it's not spooky. Well, Don, what is it? I jam. It's just a mortgage. It's just a mortgage that can be used and incorporating with your other retirement assets. Now, most Folks in retirement, not all, but most people have three main retirement buckets. I call it buckets because I'm from Kentucky. But you've got your income buckets, Social Security, pension if you're lucky, employment if you're working, your investment buckets, IRAs 401k, uh business to sell, a house in the Hamptons, and your insurance bucket, fixed and variable annuities, and life insurance. And I say, now, are these three buckets gonna be enough to last you all of retirement, maintain the purchasing power? Are you 100% certain? And most folks will say, I'm not. Yeah. And I said, Well, listen, I said 87% of retirees have access to a fourth bucket, and that's called housing wealth. So if we can incorporate housing wealth and it can strengthen or lengthen these other buckets, would you want to see how it works? There are 52, 52 retirement income strategies that I've taught in and through the American College that most advisors just don't know how this works. Right. And so I get excited when I have an opportunity to share, talk, or write about it, and I appreciate you giving giving light and exposure to it.
SPEAKER_06Well, I get so many questions about it, of course, when people are worried about running out of money before they run out of life, and they don't realize you probably know the hard stats on it, but the home is probably what percentage of someone's wealth? I mean, it's up there. It's either the home 68%.
SPEAKER_03I knew you would know this U.S. Census Bureau, 68% of the average baby boomer's total wealth is in their home.
SPEAKER_06And then we don't even know that we can use it in any kind of way, or we've been told something that's not accurate, and we're like, I don't even want to bring that up. So you share the facts, you shine the light on it. As a matter of fact, you got a brand new book.
SPEAKER_03I do, and and uh I'm releasing it here to the uh viewing public today using housing wealth to reduce taxes and retirement. Twelve conversations that most advisors or their clients don't know, and I'm excited about because it's a it's an insane premise to some. Using reverse mortgages to reduce taxes, I said, well, sure. I said, we we saved the lady $212,000 in taxes. We saved another lady $300,000 in um capital gains taxes by using it. We saved a uh a little widow woman $2,200 in taxes because she made a simple distribution from her IRA, traditional IRA, that she didn't know that it was going to cause her to go over a certain threshold for Social Security. Right. So what she thought would be this much in taxes ended up being this much. In each of those 12 conversations, I said, it was one simple thing you could have added. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but if you knew you had that fourth bucket, that housing wealth bucket, then when something came up and you needed 12,000, 8,000 or $50,000, now you have a choice of where do I pull that from? What do I do? And if I can save you taxes, uh sometimes substantially, that's a good conversation to have. And and hey, and Brad, I wrote this for you. You see that? It's small. I call this Heather. Uh, this is a bathroom read, right? Yeah, yeah. Two trips to the bathroom, and well, depending, you look like you can get done in one. But two trips to the bathroom, and you can I love it.
SPEAKER_06My copy came in just before I left. I'm gonna give you a sign conference. And you got you brought me one even better because it's got your signature. This is what's cool about this conference with the American College. We were standing over here a few minutes ago, and Dr. Wade Fowl came by and he was already a guest on the show, which will you may be listening right now or you may be watching online. But the cool thing is the three of us get together, which is dangerous, and we're talking and you're sharing stories about how you met Wade years ago, and you told us the story about saving someone $300,000 in taxes in a way that they didn't even know was possible to them. And so you reminded me of Tom Hegna. Tom's a golfer, you know Tom, and he's always talking about using all the clubs in your bag. If you went out to play golf and you only they give you 14 that you can use legally, if you only took six with you, you're at a great disadvantage. Why wouldn't you use the other clubs in your bag? And this is just another club that people don't use.
SPEAKER_03So it's spooky, right? Like I said
Reverse Mortgage Myths And Real Rules
SPEAKER_03earlier, it gets spooky. And um you went over to Tracy's barbecue, and Uncle Jumba came out of her spare bedroom, and someone said, What you doing in Tracy's spare bedroom? Now here's what he said, you all have heard it. I got that reverse mortgage and I lost my house. And what does everyone say at the barbecue? I knew it. Yep. You shouldn't have done it, I told you. Sunday they went and told the deacons at church, Monday, the barbershop, Tuesday, the beauty salon, and by the end of the week, someone knew someone had a friend, had a cousin, had a grandfather, got a reverse mortgage and lost their house. Then they come to me and say, Don, what do you say? And I look at him, I said, What Uncle June Bug said is a hundred percent true. Oh my gosh, you're the evildoer. You're taking old people's houses. And I said, now, Uncle Junebug didn't tell you the full truth. Right. The full truth is when you get a reverse mortgage, you gotta live in the property, take care of it, keep homeowners' insurance, and pay your property taxes. Let me tell you what Uncle Junebug didn't tell him. He hadn't paid his taxes in four years. That had nothing to do with the reverse mortgage. The municipality took action against him. Yeah. And I said, now, he didn't come out and say, hey folks, I'm here because I haven't paid my property tax in four years. That's not a good story. Blame it on the poor lowly reverse mortgage and let that get traction. But no one has lost their home. That I know I've been doing it 26 years, 16,000 consumer-facing conversations, 3,000 personal clients. No one has lost their home because of reverse mortgage. You've got to pay your taxes and insurance. And so it's not spooky, but those stories get out there. They do. And then people say, Oh, I don't want to mention that, I want someone to know I did it. And I said, Listen, um, uh, a man called the retired CEO of a multinational pharmaceutical company had $5 million with Merrill Lynch. I know that because the Merrill Lynch advisor called me and said he had five million dollars, and the and the man wanted to do a reverse mortgage, and the Merrill Lynch advisor says, That's not for you. You've got uh four and a half million dollar home in Stone Harbor, you got five million dollars with me. And they but the man persisted for months, so he finally called me and I said, What are you trying to do? He says, Well, we want to get um life insurance, multi-generational life insurance plan. The premiums are fifteen thousand dollars a month. Okay. And I said, Well, just take it out of the five million every year. He said, Well, no, no, there's a risk and early withdrawal risk and sequence risk. And I said, Well, does he have a mortgage on his property? He had a four and a half million dollar home, he had a mortgage of two point one million dollars. Okay. He's paying $21,000 a month of principal and interest. And we did a reverse mortgage on that house. When we did the reverse mortgage, the first thing it did, the reverse mortgage made available $2.2 million. The first thing it did is paid off the $2.1 million. Folks, that freed up $21,000 a month in principal and interest payment. $15,000 of that could do the life insurance that made sure his widow, his children, and grandchildren got a substantial amount of money. And it didn't impact his cash flow, nor did it impact the $5 million. So we were able to take something he was already doing, reframe it, and give a bigger legacy to his heirs and estate. The advisor had no idea.
SPEAKER_06Didn't even know it could be done.
SPEAKER_03And so this is what happens when sometimes you got maybe outdated information. And I don't fault the advisor. I don't fault. It's like that's not your job to know these things. That's my job to be able to say, if I can just keep you open for five or six minutes, I may be able to share something that is just, I want you to be the hero. I'm Yoda. You're Luke Skywalker, you're you're shooting the Death Star. I'm just saying, you know, go this way, young fella.
SPEAKER_06I love it. So for those of you listening right now, you know you've you hear me talk about reverse mortgages, and this is who I always refer to. Wade Fowl and Don have great books regarding this. They've done a lot of work together on things. Matter of fact, Wade Powell wrote the forward to your new book. He did write the forward. So I would say if you're listening right now, you want to know more information about another tool in your toolkit or another club in your golf bag. This is the person you're going to be talking to that I'm going to send you to. So, Don, thank you so much for joining us today here at the American College at Horizons and for sharing your thoughts with us. Thank you, sir. Pleasure to be here. Well, I hope you enjoyed the show today.
Wrap Up And How To Connect
SPEAKER_06Part two of the 13 interviews from the key financial planning experts from Horizons 2026. We had Jamie Hopkins, Dr. Wade Powell, David McKnight, and Don Graves on the show. And we're going to continue next week with part three of the interviews. You don't want to miss it. So if you missed any part of the show, just go to YouTube, type in Brad Pistol, Safe Money Radio. And you can either re-listen to the radio programs or you can subscribe to the podcast. Thank you for joining us. If we can help you in any way, just go to Ozarksretirement.com and click on contact us. Well, I'm about out of time, and I would like to thank you for listening to Safe Money Radio. If you're serious about your financial future, give me a call, and together we'll get your retirement savings on the fast track to accumulation while reducing exposure to market losses. Thanks for listening, and until next time at the same time, I'm Brad Pistol, reminding you to stay safe so you can step into a secure future.
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