What is Layoff Trauma? Resilience & Healing with Michelle Okeke

What happens to our peace of mind after a layoff, even when we land back on our feet?

This episode features Michelle Okeke, whose impressive career includes roles at Pinterest, Facebook, Twitter, and Bose. Michelle opens up about the layoff trauma she experienced  and the challenging journey of navigating an unpredictable job market. Despite securing a new role at Triumph Pay, Michelle reveals the persistent anxiety and fear that often accompany layoffs. Her story underscores the critical importance of mental health awareness and the power of a supportive network.

In this episode, we peel back the layers of layoff trauma and discuss how to shift our perspectives towards recovery. Highlighting the transformative power of open conversations, Michelle emphasizes moving from fear and anxiety to gratitude and joy. We explore how acknowledging our achievements can rebuild confidence and counter feelings of inadequacy. Additionally, Michelle provides invaluable advice on nurturing career growth through mistakes and staying true to the passions that initially drew us to our professions.

Episode Highlights: 

• Discussion about handling layoffs and their long-term impacts on individuals.
• What is layoff trauma and how is it manifested after finding new employment? 
• Learn about Michelle's personal experience with layoff trauma: anxiety, fear, and disassociation in her new role.
• Strategies for coping with layoff trauma: talking to someone, shifting to a perspective of gratitude, and recognizing personal achievements
• Why it is important to be open about job status and using social media platforms like LinkedIn for support and networking.
• Advice on diversifying job search strategies: combining online applications, personal branding, and in-person networking.
• Understanding that career paths are not always linear and encouragement to stay true to initial career motivations.

Guest LInks:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelleokeke/

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:00

When you hear the word layoff trauma, the assumption is that it has to do with that time in between your last job and your current job. But to me the trauma really showed up when I actually landed a job.

Speaker 2 0:24

Welcome back to the she Speaks Influence Effect podcast. It's been about a week or two that we had a short summer hiatus, but we are back here in the height and the heat of summer with a brand new episode for you. This episode actually first appeared on our Powerhouse Women show, and that is a live series that we do on LinkedIn, and we thought that there was some really interesting elements to this episode that would appeal and be interesting to our podcast audience, so we are bringing it for you here today. My guest on the show is Michelle Okeke. Michelle is somebody who has a very long history in her career, being at places like Pinterest and some of the other social media platforms, so she's got some great experience.

Speaker 2 1:13

She had a post go viral probably several weeks ago, where she talked about a topic that was was new to me and one that I think really hit a chord within a lot of people, and that is something she called layoff trauma, and what she talked about was how does that affect you even after you find a new job? Does it make you more hesitant and nervous to jump in and be a part of conversations with people and doing the work? How do you overcome some of the challenges of being laid off and the impacts the longer-term impacts of being laid off, this concept I mentioned of layoff trauma, and we talk about the anxieties that are associated with layoff and how you can really lean into your network and the people to find people who are supportive of you to help you in this very unpredictable job market. So I really hope that you find this episode interesting. There's some great tips in here in terms of job seeking and also coping mechanisms in terms of the impact on your mental health, if you're one of the many people who've been through a job layoff.

Speaker 2 2:27

So, with that, I'm going to let you hear my conversation with Michelle. Michelle, I'm so looking forward to talking with you because you have some great insights on a topic that I think so many people who are hearing this, watching this, are going to want to hear about, which is related to handling how you handle a layoff and what the impact of that is longer term, even once you find another role that you're going to take on. But before we jump into all of that, let's start with a little bit of an introduction of you. Can you talk about who you are a little bit and your background, your career background?

Speaker 1 3:08

So a bit about me. My background is in marketing and advertising. I started out my career at a media agency, basically buying ads, placing them on media publishers, and was in charge of a whole bunch of flow charts and media plans, very quickly realized that my life could not exist in Excel, and so for me it just couldn't. I have a lot of friends who are still on the media side, who love it and they're doing well. It's just for me. I realized I needed a bit more creativity, and so that's what led me into marketing.

Speaker 1 3:39

My career started on the marketing side, where I was the marketing manager for a few different publishers, notably the Root, which was on the Washington Post at the time, and then I moved over to Time Inc and I was at Essence as a marketing manager. And then I moved over to the tech side and spent some time at Pinterest, facebook and Twitter in kind of marketing advertising, and then when the pandemic hit, it kind of rocked everything for everyone, right For me. We went from being in office to being remote. I was in New York at the time. I'm now based in Dallas, my hometown.

Speaker 1 4:14

So then I was at Bose. I was there as the marketing lead, basically for the House of Worship Vertical, promoting and selling in all of our large-scale professional speakers for church venues. So it was a really interesting, really cool space and unfortunately, that was kind of where I was laid off and kind of what started me on that path of like figuring out what to do next and being in the space that so many, so many people are still in today, kind of grappling with the uncertainty and the unpredictability of this job market that we're in. And luckily, through my network, through favor, through the grace of God, I landed at where I am now, which is I Am Pay based here in Dallas.

Speaker 2 5:03

So let's get to this post that you wrote in May, which is kind of how we ended up being introduced to one another, but it for mental. May was Mental Health Awareness Month, and you wrote a post on LinkedIn that ended up going viral. On that post, you talked about layoff trauma and I think it resonated so much with other people. If you could talk a little bit about what inspired you to write that post and what is layoff trauma?

Speaker 1 5:36

Yeah, so, like I said, I had been laid off for about 10 months before I finally landed at Triumph Pay. And you know, when you hear the word layoff trauma, the assumption is that it has to do with that time in between your last job and your current job. But to me the trauma really showed up when I actually landed a job. It actually showed up when I was back in a position of working and when I had kind of overcome the layoff I realized that there were still a lot of effects that I had kind of picked up because of that period. So what it looked like for me was just an overall overarching anxiety and fear. Fear that it might happen again, right, and fear that I'll be in the same position that I was in previously. And what's crazy is I had been laid off before. It wasn't like the first time that I had been laid off, but I think because of the variables that were currently present you know, the fact that I have two children, the fact that I have a mortgage, more responsibilities than I've ever had being in such a vulnerable position really kind of shook me and kind of pulled my relationship with work and with what we do, with what I do. So the way it showed up, it started showing up in meetings and how I interacted with co-workers, I would just notice that I was a bit more withdrawn with my co-workers. I wasn't speaking up as much in meetings I was more careful with the things I said. I was more fearful if I didn't think I could meet a certain deadline and I had to have a conversation with the manager Like well, what if it was almost like I would be in the room and this is kind of hard to explain, but I would be in the room. But I felt like I was out of my body, watching myself in the room, like a complete disassociation almost from the present. Because again I think in my mind I was just kind of like how did I even end up here? Is this real? I think anybody who has experienced that same level of transition might be able to relate to that, because it shook me.

Speaker 1 7:45

I grappled with it for the majority of the first three months that I was at the company and I had been wanting to say something. I had talked about it with friends and they were kind of like Michelle, you know you haven't like posted about this job as much Like you haven't shared that. You got a new job, and that's not like me. I'm big on LinkedIn, I'm big on social, I'm big on sharing accomplishments, wins. But this one I had kept close to the chest and I didn't know why, and it was a friend of mine who actually was like I think you might be like a bit traumatized from what you just went through. I was getting support from friends and family to keep things moving, and so that's again a position that I never anticipated I would be in and it it rocked me. And when she said that, I was like I think you're right.

Speaker 1 8:39

I think that's what all of this is is like just a trauma sort of a trauma response to a hard, hard moment.

Speaker 1 8:47

And so then that's why I posted about it, because I kind of wanted to see, like, who else is feeling this, because all I'm seeing, you know, on LinkedIn, and for good reason is people just being like, after months and months of applying for jobs and going to interviews and getting rejections and getting offers and getting them rescinded, I'm now at blah, blah, blah and it's just like this, happily wrapped, but what are y'all actually doing Like, is anybody else feeling this or is it really just me, and you know, of course, the response oh, that it wasn't.

Speaker 1 9:22

It wasn't just me, and I actually had more people reach out to me personally directly to share that. Like it had hit them, but they weren't really ready to talk about it publicly, like they weren't really ready to put it out there yet, and they felt more comfortable just having the conversation privately. And I'm just kind of like, well, we need to have this conversation publicly, like there's, I think there's a lot of shame still around layoffs, even though they had nothing to do with you and your performance, and there's a lot of shame around the effects and the emotions around it, and I just think we should be able to talk about it, and the same way we talk about any other kind of trauma that we go through, you know, we should be able to have these conversations in professional settings because it shows up in your work. It shows up in your work, it has a direct impact on how you can fill up, and so if you don't talk about it, I think it only gets worse.

Speaker 2 10:14

Yeah, I mean, wow, there's so much in there. And I want to see if we can talk a little bit about that feeling you had, where you described that you were sitting in these rooms in meetings in your new role and feeling like almost like an out-of-body experience Very much, where, very much. And I think that happens frequently when we are judging ourselves right. So we are, we are looking at ourselves as if we're like on a stage. We're not actually in the moment ourselves, we're experiencing as if we're on the stage watching ourselves and want to be very careful.

Speaker 2 10:58

And it's just interesting to me because, as you're talking, I was thinking about how it's not at all surprising to me that you had that experience, that other people probably resonated with them because they've had a similar experience, and I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about how did it evolve for you? How was it a? Okay, I'm recognizing that this is what's happening. Now, how do I handle it so that I can be more present? Like, do you have any people to once they maybe understand that they are participating in their job a little bit from a distance? How can they turn that around and get more present and more into the, you know, into the day-to-day experience.

Speaker 1 11:51

Yeah, the first step is definitely talking about it with someone. That's the number one thing, right. You can't heal what's not revealed about it with someone. That's the number one thing, right. You can't heal what's not revealed. So you have to have that conversation with somebody, because something about that at least releases it from you in a way and kind of allows you to now look at it and address it. So that would be the first thing. I think talking to my friends was like a big game changer for me, because again it wasn't even something I realized I was struggling with, because again it wasn't even something I realized I was struggling with. And then the other thing would be shifting your perspective. So for me, my perspective was so focused on the what if this happens again, and that was kind of what everything was couched in. Any faltering step could lead me back to what happened before, and that was what I was so focused on. And I really had to just do a very quick perspective shift rather from fear and anxiety to gratitude I lose this job. I'm so grateful that I got this opportunity. I'm so grateful that I had friends and networks who were able to connect me at the right time. I'm so grateful that I've been able to use the gifts and the skills and the knowledge in my career to contribute to this really amazing company. I'm so grateful I really had to shift to gratitude and kind of choose that that I could be more present, more in the moment and honestly more joyful in the work that I was doing.

Speaker 1 13:27

I don't know if you've seen the movie that come out a couple weeks ago Inside Out 2. I mean when I watched it. There are so many moments in that movie when I'm like, is this kids, or is this therapy for us, the parents? Because there were so many themes in there that resonated so much and not to spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it, but there is a scene where you know it's about emotions and so there's a scene where an emotion tells another emotion. I'm going to just say it. I'm going to just say you have to go watch it. But this doesn't spoil anything. But there's a scene well, throughout the movie the emotions are kind of controlling and if anyone knows the series, that's the theme of it is like what the emotions going on in your mind and how they kind of control how we show up in the world.

Speaker 1 14:19

And there's this one being in this movie inside out, to where sadness turns to joy and for the first time in the franchise basically says riley, the main character, wants you. She's like basically saying that she's choosing joy, like there are all these other emotions that she could pull from that could control her, but she is actually choosing joy. And that's really what I had to do. I had to choose not to be controlled by my anger, not to be controlled by my fear, not to be controlled by my anxiety, but choose the perspective of gratitude and understand that, even if all of this falls apart, the same God who got me through the first storm will get me through this storm. I'm a woman of faith, so I have to include that in what got me through. But that was really it. I've gone through the storm and I came out alive and I'm here and if it happens again, I have faith that I'll make it through that too. So the first one was talking to someone.

Speaker 1 15:23

The second one was a perspective shift and then the third one is again like recognizing the value that you're bringing wherever you're at, because I think a part of us can feel shrunken by that experience, right, all of a sudden. It doesn't matter that you worked at the top companies. Now you feel inadequate. Now you don't feel as smart, now you don't feel like you really deserve to be in that room.

Speaker 1 15:47

Because of what you've experienced, I've felt that way. I was so timid and it's so not me, you know. Anyone who knows you knows it's not how I operate, but I had shrunken because of the experience. My confidence had shrunk, and so it's just recognizing the value that you're bringing. Take count of your wins as they happen and be really proud of yourself, like be proud for every win that you have, big or or small. You know, even if it's a tough conversation that you had with a colleague and that went well. Or coming up with a big idea for the next marketing campaign and that went well, right, being able to acknowledge and sit in and enjoy your room kind of helps to build back up that confidence that sometimes gets lost the build back up that confidence that sometimes gets lost.

Speaker 2 16:43

Yeah, there's so much in there that you said that resonates with me. I think you know we have all been at some point where we think about we tend to focus on the mistakes and the stuff that goes wrong as opposed to the stuff that goes right. And I think just in the second thing you said about shifting your focus, I think it is such a powerful thing and I love that you brought the movie inside too, because I do agree that that is such a great analogy of how you can really impact what you think. Yeah, and it's not. You can will yourself and I really do believe it's willing ourselves sometimes Will yourself to get into a different thought pattern and the thought pattern of gratitude versus a thought pattern of fear and anxiety. You need to put it out there so that it's almost there's a power that you take on when you put something out there, positive or negative, right, it's your recognition and it gives in some ways I agree with you I think it gives it less power over you when you actually talk about it.

Speaker 1 17:58

Yeah, I mean you.

Speaker 2 17:58

I think it gives it less power over you. Talk about it.

Speaker 1 18:01

Yeah, I mean, you have to sort of vocalize the viewpoint that you want to see, even if you don't see it. And you know, on the topic of mental health I know sometimes you can be like too, aliza Like, yes, there are chemical imbalances that do kind of dictate if you're more sad leaning versus happy leaning. Right, there are biological, scientific markers that do create that balance or imbalance in a person's body, and so I don't discredit that or I don't take anything from that. But I think for me, I knew that that's not where I was. I knew that for me it was a function of what had happened, it was not a chemical imbalance. So I want to make that distinction.

Speaker 1 18:47

As we're talking about mental health, I don't want people to think that we're sort of discounting whatever might be happening. You know that is more than that For me. It wasn't more than that. For me it was simply a reaction to what had happened, and so I had to sort of shift my perspective because it had been so muddied by what happened. And so, yeah, you have to sort of vocalize it. And for me, vocalizing it with my friends, vocalizing it to myself, even vocalizing it at work, you know, and my one-on-ones with my manager just like, hey, this happened and I'm really proud of this and all of those things. They do help to shift your perspective. And it doesn't happen overnight. It certainly didn't happen for me overnight, I think. Sometimes I still teeter between fear and gratitude, but at least for me I know the tools I can reach to kind of tweak when I need to and get back where I need to be. And that's the key is just having the tool.

Speaker 2 19:42

So, speaking of tools, can you share maybe a couple of things that you have found useful in terms of this process that you went?

Speaker 1 19:52

through.

Speaker 2 19:53

Like what if you are feeling that way? What is a good tool that you can kind of pull? And are there also any specific tools that are out there that you want people to be aware of, related to the process that you went through?

Speaker 1 20:11

specific tools that I can point to are kind of hard, because it was a lot of inner work and like interpersonal work with friends and family.

Speaker 1 20:20

But I will say that being vocal about it on LinkedIn, like using social media as a platform to speak no pun intended to to your brand, she Speaks but using LinkedIn as a platform to speak about these things, using whatever social media platform you are comfortable with to speak about these things, it really helps, because the key thing is realizing that you're not alone, right?

Speaker 1 20:48

The key thing is realizing that what you're experiencing is not necessarily unique to you, and so there are other folks who have been through it, are going through it, who can help you, and so you don't get access to that help without saying something, without speaking up. And I think oftentimes we as people can be very private about those things. Like I don't want people to know that I'm unemployed right now. I don't want people to know that I'm a business and it's like well, how are you going to get a job if no one knows you're looking? Even you know. So you have to be vocal, whether it's about the trauma you're going through or what you're looking for in terms of a job or your next big thing, and so, yeah, I would say, just vocalizing and using social media as a platform to speak up has really been great for me.

Speaker 2 21:33

Well, one thing that I also think is worth noting is the fact that you know, when you think about jobs and what's happening, that drives the layoff. Frequently it has a lot less to do with the individual person and more to do with what's going on more on a macro level, at a sort of higher level of the bid, and that's one thing to keep in mind. I want to say that because I think it's really important.

Speaker 2 22:00

But the second is that, even if it is specific to you, your role, whatever I think it's really important for people to keep in mind that just because they were not, it was not a great fit for them where they were, it doesn't mean that you cannot be a rock star somewhere else.

Speaker 2 22:25

And I think this was a hard lesson for me to learn when I was starting out in my career. And I would think to myself it doesn't, it's got to be me, it's always got to be me. No times where you are is not the right fit for you or the job you're in is not the right fit for you, but you. It's all a part of the process of kind of figuring out all right, what is something that makes sense for me, that is, that I can be good at and can be appreciated in how do I get myself that place? But the recognition that just because you were not successful in one company or one role does not mean you cannot be amazing someplace else. And I think it's really important that people think about that when they're thinking about well, okay, this didn't work out, what does this mean about me? The job I was in didn't work right.

Speaker 2 23:29

There's just so many factors that go into it.

Speaker 1 23:31

It's very often not at all about your performance. It's most times about revenue. It's most times about revenue. It's most times about change in direction, change in strategy, shareholder expectations. There's so many things, and for me, that's what it was about. It had nothing to do with me, it was more so about shareholder. It was more so about the business, right? And so, even though I knew it wasn't about me, even though I knew that it wasn't a personal decision to lay me off, the effects are still personal, right? Because now this affects how I can raise my family, this affects how I can plan for my future. This has very personal ramifications, even though it was a business decision. I want to say that piece, but I 100% agree. I think layoffs can make you start to reevaluate yourselves, your value, your performance, and most times, that's not what's being called into question.

Speaker 2 24:26

So, yeah, I'm glad that you called that out, because it is true, it's 100% true. So what do you think is the best piece of advice you receive during your process, your search process? That might be helpful for somebody listening.

Speaker 1 24:40

The best piece of advice would be to not focus on any one channel. Diversify. Spend time doing your personal branding on LinkedIn, making sure you're staying visible, making sure that people know that you're in the market, know what your expertise is, but then also spend time doing applications the grunt work of that piece as well. But then also spend time outside networking in real life, like don't do it all online. There's so much power in person-to-person connection. It is a full-time job looking for a job. It really is. You have to make sure that you're sort of diversifying your strategy, because you never know where it's going to come from. You have no idea, and if you spend all your time on Indeed, then you're totally missing out on other channels. I don't want to call that Indeed, but I'm just saying if you spend all your time on any sort of job searching site, you're really narrowing your scope and that's limiting your potential. So that would be, I think was the most most valuable thing.

Speaker 2 25:40

All right. Well, my last question for you what do you wish you could tell the younger Michelle, who is just getting started in her career?

Speaker 1 25:49

That your career is not going to be linear, but that's okay. Don't get stuck in the how you're going to get. Wherever you're going to get, follow the thing that got you in the business in the first place and started chasing money.

Speaker 1 26:05

Started chasing a position, started chasing a promotion and because of that I made so many mistakes in my career, so many mistakes. Because of that, I made so many mistakes in my career, so many mistakes. But just remembering that it's stay true to what got you in it and stay connected to the fact that it's not going to be linear. But that's okay.

Speaker 2 26:23

Yeah, great advice. Thank you so much for spending this time with us. I am grateful for your transparency and the desire to be of service to other people who maybe are going through the same experience and sharing your insights, so thank you for doing this today. Thank you, thank you and I hope it was helpful to anyone.